Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
I haven't commented previously on this issue, and, note, I haven't quoted anyone below. But, I think this whole debate is a tempest in a teapot (or a rant in search of topic). Just what is the issue here? Dan Shafer, a hero to many X-Talkers, including me, is concerned that RR is spreading itself too thin, supporting both DreamCard (allegedly for ``Inventive users''---hobbyists by any other name) and Revolution (allegedly for ``Professional Developers'', ignoring the different pricing options). He has argued that RR can't do both, citing the history of computing and the litany of failed software companies attempting to do what he claims RR is doing. I don't question his facts, or even his argument; but I do question the alleged parallel of RR with that history. As an aside, let it be known that I have the ``maxed-out'' license--- the equivalent of what I had with Metacard (yes, I have been with MC/ RR for quite some time), so if RR went the totally ``professional route'' I would be unaffected in that sense. But that would be a big mistake. Dreamcard *IS* the replacement for hypercard for all but a few (I am a huge Dreamcard supporter---see the RR website for my endorsement). How many hypercard users ever produced stand-alones (``apps'' in the parlance)? I know I never did (just as I never produce standalones---apps---in MC/RR). Tiny stacks is what we produced, and still do. Dreamcard is brilliant just because we can continue to do just that. Better, those to whom we provide our stacks need not even have a copy of Dreamcard---they can just download the Dreamcard player to use our stacks. It is the continuation of a dream (yes!) that was Steved at Apple, but now applies to virtually all operating systems. THAT is utterly brilliant! I know Dan appreciates this brilliance; he is just concerned that any resources devoted to Dreamcard are extracted from MC/RR as a professional development environment. I would agree, except that I think he has mischaracterised the distinction between Dreamcard and MC/RR. Dreamcard is not some lesser development environment from MC/ RR, just different. Personally, I like producing full-blown apps in 40K that I can send to colleagues to use. These apps include psychology experiments, novel statistical analyses, neural nets, and so on. For that purpose, there is no reason that Dreamcard should be different from MC/RR. Indeed, as Dreamcard is, in effect, a free (for RR) spin-off from app-producing MC/RR, ANY Dreamcard sales are pure gravy. My point? Dreamcard users are not any less ``professional'' than those for whom compiled ``apps'' are the raison d'etre. We need and use everything the alleged professionals also use. So, there is no difference in support or resources. RR should continue to develop Revolution as they have been doing, responding to every complaint the ``professionals'' demand needs correction: but those professionals are as much in the Dreamcard contingent as they are in the ``I paid maximum dinero, I demand satisfaction'' contingent. The difference is, completely and only, that Dreamcard programmers don't need compiled apps of their creations. To the extent that such compilation concerns are at issue, RR should devote resources to addressing them. If they are engine issues, we all benefit, so I am all for it! Kevin et al. at RR (brilliant people all, obviously) have recognised this, and have done the brilliant thing. In case you missed it: I can't emphasise enough just how brilliant for the computing community the Dreamcard move is: the dream of hypercard made available to virtually all, but based on an expensive engine for those of us that need it *for other purposes*. Do I mind indirectly funding all those Dreamcard users? Nope, as it is, as I noted, pure gravy for RR. So, just to drive the point home: Dreamcard is brilliant! Pass it around. And, don't deprecate it by some false amateur vs. ``professional'' distinction. -- Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html -Dr. John R. Vokey ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Dan sez... I would have agreed until the last two revs. I am not personally acquainted with the situation, but several friends of mine who teach and study multimedia development at our local university have complained bitterly to me in the past year about how MM has made development in Flash all but inaccessible to folks who don't grok scripting. I'm not sure how they've managed to do this -- or if it's just a perception -- but it's hurt them in this university curriculum. Chipp Dan, FWIW, I concur. IDT (Instructional Design Technology) degree programs, from what I know, have relied heavily on MM programs (first Director, then increasingly Flash on presumption of Director's imploding doom). From what I have read and observed, many of these programs initially used Hypercard but shifted to Director Flash to accomodate PC-using students (ultimately the clear majority). Long before I obtained such a degree, I recall reading discussions (largely from the HC list) and initiated some private ones on the subject, and they all supported what you have said, namely, that when Hypercard was the authoring software used, these individuals in the degree programs were able to learn it suffficiently to continue using it beyond the requirements of their degree program (that is to say, voluntarily). However, I have yet to meet a single individual who has done likewise with Director or Flash. Not one. Including me. The learning curve for those two products is markedly steeper: take a look at your 'average' _Director for Dummies_ sort of book and you'll see how the 'inventive user' is catastrophically-adrift in a sea of C-like dot syntax that goes on forever and is incomprehensible (add to that the, until previously, foreign concept of a timeline-based interface for this audience); Flash's ActionScript (or whatever it's called these days) isn't a whole lot different, being based, I think, heavily on JavaScript meant to look more like a Java/C-lite than a 'real' x-Talk. They are not inherently 'inventive user-friendly'. And, hence, you end up with the graduates of such degree programs who go on to teach it themselves not being very good teachers of it. And thus the cycle continues. OTOH, that group is now investigating Rev, so all is not lost! --I only wish CSUF were one of them... :-( Judy ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
But it's not necessarily 'casting pearls before swine' ... (or, is it???) Judy On Sat, 26 Nov 2005, Richard Gaskin wrote: Tarting it all over town for just $99 gives too much away. ;) ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Perhaps the market was already saturated for this type of tool in that given environment? I regret that I didn't have a chance to ever work with LiveMotion (was there a Mac version available??? I seem to recall seeing a box in the department's SysAdmin's office, but when I inquired it was PC-only and I don't think even my PC-using colleage ever did anything with it, which, of course, has n o bearing on the usefullness of it). Judy On Sat, 26 Nov 2005, Richard Gaskin wrote: And yet while those inventive users suffer, there were never enough of them to keep Adobe LiveMotion alive. As Scott Rossi can attest and I'll toss in a hearty Amen!, LiveMotion was truly Flash for the rest of us. Everyone who ever spent more than 20 minutes with both agreed that LiveMotion was far more accessible. Borrowing the best of After Effects' award-winning timeline, LiveMotion made simple and immediate sense out of so many things that were insanely arcane in Flash. It didn't offer the full range of dynamic programming capabilities as Flash had, but LiveMotion made short work of animations and basic interactivity, certainly enough to handle much of what Flash is commonly used for. But at the end of the day, Adobe couldn't find enough users who didn't prefer the more professionally-oriented Flash to justify keeping LiveMotion alive. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
No, I wasn't thinking of MS. It was Borland. I Have Learning Editions of theirs. Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank- Saturday, November 26, 2005, 7:13:30 PM, you wrote: I wasn't referring to the free and old C++ available. Recently, they had Learning Editions of All their current development tools - Delphi, C++, Kylix, Java. Well, let's see... C++ Builder *30-day trial* version 6 is dated March 2002 The Kylix *trial* versions are dated from mid-2002 (version 3) The JBuilder versions are current but only run for 30 days Delphi Personal is not downloadable but is available through select publications, as is Borland C++ Builder Personal. ...or you can purchase Delphi starting at $1090 on up to $3490. C++ Builder lists for $927 (pro) and $2117 (enterprise) Entry level JBuilder is $499 Maybe you were thinking of Microsoft? They offered a Learning Edition of VB at the student pricing of $50. Then end-of-lifed the product. Mind you, I like Borland's compilers. But the Turbo Pascal days, or even the Turbo C days, are behind them now. -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On Nov 27, 2005, at 2:42 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: But at the end of the day, Adobe couldn't find enough users who didn't prefer the more professionally-oriented Flash to justify keeping LiveMotion alive. Products that have done well from the low end (which may mean, not that they're still around but that they've gained legendary status in memory -- you can take that to the bank, can't you? . . .) may not have done it by attracting people who already knew that they wanted to do what the product did (I must make a Flash thingie! but I'm stingy!). Attracting casuals off the street, instead. A lot of people tried programming for the first time because of Borland Pascal, DeSmet C, HyperCard . . . They weren't choosing between one product and another (e.g., a pro and a lite version). I imagine a certain number of the pros on this list began that way. Charles Hartman ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Pricing / entry cost for this tool
2 cents: In an era where, if I wanted to, I could easily spend $5 on a cup of coffee, an IDE such as Dreamcard at $100 seems very reasonable. If you like what it can do, then spend more for the Studio version, etc. I've no problem with the pricing as it stands in US dollars. I don't know if the same carries over into relative cost in other countries. Kurt ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Pricing / entry cost for this tool
