Re: [Vo]:OT: Journal of Universal Rejection

[David L. Babcock]

Oh wow!
Thank you!

On Tue, Jun 14, 2022 at 9:03 PM H LV  wrote:

>
> https://universalrejection.org/
>
> ;-)
> Harry
>

Re: [Vo]:This smells like an April 1 joke

[David L. Babcock]

Is anyone considering bottled hydrogen sold at gas stations? Was surfing
and saw a link about  nearly indestructible plastic containers for powering
-I think it was- heavy construction equipment.
Think one gallon propane tanks. Available in many/most gas  stations. So
neatly identical that you just swap an empty for a full, without regard for
either the brand of  the tank or the brand of your auto. Quite expensive
compared  to a propane tank because safety, but the market is rapidly
expandable. No pipelines, no underground tanks, transport is by ordinary
truck -not even tankers.
I imagine that four or six bottles might be needed for a fillup.
These same bottles would serve many of the other  petrochemical markets,
replacing acetylene and propane for instance.

On Mon, Apr 4, 2022 at 3:40 PM Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Jones Beene  wrote:
>
>
>> Prior to this there had been and remains a nascent movement around the
>> idea that hydrogen made from wind or solar was going to be our savior on
>> the energy front - despite the intractable poor economics involved in the
>> manufacture and storage.
>>
>
> The economics are poor. I expect this technology will never catch up with
> things like solar combined with battery storage. But I do not know if the
> problems are "intractable." If we had no alternatives, the problems might
> be tractable. But there is now no economic incentive to solve these
> problems. In that sense, hydrogen from solar or wind resembles concentrated
> solar power systems, such as Ivanpah or SEGS in the U.S., and various
> installations in Morocco and Spain. If the cost of PV solar had not fallen
> so drastically, concentrated solar power might have been competitive long
> enough to develop it and lower the cost. It often happens that whatever
> technology shows up first wins the competition just because it was first.
> This is known as "incumbency." See p. 63:
>
> https://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf
>
> Hydrogen might have been used as a method of storing solar or wind power.
> Or as a method of transporting energy via pipeline from low population
> windy places such as North Dakota to population centers. That might still
> happen, but I doubt it. I do not think there is any chance that hydrogen
> will be used for transportation with fuel cells. The Toyota Mirai car is an
> example of that (https://www.toyota.com/mirai/). It will never work
> because you would have to have hydrogen fuel stations everywhere. An
> electric car can be charged at home. Or you can install a charger anywhere,
> because electric power is available everywhere. But a hydrogen powered
> vehicle must be refueled at a hydrogen gas station. It would cost huge
> amounts to build enough hydrogen stations. I think the era of chemically
> fueled ground transportation is rapidly coming to an end. It will all be
> battery powered electric soon.
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Covid back yard well project progress report

[David L. Babcock]

You are so screwed if you hit a pipe.  It will be a very expensive hole
needed to fix.  And don't put it off. Many or most of those sinkhole
horrors are the result of -not a cavern collapse- but broken pipes. Slowly
washing the dirt out from under your yard/house.

On Mon, Aug 3, 2020 at 9:35 AM Frank Znidarsic  wrote:

>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Frank Znidarsic 
> To: mixent...@aussiebroadband.com.au 
> Sent: Mon, Aug 3, 2020 10:33 am
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Covid back yard well project progress report
>
> The house has been here for 70 years no collapse yet.  I have found that
> the water only comes out when it has rained a lot.  Its like a rain spout
> water coming out while raining and dry other times.
>
>
> I have not given up.  I would like to use this water to water a garden net
> year.
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Robin 
> To: Frank Znidarsic 
> Sent: Sun, Aug 2, 2020 9:04 pm
> Subject: Re: [Vo]:Covid back yard well project progress report
>
> In reply to  Frank Znidarsic's message of Mon, 3 Aug 2020 00:52:20 +
> (UTC):
> Hi Frank,
> [snip]
>
> >I jack hammered down 6 feed then I drove a well point the rest of the way
> in to 21 feet or more.  At first I got this.
> >http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/temp/sucks.mp4
> >
> >Then a few feet deeper I got this.
> >http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/zpt/temp/blows.mp4
>
>
> You sure you haven't hit a water main?
>
> ...actually, sucking may be due to an underground stream running through a
> space that is larger than it is. As the water
> runs through it acts as a sort of vacuum pump.
>
> ...too much water...that's what taps are for. :)
>
>

Re: [Vo]:I will shut up about my aetheric images if at least 10 people try and take this poll

[David L. Babcock]

Tried it twice, but arm/wrist got too tired to give it even 1/2 min. The
poll didn't give me an option to explicate my experience, so I post here; I
indeed felt something: heat. Moving closer and further increased and
decreased this as you would expect.
*When I tried this sequence on screen without image, it was exactly the
same. *

This is the sort of basic element of experiment design which you really
have to incorporate!
In your defense, aspirin and many other meds do not effect me much; perhaps
I am placebo immune. Or "magic" immune. (I am pretty sure magic is a real
thing; I've seen it.)

Please do not assume that by using the term "magic" I am denigrating your
findings, or your attempt to make explanations. I am firmly in the open
minded camp.

Hey! Lets see some picture of your asymmetrical coils.

Yours, David Babcock

On Wed, Feb 26, 2020 at 3:28 PM Jonathan Berry  wrote:

> Please excuse the coercive nature of this email...
>
> But, I believe this technology is of the utmost importance, I believe that
> it needs more than one man working on/with it and I don't believe that
> there is another way to get attention or belief in this.  Indeed attention
> requires belief.
>
> If 10 people take the poll and if the group is unconvinced that the
> results merit further discussion, then I will drop the subject and not
> bring it up for a year at least, the technology would need to improve
> markedly or demonstrate in a more material manner (some measurable effect)
> before I would re-present it ever to this group.
>
> I would hope that if roughly half the respondents (or more) feel the
> energy, and some feel a compelling degree (painful, burning, intense) then
> it should be viewed as supporting the idea that this deserves more
> attention.
>
> Let me run a poll on this list right now, everyone on here, who has tried
> the latest designs?
> I predict that fewer people will have tried it than outright rejected it.
>
> Here is the poll, BTW I ran a poll on the new group I started and while
> only 3 people have answered, all 3 can feel the energy, another could see
> it but not feel it so I have added that option.   Some actually just feel
> strangely draw to the images.
>
> Vote here: https://linkto.run/p/09RVMGHOImage here:
> https://ibb.co/z5DFr69
> Further images here:
> https://www.quora.com/What-discovery-have-you-made-which-the-world-isnt-mentally-ready-for/answer/Jonathan-Berry-95
>
> *The image on the voting platform is terrible damaged from compression
> artifacts which hurt it*, so a better example is posted at the second
> link.
>
> My prediction is that fewer than 10 people, even here (supposed nest of
> believers) will try it despite my attempts to motivate people annoyed by
> the subject will try than report not feeling it.  And despite the fact I
> have been on this group for over 20 years.  Though I hope to be proven
> wrong.
>
> What if at least half do feel something, and that some of those feel a
> compelling degree of activity, what then?
> Would those who don't, or who are skeptical become interested?  I would
> hope so, but we will see.
>
>
> Maybe my last email on the subject?!
> Jonathan
>
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Fwd: Motley Fool: Lockheed Martin Doubles Down on Cold Fusion

[David L. Babcock]

"Cold fusion".  Gah!  Requires a very hot -magnetic confinement!- plasma.
Someone at LM is an idiot.

On Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 8:07 PM Terry Blanton  wrote:

>
>
> -- Forwarded message -
> From: Terry Blanton 
> Date: Wed, Jul 31, 2019 at 2:33 PM
> Subject: Motley Fool: Lockheed Martin Doubles Down on Cold Fusion
> To: Terry Blanton 
>
>
> Motley Fool: Lockheed Martin Doubles Down on Cold Fusion.
>
> https://www.fool.com/investing/2019/07/29/lockheed-martin-doubles-down-on-cold-fusion.aspx
>

Re: [Vo]:Financial Times article on cold fusion

[David L. Babcock]

Thank you. A good read!

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 1:21 PM  wrote:

> Sure here’s a bit since I am features in the story…
> http://atom-ecology.russgeorge.net/2019/06/04/cold-fusion-alive-and-well/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* David L. Babcock 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 4, 2019 6:48 PM
> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Financial Times article on cold fusion
>
>
>
> Hey! Paywall! Give us a brief synopses !
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 12:40 PM Jed Rothwell 
> wrote:
>
> See:
>
>
>
> https://www.ft.com/content/4233196a-82cb-11e9-b592-5fe435b57a3b
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Financial Times article on cold fusion

[David L. Babcock]

Hey! Paywall! Give us a brief synopses !

On Tue, Jun 4, 2019 at 12:40 PM Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> See:
>
> https://www.ft.com/content/4233196a-82cb-11e9-b592-5fe435b57a3b
>

Re: [Vo]:Robert Godes podcdid not catch the signifast

[David L. Babcock]

I hope that was snark... Not much could beat a match.

On Sat, Jan 19, 2019 at 1:35 PM H LV  wrote:

> If the goal is the conversion of energy into heat rather than the
> production of energy (0U), how efficient is this method compared to other
> methods? I mean if LENR or CF proves to be impractical as a primary source
> of energy then perhaps it's true value is in the production of heat. Harry
>
> On Sat, Jan 19, 2019, 1:03 AM bobcook39...@hotmail.com <
> bobcook39...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
>> Jones—
>>
>>
>>
>> I agree with you.  I did not catch the meaning of the “wall” in your
>> discussion  with Jack.  I agree that it should be easy to measure
>> electrical AC energy consumed by  the pulse generator.
>>
>>
>>
>> I was focusing on the question of energy into the reactor introduced by
>> the pulse  for comparison with  energy out, over and above that coming
>> out.
>>
>>
>>
>> I also find it hard to believe that the folks funding the testing did not
>> understand the losses of energy  in the pulse generator, which were not
>> contributing to stimulation of the reactor   to release potential energy
>> whatever that source might be.
>>
>>
>>
>> Bob Cook
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> *From:* Jones Beene 
>> *Sent:* Friday, January 18, 2019 3:48:58 PM
>> *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Robert Godes podcast
>>
>> bobcook wrote:
>>
>> > You say it is easy to measure pulsed power at the wall of the Godes
>> reactor and suggest the measurements were accomplished, but covered up...
>> You should suggest a method to do this “easy” measurement.
>>
>> Bob,
>>
>> Apparently my main underlying assumption - which is apparently reversed
>> from yours - is that the energy expended to create the special pulses MUST
>> BE included as part of the input - even if it is much higher than what is
>> actually contained in the pulses when they appear at the reactor. There is
>> no free lunch obtainable from comparing low grade power (heat) to extremely
>> high grade power (pulsed charges).
>>
>> For instance if pulse creation expends 50% more energy than grid AC - but
>> is absolutely required for success, then one cannot logically ignore the
>> loss and claim OU when much or all of the gain is required to make the
>> pulses initially. IOW - one cannot assert that the net energy of producing
>> a complex waveform should not also include all of the losses.
>>
>> High grade power is special - very special, and the losses have to
>> included to calculate net gain.
>>
>> Thereforw to answer your question specifically, anyone can buy a simple
>> AC wattmeter from Amazon for 20 bucks to do the job of ascertaining real
>> input power from the grid. It is beyond belief to suggest that this was not
>> done.
>>
>>
>>

Re: [Vo]:REVISED Letters from Fleischmann to Miles

[David L. Babcock]

I read all the intro stuff you added, in front of the letters, found a
couple of small possible errors. Are you still interested in error checking?

I have been somewhat unavailable, cold, whatever, but am available if you
need...

Yours,
Dave B


On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 9:30 AM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> Mel Miles found some more letters from his correspondence with Martin
> Fleischmann. He sent them to me. I scanned them and added around 200 pages
> to this document:
>
> Fleischmann, M. and M. Miles, Letters from Martin Fleischmann to Melvin
> Miles, R. Carter, M.C.H. McKubre, and J. Rothwell, Editors. 2018,
> LENR-CANR.org.
>
> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/Fleischmanlettersfroa.pdf
>
> (If you click on this link and you do not see "Revised May 2018" on the
> first page, press Refresh.)
>
> The content is mostly the same as it was before. You may find that
> puzzling gaps in the correspondence have been closed. Some letters said
> things like: "My response to your numbered questions follow . . ." where
> the numbered questions were missing. (1998-07-03, p. 218)
>
> One revelation is the abominable behavior by the management at China Lake,
> described in 1997-05-12, starting on p. 152. See especially the memo on p.
> 158. It is depressing.
>
> I added a funny comment by Fleischmann to the introduction:
> "P.P.P.P.P.P.S. You may think that I am a very suspicious person. Of
> course, this is absolutely correct." (1999-11-19)
>
> - Jed
>
>

Re: [Vo]:Still campaigning for cold fusion

[David L. Babcock]

Jed:

The Google stats were interesting. I found it puzzling that the "interest"
graph doesn't reflect the "downloads" graph much.  I wonder, did your terms
for that search specifically reject searches for the program called
coldfusion (cold fusion?)?
I imagine that the program had hugely more hits than cold fusion/LENR, and
also believe that it has dropped off in popularity quite a lot. This slide
down would hide the LENR data under its avalanche.

Dave B


On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 2:41 PM, Jed Rothwell  wrote:

> From time to time, Google Alerts brings me a positive statement about cold
> fusion. I sometimes respond to the author. An example is below.
>
> I seldom respond to attacks or misrepresentations.
>
> Overall, Google Alerts for cold fusion and other indicators have dropped
> off. See:
>
> http://lenr-canr.org/wordpress/?page_id=1213
>
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Subject: Robert Huggins' cold fusion research
> To: micha...@stanford.edu
>
>
> Greetings. I was pleased to see you mention the work of Robert Huggins
> here:
>
> https://www.stanforddaily.com/2018/04/19/april-19-on-this-da
> y-in-stanford-history/
>
> He and his grad students Gur and Schreiber published 10 papers about cold
> fusion, including some in peer reviewed journals. Here is one from a
> conference proceedings:
>
> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SchreiberMrecentmeas.pdf
>
> Cold fusion was ultimately replicated by hundreds of scientists at over
> 180 major laboratories such as Stanford, China Lake, Los Alamos and BARC.
> Hundreds of peer-reviewed papers were published describing these results,
> along with ~50 papers describing failed experiments. You will find 4,438
> papers on this subject here:
>
> http://lenr-canr.org/
>
> Unfortunately there was -- and remains -- tremendous opposition to the
> research because of academic politics. The mass media, Nature, Scientific
> American and others claimed that the effect was never replicated. The
> reputations of the scientists who replicated or worked in this field were
> trashed. Nobel Laureate Julian Schwinger was one of them. He wrote:
>
> "The pressure for conformity is enormous. I have experienced it in
> editors’ rejection of submitted papers, based on venomous criticism of
> anonymous referees. The replacement of impartial reviewing by censorship
> will be the death of science."
>
>
> http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/SchwingerJcoldfusiona.pdf
>
> It is a tragedy.
>
> - Jed
>
>
>

RE: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion is waning

[David L. Babcock]

Yes. Small but convincing.

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jed Rothwell
Sent: Thursday, February 8, 2018 4:48 PM
To: Vortex
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Interest in cold fusion is waning

Did the graph show up? Can people here see it?

This discussion group software is a little out of date. A little, as in . . . 
20 years?

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:Article on approaches to energy storage

[David L. Babcock]

You and I concur on all the details of a workable solution -it was just that I 
thought I clearly read that it was a flexible structure…
Ol’ Bab

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jed Rothwell
Sent: Tuesday, October 31, 2017 7:55 PM
To: Vortex
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Article on approaches to energy storage

David L. Babcock <olb...@gmail.com> wrote:

I read the hole-in-water one. All BS, and stupid. To get a “head” the hole has 
to be not just empty when the seawater enters, it has to have a rigid shape. 
But when empty, and 100 feet deep, the upward pressure on the bottom will be 50 
psi . . .

I believe you are envisioning something like a single structure. A gigantic 
bathtub or ship hull. I do not think that is what this "hole in the ocean" will 
be. It will resemble a dike in the Netherlands or New Orleans, below sea level. 
Or like a earthen dam. No doubt some water will leak through the walls but 
earthen dams work well and do not leak much.

Water is let into the structure in one place only, where the generator turbines 
are located. This is like putting turbines in one part of a dam and forcing all 
of the water to go through them.

