Re: [Wikimedia-l] New Chair of the Supervisory Board – the 14th WMDE General Assembly in retrospect
Congratulations on your new role Tim. In all noise generated on this list by the bizzare detour into Wikipediocracy last week, I was surprised that the other major announcement - about the fundamental changes at WMDE (particularly regarding Pavel Richter) - were not discussed at all. For such a major announcement it was almost as if the list had been stunned into silence. I don't think I can think of another similarly significant event in the Wikiverse that has had so little response on this, often verbose, mailing list. I have absolutely no doubt that there are thousands and thousands of words written on German-language lists, but all I've seen is the WIkipedia Signpost's report: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2014-05-21/News_and_notes I would appreciate if someone could point to good summaries of the issues that led to this radical change. -Liam wittylama.com Peace, love metadata ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] 2015 strategic plan
Hi, can someone with knowledge of WMF's thinking expand on this statement from Lila? Starting the process for our next strategic planning exercise, which will be different from last time, and focused on improving our ability to react quickly and adjust as necessary to opportunities and challenges. Is this implying that the entire strategic plan will focus on agility, or that agility will be a priority in the next strategic plan? Also, how was this decision reached? Thanks, Pine ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Hi all, This is a personal note to clarify a some questions that recently came up, specifically in the context of my role as the incoming ED. My partner Wil and I are partners in our private lives. We have always both been extremely independent, and we respect that in each other. That said we have different roles: I am the Executive Director with responsibilities towards the Foundation and the movement, and he is an independent community member with his own voice. I make my decisions using my own professional judgement in conjunction with input from the community and staff. I don’t consult Wil on these matters, ask him to do anything on my behalf or monitor his engagements with the community. When I speak here, it is in my capacity as an ED. Wil, on the other hand, has a very strong personal interest in the community and agreat deal of curiosity about how the Wikimedia projectswork. It is very important to him that he remains an independent individual able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF employees. I hope this addresses some of the questions and draws distinction between my role as ED and Wil’s participation as an independent member. If you have any questions for Wil you can reach him directly. If you have any questions for me or the WMF, you can get a hold of me by email or on my talk page. Thanks, Lila ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] 2015 strategic plan
Am 28.05.2014 09:31 schrieb ENWP Pine deyntest...@hotmail.com: Hi, can someone with knowledge of WMF's thinking expand on this statement from Lila? Starting the process for our next strategic planning exercise, which will be different from last time, and focused on improving our ability to react quickly and adjust as necessary to opportunities and challenges. Is this implying that the entire strategic plan will focus on agility, or that agility will be a priority in the next strategic plan? _that_ is a real pleasure to hear ... and if the basic principles are set and with them it is assured no quick jumping left, jumping right happens before things get a chance to properly mature it would be even more pleasure. Rupert ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] New Chair of the Supervisory Board – the 14th WMDE General Assembly in retrospect
Liam Wyatt, 28/05/2014 08:15: I was surprised that the other major announcement - about the fundamental changes at WMDE (particularly regarding Pavel Richter) - were not discussed at all. Do you mean you feel there was insufficient response to the announcement? Maybe you should reply there. http://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2014-May/071815.html It seems to me that WMDE is being very open and frank in this process by bringing it up for public discussion and decision-making since very early stages. There was a lot of discussion around the general assembly; it is my understanding that the WMDE board is digesting discussions and summarising their current thinking and the way ahead. For less active WMDE members and for non-members, it will be easier to understand and more appropriate to comment after that happens. Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] Today I became member of WMDE
Till now I had mixed feelings on the nature of Wikimedia Deutschland. On the one hand, I was (and I am) very thankful for creating one of the projects I'm active with, Wikidata, and supporting the one I most attached to, Wikisource. On the other hand, I was wary of its professionalization process and I had the feeling that it was developing away (or being led away) from its volunteering community. These last days have been a transformative experience for the organization. I acknowledge that professional workers (including the outgoing ED) brought a positive growth for the organization thanks to the donors' support and I hope their great work continues. However it is worth remembering that donors want to support mainly volunteers's work, and that any organization growing around the management of funds should have in mind that supporting the volunteer community and giving them control on how activities develop and how funds are spent it is crucial to keep trust and develop in the same direction. As a member of another organization that also has volunteering at its core, Amical Wikimedia, I want to congratulate WM-DE for giving this step and for giving me the chance to increase my trust in WM-DE to the point of joining them too. Great days for the Wikimedia movement! Cheers, Micru ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Today I became member of WMDE
This is great, Micru! A very warm welcome, and thanks for the trust you're putting in WMDE! Best, Markus Am 28.05.2014 10:57, schrieb David Cuenca: Till now I had mixed feelings on the nature of Wikimedia Deutschland. On the one hand, I was (and I am) very thankful for creating one of the projects I'm active with, Wikidata, and supporting the one I most attached to, Wikisource. On the other hand, I was wary of its professionalization process and I had the feeling that it was developing away (or being led away) from its volunteering community. These last days have been a transformative experience for the organization. I acknowledge that professional workers (including the outgoing ED) brought a positive growth for the organization thanks to the donors' support and I hope their great work continues. However it is worth remembering that donors want to support mainly volunteers's work, and that any organization growing around the management of funds should have in mind that supporting the volunteer community and giving them control on how activities develop and how funds are spent it is crucial to keep trust and develop in the same direction. As a member of another organization that also has volunteering at its core, Amical Wikimedia, I want to congratulate WM-DE for giving this step and for giving me the chance to increase my trust in WM-DE to the point of joining them too. Great days for the Wikimedia movement! Cheers, Micru ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Markus Glaser Präsidium Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] The first three weeks.
+1 Great to hearing your experience. As being a new ED too (3 months now) I can indentify myself with your experience: the first month is about listening and getting to know :) All the best for what is to come! Hope to meeting you asap! Hugs from Argentina. 2014-05-28 2:48 GMT-03:00 Nurunnaby Chowdhury n...@nhasive.com: +1 Thank you for this write-up. Happy to read..:) On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 7:24 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Lila Tretikov wrote: I wanted to give you an update on my first three weeks of Wikimedia immersion -- this will also go on the blog. As you probably noticed, my leadership approach is rooted in observation and focused discussions -- this means I watch and listen more than I talk. But I expect that you are probably curious about what I have observed and learned so far, and to know a little more about who I am. [...] Thank you for this write-up. It was nice to read. :-) Your recommendations on areas you see as priorities for development (while keeping in mind that not everything can be a priority at once!); [...] I think this continues to be a huge pain point. Developer resources are scarce and expensive and there's often a feeling that the latest Wikimedia Foundation initiatives trump all other worthwhile projects. I think we need to find a better way to more fairly allocate resources. As a concrete example, there continue to be dozens of Wikimedia Foundation developers and other staff specifically focused on the English Wikipedia and sometimes Wikimedia Commons, while the other sister projects such as Wiktionary, Wikibooks, and Wikisource continue to receive almost no direct attention. (Over the past few years, even the term sister projects has become mildly insulting. These projects are more accurately the red-headed stepchild projects.) This won't happen quickly, but we must make it a goal to do better in this area. MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- *Nurunnaby Chowdhury Hasive* Administrator | Bengali Wikipedia http://bn.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:nhasive Member | IEG Committee, Wikimedia Foundationhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/People Social Media Interaction Expert | The Daily Prothom-Alohttp://www.prothom-alo.com Bangladesh Ambassador | Open Knowledge Foundation Network http://www.okfn.org Treasurer | Bangladesh Open Source Network (BdOSN) http://www.bdosn.org Task Force Member | Mozilla Bangladesh http://www.mozillabd.org fb.com/nhasive | @nhasive http://www.twitter.com/nhasive | Skype: nhasive | www.nhasive.com ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Anna Torres Adell Directora Ejecutiva *A.C Wikimedia Argentina* *Imprime este correo solo si es realmente necesario* ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov l...@wikimedia.org wrote: ... independent individual able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF employees. Thanks for making these distinctions. It is sad to see that your time and energy is being used so early on in your introduction to the Wikimedia community, in creating a political distance between yourself and the public actions of your life partner, due to his casual curiosity about Wikimedia projects. A curiosity that only manifested itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the Foundation board. I do not really understand the point being made about not engaging with WMF employees, any active volunteer on Wikimedia projects should and must be free to engage with WMF employees. The statement does not appear to match actions over the last 24 hours, with Wil freely making public comments about his dissatisfaction after conversations (emails?) with some WMF employees. Thanks again for clarifying your position during this difficult start to your engagement. Fae -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
On 05/28/2014 08:59 AM, Fæ wrote: A curiosity that only manifested itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the Foundation board. In all fairness, Fæ, if my spouse had been hired as the leader of a very visible and significant business or nonprofit, I too would find myself interested in what it is, what its values are, and how it goes about things even if I had been previously unaware or uninterested in it. So that Wil's interest manifested around the time Lila was announced as the next ED seems to me to be perfectly natural, even if I have expressed serious concerns about *how* that interest was expressed. -- Marc ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Just a personal testimonial also to emphasize Marc's point and not necessarily when I did a work for WMF as a contractor, my previous girlfriend got interesting in Wikimedia projects after she saw somethings I worked on my spare time as a volunteer. She even began to write at Wikimedia Brasil mailing list and outreach Wikimedia projects. ;) In fact, she still does sometimes some outreach and have even participate of a Wikimedia meeting recently. (Well, better not say her opinion on Wikidramas, totally aligned with mine : ) Tom 2014-05-28 11:04 GMT-03:00 Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org: On 05/28/2014 08:59 AM, Fæ wrote: A curiosity that only manifested itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the Foundation board. In all fairness, Fæ, if my spouse had been hired as the leader of a very visible and significant business or nonprofit, I too would find myself interested in what it is, what its values are, and how it goes about things even if I had been previously unaware or uninterested in it. So that Wil's interest manifested around the time Lila was announced as the next ED seems to me to be perfectly natural, even if I have expressed serious concerns about *how* that interest was expressed. -- Marc -- Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom) Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre http://br.okfn.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
My wife, thanks to Viisual Editor, now creates pages! On 28 May 2014 16:21, Everton Zanella Alvarenga everton.alvare...@okfn.orgwrote: Just a personal testimonial also to emphasize Marc's point and not necessarily when I did a work for WMF as a contractor, my previous girlfriend got interesting in Wikimedia projects after she saw somethings I worked on my spare time as a volunteer. She even began to write at Wikimedia Brasil mailing list and outreach Wikimedia projects. ;) In fact, she still does sometimes some outreach and have even participate of a Wikimedia meeting recently. (Well, better not say her opinion on Wikidramas, totally aligned with mine : ) Tom 2014-05-28 11:04 GMT-03:00 Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org: On 05/28/2014 08:59 AM, Fæ wrote: A curiosity that only manifested itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the Foundation board. In all fairness, Fæ, if my spouse had been hired as the leader of a very visible and significant business or nonprofit, I too would find myself interested in what it is, what its values are, and how it goes about things even if I had been previously unaware or uninterested in it. So that Wil's interest manifested around the time Lila was announced as the next ED seems to me to be perfectly natural, even if I have expressed serious concerns about *how* that interest was expressed. -- Marc -- Everton Zanella Alvarenga (also Tom) Open Knowledge Brasil - Rede pelo Conhecimento Livre http://br.okfn.org ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- *Jon Davies - Chief Executive Wikimedia UK*. Mobile (0044) 7803 505 169 tweet @jonatreesdavies Wikimedia UK is a Company Limited by Guarantee registered in England and Wales, Registered No. 6741827. Registered Charity No.1144513. Registered Office 4th Floor, Development House, 56-64 Leonard Street, London EC2A 4LT. United Kingdom. Wikimedia UK is the UK chapter of a global Wikimedia movement. The Wikimedia projects are run by the Wikimedia Foundation (who operate Wikipedia, amongst other projects). Telephone (0044) 207 065 0990. Visit http://www.wikimedia.org.uk/ and @wikimediauk ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
On 28 May 2014 15:04, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: ... So that Wil's interest manifested around the time Lila was announced as the next ED seems to me to be perfectly natural, even if I have expressed serious concerns about *how* that interest was expressed. -- Marc There is a big difference between your partner having an interest in your organization, and going on to publish public complaints about the staff that you have complete authority and responsibility for employing. I may be wrong, perhaps someone has some examples of where this worked out well? The only examples from history and the political world I can recall, did not. Fae -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Welcome Rachel diCerbo, Director of Community Engagement
Welcome, Rachel. Congratulations on your new job! Birgit 2014-05-28 2:26 GMT+02:00 Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org: Hi folks, It’s my great pleasure to tell you that Rachel diCerbo is joining us as Director of Community Engagement (Product), starting today. In this role, Rachel will manage the community liaison team (Keegan Peterzell, Sherry Snyder, Nick Wilson, and Erica Litrenta) and ensure that our technical projects receive community engagement support throughout their development. Rachel discovered her love for collaborative communities with Couchsurfing. When she joined the community in 2005, Couchsurfing was a small non-profit, with essential functions being filled by volunteers. This included responding to safety issues: staying at someone else’s home or hosting a stranger carries risks, some obvious, some less so. Rachel founded and led the community’s all-volunteer safety team. She was also a member of the non-profit’s Board of Directors from 2007-2011. After volunteering for two years, she joined the organization full-time as Head of Trust Safety in 2008. She was responsible for enacting policies related to incident reporting, profile removal, and other safety issues, and handled any high level legal issues and communications related to Couchsurfing member safety. She implemented training, documentation, and case review processes for her team. As part of her role, she also directly interfaced with Couchsurfing’s engineering team and helped scope functionality related to safety moderation. The work on the safety team also equipped her well for working across culture and languages, as issues would often arise around differing cultural sensitivities. She’s travelled to 38 countries and lived on 5 continents. Prior to Couchsurfing, Rachel pursued a passion for theater while temping in various roles for various companies. Her additional interests include digital rights, women’s rights and safety worldwide, and scuba diving. In her spare time, she seeks to perfect her pulled pork recipe, sews, and reads all the things. Rachel is new to the community, and due to the nature of her role, she’ll be spending some time just learning how to edit and how things work in our weird wonderful world. She’s planning a face-to-face meeting with her team the week of June 9th and will be attending WikiConference USA later this week. Please join me in welcoming Rachel to the Wikimedia Foundation and to the community. Warmly, Erik PS: Big thanks to everyone who’s been part of the search process, to the liaison team for doing awesome work in an emerging structure, and to Philippe, Maggie and Howie for all their work in bootstrapping the team, and for supporting Rachel as she steps into the role. :-) -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Please note: all replies sent to this mailing list will be immediately directed to Wikimedia-l, the public mailing list of the Wikimedia community. For more information about Wikimedia-l: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ WikimediaAnnounce-l mailing list wikimediaannounc...@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaannounce-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Birgit Müller Team Communitys Community Liaison Volunteer Support Department E-Mail: birgit.muel...@wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0 http://wikimedia.de Stellen Sie sich eine Welt vor, in der jeder Mensch an der Menge allen Wissens frei teilhaben kann. Helfen Sie uns dabei! http://spenden.wikimedia.de/ Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
My significant other applied for a grant and got 500 Wikireaders distributed to 3 schools: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Aislinn_Dewey/Distribute_WikiReaders_to_Schools/Report https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/help-distribute-wikireaders-and-provide-an-opportunity-for-kids-to-learn On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 May 2014 15:04, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: ... So that Wil's interest manifested around the time Lila was announced as the next ED seems to me to be perfectly natural, even if I have expressed serious concerns about *how* that interest was expressed. -- Marc There is a big difference between your partner having an interest in your organization, and going on to publish public complaints about the staff that you have complete authority and responsibility for employing. I may be wrong, perhaps someone has some examples of where this worked out well? The only examples from history and the political world I can recall, did not. Fae -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- *Victor Grigas* Storyteller https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Knv6D6Thi0 Wikimedia Foundation vgri...@wikimedia.org https://donate.wikimedia.org/ ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Hi Victor, That's great. I can't see any complaints about WMF employees in the links you provided. I am sure that we could find 100 examples of the partners of Wikimedians doing something on Wikimedia projects, it would be a great topic for reasons why I love Wikimedia... That is not the issue here, in fact I encouraged Wil to get experience contributing to the projects *before* using highly public platforms to complain about Wikimedia and Lila's new employees. Thanks, Fae On 28 May 2014 16:49, Victor Grigas vgri...@wikimedia.org wrote: My significant other applied for a grant and got 500 Wikireaders distributed to 3 schools: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Aislinn_Dewey/Distribute_WikiReaders_to_Schools/Report https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/help-distribute-wikireaders-and-provide-an-opportunity-for-kids-to-learn On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 May 2014 15:04, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: ... So that Wil's interest manifested around the time Lila was announced as the next ED seems to me to be perfectly natural, even if I have expressed serious concerns about *how* that interest was expressed. -- Marc There is a big difference between your partner having an interest in your organization, and going on to publish public complaints about the staff that you have complete authority and responsibility for employing. I may be wrong, perhaps someone has some examples of where this worked out well? The only examples from history and the political world I can recall, did not. Fae -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- *Victor Grigas* Storyteller https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Knv6D6Thi0 Wikimedia Foundation vgri...@wikimedia.org https://donate.wikimedia.org/ ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