In BULGARIA, coffee cost anywhere between 10 - 30 cents a cup: however the average family income (i.e. Mum and Dad working) come to about $100. The average family are unable to save. However, this is wandering seriously OT. Capitalism (a loose-fitting sort of economic something that Bulgarians, along with a lot of other East Europeans, thought was a better bet than Communism) does not take prisoners, nor does it hand out free candy. Therefore the discussion about pricing of Runtime Revolution should not take the price of coffee in Bulgaria into account. For nations who have not got their act together - And Bulgaria is a serious case in point of a nation of asset-srippers who have wasted just about every chance that was presented to them by the collapse of Communism - there is the Free version of RR for Linux. I have already introduced a few students at the technical University to RR-Linux and flung Ubuntu disks at them. It is perfectly possible to make standalones for all supported platforms using the RR-Linux 2.2.1 underwritten by Novell: I have no sympathy there. Ultimately, however much RR decide to charge for their product rest with them. At least, unlike many other RADs, there is a FREE version. What is more to the point should be a discussion as to how to pursuade citizens of the nations that sponge, nations that have dug their own holes, and so forth, to get into RR and learn how to use it, and contribute via this list and the other normal outlets. If a drug-dealer gets kids hooked on FREE narcotics then he can charge what he likes: it is an unpleasant parallel - but not entirely inaccurate. Just at present I'm lurking in dark alley-ways pushing Ubuntu disks - what are you pushing? sincerely, Richmond __ See Mathewson's software at: http://members.maclaunch.com/richmond/default.html ___ --- The Think Different Store http://www.thinkdifferentstore.com/ For All Your Mac Gear --- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Yes, I have an OS9 version right here... sqb I regret that I didn't have a chance to ever work with LiveMotion (was there a Mac version available??? I seem to recall seeing a box in the Judy -- stephen barncard s a n f r a n c i s c o - - - - - - - - - - - - ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Without telling me how much each segment earns, it can only be misleading to tell me what fraction of the taxes they pay. What is the source of your information? Does it include the necessary detail of incomes? I'm guessing it doesn't. At 10:46 PM -0600 26/11/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At the moment, in your country and mine, the very wealthy pay very little tax. The top 1% earners in the US pay 34% of the taxes. The top 5% earners in the US pay 54% of the taxes. The top 50% earners in the US pay 97% of the taxes. If a wealthy person here is not paying much tax, it means they are likely going to not be wealthy much longer. Dennis -- Michael J. Lew Senior Lecturer Department of Pharmacology The University of Melbourne Parkville 3010 Victoria Australia Phone +613 8344 8304 ** New email address: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank. Can you give us an example or two of where this pricing is common among development tools? I see feature-crippled and time-limited evaluation licensing all the time, but I can't honestly think of a single development tool that has a free learning edition that you upgrade to so you can deploy apps. Latest release of CodeWarrior has gone that route: their product is free for hobbysts and one buys it to distribute products. But I see this as their exit strategy. Robert ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank- Sunday, November 27, 2005, 4:34:17 AM, you wrote: No, I wasn't thinking of MS. It was Borland. I Have Learning Editions of theirs. Interesting. They don't seem to be available from their website, and Google searches don't come up with anything. (I didn't really think you had MS in mind...) So what sorts of limitations do the Learning Editions set up for you that my full versions would let me do? I take it that you can still compile and create apps that don't require the IDE to run? Are you somehow prevented from distributing these apps? And how much did you have to pay for these versions? -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
The efficiency of the PC (oops! er, Mac) is practically without precedent since the days of the first chipped-flint hand axe, so it is hard to get a handle on what something like Revolution is worth. It feels to me that it is worth at least as much as the modest computer on which I run it. Together, the package can be had for under a grand and - given talent and luck - can be used to support a family. In the old days, a milk cow was the comparable capital investment, today perhaps a studio-quality musical instrument. I can't afford the MacroMedia packages, but I think they are more than worth it for someone like my son-in-law, who makes a very good living with them. Revolution is the Japanese motorcycle of development tools. I look out my window at the guys in pickup trucks trying to make a living plowing snow and pounding nails. A thousand bucks to set up your own contracting business? You gotta be kidding! ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
From my reading of what Frank wrote it wasn't a case of charging on a delivery basis but allowing a cheaper entry to DreamCard, one that didn't allow delivery. ie for $20 you can have DreamCard but whatever you create can only run in your copy of DreamCard, if you want to deploy to other DreamCard users you'll need the $99 version This to me would be like the 'Extended' evaluation mentioned for RealBasic, but without the hassle of applying for an extension, and no need to actually monitoring such extendsions. Get a free 30 day trial, buy a $20 use for personal use as long as you like, or start deploying to others for as little as $99. I am a hobbiest and from my perspective I am thankful Runrev are trying to cater to both ends of the market. I have been critical of Runrev's pricing strategy before and have not agreed with it, but they seem to be doing a good job because I have paid for license renewals over the years and have never let my license lapse. I must stress though that I have done so in small steps, and to me this is the key to Runrev extracting more and more money out of me. I started out free, went to Express, then DreamCard, and now Studio, which I have renewed. If Rev was ala ParcSystem, Enterprise option only, they'd have none of my money. They are currently extracting more money out of me than a Digitalk strategy because I have been basically evaluating Rev for the last 4 years, and when I've discovered a 'new' feature that I'd like to take advantage of, but can't because it is in a 'higher' edition, I've eventually concluded that I need to forked over the money. As far as Digitalk vs ParcPlace Systems, my quick Google search came up with: *ParcPlace-Digitalk Merger into ObjectShare* ParcPlace and Digitalk merge creating ObjectShare. Company implodes soon after. This appears to have occurred some time around 1984, although the time line didn't seem to clear. Now I have no clue, but maybe the problem was that Digitalk was too focused on the cheap end of the market and ParcPlace on the professional end of the market and the time came when each market was too small for either to survive. By the time they realized they needed to broaden their horizons, ie create a path for a hobbiest to get into smallTalk, then advance to an intermeiate user, and then possibly on to a professional, it was too late. I'm wondering if Dan has a feel for how many people got into scripting because of the FREE HyperCard that came with your Mac back in the late 80's. Sure you eventually had to buy the later editions (2.1 was free if I can remember, but after that if you wanted to create stacks you needed to buy the Developer Tool - about U$120 I think). I still remember the MUG I belonged too suddenly sending out floppies with public domain stacks. Then it was multiple floppies. There were stacks everywhere. I am still amazed at how many HyperCard refugees I see seeking a new life here. I thought I was slow at coming to grips with the fact that HyperCard is dead, but obviously some are still applying CPR;-) How many people got hooked on the Free HyperCard, discovered that they could do something useful with it, and then convinced themselves that they needed to buy the Developer Pack so they could take advantage of the larger feature set of the later editions. How many people made a living out of HyperCard based on their free introduction (not a 30 day trial, but unlimited use free). To conclude, if Runrev doesn't want to end up like Digitalk or ParcSystem then they obviously need a continually growing user base. To do that you can either convert them (professionals who are using a different IDE), create them (hobbiest, intermediate, professional), or better yet, do both. I tend towards the 'do both'. An expanded user base would have disadvantages, like I'd never be able to read all the posts on this list, but on the other hand I am occasionally concerned that this list appears to be a '3 ringed circus' - depending on the problem I can usually guess who will provide an answer. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
I didn't mean charging per-copy distribution fees. I completely agree those schemes are not well received. All I meant was: - 0 to develop inside the IDE, without the ability to deploy anything - X to deploy anything, where X is the same number whether you deploy 1 or a million apps, to one customer or a million customers. This type of Learning Edition pricing is actually common - and well received. Dan Shafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank Not one major development tool has ever succeeded charging for runtime delivery. Not one. You buy a C++ compiler, you don't pay the compiler maker for each copy of your app. Companies that have tried runtime royalty deals over the years -- and there have been many, with a staggering array of ideas for the best way to structure the fees -- have abandoned their plan or gone out of business or both. And with so many free (open source and otherwise) compilers and IDEs out there, it would be suicide for anyone to try to charge per-copy distribution fees in today's market. On Nov 25, 2005, at 7:21 PM, Frank R wrote: But, the door opens to Much Greater revenue when you have scenarios like - 0$ to use the IDE idefinitely, and $X when you deploy your applications. You catch more long term fish that way. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Kay - well said - and, yes, you were the only one who Got the pricing I was referring to with: ie for $20 you can have DreamCard but whatever you create can only run in your copy of DreamCard, if you want to deploy to other DreamCard users you'll need the $99 version Kay C Lan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From my reading of what Frank wrote it wasn't a case of charging on a delivery basis but allowing a cheaper entry to DreamCard, one that didn't allow delivery. ie for $20 you can have DreamCard but whatever you create can only run in your copy of DreamCard, if you want to deploy to other DreamCard users you'll need the $99 version This to me would be like the 'Extended' evaluation mentioned for RealBasic, but without the hassle of applying for an extension, and no need to actually monitoring such extendsions. Get a free 30 day trial, buy a $20 use for personal use as long as you like, or start deploying to others for as little as $99. I am a hobbiest and from my perspective I am thankful Runrev are trying to cater to both ends of the market. I have been critical of Runrev's pricing strategy before and have not agreed with it, but they seem to be doing a good job because I have paid for license renewals over the years and have never let my license lapse. I must stress though that I have done so in small steps, and to me this is the key to Runrev extracting more and more money out of me. I started out free, went to Express, then DreamCard, and now Studio, which I have renewed. If Rev was ala ParcSystem, Enterprise option only, they'd have none of my money. They are currently extracting more money out of me than a Digitalk strategy because I have been basically evaluating Rev for the last 4 years, and when I've discovered a 'new' feature that I'd like to take advantage of, but can't because it is in a 'higher' edition, I've eventually concluded that I need to forked over the money. As far as Digitalk vs ParcPlace Systems, my quick Google search came up with: *ParcPlace-Digitalk Merger into ObjectShare* ParcPlace and Digitalk merge creating ObjectShare. Company implodes soon after. This appears to have occurred some time around 1984, although the time line didn't seem to clear. Now I have no clue, but maybe the problem was that Digitalk was too focused on the cheap end of the market and ParcPlace on the professional end of the market and the time came when each market was too small for either to survive. By the time they realized they needed to broaden their horizons, ie create a path for a hobbiest to get into smallTalk, then advance to an intermeiate user, and then possibly on to a professional, it was too late. I'm wondering if Dan has a feel for how many people got into scripting because of the FREE HyperCard that came with your Mac back in the late 80's. Sure you eventually had to buy the later editions (2.1 was free if I can remember, but after that if you wanted to create stacks you needed to buy the Developer Tool - about U$120 I think). I still remember the MUG I belonged too suddenly sending out floppies with public domain stacks. Then it was multiple floppies. There were stacks everywhere. I am still amazed at how many HyperCard refugees I see seeking a new life here. I thought I was slow at coming to grips with the fact that HyperCard is dead, but obviously some are still applying CPR;-) How many people got hooked on the Free HyperCard, discovered that they could do something useful with it, and then convinced themselves that they needed to buy the Developer Pack so they could take advantage of the larger feature set of the later editions. How many people made a living out of HyperCard based on their free introduction (not a 30 day trial, but unlimited use free). To conclude, if Runrev doesn't want to end up like Digitalk or ParcSystem then they obviously need a continually growing user base. To do that you can either convert them (professionals who are using a different IDE), create them (hobbiest, intermediate, professional), or better yet, do both. I tend towards the 'do both'. An expanded user base would have disadvantages, like I'd never be able to read all the posts on this list, but on the other hand I am occasionally concerned that this list appears to be a '3 ringed circus' - depending on the problem I can usually guess who will provide an answer. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