There would be no "upward pressure" and no structure to push up. It is just a 
large lake that happens be located in the ocean. If you were to go to an island 
and dig a pond in the middle of it, digging until it goes below sea level, you 
would have a similar structure. The walls and bottom of the pond would be rocks 
and sand, not anything that can pop up.

You could build a similar structure next to a large lake (such as one of the 
Great Lakes) or the Hudson River. It would be large hole that extends well 
below the surface of the lake or river, located perhaps a kilometer away from 
the lake.

- Jed

RE: [Vo]:Article on approaches to energy storage

[David L. Babcock]

I read the hole-in-water one. All BS, and stupid. To get a “head” the hole has 
to be not just empty when the seawater enters, it has to have a rigid shape. 
But when empty, and 100 feet deep, the upward pressure on the bottom will be 50 
psi, or mega-tons total (wild guess – somebody could waste time doing the math) 
over the whole structure. It would pop up out of the water, leaving a slight 
depression if any (no head). Put more realistically, as it was pumped out by 
the wind turbines output, it would slowly collapse upward. How does something 
this dumb make the light of day?

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: Jed Rothwell
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 9:37 AM
To: Vortex
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Article on approaches to energy storage

Pumped storage is popular in the mountainous parts of Germany. They have "6,806 
MW" of pumped storage capacity:

https://www.hydropower.org/country-profiles/germany
That doesn't tell you much though, does it? 6,806 MW for how long? A half hour? 
One day?

In Belgium they are talking about building a large hole in the ocean for pumped 
energy storage. Seriously. See:

https://www.kcet.org/redefine/belgium-may-build-hole-in-the-ocean-to-store-energy

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:History of cold fusion in Italy. Retrograde performance: maybe the Coyote rules?

[David L. Babcock]

I am struck by a curious parallel between many investigational endeavors 
in science, the 'soft sciences', near science, and maybe-science (cold 
fusion may or may not be in this last category). All are troubled by a 
sequence comprising initial success, followed by a long irregular slope 
down into no-results-above-noise.


The soft sciences are abuzz right now with a huge failure-to-replicate 
of all kinds of findings that were thought to be rock solid. Sort of as 
though the more you look, the less you see. Wish I could give a link. 
Google on failure to replicate.


In parapsychology, there is the researcher who after years of at first 
very good results, then worse results with the same tests, until at last 
results so bad she decided it was all mistaken.


In comes the coyote, the Trickster.  In "/The Trickster and the 
Paranormal", (George Hansen) /-which I did not read, but read about-a 
good argument is made that err, "something", is at work screwing up the 
works, by either giving good results where none is warranted, or 
subverting good results over time to discredit/stymie/trick the 
researcher.  I take the liberty, at lest for this exposition, of taking 
this out of the paranormal "box" and jamming it helter skelter into 
particle physics. Or whatever physics covers LENR.


For a brain transition enhancer, think poltergeist.  (If you check into 
the 'Glitch in the matrix' Reddit, there is a lot there to suggest 
trickery in the numerous reports of moving or hiding small objects.)


Enter Rossi. A prime target. The master of trickery, of (a least!) the 
trickery of moving small objects, gives Rossi a tantalizing glimpse of 
fame and fortune by shuffling atomic particles around. And keeps it up 
until Rossi is backed into a serious corner, totally tricked. Totally 
conned, he is a prime target because he is himself a showman, a conman.  
Other researchers suffer only frustration and, some, heartbreak. Less 
hubris?


This does not tell us whether cold fusion is real or not, but it may be 
implying strongly that successfully deploying it may involve a major 
paradigm shift, perhaps of the nature of a core of true believers at 
each power site, in constant prayer (or chanting, candle lighting, 
pigeon slaying).



On 8/30/2016 8:33 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

[snip]

If the E-Cat worked earlier do you really suppose Rossi
retrograded performance with time?


Yes, this seems likely. Patterson and several other researchers forgot 
how to make working devices. Rossi reportedly destroyed his older 
reactors to make new ones out of the parts. He did not keep a record 
of what he had done. I think it is possible he forgot how to produce heat.


It is also possible everything was fake from the start. I do not have 
enough information to judge.


- Jed





---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: [Vo]:Reality check of the day

[David L. Babcock]

Another simple explanation is that Rossi'S recipe died. He had enough 
(sporadic?) heat events to drive him into a frenzy of invention, into a 
dead end. And an ego that didn't permit him to back down. Sort of like 
Trump...


Ol' Bab


On 8/10/2016 1:01 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

Jones Beene > wrote:

Thus, it is very likely that Rossi “could have” and even “should
have” witnessed thermal gain at some point in his progress,
especially before Focardi died . . .


I agree. I think there is some evidence for this. It is not conclusive.


In any event, it is hard to imagine what happened to make Rossi
decide not to demonstrate gain if he was able to do so - for IH.


Rossi is unfathomable. I guess the simplest explanation would be that 
he has nothing. In that scenario, I cannot imagine why he filed a 
lawsuit. He should have taken the $11 million and run.


- Jed





---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: [Vo]:Dehumidifiers and temperature

[David L. Babcock]

My comment below is so clouded by time that it may be worthless, BUT

When air conditioning arrived (in the 30s, 40s?) it was a trade-marked 
innovation, driving all the competition under because it /conditioned/ 
the air, not just chilled it. It combined air cooling with 
dehumidifying, with greater comfort the result. If some current air 
conditioners don't dehumidify enough, well, poo on them... The trade 
mark got broken by indiscriminant usage, I suppose.


Ol' Bab, who was an engineer.


On 7/27/2016 2:08 PM, Stephen A. Lawrence wrote:
I'd have to guess you live in an area that isn't very humid. Otherwise 
you wouldn't have to ask. :-)


First, the books on the bookcases in the livingroom stop growing mold 
on their spines if you drop the humidity.  (Otherwise, here in the 
Ottawa River Valley, they sure do, just sitting there during the summer.)


Second, you stop feeling constantly sticky.

Third, if you're hot (like, you exercise or something) instead of just 
getting soaked with sweat which refuses to evaporate, you actually 
cool off a bit.


An aside:  Many years ago, back in college, I repainted apartments as 
a summer job.  With the air conditioner running, the paint wouldn't 
dry (or wouldn't dry before we left, anyway).  To get it to dry fast 
enough to allow us to do touchups and whatnot before we left, we 
consistently had to shut the AC off.  (So much for an AC drying things 
out.)  Which leads to our next point:


Used in conjunction with a conventional airconditioner a dehumidifier 
can make things "feel" much more pleasant.  Make no mistake -- 
conventional air conditioners reduce the *absolute* humidity 
substantially but their impact on the *relative* humidity (which is 
what makes everything feel sticky) is considerably smaller, as they 
reduce the temperature of the air at the same time they remove 
moisture from it.  Their impact on the *relative* humidity is only as 
large as the difference between the internal temperature of the air 
(as it comes off the evaporator coils) and the final temperature of 
the air in the room (after it mixes with uncooled air).


Some air conditioners may not cool the air significantly below the 
target temperature, in which case the relative humidity may actually 
be raised as a result of their operation.


Dehumidifiers, OTOH, are designed to have a large temperature drop at 
the evaporator before the air is warmed again by the condenser, and 
they always reduce the relative humidity.



On 07/24/2016 01:59 PM, David Jonsson wrote:

Hi

How does dehumidifiers like this one work?
http://www.conrad.com/ce/en/product/1377991/Dehumidifier-20-m-0011-lh-White-Blue-renkforce-HD-68W 



I assume that my personal experience of room temperature will 
decrease if I run one (provided I have sufficiently high humidity). 
But I also realize that the temperature of the air rises after being 
dehumidified. What is the net subjective human effect?


David








---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: [Vo]:Article: These Incredible Saltwater Batteries Are Designed To Store Renewable Energy

[David L. Babcock]

I downloaded some specs. (Doesn't seem to be linkable, I didn't try.)

The S20 and S30 "stacks" are about 3.3 cuft, 260 lbs, 48 volts from 8 
modules (I would not infer 6 volts/cell; picture unclear). Not intended 
for vehicle use, too many lbs/watt, but cheap and safe ingredients. I 
did not get prices, but it does seem they are available.


Charge and discharge currents are low, voltage appears "mushy" 
(subjective -I did not compare to lead acid).  Efficiency 80 to 90 % at 
the currents they graphed. 2 KWH delivered when charged for 10 hr, 
discharged over 20 hr.  Max current 8 or 10 amps in the graphs.


Sounds good for solar, except maybe poor for heavy sustained loads. Not 
clear about battery maintenance costs, probably low.


Ol' Bab. who were a engineer...



On 9/25/2015 7:49 PM, Jack Cole wrote:


Now we can clean power even when the sun isn't shining or the wind 
isn't blowing. If we're going use renewable power in a big way, we're 
going to need better battery storage. Because solar and wind are 
intermittent sources of energy, they need to be backed up for when 
they're not there, because, ...


http://flip.it/h6SCz




---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: [Vo]:Even the most reliable industrial meters can fail - cats - fenced-in Texas

[David L. Babcock]

Steven, you could move to Texas (!! NO don't move to Texas !  Too hot). 
Here in San Antonio, AFAICT every subdivision provides, and insists on 
the maintenance of, fences surrounding the back yards. About 6 feet 
tall, wood, cat-proof at least when new.  Unless your cat likes to 
jump!  A Texas thing, perhaps.  From my back slab patio I can see the 
neighborhood a little. Wow. SO different from the North where we were. 
The fences even block my access to the public area behind, a grassy 
half-wild flood easement area.


Ol' Bab, who was an engineer, and could see his neighbors...


On 8/28/2015 9:16 PM, Orionworks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:


Jed,

I hope you can get the county to respond to your latest measurement. 
In regarding to city matters, I think you are likely to get a better 
ending than what our household is currently dealing with.


We have a new neighbor who is threatening to call the city police or 
animal control to get one of our two cats, an outdoor cat, Charm, 
incarcerated and us fined if he ever finds our cat on his 2nd floor 
balcony again in the future. Charm is a rescue we picked up at an 
Idaho rest stop about 3 years ago. She is very adventurous. We learned 
long ago we couldn't keep Charm incarcerated in our home all day. She 
needed outdoor time or else there was hell to pay. This neighbor moved 
into our neighborhood a year ago. Ironically, the previous home owner, 
he purchased the house from, who is now deceased, liked Charm's 
visitations to his 2nd floor balcony. IOW, our cat, Charm, felt 
accepted at that house. But now, a new cat-unfriendly neighbor has 
moved in and apparently he really hates cats. He believes all cats are 
destructive predators - bird murderers. We want to respect our new 
neighbor's desire that our cat no longer visit his house. But that is 
difficult to accomplish when the new neighbor does not want to accept 
from us articles like cat repellants (free of charge) that would give 
our cat incentive not to visit his property and 2nd floor balcony 
anymore. Apparently, our new neighbor would prefer to wait for our cat 
to once again visit his balcony so that he can call animal control and 
get Charm incarcerated and us fined.


[snip]

Regards,

Steven Vincent Johnson

OrionWorks.com

zazzle.com/orionworks






---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Re: [Vo]:OT fountain of youth?

[David L. Babcock]

The way to the stars better be an under-$1000 Portal in every village.  
Spaceships are too frigin expensive to move any but a tiny fraction of 
our billions.


Ol' Bab


On 5/14/2015 7:21 AM, Craig Haynie wrote:

On Thu, 2015-05-14 at 07:07 -0400, Jed Rothwell wrote:

God forbid this should work. The last thing we need is a bunch of old
people cluttering up society. [...]

You know, if we could find a way to the stars, then suddenly, there's
plenty of room for anyone who has ever lived, and anyone who wants to
live forever.

Craig






---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

Re: [Vo]:OT fountain of youth? Portals and ships

[David L. Babcock]

You fail to factor in the enormous sheer tonnage of steel and other 
metals required. Confounding that it's not just peak oil we're at, it's 
peak nearly everything.


Jed would argue, I think, that enough energy combined with engineering 
and plant materials -renewables- will make feasible cheap replacements 
for almost any sort of spacecraft components.  I argue that the tonnage 
does you in. Visualize an ocean liner for every small town, a fleet of 
them for every city.


One -big- fleet making round trips till the job is done? Time. Unless 
FTL. This is Vo, but...


Ol' Bab


On 5/14/2015 1:03 PM, Craig Haynie wrote:

On Thu, 2015-05-14 at 13:01 -0500, David L. Babcock wrote:

The way to the stars better be an under-$1000 Portal in every village.
Spaceships are too frigin expensive to move any but a tiny fraction of
our billions.

Expensive? That thinking is so... 20th century. :)

Cheap energy makes everything cheap.

Craig







---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

[Vo]:How do I make my dog-bone love my steam engine?

[David L. Babcock]

How Do I Make My Dog-Bone Love My Steam Engine.

In which certain principles are supposed true.


*The principles:*(I do not say these things are true, only that they 
seem to be, given what we've been reading...)


1. After Dog-Bone startup is achieved, power output is increased as 
temperature is increased, and vice versa. Presumed monotonic, but 
probably not linear.


2. This defines an operating range bounded by too cold -no power, and 
too hot -destruction.


3. To get into the operating range external heat (power) must be applied.

4. The power generated in the upper end of this range is a generously 
larger than any applied power. Thus turning off this applied power input 
-in this upper range- /could never reduce/ the temperature.


5. A further point is required by our premise:

We are trying to run a steam engine, not a co-generation plant or an 
endless sink for fire extinguisher bottles, and therefore the only 
logical cooling source is the steam engine itself, that is, the boiling 
process that feeds it.



*Howthen?*

Let us start by ignoring the steam engine. How do we stabilize our Bone 
at some desired temperature, and thus power level?


Our operator, a nimble nerd with three hours on a simulator, has a 
single control, the valve for the feed water. The simulator has already 
taught him that the fire goes out if fed too much water, and he risks 
his chance for continued employment if he feeds too little.


The Bone has already been brought up, steam is being generated, the 
plant engineer is hovering. Carefully our tyro replaces the current 
shift's hand with his own, notes that the temperature is increasing, and 
gingerly increases the water flow, then a little more.. Good! Wait, back 
it off, now it's getting cold! A few tense minutes go by, the training 
takes hold, and the plant engineer relaxes.


The boss says Increase generated steam 20%. Our tyro glances at the 
current power/temp table, and eases /down/ the flow to cause a moderate 
rate of temperature rise -then, slightly panicked as the temperature 
increases more and more, throws more water on and overshoots. The Bone 
turns off. Or would have, but the plant engineer has used the override. 
Fifth time this month -Gotta fine tune that simulator. he thinks.


An analog for all this is a sloping alley and a broom stick. You must 
transport the broom stick up the alley (toward the high -hot end) 
balanced on end, on your hand. Stopping and hovering where required, 
moving hotter or colder as required. If you intend to go one way, you 
must first move the other, to get the stick falling the right way. Much 
like steering a bicycle. Hardly tricky! And yes a controller can easily 
be made to do this, but that would ruin my story!



*Add the steam engine back in -and it gets harder.*

(Here I assume I want electricity.)

Your steam is there and plentiful, the engine runs really pretty, the 
generator generates. Now double the load: throw another big light bulb 
across the wires.


Yuck! The steam engine slows down, and voltage and frequency drop. But 
the steam pressure does rise, which slows the rate of heat transfer from 
the Bone, raises the Bone's temperature and thus increases power 
generation. Nice: negative feedback, tending to stabilize Bone 
operation. Unless wild overshoot... (the Bone /is /probably grossly 
non-linear)!


Our nimble nerd now has a much harder job: not only does the broom stick 
always want to fall over, but there are external disturbances -the 
unpredictable load changes- which are like sudden breezes/winds/gales on 
the upper end of his stick, which he must account for. Probably we'd 
better get him, beside the bone temperature meter, meters for steam 
pressure, engine speed, output watts. A little advance warning! But no 
matter what, he cannot keep the /voltage/output acceptably flat for the 
modern household.


Well some of this, you may point out, can be mitigated by a 
steam-governor on the engine, a large steam reservoir, a bigger 
flywheel, feedback on the generator windings (to correct the voltage). 
Note that the increases in energy storage (flywheel, reservoir) are 
equivalent to adding capacitance to a circuit within a loop, and so may 
be very helpful, or problematic, depending on loop parameters.


The governor and the winding feedback are themselves control loops, 
inside the larger nerd-loop*. They both work to speedup the change in 
energy transfer (which poorly expresses what's going on). Note for now 
that the governor causes (in our current example of a large load 
increase) the steam flow to quickly /increase/, rather than decrease. 
Result: the Bone's temperature decreases, not increases, and we have 
positive (bad) feedback. Possible fatal to our nimble nerd's composure, 
especially for the opposite case of a sudden load decrease.