On 5/28/2014 5:59 AM, Fæ wrote: On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov l...@wikimedia.org wrote: ... independent individual able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF employees. I do not really understand the point being made about not engaging with WMF employees, any active volunteer on Wikimedia projects should and must be free to engage with WMF employees. The statement does not appear to match actions over the last 24 hours, with Wil freely making public comments about his dissatisfaction after conversations (emails?) with some WMF employees. I believe the point is that Wil, in particular, will not interfere with Wikimedia staff in carrying out their duties, assign them specific tasks, or otherwise attempt to supervise and direct their work. These functions properly belong to the employee's supervisor, so it's good for community members to keep this in mind generally, but especially important for Wil because otherwise his connection to Lila might create concern or confusion for the staff (as in the recent GitHub situation, which I believe was already mentioned). If those guidelines are respected, there should be no problem about Wil interacting with staff in an ordinary fashion. I'm sure Wil understands this and will be careful about it, and it's also good that Lila has said this publicly so that people have something to point to, in case anything is uncertain about whether Wil has some sort of special authority. --Michael Snow ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Welcome Rachel diCerbo, Director of Community Engagement
Welcome Rachel! On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 7:41 AM, Birgit Müller birgit.muel...@wikimedia.dewrote: Welcome, Rachel. Congratulations on your new job! Birgit 2014-05-28 2:26 GMT+02:00 Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org: Hi folks, It’s my great pleasure to tell you that Rachel diCerbo is joining us as Director of Community Engagement (Product), starting today. In this role, Rachel will manage the community liaison team (Keegan Peterzell, Sherry Snyder, Nick Wilson, and Erica Litrenta) and ensure that our technical projects receive community engagement support throughout their development. Rachel discovered her love for collaborative communities with Couchsurfing. When she joined the community in 2005, Couchsurfing was a small non-profit, with essential functions being filled by volunteers. This included responding to safety issues: staying at someone else’s home or hosting a stranger carries risks, some obvious, some less so. Rachel founded and led the community’s all-volunteer safety team. She was also a member of the non-profit’s Board of Directors from 2007-2011. After volunteering for two years, she joined the organization full-time as Head of Trust Safety in 2008. She was responsible for enacting policies related to incident reporting, profile removal, and other safety issues, and handled any high level legal issues and communications related to Couchsurfing member safety. She implemented training, documentation, and case review processes for her team. As part of her role, she also directly interfaced with Couchsurfing’s engineering team and helped scope functionality related to safety moderation. The work on the safety team also equipped her well for working across culture and languages, as issues would often arise around differing cultural sensitivities. She’s travelled to 38 countries and lived on 5 continents. Prior to Couchsurfing, Rachel pursued a passion for theater while temping in various roles for various companies. Her additional interests include digital rights, women’s rights and safety worldwide, and scuba diving. In her spare time, she seeks to perfect her pulled pork recipe, sews, and reads all the things. Rachel is new to the community, and due to the nature of her role, she’ll be spending some time just learning how to edit and how things work in our weird wonderful world. She’s planning a face-to-face meeting with her team the week of June 9th and will be attending WikiConference USA later this week. Please join me in welcoming Rachel to the Wikimedia Foundation and to the community. Warmly, Erik PS: Big thanks to everyone who’s been part of the search process, to the liaison team for doing awesome work in an emerging structure, and to Philippe, Maggie and Howie for all their work in bootstrapping the team, and for supporting Rachel as she steps into the role. :-) -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Please note: all replies sent to this mailing list will be immediately directed to Wikimedia-l, the public mailing list of the Wikimedia community. For more information about Wikimedia-l: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l ___ WikimediaAnnounce-l mailing list wikimediaannounc...@lists.wikimedia.org https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediaannounce-l ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Birgit Müller Team Communitys Community Liaison Volunteer Support Department E-Mail: birgit.muel...@wikimedia.de Wikimedia Deutschland e.V. | Tempelhofer Ufer 23-24 | 10963 Berlin Tel. (030) 219 158 26-0 http://wikimedia.de Stellen Sie sich eine Welt vor, in der jeder Mensch an der Menge allen Wissens frei teilhaben kann. Helfen Sie uns dabei! http://spenden.wikimedia.de/ Wikimedia Deutschland - Gesellschaft zur Förderung Freien Wissens e.V. Eingetragen im Vereinsregister des Amtsgerichts Berlin-Charlottenburg unter der Nummer 23855 B. Als gemeinnützig anerkannt durch das Finanzamt für Körperschaften I Berlin, Steuernummer 27/681/51985. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
On 28 May 2014 16:55, Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.com wrote: On 5/28/2014 5:59 AM, Fæ wrote: ... I do not really understand the point being made about not engaging ... I believe the point is that Wil, in particular, will not interfere with Wikimedia staff in carrying out their duties, assign them specific tasks, or otherwise attempt to supervise and direct their work. These functions properly belong to the employee's supervisor, so it's good for community members to keep this in mind generally, but especially important for Wil because otherwise his connection to Lila might create concern or confusion for the staff (as in the recent GitHub situation, which I believe was already mentioned). If those guidelines are respected, there should be no problem about Wil interacting with staff in an ordinary fashion. I'm sure Wil understands this and will be careful about it, and it's also good that Lila has said this publicly so that people have something to point to, in case anything is uncertain about whether Wil has some sort of special authority. Thanks, that is a nice interpretation, it would be useful to have a confirmation that this was the intention of Lila's email. It will be interesting to see whether in practice Wil has special authority, or not. It is quite hard to judge right now, having made so few contributions to Wikimedia projects, and as in the majority of discussions in various places (including Wil's English Wikipedia user page) his preferred form of first introduction is as Lila Tretikov's significant other, which colours everyone's perception of how he should be treated. Thanks, Fae -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Thanks Michael for spelling this out further. Your understanding is correct. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 7:55 AM, Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.comwrote: On 5/28/2014 5:59 AM, Fæ wrote: On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov l...@wikimedia.org wrote: ... independent individual able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF employees. I do not really understand the point being made about not engaging with WMF employees, any active volunteer on Wikimedia projects should and must be free to engage with WMF employees. The statement does not appear to match actions over the last 24 hours, with Wil freely making public comments about his dissatisfaction after conversations (emails?) with some WMF employees. I believe the point is that Wil, in particular, will not interfere with Wikimedia staff in carrying out their duties, assign them specific tasks, or otherwise attempt to supervise and direct their work. These functions properly belong to the employee's supervisor, so it's good for community members to keep this in mind generally, but especially important for Wil because otherwise his connection to Lila might create concern or confusion for the staff (as in the recent GitHub situation, which I believe was already mentioned). If those guidelines are respected, there should be no problem about Wil interacting with staff in an ordinary fashion. I'm sure Wil understands this and will be careful about it, and it's also good that Lila has said this publicly so that people have something to point to, in case anything is uncertain about whether Wil has some sort of special authority. --Michael Snow ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Hi Fae, if you're referring to the discussion on this page, then I think I make it quite clear why I won't engage with WMF employees going forward: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680start=150. To be sure, I'm not used to having anyone from Lila's team immediately emailing her through their official company addresses as soon as I ask a question in a public forum. In this case, the WMF has made it quite clear that the IRC channels aren't official and/or sponsored by the WMF, and I was asking about community affairs WRT to those channels. So my question about why a user was kicked from the channel didn't have anything to do with the WMF. I still don't understand why this employee felt it was necessary to bring Lila's attention to safety concerns through official WMF employee channels, although I'm sure he or she felt it was the right thing to do and I've given them the benefit of the doubt that it was. Of course, I can't form my own independent opinion, since a WMF employee revdeleted the rev in question in the ~10 minutes between when it was first posted and when I tried clicking on the link. In any case, it should be made clear that the WMF did not ask me to disengage with employees and has not yet asked me to stop posting to Wikipediocracy directly. So far, the organization itself has respected my individuality; I can only appeal to everyone in the WP community and all WMF employees to do the same in the future. I will be engaging with the broader WP community in whatever way I can, but I've made the hard decision to limit my engagement with WMF employees to public, logged forums from now on. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:59 AM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov l...@wikimedia.org wrote: ... independent individual able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF employees. Thanks for making these distinctions. It is sad to see that your time and energy is being used so early on in your introduction to the Wikimedia community, in creating a political distance between yourself and the public actions of your life partner, due to his casual curiosity about Wikimedia projects. A curiosity that only manifested itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the Foundation board. I do not really understand the point being made about not engaging with WMF employees, any active volunteer on Wikimedia projects should and must be free to engage with WMF employees. The statement does not appear to match actions over the last 24 hours, with Wil freely making public comments about his dissatisfaction after conversations (emails?) with some WMF employees. Thanks again for clarifying your position during this difficult start to your engagement. Fae -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
A slight correction: the revision was rev-deleted by a member of the community - a member of ArbCom, in fact - and not an employee of the Foundation. Snt frm m Phn On May 28, 2014, at 9:23 AM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Hi Fae, if you're referring to the discussion on this page, then I think I make it quite clear why I won't engage with WMF employees going forward: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680start=150. To be sure, I'm not used to having anyone from Lila's team immediately emailing her through their official company addresses as soon as I ask a question in a public forum. In this case, the WMF has made it quite clear that the IRC channels aren't official and/or sponsored by the WMF, and I was asking about community affairs WRT to those channels. So my question about why a user was kicked from the channel didn't have anything to do with the WMF. I still don't understand why this employee felt it was necessary to bring Lila's attention to safety concerns through official WMF employee channels, although I'm sure he or she felt it was the right thing to do and I've given them the benefit of the doubt that it was. Of course, I can't form my own independent opinion, since a WMF employee revdeleted the rev in question in the ~10 minutes between when it was first posted and when I tried clicking on the link. In any case, it should be made clear that the WMF did not ask me to disengage with employees and has not yet asked me to stop posting to Wikipediocracy directly. So far, the organization itself has respected my individuality; I can only appeal to everyone in the WP community and all WMF employees to do the same in the future. I will be engaging with the broader WP community in whatever way I can, but I've made the hard decision to limit my engagement with WMF employees to public, logged forums from now on. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:59 AM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov l...@wikimedia.org wrote: ... independent individual able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF employees. Thanks for making these distinctions. It is sad to see that your time and energy is being used so early on in your introduction to the Wikimedia community, in creating a political distance between yourself and the public actions of your life partner, due to his casual curiosity about Wikimedia projects. A curiosity that only manifested itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the Foundation board. I do not really understand the point being made about not engaging with WMF employees, any active volunteer on Wikimedia projects should and must be free to engage with WMF employees. The statement does not appear to match actions over the last 24 hours, with Wil freely making public comments about his dissatisfaction after conversations (emails?) with some WMF employees. Thanks again for clarifying your position during this difficult start to your engagement. Fae -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 8:55 AM, Michael Snow wikipe...@frontier.com wrote: If those guidelines are respected, there should be no problem about Wil interacting with staff in an ordinary fashion. I'm sure Wil understands this and will be careful about it, and it's also good that Lila has said this publicly so that people have something to point to, in case anything is uncertain about whether Wil has some sort of special authority. Yes - agreed. Let's judge Lila by her actions and Wil by his. To the extent that her association with a quirky, curious, hyperactive guy who enjoys poking things says anything about her, it's that she'll fit right in :) Erik -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:23 AM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: To be sure, I'm not used to having anyone from Lila's team immediately emailing her through their official company addresses as soon as I ask a question in a public forum. In this case, the WMF has made it quite clear that the IRC channels aren't official and/or sponsored by the WMF, and I was asking about community affairs WRT to those channels. So my question about why a user was kicked from the channel didn't have anything to do with the WMF. I still don't understand why this employee felt it was necessary to bring Lila's attention to safety concerns through official WMF employee channels, although I'm sure he or she felt it was the right thing to do and I've given them the benefit of the doubt that it was. Of course, I can't form my own independent opinion, since a WMF employee revdeleted the rev in question in the ~10 minutes between when it was first posted and when I tried clicking on the link. If you're talking about the message left on Oliver's talk page, it was a threat by a banned user which included reference to a dream about him where knees were nailed to the floor from the back and other such lovely details. That's precisely what moderation features on any site are for, and to the extent that it included implications of violence, yes, bringing safety concerns to the attention of senior staff at WMF is appropriate. Cheers, Erik -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Wil, the deletion log of the page in question is publicly visible. There are no WMF employees who have deleted anything on that page, ever. This is information you can check for yourself instead of relying on the words of others. Risker On 28 May 2014 12:23, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Hi Fae, if you're referring to the discussion on this page, then I think I make it quite clear why I won't engage with WMF employees going forward: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680start=150. To be sure, I'm not used to having anyone from Lila's team immediately emailing her through their official company addresses as soon as I ask a question in a public forum. In this case, the WMF has made it quite clear that the IRC channels aren't official and/or sponsored by the WMF, and I was asking about community affairs WRT to those channels. So my question about why a user was kicked from the channel didn't have anything to do with the WMF. I still don't understand why this employee felt it was necessary to bring Lila's attention to safety concerns through official WMF employee channels, although I'm sure he or she felt it was the right thing to do and I've given them the benefit of the doubt that it was. Of course, I can't form my own independent opinion, since a WMF employee revdeleted the rev in question in the ~10 minutes between when it was first posted and when I tried clicking on the link. In any case, it should be made clear that the WMF did not ask me to disengage with employees and has not yet asked me to stop posting to Wikipediocracy directly. So far, the organization itself has respected my individuality; I can only appeal to everyone in the WP community and all WMF employees to do the same in the future. I will be engaging with the broader WP community in whatever way I can, but I've made the hard decision to limit my engagement with WMF employees to public, logged forums from now on. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:59 AM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov l...