David Coker wrote: Revolution already *is* that later version with the advanced features. ;) I think most of the users consider Revolution to be Enterprise quality and is up to virtually any task that you can throw in it's direction. I know I do. Quick research: DreamCard: United States Dollars = 99.00 USD United Kingdom Pounds = 57.71 GBP Revolution: United States Dollars = 299.00 USD United Kingdom Pounds = 174.29 GBP That's not quite the actual pricing RunRev use. (I think you calculated the UK - GBP prices by currency conversion - obvious but not correct :-). The pricing is in fact: Dreamcard in the US: USD 99 rest of the world : GBP 69 or local equivalent Rev Studio in the US : USD 299 rest of the world : GBP 199 or local equivalent Not a huge difference today (though it was a bigger difference a year ago when the exchange rate was over 1.9) - but worth explaining for the sake of those who've just bought at the higher, actual price. For what it's worth (i.e. nothing) I think Rev's pricing is quite low - the only thing I think is too expensive is the per-platform add-on for Studio. I'd like to see it cost the same as a Dreamcard license. I can't see the support etc. costs for a second platform being high enough to require a cost of 2/3 of the initial cost. And a more aggressive price for additional platforms would make it unnecessary to consider using Studio on your main platform and Dreamcard on any secondary platform. -- Alex Tweedly http://www.tweedly.net -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.8/183 - Release Date: 25/11/2005 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Before I start my complaint about pricing, let me at least say that I applaud the company for having a $99 price point for Dreamcard. It at least opens the doors for more people to explore this intriguing tool. On the other hand, the pricing needs to go even further. In my 20 years in the world of software, I can't tell you how many companies I have observed shoot themselves in the foot by having a great product but pricing it out of reach for the masses. The pricing that has Built companies has been - price it low to draw people in, get the revenue later with advanced features and with deployment licensing costs. I would rather they charged twice as much but fixed all remaining IDE bugs and produce fixes quickly for other bugs when they come up. Turbo Pascal was sold in huge quantities because it was a $49 product that many could afford. The same was true with the Initial pricing of many MS products. This company should offer DreamCard free - but, for free, Without the ability to deploy an app. The apps could only be run inside the IDE. This would give more people more than 30 days to race through the product, and it would defer collecting revenue until someone actually baked something of Value - that could be sold. At that point, the programmer has an easy time paying the bucks for a development license. I'm going to finish evaluating this, and I'm going to start my project, but I won't be done in 30 days, and my journey will probably end there. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I can't afford to lay out for tools anymore until I Know I'm going to get across the finish line with something of value to sell. This product needs to shoot for Volume. That means - further aggressive pricing. Before they do that they need to get all the bugs out of it, IMO, if they went for massive volume now, the product would not get a very good reception. All the Best Dave ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
I'm a high school teacher and support my family single-income-style. I pay for my software/hardware out of pocket [not even tax credit.] I'm also the world's cheapest man; to wit we have had marital difficulties because I will not let love stand in the way of conserving cash. The background is to let you know you can buy this software and sleep well because the world's cheapest man did it without batting an eye. He even upgraded once or twice without wincing [but he did wait until the last minute]. Now the world's cheapest man can justify his extravagence to his wife because one or two of his creations have brought in enough cash to compensate it. But the real reason you will put that money down is because this product will deliver what you need in the least painful way. Don't need to declare variables as strings or integers. Don't need to use all those dots. You can change the code ON THE FLY and ON ANY PLATFORM. Most of all, the software thinks like a human thinks. e.g. Want the time of day? - put the time Want the word your user has clicked? - put the clicktext Want the first word that pops into my head? - put the first word in TomsHead. [assuming it's a valid container!] Want to know what I think? -ask What do you think with Rev's a great buy. ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Oh, Happy Day! Judy On Fri, 25 Nov 2005, Ken Ray wrote: This was the same philosophy espoused by Scott Raney, when he was selling MetaCard for $999 and nothing else... of course, that was until RunRev picked it up... :-) ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:12 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Personally, I think Rev is priced too low. Sh... don't talk that too loud, I am trying to sum some money to buy a new license and pounds are expensive ;-) Cheers andre ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
I am one of those free HC to paid HC to paid SC crossgrade to paid Rev enterprise crossgrade to paid Studio downgrade to paid DC to paid DC upgrade. My gosh, I have owned one of every license! Personal circumstances kept me from ever using the first Enterprise license, and I would never have purchased it for $1K. I first purchased it at $300 with an early SC crossgrade promotion. I dare say that I would never have gotten going with RR if they had not changed their pricing policy. I think they have the right basic set of products/prices now. A bit of tweaking might make a few more people happy. If someone can not afford even the $100 for DC, let them use the $1K MC that is now free, then buy DC or studio if they want the latest IDE and features. The price of DC is right. The price of Studio is right. The price of Enterprise is right. Having the full spectrum is right. Get a great hobby product with little personalized support from RR for low cost --on par with the entry level consumer products of major companies like Adobe. Want expensive professional support, pay for a professional license. Totally fair! I am a happy camper, and very happy with RR product policy. However, I must point out that without this list RR would likely die. This list is the life blood that makes it possible for them to sell any cost product without impossible support problems. Value of this list --Priceless! I don't want this to be taken the wrong way (it is not meant to slight any of the truly appreciated professionals on this list), but if I were a professional programmer that was happy to pay $1K initially and upgrade my support every year (because it saved me money in my business), I would frown on RR offering a lower cost version to hobbyists. My reasons would be selfish --I don't want RR to get distracted with another market segment and possibly lesson their focus and support of my needs, or worse go out of business because they misjudged the other market. However, I don't think this is the likely case. I think that they are more likely to stay in business with the current model --it is the model being used by the most successful companies today. They are growing (I assume) slowly as the product matures. At some point I expect this model is going to propel them forward into a larger company that can offer better general support and product bug fixes (I think bugs cost more to fix than adding minor new features), while continuing to support the professionals needs. I expect to continue upgrading my DC every year and perhaps upgrade my Studio if I find I need to make a stand alone (which I have never needed to do). My needs are met by DC for now, but I want to support RR so that they continue to fix bugs and add useful features. My two cents. Dennis On Nov 26, 2005, at 5:03 AM, Kay C Lan wrote: I am a hobbiest and from my perspective I am thankful Runrev are trying to cater to both ends of the market. I have been critical of Runrev's pricing strategy before and have not agreed with it, but they seem to be doing a good job because I have paid for license renewals over the years and have never let my license lapse. I must stress though that I have done so in small steps, and to me this is the key to Runrev extracting more and more money out of me. I started out free, went to Express, then DreamCard, and now Studio, which I have renewed. If Rev was ala ParcSystem, Enterprise option only, they'd have none of my money. They are currently extracting more money out of me than a Digitalk strategy because I have been basically evaluating Rev for the last 4 years, and when I've discovered a 'new' feature that I'd like to take advantage of, but can't because it is in a 'higher' edition, I've eventually concluded that I need to forked over the money... I'm wondering if Dan has a feel for how many people got into scripting because of the FREE HyperCard that came with your Mac back in the late 80's. Sure you eventually had to buy the later editions (2.1 was free if I can remember, but after that if you wanted to create stacks you needed to buy the Developer Tool - about U$120 I think). I still remember the MUG I belonged too suddenly sending out floppies with public domain stacks. Then it was multiple floppies. There were stacks everywhere. I am still amazed at how many HyperCard refugees I see seeking a new life here. I thought I was slow at coming to grips with the fact that HyperCard is dead, but obviously some are still applying CPR;-) How many people got hooked on the Free HyperCard, discovered that they could do something useful with it, and then convinced themselves that they needed to buy the Developer Pack so they could take advantage of the larger feature set of the later editions. How many people made a living out of HyperCard based on their free introduction (not a 30
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On Nov 25, 2005, at 11:12 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: RealBASIC Standard $99 RealBASIC Pro $399 Macromedia Flash: $699 Macromedia Director: $1,199 (per platform) I decided a while back not to get involved with tool politics in this forum (it has caused ill-will in the past), but just to be fair – the latest versions of Macromedia Director can compile applications for both platforms it supports (Mac Windows) with a single platform license, much the way Flash, and RealBasic are listed above. -- Troy RPSystems, Ltd. http://www.rpsystems.net ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Well-said, Preston! I'm adding this to my quotation list for my positive reminders of why I do what I do. On Nov 26, 2005, at 12:04 AM, Preston Shea wrote: A thousand bucks to set up your own contracting business? You gotta be kidding! ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