*Or maybe not inside the nerd loop after all: our nerd is fighting to 
control the Bone's operating point primarily, and only secondarily is he 

Re: [Vo]:melted alumina tube

[David L. Babcock]

Very sharp -just means that the power is applied nearly 
instantaneously. Not any more power, just whatever equals E2 /R.  
However the temperature gradient would indeed be higher, so the wire 
would expand sooner than the matrix around. If the matrix temperature 
rises and falls a lot during a small part of a line cycle, stress might 
get pretty high. But isn't the wire a near-zero expansion/temperature 
material?


Ol' Bab -who was an engineer...


On 3/17/2015 4:02 PM, Axil Axil wrote:
In these triac light dimmers, the rise/fall times are very sharp maybe 
in the nanoseconds. That means that a lot of instantaneous power is 
being feed into the heater wire as the power pulse starts when the 
leading edge waveform is used.


On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:56 PM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com 
mailto:janap...@gmail.com wrote:


According to Jack, the reaction did not happen in the fuel, but in
the insolating layer. The fuel composition does not matter. IMHP,
what matters is the exact nature of the heater current.

On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 4:38 PM, Robert Ellefson
vortex-h...@e2ke.com mailto:vortex-h...@e2ke.com wrote:

Jack,

Fantastic! I’m really stoked to hear of your progress.  I
think your powder recipe sounds very interesting, and I would
love to know more about the details of the reactants.  It
sounds like you’ve come up with a mixture which may contain
one or more key ingredients not yet identified as being of
primary significance to the high-gain modes of these systems.

If I may fire away:

What size Fe2O3 and TiH2 grains were present?

Is this mixture generally not hygroscopic, and therefore is
curing the reactor’s sealant a simple matter as compared to LAH?
Are you tumbling or milling these reactants, or performing any
other notable processing steps, prior to putting them into the
reactors?

Thanks for sharing, and keep up the great work!

-Bob

*From:*Jack Cole [mailto:jcol...@gmail.com
mailto:jcol...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 17, 2015 1:08 PM
*To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com


*Subject:* Re: [Vo]:melted alumina tube

Bob,

The input power was ~260W.  I don't know what the R value of
the insulation is.  I had the cell surrounded by high purity
alumina powder and covered with a thin sheet of ceramic
insulation.  I used standard 120V AC 60hz with a triac type
dimmer switch (chops the waves starting at V=0).  I'll have to
check with the manufacturer to see what the remaining 5% of
the tube is.  The heating element was Kanthal A1.  It's
strange that the heating element was able to completely melt
at points.  In the past, it has always failed before melting.

I was using INCO type 255 nickel, TiH2, LiOh, KOH, aluminum
powder, and Fe2O3.  Good idea on the small amount of fuel
which should cause some localized melting.

The fact that the fuel was a small diameter cylinder seems to
suggest that it was fully expanded in the tube and shrunk down.

Jack

On Tue, Mar 17, 2015 at 2:02 PM, Bob Cook
frobertc...@hotmail.com mailto:frobertc...@hotmail.com wrote:

Jack--

It looks like you had a pretty good reaction.

What was the input power?  What is the R value of the
insulation on the outside of the electric coils?  What was
the nature of the electrical input--frequency etc? And
what is the electrical heating element material?   If you
have an acetylene torch, see if you can melt a piece of
the tube that melted.

The tube may have had glass fibers incorporated in order
to improve strength.  You indicated it was 95% pure.  What
was the other 5%?

What was you fuel mixture?  You may want to try a small
fuel loading and see if the same intense reaction
happens--all else the same.

Try the test with a iron core instead of a fuel load and
determine if there is an apparent magnetic field which
would hold the iron core in position when direct current
is applied to the heating coil.  An alternating current
would of course change the magnetic field and may make for
null reaction conditions.

 Try 2 or 3 t/c's if you can--one inside and two outside
to get a measure of the temperature gradient along the
tube.  Also another easy way to determine temperatures is
the use of thermal sticks on accessible surfaces.  Welders
use these to determine preheating temperatures.  They may
provide a cheap temperature measure for you.

Keep it shielded--good luck.

 

Re: [Vo]:OT: what if everybody got free cash?

[David L. Babcock]

What average family?  Our household (2 people) gets $3000/month and we 
are on the edge of disaster!

Ol Bab


On 12/15/2014 1:50 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

Ken Deboer barlaz...@gmail.com mailto:barlaz...@gmail.com wrote:

My calculations (as an amateur) are based on about $2000/month per
household. Assuming 90 percent of 115 million US households would
need it, that would amount to roughly $2.5 trillion needed
annually. At present, direct Government outlay for basic 'welfare'
programs is at minimum $.5 T, much of which would be 'saved'.


That does not include Social Security, $0.7 T. The plans I have seen 
eliminate Social Security and also welfare. $2,000/month per household 
would be more than the average Social Security benefit, which is $1,300.


I think $2,000 is too much to start with, given today's technology.

- Jed





---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
http://www.avast.com

Re: [Vo]:OFF TOPIC Everyone in Japan has a smartphone -- everyone!

[David L. Babcock]

My browser couldn't translate.  Synopses please?
Ol' Bab


On 11/4/2014 8:24 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

See:

http://amenities-news.com/wp/?p=8345



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection 
is active.
http://www.avast.com

Re: [Vo]:Determining the transmittance . . . of semitransparent materials at elevated temperatures

[David L. Babcock]

Jonas:

I seem to remember that the 4th power thing is due to (largely due to?) 
the strongly rising center of the frequency as temperature increases.  
Thus, the radiated power through a narrow window (visible band is only 1 
octave) is probably only proportional to the /first/ power, at least 
when that window is well below the peak power frequency.


If true, any error contributed by that window rapidly becomes 
unimportant as temperature increases.


Ol' Bab, who was an engineer...


On 10/14/2014 12:07 PM, Jones Beene wrote:

5)  The Rossi device is obviously NOT a blackbody radiator since it
glows in the visible range due to transmissivity in the visible range. The
internal shadows are proof of that
6)  It is therefore wrong to use Stefan–Boltzmann without prior
calibration for the difference, which can be substantial




---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection 
is active.
http://www.avast.com

Re: [Vo]:Determining the transmittance . . . of semitransparent materials at elevated temperatures

[David L. Babcock]

(Response in line)

On 10/14/2014 12:51 PM, Jones Beene wrote:


*From:*David L. Babcock


I seem to remember that the 4th power thing is due to (largely due 
to?) the strongly rising center of the frequency as temperature 
increases.  Thus, the radiated power through a narrow window (visible 
band is only 1 octave) is probably only proportional to the /first/ 
power, at least when that window is well below the peak power frequency.


What frequency are you assuming is peak power? I would have suspected 
that the higher the photon frequency, the more power, such that 
visible should be peak.


I get a glimmer that I'm off, here. I visualized the peak as well above 
the visible, in the ultra-violet. Unlikely, as nobody even hints that 
the perceived color was blue-white. So maybe I'm right, but not right 
about this particular case.


ØIf true, any error contributed by that window rapidly becomes 
unimportant as temperature increases.


Yes, if true - but this depends on your assumption of peak power. Can 
you elaborate on why you think it would be longer wavelength rather 
than shorter?


Probably a typo here, as I was thinking the peak to be much /shorter/ 
wavelength.
I may not be all that wrong. The cutoff is so many nm, the window 
doesn't tint ordinary light (I've seen some alumina), and the experts 
agree that the effect is small at the lower power used for cal.  Or at 
least small enough to be easily calculated-out.


Thanks


Speaking of calculated-out, wouldn't the tester be using established 
equations (or tables from same) for alumina, which then would certainly 
account for any likely range of T?  Then the short-coming of calibrating 
at the wrong temperature is reduced -magically!- to a second order 
effect.  Perhaps 2% or 10%.  Not enough to disapear the over-unity, just 
a small embarrassment.


Thank you for the polite exchange
Ol' Bab


---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection 
is active.
http://www.avast.com

Re: [Vo]:another Law breaker?

[David L. Babcock]

Thank you.  Also, Noted that the 2nd law is not violated.

Ol' Bab


On 10/7/2014 1:34 PM, Ian Walker wrote:

Hi David

I did a search for good-bye-second-law-of-thermodynamics

It came up in google with this
http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/2014/09/good-bye-second-law-of-thermodynamics.html

I clicked on the link in google and it took me to the page that I 
quote the first few lines of:


# 


  Home http://www.laserfocusworld.com/content/lfw/en/index.html

#


Good-bye second law of thermodynamics?


  Good-bye second law of thermodynamics?

09/02/2014
By John Wallace 
http://www.laserfocusworld.com/content/lfw/en/authors/john-wallace.html

Senior Editor

I was quite happy last week to post a news item about a colorless 
transparent luminescent solar concentrator developed at Michigan State 
University 
http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/2014/08/solar-collector-is-transparent-colorless-doesn-t-block-the-view.html (East 
Lansing, MI), as I have had a long-term fascination with luminescent 
solar concentrators. So why am I so fascinated by such devices?


One reason is that at first glance they seem to violate the second law 
of thermodynamics 
http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/print/volume-49/issue-06/features/chillers-and-coolers--breakthrough-of-optical-refrigeration--las.html, 
which says that the entropy of any isolated system never decreases. In 
the field of optics, the second law sorta translates in a hand-waving 
way to the fact that the étendue (solid angle multiplied by beam 
cross-section) of a light beam can never decrease: for example, one 
can't focus a low-quality laser beam to a spot as small as that that 
can be produced by a high-quality laser beam (given the same lens used 
for both, with lens pupil optimally filled)...


Kind Regards walker


On 7 October 2014 18:52, David L. Babcock olb...@gmail.com 
mailto:olb...@gmail.com wrote:


Exact link not found. On inspection, no such article found in
their many lists.
Pulled?

Ol' Bab



On 10/5/2014 9:33 PM, Jones Beene wrote:

Every week it seems, there is a new assault around the edges
of the 2nd
Generalization of Thermodynamics...


http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/2014/09/good-bye-second-law-of-therm
odynamics.html



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast!
Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com






---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection 
is active.
http://www.avast.com

Re: [Vo]:another Law breaker?

[David L. Babcock]

Exact link not found. On inspection, no such article found in their many 
lists.

Pulled?

Ol' Bab


On 10/5/2014 9:33 PM, Jones Beene wrote:

Every week it seems, there is a new assault around the edges of the 2nd
Generalization of Thermodynamics...

http://www.laserfocusworld.com/articles/2014/09/good-bye-second-law-of-therm
odynamics.html




---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection 
is active.
http://www.avast.com

Re: [Vo]:NY Times: Sun and Wind Alter Global Landscape, Leaving Utilities Behind

[David L. Babcock]

I went to the Wattsup.. source article, and found that the problem 
(apparently) is undersized transformers at the towers.
This is NOT a reflection on the feasibility of wind power, but on the 
so-called prowess of German engineering.


But yes, the engineers maybe were pressured by management to cut costs, 
went all gooey in the head.

Jeez.

Ol' Bab, who was an engineer...



On 9/15/2014 10:17 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

Quoting this article:


  Offshore Wind power: Even Germany Can’t get it Right


According to Breitbart, Germany’s flagship Bard 1 offshore wind
farm has turned into a bottomless money pit, with stakeholders
frantically lawyering up, scrambling to pin the blame and ongoing
money hemorrhage onto other parties.


http://wattsupwiththat.com/2014/09/13/offshore-wind-power-even-germany-cant-get-it-right/



My thought – if even the Germans, with their legendary high precision 
engineering skills, can’t make offshore wind work, surely it is time 
to pull the plug on this technically infeasible dead end?



Let me rephrase that slightly:

My thought – if even the Japanese, with their legendary high precision 
engineering skills, can’t make nuclear fission reactors work, surely 
it is time to pull the plug on this technically infeasible dead end?


Let me add:

After trillions of dollars of RD, subsidies for 70 years, one 
accident at Fukushima lost more money and destroyed more assets than 
any other source of electricity in history, and forced the shut down 
of the entire industry. In one day, nuclear power was revealed as the 
most dangerous and expensive source of energy.




---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection 
is active.
http://www.avast.com

Re: [Vo]:Problem with glare at Ivanpah CSP plant

[David L Babcock]

I was a circuit designer, starting with tubes, then transistors and then 
programmable gate arrays. Didn't break into gates until long after I 
wanted to.


As a teen, was dabbling in relay logic, telescope design, astronomy, 
geology, theology, fossils...


Now am into peak oil.  Greatly recommend The Archdruid's Report.


Ol' Bab  (old Babcock  - I coined this in my 40s, now look at me)

PS  Am glad you got to see my post: I haven't seen it yet. Maybe only 
you has seen it.



On 4/10/2014 4:16 PM, Bob Cook wrote:

OlBab--
What kind of engineer were you?
Older Bob?

- Original Message -
*From:* David L Babcock mailto:olb...@gmail.com
*To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com
*Sent:* Thursday, April 10, 2014 1:55 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Problem with glare at Ivanpah CSP plant

It is a little more complex. There is a distance from the
(presumed flat) mirror such that the angular extent of the mirror
is about the same as that of the sun (1/2 deg). From there out the
intercepted flux decreases, by the square of the distance.

From the birds view, at that distance it sees the whole sun fill
the mirror. Any farther out the image is bigger than the mirror
-only part of the sun is supplying heat.

If the mirrors are curved, then each mirror will have a hot focal
point, but not super hot: again it is limited by the angular
extent of the sun and the mirror. A ideal mirror will project an
image of the sun on the boiler (or bird, if at focus), and the
intensity is that of sunlight multiplied by the square of the
ratio of the two angular extents. Maybe 10 or 20 to 1? WAG here.



As Bob points out, the nimbus effect strongly suggests that the
designers were aware of a possible problem and made sure mirrors
in standby don't all point at a single point, or even parallel.

Ol' Bab, who was an engineer.

Re: [Vo]:Problem with glare at Ivanpah CSP plant

[David L Babcock]

It is a little more complex. There is a distance from the (presumed 
flat) mirror such that the angular extent of the mirror is about the 
same as that of the sun (1/2 deg). From there out the intercepted flux 
decreases, by the square of the distance.


From the birds view, at that distance it sees the whole sun fill the 
mirror. Any farther out the image is bigger than the mirror -only part 
of the sun is supplying heat.


If the mirrors are curved, then each mirror will have a hot focal point, 
but not super hot: again it is limited by the angular extent of the sun 
and the mirror. A ideal mirror will project an image of the sun on the 
boiler (or bird, if at focus), and the intensity is that of sunlight 
multiplied by the square of the ratio of the two angular extents. Maybe 
10 or 20 to 1? WAG here.




As Bob points out, the nimbus effect strongly suggests that the 
designers were aware of a possible problem and made sure mirrors in 
standby don't all point at a single point, or even parallel.


Ol' Bab, who was an engineer.



On 4/10/2014 11:06 AM, Bob Cook wrote:
The mirrors would not be focused at one spot when idle.   Also it is a 
good idea to reduce global warming by directing the light back into 
space instead into the ground.

- Original Message -

*From:* Jed Rothwell mailto:jedrothw...@gmail.com
*To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com
*Sent:* Thursday, April 10, 2014 7:59 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Problem with glare at Ivanpah CSP plant

ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com mailto:cheme...@gmail.com wrote:

Efficiency/85% heat transfer efficiency @ solar boiler/90%
mirror efficiency = 1700 megawatts airborne flux, THAT IS A
GOOD BIRD ZAPPER


Close to the tower it would be. When a bird flies a few meters
away from the surface of one mirror, it is no different than
flying in full sunlight or in sunlight reflected from glass or water.

I do not know at what distance from the tower the beams of light
join together to be brighter and hotter than ordinary sunlight.

I expect birds would not approach the tower because it is so bright.

Millions of birds are killed by smoke from coal plants, and steam
from coal, gas and nuke plants.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Plastic detector find -Radar story

[David L Babcock]

I worked on Navy electronic contracts and had several opportunities to 
watch huge pulsed RF energies sprayed out of big waveguides onto our 
equipment, testing for radiation susceptibility, out on a rooftop.  
Huge because I have no clear memory of how much, but it was certainly 
more that a MW peak.  We all stood around, in a not-that-big semicircle, 
while the lead Navy tech person horsed stuff around and turned the power 
off and on.


It may be that I can't remember what the power level was because of 
those exposures?  My life has been sometimes weird since then...


Ol' Bab, who was an engineer.



