Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Hoi, At this time, we made big progress by having a policy in place whereby ISO-639-3 defined languages can gain eligibility from the WMF language committee. Eligibility to allow the addition of labels in Wikidata without any requirement for localisation as is per the policy for any other project. At the same time we have a situation where it is technically possible to have languages enabled for Wikidata only. The plan is to ask to enable all eligible languages that have an Incubator presence for Wikidata first. What needs doing is for someone to make a list of the languages involved. Obviously, we want to see what impact it has. Combined with the Reasonator, it has a great potential as it does provide fall back languages that can be configured. When new languages are requested, it will be ISO-639-3 only as per the policy. Good arguments will need to be provided because we will not engage in Wikidata as a post stamp collection of any and all languages/ Consequently, the involvement of native speakers will be an important plus. If this feels like me throwing cold water on the enthusiasm for many more languages then do understand that Wikidata does not support Wiktionary yet. When lexical values become possible it is soon enough to revisit things again. Thanks, GerardM On 6 May 2014 20:55, P. Blissenbach pu...@web.de wrote: Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi,Purodha what you say about Ethnologue is very biases, wrong and often hardly relevant. I am sorry if my contribution was biased. My main goal was to warn that there are more than 7000-odd languages, extending ISO 639-3 is time consuming, and that we have the BCP47 defining language variants in addition to ISO 639. When you know your history, Ethnologue was asked if they would bring in their expertise and system in the ISO processes because the existing ISO-639-2 was extremely inadequate. When it was included, it became part of an established process whereby experts from national standard bodies decide on the further development. Effectively the role of Ethnologue is one of administrator, not initiator. Thrue. Saying that all the issues about languages is because to Ethnlogue is completely false. I was not meaning to say that. The notion if there are many more languages is very much open to debate. There is no good answer. Sure, it depends. Also, I do not want to put blame on anyone. Naturally, whatever you collect, you start somewhere, it will take time, and at some point you have an incomplete, but growing list. That is how I see Ethnologue. I keep mailing them data knowing that they are going to need their time to verify and process it. Taking into account what we likely have to use as a definition for language is, whether or not labels, lexemes, or similar, are spelled pronunced, signalled, or syntactically/grammatically put together differently enough to warrant that we call them distinct from another language. I am well aware that this is a foggy thing and there are many instances that can cause controversies. When you are interested in looking beyond the ISO-639-3 consider the ISO-639-6. It aims to include any and all language variants and it is not that interested in using the political term what language has become. I was considering to mention it in my post. I did not, mainly for bevity. Yet also, I doubt, it's in a useful state already. Last fall or late summer, it had almost twice as many entries as ISO 639-3, language coverage in my main field was as incomplete as ISO 639, it was not publicized in a well usable way (Website down since long. Before that, queryable in a complicated and inefficient manner for individual entries and small sets only. No listings available online. No details beyond language names. Good news: the web site is partly online again as of today.) Yes, I do consider ISO 639-6. I am happy about it's clearer and simpler approach to the subject matter, and I am looking forward to using it, as its coverage grows. Purodha ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com writes: [] The plan is to ask to enable all eligible languages that have an Incubator presence for Wikidata first. What needs doing is for someone to make a list of the languages involved. Here you go - I extracted all language codes and names from the list of incubator wikis at: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Incubator:Wikis in alphabetical order: aa Afar aaf Eranadan ab Abkhaz abl Lampung Nyo abq Abaza abv Bahrani Arabic acf Saint Lucian Creole ach Acholi ada Adangme adh Dhopadhola ady Adyghe aeb Tunisian Arabic af Afrikaans agx Aghul ain Ainu ajp South Levantine Arabic ak Akan akz Alabama aln Gheg Albanian alr Alyutor alt Southern Altai ami Amis amr Amarakaeri an Aragonese ang Old English anp Angika apc North Levantine Arabic ar Arabic arc Syriac arn Mapudungun aro Araona arq Algerian Arabic ary Maroccan Arabic arz Egyptian Arabic as Assamese ast Asturian atv Northern Altai av Avar awa Awadhi ayl Libyan Arabic ayn Sanaani Arabic az Azerbaijani azb South Azerbaijani ba Bashkir bal Balochi ban Balinese bas Ɓasaá bbc Batak Toba bbj Ghomala bcc Southern Baluchi bcl Bikol be Belarusian bew Betawi bfq Badaga bft Balti bg Bulgarian bgp Eastern Balochi bhb Bhili bh Bhojpuri bhw Biak bin Edo bm Bambara bn Bengali bo Tibetan bqi Bakhtiari brh Brahui brx Bodo bsk Burushaski bss Akoose btd Batak Dairi btm Batak Mandailing bto Rinconada bts Batak Simalungun btx Batak Karo btz Alas bug Buginese bum Bulu bxr Buryat ca Catalan cak Kaqchikel ccp Chakma ch Chamorro chi Chin chn Chinook Jargon cho Choctaw cim Cimbrian cjs Shor ckb Kurdish (Sorani) ckb Sorani Kurdish ckt Chukchi ckv Kavalan clw Chulym cmn Mandarin Chinese cnh Hakha Chin co Corsican co Corsu cop Coptic cps Capiznon cpx Pu-Xian Min cs Czech cts Pandan Bikol cv Chuvash cy Welsh da Danish dar Dargwa ddg Fataluku dgo Dogri diq Zazaki dlg Dolgan dlm Dalmatian dng Dungan dtp Dusun dum Middle Dutch dun Deyah dyu Dyula dz Dzongkha ee Ewe egl Emilian enf Enets enm Middle English eo Esperanto ese Eqpl Ese ese Ese Ejja ess Central Siberian Yupik esu Central Alaskan Yup'ik et Estonian eu Basque eve Even evn Evenki ewo Ewondo fa Persian fax Fala fi Finnish fil Filipino fit Meänkieli fkv Kven fo Faroese frc Cajun French fro Old French gaa Ga ga Irish gan Gan gay Gayo gbm Garhwali gcf Guadeloupean Creole gil Gilbertese gld Nanai gl Galician glk Gilaki goh Old High German gom Konkani gor Gorontalo grc Ancient Greek guc Wayuu gur Frafra gvr Gurung hac Hawrami hak Hakka haw Hawaiian haz Hazaragi hif Fiji Hindi hi Hindi hil Hiligaynon hnd Hindko hne Chhattisgarhi ho Hiri Motu hr Croatian hsn Xiang ht Haitian Creole hug Huachipaeri hu Hungarian hus Wastek hy Armenian hz Herero iar Purari iba Iban ibb Ibibio id Indonesian ig Igbo ii Sichuan Yi ili Ili Turki inh Ingush is Icelandic iso Isoko ist Istriot itl Itelmen izh Ingrian ja Japanese jam Jamaican jax Jambi Malay jct Krymchak jdt Judeo-Tat jut Jutlandic jv Javanese kab Kabyle kac Jingpho ka Georgian kbd Circassian kbp Kabiye kca Khanty kck Kalanga kdr Karaim kea Cape Verdean Creole ket Ket kev Kanikkaran kfr Kutchi kfy Kumaoni kge Komering kgp Kaingang kha Khasi khw Khowar kiu Kirmanjki kjh Khakas kj Kuanyama kk Kazakh klb Kiliwa kl Greenlandic kls Kalash kmr Kurmanji kmz Khorasani Turkic kn Kannada ko Korean kpy Koryak kri Krio krj Kinaray-a kr Kanuri krl Karelian ksf Bafia ksh Colognian ksw S'gaw Karen ku Kurdish kum Kumyk kvr Kerinci kxk Zayein Karen lad Judaeo-Spanish (Ladino) lad Ladino lag Rangi la Latin lb Luxembourgish lbx Lawangan lez Lezgian lhu Lahu lif Limbu lij Ligurian li Limburgish liv Livonian ljp Lampung Api lkt Lakota lld Ladin loz Lozi lrc Luri ltg Latgalian lt Lithuanian luo Luo lus Mizo lv Latvian lzz Laz mad Madurese mai Maithili mak Makassarese mam Mam max North Moluccan Malay maz Mazahua mdr Mandar meu Motu mfa Yawi mfb Bangka mfe