@wikimedia.org wrote: ... independent individual able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF employees. Thanks for making these distinctions. It is sad to see that your time and energy is being used so early on in your introduction to the Wikimedia community, in creating a political distance between yourself and the public actions of your life partner, due to his casual curiosity about Wikimedia projects. A curiosity that only manifested itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the Foundation board. I do not really understand the point being made about not engaging with WMF employees, any active volunteer on Wikimedia projects should and must be free to engage with WMF employees. The statement does not appear to match actions over the last 24 hours, with Wil freely making public comments about his dissatisfaction after conversations (emails?) with some WMF employees. Thanks again for clarifying your position during this difficult start to your engagement. Fae -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/guidelineswikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:43 AM, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: If you're talking about the message left on Oliver's talk page, it was a threat by a banned user which included reference to a dream about him where knees were nailed to the floor from the back and other such lovely details. That's precisely what moderation features on any site are for, and to the extent that it included implications of violence, yes, bringing safety concerns to the attention of senior staff at WMF is appropriate. Cheers, Erik Again, this is not my concern. It is my prerogative whether to talk to WMF employees privately, however, and I choose not to. My apologies that we won't be able to carry on with our own private conversation, Erik. ,Wil ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. I posted the following to Wikipediocracy a few minutes ago: I may have misread which page the rev was on, or I misunderstood the person who said s/he revdeleted it in thinking that it had been revdeleted in the previous few minutes. This is exactly why I prefer public recorded forums. Now no one can go back to clear up the confusion. For all I know, I might have to apologize for a misunderstanding, and it would really suck if I somehow misrepresented things and didn't have any opportunity to straighten things out. Of course, it is entirely on me. I knew that the IRC channels weren't logged, and that it was a bannable offense to log them (for those who aren't familiar with IRC, this essentially means that you aren't supposed to save conversations there; in most channels that's A-OK, but on all of the most used wikipedia channels it seems to be disallowed). Next time I have a concern, I will take it to wikimedia-l or one of the other mailing lists. As this example also shows, one can't be sure that the revs on a page within Wikimedia's wikis themselves won't be redacted after-the-fact. I'm not expressing an opinion about whether stuff should be redacted or on what grounds, but I am asserting that it is possible to do so. There is a discussion about this issue there, as well. It can be followed at the link I posted earlier. Here's the last page of the discussion that includes the comment above: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680p=96600#p96600 ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: Wil, the deletion log of the page in question is publicly visible. There are no WMF employees who have deleted anything on that page, ever. This is information you can check for yourself instead of relying on the words of others. Risker On 28 May 2014 12:23, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Hi Fae, if you're referring to the discussion on this page, then I think I make it quite clear why I won't engage with WMF employees going forward: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680start=150. To be sure, I'm not used to having anyone from Lila's team immediately emailing her through their official company addresses as soon as I ask a question in a public forum. In this case, the WMF has made it quite clear that the IRC channels aren't official and/or sponsored by the WMF, and I was asking about community affairs WRT to those channels. So my question about why a user was kicked from the channel didn't have anything to do with the WMF. I still don't understand why this employee felt it was necessary to bring Lila's attention to safety concerns through official WMF employee channels, although I'm sure he or she felt it was the right thing to do and I've given them the benefit of the doubt that it was. Of course, I can't form my own independent opinion, since a WMF employee revdeleted the rev in question in the ~10 minutes between when it was first posted and when I tried clicking on the link. In any case, it should be made clear that the WMF did not ask me to disengage with employees and has not yet asked me to stop posting to Wikipediocracy directly. So far, the organization itself has respected my individuality; I can only appeal to everyone in the WP community and all WMF employees to do the same in the future. I will be engaging with the broader WP community in whatever way I can, but I've made the hard decision to limit my engagement with WMF employees to public, logged forums from now on. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:59 AM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov l...@wikimedia.org wrote: ... independent individual able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF employees. Thanks for making these distinctions. It is sad to see that your time and energy is being used so early on in your introduction to the Wikimedia community, in creating a political distance between yourself and the public actions of your life partner, due to his casual curiosity about Wikimedia projects. A curiosity that only manifested itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the Foundation board. I do not really understand the point being made about not engaging with WMF employees, any active volunteer on Wikimedia projects should and must be free to engage with WMF employees. The statement does not appear to match actions over the last 24 hours, with Wil freely making public comments about his dissatisfaction after conversations (emails?) with some WMF employees. Thanks again for clarifying your position during this difficult start to your engagement. Fae -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Welcome Rachel diCerbo, Director of Community Engagement
Welcome Rachel! Erik (or someone else), is there a succinct description of the mission of the Community Engagement and Community Advocacy departments, and/or especially a summary of the difference between their roles? Your e-mail from December included some of this information, I'm just curious if it has been codified in a way that would allow an outsider to quickly grok the split. Thanks! ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
On May 28, 2014 7:09 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. I posted the following to Wikipediocracy a few minutes ago: I may have misread which page the rev was on, or I misunderstood the person who said s/he revdeleted it in thinking that it had been revdeleted in the previous few minutes. This is exactly why I prefer public recorded forums. Now no one can go back to clear up the confusion. For all I know, I might have to apologize for a misunderstanding, and it would really suck if I somehow misrepresented things and didn't have any opportunity to straighten things out. Of course, it is entirely on me. I knew that the IRC channels weren't logged, and that it was a bannable offense to log them (for those who aren't familiar with IRC, this essentially means that you aren't supposed to save conversations there; in most channels that's A-OK, but on all of the most used wikipedia channels it seems to be disallowed). I think you may have misunderstood. Public logging is not allowed, but it's fine to keep logs for yourself. I wouldn't mind public logging myself, by the way. Next time I have a concern, I will take it to wikimedia-l or one of the other mailing lists. As this example also shows, one can't be sure that the revs on a page within Wikimedia's wikis themselves won't be redacted after-the-fact. I'm not expressing an opinion about whether stuff should be redacted or on what grounds, but I am asserting that it is possible to do so. Your observation is correct. It is possible to delete revisions from history. This will be logged. I'm a little surprised you seem surprised by this. Am I misunderstanding what you mean? There is a discussion about this issue there, as well. It can be followed at the link I posted earlier. Here's the last page of the discussion that includes the comment above: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680p=96600#p96600 ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: Wil, the deletion log of the page in question is publicly visible. There are no WMF employees who have deleted anything on that page, ever. This is information you can check for yourself instead of relying on the words of others. Risker On 28 May 2014 12:23, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Hi Fae, if you're referring to the discussion on this page, then I think I make it quite clear why I won't engage with WMF employees going forward: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680start=150. To be sure, I'm not used to having anyone from Lila's team immediately emailing her through their official company addresses as soon as I ask a question in a public forum. In this case, the WMF has made it quite clear that the IRC channels aren't official and/or sponsored by the WMF, and I was asking about community affairs WRT to those channels. So my question about why a user was kicked from the channel didn't have anything to do with the WMF. I still don't understand why this employee felt it was necessary to bring Lila's attention to safety concerns through official WMF employee channels, although I'm sure he or she felt it was the right thing to do and I've given them the benefit of the doubt that it was. Of course, I can't form my own independent opinion, since a WMF employee revdeleted the rev in question in the ~10 minutes between when it was first posted and when I tried clicking on the link. In any case, it should be made clear that the WMF did not ask me to disengage with employees and has not yet asked me to stop posting to Wikipediocracy directly. So far, the organization itself has respected my individuality; I can only appeal to everyone in the WP community and all WMF employees to do the same in the future. I will be engaging with the broader WP community in whatever way I can, but I've made the hard decision to limit my engagement with WMF employees to public, logged forums from now on. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:59 AM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov l...@wikimedia.org wrote: ... independent individual able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF employees. Thanks for making these distinctions. It is sad to see that your time and energy is being used so early on in your introduction to the Wikimedia community, in creating a political distance between yourself and the public actions of your life partner, due to his casual curiosity about Wikimedia projects. A curiosity that only manifested itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the Foundation board. I do not really understand the point being made about not
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 1:07 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. I posted the following to Wikipediocracy a few minutes ago: I may have misread which page the rev was on, or I misunderstood the person who said s/he revdeleted it in thinking that it had been revdeleted in the previous few minutes. This is exactly why I prefer public recorded forums. Now no one can go back to clear up the confusion. For all I know, I might have to apologize for a misunderstanding, and it would really suck if I somehow misrepresented things and didn't have any opportunity to straighten things out. Of course, it is entirely on me. I knew that the IRC channels weren't logged, and that it was a bannable offense to log them (for those who aren't familiar with IRC, this essentially means that you aren't supposed to save conversations there; in most channels that's A-OK, but on all of the most used wikipedia channels it seems to be disallowed). Next time I have a concern, I will take it to wikimedia-l or one of the other mailing lists. As this example also shows, one can't be sure that the revs on a page within Wikimedia's wikis themselves won't be redacted after-the-fact. I'm not expressing an opinion about whether stuff should be redacted or on what grounds, but I am asserting that it is possible to do so. There is a discussion about this issue there, as well. It can be followed at the link I posted earlier. Here's the last page of the discussion that includes the comment above: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680p=96600#p96600 ,Wil Hi Wil, This is exactly why others have suggested that you slow down, and focus on learning the basics of the Wikimedia projects and movements before jumping into the hottest, most controversial issues. It takes time to develop the understanding necessary to draw conclusions, especially in areas most likely to erupt into drama and heated exchanges. To wit, I don't believe it can even be determined if someone is logging a channel, and many people (including Wikimedians) log all of their channels. Several Wikimedia-related channels are publicly logged. Other channels prohibit people from publishing logs. It's also quite common knowledge that revisions can be deleted (by any administrator, where they remain viewable by administrators) or suppressed altogether (by users with Oversight rights). I think if you considered it with a full possession of the facts, you would agree that this is good and necessary. In any case, thank you Lila for your note! I appreciate that you have made it clear you've seen the threads of the last few weeks and understand the concerns that posters have described. ~Nathan ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Wikimedia UK report April 2014
Hello everyone, Please see below for the Wikimedia UK monthly report for April 2014. If you prefer, the report can be read on wiki herehttps://wikimedia.org.uk/wiki/Reports/2014/April . Thanks and regards, Stevie Reports/2014/April Below is the Wikimedia UK monthly reporthttps://wikimedia.org.uk/wiki/Reports for the period 1st to 30th April 2014. If you want to keep up with the chapter's activities as they happen, please subscribe to our bloghttp://blog.wikimedia.org.uk/ , join a UK mailing listhttps://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimediauk-l, and/or follow us on Twitter http://twitter.com/wikimediauk. If you have any questions or comments, please drop us a line on this report's talk pagehttps://wikimedia.org.uk/w/index.php?title=Talk:Reports/2014/Aprilaction=editredlink=1 . Program activitiesGLAM activitiesEditathonsLive Art The Editathon focussed on Women artists, and was at LADA so the editors had access to their archives. Discussions have already started re a follow up event.Wikimedia UK and the Live Art Development Agency (LADA) ran a very successful editathon on Feminism and Live Art at the LADA offices. Tank Museum photography Wikimedia UK is running a tripod friendly photography event at the Tank Museum in Dorset, the museum has given us some free tickets for Wikimedia photographers and various participants online are assembling a wish listhttps://wikimedia.org.uk/wiki/Tank_Museum_2014. As we go to press there are still some tickets available for interested photographers. Battle of Clontarf *Wikimedia UK gave logistical support to some Wikimedians in Ireland in order to support their first editathon.* The Battle of Clontarf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Clontarf. A thousand years on, was this defining moment in Irish history the occasion when Brian Boru https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Boru himself drove the Vikings out of Ireland much as Saint Patrick had driven the snakes out a few hundred years earlier; Or was it a Game of Throneshttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_of_Thrones style slaughter with two alliances of Irish and Vikings killing each other in sight of the walls of Dublin, leaving Dublin an independent Viking city state for a generation after? The First Wikipedia Edit-a-thon in the Republic of Irelandhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Ireland/Battle_of_Clontarf_Editathon_April_2014, held in partnership with 1014 Retold http://1014retold.com/, brought historians, Wikipedians and others together to improve the articles on Gormlaith https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gormlaith, her various husbands and other interested parties. The battle of Clontarf edit-a-thon took place in the Science Gallery in Trinity College, Dublin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_College,_Dublin on Easter Saturday and was written up by 1014 retoldhttp://1014retold.com/wikipedia-editathon/. Coverage has been on Silicon Republichttp://www.siliconrepublic.com/new-media/item/36543-wiki-editors-tweeters-call and Buzzfeed in their article *the real Game of Thrones*.http://www.buzzfeed.com/lukebailey/this-live-tweeted-medieval-irish-war-is-the-real-game-of-thr WIR Review Daria Cybulska is leading a review of the Wikimedian in Residence programhttps://wikimedia.org.uk/wiki/Brainstorm_meeting_to_review_the_WIR_programme, anyone wishing to give feedback is welcome to contact her. Future Events The program for Wikimania is firming up as the Program committee decides which of 64 GLAM submissionshttps://wikimania2014.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:GLAM_%26_Free_Culture_submissions to include in the GLAM track. Potential attendees of Wikimania and others are welcome to join in the assessment process by signing up for the talks they would like to attend and querying on the talkpages those that need discussion. The Fringe is also expanding with several GLAM events for those staying on after Wikimania. Later events include an editathon at the Institute of Classics in September and *WW1 and Dissent* in November Education and expert outreach On 3 April WMUK supported a volunteer-led Editathon at University of St Mark and St John in Plymouthhttps://wikimedia.org.uk/wiki/Marjon_editathon, organised by Harry Mitchell, along with Doug Taylor and Chris McKenna who provided training for the attendees. This was the most recent event in a string of education outreach activities during the first quarter of 2014. WMUK staff members Richard Nevell and Dr Toni Sant are in the process of collating basic information (mainly usernames and contact details, where appropriate) from all participants at these events to ensure appropriate follow-up and engagement through future Education-related activities. Wikimedia Ambassador at Jisc Dr Martin Poulter engagement as Wikimedia Ambassador with Jisc has come to an endhttp://digitisation.jiscinvolve.org/wp/2014/04/09/the-last-days-of-jiscs-wikimedian-ambassador/. Details about his work during the period July 2013 to April 2014 are available
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Wil, if you want to use email lists for your discussions, you may find a better reception if you use one of the project- or task-specific lists. There is a page on English Wikipedia with links to mailing lists that most closely relate to that project[1] and a more extensive list at Meta that describes lists for many other projects and specific areas of interest.[2] One is more likely to get a positive response when the audience is more accurately targeted. You will probably find that a lot of practical questions you have asked could easily be answered at the English Wikipedia Teahouse page, where you have been invited. That would include questions about how to tell if something has been deleted from a page, how to read page histories, or even how to tell whether or not someone is WMF staff. Risker [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mailing_lists [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Overview On 28 May 2014 13:07, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. I posted the following to Wikipediocracy a few minutes ago: I may have misread which page the rev was on, or I misunderstood the person who said s/he revdeleted it in thinking that it had been revdeleted in the previous few minutes. This is exactly why I prefer public recorded forums. Now no one can go back to clear up the confusion. For all I know, I might have to apologize for a misunderstanding, and it would really suck if I somehow misrepresented things and didn't have any opportunity to straighten things out. Of course, it is entirely on me. I knew that the IRC channels weren't logged, and that it was a bannable offense to log them (for those who aren't familiar with IRC, this essentially means that you aren't supposed to save conversations there; in most channels that's A-OK, but on all of the most used wikipedia channels it seems to be disallowed). Next time I have a concern, I will take it to wikimedia-l or one of the other mailing lists. As this example also shows, one can't be sure that the revs on a page within Wikimedia's wikis themselves won't be redacted after-the-fact. I'm not expressing an opinion about whether stuff should be redacted or on what grounds, but I am asserting that it is possible to do so. There is a discussion about this issue there, as well. It can be followed at the link I posted earlier. Here's the last page of the discussion that includes the comment above: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680p=96600#p96600 ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: Wil, the deletion log of the page in question is publicly visible. There are no WMF employees who have deleted anything on that page, ever. This is information you can check for yourself instead of relying on the words of others. Risker On 28 May 2014 12:23, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Hi Fae, if you're referring to the discussion on this page, then I think I make it quite clear why I won't engage with WMF employees going forward: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680start=150. To be sure, I'm not used to having anyone from Lila's team immediately emailing her through their official company addresses as soon as I ask a question in a public forum. In this case, the WMF has made it quite clear that the IRC channels aren't official and/or sponsored by the WMF, and I was asking about community affairs WRT to those channels. So my question about why a user was kicked from the channel didn't have anything to do with the WMF. I still don't understand why this employee felt it was necessary to bring Lila's attention to safety concerns through official WMF employee channels, although I'm sure he or she felt it was the right thing to do and I've given them the benefit of the doubt that it was. Of course, I can't form my own independent opinion, since a WMF employee revdeleted the rev in question in the ~10 minutes between when it was first posted and when I tried clicking on the link. In any case, it should be made clear that the WMF did not ask me to disengage with employees and has not yet asked me to stop posting to Wikipediocracy directly. So far, the organization itself has respected my individuality; I can only appeal to everyone in the WP community and all WMF employees to do the same in the future. I will be engaging with the broader WP community in whatever way I can, but I've made the hard decision to limit my engagement with WMF employees to public, logged forums from now on. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:59 AM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov l...@wikimedia.org wrote: ... independent individual able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not take direction from me.