On 2/28/2014 11:22 PM, Terry Blanton wrote:

On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 9:13 PM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote:


You and Terry are electrical engineers, do you guys think that is a good
idea to put your head beside a 30,000 watt pulsed microwave radar while
drinking a Pina Colada??

No.  It's either a Mai Tai or pure rum, 151 pf.  You'll get cataracts
regardless.

Re: [Vo]:Increasing probability of Rossi being real upwards, to 35%

[David L Babcock]

On 2/11/2014 9:32 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
Blaze Spinnaker blazespinna...@gmail.com 
mailto:blazespinna...@gmail.com wrote:


http://bettigue.blogspot.de/

This guy has very cool stirling engines.  I wonder how much heat
energy you need to run these, though perhaps they could be
optimized for a Nanor device.


A thermoelectric chip would probably be more practical. A Seebeck 
calorimeter is a gigantic thermoelectric chip. I recommend this for 
small power levels.


- Jed

Jed, the miserable 10% efficiency of thermoelectric devices would make 
this a near worthless system, even as a table curiosity.   The 
heat-to-heat COP would have to be /way/ over 10:1


Ol' Bab

Re: [Vo]:[OT]Star Object Ejection Process

[David L Babcock]

The bad news negates itself:

Considering C of E, a miss-aimed craft could not apply more energy to a 
planet than was originally applied to the craft to bring it up to speed. 
A continent-melting crash requires that more than a continent-melting 
supply of fuel has been applied to/used by the craft.


Another consideration:  The craft has to carry with it a similar amount 
of energy, stored, to use for deceleration. And twice that again, to 
come home.


If you account for different depths of gravity wells, it comes out 
different, but not much.  We were talking about speeds up towards light, no?


So conservation of energy, having obliterated CF (a little gratuitous 
snark), now moves on to ruin our dreams of visiting other stars.


Dave B.


On 1/10/2014 5:14 PM, David Roberson wrote:

That is amazing!   -snip-
I have never considered how much damage a space craft traveling near 
light speed would inflict, but apparently it would be bad news.


Dave

Re: [Vo]: ATTENTION: request for expertise...

[David L Babcock]

Beg to differ:  We are having a mad desire for CHEAPER blood testing. 
$1.20/stab is too much at 3 to 4 per day.  Medicare only covers 2.


The pain?  Very little, often none.

Ol' Bab



On 10/25/2013 1:15 PM, Terry Blanton wrote:

I ran across this article which might be of interest:

http://www.pddnet.com/news/2013/10/measuring-blood-sugar-light

On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint
zeropo...@charter.net wrote:

Attention all in the Vort collective:

I hope you all don't mind if I take a few bytes of bandwidth to request some
help with the RD I've been working on... which is noninvasive blood glucose
measurement using RF/microwaves.  The attached pic shows the results for
just one of the diabetics tested; for this one we could get a good
calibration on 82 data points (taken in Feb 2010), and then the calibrated
equation accurately estimated the remaining 120 samples which were taken
thru March.  Follow-up testing in June also gave good results with little
degradation. Predictive accuracy over time is a major accomplishment in this
work.

We have a database of ~87GB, most of which was on five Type-1 diabetics over
the course of 2 months; clinical lab-grade blood chemistries for most of
that data.  During RF scans we are also taking skin temperature every 100
millisecs...

Our investor has given us until the end of the year to improve our
calibration/predictive algorithms as much as possible before we market the
technology for the next phase of development.  We are currently at
+-20% accuracy for ~80% of our samples (~1000 samples on the 5 test
subjects).  The technology is not optimized, so this may be all we can hope
for with the current sensor design and algorithms.  But, we need to use the
time left to make whatever improvements we can...

I am in search of some very bright individuals with expertise in
mathematical modeling and bioelectromagnetics; perhaps statistics, but
targeted toward medical device testing.  Knowledge of RF Scattering
Parameters (S-Params) which come out of a modern Network Analyzer (Agilent
PNA-5230) would also be very helpful. We already have some very extensive
MatLab code which builds mathematical models, one term at a time, and it may
be better to add to this rather than creating from scratch.  IF you're very
competent and like a real challenge, and want a break from the E-Cat fiasco,
then please contact me @:
m...@rfstx.com
or
markiver...@charter.net

There are now 366 million diabetics in the world, and they have been in need
of a truly painless way to measure their blood sugar.  You could be one of
the keys to solving the challenges which make this a reality for them...

Thanks for your time...

Now back to your regularly scheduled E-Cat frustration!
:-)
-Mark Iverson

Re: [Vo]: ATTENTION: request for expertise...

[David L Babcock]

Go for it!  I hope for success.

Depending on what is driving the current errors, your tech could be very 
useful right now, because what's needed, over a day, is more the trends 
than the absolute measurement.


Your device with a daily calibration against a conventional stick 
would perhaps give really useful results, even if the tech's current 
accuracy never get bettered.


Ol' Bab



On 10/26/2013 12:59 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint wrote:

Ol' Bab,
Beg to differ:  our noninvasive tech would allow you to test 100 times a day
if you wanted, without ANY pain, ever, and for pennies/test. The device
would cost a third of what you spend on test-strips each year, and it'll
last for 3 to 5 years; do the math...
-Mark

-Original Message-
From: David L Babcock [mailto:ol...@rochester.rr.com]
Sent: Saturday, October 26, 2013 6:28 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]: ATTENTION: request for expertise...

Beg to differ:  We are having a mad desire for CHEAPER blood testing.
$1.20/stab is too much at 3 to 4 per day.  Medicare only covers 2.

The pain?  Very little, often none.

Ol' Bab



On 10/25/2013 1:15 PM, Terry Blanton wrote:

I ran across this article which might be of interest:

http://www.pddnet.com/news/2013/10/measuring-blood-sugar-light

On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 2:29 AM, Mark Iverson-ZeroPoint
zeropo...@charter.net wrote:

There are now 366 million diabetics in the world, and they have been
in need of a truly painless way to measure their blood sugar.  You
could be one of the keys to solving the challenges which make this a

reality for them...

Thanks for your time...

Now back to your regularly scheduled E-Cat frustration!
:-)
-Mark Iverson

Re: [Vo]:Parallels between Ball Lightning and LENR

[David L Babcock]

It was twilight, among towering clouds, high over some mid state when I 
saw a bright signal flare sweep up to about the plane's altitude from 
clouds below, and fall back. Then a second, from a different location. 
No lightning. Paths and velocities very projectile-ish, not rockets. But 
considering the altitude, definitely not signal flares.


Unless they were tracer artillery shells. Wildly unlikely, but so 
-they say!- is ball lightning.


As for those links, #3 conveniently ignores all the recorded cases of BL 
going through walls and windows. #2 has NOTHING to do with the subject, 
and #1 obviously is a hyper-skeptic jumping through haystacks to find an 
excuse not to address the facts. Marsh gas, anyone?


Say, doesn't our host Bill keep an extensive collection of BL sightings?


Ol' Bab


On 8/27/2013 2:25 PM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote:

It's interesting to note that the still unexplained and controversial
phenomenon of ball lightning is derided as mass delusion, e.g., --

Is Ball Lightning Just a Shared Hallucination?
http://www.universetoday.com/64560/is-ball-lightning-just-a-shared-hallucination/

- despite that probable ball lightning has also deluded video cams, e.g.,

UFO Shoots Missile with beams - Vandenberg Air Force Base
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SO4FhJ3mjrE

Challenging established orthodoxy endangers reputation, career, income, ...

This recent (open source) paper --

Interrelation between ball lightning and optically induced forces
http://iopscience.iop.org/1402-4896/88/3/035402

-- begins with the observation -

The phenomenon of ball lightning (BL) remains unresolved
up to the present moment. No satisfactory explanation of
enigmatic natural phenomena (observed and examined by
scientists for many centuries) has been found up to now.
More than 200 different BL theories are known, and their
systematization and classification have been carried out.
However, neither of them can even approximately explain the
enigmatic and intriguing behavior of BLs, which to a certain
degree reminds one of the behavior of some highly organized
matter. Physicists cannot imagine an object, submitting to
conventional physical laws, whose properties coincide with
BL properties. This is something perfectly new.

It seems that the same laws of social psychology are operating
to discourage investigations of BL and LENR.

BTW, the following paper --

Tracks of Ball Lightning in Apparatus?
J. Condensed Matter Nucl. Sci. 2 (2009) 13–32
http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/LewisEtracksofba.pdf

- speculates that micro-BL might explain the topography of
pock-marked, streaked, ..., metal surfaces seen in LENR.

Any opinions on the reality of ball lightning?

-- Lou Pagnucco

Re: [Vo]:Face-Palm moment: Essen et al did it again! [Abd's open letter]

[David L Babcock]

On 6/26/2013 1:24 PM, Paul Breed wrote:
In normal AC system DC bias is VERY rare.  anytime a transformer is 
involved the dc bias goes to zero.
Any AC powered device with a transformer in the front end of the power 
supply will likely fail in a catastrophic way if any significant DC 
bias is present.
(You drive the transfomrer magnetic material into saturation and it 
stops being a transformer and becomes an air core inductor... with 
poor coupling


If fact, for DC the winding becomes just a wire, with a certain low 
resistance, and the DC voltage rapidly heats it to destruction.  As noted.


Ol' Bab

Re: [Vo]:A simple question, take 2

[David L Babcock]

My hand can easily feel the radiant heat from my flat screen.  This is 
stronger where whiter (brighter?).  And so, yes I felt something.  
(Did not try other body places, did not notice other sensations.)


If I hypothesize that the radiant thermal signal is out-shouting the 
real signal, then would like to see your symbol surrounded by a 
considerable area of background. The background should be a fine pattern 
or gray tone that emits -as carefully as you can set it up- the same 
radiant heat as the symbol, per sq in.


I suggest a fine dot pattern, as this avoids considering the gamma 
matching problem.  Just generate the background pattern to the same 
black pixel/white pixel ratio, as the symbol.  A blank ring may want to 
be put around the symbol to balance that extra dark edge, but this would 
perhaps be trying too hard.


Symbol width should be no more than (say) 1/5 the image width.

Yours,
Ol' Bab


On 6/24/2013 7:08 AM, John Berry wrote:
Ok, Maybe no one is ready, since I have had zero testers give results 
positive or negative.


But I want to give this a fresh chance due to apparent technical 
difficulties the first time, excuse my persistence.


http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/7185/xens.png

http://aethericsciences.net78.net/user_images/even%20better.png

Open the image, and feel with your palm (hand flat with light tension 
on your skin) moving hand toward and away from the center of the 
image, feel for any sensation such as heat/warmth, cool or pressure, 
tingle or buzz etc...

Also you might feel energy elsewhere, eyes, or on face etc...

And you might feel nothing since it's just an image and logically an 
image can't have a physical effect, because, well they just don't.


Of course if you do feel something then you can accept that as equally 
logical since everyone knows that protons are particles (or packets of 
electromagnetic disturbance) and the space is a sea of quantum waves 
and virtual particles etc..


But give your answer, positive, negative, or unclear/inconclusive (too 
little to call, but not quite nothing).


Give your answer in private if you like.

Or just refuse to look thorough my telescope because of what the 
church of science would say if they found out.

But if so are you afraid of a negative result, or a positive one?

John

Re: [Vo]:Lattice Energy on Russian laser production of Tritium -an exerpt

[David L Babcock]

Holy cow what a mess. I was copy/pasting from a pdf, perhaps Thunderbird 
can't handle that...


Ol' Bab


On 6/13/2013 8:38 PM, David L Babcock wrote:

Re: [Vo]:Lattice Energy on Russian laser production of Tritium -an exerpt

[David L Babcock]

*I found this nugget in a huge haystack of words mostly talking up WL.  
Gave up less than half way through, there is much more more, this is 
only one of the cited.  (Could not get the text below bigger  -some 
artifact of pdf?)


Abstract: A method is disclosed to fabricate a Palladium cathode that 
can be electrolyzed in heavy water and  stimulated with a laser at a 
predetermined wavelength to produce apparent excess power; the 
fabrication method involves cold working, polishing, etching and 
annealing the Palladium prior to electrolytic [loading with] 
**Deuterium. Loading is accomplished with the cathode sitting in a 
magnetic field of 350 Gauss. After loading the cathode with Deuterium, 
Gold is co-deposited electrolytically on the cathode. When a coating of 
Gold is visible on the cathode, co-deposition is halted and the cathode 
is stimulated with a low-power laser with a maximum power of 30 
milliwatts. The thermal response of the cathode is typically 500 mW with 
maximum output observed of approximately 1 watt. The effect is 
repeatable when protocols are followed and has been demonstrated in 
several laboratories.*


Ol' Bab


On 6/13/2013 6:14 PM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote:

Lattice Energy has just posted an analysis of the Russian experiment
showing laser induced neutron-free synthesis and decay of Tritium in
nanoparticle colloids suspended in D2O 

Lattice Energy LLC - June 13 2013
New Russian Experiments Further Confirm Widom-Larsen Theory of LENRS
http://www.slideshare.net/lewisglarsen/lattice-energy-llc-new-russian-experiments-further-confirm-widomlarsen-theory-of-lenrsjune-13-2013

Russian paper referenced is -

Laser-induced synthesis and decay of Tritium under exposure of solid
targets in heavy water
http://arxiv.org/abs/1306.0830

-- Lou Pagnucco

Re: [Vo]:Over 40 messages posted by Joshua Cude posted on June 4 - here here

[David L Babcock]

What he said.  I whacked, unread, those forty odd, and here I am reading 
and deleting, one-by-one, forty or so responses.  Enough of this.


Ol' Bab


On 6/4/2013 12:15 PM, Robert Ellefson wrote:


 ... at what point does this incessant (IMO) kind posting behavior considered

 a nuisance and hindrance to on-going Vortex discussions? Now, if Cude is

 genuinely making a good contribution I'll have nothing more to say on

 this matter. But it would be interesting to hear a consensus on how much

 of a genuine contribution Cude is allegedly making - from other Vort members.

Now that I am subscribed to the list, I have the ability to filter people

such as Cude directly.  However, there is no reasonable means of filtering

the large volume of useless responses to his postings.  So, as when I read

the vortex web archives only, I am left to scan for names I recognize 
that I


suspect may have something to contribute through the noise.  This is 
tedious


and fundamentally error-prone.  The result is that I typically delete 
en masse


the majority of related discussions.  I don't

Because I quickly elected to simply ignore pseudo-skeptics such as Cude,

I cannot make specific claims as to the contents of his posts, only 
that I do


not care to read them.  However, I can claim that his posts are in 
fact quite


disruptive to the flow of discussion and hence to the purpose of this 
list.


If I were moderating this list, I would not tolerate it.

-Robert

Re: [Vo]:Defkalion Apply heat?

[David L Babcock]

Apparently there's two threads of thought here:

a:  Apply heat to make the process start, and more heat to take it to a 
higher cop. Stop the heat (or increase cooling) to bring the process 
back from cascade and ruin. This one seems to describe what Rossi has, 
and what Dave Roberson is modeling, and makes a lot of sense to me.


b:  Apply heat to make it stop.  May involve recalescence.  Confusing.  
Would seem to be inherently stable, no?  (If it gets too hot, it slows 
itself down.)Interesting, but doesn't seem to apply to Rossi's rig.


Anybody wish to clarify?

Ol' Bab



On 6/1/2013 10:39 AM, Vorl Bek wrote:

On Sat, 1 Jun 2013 10:28:03 -0400
Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:


Vorl Bek vorl@antichef.com wrote:



No crazy apply more heat to make it stop nonsense.


Why is this nonsense?

I don't have the eloquence to explain, but if you ask over at
moletrap.co.uk, or wavewatching.net/fringe, they can clear it up
for you.

Re: [Vo]:On deception. 3rd EE

[David L Babcock]

I join Terry and Jed on this.  EE, 1962.
I might hesitate, in view of the subversion of some holy pronouncements 
of the physics establishment, but sign I would.



Ol' Bab



On 5/31/2013 12:46 PM, Terry Blanton wrote:

Well, I graduated from Georgia Tech in 1977 with an EE, am a
registered professional engineer and manage a group of mostly EE
consulting engineers and I agree with Jed.

On Fri, May 31, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Yamali Yamali yamaliyam...@yahoo.de wrote:

Jed wrote: I do not think it takes long for an electrical engineer to
conclude that there is no possibility of fraud in these tests.

I bet you won't find any EE with any experience in the business who would
sign such a statement.

Re: [Vo]:new hypothesis to confute regarding input energy in Ecat test - 300Hz ripple

[David L Babcock]

I see a circuit that generates DC with 300 Hz ripple.  Good idea, ripple 
is so small that many DC loads would need no capacitors at all.