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Hoi, The list I am looking for include only the ones that are eligible. Many in this list are already supported as well (Indonesian for instance) and there are also languages in there that are not eligible. Thanks, GerardM On 7 May 2014 11:16, P. Blissenbach pu...@web.de wrote: Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com writes: [] The plan is to ask to enable all eligible languages that have an Incubator presence for Wikidata first. What needs doing is for someone to make a list of the languages involved. Here you go - I extracted all language codes and names from the list of incubator wikis at: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Incubator:Wikis in alphabetical order: aa Afar aaf Eranadan ab Abkhaz abl Lampung Nyo abq Abaza abv Bahrani Arabic acf Saint Lucian Creole ach Acholi ada Adangme adh Dhopadhola ady Adyghe aeb Tunisian Arabic af Afrikaans agx Aghul ain Ainu ajp South Levantine Arabic ak Akan akz Alabama aln Gheg Albanian alr Alyutor alt Southern Altai ami Amis amr Amarakaeri an Aragonese ang Old English anp Angika apc North Levantine Arabic ar Arabic arc Syriac arn Mapudungun aro Araona arq Algerian Arabic ary Maroccan Arabic arz Egyptian Arabic as Assamese ast Asturian atv Northern Altai av Avar awa Awadhi ayl Libyan Arabic ayn Sanaani Arabic az Azerbaijani azb South Azerbaijani ba Bashkir bal Balochi ban Balinese bas Ɓasaá bbc Batak Toba bbj Ghomala bcc Southern Baluchi bcl Bikol be Belarusian bew Betawi bfq Badaga bft Balti bg Bulgarian bgp Eastern Balochi bhb Bhili bh Bhojpuri bhw Biak bin Edo bm Bambara bn Bengali bo Tibetan bqi Bakhtiari brh Brahui brx Bodo bsk Burushaski bss Akoose btd Batak Dairi btm Batak Mandailing bto Rinconada bts Batak Simalungun btx Batak Karo btz Alas bug Buginese bum Bulu bxr Buryat ca Catalan cak Kaqchikel ccp Chakma ch Chamorro chi Chin chn Chinook Jargon cho Choctaw cim Cimbrian cjs Shor ckb Kurdish (Sorani) ckb Sorani Kurdish ckt Chukchi ckv Kavalan clw Chulym cmn Mandarin Chinese cnh Hakha Chin co Corsican co Corsu cop Coptic cps Capiznon cpx Pu-Xian Min cs Czech cts Pandan Bikol cv Chuvash cy Welsh da Danish dar Dargwa ddg Fataluku dgo Dogri diq Zazaki dlg Dolgan dlm Dalmatian dng Dungan dtp Dusun dum Middle Dutch dun Deyah dyu Dyula dz Dzongkha ee Ewe egl Emilian enf Enets enm Middle English eo Esperanto ese Eqpl Ese ese Ese Ejja ess Central Siberian Yupik esu Central Alaskan Yup'ik et Estonian eu Basque eve Even evn Evenki ewo Ewondo fa Persian fax Fala fi Finnish fil Filipino fit Meänkieli fkv Kven fo Faroese frc Cajun French fro Old French gaa Ga ga Irish gan Gan gay Gayo gbm Garhwali gcf Guadeloupean Creole gil Gilbertese gld Nanai gl Galician glk Gilaki goh Old High German gom Konkani gor Gorontalo grc Ancient Greek guc Wayuu gur Frafra gvr Gurung hac Hawrami hak Hakka haw Hawaiian haz Hazaragi hif Fiji Hindi hi Hindi hil Hiligaynon hnd Hindko hne Chhattisgarhi ho Hiri Motu hr Croatian hsn Xiang ht Haitian Creole hug Huachipaeri hu Hungarian hus Wastek hy Armenian hz Herero iar Purari iba Iban ibb Ibibio id Indonesian ig Igbo ii Sichuan Yi ili Ili Turki inh Ingush is Icelandic iso Isoko ist Istriot itl Itelmen izh Ingrian ja Japanese jam Jamaican jax Jambi Malay jct Krymchak jdt Judeo-Tat jut Jutlandic jv Javanese kab Kabyle kac Jingpho ka Georgian kbd Circassian kbp Kabiye kca Khanty kck Kalanga kdr Karaim kea Cape Verdean Creole ket Ket kev Kanikkaran kfr Kutchi kfy Kumaoni kge Komering kgp Kaingang kha Khasi khw Khowar kiu Kirmanjki kjh Khakas kj Kuanyama kk Kazakh klb Kiliwa kl Greenlandic kls Kalash kmr Kurmanji kmz Khorasani Turkic kn Kannada ko Korean kpy Koryak kri Krio krj Kinaray-a kr Kanuri krl Karelian ksf Bafia ksh Colognian ksw S'gaw Karen ku Kurdish kum Kumyk kvr Kerinci kxk Zayein Karen lad
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
How is eligible defined in this context? Is there a general list of eligible languages somewhere? Or a list of ones not eligible? Purodha Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com writes: Hoi, The list I am looking for include only the ones that are eligible. Many in this list are already supported as well (Indonesian for instance) and there are also languages in there that are not eligible. Thanks, GerardM On 7 May 2014 11:16, P. Blissenbach pu...@web.de wrote:Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com[gerard.meijs...@gmail.com] writes: [] The plan is to ask to enable all eligible languages that have an Incubator presence for Wikidata first. What needs doing is for someone to make a list of the languages involved. Here you go - I extracted all language codes and names from the list of incubator wikis at: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Incubator:Wikis[https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Incubator:Wikis] in alphabetical order: aa Afar aaf Eranadan ab Abkhaz abl Lampung Nyo abq Abaza abv Bahrani Arabic acf Saint Lucian Creole ach Acholi ada Adangme adh Dhopadhola ady Adyghe aeb Tunisian Arabic af Afrikaans agx Aghul ain Ainu ajp South Levantine Arabic ak Akan akz Alabama aln Gheg Albanian alr Alyutor alt Southern Altai ami Amis amr Amarakaeri an Aragonese ang Old English anp Angika apc North Levantine Arabic ar Arabic arc Syriac arn Mapudungun aro Araona arq Algerian Arabic ary Maroccan Arabic arz Egyptian Arabic as Assamese ast Asturian atv Northern Altai av Avar awa Awadhi ayl Libyan Arabic ayn Sanaani Arabic az Azerbaijani azb South Azerbaijani ba Bashkir bal Balochi ban Balinese bas Ɓasaá bbc Batak Toba bbj Ghomala bcc Southern Baluchi bcl Bikol be Belarusian bew Betawi bfq Badaga bft Balti bg Bulgarian bgp Eastern Balochi bhb Bhili bh Bhojpuri bhw Biak bin Edo bm Bambara bn Bengali bo Tibetan bqi Bakhtiari brh Brahui brx Bodo bsk Burushaski bss Akoose btd Batak Dairi btm Batak Mandailing bto Rinconada bts Batak Simalungun btx Batak Karo btz Alas bug Buginese bum Bulu bxr Buryat ca Catalan cak Kaqchikel ccp Chakma ch Chamorro chi Chin chn Chinook Jargon cho Choctaw cim Cimbrian cjs Shor ckb Kurdish (Sorani) ckb Sorani Kurdish ckt Chukchi ckv Kavalan clw Chulym cmn Mandarin Chinese cnh Hakha Chin co Corsican co Corsu cop Coptic cps Capiznon cpx Pu-Xian Min cs Czech cts Pandan Bikol cv Chuvash cy Welsh da Danish dar Dargwa ddg Fataluku dgo Dogri diq Zazaki dlg Dolgan dlm Dalmatian dng Dungan dtp Dusun dum Middle Dutch dun Deyah dyu Dyula dz Dzongkha ee Ewe egl Emilian enf Enets enm Middle English eo Esperanto ese Eqpl Ese ese Ese Ejja ess Central Siberian Yupik esu Central Alaskan Yup'ik et Estonian eu Basque eve Even evn Evenki ewo Ewondo fa Persian fax Fala fi Finnish fil Filipino fit Meänkieli fkv Kven fo Faroese frc Cajun French fro Old French gaa Ga ga Irish gan Gan gay Gayo gbm Garhwali gcf Guadeloupean Creole gil Gilbertese gld Nanai gl Galician glk Gilaki goh Old High German gom Konkani gor Gorontalo grc Ancient Greek guc Wayuu gur Frafra gvr Gurung hac Hawrami hak Hakka haw Hawaiian haz Hazaragi hif Fiji Hindi hi Hindi hil Hiligaynon hnd Hindko hne Chhattisgarhi ho Hiri Motu hr Croatian hsn Xiang ht Haitian Creole hug Huachipaeri hu Hungarian hus Wastek hy Armenian hz Herero iar Purari iba Iban ibb Ibibio id Indonesian ig Igbo ii Sichuan Yi ili Ili Turki inh Ingush is Icelandic iso Isoko ist Istriot itl Itelmen izh Ingrian ja Japanese jam Jamaican jax Jambi Malay jct Krymchak jdt Judeo-Tat jut Jutlandic jv Javanese kab Kabyle kac Jingpho ka Georgian kbd Circassian kbp Kabiye kca Khanty kck Kalanga kdr Karaim kea Cape Verdean Creole ket Ket kev Kanikkaran kfr Kutchi kfy Kumaoni kge Komering kgp Kaingang kha Khasi khw Khowar kiu Kirmanjki kjh Khakas kj Kuanyama kk Kazakh klb Kiliwa kl Greenlandic kls Kalash kmr Kurmanji kmz Khorasani Turkic kn Kannada ko Korean kpy Koryak kri Krio krj Kinaray-a kr Kanuri krl Karelian ksf Bafia ksh Colognian ksw S'gaw Karen ku Kurdish kum Kumyk kvr Kerinci kxk