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Welcome Rachel diCerbo, Director of Community Engagement
Hi Nathan, Succinctly, at a 30,000 foot level: The Community Engagement team (staffed with Community Liaisons and the Director of Community Engagement, Product) leads the efforts to engage the community around the development and deployment of new tools and product/features for the projects. The Community Advocacy team (staffed with Community Advocates and the Director, Community Advocacy) leads engagement with the community around strategic change management and major policy rollouts (Terms of Use, Privacy Policy) and serves as an entry point for things related to governance functions (Arbcoms, Checkusers and Oversighters, etc). The descriptions of the work of each team can be found in more depth in the appendix to WMF's FDC submission. [1]. Best, pb [1] - https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/Wikimedia_Foundation/Proposal_form/Ongoing_work_areas#Legal_and_Community_Advocacy *Philippe Beaudette * \\ Director, Community Advocacy \\ Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. T: 1-415-839-6885 x6643 | phili...@wikimedia.org | : @Philippewikihttps://twitter.com/Philippewiki On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: Welcome Rachel! Erik (or someone else), is there a succinct description of the mission of the Community Engagement and Community Advocacy departments, and/or especially a summary of the difference between their roles? Your e-mail from December included some of this information, I'm just curious if it has been codified in a way that would allow an outsider to quickly grok the split. Thanks! ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Welcome Rachel diCerbo, Director of Community Engagement
Perfect. Thanks as always Philippe for being awesome. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Welcome Rachel diCerbo, Director of Community Engagement
Philippe Beaudette, 28/05/2014 19:27: The descriptions of the work of each team can be found in more depth in the appendix to WMF's FDC submission. [1]. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/Wikimedia_Foundation/Proposal_form/Ongoing_work_areas#Legal_and_Community_Advocacy «We support the rollouts of major Foundation initiatives - such as software changes or site policy updates [...] among them the VisualEditor beta launch» https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/Proposals/2013-2014_round2/Wikimedia_Foundation/Proposal_form/Ongoing_work_areas#Community_Advocacy Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikimedia Announcements] Welcome Rachel diCerbo, Director of Community Engagement
Right, we did that last year. It occurred to me after I sent that that it wasn't up to date on that section, but you're quite correct. That work has now transitioned to the CE team :) pb *Philippe Beaudette * \\ Director, Community Advocacy \\ Wikimedia Foundation, Inc. T: 1-415-839-6885 x6643 | phili...@wikimedia.org | : @Philippewikihttps://twitter.com/Philippewiki On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:55 AM, Federico Leva (Nemo) nemow...@gmail.comwrote: Philippe Beaudette, 28/05/2014 19:27: The descriptions of the work of each team can be found in more depth in the appendix to WMF's FDC submission. [1]. https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/Proposals/ 2013-2014_round2/Wikimedia_Foundation/Proposal_form/ Ongoing_work_areas#Legal_and_Community_Advocacy «We support the rollouts of major Foundation initiatives - such as software changes or site policy updates [...] among them the VisualEditor beta launch» https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:APG/Proposals/ 2013-2014_round2/Wikimedia_Foundation/Proposal_form/ Ongoing_work_areas#Community_Advocacy Nemo ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/ wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] About Wikipedia medical entries
2014-05-28 7:42 GMT+02:00 Nurunnaby Chowdhury n...@nhasive.com: Thanks everyone. Last day when this news published i receive lots of phone call from our journalist friend. You know all journalist just check the news media. Not check details issue. This news found is way also on Italian media: http://www.corriere.it/salute/14_maggio_27/occhio-wikipedia-nove-voci-mediche-dieci-sono-sbagliate-02d46f6a-e5b1-11e3-8e3e-8f5de4ddd12f.shtml The good thing is that the articles mentions that the author of the original study invited physicians to participate in Wikipedia to raise the quality of its articles. Cristian ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] About Wikipedia medical entries
What I think is funny about this whole article and this email thread is that the quality of Wikipedia is not brought into relation with anything else. For example, I know that one of the main causes of death in the Netherlands today has to do with improper dosages of medicine, caused both by failure to follow instructions in the medical information accompanying pharmaceuticals and by mistakes in that medical information. Wikipedia may be full of mistakes, but so is the official medical information offered to doctors and patients. 2014-05-28 20:03 GMT+02:00, Cristian Consonni kikkocrist...@gmail.com: 2014-05-28 7:42 GMT+02:00 Nurunnaby Chowdhury n...@nhasive.com: Thanks everyone. Last day when this news published i receive lots of phone call from our journalist friend. You know all journalist just check the news media. Not check details issue. This news found is way also on Italian media: http://www.corriere.it/salute/14_maggio_27/occhio-wikipedia-nove-voci-mediche-dieci-sono-sbagliate-02d46f6a-e5b1-11e3-8e3e-8f5de4ddd12f.shtml The good thing is that the articles mentions that the author of the original study invited physicians to participate in Wikipedia to raise the quality of its articles. Cristian ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] About Wikipedia medical entries
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 8:18 PM, Jane Darnell jane...@gmail.com wrote: What I think is funny about this whole article and this email thread is that the quality of Wikipedia is not brought into relation with anything else. For example, I know that one of the main causes of death in the Netherlands today has to do with improper dosages of medicine, caused both by failure to follow instructions in the medical information accompanying pharmaceuticals and by mistakes in that medical information. Wikipedia may be full of mistakes, but so is the official medical information offered to doctors and patients. Let's not focus on what others are doing wrong, but improve on what we may be doing wrong - that's the only thing we have most influence on in changing. --Martijn ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Yes, that was mentioned on the Wikipediocracy thread, as well. I apologize to that person and the WMF for my misunderstanding. Other than establishing the fact that I wrongly stated that this person is a WMF employee, the revdelete doesn't seem to warrant more investigation according to existing policy. As I mentioned before, I assume this revdelete was justified by published policy, so it doesn't matter who made it beyond correcting my mistake. I would like to protect that person's ability to act in good faith going forward. The IRC conversation could warrant more discussion based on whether there is interest. I've said all I wanted to say on the matter (that I will not be engaging in private conversations with WMF employees for the time being), but I'd be happy to answer any questions that others might have. Again, I'm sorry for my mistake, and thanks for pointing it out. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:45 AM, Brandon Harris bhar...@wikimedia.org wrote: A slight correction: the revision was rev-deleted by a member of the community - a member of ArbCom, in fact - and not an employee of the Foundation. Snt frm m Phn On May 28, 2014, at 9:23 AM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Hi Fae, if you're referring to the discussion on this page, then I think I make it quite clear why I won't engage with WMF employees going forward: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680start=150. To be sure, I'm not used to having anyone from Lila's team immediately emailing her through their official company addresses as soon as I ask a question in a public forum. In this case, the WMF has made it quite clear that the IRC channels aren't official and/or sponsored by the WMF, and I was asking about community affairs WRT to those channels. So my question about why a user was kicked from the channel didn't have anything to do with the WMF. I still don't understand why this employee felt it was necessary to bring Lila's attention to safety concerns through official WMF employee channels, although I'm sure he or she felt it was the right thing to do and I've given them the benefit of the doubt that it was. Of course, I can't form my own independent opinion, since a WMF employee revdeleted the rev in question in the ~10 minutes between when it was first posted and when I tried clicking on the link. In any case, it should be made clear that the WMF did not ask me to disengage with employees and has not yet asked me to stop posting to Wikipediocracy directly. So far, the organization itself has respected my individuality; I can only appeal to everyone in the WP community and all WMF employees to do the same in the future. I will be engaging with the broader WP community in whatever way I can, but I've made the hard decision to limit my engagement with WMF employees to public, logged forums from now on. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:59 AM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: On 28/05/2014, Lila Tretikov l...@wikimedia.org wrote: ... independent individual able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF employees. Thanks for making these distinctions. It is sad to see that your time and energy is being used so early on in your introduction to the Wikimedia community, in creating a political distance between yourself and the public actions of your life partner, due to his casual curiosity about Wikimedia projects. A curiosity that only manifested itself shortly after the public announcement of your employment by the Foundation board. I do not really understand the point being made about not engaging with WMF employees, any active volunteer on Wikimedia projects should and must be free to engage with WMF employees. The statement does not appear to match actions over the last 24 hours, with Wil freely making public comments about his dissatisfaction after conversations (emails?) with some WMF employees. Thanks again for clarifying your position during this difficult start to your engagement. Fae -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
If people don't want me to discuss this here, of course we can take it elsewhere. I only reply to this publicly to suggest that you and others help me out with that. For example, you have plenty of options beyond replying list-wide to communicate the very thing you're telling me below. As long as none of these concerns boil down to Just shut up, Wil, I'm all for optimizing communication. I think it's interesting, however, that no one seems to think that messages containing +1's to other people saying thanks aren't a waste of bandwidth or not entirely appropriate for this list. Thanks for the suggestion, in any case. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:26 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: Wil, if you want to use email lists for your discussions, you may find a better reception if you use one of the project- or task-specific lists. There is a page on English Wikipedia with links to mailing lists that most closely relate to that project[1] and a more extensive list at Meta that describes lists for many other projects and specific areas of interest.[2] One is more likely to get a positive response when the audience is more accurately targeted. You will probably find that a lot of practical questions you have asked could easily be answered at the English Wikipedia Teahouse page, where you have been invited. That would include questions about how to tell if something has been deleted from a page, how to read page histories, or even how to tell whether or not someone is WMF staff. Risker [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mailing_lists [2] https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Overview On 28 May 2014 13:07, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. I posted the following to Wikipediocracy a few minutes ago: I may have misread which page the rev was on, or I misunderstood the person who said s/he revdeleted it in thinking that it had been revdeleted in the previous few minutes. This is exactly why I prefer public recorded forums. Now no one can go back to clear up the confusion. For all I know, I might have to apologize for a misunderstanding, and it would really suck if I somehow misrepresented things and didn't have any opportunity to straighten things out. Of course, it is entirely on me. I knew that the IRC channels weren't logged, and that it was a bannable offense to log them (for those who aren't familiar with IRC, this essentially means that you aren't supposed to save conversations there; in most channels that's A-OK, but on all of the most used wikipedia channels it seems to be disallowed). Next time I have a concern, I will take it to wikimedia-l or one of the other mailing lists. As this example also shows, one can't be sure that the revs on a page within Wikimedia's wikis themselves won't be redacted after-the-fact. I'm not expressing an opinion about whether stuff should be redacted or on what grounds, but I am asserting that it is possible to do so. There is a discussion about this issue there, as well. It can be followed at the link I posted earlier. Here's the last page of the discussion that includes the comment above: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680p=96600#p96600 ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:57 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: Wil, the deletion log of the page in question is publicly visible. There are no WMF employees who have deleted anything on that page, ever. This is information you can check for yourself instead of relying on the words of others. Risker On 28 May 2014 12:23, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Hi Fae, if you're referring to the discussion on this page, then I think I make it quite clear why I won't engage with WMF employees going forward: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680start=150. To be sure, I'm not used to having anyone from Lila's team immediately emailing her through their official company addresses as soon as I ask a question in a public forum. In this case, the WMF has made it quite clear that the IRC channels aren't official and/or sponsored by the WMF, and I was asking about community affairs WRT to those channels. So my question about why a user was kicked from the channel didn't have anything to do with the WMF. I still don't understand why this employee felt it was necessary to bring Lila's attention to safety concerns through official WMF employee channels, although I'm sure he or she felt it was the right thing to do and I've given them the benefit of the doubt that it was. Of course, I can't form my own independent opinion, since a WMF employee revdeleted the rev in question in the ~10 minutes between when it was first posted and when I tried clicking on the link. In any case, it should be made clear that the WMF did not ask me to
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Nathan, I was responding to Lila's note to clarify that I had made the decision to not discuss anything privately with any WMF employee. The IRC discussion was referenced by Fae, so I sent a link to the discussion so everyone could see what he was talking about; I will absolutely stand by my words. I think it's very important for everyone to understand that the WMF is not trying to directly control my communication with the community and with WMF employees. These are all my decisions. Everyone who is encouraging me to stop posting on this thread seem to be the people who were asking for the clarification of my role in the first place. These people seemed to think this matter was urgent and that we shouldn't wait any longer- much less for me to understand the intricacies of those IRC channels- to get clarification. I was not the person to bring up the IRC discussion, but once it was brought up, I don't think many people would disagree that it was appropriate for me to respond with my account. We are all interested in hearing all sides of every story here, aren't we? I'm starting to get the feeling that there are things that some people on this list don't want *anyone* to discuss. After all, you could simply ignore my messages or even filter them from your inbox, if you are so inclined. This impression has been troubling me greatly. Do you know that this is *precisely* what many on Wikipediocracy are saying about this list? Are they right? ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 1:07 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. I posted the following to Wikipediocracy a few minutes ago: I may have misread which page the rev was on, or I misunderstood the person who said s/he revdeleted it in thinking that it had been revdeleted in the previous few minutes. This is exactly why I prefer public recorded forums. Now no one can go back to clear up the confusion. For all I know, I might have to apologize for a misunderstanding, and it would really suck if I somehow misrepresented things and didn't have any opportunity to straighten things out. Of course, it is entirely on me. I knew that the IRC channels weren't logged, and that it was a bannable offense to log them (for those who aren't familiar with IRC, this essentially means that you aren't supposed to save conversations there; in most channels that's A-OK, but on all of the most used wikipedia channels it seems to be disallowed). Next time I have a concern, I will take it to wikimedia-l or one of the other mailing lists. As this example also shows, one can't be sure that the revs on a page within Wikimedia's wikis themselves won't be redacted after-the-fact. I'm not expressing an opinion about whether stuff should be redacted or on what grounds, but I am asserting that it is possible to do so. There is a discussion about this issue there, as well. It can be followed at the link I posted earlier. Here's the last page of the discussion that includes the comment above: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680p=96600#p96600 ,Wil Hi Wil, This is exactly why others have suggested that you slow down, and focus on learning the basics of the Wikimedia projects and movements before jumping into the hottest, most controversial issues. It takes time to develop the understanding necessary to draw conclusions, especially in areas most likely to erupt into drama and heated exchanges. To wit, I don't believe it can even be determined if someone is logging a channel, and many people (including Wikimedians) log all of their channels. Several Wikimedia-related channels are publicly logged. Other channels prohibit people from publishing logs. It's also quite common knowledge that revisions can be deleted (by any administrator, where they remain viewable by administrators) or suppressed altogether (by users with Oversight rights). I think if you considered it with a full possession of the facts, you would agree that this is good and necessary. In any case, thank you Lila for your note! I appreciate that you have made it clear you've seen the threads of the last few weeks and understand the concerns that posters have described. ~Nathan ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Nathan, I was responding to Lila's note to clarify that I had made the decision to not discuss anything privately with any WMF employee. The IRC discussion was referenced by Fae, so I sent a link to the discussion so everyone could see what he was talking about; I will absolutely stand by my words. I think it's very important for everyone to understand that the WMF is not trying to directly control my communication with the community and with WMF employees. These are all my decisions. Everyone who is encouraging me to stop posting on this thread seem to be the people who were asking for the clarification of my role in the first place. These people seemed to think this matter was urgent and that we shouldn't wait any longer- much less for me to understand the intricacies of those IRC channels- to get clarification. I was not the person to bring up the IRC discussion, but once it was brought up, I don't think many people would disagree that it was appropriate for me to respond with my account. We are all interested in hearing all sides of every story here, aren't we? I'm starting to get the feeling that there are things that some people on this list don't want *anyone* to discuss. After all, you could simply ignore my messages or even filter them from your inbox, if you are so inclined. This impression has been troubling me greatly. Do you know that this is *precisely* what many on Wikipediocracy are saying about this list? Are they right? ,Wil I'm way post having posted too much on this subject, so one last brief message and that will be it for me. Wil, I don't think anyone has objected to criticism of Wikimedia or enwp policies on this list (other than over forum selection for certain issues). People *have* objected to your decision to associate with WO, and have attempted to describe to you why they object. Others (including me) have pointed out that your inexperience hampers your power as a critic of internal processes. There are just a long list of things you don't know much about, but that doesn't seem to prevent you from complaining about them in high visibility forums like this list. My advice is to take time away from lists and forums and controversial discussions and just learn and experience the projects. Then come back and join the more meta discussions. I suspect you won't choose to follow that advice, since its been given multiple other times and you haven't yet, but I hope you understand the distinction between suggesting that you listen and learn before you opine and demanding that you piss off and stop posting full stop. I'm doing the former, no one has done the latter. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Wil Sinclair wllm@... writes: Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. Indeed you can. If you navigate to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log and enter the title of the page in the Target (title or user) field, you can see GorillaWarfare (talk | contribs | block) changed visibility of a revision. I was the one who deleted the revision in question. I'd like to clarify that I'm not an employee of the WMF. I'm an administrator, and a member of the Arbitration Committee, but my membership on that committee is by community election. It is neither paid by nor decided by the WMF. The deletion of that revision was done in my administrator, not arbitrator, capacity. As for determining who is and is not an employee of the WMF, WMF employees editing as employees (and not community members) tend to have (WMF) in their usernames. If nothing else, you can check their userpages, where they will mention if they are employees. Of course, it is entirely on me. I knew that the IRC channels weren't logged, and that it was a bannable offense to log them (for those who aren't familiar with IRC, this essentially means that you aren't supposed to save conversations there; in most channels that's A-OK, but on all of the most used wikipedia channels it seems to be disallowed). As some have already pointed out, it is in fact just fine to log Wikimedia channels. It is the publishing of these logs (from channels that restrict logging) that is considered to be a bannable offense. There is a discussion about this issue there, as well. It can be followed at the link I posted earlier. Here's the last page of the discussion that includes the comment above: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680p=96600#p96600 ,Wil In fact, I'd suggest you *do* begin logging your IRC communications. Had you been logging, you would have been able to refer to your logs to review my explanation of why the user in question is typically immediately banned from Wikimedia-related IRC channels. You also would have been able to refer to the conversation in which I pointed you to the revision deletion policy, and the specific criterion under which I removed the revision. You would also have remembered that you did not ask me for any more detail about the relationship between Wikimedia-related IRC channels and Wikimedia projects (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IRC#How_is_Wikipedia_IRC_related_to _Wikipedia.3F), about the IRC channel guidelines (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/wikipedia/Guidelines, also linked from the channel topic in #wikipedia-en) or expectations of channel operators (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/wikipedia/Channel_operator_guidelines), or about the revision itself and its contents. Yours, Molly (GorillaWarfare) ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note
Thank you for the explanations, Lila, Molly, and everyone else. Wil, I happen to be waiting on an email right now so I have a few minutes to spare. If you need clarification on anything that has been said in this discussion I am happy to meet you on IRC or have a Skype conversation. I would suggest that this thread is consuming a lot of bandwidth in this email list and we should move the discussion elsewhere. We can also talk on your talk page, although I think your more conversational style is better suited to IRC or Skype. Cheers, Pine ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
We are all interested in hearing all sides of every story here, aren't we? I'm starting to get the feeling that there are things that some people on this list don't want *anyone* to discuss. Which things, and which people are you aiming at, particularly? --Martijn After all, you could simply ignore my messages or even filter them from your inbox, if you are so inclined. This impression has been troubling me greatly. Do you know that this is *precisely* what many on Wikipediocracy are saying about this list? Are they right? ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 1:07 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. I posted the following to Wikipediocracy a few minutes ago: I may have misread which page the rev was on, or I misunderstood the person who said s/he revdeleted it in thinking that it had been revdeleted in the previous few minutes. This is exactly why I prefer public recorded forums. Now no one can go back to clear up the confusion. For all I know, I might have to apologize for a misunderstanding, and it would really suck if I somehow misrepresented things and didn't have any opportunity to straighten things out. Of course, it is entirely on me. I knew that the IRC channels weren't logged, and that it was a bannable offense to log them (for those who aren't familiar with IRC, this essentially means that you aren't supposed to save conversations there; in most channels that's A-OK, but on all of the most used wikipedia channels it seems to be disallowed). Next time I have a concern, I will take it to wikimedia-l or one of the other mailing lists. As this example also shows, one can't be sure that the revs on a page within Wikimedia's wikis themselves won't be redacted after-the-fact. I'm not expressing an opinion about whether stuff should be redacted or on what grounds, but I am asserting that it is possible to do so. There is a discussion about this issue there, as well. It can be followed at the link I posted earlier. Here's the last page of the discussion that includes the comment above: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680p=96600#p96600 ,Wil Hi Wil, This is exactly why others have suggested that you slow down, and focus on learning the basics of the Wikimedia projects and movements before jumping into the hottest, most controversial issues. It takes time to develop the understanding necessary to draw conclusions, especially in areas most likely to erupt into drama and heated exchanges. To wit, I don't believe it can even be determined if someone is logging a channel, and many people (including Wikimedians) log all of their channels. Several Wikimedia-related channels are publicly logged. Other channels prohibit people from publishing logs. It's also quite common knowledge that revisions can be deleted (by any administrator, where they remain viewable by administrators) or suppressed altogether (by users with Oversight rights). I think if you considered it with a full possession of the facts, you would agree that this is good and necessary. In any case, thank you Lila for your note! I appreciate that you have made it clear you've seen the threads of the last few weeks and understand the concerns that posters have described. ~Nathan ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/guidelineswikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Well, we were discussing IRC and my experience there in this thread, and many people were asking me to wait. I find this interesting, because some on Wikipediocracy also asked me to wait, with the significant exception that this was to wait until I so something, then come back. In this case, it was wait until you've read these articles and seen this stuff on-wiki, then come back. I agreed. They then checked in with me regularly (I think most of them thought I was going to bail), and once I had read the material I had agreed to read, we resumed the discussion. It's all here: It's all here on this thread: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4531 But I think I've figured out a way for me to bring up topics without worrying about my level of experience with Wikipedia/Wikimedia. I'll start a new thread with my concerns and what I've come up with. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: We are all interested in hearing all sides of every story here, aren't we? I'm starting to get the feeling that there are things that some people on this list don't want *anyone* to discuss. Which things, and which people are you aiming at, particularly? --Martijn After all, you could simply ignore my messages or even filter them from your inbox, if you are so inclined. This impression has been troubling me greatly. Do you know that this is *precisely* what many on Wikipediocracy are saying about this list? Are they right? ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 1:07 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. I posted the following to Wikipediocracy a few minutes ago: I may have misread which page the rev was on, or I misunderstood the person who said s/he revdeleted it in thinking that it had been revdeleted in the previous few minutes. This is exactly why I prefer public recorded forums. Now no one can go back to clear up the confusion. For all I know, I might have to apologize for a misunderstanding, and it would really suck if I somehow misrepresented things and didn't have any opportunity to straighten things out. Of course, it is entirely on me. I knew that the IRC channels weren't logged, and that it was a bannable offense to log them (for those who aren't familiar with IRC, this essentially means that you aren't supposed to save conversations there; in most channels that's A-OK, but on all of the most used wikipedia channels it seems to be disallowed). Next time I have a concern, I will take it to wikimedia-l or one of the other mailing lists. As this example also shows, one can't be sure that the revs on a page within Wikimedia's wikis themselves won't be redacted after-the-fact. I'm not expressing an opinion about whether stuff should be redacted or on what grounds, but I am asserting that it is possible to do so. There is a discussion about this issue there, as well. It can be followed at the link I posted earlier. Here's the last page of the discussion that includes the comment above: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680p=96600#p96600 ,Wil Hi Wil, This is exactly why others have suggested that you slow down, and focus on learning the basics of the Wikimedia projects and movements before jumping into the hottest, most controversial issues. It takes time to develop the understanding necessary to draw conclusions, especially in areas most likely to erupt into drama and heated exchanges. To wit, I don't believe it can even be determined if someone is logging a channel, and many people (including Wikimedians) log all of their channels. Several Wikimedia-related channels are publicly logged. Other channels prohibit people from publishing logs. It's also quite common knowledge that revisions can be deleted (by any administrator, where they remain viewable by administrators) or suppressed altogether (by users with Oversight rights). I think if you considered it with a full possession of the facts, you would agree that this is good and necessary. In any case, thank you Lila for your note! I appreciate that you have made it clear you've seen the threads of the last few weeks and understand the concerns that posters have described. ~Nathan ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines
[Wikimedia-l] Child Protection and Harassment Policy
Martijn asked me which things I thought that some people on this list don't want anyone to discuss, so here are the two examples that I'm most interested in: Child Protection- I'd like to hear about ways that policy might be changed here to better protect children, especially given some of the content on Commons. I'd also like to hear about specific examples of content on Commons that a parent might not find appropriate for their children. Note that this is not a repeat of the discussion to understand what policies are in place, as I have already opened a specific thread for that. Harassment- I'd like to hear about existing policies around harassment and potential changes to such policies. In particular, I'm interested in how the community might tackle this problem to make the site a more comfortable place for the oft-mentioned female constituent that has long been in decline. Since I don't have enough experience with the community and WP yet to discuss controversial topics myself, I will not chime in unless the thread has very obviously gone off topic. Just to pick an arbitrary about of time that is more than the few months that others have mentioned here, let's say that you can only participate in this discussion if you have at least one year of experience as an active contributor. Now, I'll just sit back and hear all sides of the story. ,Wil ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Wil, I have been following the conversation and I can feel your good-hearted nature. Please do not be offended when they say wait to you. They mean no harm to you, just the opposite. I know how frustrating it is to have to wait, because all of us have gone through the same... Just to give you an example of my experience, it took me almost a year until I felt comfortable editing in my home project. Understanding the subjective experience of editing is something you will not find in any book, you have to go through it and then some opinions will make more sense to you. It took me many more years until I ventured to bring up topics that affect bigger communities. And now after ten years I am still learning... just figure. Patience is a very positive trait and we never have enough of it. They have been giving it to you because they appreciate you, and if you give it back to them they will appreciate you even more. Welcome to the community and an internet hug for you! Micru On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:18 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Well, we were discussing IRC and my experience there in this thread, and many people were asking me to wait. I find this interesting, because some on Wikipediocracy also asked me to wait, with the significant exception that this was to wait until I so something, then come back. In this case, it was wait until you've read these articles and seen this stuff on-wiki, then come back. I agreed. They then checked in with me regularly (I think most of them thought I was going to bail), and once I had read the material I had agreed to read, we resumed the discussion. It's all here: It's all here on this thread: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4531 But I think I've figured out a way for me to bring up topics without worrying about my level of experience with Wikipedia/Wikimedia. I'll start a new thread with my concerns and what I've come up with. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 1:00 PM, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: We are all interested in hearing all sides of every story here, aren't we? I'm starting to get the feeling that there are things that some people on this list don't want *anyone* to discuss. Which things, and which people are you aiming at, particularly? --Martijn After all, you could simply ignore my messages or even filter them from your inbox, if you are so inclined. This impression has been troubling me greatly. Do you know that this is *precisely* what many on Wikipediocracy are saying about this list? Are they right? ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:23 AM, Nathan nawr...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 1:07 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. I posted the following to Wikipediocracy a few minutes ago: I may have misread which page the rev was on, or I misunderstood the person who said s/he revdeleted it in thinking that it had been revdeleted in the previous few minutes. This is exactly why I prefer public recorded forums. Now no one can go back to clear up the confusion. For all I know, I might have to apologize for a misunderstanding, and it would really suck if I somehow misrepresented things and didn't have any opportunity to straighten things out. Of course, it is entirely on me. I knew that the IRC channels weren't logged, and that it was a bannable offense to log them (for those who aren't familiar with IRC, this essentially means that you aren't supposed to save conversations there; in most channels that's A-OK, but on all of the most used wikipedia channels it seems to be disallowed). Next time I have a concern, I will take it to wikimedia-l or one of the other mailing lists. As this example also shows, one can't be sure that the revs on a page within Wikimedia's wikis themselves won't be redacted after-the-fact. I'm not expressing an opinion about whether stuff should be redacted or on what grounds, but I am asserting that it is possible to do so. There is a discussion about this issue there, as well. It can be followed at the link I posted earlier. Here's the last page of the discussion that includes the comment above: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680p=96600#p96600 ,Wil Hi Wil, This is exactly why others have suggested that you slow down, and focus on learning the basics of the Wikimedia projects and movements before jumping into the hottest, most controversial issues. It takes time to develop the understanding necessary to draw conclusions, especially in areas most likely to erupt into drama and heated exchanges. To wit, I don't believe it can even be determined if someone is logging a channel, and many people (including Wikimedians) log