I honestly do not believe that a single small company -- and RunRev is small -- can do a great job of serving both the professional programming market and the hobbyist/Inventive User market. The needs, expectations, demands, support requirements, feature sets, documentation needs, training level and a host of other factors are just too vastly different between them. I've been racking my brain the last 48 hours and I cannot come up with a single development tool company that has succeeded at doing this since Borland's very early days. I'd be delighted if someone could point me to a real exception to that rule, but absent that, I maintain my position. RunRev needs to decide whether it's going to try to get professional coders to switch to Rev or adopt it as a RAD or alternative tool, or go after the untapped market potential of the Inventive User. Until it makes that decision and then permeates the company and its policies with it, it will have difficulty being as successful as it can. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank. Can you give us an example or two of where this pricing is common among development tools? I see feature-crippled and time-limited evaluation licensing all the time, but I can't honestly think of a single development tool that has a free learning edition that you upgrade to so you can deploy apps. Also, with an environment like Rev, the distinction between deploy as a standalone and deploy as a stack is badly blurred by the fact that: (a) anyone with a RunRev tool (and in your scenario that would include anyone who wanted to download it) can run any stack anyone else creates, at least conceptually; and (b) there are at least two free players available that would allow the owner of a 0-cost learning edition to distribute (and presumably therefore sell) products that run in either the IDE or the players without paying a dime for the tool. That is a good way to sink the tool company. On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:35 AM, Frank R wrote: This type of Learning Edition pricing is actually common - and well received. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank... Supplementing my last post with a response to this On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:41 AM, Frank R wrote: ie for $20 you can have DreamCard but whatever you create can only run in your copy of DreamCard, if you want to deploy to other DreamCard users you'll need the $99 version This would require RunRev to institute another level of copy protection or code protection so that something I write in my copy of Dreamcard wouldn't run in either the free player or in someone else's Dreamcard environment. All so that a few people who don't want to part with a hundred bucks can learn the tool? Nope. Has to be a more economically efficient and sustainable way to accomplish what you want. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
There's no such thing as bug-free software. And the company has recently begun doing a fantastic job of squashing bugs, so they get the message that they need to be more bug-free. On Nov 26, 2005, at 4:03 AM, David Burgun wrote: Before they do that they need to get all the bugs out of it, ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On 26 Nov 2005, at 21:01, Dan Shafer wrote: I've been racking my brain the last 48 hours and I cannot come up with a single development tool company that has succeeded at doing this since Borland's very early days. I'd be delighted if someone could point me to a real exception to that rule, but absent that, I maintain my position. RunRev needs to decide whether it's going to try to get professional coders to switch to Rev or adopt it as a RAD or alternative tool, or go after the untapped market potential of the Inventive User. Until it makes that decision and then permeates the company and its policies with it, it will have difficulty being as successful as it can. I'd second that. What I would love to see is RunRev let go substantially of the professional coders end of the market, by adopting an innovative open content strategy, and reaping the benefits of being able to package the features developed in the professional market for the Inventive User (nice term). Scott Raney tried to do it the other way round - licensing the core engine / code to developers who could then produce IDE's like RunRev have done. I think this was a good idea too - but the time was not quite right. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Dennis A well-thought-out and appreciated post. But, as with others who have offered this viewpoint, I am compelled to ask you to provide even one example of a development tool company following the strategy you describe below that you say is being used by the most successful companies today. And I'll expand on that a bit. Not only can I not think of a single *development tool* company following the strategy of trying to serve two markets with a single product, I can't even come up with a single successful software company doing that. When I think of successful software companies in the desktop universe, I think of: Microsoft Adobe Macromedia (about to be swallowed by Adobe if that hasn't been finalized yet) Apple (partly) Real Maybe Oracle (which is a dev tools vendor in large part, but not much on the desktop) Adobe doesn't have a low-cost entry version of Acrobat or inDesign. A trial version, yes, but when it expires you pay through the nose to keep using it. Same with Macromedia. Apple supports low- and high-end users in a couple of its strategic markets, but with two separate products, not a low-cost version of the high-priced one. Real has a free player but if you want to start creating Real media streams you're gonna pay a bundle. So where are these software companies that are following this two- market strategy successfully? To the contrary, I think the secret to a successful company -- in any sphere -- is focus. Do what you do well and let others do the stuff you don't do well. If RunRev had a couple hundred people, *maybe* they could figure out how to serve both markets with great success. Short of that, I am unconvinced. On Nov 26, 2005, at 8:52 AM, Dennis Brown wrote: I think that they are more likely to stay in business with the current model --it is the model being used by the most successful companies today. They are growing (I assume) slowly as the product matures. At some point I expect this model is going to propel them forward into a larger company that can offer better general support and product bug fixes (I think bugs cost more to fix than adding minor new features), while continuing to support the professionals needs. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Dan, this is an innocent question, not intended to provoke or contradict, but where do you think Rev is currently falling down with regard to either pro developers or inventive users? As a hobbyist/inventive user (an excellent phrase, btw), I feel very well served by Rev, though perhaps others may not. Mark On 26 Nov 2005, at 20:01, Dan Shafer wrote: I honestly do not believe that a single small company -- and RunRev is small -- can do a great job of serving both the professional programming market and the hobbyist/Inventive User market. The needs, expectations, demands, support requirements, feature sets, documentation needs, training level and a host of other factors are just too vastly different between them. I've been racking my brain the last 48 hours and I cannot come up with a single development tool company that has succeeded at doing this since Borland's very early days. I'd be delighted if someone could point me to a real exception to that rule, but absent that, I maintain my position. RunRev needs to decide whether it's going to try to get professional coders to switch to Rev or adopt it as a RAD or alternative tool, or go after the untapped market potential of the Inventive User. Until it makes that decision and then permeates the company and its policies with it, it will have difficulty being as successful as it can. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Dan Shafer wrote: Not only can I not think of a single *development tool* company following the strategy of trying to serve two markets with a single product, I can't even come up with a single successful software company doing that. Agreed 100%. If a tool has any potential to appeal to pros, I believe there's sufficient evidence to support the view that focusing on the pro market will ultimately benefit both pros and hobbyists more than focusing on the latter. Pros need pro tools, and even hobbysts aspire to professional-looking results. A strategy that appeals to the high end will appeal to both. If a company is large enough to fully invest the necessary resources for two completely different markets (large enough to operate effectively as two separate companies), a two-pronged approach may have merit. But in our world with inherent limitations, that's a tough thing to do. Consider DreamCard: to fulfill its mission it really needs a very different UI from Rev, but as it is it's essentially the same product without the standalone builder. DreamCard's been around for years -- if there are plans to further differentiate it history evidently supports the view that resources are insufficient to pull that off. To the degree this is a result of focusing on the pro product maybe that's not so bad. My perspective is admittedly skewed, being dependent on the pro product to manage the three businesses in which I'm CTO: I'd hate to see any slowdown of bug fixes or feature enhancements in the engine to make a prettier entry-level tool. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On 26 Nov 2005, at 22:03, Mark Smith wrote: Dan, this is an innocent question, not intended to provoke or contradict, but where do you think Rev is currently falling down with regard to either pro developers or inventive users? Hard one to answer as RunRev do do a VERY good job at trying to serve both ends of the market - no better deal fi you cater for both cross platform. However from my personal perspective I'd note the following: 1) Lack of the large number of professional grade commercial plugins or open source libraries available compared to other platforms (this seems to be changing slowly). 2) Slowly deteriorating *nix support (hopefully to be remedied soon). 3) Lack of open source strategy - not helping with contracts or to fix 2) and 3) above. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
David Bovill wrote: 1) Lack of the large number of professional grade commercial plugins or open source libraries available compared to other platforms (this seems to be changing slowly). They're out there, just poorly cataloged. RunRev currently only lists components they resell, and the DMOZ index contains only a slender subset of what's available: http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Transcript/ 2) Slowly deteriorating *nix support (hopefully to be remedied soon). Relative to ROI, I can't argue with them there. How many folks on this list are using IRIX? 3) Lack of open source strategy - not helping with contracts or to fix 2) and 3) above. I hope I never see the day when RunRev takes resources away from product development to start hiring lawyers to do legal consulting. RunRev's license seems very clear to me, and I don't expect them to assist me with negotiating my own contracts with my clients. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
David Bovill wrote: What I would love to see is RunRev let go substantially of the professional coders end of the market, by adopting an innovative open content strategy Letting go of users able and willing to pay top dollar to pursue a customer self-qualified as less willing to pay seems risky at best. I would wholeheartedly support a move by RunRev to spin off the pro product to someone else if they find themselves too encumbered with other considerations to handle it effectively. At the moment, however, they seem to be doing fine, well worth my clients paying $500 annually for renewal -- free money, year after year, like clockwork. It costs far more to acquire five new DreamCard customers than it does to simply renew an Enterprise license. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On 26 Nov 2005, at 22:18, Richard Gaskin wrote: David Bovill wrote: 1) Lack of the large number of professional grade commercial plugins or open source libraries available compared to other platforms (this seems to be changing slowly). They're out there, just poorly cataloged. RunRev currently only lists components they resell, and the DMOZ index contains only a slender subset of what's available: http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Transcript/ But nothing even close to what you get if you compare it to Java (largely due to the careful open source strategy), and dare I say Director? ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