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Hoi, A language is eligible in the WMF context when the language committee says so. You can find a list of languages that were requested on Meta. In principle a language will be pronounced as eligible when it has an ISO-639-3 code and when people ask for it. As you may know, in the past there were people who asked for any and all language because they could. That proved to be a mistake. The result is that people demanded no more new languages and as a compromise the language committee and policy came into being. Consequently, the first step after the ability to support languages in Wikidata is to enable the eligible new languages with an Incubator project. When this is done, the language committee will consider other languages. One at a time and with a request on Meta. Thanks, GerardM On 7 May 2014 11:48, P. Blissenbach pu...@web.de wrote: How is eligible defined in this context? Is there a general list of eligible languages somewhere? Or a list of ones not eligible? Purodha Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com writes: Hoi, The list I am looking for include only the ones that are eligible. Many in this list are already supported as well (Indonesian for instance) and there are also languages in there that are not eligible. Thanks, GerardM On 7 May 2014 11:16, P. Blissenbach pu...@web.de wrote:Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com[gerard.meijs...@gmail.com] writes: [] The plan is to ask to enable all eligible languages that have an Incubator presence for Wikidata first. What needs doing is for someone to make a list of the languages involved. Here you go - I extracted all language codes and names from the list of incubator wikis at: https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Incubator:Wikis[https://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Incubator:Wikis] in alphabetical order: aa Afar aaf Eranadan ab Abkhaz abl Lampung Nyo abq Abaza abv Bahrani Arabic acf Saint Lucian Creole ach Acholi ada Adangme adh Dhopadhola ady Adyghe aeb Tunisian Arabic af Afrikaans agx Aghul ain Ainu ajp South Levantine Arabic ak Akan akz Alabama aln Gheg Albanian alr Alyutor alt Southern Altai ami Amis amr Amarakaeri an Aragonese ang Old English anp Angika apc North Levantine Arabic ar Arabic arc Syriac arn Mapudungun aro Araona arq Algerian Arabic ary Maroccan Arabic arz Egyptian Arabic as Assamese ast Asturian atv Northern Altai av Avar awa Awadhi ayl Libyan Arabic ayn Sanaani Arabic az Azerbaijani azb South Azerbaijani ba Bashkir bal Balochi ban Balinese bas Ɓasaá bbc Batak Toba bbj Ghomala bcc Southern Baluchi bcl Bikol be Belarusian bew Betawi bfq Badaga bft Balti bg Bulgarian bgp Eastern Balochi bhb Bhili bh Bhojpuri bhw Biak bin Edo bm Bambara bn Bengali bo Tibetan bqi Bakhtiari brh Brahui brx Bodo bsk Burushaski bss Akoose btd Batak Dairi btm Batak Mandailing bto Rinconada bts Batak Simalungun btx Batak Karo btz Alas bug Buginese bum Bulu bxr Buryat ca Catalan cak Kaqchikel ccp Chakma ch Chamorro chi Chin chn Chinook Jargon cho Choctaw cim Cimbrian cjs Shor ckb Kurdish (Sorani) ckb Sorani Kurdish ckt Chukchi ckv Kavalan clw Chulym cmn Mandarin Chinese cnh Hakha Chin co Corsican co Corsu cop Coptic cps Capiznon cpx Pu-Xian Min cs Czech cts Pandan Bikol cv Chuvash cy Welsh da Danish dar Dargwa ddg Fataluku dgo Dogri diq Zazaki dlg Dolgan dlm Dalmatian dng Dungan dtp Dusun dum Middle Dutch dun Deyah dyu Dyula dz Dzongkha ee Ewe egl Emilian enf Enets enm Middle English eo Esperanto ese Eqpl Ese ese Ese Ejja ess Central Siberian Yupik esu Central Alaskan Yup'ik et Estonian eu Basque eve Even evn Evenki ewo Ewondo fa Persian fax Fala fi Finnish fil Filipino fit Meänkieli fkv Kven fo Faroese frc Cajun French fro Old French gaa Ga ga Irish gan Gan gay Gayo gbm Garhwali gcf Guadeloupean Creole gil Gilbertese gld Nanai gl Galician glk Gilaki goh Old High German gom Konkani gor Gorontalo grc Ancient Greek guc Wayuu gur Frafra gvr Gurung hac Hawrami hak Hakka haw Hawaiian haz Hazaragi hif Fiji Hindi hi Hindi hil Hiligaynon hnd Hindko hne Chhattisgarhi ho Hiri Motu hr Croatian hsn Xiang ht Haitian Creole hug Huachipaeri
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Scott MacLeod worlduniversityandsch...@gmail.com writes: Hi Joe, Magnus, Andrew, GerardM, Jane, Daniel and Wikidatans, Since Language fallback is not a luxury like it is for British English, it is essential for all the smaller languages. It is what prevents it from being editable / usable (per GerardM), and in terms of Reasonator, statements, and careful design (DanielK), what are current Wikidata processes to plan eventually for all 7,106 living languages (plus even dead and invented languages) in the world per Ethnologue: Languages of the World, Seventeenth edition (http://www.ethnologue.com/statistics/size), as people add them, and use, for example, the ISO coding system (or similar) for this, to anticipate not yet added languages, and especially for 'smaller' languages that GerardM mentions? Just FYI, the ISO 639 and Ethnologue are grossly incomplete in their coverage of world languages. One must assume some 10 times to 100 times more natural languages are currently in use than listed. Some single additions have been made through the BCP47 and IANA, such as en-GB-scouse representing the Scouse dialect of British English, or sl-rozaj-lipaw — the Lipovaz dialect of Resian which is itself a variant of Slovenian spoken in Italy. In other fields, due differentiation is still lacking. For example, in the swiss Alps, almost ever village in ever vallley has its on language variety which are often mutually hardly comprehesible, but they all together have only one language code, gsw, wich also covers a large part of Germanies South West and South Eastern France and their local language varieties. You can easily look up from a map that there are hundreds of cities, towns, villages, valleys, and even if only a thenth of them had a language of their own, gsw actually represts more than 1000 distinct languages. Considerig both spelling AND pronunciation, the deserve to be differenciated. This is not meant do discourage you, or to say it was not manageable. You only need to be aware, that taking care of the few languages currently listed in ethnologue will not suffice, and coding them must be expected to be a bit more complex, than it appears at first sight. In terms of British English (en-gb) and English (en) distinction, why not just code English in Wikidata as ISO 639-3eng per http://www.ethnologue.com/language/eng[http://www.ethnologue.com/language/eng] as part of a careful design for all languages, and then build out for smaller languages? (CC wiki WUaS is planning wiki schools in all 7,106 languages, plus dead and invented languages). While the current 7106 is way too low, it does include some Macrolanguages (i.e. language groups) and many extinct and some invented languages. It seems that using or keying in on the ISO system, or a similar one, would allow for remarkable extensibility and careful design of Wikidata, as well as fallback for other languages such as Hindi, Odia or Malayalam. Yes indeed, only blindly following a body like SIL (editor of ISO 639-3 and Etnologue, btw. a fundamental christian missionary organization) with their rather slow process of adding languages (taking years) might be limiting our capacities and speed. I suggest that we evaluate our own needs first, then determine how to meet them best, and then cooperate with others. Purodha ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Hoi, There are standards that define British English et al. It makes part of the ISO codes. We do not have to invent something like ISO 639-3eng. Thanks, GerardM On 5 May 2014 20:39, Scott MacLeod worlduniversityandsch...@gmail.comwrote: Hi Joe, Magnus, Andrew, GerardM, Jane, Daniel and Wikidatans, Since Language fallback is not a luxury like it is for British English, it is essential for all the smaller languages. It is what prevents it from being editable / usable (per GerardM), and in terms of Reasonator, statements, and careful design (DanielK), what are current Wikidata processes to plan eventually for all 7,106 living languages (plus even dead and invented languages) in the world per Ethnologue: Languages of the World, Seventeenth edition (http://www.ethnologue.com/statistics/size), as people add them, and use, for example, the ISO coding system (or similar) for this, to anticipate not yet added languages, and especially for 'smaller' languages that GerardM mentions? In terms of British English (en-gb) and English (en) distinction, why not just code English in Wikidata as ISO 639-3eng per http://www.ethnologue.com/language/eng as part of a careful design for all languages, and then build out for smaller languages? (CC wiki WUaS is planning wiki schools in all 7,106 languages, plus dead and invented languages). It seems that using or keying in on the ISO system, or a similar one, would allow for remarkable extensibility and careful design of Wikidata, as well as fallback for other languages such as Hindi, Odia or Malayalam. Cheers, Scott On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 4:11 AM, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi, I am talking about statements.. I am not asking for selecting items that have no label in a language.. This would only work if auto descriptions are in use. Thanks, GerardM On 5 May 2014 12:52, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 05.05.2014 10:57, schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, When the other languages box needs to become more flexible, it is a different problem that has nothing to do with the ability to understand what statements are made. At this time it is an absolute inability when there is no label in *YOUR* language. You are talking about picking an item as a link target when creating a statement when tehre is no label for the target item in your exact variant? Yes, we can and should implement fallback for that more swiftly. In fact, I was under the impression this was already in place... Lydia, do we have ticket for that? -- daniel PS: it's not an *absolute* inability: you can enter the ID directly. But that's not very nice, I know. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l -- - Scott MacLeod - Founder President - http://scottmacleod.com/interlingual/worlduniversityandschool.html - World University and School - like Wikipedia with MIT OpenCourseWare (not endorsed by MIT OCW) - incorporated as a nonprofit effective April 2010. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Hoi, Purodha what you say about Ethnologue is very biases, wrong and often hardly relevant. When you know your history, Ethnologue was asked if they would bring in their expertise and system in the ISO processes because the existing ISO-639-2 was extremely inadequate. When it was included, it became part of an established process whereby experts from national standard bodies decide on the further development. Effectively the role of Ethnologue is one of administrator, not initiator. Saying that all the issues about languages is because to Ethnlogue is completely false. The notion if there are many more languages is very much open to debate. There is no good answer. When you are interested in looking beyond the ISO-639-3 consider the ISO-639-6. It aims to include any and all language variants and it is not that interested in using the political term what language has become. Thanks, GerardM On 6 May 2014 14:02, P. Blissenbach pu...@web.de wrote: Scott MacLeod worlduniversityandsch...@gmail.com writes: Hi Joe, Magnus, Andrew, GerardM, Jane, Daniel and Wikidatans, Since Language fallback is not a luxury like it is for British English, it is essential for all the smaller languages. It is what prevents it from being editable / usable (per GerardM), and in terms of Reasonator, statements, and careful design (DanielK), what are current Wikidata processes to plan eventually for all 7,106 living languages (plus even dead and invented languages) in the world per Ethnologue: Languages of the World, Seventeenth edition (http://www.ethnologue.com/statistics/size), as people add them, and use, for example, the ISO coding system (or similar) for this, to anticipate not yet added languages, and especially for 'smaller' languages that GerardM mentions? Just FYI, the ISO 639 and Ethnologue are grossly incomplete in their coverage of world languages. One must assume some 10 times to 100 times more natural languages are currently in use than listed. Some single additions have been made through the BCP47 and IANA, such as en-GB-scouse representing the Scouse dialect of British English, or sl-rozaj-lipaw — the Lipovaz dialect of Resian which is itself a variant of Slovenian spoken in Italy. In other fields, due differentiation is still lacking. For example, in the swiss Alps, almost ever village in ever vallley has its on language variety which are often mutually hardly comprehesible, but they all together have only one language code, gsw, wich also covers a large part of Germanies South West and South Eastern France and their local language varieties. You can easily look up from a map that there are hundreds of cities, towns, villages, valleys, and even if only a thenth of them had a language of their own, gsw actually represts more than 1000 distinct languages. Considerig both spelling AND pronunciation, the deserve to be differenciated. This is not meant do discourage you, or to say it was not manageable. You only need to be aware, that taking care of the few languages currently listed in ethnologue will not suffice, and coding them must be expected to be a bit more complex, than it appears at first sight. In terms of British English (en-gb) and English (en) distinction, why not just code English in Wikidata as ISO 639-3eng per http://www.ethnologue.com/language/eng[http://www.ethnologue.com/language/eng] as part of a careful design for all languages, and then build out for smaller languages? (CC wiki WUaS is planning wiki schools in all 7,106 languages, plus dead and invented languages). While the current 7106 is way too low, it does include some Macrolanguages (i.e. language groups) and many extinct and some invented languages. It seems that using or keying in on the ISO system, or a similar one, would allow for remarkable extensibility and careful design of Wikidata, as well as fallback for other languages such as Hindi, Odia or Malayalam. Yes indeed, only blindly following a body like SIL (editor of ISO 639-3 and Etnologue, btw. a fundamental christian missionary organization) with their rather slow process of adding languages (taking years) might be limiting our capacities and speed. I suggest that we evaluate our own needs first, then determine how to meet them best, and then cooperate with others. Purodha ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com writes: Hoi, There are standards that define British English et al. It makes part of the ISO codes. We do not have to invent something like ISO 639-3eng. Indeed. There is a nice tool maintained by W3C corroborator Richard Ishida to look up current IANA defined language tags, and their constituents (subtags) at: http://rishida.net/utils/subtags/ Greetings -- Purodha ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Great, Purodha, GerardM and Wikidatans, I've gathered together some Language Code standardization sources, all potentially helpful for unfolding good design, here ... Language Code Ethnologue (Ethnologue now uses ISO 639 codes) http://www.ethnologue.com/browse/codes ISO 639 (International Organization for Standardization) http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards/language_codes.htm ISO-639-3 (International Organization for Standardization) http://www-01.sil.org/iso639-3/codes.asp ISO-639-6 (International Organization for Standardization) (This aims to include any and all language variants and it is not that interested in using the political term what language has become). http://www.geolang.com/iso639-6/ Language Subtag Lookup (A nice tool maintained by W3C corroborator Richard Ishida to look up current IANA defined language tags, and their constituents (subtags)). http://rishida.net/utils/subtags/ . I've also added these initially to some CC wiki WUaS Language pages (see below), which 7,106+ MIT OCW-centric wiki-school plans will allow for many more language additions with time. As one Wikidata focus, probably already explored, it seems to make sense to engage the ISO 639 codes and standards, since ISO-639-3 and ISO-639-6 seem to address some of both of your concerns. Does anyone know how ISO-639-6, for example, allows for, or encodes, invented, dead, animal/species' communication (or even computer languages as human languages)? Cheers, Scott On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 5:26 AM, P. Blissenbach pu...@web.de wrote: Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com writes: Hoi, There are standards that define British English et al. It makes part of the ISO codes. We do not have to invent something like ISO 639-3eng. Indeed. There is a nice tool maintained by W3C corroborator Richard Ishida to look up current IANA defined language tags, and their constituents (subtags) at: http://rishida.net/utils/subtags/ Greetings -- Purodha ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l -- - http://worlduniversity.wikia.com/wiki/Languages - http://worlduniversity.wikia.com/wiki/LANGUAGE_TEMPLATE - http://scottmacleod.com/interlingual/worlduniversityandschool.html - World University and School - like Wikipedia with MIT OpenCourseWare (not endorsed by MIT OCW) - incorporated as a nonprofit effective April 2010. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com wrote: Hoi,Purodha what you say about Ethnologue is very biases, wrong and often hardly relevant. I am sorry if my contribution was biased. My main goal was to warn that there are more than 7000-odd languages, extending ISO 639-3 is time consuming, and that we have the BCP47 defining language variants in addition to ISO 639. When you know your history, Ethnologue was asked if they would bring in their expertise and system in the ISO processes because the existing ISO-639-2 was extremely inadequate. When it was included, it became part of an established process whereby experts from national standard bodies decide on the further development. Effectively the role of Ethnologue is one of administrator, not initiator. Thrue. Saying that all the issues about languages is because to Ethnlogue is completely false. I was not meaning to say that. The notion if there are many more languages is very much open to debate. There is no good answer. Sure, it depends. Also, I do not want to put blame on anyone. Naturally, whatever you collect, you start somewhere, it will take time, and at some point you have an incomplete, but growing list. That is how I see Ethnologue. I keep mailing them data knowing that they are going to need their time to verify and process it. Taking into account what we likely have to use as a definition for language is, whether or not labels, lexemes, or similar, are spelled pronunced, signalled, or syntactically/grammatically put together differently enough to warrant that we call them distinct from another language. I am well aware that this is a foggy thing and there are many instances that can cause controversies. When you are interested in looking beyond the ISO-639-3 consider the ISO-639-6. It aims to include any and all language variants and it is not that interested in using the political term what language has become. I was considering to mention it in my post. I did not, mainly for bevity. Yet also, I doubt, it's in a useful state already. Last fall or late summer, it had almost twice as many entries as ISO 639-3, language coverage in my main field was as incomplete as ISO 639, it was not publicized in a well usable way (Website down since long. Before that, queryable in a complicated and inefficient manner for individual entries and small sets only. No listings available online. No details beyond language names. Good news: the web site is partly online again as of today.) Yes, I do consider ISO 639-6. I am happy about it's clearer and simpler approach to the subject matter, and I am looking forward to using it, as its coverage grows. Purodha ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
On 4 May 2014 13:17, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 04.05.2014 09:00, schrieb Lydia Pintscher: On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 1:28 AM, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Where are we with fallback languages? The status is that we have a plan for the next steps. I realize it is important but currently not doable in the next say 3 months. I would like to add some information about why language fallback is not as easily done as it may seem. Fallback for *display* is simple enough (as reasonator proves) - but we allow editing, which makes this much harder. Consider the case of a user with their language set to en-gb, but seeing a label in en due to fallback. What should happen if they click edit? Which label will they be editing, the en one or the en-gb one? They should really be able to do both, and the consequences of their edit should be obvious to them. When automatic transliteration comes into play, as is the case with some chinese variants, things become more complex still. This is not impossible to solve (e.g. by showing edit boxes for all the relevant variants, with some additional information), but needs careful design. This cannot be done overnight. BTW, this is a shared design need in VisualEditor for language variant support (we should show one item/term because that's what users expect from read mode, but then how do we show when the user is editing that term which changes they've made have applied automatically to other variants and which didn't, and why). J. -- James D. Forrester jdforres...@gmail.com [[Wikipedia:User:Jdforrester|James F.]] (speaking purely in a personal capacity) ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Am 04.05.2014 22:50, schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, When you see a label in Reasonator, you will find that when it is not in *YOUR* language, it is underlined in red. You can hover over a label and you will be prompted to add a label in the named language. Nice. Label and Description should go together though. ONLY your language. So you see a typo, want to edit it, get en empty edit box (what? why?), enter the correct spelling, save it, and see it for your variant - but you didn't fix the actual mistake. You provided a new label in a different variant. Confusing. We need a better solution. The wiki expectation is that you can edit what you see. On top of that, we want people to provide variant labels. These two things need to be combined nicely. Wikidata being Wikidata can provide the option as it already does to see multiple labels for the languages as selected in the #Babel template. That is the obvious place to see and edit labels in multiple languages. Except that doesn't work for Aliases. And generally, people doe *not* set variants in their babel boxes (yea, I speak us english, british english, canadian english and australian english...). Yes, this obviously needs to be integrated. How, exactly? When you think that language fallback in Reasonator is easy, it is very much because the options have been considered properly. It does provide fall back in a user specified manner. It does show all the labels used for an item but it does NOT provide an option to edit them. It could, but this is left for Wikidata itself just like adding statements has been left to Wikidata. Yea, leave the complicated part to us, but don't complain that it takes time :) There are three parts to an item in Wikidata. Labels, statements and links. It is best imho not to complicate things and leave this partition in place. By links you mean sitelinks? How about referenced items? Fallback needs to apply there too. And you forget aliases. Labels, descriptions and aliases kind of go together. They are editable, and should be integrated with Babel stuff. Labels of referenced sitelinks should have fallback applied, but are not editable. Sitelinks are unrelated. As I said: it needs careful design. -- daniel -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de writes: Am 05.05.2014 01:35, schrieb Joe Filceolaire: I agree with Gerard that you only edit your language label in the 'label' edit box. If the label box is showing the label in a fallback language then it should be visually different - greyed out and italic for instance or like the 'edit label in English' text. If a user wants to edit other language labels then that is what the 'in other languages' boxes are for. That's probably a good approach, but would need the other languages box to become more flexible, and include aliases. It's also strange to have it visually separate from the thing you actually want to change. Not easy to get this right. Since my other languages box is using some more than 5 maximal screen heights, having it slightly separated does not disturb me. Not any more, at least. There are two things which are not directly related to variants but imho could be fixed in one go with them: - Entries are using up much too much valuable space. I wish to delete all whitespace, and use a more list orientated approach. At least as an option. - it is really frustrating that I cannot enter many labels which I know since Wikidata (for no apparent reason) does not allow labels to be added for a whole lot of languages, and that my babel list has to be incomplete because #babel does not offer many languages. Purodha ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Am 05.05.2014 10:41, schrieb P. Blissenbach: There are two things which are not directly related to variants but imho could be fixed in one go with them: - Entries are using up much too much valuable space. I wish to delete all whitespace, and use a more list orientated approach. At least as an option. - it is really frustrating that I cannot enter many labels which I know since Wikidata (for no apparent reason) does not allow labels to be added for a whole lot of languages, and that my babel list has to be incomplete because #babel does not offer many languages. It should be relatively easy to write a gadget that allows this. Could even be a single text box, with one language per line - a terse power user interface. The whitespace thing could easily be done as a gadget as well. Is there a gadget kitchen on