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Hi Will, we generally can find critics mainly from those who cannot understand or do not have patience when newbies make mistakes. Obviously I also have this problem sometimes (for this some ironic comments when I suggested in a recent topic suggesting we should criticize more kindlyhttp://lists.wikimedia.org/pipermail/wikimedia-l/2014-May/071742.html), for this I believe it'll take sometime for we, as a group or even Wikimedia Foundation as an organization, to realise the importance of making mistakes http://ase.tufts.edu/cogstud/dennett/papers/howmista.htm and give more importance on our learnings. My general feeling is that we lack the necessary patience and the limitation of online communication tends to raise unnecessary issues (sometimes called wikidramas), but I have no idea how this cultural change can be achieved in the Wikimedia community. Maybe it will come with nonviolent communication http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nonviolent_Communication or when we learn to ignore the violence and deal with it with wisdom. Leadership in this (crazy, in the good sense :) horizontal community can also be a factor to improve the discussions environment, be it on mailing lists, forums or the wiki. The TeaHouse is a great example. The ideia of Wikipedia ambassadors to work on educational environments, although not sustainable in the mid term, is another cool idea. Those great videos made by Victor idem. More ideias will come, I believe. :) Tom 2014-05-28 17:18 GMT-03:00 Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com: Well, we were discussing IRC and my experience there in this thread, and many people were asking me to wait. I find this interesting, because some on Wikipediocracy also asked me to wait, with the significant exception that this was to wait until I so something, then come back. In this case, it was wait until you've read these articles and seen this stuff on-wiki, then come back. I agreed. They then checked in with me regularly (I think most of them thought I was going to bail), and once I had read the material I had agreed to read, we resumed the discussion. It's all here: It's all here on this thread: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4531 But I think I've figured out a way for me to bring up topics without worrying about my level of experience with Wikipedia/Wikimedia. I'll start a new thread with my concerns and what I've come up with. ,Wil ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Wil, On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 3:24 AM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: As you can see there is a lot of consternation being directed your way, and at some stage, and this will teach you well for the future as well, you have to learn to walk away from the keyboard. If you can't do this, and I have a feeling you might have difficulty doing so, try to at least delay hitting the send button, but this is something else you may have trouble doing. This is especially important on this list, as there is a sending limit per month that people are able send, and this is obviously done to prevent the drowning out of other participants by any single personyou would likely be well on your way to this limit by now. Wil, if you truly wanted to see how the projects work, usually the best way is to get involved at the ground level. Some people may want to make some edits on Wikipedia to an article on a subject that interest them. Others might add some information on one of their favourite holiday spots on Wikivoyage. Others might prefer to take a photo of their penis and upload it to Commons. There are literally plenty of ways for a n00b get involved on our projects. You have missed an opportunity here to be able to help Lila with her new job. Firstly, this is Lila's moment to shine and an opportunity for the community to get to know her and vice versa. It's a bit difficult for a sense of trust to be built when you have an overbearing partner essentially publicly pushing her aside and taking all of our attention. For example, I really don't know much about Lila, but I know more about you. And that presents a massive problem, and believe you me, others are thinking it, I'm willing to say it publicly. Secondly, as a n00b, you would have been a great person for Lila to use as a sounding board as to how it is for new editors on our projects to be able to edit and understand how to navigate our projects. You may not be aware but our projects have a dire editor retention rate, and your experiences, given that it is evident you are green to our projects, may have been able to help Lila understand that particular issue. Getting involved as you have done has only gone to serve Wikipediocracy by handing them the best PSA they could hope for on a silver platter. Having said that, if you want to get involved on Commons, #wikimedia-commons is full of helpful editors who might be able to give you some further ideas on how to contribute to that project. Learn the ropes first; there's plenty of time for wikipolitics and the like later on. Cheers Russavia ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
I cannot believe I am saying this; but I totally agree with Russavia. Wil; why not have a go contributing to some WP articles and seeing what your experience is. We have a comment statement that gets made on flame threads, which boils down to isn't there an article you could be writing? Tom On 28 May 2014 21:44, Russavia russavia.wikipe...@gmail.com wrote: Wil, On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 3:24 AM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: As you can see there is a lot of consternation being directed your way, and at some stage, and this will teach you well for the future as well, you have to learn to walk away from the keyboard. If you can't do this, and I have a feeling you might have difficulty doing so, try to at least delay hitting the send button, but this is something else you may have trouble doing. This is especially important on this list, as there is a sending limit per month that people are able send, and this is obviously done to prevent the drowning out of other participants by any single personyou would likely be well on your way to this limit by now. Wil, if you truly wanted to see how the projects work, usually the best way is to get involved at the ground level. Some people may want to make some edits on Wikipedia to an article on a subject that interest them. Others might add some information on one of their favourite holiday spots on Wikivoyage. Others might prefer to take a photo of their penis and upload it to Commons. There are literally plenty of ways for a n00b get involved on our projects. You have missed an opportunity here to be able to help Lila with her new job. Firstly, this is Lila's moment to shine and an opportunity for the community to get to know her and vice versa. It's a bit difficult for a sense of trust to be built when you have an overbearing partner essentially publicly pushing her aside and taking all of our attention. For example, I really don't know much about Lila, but I know more about you. And that presents a massive problem, and believe you me, others are thinking it, I'm willing to say it publicly. Secondly, as a n00b, you would have been a great person for Lila to use as a sounding board as to how it is for new editors on our projects to be able to edit and understand how to navigate our projects. You may not be aware but our projects have a dire editor retention rate, and your experiences, given that it is evident you are green to our projects, may have been able to help Lila understand that particular issue. Getting involved as you have done has only gone to serve Wikipediocracy by handing them the best PSA they could hope for on a silver platter. Having said that, if you want to get involved on Commons, #wikimedia-commons is full of helpful editors who might be able to give you some further ideas on how to contribute to that project. Learn the ropes first; there's plenty of time for wikipolitics and the like later on. Cheers Russavia ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Thanks for all the pointers, Molly, and for disclosing that it was you for the sake of adding a bit more info to the discussion; you haven't done anything wrong as far as I know, and I didn't feel comfortable mentioning your IRC nick in case there were any confusion. I simply didn't get a chance to look at that diff before you revdeleted it; it was the only concrete evidence that I saw linked there for why badmachine was kicked. I probably should have clicked on it immediately. My bad. I've apologized to you here and on Wikipediocracy, but apologies are always worth doing directly and for as many to see as possible: I'm very sorry for mistaking you for a WMF employee. I take full responsibility for my words and actions. I hope you can forgive me. To be clear, a WMF employee did mail Lila with safety concerns. That was obviously not Molly, and, ultimately, I don't think it's important who it was. It just made me personally uncomfortable communicating with WMF employees in any private setting. I'm hoping that will change as we all begin to trust each other more. Even then, I have no plans to discuss WMF matters of any sort with WMF employees; that's to everyone's benefit IMO. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:41 PM, Molly White gorillawarfarewikipe...@gmail.com wrote: Wil Sinclair wllm@... writes: Thanks, I wasn't aware I could do this. I'm assuming that it would be obvious who was an employee at Wikimedia in the log, too. Indeed you can. If you navigate to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Log and enter the title of the page in the Target (title or user) field, you can see GorillaWarfare (talk | contribs | block) changed visibility of a revision. I was the one who deleted the revision in question. I'd like to clarify that I'm not an employee of the WMF. I'm an administrator, and a member of the Arbitration Committee, but my membership on that committee is by community election. It is neither paid by nor decided by the WMF. The deletion of that revision was done in my administrator, not arbitrator, capacity. As for determining who is and is not an employee of the WMF, WMF employees editing as employees (and not community members) tend to have (WMF) in their usernames. If nothing else, you can check their userpages, where they will mention if they are employees. Of course, it is entirely on me. I knew that the IRC channels weren't logged, and that it was a bannable offense to log them (for those who aren't familiar with IRC, this essentially means that you aren't supposed to save conversations there; in most channels that's A-OK, but on all of the most used wikipedia channels it seems to be disallowed). As some have already pointed out, it is in fact just fine to log Wikimedia channels. It is the publishing of these logs (from channels that restrict logging) that is considered to be a bannable offense. There is a discussion about this issue there, as well. It can be followed at the link I posted earlier. Here's the last page of the discussion that includes the comment above: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=14t=4680p=96600#p96600 ,Wil In fact, I'd suggest you *do* begin logging your IRC communications. Had you been logging, you would have been able to refer to your logs to review my explanation of why the user in question is typically immediately banned from Wikimedia-related IRC channels. You also would have been able to refer to the conversation in which I pointed you to the revision deletion policy, and the specific criterion under which I removed the revision. You would also have remembered that you did not ask me for any more detail about the relationship between Wikimedia-related IRC channels and Wikimedia projects (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IRC#How_is_Wikipedia_IRC_related_to _Wikipedia.3F), about the IRC channel guidelines (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/wikipedia/Guidelines, also linked from the channel topic in #wikipedia-en) or expectations of channel operators (https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/IRC/wikipedia/Channel_operator_guidelines), or about the revision itself and its contents. Yours, Molly (GorillaWarfare) ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Child Protection and Harassment Policy
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:32 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: I'd also like to hear about specific examples of content on Commons that a parent might not find appropriate for their children. Wil and all, Note that all the links I am posting below are NSFW. 1. The other day I found that if a Portuguese or Russian child searches in Commons for the word Mom in their language, on the first page of search results they will find this NSFW image: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Martin_Van_Maele_-_La_Grande_Danse_macabre_des_vifs_-_29.jpg In the Portuguese case, it's actually the top result. https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearchsearch=mam%C3%A3fulltext=Search https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearchprofile=defaultsearch=%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B0fulltext=Search There are many other images by the same artist in Commons that parents might find inappropriate: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:La_Grande_Danse_macabre_des_vifs 2. A while ago, the top result for the French word for homework was an old bw video showing sex between an actress dressed as a nun and a dog. That particular video was eventually deleted, after enjoying a half-year stint as one of the most-viewed files on Commons, with 20,000 to 30,000 views per month: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Devoirs_de_vacances.ogv http://stats.grok.se/commons.m/201203/File:Devoirs_de_vacances.ogv However, all the other videos from the same series are still on Commons: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Videos_from_Polissons_et_galipettes Most of them show various forms of unsimulated intercourse etc. 3. Commons contains dozens of masturbation videos uploaded by volunteers, housed in https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Videos_of_masturbation Check the various subcategories like https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:GIF_videos_of_male_masturbation https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Ogv_videos_of_male_masturbation and so forth. There is much more of that ilk, but it's a start. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Wil Sinclair wllm@... writes: I've apologized to you here and on Wikipediocracy, but apologies are always worth doing directly and for as many to see as possible: I'm very sorry for mistaking you for a WMF employee. I take full responsibility for my words and actions. I hope you can forgive me. No need to apologize. I'm really not horrified at being mistaken for a staffer, I'm just trying to clear up any confusion. To be clear, a WMF employee did mail Lila with safety concerns. That was obviously not Molly, and, ultimately, I don't think it's important who it was. It just made me personally uncomfortable communicating with WMF employees in any private setting. I'm hoping that will change as we all begin to trust each other more. Even then, I have no plans to discuss WMF matters of any sort with WMF employees; that's to everyone's benefit IMO. Ah, this segues well into the email I was just drafting: I have to say that I was surprised to see the contents of what appears to be an internal staff email being brought up both on Wikipediocracy and here by a non-staff member. Wil, can you clarify if you were copied on the email, and if not, how you gained access to it? You've repeatedly emphasized that you are not affiliated with/do not influence/are completely separate from the WMF, and even that you and Lila are not even discussing Wikimedia-related matters with one another at home, so I'm sure you can understand the confusion. Yours, Molly (GorillaWarfare) ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Child Protection and Harassment Policy
Child Protection- I'd like to hear about ways that policy might be changed here to better protect children, especially given some of the content on Commons. I'd also like to hear about specific examples of content on Commons that a parent might not find appropriate for their children. Note that this is not a repeat of the discussion to understand what policies are in place, as I have already opened a specific thread for that. You seem to have conflated two items here... one is the idea of child protection, and the other is of objectionable items on commons. I don't think that in any way works. Our child protection policies are about protecting children when they interact online. This is a perennial problem for any internet site, as I am sure you know. We do have some policies that help a lot (for example, admins always err on the side of caution and delete personal details that underage editors post). We have avenues to report potential issues such as grooming. Could more be done? Yes, I've thought so; for example publicising the problem more. But is WP worse that other communities (note; not site) of similar size? Probably not. At least not in my experience (which, of course, is pretty extensive given my former job). Child protection from porn, etc.? I think it's well established that kids can come across porn anywhere (apparently, Facebook, if my cousins' activity on there are anything to go by :S). And frankly, it's never struck me as an issue under the umbrella of xhild protection. How far does policing it become our job and not that of a parent? It's a difficult decision... especially when browser-based content filters are prevelant and easy to set up. I've always said; we should educate our users about how to install and use content filters, as this will benefit them outside WP too! So then, on the flip side of your comment here you have the global issue of objectionable images. This is a much broader issue that the narrow one you're focusing on here. For example, one of the main (and by main I mean constant and persistent, beyond any complaints of porn!) complaints we see relate to images of the prophet mohammed. How do you, then, feel about Commons hosting images like that? One of the tenets of the projects are that they are not censored, which I think is a good thing. However, we've not yet struck a balance between displaying everything and filtering things an individual doesn't want to see. I like the Mohammed example because it emphasises the problem where those of us who are not Muslim find a subset of images perfectly okay, but a Muslim might not. Since I don't have enough experience with the community and WP yet to discuss controversial topics myself, I will not chime in unless the thread has very obviously gone off topic. Just to pick an arbitrary about of time that is more than the few months that others have mentioned here, let's say that you can only participate in this discussion if you have at least one year of experience as an active contributor. I'm not sure what purpose it serves to bring up controversial topics, in this forum, with an express note that you have nothing new to bring? ;) Not to be too critical; but do you imagine that these issues aren't being discussed on the various projects - hopefully with incremental improvement each time. Or that individuals here are not aware of them? More than anything though, I'm sure you're an experienced internet chap - what did you expect to recieve in stirring up two relatively ingrained sides? It wasn't very deft, I have to observe :) One thing it might be important to communicate is that whilst this list is useful for global discussion, it's not a venue that any agreement or consensus is reached. So these discussions are really best conducted on-wiki. I'm not sure if you've actually attempted to open such topics on any of the projects, but the discussion you appear to be looking for can really only happen there (rather than here, or IRC, for example). Regards, Tom ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Slide deck about Wikimedia?