Be interesting to know the wt/power ratio, compared to the usual single 
phase and three phase cases.


Ol' Bab


On 5/29/2013 11:05 AM, Rob Dingemans wrote:

Hi,

snip

Here is an interesting circuit: http://www.nbtv.wyenet.co.uk/6-fasen.gif
with these voltage and current 
http://www.nbtv.wyenet.co.uk/3-fasenspanning+stroom.jpg
It converts the three 50 Hz phases into one output of 300 Hz :-) , 
which is a lot easier due to the smaller capacitor needed to be 
directed into DC!


Kind regards,

Rob

Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Speculation about hotCat CB radio RF generation

[David L Babcock]

If plenty of power is available, and stringent RF interference specs 
don't need to be met, the simple wires will work fine.


But I must admit an engineer would always use a coax for such a task.
But maybe not an engineer who is trying to obsfucate


On 5/29/2013 4:47 PM, Arnaud Kodeck wrote:


To bring CB signal, the wires have to be shielded. The impedance must 
match in all system. Attenuation of CB signal must be kept as low as 
possible ... The simple wires from the black box to the eCat doesn't 
meet those requirements. It's common sense for an EE.




*From:*Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* mercredi 29 mai 2013 22:43
*To:* vortex-l
*Subject:* Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Speculation about hotCat

Why else would Rossi say that the output of his control box was a 
trade secret?


A DC feed of a internal heater is not a trade secret.

On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 4:34 PM, Arnaud Kodeck 
arnaud.kod...@lakoco.be mailto:arnaud.kod...@lakoco.be wrote:


Axil,

I doubt that the actual design of the eCat is able to bring CB range 
signal from electrical heating system. Or where else ?




*From:*Axil Axil [mailto:janap...@gmail.com mailto:janap...@gmail.com]
*Sent:* mercredi 29 mai 2013 22:08
*To:* vortex-l


*Subject:* Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Speculation about hotCat

EMF simulation in the CB range will form nanoparticles (aka clusters). 
Potassium is the best candidate for the formation of dynamic NAE 
through nanoparticle formation when stimulated by EMF.


On Wed, May 29, 2013 at 4:02 PM, Arnaud Kodeck 
arnaud.kod...@lakoco.be mailto:arnaud.kod...@lakoco.be wrote:


Ed,

I think you forget to add the EM stimulation controlled by the black 
box between wall socket and the eCat.


Arnaud

Re: EXTERNAL: Re: [Vo]:Speculation about hotCat CB band

[David L Babcock]

Whoops! Hit the send button instead of spell check.

... obfuscate things, hide IP.  Might take a chance at spilling some CB 
band junk just to mislead casual observation.


Jeez, this sounds like we're beating the fraud horse.  No, no, it's back 
to how does he stimulate/control ECat.


Ol' Bab


On 5/29/2013 4:47 PM, Arnaud Kodeck wrote:


To bring CB signal, the wires have to be shielded. The impedance must 
match in all system. Attenuation of CB signal must be kept as low as 
possible ... The simple wires from the black box to the eCat doesn't 
meet those requirements. It's common sense for an EE.

Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Re: [Vo]:Torbjörn Hartman describe- add DCV

[David L Babcock]

Simple, simple...
Take 47 lbs of lead acid batteries, configured for what ever DC voltage 
you want.

Connect this in series with the AC lead.  Hide in wall. Do not touch.

Can also use any usual DC power supply with floating output.  (I don't 
think you can buy a power supply that does NOT float except perhaps some 
wall warts.)  The PS current rating must be high enough to take the sum 
of both DC and AC -serious capacitance may have to be added to ensure this.


If we are still talking 3 phases, gotta do this for each phase. Wow!

Ol' Bab



On 5/27/2013 3:28 PM, Andrew wrote:

You mean an annoyance like the advance of the perihelion of Mercury? :)
OK, once again you furiously misunderstand. The isolation capacitor is 
in series between the grid transformer and the wall plug. Behind the 
wall plug, downstream of that capacitor, a DC power supply is 
connected in a T configuration. It's possible to do this but you can't 
just attach a wire. Some circuitry is involved to provide a DC shift 
without compromising the AC and without blowing up the DC power supply.

Andrew

Re: [Vo]:Re: Constant temperature Operation of ECAT? Thermocouple construction

[David L Babcock]

A thermocouple is both a welded junction of 2 dissimilar metal wires, 
and (through usage) the temperature measurement system it is part of.


The system used to have 2 junctions, one for sensing and the second in 
an ice bath or other constant temperature reference. The difference in 
voltage drove current through a meter.  The second junction is now 
(generally) replaced by a low impedance reference voltage in the meter case.


An exception is when a temperature difference is to be measured, and so 
would use 2 junctions, but this seems overkill for the ECat case: why 
have a controlled 900 deg separate reference?


The usual solution for a control loop is to take the voltage (or current 
or digits) from the sensor, filter and amplify as needed, and compare to 
a reference voltage (or number).  Add lead, lag, voodoo, for stability.


Ol' Bab


On 5/27/2013 3:42 PM, Andrew wrote:
I guess the concept of a temperature-compensated reference voltage is 
a brand spanking new idea for you, old chum.

Andrew

- Original Message -
*From:* David Roberson mailto:dlrober...@aol.com
*To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com
*Sent:* Monday, May 27, 2013 12:39 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Re: Constant temperature Operation of ECAT?

Come on Andrew.  You need to research your old books on control
theory.  Where are you mounting that fixed voltage output
thermocouple you speak of?  The last time I checked the output
depended upon the temperature to which it is subjected.
Since your thermocouple will change readings as the device heats
up or cools, your reference will drift likewise.  This will force
the controlled device to head toward one direction or the other. 
This will be anything but constant old boy.

Dave
-Original Message-
From: Andrew andrew...@att.net
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Mon, May 27, 2013 3:22 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Re: Constant temperature Operation of ECAT?

What? In the control regulation, everything is represented as
either a voltage or a current (because it's, like, electronics,
duh). Normally, temperature comes out of a thermocouple and is
thus a voltage. The reference voltage, to which the actual
temperature voltage is compared in order to generate an error
signal for regulation, will be a fixed voltage representing the
set-point temperature, as _would_ be output by that thermocouple
at the set-point temperature. Why is this so hard for you to
understand?
Your characterisation of the ease of regulation of a system with
intrinsic positive feedback is grossly over-simplified.
Andrew

Re: [Vo]:Ekstrom critique of Levi et al. How over-estimate of power

[David L Babcock]

It's the band thing.
If e = 1 in the band which the camera can see, and significantly lower 
in the rest of the spectrum, then the equations they used will show a 
(perhaps markedly) higher power than was actually generated.




Or do I have it backward?  Damn!  this stuff is confusing.
Anybody out there with a still functioning brain?

I think such a weird e spectrum would very unlikely!

Ol' Bab


On 5/27/2013 8:25 PM, Harry Veeder wrote:


If they take emissivity = 1 then they are assuming the worst value for 
emissivity at all wavelengths. How will a lower emissivity in any 
range lead to an over estimation of power?

Harry

Re: [Vo]:The inanity of the hidden input power hypothesis

[David L Babcock]

Ol' Bab here -I was an EE.

outside the frequency range  -  I was going to say that circuit 
breakers trip on the magnetic effect of the passed current, not the true 
RMS, and also ignore the phase angle with respect to the voltage.  Need 
both for accurate power.


ALSO they are very inaccurate, because of need to be cheap cheap cheap.  
Even if you calibrate one, it won't hold vs time, temperature.


Ol' Bab


On 5/26/2013 4:20 AM, Andrew wrote:
Nice idea in principle, but if the power actually supplied lies 
outside the frequency range of the measuring equipment, then this 
won't work.
Come to think of it, are there any EE's on this list except for Duncan 
and myself?

Andrew

- Original Message -
*From:* Harry Veeder mailto:hveeder...@gmail.com
*To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com
*Sent:* Sunday, May 26, 2013 1:10 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Vo]:The inanity of the hidden input power hypothesis

No knowledge of the waveform would be required if a circuit
breaker were used which trips if more power is getting
in than Rossi claims.
Harry

Re: [Vo]:possible error in power-in calculation in Levi et al paper - power factor

[David L Babcock]

The pf effect must come from the control box, and makes sense.

IIRC the box uses triacs.  These take a chunk of each power sine and 
pass it on to the load.  The chunk has to start after a zero crossing, 
and continue all the way to the next crossing.  If the power desired is 
low; the delay is long, the current pulse (seen by the wall plug) is 
short and the phase of the current must trail the phase of the voltage.  
By some good fraction of 90 deg.


If the box contains a power oscillator (perhaps needed by the waveform 
spec) to feed the triac, than this does not apply.


Ol' Bab


On 5/26/2013 1:46 PM, Claudio C Fiorini wrote:

SNIP...
The problem remains: how is it possible that a heating resistor may 
produce such a massive phase shift with the result of a o.48 power 
factor. Inside the reactor there is no place for any complex 
electronic system of any kind, the hih temperature of 800+ degrees 
Celsius would destroy condensers and any soldering.

Re: [Vo]:Racing Hydrogen - choice of drive methods

[David L Babcock]

Andrew:

If you are generating electricity directly from heat -thermo-electric- 
then you are dead in the water.  The efficiency is terrible and the 
capitol cost very high.


If you are generating steam, and you need rotary motion, then of course 
you use a steam engine or steam turbine.


But then the question is how to couple the power to the wheels, and here 
it gets into details, like the weight, bulk, and cost.


Consider the Diesel locomotive:  Big generator, smaller motors in the 
wheels.

Stanley Steamer: direct drive.
A turbine may be dictated by several factors, and then the high cost of 
high speed gearing may dictate a generator/motors drive. A battery may 
be necessary for several reasons.


It gets complex.

Ol' Bab


On 5/26/2013 4:21 PM, Andrew wrote:
I'm not very versed in the engineering of heat engines versus 
electrical generators. If you want to use a heat source like the E-Cat 
(assuming it's as advertised with COP  1) for powering a drive train 
in a car, is it necessary to go through an electrical conversion and 
use electric motors; is it more efficient to go directly to a heat 
engine?

Andrew

Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test -how to melt ceramic

[David L Babcock]

I have no idea what it would take to ignite stainless steel, but this 
may be what happened.  A breech occurred, air entered, steel burned.  
Enough extra heat generated to melt the ceramic.


The chemical energy for this short event would be plenty, no need to 
have NAEs still operable in liquid state!


Ol' Bab, who was as engineer...



On 5/24/2013 2:38 PM, Edmund Storms wrote:
Please people, stay in the real world. The description Alex gives has 
no relationship to what has been described in the paper or to what is 
possible.  We have no way of knowing the melting point of that 
material claim to melt. We have no way of knowing how much melted. At 
the vary least, once the stainless steel container in which the Ni was 
located formed a hole, the H2 would escape and the nuclear reaction 
would stop. In addition, we do not know the melting point of the Ni in 
the container because it was reacted with a secret catalyst. In other 
words, we know nothing that would support such speculations.


Ed Storms


On May 24, 2013, at 12:17 PM, David Roberson wrote:


Axil,
You pose some interesting questions.  If what you suggest is true, 
then this form of LENR would be a bulk effect.

Dave
-Original Message-
From: Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com mailto:janap...@gmail.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Fri, May 24, 2013 2:12 pm
Subject: Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test

The other very important piece of the puzzle that this Rossi demo has 
revealed is how extreme the LENR can get. This tells us important new 
things about the LENR reaction.
When the E-Cat melts down, its temperature reaches at least 2000C. 
The melting point of the ceramic used is in that temperature range.
We know that ceramic is used in the reactor and that the LENR 
reaction can melt it. This is exciting.
At that temperature, the nickel powder and the AISI 310 steel has 
long reached its melting point.
The LENR reaction must be able to function in a liquid metal 
environment. The concept of an NAE supported in only solid material 
must be discarded.

LENR must function in liquid and vapor.
Riddle me that one batman.
Collective, in other words, I will be awaiting your theories.

SNIP

Re: EXTERNAL: [Vo]:My evaluation of the Rossi test -how to melt ceramic

[David L Babcock]

Well. Okay.  I DID say I have no idea..

Maybe AR piped in some liquid oxygen through one of those extra wires?

Ol' Bab


On 5/24/2013 5:30 PM, Edmund Storms wrote:
 David, have you ever actually heated stainless steel. I suggest you 
take a spoon from your collection in the kitchen and heat it to red 
hot.  You will find that the spoon will turn black but will not 
ignite. If you keep heating to a higher temperature, it will soften 
and bend, but will not ignite.  So tell me, why would you suggest the 
stainless in the Rossi device would ignite?


Ed Storms


On May 24, 2013, at 3:21 PM, David L Babcock wrote:

I have no idea what it would take to ignite stainless steel, but 
this may be what happened.  A breech occurred, air entered, steel 
burned.  Enough extra heat generated to melt the ceramic.


The chemical energy for this short event would be plenty, no need to 
have NAEs still operable in liquid state!


Ol' Bab, who was as engineer...

Re: [Vo]: ECAT Time Domain Response - radioactive scare

[David L Babcock]

My prediction:
So many oil dollars will jump on this possibility of unleashed 
radioactive doom that they will squash any progress in cold fusion.  
That aspect is not a particularly a good thing. But it will happen.


Abetting this will be the horde of semi-literate tea party types, ready 
to fear whatever the Koch brothers tell them to fear.


We will (after too long) be buying our heat gadgets from the Chinese, 
maybe on the black market.


Ol' Bab, who sometimes gets a bit pessimistic.



On 5/20/2013 7:27 PM, Kevin O'Malley wrote:

My prediction:
So many people will get enamored with this idea of cheap nuclear energy 
that they will squash any investigation into this danger.  That aspect 
is not a particularly a good thing.  But it will happen.

Re: [Vo]:Levi Hot Cat paper is a gem

[David L Babcock]

I dispute your COP 6 point. Dave Roberson has pointed out in a series
of posts that /in a thermally controlled heat generating reaction/ the
COP of 6 is about the best you can reliably aim for. Values above that
are too near thermal runaway, and of course lower COP is less
efficient.//A telling point alright, but not for /your/ case...

Looks like you are saying that if an experiment proves CF, then it
proves fraud. Oh please, just go away.

Ol' Bab



On 5/21/2013 2:39 PM, Jouni Valkonen wrote:
 On May 21, 2013, at 5:09 AM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.com wrote:

 This is a gem. 
 Indeed. This paper proves that Mr. Krivit's criticism on bad calorimetry was 
 utterly false but Rossi has a method to import excess electricity into device 
 that does not register on measurements. I.e. he has hidden wires.

 Rossi just keeps getting COP 6 with all his devices. I think that this is the 
 most telling fact. In earlier demonstrations having steam there was a good 
 distraction, but this demo tells directly that it is about falsified 
 electricity readings.

 I think that this is the reason, why science does not approve black box 
 demonstrations. They are too easy to counterfeit! It is just required one 
 David Copperfield for designing the good illusion.

 ―Jouni

Re: [Vo]:3rd Party Report Released - Angels on a pin

[David L Babcock]

There might be a dozen reasons why NOT water flow calorimetry, but the 
big thing here is, why bother?


They get a torrent of heat, /easily/ shown by IR to be far, far more 
than any that accepted science can explain away, and you want that last 
decimal place?


The question that was answered is, /is it real/?  The answer is binary, 
two-state, accuracy is not a factor.


But I think what you are really saying is that somehow hot water trumps 
IR, in the gut perhaps.  It's not separated from common sense basement 
engineering by several exponential equations.  And I think you are right 
in this, at least for a portion of the (persuadable) critics.


Ol' Bab



On 5/20/2013 12:04 PM, Jones Beene wrote:

 But the main issue - why they did not perform water flow calorimetry? 
That is a major question that needs to be answered after all of these 
months. Instead of removing doubts, which they could have done with 
water flow - they merely added more doubts.

Re: [Vo]:Hydrogen from plant sugar breakthrough reported

[David L Babcock]

On 4/5/2013 2:27 PM, Brad Lowe wrote:
Scientists at Virginia Tech are working on a breakthrough energy 
technology to convert plant sugars to hydrogen with efficiencies  100%.


http://scienceblog.com/62111/game-changer-in-alternatve-energy/

- Brad


This is all smoke, without an accounting of all the costs that may pertain.

Consider the windmill, driving electrolysis.  Converts water to hydrogen 
with no fuel input whatever, which could be taken to imply an infinite 
efficiency, and yet is barely (depending on subsidies) feasible for this.