David Bovill wrote: On 26 Nov 2005, at 22:18, Richard Gaskin wrote: David Bovill wrote: 1) Lack of the large number of professional grade commercial plugins or open source libraries available compared to other platforms (this seems to be changing slowly). They're out there, just poorly cataloged. RunRev currently only lists components they resell, and the DMOZ index contains only a slender subset of what's available: http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Transcript/ But nothing even close to what you get if you compare it to Java (largely due to the careful open source strategy), and dare I say Director? Maye having million-dollar marketing budgets helped. ;) As for Director, while there are a great many components there is no longer a single third-party source for them. Gray Matter used to be that source, but they closed their doors many years ago, and today only Macromedia themselves can afford to be the central repository. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
For some time I have been toying with the idea that software should be sold on an income-weighted pricing scheme. If Richard can afford to pay more for Rev than Andre, it is in large part because he lives and earns in USA rather than Brazil. I have a couple of educational titles being sold by my University that cost the same number of Australian dollars to Harvard as they do to universities in Africa. It doesn't seem fair. Perhaps software prices could be adjusted for the average (modal) wage in a country. It wouldn't harm me for people in low wage countries to pay me almost nothing instead of absolutely nothing... On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:12 AM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Personally, I think Rev is priced too low. And Andre replied: Sh... don't talk that too loud, I am trying to sum some money to buy a new license and pounds are expensive ;-) Regards, Michael ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Michael Lew wrote: For some time I have been toying with the idea that software should be sold on an income-weighted pricing scheme. If Richard can afford to pay more for Rev than Andre, it is in large part because he lives and earns in USA rather than Brazil. I have a couple of educational titles being sold by my University that cost the same number of Australian dollars to Harvard as they do to universities in Africa. It doesn't seem fair. Perhaps software prices could be adjusted for the average (modal) wage in a country. It wouldn't harm me for people in low wage countries to pay me almost nothing instead of absolutely nothing... I don't currently make money from writing software - I make utilities for my own use. But if I did sell software I don't think I'd be interested in getting paid 3rd world wages (no offense intended - just don't know another way to say it) and paying U.S. rates for my housing, food etc. If you're rich and don't care, you can give your software away. I'm sure many of the pros on this list who make money programming, program because they like doing so. I'm sure the RunRev people love what they do. But we all have bills to pay too. When someone sets a price on a piece of software, I get to decide if that's worth my money. I don't figure it's their job to make sure I can afford it - they don't owe me a thing (which is the attitude that socialism breeds IMHO, sorry to digress into politics!). Certainly it's noble to want to see everyone have access to good software. But having directed a local soup kitchen for 6 years, I can tell you there are people in the U.S. who are desperately poor. Who would administrate a system that would charge based on income? I think I would always be VERY poor when I went to make my purchases! Marty Knapp ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Dan Shafer wrote: But, as with others who have offered this viewpoint, I am compelled to ask you to provide even one example of a development tool company following the strategy you describe below that you say is being used by the most successful companies today. And I'll expand on that a bit. Not only can I not think of a single *development tool* company following the strategy of trying to serve two markets with a single product, I can't even come up with a single successful software company doing that. I think I'd count Adobe - Photoshop and Photoshop Elements. I think they're both variants of the same basic product - you might even want to call Elements a cut-down, crippled version of Photoshop - but it seems to me like they are basically the same product / same code base. So where are these software companies that are following this two- market strategy successfully? To the contrary, I think the secret to a successful company -- in any sphere -- is focus. Do what you do well and let others do the stuff you don't do well. If RunRev had a couple hundred people, *maybe* they could figure out how to serve both markets with great success. Short of that, I am unconvinced. If they could figure this out, maybe they *could* have a couple of hundred people :-) -- Alex Tweedly http://www.tweedly.net -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.8/183 - Release Date: 25/11/2005 ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Borland. I can't swear they still do it to this day, but in recent years, they were doing Learning Editions that had lots of function, but you couldn't legally sell apps built with it. But, seeing how much dialog this generated, I really I wish I never started the thread. :) Peace! :) Dan Shafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank. Can you give us an example or two of where this pricing is common among development tools? I see feature-crippled and time-limited evaluation licensing all the time, but I can't honestly think of a single development tool that has a free learning edition that you upgrade to so you can deploy apps. Also, with an environment like Rev, the distinction between deploy as a standalone and deploy as a stack is badly blurred by the fact that: (a) anyone with a RunRev tool (and in your scenario that would include anyone who wanted to download it) can run any stack anyone else creates, at least conceptually; and (b) there are at least two free players available that would allow the owner of a 0-cost learning edition to distribute (and presumably therefore sell) products that run in either the IDE or the players without paying a dime for the tool. That is a good way to sink the tool company. On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:35 AM, Frank R wrote: This type of Learning Edition pricing is actually common - and well received. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On Nov 25, 2005, at 8:04 PM, Michael Lew wrote: For some time I have been toying with the idea that software should be sold on an income-weighted pricing scheme. If Richard can afford to pay more for Rev than Andre, it is in large part because he lives and earns in USA rather than Brazil. I have a couple of educational titles being sold by my University that cost the same number of Australian dollars to Harvard as they do to universities in Africa. It doesn't seem fair. Perhaps software prices could be adjusted for the average (modal) wage in a country. It wouldn't harm me for people in low wage countries to pay me almost nothing instead of absolutely nothing... That's very hard. my incomme is lower than the US Standard, but RunRev expenses are higher than Brazilian expenses I cannot expect to pay with discount when they spend that much money developing the thing. It's not that hard to pay for Rev, specially Studio. Couple contract works get that going, the hard part is bootstrap your enterprize. If you don't have a development enviroment then acquiring the contract works is somewhat hard, but after you get that initial steps going... it's not that hard. so I think Rev is more expensive for those building their own tools than it is for those doing contract work... andre ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On 27/11/2005, at 9:13 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have a couple of educational titles being sold by my University that cost the same number of Australian dollars to Harvard as they do to universities in Africa. It doesn't seem fair. Perhaps software prices could be adjusted for the average (modal) wage in a country. It wouldn't harm me for people in low wage countries to pay me almost nothing instead of absolutely nothing... I don't currently make money from writing software - I make utilities for my own use. But if I did sell software I don't think I'd be interested in getting paid 3rd world wages (no offense intended - just don't know another way to say it) and paying U.S. rates for my housing, food etc. Making your software available at locally-affordable rates should not influence your ability to charge appropriate amounts in your country. Locally-affordable would be higher in the USA than in Brazil, and higher in Brazil than in Zaire. If you're rich and don't care, you can give your software away. I'm sure many of the pros on this list who make money programming, program because they like doing so. I'm sure the RunRev people love what they do. But we all have bills to pay too. When someone sets a price on a piece of software, I get to decide if that's worth my money. You've missed the point. If you only use a US-centric view of economic values then you leave out most of the people alive. What is offensive about asking a locally-affordable price for a product that has no cost for reproduction once produced? I don't figure it's their job to make sure I can afford it - they don't owe me a thing (which is the attitude that socialism breeds IMHO, sorry to digress into politics!). Given how we have gotten to the current world financial model, it would be more likely that we owe them than they owe us! Remember that the unequal distribution of wealth has come from the unequal distribution of power, not the unequal distribution of worth. It serves the ruling minority interests to equate means and success with moral worth, but we should be able to see beyond it. Certainly it's noble to want to see everyone have access to good software. But having directed a local soup kitchen for 6 years, I can tell you there are people in the U.S. who are desperately poor. Who would administrate a system that would charge based on income? I think I would always be VERY poor when I went to make my purchases! Marty Knapp I hope that you are kidding about that last comment, or at least exaggerating to illustrate a possible abuse of the proposed system. At the moment, in your country and mine, the very wealthy pay very little tax. The inevitability of abuse and loopholes should not be taken as a reason not to attempt to improve something. Regards, ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Dan, I know you qualified that as *development* tool, but I am just thinking *tool*. I don't look at Dream Card differently than Elements, or a low end CAD tool, or an outliner... All are consumer tools to me. I look at the utility of each to me to solve one type of problem. Being a hobbyist, I use a lot of different tools, but not at the same time. In fact, the reason I buy a tool is because I have just one project that I need the tool for. I might use Rev like crazy for a few months, then not use it at all for a year, then back at it again. I also have a lot of woodworking tools. I buy the lowest cost tool that will do a reasonable job, then If I wear it out, or find it is the most used tool, I will replace it with a professional grade one. If I were to go for the professional grade software, or wood working tool in everything I have, I would have to spend $100K in tools and if it were all software tools, $30K/year in upgrades --that isn't going to happen! However, If I really got into Rev and was going to generate income with it, I would upgrade to a Professional version --just as I would with any other tool that warranted it. I see examples of the multi price point tool products from successful companies everywhere. When I buy a table saw, darned if they don't all have a similar user