Thank you, Federico and Jean-Frédéric. This is what I was looking for. From: jeanfrederic.w...@gmail.com Date: Mon, 26 May 2014 09:31:09 +0200 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Slide deck about Wikimedia? Hello, Hello, Where can I find recent presentations about Wikimedia and what each of the main projects is for? I visited outreach.wikimedia.org but didn't see slides or overviews. Thanks! You might want to check out https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Presentations. It’s probably not super up-to-date, but many folks indicate a way to get the source ODP file (usually by contacting them, SlideShare link, etc). -- Jean-Frédéric ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] About Wikipedia medical entries
Let's not focus on what others are doing wrong, but improve on what we may be doing wrong - that's the only thing we have most influence on in changing. Are there spot checks by professionals in medicine, or ways to flag often-read pages for peer review? That seems like a way that experts could help without getting into edit wars. The wikiproject medicine chat is fine but incomplete. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] The first three weeks.
It is great to hear how you are working to learn about the vast Wikimedia community, its projects, its priorities and its challenges, Lila. I'm thinking there's something else that all of us should help you celebrate as well: after only a few weeks on the job, being named to the Forbes list of the 100 most powerful women: http://www.forbes.com/profile/lila-tretikov/ That's a great start. Risker On 28 May 2014 08:58, Anna Torres a...@wikimedia.org.ar wrote: +1 Great to hearing your experience. As being a new ED too (3 months now) I can indentify myself with your experience: the first month is about listening and getting to know :) All the best for what is to come! Hope to meeting you asap! Hugs from Argentina. 2014-05-28 2:48 GMT-03:00 Nurunnaby Chowdhury n...@nhasive.com: +1 Thank you for this write-up. Happy to read..:) On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 7:24 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Lila Tretikov wrote: I wanted to give you an update on my first three weeks of Wikimedia immersion -- this will also go on the blog. As you probably noticed, my leadership approach is rooted in observation and focused discussions -- this means I watch and listen more than I talk. But I expect that you are probably curious about what I have observed and learned so far, and to know a little more about who I am. [...] Thank you for this write-up. It was nice to read. :-) Your recommendations on areas you see as priorities for development (while keeping in mind that not everything can be a priority at once!); [...] I think this continues to be a huge pain point. Developer resources are scarce and expensive and there's often a feeling that the latest Wikimedia Foundation initiatives trump all other worthwhile projects. I think we need to find a better way to more fairly allocate resources. As a concrete example, there continue to be dozens of Wikimedia Foundation developers and other staff specifically focused on the English Wikipedia and sometimes Wikimedia Commons, while the other sister projects such as Wiktionary, Wikibooks, and Wikisource continue to receive almost no direct attention. (Over the past few years, even the term sister projects has become mildly insulting. These projects are more accurately the red-headed stepchild projects.) This won't happen quickly, but we must make it a goal to do better in this area. MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- *Nurunnaby Chowdhury Hasive* Administrator | Bengali Wikipedia http://bn.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:nhasive Member | IEG Committee, Wikimedia Foundationhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/People Social Media Interaction Expert | The Daily Prothom-Alohttp://www.prothom-alo.com Bangladesh Ambassador | Open Knowledge Foundation Network http://www.okfn.org Treasurer | Bangladesh Open Source Network (BdOSN) http://www.bdosn.org Task Force Member | Mozilla Bangladesh http://www.mozillabd.org fb.com/nhasive | @nhasive http://www.twitter.com/nhasive | Skype: nhasive | www.nhasive.com ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Anna Torres Adell Directora Ejecutiva *A.C Wikimedia Argentina* *Imprime este correo solo si es realmente necesario* ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.orghttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/guidelineswikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Hello Victor: I continue to admire your persistence, and now it seems that of your partner, to fully engage in the process of bringing your considerable talent and seemingly boundless energy to making it possible for very single human being to freely share in the sum of all knowledge. It reminds me of one of my favorite quotes from author James Baldwin: Those who say it can' be done are usually interrupted by others doing it. Keep on keepin' on! Amy On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 8:49 AM, Victor Grigas vgri...@wikimedia.org wrote: My significant other applied for a grant and got 500 Wikireaders distributed to 3 schools: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:Aislinn_Dewey/Distribute_WikiReaders_to_Schools/Report https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/help-distribute-wikireaders-and-provide-an-opportunity-for-kids-to-learn On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:31 AM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 May 2014 15:04, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: ... So that Wil's interest manifested around the time Lila was announced as the next ED seems to me to be perfectly natural, even if I have expressed serious concerns about *how* that interest was expressed. -- Marc There is a big difference between your partner having an interest in your organization, and going on to publish public complaints about the staff that you have complete authority and responsibility for employing. I may be wrong, perhaps someone has some examples of where this worked out well? The only examples from history and the political world I can recall, did not. Fae -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- *Victor Grigas* Storyteller https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Knv6D6Thi0 Wikimedia Foundation vgri...@wikimedia.org https://donate.wikimedia.org/ ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/guidelineswikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- *Amy Vossbrinck* *Executive Assistant to the* *Chief of Finance and Administration, Garfield Byrd* *Wikimedia Foundation* *149 New Montgomery Street* *San Francisco, CA 94105* *415.839.6885 ext 6628 415.839.6885%20%C2%A0ext%206628* *avossbri...@wikimedia.org avossbri...@wikimedia.org* ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] Child Protection and Harassment Policy
You might be interested in look at projects like http://schools-wikipedia.org/ and other subset wikis. When I worked at One Laptop per Child we distributed a offline Wikipedia slice along with the XO-1 laptops to many schools and children. We were in fact careful to curate our offline article/image slice to avoid gratuitously inappropriate content. We felt this to be an appropriate thing for OLPC to do, for its audience, *not* something we expected upstream Wikipedia to do. There are many differences between a Children's Encyclopedia and Britannica! OLPC did not censor links in any way, so a laptop connected to the internet could see and follow links to any article/image on Wikipedia (not just articles/images in our curated offline subset). Often schools deployed their own content-filtering firewalls on their network connections. We felt this was a matter best implemented and managed by the school, with their own local community standards. Erik and I were spitballing wiki ideas last week, and one of the things we discussed was ways to make it easier for third parties to curate wikipedia subsets, as OLPC and the schools project did. It is certainly already possible, but it could be made easier. If you are interested in making a child friendly wikipedia, that is certainly one way to go at it, and the ground is well trod. --scott -- (http://cscott.net) ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Ah, this segues well into the email I was just drafting: I have to say that I was surprised to see the contents of what appears to be an internal staff email being brought up both on Wikipediocracy and here by a non-staff member. Wil, can you clarify if you were copied on the email, and if not, how you gained access to it? You've repeatedly emphasized that you are not affiliated with/do not influence/are completely separate from the WMF, and even that you and Lila are not even discussing Wikimedia-related matters with one another at home, so I'm sure you can understand the confusion. Yours, Molly (GorillaWarfare) Of course. While I was talking to you and others on IRC, Lila came over and asked me to stop. She usually doesn't do that under any circumstances, because she respects my right to say what I want where I want. She replied a WMF employee emailed me that there are safety concerns, and safety of my employees is a matter that I can't compromise on. She didn't say who wrote her or what their specific concerns were, but I'm not about to cause anyone concern over their safety personally + Lila felt she was responsible for the employee's well being in this case. I did find it somewhat annoying, since it certainly wasn't anything that I said there that would cause safety concerns and no one msg'd me about it directly. I just asked why badmachine was kicked and about the rather mean manner under which he was kicked. But I told you guys why I was leaving and left. FWIW, I don't plan on coming back anytime soon. This was the first time that Lila told me anything about internal matters, and it was limited to exactly what I wrote above. Frankly, I don't want to know about WMF's affairs, and I'm taking action to avoid knowing anything more for the foreseeable future. ,Wil ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Child Protection and Harassment Policy
On 29 May 2014 07:13, Thomas Morton morton.tho...@googlemail.com wrote: Child Protection- I'd like to hear about ways that policy might be changed here to better protect children, especially given some of the content on Commons. I'd also like to hear about specific examples of content on Commons that a parent might not find appropriate for their children. Note that this is not a repeat of the discussion to understand what policies are in place, as I have already opened a specific thread for that. You seem to have conflated two items here... one is the idea of child protection, and the other is of objectionable items on commons. I don't think that in any way works. Indeed, and the unexpected search results on Commons matter has been discussed at length here and on the projects, and at length, and recently. I don't think there's any reluctance to discuss this, there is a general consensus that there's a problem, but different folks offer different solutions. On the other hand, coming out with ways to protect minors from predators on our projects, without throwing out the bathwater as well, would probably be an interesting discussion that I don't recall being raised here recently. Cheers, Craig ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Child Protection and Harassment Policy
Sorry, the n00b has to step in with a couple of clarifications. :) I was asking about 2 separate issues, so no conflation there. Also I asked very carefully for *all* sides of the issues: Now, I'll just sit back and hear all sides of the story. All right, back on topic! :) ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 2:13 PM, Thomas Morton morton.tho...@googlemail.com wrote: Child Protection- I'd like to hear about ways that policy might be changed here to better protect children, especially given some of the content on Commons. I'd also like to hear about specific examples of content on Commons that a parent might not find appropriate for their children. Note that this is not a repeat of the discussion to understand what policies are in place, as I have already opened a specific thread for that. You seem to have conflated two items here... one is the idea of child protection, and the other is of objectionable items on commons. I don't think that in any way works. Our child protection policies are about protecting children when they interact online. This is a perennial problem for any internet site, as I am sure you know. We do have some policies that help a lot (for example, admins always err on the side of caution and delete personal details that underage editors post). We have avenues to report potential issues such as grooming. Could more be done? Yes, I've thought so; for example publicising the problem more. But is WP worse that other communities (note; not site) of similar size? Probably not. At least not in my experience (which, of course, is pretty extensive given my former job). Child protection from porn, etc.? I think it's well established that kids can come across porn anywhere (apparently, Facebook, if my cousins' activity on there are anything to go by :S). And frankly, it's never struck me as an issue under the umbrella of xhild protection. How far does policing it become our job and not that of a parent? It's a difficult decision... especially when browser-based content filters are prevelant and easy to set up. I've always said; we should educate our users about how to install and use content filters, as this will benefit them outside WP too! So then, on the flip side of your comment here you have the global issue of objectionable images. This is a much broader issue that the narrow one you're focusing on here. For example, one of the main (and by main I mean constant and persistent, beyond any complaints of porn!) complaints we see relate to images of the prophet mohammed. How do you, then, feel about Commons hosting images like that? One of the tenets of the projects are that they are not censored, which I think is a good thing. However, we've not yet struck a balance between displaying everything and filtering things an individual doesn't want to see. I like the Mohammed example because it emphasises the problem where those of us who are not Muslim find a subset of images perfectly okay, but a Muslim might not. Since I don't have enough experience with the community and WP yet to discuss controversial topics myself, I will not chime in unless the thread has very obviously gone off topic. Just to pick an arbitrary about of time that is more than the few months that others have mentioned here, let's say that you can only participate in this discussion if you have at least one year of experience as an active contributor. I'm not sure what purpose it serves to bring up controversial topics, in this forum, with an express note that you have nothing new to bring? ;) Not to be too critical; but do you imagine that these issues aren't being discussed on the various projects - hopefully with incremental improvement each time. Or that individuals here are not aware of them? More than anything though, I'm sure you're an experienced internet chap - what did you expect to recieve in stirring up two relatively ingrained sides? It wasn't very deft, I have to observe :) One thing it might be important to communicate is that whilst this list is useful for global discussion, it's not a venue that any agreement or consensus is reached. So these discussions are really best conducted on-wiki. I'm not sure if you've actually attempted to open such topics on any of the projects, but the discussion you appear to be looking for can really only happen there (rather than here, or IRC, for example). Regards, Tom ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe:
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Dear Lila, I think many of us are interested in how you will engage with the Wikimedia community, what kind of outcomes you will seek, and what kind of tactics you will employ in seeking those outcomes. Can you please clarify whether you believe it is possible for somebody with a close connection to you to influence public perceptions in disproportionate, and significant, ways? If so, do you consider it a legitimate option for you to (privately) assert your right to establish yourself in your new position, rather than letting them take the lead? I think what has happened in the last few days is extraordinary. I've never seen anything like it. While I am sure that Wil's intentions are good, frankly, if his desire had been to sabotage your new job, I can't imagine what more effective path he could have chosen. I'm not sure if this link has any meaning to you, as you are still getting to know the various people and dynamics in the community. But I wonder what others think of it. Does anybody know if the following quote is accurate? And regardless of whether it's accurate or not -- the events of the last week have certainly made it seem plausible, haven't they? Is this really the best way for the new Executive Director to be introduced to the Wikimedia community and the world? - *Wikipedia is lucky to have people like Greg [Kohs]; even if he never directly contributes to WP going forward, we're all well aware that he's a very intelligent and eloquent individual with a knack for investigative reporting. He holds WP and the WMF to their word, and I personally thank him for that.* - *Wil Sinclair*, Partner of Lila Tretikov (Wikimedia Foundation executive director) - May 22, 2014 http://mywikibiz.com/index.php?title=Directory%3AGregory_J._Kohsdiff=463158oldid=462896#Cheers -Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:34 AM, Lila Tretikov l...@wikimedia.org wrote: Hi all, This is a personal note to clarify a some questions that recently came up, specifically in the context of my role as the incoming ED. My partner Wil and I are partners in our private lives. We have always both been extremely independent, and we respect that in each other. That said we have different roles: I am the Executive Director with responsibilities towards the Foundation and the movement, and he is an independent community member with his own voice. I make my decisions using my own professional judgement in conjunction with input from the community and staff. I don’t consult Wil on these matters, ask him to do anything on my behalf or monitor his engagements with the community. When I speak here, it is in my capacity as an ED. Wil, on the other hand, has a very strong personal interest in the community and agreat deal of curiosity about how the Wikimedia projectswork. It is very important to him that he remains an independent individual able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF employees. I hope this addresses some of the questions and draws distinction between my role as ED and Wil’s participation as an independent member. If you have any questions for Wil you can reach him directly. If you have any questions for me or the WMF, you can get a hold of me by email or on my talk page. Thanks, Lila ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
On 28 May 2014 22:57, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: ... Is this really the best way for the new Executive Director to be introduced to the Wikimedia community and the world? - *Wikipedia is lucky to have people like Greg [Kohs]; even if he never directly contributes to WP going forward, we're all well aware that he's a very intelligent and eloquent individual with a knack for investigative reporting. He holds WP and the WMF to their word, and I personally thank him for that.* - *Wil Sinclair*, Partner of Lila Tretikov (Wikimedia Foundation executive director) - May 22, 2014 Thanks for highlighting this Pete, I had no idea that Wil wrote this (unless someone is spoofing him). Lila, you need to explain what game is being played here. Perhaps you intend to shock the established community? You succeeded. Fae -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
First off, I said that about Greg, and I firmly believe it. He's uncovered many controversies at Wikipedia. In fact, his article was the first to be critical of Lila's appointment, and- save the rather petty comment about airline fees at the end- was pretty on-point. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything Greg says, just that I personally am glad someone is saying it. He added *Wil Sinclair*, Partner of Lila Tretikov (Wikimedia Foundation executive director); I'd prefer he just leave it at Wil Sinclair, but it's really his call on what he puts on his own site. Now, I don't know what Lila thinks of this- and I don't want to know- but I would really like to understand if there is a chance for any leader to change the concerning aspects of the WP community at this point. I know that if there is, it's likely to be a very strong, charismatic leader like Lila. But if there isn't, then so be it and it's better to know now. And I'm pretty sure that if the community here wants positive change, it has to be ready to talk about the hard problems- no matter who brings them up. Whatever happens, Lila is going to land on her feet; no one need worry about her. But, again, that's all just my opinion. I know you didn't ask me for a response, but this mail is all about me so I felt justified chiming in. Thanks for (intentionally) taking it to the list this time. :) ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Lila, I think many of us are interested in how you will engage with the Wikimedia community, what kind of outcomes you will seek, and what kind of tactics you will employ in seeking those outcomes. Can you please clarify whether you believe it is possible for somebody with a close connection to you to influence public perceptions in disproportionate, and significant, ways? If so, do you consider it a legitimate option for you to (privately) assert your right to establish yourself in your new position, rather than letting them take the lead? I think what has happened in the last few days is extraordinary. I've never seen anything like it. While I am sure that Wil's intentions are good, frankly, if his desire had been to sabotage your new job, I can't imagine what more effective path he could have chosen. I'm not sure if this link has any meaning to you, as you are still getting to know the various people and dynamics in the community. But I wonder what others think of it. Does anybody know if the following quote is accurate? And regardless of whether it's accurate or not -- the events of the last week have certainly made it seem plausible, haven't they? Is this really the best way for the new Executive Director to be introduced to the Wikimedia community and the world? - *Wikipedia is lucky to have people like Greg [Kohs]; even if he never directly contributes to WP going forward, we're all well aware that he's a very intelligent and eloquent individual with a knack for investigative reporting. He holds WP and the WMF to their word, and I personally thank him for that.* - *Wil Sinclair*, Partner of Lila Tretikov (Wikimedia Foundation executive director) - May 22, 2014 http://mywikibiz.com/index.php?title=Directory%3AGregory_J._Kohsdiff=463158oldid=462896#Cheers -Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:34 AM, Lila Tretikov l...@wikimedia.org wrote: Hi all, This is a personal note to clarify a some questions that recently came up, specifically in the context of my role as the incoming ED. My partner Wil and I are partners in our private lives. We have always both been extremely independent, and we respect that in each other. That said we have different roles: I am the Executive Director with responsibilities towards the Foundation and the movement, and he is an independent community member with his own voice. I make my decisions using my own professional judgement in conjunction with input from the community and staff. I don’t consult Wil on these matters, ask him to do anything on my behalf or monitor his engagements with the community. When I speak here, it is in my capacity as an ED. Wil, on the other hand, has a very strong personal interest in the community and agreat deal of curiosity about how the Wikimedia projectswork. It is very important to him that he remains an independent individual able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF employees. I hope this addresses some of the questions and draws distinction between my role as ED and Wil’s participation as an independent member. If you have any questions for Wil you can reach him directly. If you have any questions for me or the WMF, you can get a hold of me by email or on my talk page. Thanks, Lila ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
Re: [Wikimedia-l] The first three weeks.