Their technology may involve huge capitol outlay, horrendous polluting 
byproducts, very fast enzyme wear-out, difficult biomass procurement and 
processing, ruinous shifting of farm ecology...


All is gloom, we are doomed.

Ol' Bab

Re: [Vo]:EckhartTolle...spooky Here?

[David L Babcock]

On 3/29/2013 11:17 PM, Harvey Norris wrote:

Take your babbling shit elswhere, none of us want to hear it!


Beg your pardon, I'm fascinated.
But maybe it shouldn't be here...

Ol' Bab

Re: [Vo]:Nokia developing phone that recharges itself without mains electricity - virtual inductor

[David L Babcock]

On 3/25/2013 6:15 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote:

In reply to  Arnaud Kodeck's message of Mon, 25 Mar 2013 10:41:27 +0100:
Hi,
[snip]

50Hz antenna will make the phone very huge ...

No, you just need to use resonance, though I grant that a resonant circuit at 50
or 60 Hz would probably need large capacitors/coils.  Using electronics to mimic
a coil using a cap, would probably waste too much energy.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html


I would confirm this. The inductor current in these circuits is 
supplied by an amplifier, from the circuit's power supply.  This is why 
you will never find a power supply inductor (power inductor) implemented 
this way.


Regarding the charging, if you shift the source band up-spectrum to 
light frequencies, then all that's needed is a photocell and a small IC 
for voltage boost.  Probably get more charge too, even if the phone is 
usually in the dark...


Ol' Bab

Re: [Vo]:New electric car to compete with Tesla? -recharge stations

[David L Babcock]

I missed the part about 10 to 15 KV on the battery.  Changes the 
picture. As you noted a series/parallel connection scheme probably 
needed, unless you can imagine a 15 KV motor.  Now a multi-pole relay is 
needed, oil immersion (arc-over at 10KV is something like an inch in 
air).  All feasible but still pricey.  Too pricey just to get ten 
minutes charge time, except maybe for the polo set.


The current at each cell is now down to 100 amps.  10,000 small devices 
with 100 amp hardware on each, there may be a packing problem, ie, no 
room at the inn, or in the trunk.


This really is just a clueless flack's idea.  Or my imagination can no 
longer hack it...


Ol' Bab



On 3/9/2013 6:09 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote:

In reply to  David L Babcock's message of Thu, 07 Mar 2013 18:01:32 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]

Starts to look better, when not in driver's home.
I still have problem with 1.2 MW!  Car's system is very unlikely to be
over 480 volts at the battery, which implies 2,500 amps capability in
the battery hardware.

I suspect it is has lots of smaller batteries rather than a few large ones. That
means that during a quick charge, many(all?) of them are connected in series, to
allow charging at a very high voltage.
Since they quote 10-15 thousand volts, and a single cell is about 1.5 volt, I
would say about 10,000 cells in series (with possibly two or more of these banks
in parallel?)
At 10-15 thousand volts a current of 100 A would suffice, and they say that the
special cathode (nano-powder?) allows for high charging currents.
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:New electric car to compete with Tesla?

[David L Babcock]

I would guess a 1.2 MW mini super power station would cost more than 
the car.  As much power as the peak rating of 30 homes (each with 200 
amp service).


The only way you'll ever get 10 minute refueling is with battery 
swapping, or electrolyte swapping or similar.  Didn't somebody have an 
idea for replacing aluminum oxide (from a spent cell) with an aluminum 
ingot?


Ol' Bab


On 3/6/2013 7:37 PM, Patrick Ellul wrote:
What if the price of the car includes a mini super power station 
that works all day and is ready to supercharge the car very quickly?



On Thu, Mar 7, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com 
mailto:hohlr...@gmail.comg wrote:


On Wed, Mar 6, 2013 at 3:48 PM,  mix...@bigpond.com
mailto:mix...@bigpond.com wrote:

 Hypercharge technology means they recharge in 10 minutes at
10-15 thousand
 volts.

Regardless, it takes 1.2 MW per charge station.  Bollocks!




--
Patrick

www.tRacePerfect.com http://www.tRacePerfect.com
The daily puzzle everyone can finish but not everyone can perfect!
The quickest puzzle ever!

Re: [Vo]:New electric car to compete with Tesla? -recharge stations

[David L Babcock]

Starts to look better, when not in driver's home.
I still have problem with 1.2 MW!  Car's system is very unlikely to be 
over 480 volts at the battery, which implies 2,500 amps capability in 
the battery hardware.  Wow.  The station's current requirement could 
only be less if the car has a (completely unnecessary otherwise) 400 lb 
step-down box.  Bigger than a pole pig and much more expensive.


Okay, 400 lb is a WAG, but I bet not too far off.

An engineering nightmare.  The PR flack who dreamed this up... Geez, he 
could work for big bucks in free energy.



Ol' Bab


On 3/7/2013 4:21 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote:

In reply to  David L Babcock's message of Thu, 07 Mar 2013 15:35:14 -0500:
Hi,

I get the impression from their web site that there would be refueling stations
dotted around the country, analogous to the way gas stations are now. The range
of the vehicle is projected to be 1000 km (it weighs 2 tonne, which implies lots
of batteries), so they don't need to be *too* common.

Note also that the vehicle has two charging modes, one for a quick charge (at
suitable station), and also a home charging mode that takes longer (i.e.
overnight).

I guess that the intended purpose of the quick charge mode in combination with
the long range, is to make long trips feasible.

BTW just a thought of my own:- An adaptation of
http://www.rand.org/pubs/research_memoranda/RM2522.html might provide a means by
which charging stations could rapidly convert stored chemical energy into
electrical power for rapid recharges. (No idea how (in)efficient this would be).
[snip]
Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Russian meteors, correllated? Ans to Ed.

[David L Babcock]

Imagine a 1000 ton floating rock, with a one ton boulder orbiting it. 
Perhaps at 100 miles...  What's the orbital speed?  I don't have the 
formula, but I'll guess, oh, 1 ft/s. (1 ft/day? (Remember, if it's more 
than escape velocity, it's not really in orbit)).


Now, set our little system speeding through the inner planets at 10,000 mph.

Do the vector triangle for the boulder: one side is 10,000 mph, one is 1 
ft/s, and voila! the third side is 10,000 +/- 1/19,000,000 mph.  And so 
the direction is insensibly different from that of the rock. The two 
cannot possible seem to come from different angles, they are flying 
parallel.


But wait, they approach earth /hours/ apart.  Boulder's orbit radius 
must be a least 10,000 miles.  Now the orbital speed is 100x100 slower? 
(I'm assuming inversely pptnl to square of radius).


Don't even think about the Earth's movement during those hours.

The numbers and guesses are all wrong, but the result is so blatant that 
the right ones would make the demonstration no better.  And it saved me 
a lot of research.


If the objects are associated, they /must/ appear to have been moving 
parallel before getting very near the Earth. Otherwise they would all be 
exceeding their various escape velocities - and thus not related after all.



Ol' Bab



On 2/28/2013 1:19 PM, Edmund Storms wrote:


On Feb 28, 2013, at 11:07 AM, Alexander Hollins wrote:

if it were in orbit around it, there would have been an additional 
vector to its motion.  Tracking information verified a straight line 
trajectory from what I've read.  Good thought though.


If the orbit was as large as would be required to account for the 16 
hour difference between the meteor and the asteroid reaching the 
earth, it would look like a straight line based on the small amount of 
contrail that was visible. No other data is available as far as I know.


As for what the media says, are we to believe that at least three very 
rare events happened at nearly the same time? Is that conclusion less 
plausible than the one I propose? In any case, an orbit exists that 
would cause the effect, so I do not see how this idea can be rejected.


Ed


On Thu, Feb 28, 2013 at 9:19 AM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com 
mailto:stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote:


I suggested an explanation that apparently was lost in the
discussion. Suppose each asteroid has a swarm of smaller rocks in
orbit around it.  Suppose one of these rocks was in an orbit that
caused it to approach the earth from the opposite direction at
the time of the meteor strike in Russia. Overlooked in this
discussion was at least one other large meteor reported near
Cuba, which could have been part of the same swarm. This is
important because any close encounter with an asteroid might
result in the earth being bombarded by large rocks coming from
directions different from the path of the asteroid as the
asteroid gets close. This makes protection that much more difficult.

Ed



On Feb 28, 2013, at 9:06 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

I would point out:

1. The event did occur.

2. A causal connection between the two objects seems
exceedingly unlikely, since they came from different
directions at different times. No one has suggested how there
could be a connection, as far as I know.

3. Therefore it is coincidence, no matter how unlikely that
may seem.

- Jed

Re: [Vo]:Pumped storage hydroelectricity goes well with wind energy - electrolysis

[David L Babcock]

On 2/8/2013 5:04 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com mailto:eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:

I think this has been mentioned here before, but what about
diverting the unneeded power to drive electrolysis and capture the
hydrogen for later use in a generator that makes use of an
internal combustion engine or is sold on the consumer market?


A fuel cell would be more efficient than an internal combustion engine 
or gas turbine. There is ongoing research to develop that. I think at 
present this is not as efficient as pumped hydro storage (70% to 85% 
-- as I mentioned). It has the advantage that you can send the 
hydrogen by pipeline and recombine it closer to a big city where they 
need the electricity. That may have lower transmission losses than 
electric power lines do. Also pipes are cheaper and take up less space 
than high voltage electric power lines.


Do a Google search for electrolysis energy storage and you find 
stuff like this:


http://www.incoteco.com/upload/ENSFinalReport.pdf

- Jed


I read most of ENS Final Report and extracted some tidbits:

Electrolysis ranges from ~75% efficient for LV hydrogen to ~85% for 
HV hydrogen.  I did not wade in deeper to dope that out.  So, it's 
similar to pumped hydro, except that the efficiency of the fuel cell 
must be multiplied in.


The cost-to-implement in Denmark, 2008, was high, needing total relief 
from their 80% motor fuel taxes, to even consider. (Proposal was for 
hydrogen depots for vehicles.)


The Europeans (and us merikans I suppose) price their electricity 
minute-by-minute when figuring which utility owes what when the sun 
hides but the winds pick up.  This often results in a zero cost/MWHr, 
which is Important to Avoid.


If you inject hydrogen into the intake of a working Diesel engine (and 
adjust fuel/air ratio as required), it will slow down.  Engine has to 
reworked to deal with the low power-to-volumn of hydrogen.


Yours,
Dave B.

Re: [Vo]:Obama emphasizes energy - fracking next big scam/collapse

[David L Babcock]

The Peak Oil crowd has carefully analyzed the oil industry data, and 
fracking is going nowhere in the long run.  Short run? Sure we'll have a 
few years of lower natgas prices -getting them right now- but the 
prognosis is bleak.


Basically, the wells are very expensive, and the depletion rate of each 
well is /very/ fast.  As well the speculation factor is way over-stating 
the size of the possible fields.


I strongly encourage a look at the un-fevered data; Google Resiliance, 
peak oil.


Ol' Bab



On 1/21/2013 8:44 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:


Sadly, why gamble investment capital on a still unproven technology 
when another energy bonanza that involves completely proven technology 
is about to dramatically change the surface of the planet.


It is ironic to say this but the United States is on the verge of 
becoming the next Saudi Arabia within 5 - 15 years due to the wonders 
(aka horrors) of fracking, and other advanced technologies that will 
now allow us to extract huge vast reservoirs of fossil fuels in ways 
that had been impossible to do not all that long ago. No wonder Mitt 
Romney desperately wanted to win the election. He knew what was coming 
down the pipe line. What interesting coattails he would have been able 
to ride all the way to 2016 and beyond, and he wouldn't have to have 
done a damn thing to get reelected. Of course, Obama knew about the 
coming fossil fuel bonanza too. As such, Obama can afford to play lip 
service to all sorts of AE concerns while knowing full well the fact 
that he has secured a guaranteed way of making the United States 
independent of foreign/Arabian oil in just a few years. He's got to be 
feeling pretty chipper about that.


Of course we are probably going to lose the state of Florida to the 
fishes, and Oklahoma and Nebraska may soon hosts the next American 
deserts that curious tourists will visit on their vacation. Sure... 
those things might concern some republicans (and perhaps even a few 
democrats too) particularly when it comes to voting time again. but 
what the hey! If it happens, it happens. It wuzn't our fault. No! Really!


Regards,

Steven Vincent Johnson

www.OrionWorks.com

www.zazzle.com/orionworks

Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity

[David L Babcock]

Please!  Please do!
Ol' Bab


On 12/23/2012 6:23 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote:
BTW, there is no need to ban me. I will gladly unsubscribe and never 
resubscirbe again.
This will end when people stop destroying this forum with incessant 
off-topic posts.  It's not about what people in this group want, it's 
about civilized behavior and following the rules of this forum.

Jojo

- Original Message -
*From:* Eric Walker mailto:eric.wal...@gmail.com
*To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com
*Sent:* Monday, December 24, 2012 6:45 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty
concerning recent trolling activity

Jojo,

I've never added anyone to a killfile in my lilfe, but I'm doing
it now.  I hope Bill Beatty will ban you at some point, as you
appear to have no desire to get in tune with the wishes of the
people on this list and would prefer instead to try to steer the
threads towards your own purposes.  Until you are banned, as I
hope you will be, blocking you will have to be adequate for now.

All the best,
Eric


On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 2:36 PM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com
mailto:jth...@hotmail.com wrote:

As I was when people started calling the Bible a fairy tale
written by goat herders.  You feel that I have no right to
defend what I believe from lies, yet feel that Lomax has every
right to defend his from the truth.  Every one went up in arms
when I defended the Bible from lies; but when Lomax defends
his from the truth; that is OK and celebrated.  I wonder why
people are afraid to criticize islam.  Could it be that
muslims would not put up with it like Christians would turn
the other cheek?
I'm pretty sure that's it. People tiptoe around islam while
having a field day with Christianity.  Why?  They know they
can get away with criticizing Christianity, unlike with islam.
What exactly have I said about islam that is not the truth? 
That you consider that trolling?

Have I not provided evidence from muslim scholars of what I
said?  Have I not provided incontrovertible evidence that
muhammed is indeed a child molester who forcibly took a 6
year-old little girl barely out of diapers still playing with
dolls, and had intercourse with her when she was 9 years old. 
The great prophet, for whom great wars are being fought,

molested a 9 year old little girl.  It seems to me that those
who follow such a man would need to have his head examined. 
Yet he has the audacity to proclaim himself an expert.  LOL

Jojo

- Original Message -
*From:* Eric Walker mailto:eric.wal...@gmail.com
*To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com
*Sent:* Monday, December 24, 2012 1:49 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to
Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity

On Sun, Dec 23, 2012 at 9:44 AM, Peter Gluck
peter.gl...@gmail.com mailto:peter.gl...@gmail.com wrote:

(in contrast to those thoughtful contributors, such as
Abd, who simply feel the need to defend their religion
against blatant trolling).

Eric

Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty concerning recent trolling activity

[David L Babcock]

Can you herd cats?
Ol' Bab

On 12/23/2012 10:38 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote:

Can you guarantee no more incessant off-topic posts?
Jojo

- Original Message -
*From:* David L Babcock mailto:ol...@rochester.rr.com
*To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com
*Sent:* Monday, December 24, 2012 11:29 AM
*Subject:* Re: [Vo]:[OT] Sent a message of query off to Mr. Beaty
concerning recent trolling activity

Please!  Please do!
Ol' Bab


On 12/23/2012 6:23 PM, Jojo Jaro wrote:

BTW, there is no need to ban me.  I will gladly unsubscribe and
never resubscirbe again.

[Vo]:Hell yes I actually believe there are problems we can't solve...

[David L Babcock]

Sometimes things go wrong and they are just problems, answers are found, 
things improve.
And sometimes it's a dilemma, an answer, ANY answer, is not possible, 
and decline/catastrophe/bad stuff is inevitable.


The seemingly inevitable upward sweep of history is a transient blip, a 
tiny moment in the sweep of time, brought about by the discovery of the 
wonder of nearly free energy.  Now the oil is no longer cheap and the 
whole structure built on it will subside or even collapse, later or sooner.


Cold Fusion -I think it's real- will slow this down, probably reverse 
the decline for awhile, but the mindset  that we learned on the way up 
(that all we find is ours to exploit, without limit) will drive us back 
all the way down. Because a /lot/ of things are running out, not just 
oil.  This is a dilemma.  The only possible answers involve changing 
human nature.  Don't hold your breath.