wikidata.org yet? -- daniel -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Hoi, When you want to do the stuff you are talking about, you do it in Wikidata in the area where all the aliases, descriptions and stuff is. That is for that specific item. When you see fall backs in the statement area of an item, it is a SERVICE that you can add missing labels. When they are wrong, you can edit them. You do this on the item itself. Daniel, what you suggest is overly complicated and the notion that it has to be perfect stands in the way of implementing a working solution. A solution that is the difference between statements that are useful and statements that are absolutely useless in most languages. Thanks, GerardM On 5 May 2014 10:19, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 04.05.2014 22:50, schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, When you see a label in Reasonator, you will find that when it is not in *YOUR* language, it is underlined in red. You can hover over a label and you will be prompted to add a label in the named language. Nice. Label and Description should go together though. ONLY your language. So you see a typo, want to edit it, get en empty edit box (what? why?), enter the correct spelling, save it, and see it for your variant - but you didn't fix the actual mistake. You provided a new label in a different variant. Confusing. We need a better solution. The wiki expectation is that you can edit what you see. On top of that, we want people to provide variant labels. These two things need to be combined nicely. Wikidata being Wikidata can provide the option as it already does to see multiple labels for the languages as selected in the #Babel template. That is the obvious place to see and edit labels in multiple languages. Except that doesn't work for Aliases. And generally, people doe *not* set variants in their babel boxes (yea, I speak us english, british english, canadian english and australian english...). Yes, this obviously needs to be integrated. How, exactly? When you think that language fallback in Reasonator is easy, it is very much because the options have been considered properly. It does provide fall back in a user specified manner. It does show all the labels used for an item but it does NOT provide an option to edit them. It could, but this is left for Wikidata itself just like adding statements has been left to Wikidata. Yea, leave the complicated part to us, but don't complain that it takes time :) There are three parts to an item in Wikidata. Labels, statements and links. It is best imho not to complicate things and leave this partition in place. By links you mean sitelinks? How about referenced items? Fallback needs to apply there too. And you forget aliases. Labels, descriptions and aliases kind of go together. They are editable, and should be integrated with Babel stuff. Labels of referenced sitelinks should have fallback applied, but are not editable. Sitelinks are unrelated. As I said: it needs careful design. -- daniel -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Hoi, When the other languages box needs to become more flexible, it is a different problem that has nothing to do with the ability to understand what statements are made. At this time it is an absolute inability when there is no label in *YOUR* language. Thanks, GerardM On 5 May 2014 10:21, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 05.05.2014 01:35, schrieb Joe Filceolaire: I agree with Gerard that you only edit your language label in the 'label' edit box. If the label box is showing the label in a fallback language then it should be visually different - greyed out and italic for instance or like the 'edit label in English' text. If a user wants to edit other language labels then that is what the 'in other languages' boxes are for. That's probably a good approach, but would need the other languages box to become more flexible, and include aliases. It's also strange to have it visually separate from the thing you actually want to change. Not easy to get this right. -- daniel -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Hi all, What I don't understand is the need to keep all labels blank until they are updated by hand. Especially for biographical articles, it would be nice to have original spellings of the person's name, even if it's Chinese or something else really far away from English. That might serve as a prompt to people to update the label more than blank, no? Take a look at this person: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q11287651 There are so many variants in spelling of the name, but I consider them all correct, depending on the source. In the case of historical people, can't a bot go through and update the labels so that queries will return something? Anything is better than blank, I think. Jane 2014-05-05 10:57 GMT+02:00, Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com: Hoi, When the other languages box needs to become more flexible, it is a different problem that has nothing to do with the ability to understand what statements are made. At this time it is an absolute inability when there is no label in *YOUR* language. Thanks, GerardM On 5 May 2014 10:21, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 05.05.2014 01:35, schrieb Joe Filceolaire: I agree with Gerard that you only edit your language label in the 'label' edit box. If the label box is showing the label in a fallback language then it should be visually different - greyed out and italic for instance or like the 'edit label in English' text. If a user wants to edit other language labels then that is what the 'in other languages' boxes are for. That's probably a good approach, but would need the other languages box to become more flexible, and include aliases. It's also strange to have it visually separate from the thing you actually want to change. Not easy to get this right. -- daniel -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
On Mon, May 5, 2014 at 11:55 AM, Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, What I don't understand is the need to keep all labels blank until they are updated by hand. Especially for biographical articles, it would be nice to have original spellings of the person's name, even if it's Chinese or something else really far away from English. That might serve as a prompt to people to update the label more than blank, no? Take a look at this person: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q11287651 That's exactly why we need language fallback, yes. There are so many variants in spelling of the name, but I consider them all correct, depending on the source. In the case of historical people, can't a bot go through and update the labels so that queries will return something? Anything is better than blank, I think. That's already happening. It just takes time. Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Am 05.05.2014 10:57, schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, When the other languages box needs to become more flexible, it is a different problem that has nothing to do with the ability to understand what statements are made. At this time it is an absolute inability when there is no label in *YOUR* language. You are talking about picking an item as a link target when creating a statement when tehre is no label for the target item in your exact variant? Yes, we can and should implement fallback for that more swiftly. In fact, I was under the impression this was already in place... Lydia, do we have ticket for that? -- daniel PS: it's not an *absolute* inability: you can enter the ID directly. But that's not very nice, I know. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Am 05.05.2014 10:55, schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Daniel, what you suggest is overly complicated and the notion that it has to be perfect stands in the way of implementing a working solution. A solution that is the difference between statements that are useful and statements that are absolutely useless in most languages. I actually agree with you for statements. I was talking about the label/description/alias area. For items referenced in statements, we should have fallback for display and item selection more swiftly. But still, it will not be tomorrow. -- daniel -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Hoi, I am talking about statements.. I am not asking for selecting items that have no label in a language.. This would only work if auto descriptions are in use. Thanks, GerardM On 5 May 2014 12:52, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 05.05.2014 10:57, schrieb Gerard Meijssen: Hoi, When the other languages box needs to become more flexible, it is a different problem that has nothing to do with the ability to understand what statements are made. At this time it is an absolute inability when there is no label in *YOUR* language. You are talking about picking an item as a link target when creating a statement when tehre is no label for the target item in your exact variant? Yes, we can and should implement fallback for that more swiftly. In fact, I was under the impression this was already in place... Lydia, do we have ticket for that? -- daniel PS: it's not an *absolute* inability: you can enter the ID directly. But that's not very nice, I know. -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 1:28 AM, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Where are we with fallback languages? I did a session for new editors with Magnus last weekend and one of the questions that came up was why one of the students couldn't see most of the labels - he had his language set to British English. He asked why there was no fallback to international English. The status is that we have a plan for the next steps. I realize it is important but currently not doable in the next say 3 months. There is simply too much to do (queries, statements on properties, UI redesign, quantities with units, entity suggester, starting with Commons). If anyone is able and willing to take this on please send me an email. As for disabling en-gb for now: Daniel, Katie: What do you say? Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 1:40 AM, Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk wrote: It's the same in 2014. If you visit the site from the UK while not logged in, you get encouraged to View Wikidata in British English through the internationalisation header, despite the fact that this will make it less usable, less comprehensible, and generally less informative. There's no indication that this will screw things up, and no obvious way for an inexpert user to figure out how to fix it (by switching back to en-default) If fallback languages aren't going to be available soon, then we really need to think - at the very least - about disabling this message. Yes I think that makes sense. Does anyone know details about that? As in: how to turn it off? Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Hoi, The question is much bigger than British English. If you language is Hindi, Odia or Malayalam you will find that many labels are just not available. The one reason why Reasonator is so important is that it does provide language fall back. Language fallback is not a luxury like it is for British English, it is essential for all the smaller languages. It is what prevents it from being editable / usable. Thanks, GerardM On 4 May 2014 09:00, Lydia Pintscher lydia.pintsc...@wikimedia.de wrote: On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 1:28 AM, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Where are we with fallback languages? I did a session for new editors with Magnus last weekend and one of the questions that came up was why one of the students couldn't see most of the labels - he had his language set to British English. He asked why there was no fallback to international English. The status is that we have a plan for the next steps. I realize it is important but currently not doable in the next say 3 months. There is simply too much to do (queries, statements on properties, UI redesign, quantities with units, entity suggester, starting with Commons). If anyone is able and willing to take this on please send me an email. As for disabling en-gb for now: Daniel, Katie: What do you say? Cheers Lydia -- Lydia Pintscher - http://about.me/lydia.pintscher Product Manager for Wikidata Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 10963 Berlin www.wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e. V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 Nz. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Lydia Pintscher, 04/05/2014 09:03: If fallback languages aren't going to be available soon, then we really need to think - at the very least - about disabling this message. Yes I think that makes sense. Does anyone know details about that? As in: how to turn it off? Very easy. https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=MediaWiki_talk%3ACommon.jsdiff=125270762oldid=94132161 Nemo ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Hoi, When you see a label in Reasonator, you will find that when it is not in *YOUR* language, it is underlined in red. You can hover over a label and you will be prompted to add a label in the named language. ONLY your language. Wikidata being Wikidata can provide the option as it already does to see multiple labels for the languages as selected in the #Babel template. That is the obvious place to see and edit labels in multiple languages. When you think that language fallback in Reasonator is easy, it is very much because the options have been considered properly. It does provide fall back in a user specified manner. It does show all the labels used for an item but it does NOT provide an option to edit them. It could, but this is left for Wikidata itself just like adding statements has been left to Wikidata. There are three parts to an item in Wikidata. Labels, statements and links. It is best imho not to complicate things and leave this partition in place. Thanks, GerardM On 4 May 2014 22:17, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 04.05.2014 09:00, schrieb Lydia Pintscher: On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 1:28 AM, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Where are we with fallback languages? I did a session for new editors with Magnus last weekend and one of the questions that came up was why one of the students couldn't see most of the labels - he had his language set to British English. He asked why there was no fallback to international English. The status is that we have a plan for the next steps. I realize it is important but currently not doable in the next say 3 months. I would like to add some information about why language fallback is not as easily done as it may seem. Fallback for *display* is simple enough (as reasonator proves) - but we allow editing, which makes this much harder. Consider the case of a user with their language set to en-gb, but seeing a label in en due to fallback. What should happen if they click edit? Which label will they be editing, the en one or the en-gb one? They should really be able to do both, and the consequences of their edit should be obvious to them. When automatic transliteration comes into play, as is the case with some chinese variants, things become more complex still. This is not impossible to solve (e.g. by showing edit boxes for all the relevant variants, with some additional information), but needs careful design. This cannot be done overnight. -- daniel -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Hey everyone, It's quite annoying every time I want to use a item, but it has no Dutch label. So it doesn't show up if you want to use it with like adding statements. Fallback is a big thing. Greetings, Sjoerd Op 4 mei 2014 om 22:50 heeft Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com het volgende geschreven: Hoi, When you see a label in Reasonator, you will find that when it is not in *YOUR* language, it is underlined in red. You can hover over a label and you will be prompted to add a label in the named language. ONLY your language. Wikidata being Wikidata can provide the option as it already does to see multiple labels for the languages as selected in the #Babel template. That is the obvious place to see and edit labels in multiple languages. When you think that language fallback in Reasonator is easy, it is very much because the options have been considered properly. It does provide fall back in a user specified manner. It does show all the labels used for an item but it does NOT provide an option to edit them. It could, but this is left for Wikidata itself just like adding statements has been left to Wikidata. There are three parts to an item in Wikidata. Labels, statements and links. It is best imho not to complicate things and leave this partition in place. Thanks, GerardM On 4 May 2014 