interface. Expectations also change with the size of the investment. If my cheap $100 saw (which lacks some features of the expensive one and comes with a short warranty) breaks, I try to fix it, or junk it. Whereas, if my expensive saw breaks, the manufacture better damn sure get their asses in gear and get this tool fixed now --and they do! In the case of RR, I think they are taking the right approach. They primarily listen to and support the professional customers --exactly right, that gives them focus. They maintain one interface and code base across their products --essential for limiting the incremental work involved in the lower priced products, since the company is too small to support multiple efforts. Since Rev is complex to fully learn all the features, Hobby programmers that grow into professionals, do not have to start over in the learning curve. I just can't think of a better planned way of doing this with the size that RR is now. Being the type of customer that (if I weren't retired) could potentially turn Pro, I can speak from how I view these products. I view the RR product line in a favorable light, but Transcript is rich and complex. The biggest roadblock I see is making the documentation into something that captures the wisdom of this list that can be searched with only a concept of the problem to be solved instead of what the solution is called by someone else. It is too big a project for RR to tackle. It can only be done by this list. But that is another thread on another list. BTW, in the early 70's I was a freelance consultant for early Intel 8008 based product developers. I wrote an 8008 emulator for a minicomputer that I designed, and ran Intel's development tools on it. I could turn around compiles 10 times faster than my customers using Intel's native development tools. I provided hardware or software consulting. The thrust of my consulting was to provide initial solutions, then provide the training to the customer's engineers to take over the project as soon as possible (I had my own products to develop, but needed to generate additional cash from consulting). So my perspective does span a broader range than just the inventive hobbyist. Dennis On Nov 26, 2005, at 3:24 PM, Dan Shafer wrote: Dennis A well-thought-out and appreciated post. But, as with others who have offered this viewpoint, I am compelled to ask you to provide even one example of a development tool company following the strategy you describe below that you say is being used by the most successful companies today. And I'll expand on that a bit. Not only can I not think of a single *development tool* company following the strategy of trying to serve two markets with a single product, I can't even come up with a single successful software company doing that. When I think of successful software companies in the desktop universe, I think of: Microsoft Adobe Macromedia (about to be swallowed by Adobe if that hasn't been finalized yet) Apple (partly) Real Maybe Oracle (which is a dev tools vendor in large part, but not much on the desktop) Adobe doesn't have a low-cost entry version of Acrobat or inDesign. A trial version, yes, but when it expires you pay through the nose to keep using it. Same with Macromedia. Apple supports low- and high-end users in a couple of its strategic markets, but with two separate products, not a low-cost version of the high-priced one. Real has a free player but if you want to start creating Real media streams you're gonna
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank- Saturday, November 26, 2005, 2:40:06 PM, you wrote: Borland. I can't swear they still do it to this day, but in recent years, they were doing Learning Editions that had lots of function, but you couldn't legally sell apps built with it. Borland makes their 5.0 compiler freely available to do with what you want, but that's rather like saying you can use MetaCard today without the rev IDE. But, seeing how much dialog this generated, I really I wish I never started the thread. :) Not so. This topic comes up once a year or so, and I think it's a good discussion to have, just to get it done again. I've got my own ideas of how I'd run things if I were in charge, and fortunately for all concerned I'm not the CEO of runrev, so nobody has to deal with them. My hat's off to Kevin and crew for keeping things rolling, and I'm glad that the headaches are theirs to deal with and not mine. -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On Nov 25, 2005, at 7:45 PM, Michael Lew wrote: At the moment, in your country and mine, the very wealthy pay very little tax. The top 1% earners in the US pay 34% of the taxes. The top 5% earners in the US pay 54% of the taxes. The top 50% earners in the US pay 97% of the taxes. If a wealthy person here is not paying much tax, it means they are likely going to not be wealthy much longer. Dennis ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
on Sat, 26 Nov 2005 Dan Shafer wrote: Can you give us an example or two of where this pricing is common among development tools? I see feature-crippled and time-limited evaluation licensing all the time, but I can't honestly think of a single development tool that has a free learning edition that you upgrade to so you can deploy apps. Hi Dan, Does Maya Personal Learning Edition qualify in this category of development tool? http://www.alias.com/glb/eng/products-services/product_details.jsp?productId=193 Maya Personal Learning Edition is a complete tool for the complex Maya Animation System, but uses an special file format that could not be opened in the Professional Versions of Maya. Could RunRev create a special stack file format that do not open in the full versions of DreamCard or Revolution? I think that the answer is yes... Could this make happy many people? al Visit my site: http://www.geocities.com/capellan2000/ __ Yahoo! Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music.yahoo.com/unlimited/ ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
I wasn't referring to the free and old C++ available. Recently, they had Learning Editions of All their current development tools - Delphi, C++, Kylix, Java. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank- Saturday, November 26, 2005, 2:40:06 PM, you wrote: Borland. I can't swear they still do it to this day, but in recent years, they were doing Learning Editions that had lots of function, but you couldn't legally sell apps built with it. Borland makes their 5.0 compiler freely available to do with what you want, but that's rather like saying you can use MetaCard today without the rev IDE. But, seeing how much dialog this generated, I really I wish I never started the thread. :) Not so. This topic comes up once a year or so, and I think it's a good discussion to have, just to get it done again. I've got my own ideas of how I'd run things if I were in charge, and fortunately for all concerned I'm not the CEO of runrev, so nobody has to deal with them. My hat's off to Kevin and crew for keeping things rolling, and I'm glad that the headaches are theirs to deal with and not mine. -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
I've been racking my brain the last 48 hours and I cannot come up with a single development tool company that has succeeded at doing this since Borland's very early days. I'd be delighted if someone could point me to a real exception to that rule, but absent that, I maintain my position. RunRev needs to decide whether it's going to try to get professional coders to switch to Rev or adopt it as a RAD or alternative tool, or go after the untapped market potential of the Inventive User. Until it makes that decision and then permeates the company and its policies with it, it will have difficulty being as successful as it can. I would have to say MM Flash is positioned at the beginner and very advanced users. -Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Richard Gaskin wrote: Gray Matter used to be that source, but they closed their doors many years ago, and today only Macromedia themselves can afford to be the central repository. Yeah, and the guy that ran Gray Matter was a crook. Took a bunch of money from us, and others. Turns out he's now wanted in many states. I was at a conference he was giving a talk at, and the police came and escorted him to jail. Couldn't stop from smiling. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
It would be interesting to see some statistics from the company re: regular, paying customers and per license type. Perhaps the reality is counter-intuitive, but to what extent does Rev have an in with the big programming companies? It seems a conundrum. It would seem that the company has already tapped all the low-hanging fruit of the HC/SC/hobbyist crowd, yet at the same time does not seem poised to make big inroads in the programming community at large. Judy On Sat, 26 Nov 2005, Richard Gaskin wrote: It costs far more to acquire five new DreamCard customers than it does to simply renew an Enterprise license. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank- Saturday, November 26, 2005, 7:13:30 PM, you wrote: I wasn't referring to the free and old C++ available. Recently, they had Learning Editions of All their current development tools - Delphi, C++, Kylix, Java. Well, let's see... C++ Builder *30-day trial* version 6 is dated March 2002 The Kylix *trial* versions are dated from mid-2002 (version 3) The JBuilder versions are current but only run for 30 days Delphi Personal is not downloadable but is available through select publications, as is Borland C++ Builder Personal. ...or you can purchase Delphi starting at $1090 on up to $3490. C++ Builder lists for $927 (pro) and $2117 (enterprise) Entry level JBuilder is $499 Maybe you were thinking of Microsoft? They offered a Learning Edition of VB at the student pricing of $50. Then end-of-lifed the product. Mind you, I like Borland's compilers. But the Turbo Pascal days, or even the Turbo C days, are behind them now. -- -Mark Wieder [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Good question, Mark. I'm not sure RunRev is falling down with respect to either market at this point because neither market has yet reched the point where its demands pose a problem. If you run through Bugzilla and this list I think you'd find that the vast majority of current users are inventive users (glad you like that phrase; I invented it back in the HyperCard heyday) and that among newcomers to Rev out of that audience there's generally a significant amount of initial confusion and consternation that only dissipates with some extensive exposure to the product. Until recently, I suspect most new Rev users were HyperRefugees, but I have a sense that in the recent past -- say the last six months or so -- that has started to shift and more Inventive Users who are discovering Rev without an HC background are coming into the mix. As that happens, there will be even greater pressure on RunRev to find new ways of introducing these people to the concepts and uses of Rev. I have always felt that RunRev ought to focus pretty exclusively on the Inventive User market and I've not only expounded that idea here, I've laid it out in some detail. I do not claim that I think this is a present issue, but I have a sense that it is going to become one as the market expands. On Nov 26, 2005, at 1:03 PM, Mark Smith wrote: Dan, this is an innocent question, not intended to provoke or contradict, but where do you think Rev is currently falling down with regard to either pro developers or inventive users? ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Richard On Nov 26, 2005, at 1:06 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Pros need pro tools, and even hobbysts aspire to professional- looking results. A strategy that appeals to the high end will appeal to both. Ultimately, that's probably true. It's another way of saying Inventive Users eventually become more like pros. But Inventive Users (hobbyists in your parlance) need hand-holding of a different type and depth at the beginning of their experience with Rev and that's where the problems arise. To the degree this is a result of focusing on the pro product maybe that's not so bad. My perspective is admittedly skewed, being dependent on the pro product to manage the three businesses in which I'm CTO: I'd hate to see any slowdown of bug fixes or feature enhancements in the engine to make a prettier entry-level tool. And you just put your finger on another problem for RunRev, didn't you? :-) I maintain that without a significant improvement in the out-of-the- box experience for DC, the company will never reach broad enough appeal to reach critical mass among the Inventive User marketplace. But it's clear to both of us that if they divert resources to that task, development of the pro version will undoubtedly suffer at least delays. That's precisely the trade-off that they will ultimately have to make. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