Most of the radical new discoveries of the Industrial Revolution were 
the results of cheap energy, made possible by cheap energy, and they 
indeed came along every few years, easy pickings. This does not argue 
for the existence of an inevitable stream of discoveries (guaranteed by 
some benevolent God?) that will continue the great upward march forever.


Re many things running out,  I agree that we are starting to learn how 
to work around looming shortages in various critical materials, but many 
of these are going to prove hopelessly expensive to implement.  I offer 
phosphorus as an example: where do you find a replacement for that, 
feeding 7 billion people, when the mines run out?


Ol' Bab, who is a pessimist.


On 12/18/2012 12:59 AM, David Roberson wrote:
 ...Does anyone in this list actually believe that humanity is not 
capable of inventing the way out of it's problems?  If you are 
correct, then this will be the first time in human history that it has 
come true.  I chuckle at the concept that there are no new 
technologies that are awaiting that serendipitous discovery that comes 
along every few years out of the blue.  You and I do not know what it 
is at the moment, but it will come around like clockwork. ...


Dave

Re: [Vo]:OT (Holiday Spirit): Christmas Flash Mob... or Group Mind occasionally waking up? Flocking birds

[David L Babcock]

Last week it was my luck and great pleasure to stand by the side of a 
country road in deepening dusk, and watch perhaps 200 birds wheel and 
gyre for 3 1/2 minutes. They formed a wildly malleable globe, elongating 
on any axis at random, while moving on another axis.  There was no 
single leader. Several times a bird would break out in a new direction, 
and his near neighbors follow, forming a pointed protuberance which 
however soon sank back into the mass.  Real direction change seemed to 
be more of a mass decision, with all turning nearly together, and the 
lack of perfect sync causing the shape changes. I saw birds inside the 
globe sometimes going in quite a different direction, with no effect on 
the greater number.  I do not clearly recall whether the apparent 
density was greater in the center (uniform blob of birds) or at the 
edges (hollow globe), but I think the latter.


At the end the flight pattern gradually lowered, accompanied with 
greatly increased chatter, then rather suddenly they all swooped to the 
cat tails below.


I think they were having a ball, drunk with the power of flight, 
sociability and life.  Two days later they were gone, off South 
probably.  Getting cold here.


Ol' Bab

On 12/9/2012 4:29 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote:

In reply to  Jed Rothwell's message of Sun, 9 Dec 2012 14:42:32 -0500:
Hi,
[snip]

However, their ability to respond with speed
and precision to signals from others members of the flock is astounding.
Like many other biological phenomena, it seems almost supernatural.

..they only need to follow the bird in front of them, while keeping their
position to the right or left behind, as the case may be. This way the motion of
the flock leader propagates back through the flock.

Regards,

Robin van Spaandonk

http://rvanspaa.freehostia.com/project.html

Re: [Vo]:Why Smart Meters Produce Higher Bills - Ill informed BS

[David L Babcock]

OMG that article is mess of wrong and (some) right. Sheesh!

Wikipedia reminds me how the old meters work: they are sensitive only to 
actual power delivered, ignoring the inductive and capacitive parts of 
the loads.  They have a number of areas where errors can occur but so 
also do the new meters.  Neither is particularly biased to give higher 
vs lower power readings when they go in error.


For commercial heavy power users power companies can/do charge more for 
bad power factor, because high out-of-phase current, while not 
delivering power, still heats up the transmission lines, wasting power.  
This is not of concern here, for home users.


The surge currents caused by incandescent lamps, DC supplies with huge 
capacitors, and stalled motors, is easily followed by the old meters. Go 
watch your meter while running through a wash load.  Or when the fridge 
starts.


The inertia of the disc, if it had any effect at all, would go both 
ways, skidding when the current stops as much as it lags when it starts.


Heating elements do NOT have a turn-on surge of any significance, since 
they use nichrome, not tungsten.


The heart of his analysis is that fast changing loads are poorly 
recorded by the old meters and thus gave you a break on your bill.  
Bull.  Their time-domain information may be quite restricted, but the 
area under the curve remains the same.  Just a simple  filter.


I smell a hatchet job.

ps: health concerns, prodigious rf emitted.  The rf power involved 
is way way lower that the field from a close power line. Relax.



Ol' Bab, who was an engineer




On 12/10/2012 1:40 PM, Harvey Norris wrote:

--- On Mon, 12/10/12, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:


From: Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com
Subject: Re: [Vo]:Why Smart Meters Produce Higher Bills
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Date: Monday, December 10, 2012, 7:47 AM
Certainly, improved response time
would increase the accuracy of the
actual power measured.  I wonder if the smart meters
are also
measuring total power instead of only real power (kVA
instead of kW)?
If so, this would also increase the bill.

Good article, I have always wondered about this. First and foremost however is the very 
real issue of health concerns due to prodiguous rf issued by these devices. I lost all my 
bookmarks due to my motherboard crashing on my old computer, but San Francisco Tesla 
Society had a speaker on the subject who compared the effects to living near a high 
voltage line tower. If Karl sends it to me I will forward to vortex list. It would appear 
to me that that the old style meters are simply recording the amount of amperage being 
consumed, and take no measures to actually bill the customer for the real 
power being consumed.(amperage and voltage waveforms being out of phase on reactive loads 
means that the real power will be the cos of their phase angle difference) The old style 
meters then are just recording the apparent power which is the instantaneous amperage 
times the supply voltage, which does not significantly change during load 
applications.HOWEVER, I think
  that maybe someone told me that this was incorrect, that the old style meters 
DO incorporate a power factor correction in their billing. So that issue is up 
in the air for now. The explanation of the eddy current issue on the aluminum 
disc of the old style meters seems confusing at first as it might leave you 
thinking that if the amperage is constant, no eddy currents on the aluminum 
disc would exist. That would certainly be true for DC currents only, but since 
we are consuming AC currents, those eddy currents would also be continuously 
generated due to a continually changing magnetic field.
The inertia issue of the aluminum disc also seems appropriate. If the smart 
meter corrects for power factor I cant see why the bills are higher.

On Mon, Dec 10, 2012 at 3:30 AM, Axil Axil janap...@gmail.com
wrote:

http://rense.com/general94/meters.htm

True?

[Vo]:New article just crying for rebuttal

[David L Babcock]

At Resilience.org (was Energy Bulletin), the article Science's Evil 
Twin by Ugo Bardi.  This piece of trash takes the 'toxic science' approach:


http://www.resilience.org/stories/2012-11-19/science-s-evil-twin

I have enormous respect for the many contributors at Resilience, but 
this guy does damage to their image.


I dearly want to reply myself but I don't have the depth to pull it off 
-I am sure I would just look like a demented juvenile fan, and make it 
worse!


Oddly, I am quite sympathetic with the real problem CF will present to 
the whole (resilience, peak oil, peak everything, de-growth) scene.  By 
re-enabling the endless growth paradigm, CF will hasten (okay, may well 
hasten) the utter collapse of our civilization.  And maybe Dr. Badi sees 
that.  Or maybe he's just another Denier.


Anybody up for this?  At least go read it...

Ol' Bab  (Dave Babcock)

Re: [Vo]:A new economic system will be needed in the next 20 to 100 years - Easter Island

[David L Babcock]

On 10/9/2012 11:53 AM, Nigel Dyer wrote:
I had thought that they destroyed their own environment through 
overharvesting and overhunting, ie the population was to large to live 
sustainably. This is not a particualrly religious reason. I had also 
gathered that the statues etc were an attempt to appease their gods in 
the hope that the gods would get them out of the mess that they had 
got themselves into.   No Gods appeared to wave their magic wands. 
I've had a quick look at some of the summaries of Collapse and that 
seems to be what J Diamond says as well


Nigel

On 09/10/2012 14:36, Jed Rothwell wrote:

fznidar...@aol.com wrote:

The Easter Island society ran out of wood and could not fish. The 
society

died out.


They did not die out. They were still there a century or two later when
Europeans showed up. Granted, they were in dire straits. They destroyed
their own environment, apparently for religious reasons. See J. Diamond,
Collapse.

- Jed



Just read, in Nat. Geographic, article on Easter Island.  The best going 
theory now is apparently that the rats that the first settlers brought 
with them (as food stock, probably) were wildly successful. (No natural 
enemies).


They ate all the tree seeds and the forest died out.

Has the sound of truth.

Ol' Bab

Re: [Vo]:Good Alloy for Celani type reaction costs 5 cents : Chuck Sites

[David L Babcock]

Comment below

On 9/28/2012 2:39 AM, David Roberson wrote:

Hi Chuck,
[snip]

My supply is current limited and will not increase beyond what it is 
set for.  I would see my supply voltage drop toward zero if the system 
resistance were to head in that direction.


I am positive that I am reading the voltage and current across and 
through the cell.  On occasions I have recorded the open circuit cell 
output voltage as a function of time immediately after disconnect and 
it has interesting behavior.  This appears to be a quick way to test 
the electrolyte condition, but I have not put much effort into 
performing calibration.

[snip]
Dave


-Original Message-
From: Chuck Sites cbsit...@gmail.com
[snip]
 I hope your measuring the voltage and amperage going into the 
cell(s).  When I saw the heat, the current would shoot through the 
roof, just like somehow the resistance drops toward zero.


Best Regards,
Chuck



Chuck and Dave: BIG difference right there in front.

One of you is running the supply in constant current mode, and one in 
constant voltage.
If the resistance decreases, the first setup's input power will 
/decrease /in proportion (I^2*R); and the second, the input power will 
/increase /inversely (V^2/R).


So the question might be, does the temperature rise only because the 
input power rose, or did it start to rise before the power rose?


My apologies if this was already obvious.


Also, it strikes me that a sudden big resistance drop is sort of 
unthinkable if occurring in the bulk of the electrolyte. A flood of new 
ions zipping out from some small source (or if an area source, weirdly 
synchronized)?  But likewise with an interface change: If small, little 
effect; if big then weirdly synchronized.  But I never did any chemistry.


Dave B.

Re: [Vo]:US and China Team to Fight UFOs and USOs

[David L Babcock]

On 9/28/2012 11:55 AM, lorenhe...@aol.com wrote:

Now the way I see it, is if you take a good look at our
  [snip]
  Let's Chalk one up for Obama!
   
/HTML



I imagine that you are sincere.

Oh lordy that's depressing.


Dave B.

Re: [Vo]:New Lattice Energy on Hi-Temp Superconductivity LENR

[David L Babcock]

For any here puzzled-
Pointing out the obvious:
If, while temperature is rising, some increasing portion of a resistive 
conductor becomes superconductive, the overall resistance of the entire 
conductor will decrease. If this decrease exceeds an increase which 
temperature rise is causing at the same time, you get non-monotonic 
resistivity vs temp.


Ol' Bab

On 9/12/2012 1:36 AM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote:

Jeff,

The reports cited in the presentation are of hi-temp superconductivity (I
believe), rather than just non-monotonic resistivity vs. temp phenomena.

It may be worth looking at the recently reported hi-temp superconductivity
seen in fractal materials - e.g.,

High-temperature superconductivity: The benefit of fractal dirt
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v466/n7308/full/466825a.html

Fractals make better superconductors
http://www.nanotech-now.com/news.cgi?story_id=39593

Fractals promise higher-temperature Superconductors
http://www.stealthskater.com/Documents/Fractals_04.pdf

X-rays control disorder in superconductor
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2011/aug/31/x-rays-control-disorder-in-superconductor

Fractals boost superconductivity
http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2010/aug/13/fractals-boost-superconductivity

-- Lou Pagnucco



Jeff Berkowitz wrote:

To answer my own question: yes, here
http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/CelaniFcunimnallo.pdf on page 3, in item (3)
of the numbered list.

Of course, it could be some unrelated effect; but decreasing electrical
resistance with increasing temperature is very odd, and it certainly is an
interesting coincidence.

Jeff

On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 10:06 PM, Jeff Berkowitz pdx...@gmail.com wrote:


Lasers not necessary? Hasn't Celani been reporting a negative
temperature
coefficient of resistance that appears about the time his processed
wires
begin producing heat? I might have this wrong ...

Jeff


On Tue, Sep 11, 2012 at 9:59 PM, pagnu...@htdconnect.com wrote:


Low Energy Neutron Reaactions (LENRs)

http://www.slideshare.net/lewisglarsen
-- or at --

http://www.slideshare.net/slideshow/embed_code/14256059?hostedIn=slidesharereferer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slideshare.net%2Flewisglarsen#

- proposes that high temp superconductivity may develop in surface
plasmons when very high (10^11 V/m) E-field gradients develop at the
interface between collectively oscillating electrons and collectively
oscillating protons.

Perhaps this is testable using laser pulses, as described in -

Surface plasmon enhanced electron acceleration with few-cycle laser
pulses
http://www.szfki.hu/~dombi/DombiLPB27_291.pdf

- since they can create field gradients of at least 3.7 X 10^11 V/m
(p.293)

-- Lou Pagnucco

[Vo]:Heresy warning: variable isotope decay. Also noted, the ether is(?) involved...

[David L Babcock]

An excerpt from Giza Dearth Star, link below:

   [seen]..in two separate experiments in two different labs.

   It isn't just solar flares that seem to induce changes in
   radioactive decay rate. Changes in solar rotation and activity,/and
   the Earth's position on its orbital path around the Sun also appear
   to have an effect/, and it's the latter variable which seems to have
   been decisive in the research. Between July 2005 and June 2011,
   continued monitoring has apparently shown consistent annual
   variation in the decay rate of chlorine 36, peaking in January and
   February, and ebbing in July and August.(Emphasis added)

   Read more:NEW DETECTION METHOD FOR SOLAR FLARES: VARIATIONS IN
   RADIATION EMISSION
   
http://gizadeathstar.com/2012/08/new-detection-method-for-solar-flares-variations-in-radiation-emission/#ixzz25FHEeuxf
   - Giza Death Star Community


This really rang my chimes, as I had read -a month or two ago?-  that 
the existence of the ether has some good evidence for it, and that 
measurements showed that the solar system is moving through this ether 
at IIRC 4,000 km/hr, towards (some point).
If these two hideous heresies should turn out to agree the whole edifice 
of modern physics may crumble.



I wish I could provide a link to the ether article, it was a peach, 
giving (?) ten anomalous stick-in-your-eye findings that physics won't 
look at.


Ol' Bab, who was an engineer

Re: [Vo]:Re: ProdEngAssemble.avi - 1/2 volt grounded

[David L Babcock]

On 8/14/2012 1:51 PM, David Roberson wrote:

He suggested that there was .5 volts across the coil when grounded.  I 
assume that he broke the ground and then connected some form of meter 
across the turns.  I suspect that this reading was not accurate and 
most likely external noise or possibly RF interference to his meter.  
Without making the measurements myself, I can only be skeptical as to 
the actual effects.

Dave


To me it looks simpler: only that he grounded one coil terminal so that 
he could conveniently measure the voltage at the other.  This /does 
/imply that the coil circuit is normally floating, which is possible 
if not likely.
For an example of convenient, he may not have trusted the accuracy or 
bandwidth of the usual handheld meter, or if a scope he may not have the 
money for a scope that uses a balanced differential dual probe, and so 
needed a single-ended measurement,- and thus the grounding.


Before differential scope inputs were affordable, and a certain waveform 
just had to be seen, we on occasion had to float our scope at whatever 
ungodly voltage and waveform was there, to accurately see what was 
across a component.  Tore the safety ground out of the scope power cord, 
and then, /we were very careful! / lol.


Yours,
Ol' Bab, who was an engineer.

Re: [Vo]:Blather in the mass media makes scientists think we are crazy -I will not..

[David L Babcock]

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Ol' Bab


On 8/11/2012 2:11 AM, Jojo Jaro wrote:
But I am tired of this.  You may have the last word.  I will not 
be posting this forum anymore.  You may celebrate.  You win.  Go ahead 
and destroy this fine forum with your off-topic posts just to gab 
with friends.

Jojo

Re: [Vo]:The Next Commercial Device. ALL by same Nuclear process ??

[David L Babcock]

On 8/11/2012 10:41 AM, Chemical Engineer wrote:

Let me add to that last statement, Generating Energy  Matter

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 10:29 AM, Chemical Engineer 
cheme...@gmail.com mailto:cheme...@gmail.com wrote:


I now firmly believe Papp/Rohner, Rossi device, DGT, Brillouin,
Celini and others are all generating energy by the exact same
Nuclear process and my prediction of what will come next when the
world realizes what this is is that ALL HEAVEN AND HELL WILL BREAK
LOOSE.