22:17, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 04.05.2014 09:00, schrieb Lydia Pintscher: On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 1:28 AM, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Where are we with fallback languages? I did a session for new editors with Magnus last weekend and one of the questions that came up was why one of the students couldn't see most of the labels - he had his language set to British English. He asked why there was no fallback to international English. The status is that we have a plan for the next steps. I realize it is important but currently not doable in the next say 3 months. I would like to add some information about why language fallback is not as easily done as it may seem. Fallback for *display* is simple enough (as reasonator proves) - but we allow editing, which makes this much harder. Consider the case of a user with their language set to en-gb, but seeing a label in en due to fallback. What should happen if they click edit? Which label will they be editing, the en one or the en-gb one? They should really be able to do both, and the consequences of their edit should be obvious to them. When automatic transliteration comes into play, as is the case with some chinese variants, things become more complex still. This is not impossible to solve (e.g. by showing edit boxes for all the relevant variants, with some additional information), but needs careful design. This cannot be done overnight. -- daniel -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
I agree with Gerard that you only edit your language label in the 'label' edit box. If the label box is showing the label in a fallback language then it should be visually different - greyed out and italic for instance or like the 'edit label in English' text. If a user wants to edit other language labels then that is what the 'in other languages' boxes are for. If a fall back language is shown anywhere else then do something similar and add an 'edit in your language' link. At least that is what I think. Joe On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 10:09 PM, Sjoerd de Bruin sjoerddebr...@me.comwrote: Hey everyone, It's quite annoying every time I want to use a item, but it has no Dutch label. So it doesn't show up if you want to use it with like adding statements. Fallback is a big thing. Greetings, Sjoerd Op 4 mei 2014 om 22:50 heeft Gerard Meijssen gerard.meijs...@gmail.com het volgende geschreven: Hoi, When you see a label in Reasonator, you will find that when it is not in *YOUR* language, it is underlined in red. You can hover over a label and you will be prompted to add a label in the named language. ONLY your language. Wikidata being Wikidata can provide the option as it already does to see multiple labels for the languages as selected in the #Babel template. That is the obvious place to see and edit labels in multiple languages. When you think that language fallback in Reasonator is easy, it is very much because the options have been considered properly. It does provide fall back in a user specified manner. It does show all the labels used for an item but it does NOT provide an option to edit them. It could, but this is left for Wikidata itself just like adding statements has been left to Wikidata. There are three parts to an item in Wikidata. Labels, statements and links. It is best imho not to complicate things and leave this partition in place. Thanks, GerardM On 4 May 2014 22:17, Daniel Kinzler daniel.kinz...@wikimedia.de wrote: Am 04.05.2014 09:00, schrieb Lydia Pintscher: On Sun, May 4, 2014 at 1:28 AM, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Where are we with fallback languages? I did a session for new editors with Magnus last weekend and one of the questions that came up was why one of the students couldn't see most of the labels - he had his language set to British English. He asked why there was no fallback to international English. The status is that we have a plan for the next steps. I realize it is important but currently not doable in the next say 3 months. I would like to add some information about why language fallback is not as easily done as it may seem. Fallback for *display* is simple enough (as reasonator proves) - but we allow editing, which makes this much harder. Consider the case of a user with their language set to en-gb, but seeing a label in en due to fallback. What should happen if they click edit? Which label will they be editing, the en one or the en-gb one? They should really be able to do both, and the consequences of their edit should be obvious to them. When automatic transliteration comes into play, as is the case with some chinese variants, things become more complex still. This is not impossible to solve (e.g. by showing edit boxes for all the relevant variants, with some additional information), but needs careful design. This cannot be done overnight. -- daniel -- Daniel Kinzler Senior Software Developer Wikimedia Deutschland Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Hey, Anything to add? Please share! :) You forgot the part where we made big improvements to the DataModel component :) I wrote a blog post about some of that http://www.bn2vs.com/blog/2014/04/30/wikibase-datamodel-entity-v2/ Cheers -- Jeroen De Dauw - http://www.bn2vs.com Software craftsmanship advocate Evil software architect at Wikimedia Germany ~=[,,_,,]:3 ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
Where are we with fallback languages? I did a session for new editors with Magnus last weekend and one of the questions that came up was why one of the students couldn't see most of the labels - he had his language set to British English. He asked why there was no fallback to international English. Joe On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 8:34 PM, Jeroen De Dauw jeroended...@gmail.comwrote: Hey, Anything to add? Please share! :) You forgot the part where we made big improvements to the DataModel component :) I wrote a blog post about some of that http://www.bn2vs.com/blog/2014/04/30/wikibase-datamodel-entity-v2/ Cheers -- Jeroen De Dauw - http://www.bn2vs.com Software craftsmanship advocate Evil software architect at Wikimedia Germany ~=[,,_,,]:3 ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
Re: [Wikidata-l] weekly summary #108
British English is a real issue. Personally, I think it's a bit silly to have it as a language option (Wikipedia has managed for ten years with an en-common approach!), but I can understand why people want to have it for the 0.5% of cases where en-gb might differ from en-us. However... the current existence of a British English internationalisation actually breaks things for people who, in all good faith, select it. My comments from this time last year: https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Requests_for_comment/Labels_and_descriptions_in_language_variants#British_English It's the same in 2014. If you visit the site from the UK while not logged in, you get encouraged to View Wikidata in British English through the internationalisation header, despite the fact that this will make it less usable, less comprehensible, and generally less informative. There's no indication that this will screw things up, and no obvious way for an inexpert user to figure out how to fix it (by switching back to en-default) If fallback languages aren't going to be available soon, then we really need to think - at the very least - about disabling this message. Andrew. On 4 May 2014 00:28, Joe Filceolaire filceola...@gmail.com wrote: Where are we with fallback languages? I did a session for new editors with Magnus last weekend and one of the questions that came up was why one of the students couldn't see most of the labels - he had his language set to British English. He asked why there was no fallback to international English. Joe On Sat, May 3, 2014 at 8:34 PM, Jeroen De Dauw jeroended...@gmail.com wrote: Hey, Anything to add? Please share! :) You forgot the part where we made big improvements to the DataModel component :) I wrote a blog post about some of that http://www.bn2vs.com/blog/2014/04/30/wikibase-datamodel-entity-v2/ Cheers -- Jeroen De Dauw - http://www.bn2vs.com Software craftsmanship advocate Evil software architect at Wikimedia Germany ~=[,,_,,]:3 ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l -- - Andrew Gray andrew.g...@dunelm.org.uk ___ Wikidata-l mailing list Wikidata-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikidata-l