You put your finger on it for me, Richard. I developed a detailed strategy for doing just this for another company (one that's no longer in business, not because they adopted my proposal) and have shared that with RunRev privately. There is a model I believe would work but it requires RunRev to focus *its* efforts 100% on the Inventive User market while both leveraging and honoring the pro developer base. On Nov 26, 2005, at 1:24 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: I would wholeheartedly support a move by RunRev to spin off the pro product to someone else if they find themselves too encumbered with other considerations to handle it effectively. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
That's a wonderful sentiment and a princely idea, Michael. But it would pose a serious administrative nightmare, particularly for software downloaded over the Net where you can't even know where the buyer resides! I have on more than one occasion made one of my products available to someone who emailed me privately and said they needed or wanted it but just couldn't afford it. Maybe if there were a clearing-house of some sort for Third World software needs, some kind of plan could be put into place. But as others have said here in different ways -- and as you well know -- the total cost involved in providing software to a customer is often much larger than the initial fee. Support costs can kill you. And if your customers don't speak English as a primary language and are working on dialup systems at best, support could turn into a real sink hole. On Nov 25, 2005, at 2:04 PM, Michael Lew wrote: I have a couple of educational titles being sold by my University that cost the same number of Australian dollars to Harvard as they do to universities in Africa. It doesn't seem fair. Perhaps software prices could be adjusted for the average (modal) wage in a country. It wouldn't harm me for people in low wage countries to pay me almost nothing instead of absolutely nothing... ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
I agree, Alex, but they remain two separate products. Last I checked, you can't buy Elements and then get credit for an upgrade to Photoshop. In that way, they are similar to Apple's iMovie-Final Cut Pro and GarageBand-Logic Pro product mixes. On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:35 PM, Alex Tweedly wrote: I think I'd count Adobe - Photoshop and Photoshop Elements. I think they're both variants of the same basic product - you might even want to call Elements a cut-down, crippled version of Photoshop - but it seems to me like they are basically the same product / same code base. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank... On Nov 26, 2005, at 2:40 PM, Frank R wrote: But, seeing how much dialog this generated, I really I wish I never started the thread. :) Why? This kind of dialog is helpful and meaningful and for a lot of us who develop in Rev, this is the only place we can discuss such topics! ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Chipp I would have agreed until the last two revs. I am not personally acquainted with the situation, but several friends of mine who teach and study multimedia development at our local university have complained bitterly to me in the past year about how MM has made development in Flash all but inaccessible to folks who don't grok scripting. I'm not sure how they've managed to do this -- or if it's just a perception -- but it's hurt them in this university curriculum. OTOH, that group is now investigating Rev, so all is not lost! On Nov 26, 2005, at 8:22 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: I've been racking my brain the last 48 hours and I cannot come up with a single development tool company that has succeeded at doing this since Borland's very early days. I'd be delighted if someone could point me to a real exception to that rule, but absent that, I maintain my position. RunRev needs to decide whether it's going to try to get professional coders to switch to Rev or adopt it as a RAD or alternative tool, or go after the untapped market potential of the Inventive User. Until it makes that decision and then permeates the company and its policies with it, it will have difficulty being as successful as it can. I would have to say MM Flash is positioned at the beginner and very advanced users. -Chipp ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Really? Man, I knew that guy when he was at Macromedia. I can't remember his name off hand, but that's a startling story. Dan On Nov 26, 2005, at 8:26 PM, Chipp Walters wrote: Richard Gaskin wrote: Gray Matter used to be that source, but they closed their doors many years ago, and today only Macromedia themselves can afford to be the central repository. Yeah, and the guy that ran Gray Matter was a crook. Took a bunch of money from us, and others. Turns out he's now wanted in many states. I was at a conference he was giving a talk at, and the police came and escorted him to jail. Couldn't stop from smiling. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Dan Shafer wrote: I maintain that without a significant improvement in the out-of-the- box experience for DC, the company will never reach broad enough appeal to reach critical mass among the Inventive User marketplace. One can hope. Another reason the readers of this list are glad I have no control over the product: I feel Rev is too valuable to share too broadly, a strategic competitive advantage I would prefer to keep among my clients and my friends' clients. Tarting it all over town for just $99 gives too much away. ;) -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Dan Shafer wrote regarding Flash: I would have agreed until the last two revs. I am not personally acquainted with the situation, but several friends of mine who teach and study multimedia development at our local university have complained bitterly to me in the past year about how MM has made development in Flash all but inaccessible to folks who don't grok scripting. I'm not sure how they've managed to do this -- or if it's just a perception -- but it's hurt them in this university curriculum. And yet while those inventive users suffer, there were never enough of them to keep Adobe LiveMotion alive. As Scott Rossi can attest and I'll toss in a hearty Amen!, LiveMotion was truly Flash for the rest of us. Everyone who ever spent more than 20 minutes with both agreed that LiveMotion was far more accessible. Borrowing the best of After Effects' award-winning timeline, LiveMotion made simple and immediate sense out of so many things that were insanely arcane in Flash. It didn't offer the full range of dynamic programming capabilities as Flash had, but LiveMotion made short work of animations and basic interactivity, certainly enough to handle much of what Flash is commonly used for. But at the end of the day, Adobe couldn't find enough users who didn't prefer the more professionally-oriented Flash to justify keeping LiveMotion alive. -- Richard Gaskin Managing Editor, revJournal ___ Rev tips, tutorials and more: http://www.revJournal.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Before I start my complaint about pricing, let me at least say that I applaud the company for having a $99 price point for Dreamcard. It at least opens the doors for more people to explore this intriguing tool. On the other hand, the pricing needs to go even further. In my 20 years in the world of software, I can't tell you how many companies I have observed shoot themselves in the foot by having a great product but pricing it out of reach for the masses. The pricing that has Built companies has been - price it low to draw people in, get the revenue later with advanced features and with deployment licensing costs. Turbo Pascal was sold in huge quantities because it was a $49 product that many could afford. The same was true with the Initial pricing of many MS products. This company should offer DreamCard free - but, for free, Without the ability to deploy an app. The apps could only be run inside the IDE. This would give more people more than 30 days to race through the product, and it would defer collecting revenue until someone actually baked something of Value - that could be sold. At that point, the programmer has an easy time paying the bucks for a development license. I'm going to finish evaluating this, and I'm going to start my project, but I won't be done in 30 days, and my journey will probably end there. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I can't afford to lay out for tools anymore until I Know I'm going to get across the finish line with something of value to sell. This product needs to shoot for Volume. That means - further aggressive pricing. My four cents. Frank ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Adjusted for inflation and the price of gas, Turbo Pascal would sell for $99 today. You're right on the money. Best, Jerry On Nov 25, 2005, at 3:07 PM, Frank R wrote: Turbo Pascal was sold in huge quantities because it was a $49 product that many could afford. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank, I won't argue your points. I'm sure others will. I will say that rev is the best solution I've seen and worked with. I pay for great software like Photoshop, Illustrator, and Revolution and they have MADE ME MONEY, so I don't mind paying for them. I'm sure after 30 days you could download a new trial version, and I'm sure if you contacted RunRev about your situation they can help you. Tom On Nov 25, 2005, at 4:07 PM, Frank R wrote: This company should offer DreamCard free - but, for free, Without the ability to deploy an app. The apps could only be run inside the IDE. This would give more people more than 30 days to race through the product, and it would defer collecting revenue until someone actually baked something of Value - that could be sold. At that point, the programmer has an easy time paying the bucks for a development license. I'm going to finish evaluating this, and I'm going to start my project, but I won't be done in 30 days, and my journey will probably end there. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I can't afford to lay out for tools anymore until I Know I'm going to get across the finish line with something of value to sell. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank R wrote: Before I start my complaint about pricing, let me at least say that I applaud the company for having a $99 price point for Dreamcard. It at least opens the doors for more people to explore this intriguing tool. On the other hand, the pricing needs to go even further. *Could* go further, perhaps. *Needs* too? I'm not convinced. How many commercial applications have you shipped, and how many of those do you currently support and maintain? -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Hello Frank, It's been a long time since I posted to the list, but I thought I'd add my perspective in regards to pricing. You wrote: The pricing that has Built companies has been - price it low to draw people in, get the revenue later with advanced features and with deployment licensing costs. Revolution already *is* that later version with the advanced features. ;) I think most of the users consider Revolution to be Enterprise quality and is up to virtually any task that you can throw in it's direction. I know I do. Quick research: DreamCard: United States Dollars = 99.00 USD United Kingdom Pounds = 57.71 GBP Revolution: United States Dollars = 299.00 USD United Kingdom Pounds = 174.29 GBP Revolution's closest ancestor in the family tree (Meta-Card) sold for around $995.00 USD, so with the many additions and improvements, the price point today is a real bargain. With the current feature set and ability to deploy on three major platforms considered, it's a great bargain! Since Runtime Revolution (the company) is based in the United Kingdom, I'd say that from their perspective, it's already priced pretty low. The principle owners, employees and investors all have living expenses based on the British Pound rather than the dollar. Forgetting any potential R.O.Ifor a second, just the cost of paying salaries and doing business in general must be put into the proper perspective, price wise. Last perspective: I work for a company here in the U.S. who's primary marketing strategy seems to be lower pricing, lower pricing and lower pricing. (No, the name doesn't sound anything like Walm..t) While a certain volume is always an important factor for most companies, having everyone working twice as hard just to maintain profit levels for the previous 6 months cannot last forever. I think we all would like to see Revolution prosper into the future. :) Sorry if I've sounded the least bit argumentative, because that's certainly not my intent... Just a little food for thought. -Dave- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank. Thanks for sharing your perspective. I don't *entirely* agree but I don't think you're off the deep end, either. You said, I'm going to finish evaluating this, and I'm going to start my project, but I won't be done in 30 days, and my journey will probably end there. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I can't afford to lay out for tools anymore until I Know I'm going to get across the finish line with something of value to sell. I noticed the other day that one or Revolution's very few competitors, RealBasic, has an interesting policy that I hadn't been aware of before. When your evaluation license expires, they have an option on the notification dialog to request an extension of time to continue the evaluation. For kicks, I hit that option and within a short time I got a new eval license in email. That seems sensible to me. Rev *is* a big product and although I know that once you know how productive you can be its price seems if anything too low, the fact is that if you don't know that for sure, forking over a few hundred bucks to confirm your suspicions may be asking too much of some folks. Obviously the company can track such requests and decide at some point that you've had long enough to evaluate the product and not grant any extensions. That would keep tire-kickers from using the product and never buying it. OTOH, Frank, if you get to 30 days and you've actually spent serious time with Revolution you will have built at least a few things, perhaps even part of your planned first application, and then to decide that you can't afford to pay for a tool you're not sure you can use to produce something of value to sell may be a very short- sighted decision indeed. I hope you don't make that one. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Thanks, Dan, and others for the dialog on this. I just have seen so many times in my life products that had So much potential for a larger base, only for it never to happen because of the steep entry costs. The $99 entry point for Dreamcard is certainly good - and better than the entry point for many tools out there. OTOH, I would always argue to Any tool maker that - the revenue generated by tire kickers is minimal. Loss of that revenue would not significantly change the financial equation for any tool maker. But, the door opens to Much Greater revenue when you have scenarios like - 0$ to use the IDE idefinitely, and $X when you deploy your applications. You catch more long term fish that way. Part of this is also personal for me. I lived times when I could throw money at tools until one stuck to the wall, and now I live during times when that is impossible. Anyway, glad to have found the tool - and this list. Looks like a good crowd and very helpful dialog. Frank Dan Shafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Frank. Thanks for sharing your perspective. I don't *entirely* agree but I don't think you're off the deep end, either. You said, I'm going to finish evaluating this, and I'm going to start my project, but I won't be done in 30 days, and my journey will probably end there. Maybe I'm in the minority, but I can't afford to lay out for tools anymore until I Know I'm going to get across the finish line with something of value to sell. I noticed the other day that one or Revolution's very few competitors, RealBasic, has an interesting policy that I hadn't been aware of before. When your evaluation license expires, they have an option on the notification dialog to request an extension of time to continue the evaluation. For kicks, I hit that option and within a short time I got a new eval license in email. That seems sensible to me. Rev *is* a big product and although I know that once you know how productive you can be its price seems if anything too low, the fact is that if you don't know that for sure, forking over a few hundred bucks to confirm your suspicions may be asking too much of some folks. Obviously the company can track such requests and decide at some point that you've had long enough to evaluate the product and not grant any extensions. That would keep tire-kickers from using the product and never buying it. OTOH, Frank, if you get to 30 days and you've actually spent serious time with Revolution you will have built at least a few things, perhaps even part of your planned first application, and then to decide that you can't afford to pay for a tool you're not sure you can use to produce something of value to sell may be a very short- sighted decision indeed. I hope you don't make that one. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
WHOOO!!! I would definitely not go for this. The hassles alone trying to license for deployment only to find out the product I try to sell has no chance in a big market or any market. That is too much. I would not buy a tool like that. I much prefer a couple hundred dollars to create useful utilities for myself and then have the chance to try and deploy a couple of products for sale with out the risk. I would gladly pay double what Rev is asking for the opportunity to have a free license to deploy what and where and how I want to with no more money, ever, going to them after the initial purchase. I think this would reduce long term revenues and invite nothing but free tire kickers, heck it would turn me off from trying to take big risks building products I thought might be good but wasn't sure would be good. I'm sorry but I very much disagree with this mentality completely. Tom On Nov 25, 2005, at 10:21 PM, Frank R wrote: But, the door opens to Much Greater revenue when you have scenarios like - 0$ to use the IDE idefinitely, and $X when you deploy your applications. You catch more long term fish that way. ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
David Coker wrote: Quick research: DreamCard: United States Dollars = $99 Revolution: United States Dollars = $299 Some comparative data: RealBASIC Standard $99 RealBASIC Pro $399 Macromedia Flash: $699 Macromedia Director: $1,199 (per platform) Toolbook Instructor: $2,495 (only one platform available) Two factors to consider: 1. the value of price-positioning 2. the lower the price, the more support costs will rise disproportionate to sales by attracting users with less professional experience developing applications. If one feels strongly about the potential for lower price points there's nothing stopping them from demonstrating that point with their own product and report back here with the hard data on how the price drop affected total ROI. Personally, I think Rev is priced too low. -- Richard Gaskin Fourth World Media Corporation ___ [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.FourthWorld.com ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Good points, Richard. On Nov 25, 2005, at 8:12 PM, Richard Gaskin wrote: Personally, I think Rev is priced too low. I can't say I disagree. Back in the 80's -- I know, that's SO last century! -- there were two Smalltalks on the market. Digitalk sold for something like $99. ParcPlace Systems Smalltalk-80 sold for something like $1,000. While there were lots of differences between them, it was entirely possible to build most kinds of apps with the lower-priced product. I asked PPS founder Adele Goldberg one day how come she didn't lower her prices to compete for the broader market with Digitalk. I'll never forget her answer. People who pay $99 for a development tool expect to learn it in a few hours, master it in a few days and hound tech support unmercifully at no cost. People who pay $1,000 for a development tool take it and their work seriously, understand that it requires a significant effort to learn and master, and are not only willing to pay for support, they are eager to do so because they don't want the company that makes their favorite tool to go out of business. She allowed as how she'd rather have far fewer customers who were professional not only in their work but in their attitude than 1 million hobbyists. In some ways, this discussion is just a rehash of the old battle over who the market for Revolution is or ought to be: professional coders or hobbyists. I know RunRev disagrees with me -- and so do many of you on this list -- but I maintain you cannot adequately serve both markets. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
Frank Not one major development tool has ever succeeded charging for runtime delivery. Not one. You buy a C++ compiler, you don't pay the compiler maker for each copy of your app. Companies that have tried runtime royalty deals over the years -- and there have been many, with a staggering array of ideas for the best way to structure the fees -- have abandoned their plan or gone out of business or both. And with so many free (open source and otherwise) compilers and IDEs out there, it would be suicide for anyone to try to charge per-copy distribution fees in today's market. On Nov 25, 2005, at 7:21 PM, Frank R wrote: But, the door opens to Much Greater revenue when you have scenarios like - 0$ to use the IDE idefinitely, and $X when you deploy your applications. You catch more long term fish that way. ~~ Dan Shafer, Information Product Consultant and Author http://www.shafermedia.com Get my book, Revolution: Software at the Speed of Thought From http://www.shafermediastore.com/tech_main.html ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On 11/25/05 10:27 PM, Dan Shafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: People who pay $99 for a development tool expect to learn it in a few hours, master it in a few days and hound tech support unmercifully at no cost. People who pay $1,000 for a development tool take it and their work seriously, understand that it requires a significant effort to learn and master, and are not only willing to pay for support, they are eager to do so because they don't want the company that makes their favorite tool to go out of business. This was the same philosophy espoused by Scott Raney, when he was selling MetaCard for $999 and nothing else... of course, that was until RunRev picked it up... :-) Ken Ray Sons of Thunder Software Web site: http://www.sonsothunder.com/ Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
Re: Pricing / entry cost for this tool
On 11/25/05, Dan Shafer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And with so many free (open source and otherwise) compilers and IDEs out there, it would be suicide for anyone to try to charge per-copy distribution fees in today's market. Total agreement here. I've got a whole tool chest full of other development tools at my disposal and even though I feel that Rev beats out the whole bunch, I would have never even considered it with that type of licensing scheme. Although I'm certainly not a professional developer (yet), I would definitely fall into the serious hobbiest category, using Rev mostly for work related projects. I currently have the Studio version for Windows and a DreamCard license for Linux, with plans of buying the 2.6 version for my new Mac-Mini before year end (or shortly thereafter). I see it as a really good investment for the future. -Dave- ___ use-revolution mailing list use-revolution@lists.runrev.com Please visit this url to subscribe, unsubscribe and manage your subscription preferences: http://lists.runrev.com/mailman/listinfo/use-revolution