The Papp/Rohner device has the process already somewhat
optimized/simplified (1500 HP self sustained for months from a
6-cylinder, 360CC device, which is PEANUTS for what this device
will actually do) and Rossi's latest device appears to be using a
very similar method to generate continuous heat to replace nuclear
fuel rods, process heating equipment, etc.  Throw your nanopowder
away.

I really want somebody to slap me to wake me up.  My wife is
wondering why I cannot sleep at night lately.



I was quite able to sleep at nights until I learned that the LENR bunch 
was finding helium at appropriate levels.


Papp/Rohner seems to be carefully avoiding making any such 
investigations.  No ashes, therefore NOT nuclear.  And so at this point, 
not convincing (although very exciting).


One miracle is enough.  LENR can do anything that [maybe!] Papp can, 
just a tad more complex and expensive -but still leaving hydrocarbons 
behind in the dust.  Plenty of reason for more sleepless nights.


Ol' Bab, who was an engineer...

Re: [Vo]:LENR Heat Vs. Coal Heat - 6000:1

[David L Babcock]

Dave:
Went back to Wikipedia, got you this URL: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_energy_consumption
I think the data is all there, just needs the calculation of the ratio. 
I remember calculating the number of square yards of the earth that 
faced the Sun, and I remember being 2x off the first time around, and 
then finding that I didn't need to know that. This was on July 18th. I 
plead fatigue. The article had a LOT of references, can't be off much. 
(a rule, right? reliability of data proportional to number of references.)


But the WAG...  I had a vague idea that the time required for the earth 
to stabilize at a new T after a step change in heat input... hmm.  And 
the slope of change is, er,  hmm.  Well.  Some sort of intuitive leap 
occurred, and I grasped at 1%.  Maybe because it's a nice simple number.


Have not looked further. Kinda' hoping some one else would. It's got to 
be out there.


Regarding the pound of coal trapping more heat than it held originally, 
think of a pound of gold, rolled to foil, spread to reflect sunlight. 
Big amount of heat intercepted, yet the gold can't burn at all.  Sort of 
an apples and oranges thing.


Ol' Bab, who used to be an engineer. No, not that kind, electronic.




On 8/5/2012 5:19 PM, David Roberson wrote:
You have made an interesting WAG Bab.  I intend to give it a lot of 
consideration as I try to understand your derivation better.  I had 
hoped that the Sun was far ahead of mankind in this regard, but maybe 
that was wishful thinking.  Perhaps I can still find one of those 
tickets to Mars before they all get sold out!
Could you recheck your source defining the 6000 to 1 ratio to see if 
that is the accepted value?  I hope that you made an error of a few 
decimal places.
I suspect that the 60 to 1 ratio is a little on the high side when I 
look at the problem from another perspective.  Our test block of coal 
at 1 kilogram turns into mainly carbon dioxide that enters the 
atmosphere.  Since this gas only remains there for between 30 and 90 
years (half life) then it seems a little bit of a stretch to consider 
that it allows for heat to be trapped equalling the original amount of 
carbon in a single year.  Off the cuff I would guess 10% or so.  If my 
WAG is better than your WAG, the X factor would be about 6. Who knows, 
but I think we can obtain a modestly close number by further 
investigation.

Anyone else out there have a guess or fact that might help us?
Dave
-Original Message-
From: David L Babcock ol...@rochester.rr.com
To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com
Sent: Sun, Aug 5, 2012 3:14 pm
Subject: Re: [Vo]:LENR Heat Vs. Coal Heat

On 8/5/2012 11:21 AM, David Roberson wrote:
It seems apparent that the final global consideration is that extra 
heat is released into the atmosphere, land, and water of the earth as 
a result of us burning fossil fuels.


In other terms, one kilogram of coal results in the net earth heating 
of X times the initial heat outlay.


I found part of the picture in Wikipedia: The ratio of all the energy 
incident from the Sun, to all the energy mankind used globally (in 
2009?) was roughly 6,000 to 1.  (I assume this was only the energy 
that involved payment, ie, almost all fossil sourced energy).


Unknown to me is the added heat energy from new CO2 and methane.  If 
our present rate of warming is caused by (/really /wild guess) 1% more 
retention of solar energy than before, then that 1% is 60 times more 
than our total energy consumption, for x = 60.  If you diddle in the 
all the renewable and nuclear parts it won't be much different.


Hey, a wild guess is better than none.

So if, if, if, all co2 sources get replaced by LENR, no problem. But 
bloody unlikely.  Also, there WILL BE a huge increase in total energy 
usage, exponential, year after year after year.  Might take us all of 
200 years to get back in trouble.


Ol' Bab.


I would greatly appreciate it if some of our esteemed members join 
into this discussion.  Do you consider my thought experiment 
completely off base or is there a way to get a handle upon the true X 
factor I am suggesting?

Dave

Re: [Vo]:LENR Heat Vs. Coal Heat

[David L Babcock]

On 8/5/2012 11:21 AM, David Roberson wrote:
It seems apparent that the final global consideration is that extra heat 
is released into the atmosphere, land, and water of the earth as a 
result of us burning fossil fuels.


In other terms, one kilogram of coal results in the net earth heating of 
X times the initial heat outlay.


I found part of the picture in Wikipedia: The ratio of all the energy 
incident from the Sun, to all the energy mankind used globally (in 
2009?) was roughly 6,000 to 1.  (I assume this was only the energy that 
involved payment, ie, almost all fossil sourced energy).


Unknown to me is the added heat energy from new CO2 and methane.  If 
our present rate of warming is caused by (/really /wild guess) 1% more 
retention of solar energy than before, then that 1% is 60 times more 
than our total energy consumption, for x = 60.  If you diddle in the all 
the renewable and nuclear parts it won't be much different.


Hey, a wild guess is better than none.

So if, if, if, all co2 sources get replaced by LENR, no problem. But 
bloody unlikely.  Also, there WILL BE a huge increase in total energy 
usage, exponential, year after year after year. Might take us all of 200 
years to get back in trouble.


Ol' Bab.


I would greatly appreciate it if some of our esteemed members join into 
this discussion.  Do you consider my thought experiment completely off 
base or is there a way to get a handle upon the true X factor I am 
suggesting?

Dave

Re: [Vo]:Koch founded climate skeptic changes sides

[David L Babcock]

On 7/30/2012 3:27 PM, Chemical Engineer wrote:
It seems to me that if LENR is real and scalable and we have approx 50 
years to turn things around, some new industries that should arise, 
based upon sound scientific data are:


1) Cooling of oceans to stable, pre-industrial temperatures using 
evaporative cooling, etc requiring lots of LENR pumping HP, which is 
now virtually free

2) 
3)  ...

And big ass LENR pumps for all the cities to keep the water out until 
1-3 are effective.




I at first missed the word cities
So had a brief vision of thousands of (will be) former beach dwellers 
now looking at the ocean with closed circuit TV, from the bottoms of 
their 100 foot tall cast cement silos, while huge pumps howl to keep 
their patches of sand dry.


Keeping Manhattan dry -not to mention Brooklyn and Staten Island!- will 
surely be easier, but just as surely totally uneconomical.  But I think 
you are showing a certain dry humor...


About your point 1):  Cooling that much water a few degrees would 
require dumping that heat, and the waste heat from the cooling process 
(think thermodynamics laws), somewhere. If not back in the water, then 
into the atmosphere.  Wild guess: 30 degree air temp rise, world-wide?


But I can see a barrage of pumps near important coral reefs, pulling 
cold water up from the depths for a local effect.  Wait, the water's 
rising, they'd have to put the reefs on jacks.  Never mind, we are so 
screwed.


Ol' Bab, who was an engineer.

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

[David L Babcock]

On 7/19/2012 9:48 PM, Terry Blanton wrote:

On Thu, Jul 19, 2012 at 9:42 PM, David L Babcock ol...@rochester.rr.com wrote:


Lacking  -at this moment-  your book, I plunge ahead anyway...

It's a quick, free download:

http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusiona.pdf

T



Thank you !!
I was kind'a counting on a response like this.

Ol' Bab

Re: [Vo]:Migrant Workers in China Face Competition from Robots

[David L Babcock]

On 7/18/2012 11:08 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:

...
I suggest you read my book, chapters 14 and 15 especially. I show why 
cold fusion will probably reduce electric power costs by two-thirds 
quickly, and why eventually it will reduce all energy costs -- 
including equipment costs -- by orders of magnitude.


To summarize: when one component in a system falls in price, the other 
components also soon become cheaper. Cheap microcomputers spurred the 
development of cheap hard disks and printers.


I may be wrong about that, but I consulted with experts and thought 
about it carefully. I did not reach that conclusion in week or two. 
More like several years after reading lots of books.


- Jed



Jed:

Lacking  -at this moment-  your book, I plunge ahead anyway...

It seems to me that (unless LENR can be made capable of directly 
generating electricity) that electricity generation CAPITAL costs cannot 
really decrease much:  Per watt, you need the same generator, you need 
an engine of matching HP (IC or steam, not much different), and now you 
need a boiler, water injector, usually a condenser.


I see a twist in your favor: because the heat is SO cheap, a really 
wretched, cheap, cheap, kluge of a turbine could be fine.  Who needs 
efficiency!  Exotic metallurgy, ultra-precision machining, all by the 
board.  Likewise the condenser   -where plenty of water is handy.


Another thing I get, material costs will surely drop, since some large 
fraction is due to fuel for mining, transportation, smelting, refining, 
forming, etc, etc, etc.




SO, okay, maybe 2/3 drop in $$ per watt.  Never by an order of magnitude.
Well, IF direct electricity generation is possible, maybe...

Ol' Bab

Re: [Vo]:Extreme pipes, extreme pumps: Nord Stream

[David L Babcock]

Huh ?

Oh!  Couldn't be mm.  Meters?

Ol' Bab



On 7/17/2012 3:29 PM, David Jonsson wrote:
Nord Stream is 1200 km long, 1200 mm wide and transfers 55 billion m^3 
of gas per year. At 150 bar that's 10 m/s. And pumping that amount 
consumes the power 170 MW. The power content of the gas flow compares 
to 70 GW.


Where is all heat going in the compression stage of the gas? The gas 
(with Cp/Cv=1.3) becomes 660 C hot.


How big is the drag in a pipe like that?

Here it says 366 MW pumping power and 220 bar.
http://urresult.ru/?cat=123
Even worse, but I didn't take the warming of the gas in the pumps into 
consideration.


David

David Jonsson, Sweden, phone callto:+46703000370

Re: [Vo]:Harping on the Right Things! spark glow and conduct

[David L Babcock]

This is really unhelpful but I offer it anyway:  In my youth I came 
across spark plugs being used as cheap, rugged, hermetic, high voltage 
power leads into a vacuum chamber - or was it a pressure vessel -   
whatever...  The spark end was bent straight, welded to a wire.


Ol' Bab


On 7/15/2012 12:48 PM, Bob Higgins wrote:
There was no attempt at misdirection on my part - I was simply 
recounting what I was told at WM.  However, I don't believe that the 
person who told me had direct first-hand knowledge, and while he may 
have been mistaken, I don't think he was intentionally trying to 
mislead me.


At first, I didn't think the statement made much sense - what would 
glow plugs be used for in a situation where there is no combustion? 
 But, and I have no idea what devices are available ...


Is it possible that a glow plug may exist that could be used as a 
filament for electron discharge as in an electron tube?  Such a glow 
plug might still need the ceramic HV insulation.  Electron discharge 
in the chamber would be more active in the cell than just sparking a 
spark plug.


I thought I would post it for comment.

Bob

On Sun, Jul 15, 2012 at 11:22 AM, Jojo Jaro jth...@hotmail.com 
mailto:jth...@hotmail.com wrote:


Let's put this misdirection attempt to rest once and for all.
A glow plug requires low voltage to heat. (Usually between a few
volts to 6 volts.)   A glow plug does not require a tall ceramic
insulatior. A glow plug has a long elongated cylinderical tube
that contains the heating element inside.  The pictures Terry
posted from Amazon are glow plugs.
A spark plug requires a tall insulator to prevent volatage leakage
since it is fired using high voltages.  A spark plug will have a
long threaded part (f it is long reach), and a small gap at the end.
The picture in DGT document is a spark plug. Any mechanic Joe blow
will tell you that. Notice the tall ceramic insulator.
I wonder what motivation people have in spreading this
misdirection?  Unbelievable how people can lie to your face
nowadays and keep it cool.  Unbelievable.
BTW, a spark plug fired at 300 hz (18,000 RPM) will draw less than
100 watts.  COP is not an issue if sparks are used.
Jojo

- Original Message -
*From:* Alain Sepeda mailto:alain.sep...@gmail.com
*To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com mailto:vortex-l@eskimo.com
*Sent:* Sunday, July 15, 2012 10:59 PM
*Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Harping on the Right Things!

no spark gap on the photo, seems right.

whether a glow or spark plug is a very important detail

if a spark plug is needed, there is a needed quantity of
energy that have to be electric, and this limit the COP.
if only heat is used, that mean that the reactor itself, or
another reactor, can provide the heat, so the COP can have no
limit else the insulation and controllability

2012/7/15 Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com
mailto:hohlr...@gmail.com

Doesn't look like glow plugs:

http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8rh=n%3A15729261page=1





--
Regards,
Bob Higgins

Re: [Vo]: ECAT 600 C Operations

[David L Babcock]

Your puzzling is puzzling, Harry.
Rossi is claiming (I think it was) 10 KWatts of power from a unit. There 
are few practical ways to measure that besides (in essence) boiling 
water. A gale of air?


I will give you, that Rossi may not have /simultaneously/ attained 600 
degC and 10 KWatts. This is what an efficient electric power generator 
needs, so a shortcoming here could indeed show puffery.


In either case, a useful device, at least for pool heating!  How many 
gallons can you keep at 10 degC above ambient, with 10 KWatts ?


Ol' Bab





On 7/6/2012 3:25 PM, Harry Veeder wrote:

I just want to remind people that the claimed operating temperature of
600C is not new. When Rossi presented the ecat in Jan 2011, he said
the core would reach temperatures around 600C, but the heated water
only just boiled. Now he claims the core is  stable at 600C but he is
not doing anything with the generated heat. Is this progress or
puffery?

Harry

On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 1:56 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote:

Recently it has been reported that the latest version of the Rossi ECAT can
operate at 600 degrees centigrade or more without going unstable.  This is a
remarkable improvement if accurate and it is suggested that the proof will
be delivered soon.
The earlier versions of the device tended to become unstable when the
temperature increased much beyond the operational level and now that appears
to be under control.  To operate in such a manner suggests that the
mechanism which establishes the LENR activity is mostly independent of
temperature of the device.  Actually it might imply that now there is a form
of negative feedback operating which tends to throttle back the energy
generation process once a threshold temperature is reached.
I have long hoped that the driver source could become independent of the
output states in LENR devices since that would devoice the devices from the
strong temperature effects that have made stability a big problem to contend
with.   Imagine how wonderful it will be if we are able to control the
reaction by just changing the drive with minor temperature degradations.
There has been a lot of recent activity related to carbon nanotubes and
variation in the waveforms driving the LENR devices.  Perhaps Rossi has
found a good combination of hydrogen storage with release control and an
electrical signal that work together as a system.  Time will reveal if all
or any of this is true.
Maybe someone within the group has knowledge of the operation of the
Patterson cells which seemed to use an electric current as the control
handle.  Was that device sensitive to temperature in the manner associated
with positive feedback or more benign as would be expected if negative
feedback were dominate?
I for one would welcome the improvements in the Rossi device that have been
outlined, but have learned from experience that it is easy to say something
remarkable but then not follow up with the goods.  Perhaps this time we will
see the results that we so much anticipate.
Dave

Re: [Vo]:US government patents LENR

[David L Babcock]

It looks to me me like our Navy guy is doing The Right Thing: getting a 
ground floor patent that covers /everything/ that hasn't been done yet 
in LENR. Necessarily he ties it to a theory; the one he's got, or that 
he thinks has the best chance. I wouldn't be surprised if he repeats the 
whole thing, but with a different theory, to cover more eventualities.


Ol' Bab, who was an engineer...


On 6/24/2012 5:28 PM, mix...@bigpond.com wrote:

In reply to  David Roberson's message of Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:57:24 -0400 (EDT):
Hi,

In private email with someone not from this list, someone suggested to me that
the WL theory was the beast candidate so far for an explanation of CF.
I would suggest rather that it is the theory most easily accepted by the
mainstream because it requires that they make the least adjustment to their
current way of thinking. God forbid that they should have been totally wrong
their entire lives. The dent to their egos would be just too much to bear. ;)


[snip]

This is an interesting patent that I hope is important to LENR power production 
[snip] Dave