Thank you, Risker -- we do have lots of work to do :) On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 1:33 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote: It is great to hear how you are working to learn about the vast Wikimedia community, its projects, its priorities and its challenges, Lila. I'm thinking there's something else that all of us should help you celebrate as well: after only a few weeks on the job, being named to the Forbes list of the 100 most powerful women: http://www.forbes.com/profile/lila-tretikov/ That's a great start. Risker On 28 May 2014 08:58, Anna Torres a...@wikimedia.org.ar wrote: +1 Great to hearing your experience. As being a new ED too (3 months now) I can indentify myself with your experience: the first month is about listening and getting to know :) All the best for what is to come! Hope to meeting you asap! Hugs from Argentina. 2014-05-28 2:48 GMT-03:00 Nurunnaby Chowdhury n...@nhasive.com: +1 Thank you for this write-up. Happy to read..:) On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 7:24 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Lila Tretikov wrote: I wanted to give you an update on my first three weeks of Wikimedia immersion -- this will also go on the blog. As you probably noticed, my leadership approach is rooted in observation and focused discussions -- this means I watch and listen more than I talk. But I expect that you are probably curious about what I have observed and learned so far, and to know a little more about who I am. [...] Thank you for this write-up. It was nice to read. :-) Your recommendations on areas you see as priorities for development (while keeping in mind that not everything can be a priority at once!); [...] I think this continues to be a huge pain point. Developer resources are scarce and expensive and there's often a feeling that the latest Wikimedia Foundation initiatives trump all other worthwhile projects. I think we need to find a better way to more fairly allocate resources. As a concrete example, there continue to be dozens of Wikimedia Foundation developers and other staff specifically focused on the English Wikipedia and sometimes Wikimedia Commons, while the other sister projects such as Wiktionary, Wikibooks, and Wikisource continue to receive almost no direct attention. (Over the past few years, even the term sister projects has become mildly insulting. These projects are more accurately the red-headed stepchild projects.) This won't happen quickly, but we must make it a goal to do better in this area. MZMcBride ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- *Nurunnaby Chowdhury Hasive* Administrator | Bengali Wikipedia http://bn.wikipedia.org/wiki/user:nhasive Member | IEG Committee, Wikimedia Foundationhttps://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/People Social Media Interaction Expert | The Daily Prothom-Alohttp://www.prothom-alo.com Bangladesh Ambassador | Open Knowledge Foundation Network http://www.okfn.org Treasurer | Bangladesh Open Source Network (BdOSN) http://www.bdosn.org Task Force Member | Mozilla Bangladesh http://www.mozillabd.org fb.com/nhasive | @nhasive http://www.twitter.com/nhasive | Skype: nhasive | www.nhasive.com ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- Anna Torres Adell Directora Ejecutiva *A.C Wikimedia Argentina* *Imprime este correo solo si es realmente necesario* ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/guidelineswikimedi...@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Wil, you are supporting a man that thought it was a hilarious joke to call me a faggot. Not something that I am prepared to overlook, ever. I now have serious reservations about Lila's good judgement in failing to ensure you were appropriately advised, considering her critical role in the Wikimedia movement. Fae On 28 May 2014 23:18, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: First off, I said that about Greg, and I firmly believe it. He's uncovered many controversies at Wikipedia. In fact, his article was the first to be critical of Lila's appointment, and- save the rather petty comment about airline fees at the end- was pretty on-point. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything Greg says, just that I personally am glad someone is saying it. He added *Wil Sinclair*, Partner of Lila Tretikov (Wikimedia Foundation executive director); I'd prefer he just leave it at Wil Sinclair, but it's really his call on what he puts on his own site. Now, I don't know what Lila thinks of this- and I don't want to know- but I would really like to understand if there is a chance for any leader to change the concerning aspects of the WP community at this point. I know that if there is, it's likely to be a very strong, charismatic leader like Lila. But if there isn't, then so be it and it's better to know now. And I'm pretty sure that if the community here wants positive change, it has to be ready to talk about the hard problems- no matter who brings them up. Whatever happens, Lila is going to land on her feet; no one need worry about her. But, again, that's all just my opinion. I know you didn't ask me for a response, but this mail is all about me so I felt justified chiming in. Thanks for (intentionally) taking it to the list this time. :) ,Wil -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] 2015 strategic plan
I don't think that it's meant to imply that the entire next strategic plan will focus on agility, only that one of our strategic priorities is likely to be building a greater capacity to rapidly react to unexpected developments than we've had in the past. So - reacting quickly and accurately when necessary as a priority, but certainly not the whole plan. (I can't speak for WMF, but I'd be pretty surprised if they intended their whole plan to focus on agility.) Best, Kevin Gorman On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:45 AM, rupert THURNER rupert.thur...@gmail.comwrote: Am 28.05.2014 09:31 schrieb ENWP Pine deyntest...@hotmail.com: Hi, can someone with knowledge of WMF's thinking expand on this statement from Lila? Starting the process for our next strategic planning exercise, which will be different from last time, and focused on improving our ability to react quickly and adjust as necessary to opportunities and challenges. Is this implying that the entire strategic plan will focus on agility, or that agility will be a priority in the next strategic plan? _that_ is a real pleasure to hear ... and if the basic principles are set and with them it is assured no quick jumping left, jumping right happens before things get a chance to properly mature it would be even more pleasure. Rupert ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Wil, we talked about this on IRC, so I won't repeat what I said. But what I did *not* say is that the foundation tends to let the community do what it wants, and it would be against that long-standing tradition for staff to try to force a change in the community. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: First off, I said that about Greg, and I firmly believe it. He's uncovered many controversies at Wikipedia. In fact, his article was the first to be critical of Lila's appointment, and- save the rather petty comment about airline fees at the end- was pretty on-point. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything Greg says, just that I personally am glad someone is saying it. He added *Wil Sinclair*, Partner of Lila Tretikov (Wikimedia Foundation executive director); I'd prefer he just leave it at Wil Sinclair, but it's really his call on what he puts on his own site. Now, I don't know what Lila thinks of this- and I don't want to know- but I would really like to understand if there is a chance for any leader to change the concerning aspects of the WP community at this point. I know that if there is, it's likely to be a very strong, charismatic leader like Lila. But if there isn't, then so be it and it's better to know now. And I'm pretty sure that if the community here wants positive change, it has to be ready to talk about the hard problems- no matter who brings them up. Whatever happens, Lila is going to land on her feet; no one need worry about her. But, again, that's all just my opinion. I know you didn't ask me for a response, but this mail is all about me so I felt justified chiming in. Thanks for (intentionally) taking it to the list this time. :) ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Lila, I think many of us are interested in how you will engage with the Wikimedia community, what kind of outcomes you will seek, and what kind of tactics you will employ in seeking those outcomes. Can you please clarify whether you believe it is possible for somebody with a close connection to you to influence public perceptions in disproportionate, and significant, ways? If so, do you consider it a legitimate option for you to (privately) assert your right to establish yourself in your new position, rather than letting them take the lead? I think what has happened in the last few days is extraordinary. I've never seen anything like it. While I am sure that Wil's intentions are good, frankly, if his desire had been to sabotage your new job, I can't imagine what more effective path he could have chosen. I'm not sure if this link has any meaning to you, as you are still getting to know the various people and dynamics in the community. But I wonder what others think of it. Does anybody know if the following quote is accurate? And regardless of whether it's accurate or not -- the events of the last week have certainly made it seem plausible, haven't they? Is this really the best way for the new Executive Director to be introduced to the Wikimedia community and the world? - *Wikipedia is lucky to have people like Greg [Kohs]; even if he never directly contributes to WP going forward, we're all well aware that he's a very intelligent and eloquent individual with a knack for investigative reporting. He holds WP and the WMF to their word, and I personally thank him for that.* - *Wil Sinclair*, Partner of Lila Tretikov (Wikimedia Foundation executive director) - May 22, 2014 http://mywikibiz.com/index.php?title=Directory%3AGregory_J._Kohsdiff=463158oldid=462896#Cheers -Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:34 AM, Lila Tretikov l...@wikimedia.org wrote: Hi all, This is a personal note to clarify a some questions that recently came up, specifically in the context of my role as the incoming ED. My partner Wil and I are partners in our private lives. We have always both been extremely independent, and we respect that in each other. That said we have different roles: I am the Executive Director with responsibilities towards the Foundation and the movement, and he is an independent community member with his own voice. I make my decisions using my own professional judgement in conjunction with input from the community and staff. I don’t consult Wil on these matters, ask him to do anything on my behalf or monitor his engagements with the community. When I speak here, it is in my capacity as an ED. Wil, on the other hand, has a very strong personal interest in the community and agreat deal of curiosity about how the Wikimedia projectswork. It is very important to him that he remains an independent individual able to speak with his own voice and ask his own questions. He does not take direction from me. He will not work for the WMF or engage with the WMF
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Child Protection and Harassment Policy
Please raise and discuss questions about policy on meta. This is not the place. Regards, Thyge 2014-05-28 23:54 GMT+02:00 Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com: Sorry, the n00b has to step in with a couple of clarifications. :) I was asking about 2 separate issues, so no conflation there. Also I asked very carefully for *all* sides of the issues: Now, I'll just sit back and hear all sides of the story. All right, back on topic! :) ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 2:13 PM, Thomas Morton morton.tho...@googlemail.com wrote: Child Protection- I'd like to hear about ways that policy might be changed here to better protect children, especially given some of the content on Commons. I'd also like to hear about specific examples of content on Commons that a parent might not find appropriate for their children. Note that this is not a repeat of the discussion to understand what policies are in place, as I have already opened a specific thread for that. You seem to have conflated two items here... one is the idea of child protection, and the other is of objectionable items on commons. I don't think that in any way works. Our child protection policies are about protecting children when they interact online. This is a perennial problem for any internet site, as I am sure you know. We do have some policies that help a lot (for example, admins always err on the side of caution and delete personal details that underage editors post). We have avenues to report potential issues such as grooming. Could more be done? Yes, I've thought so; for example publicising the problem more. But is WP worse that other communities (note; not site) of similar size? Probably not. At least not in my experience (which, of course, is pretty extensive given my former job). Child protection from porn, etc.? I think it's well established that kids can come across porn anywhere (apparently, Facebook, if my cousins' activity on there are anything to go by :S). And frankly, it's never struck me as an issue under the umbrella of xhild protection. How far does policing it become our job and not that of a parent? It's a difficult decision... especially when browser-based content filters are prevelant and easy to set up. I've always said; we should educate our users about how to install and use content filters, as this will benefit them outside WP too! So then, on the flip side of your comment here you have the global issue of objectionable images. This is a much broader issue that the narrow one you're focusing on here. For example, one of the main (and by main I mean constant and persistent, beyond any complaints of porn!) complaints we see relate to images of the prophet mohammed. How do you, then, feel about Commons hosting images like that? One of the tenets of the projects are that they are not censored, which I think is a good thing. However, we've not yet struck a balance between displaying everything and filtering things an individual doesn't want to see. I like the Mohammed example because it emphasises the problem where those of us who are not Muslim find a subset of images perfectly okay, but a Muslim might not. Since I don't have enough experience with the community and WP yet to discuss controversial topics myself, I will not chime in unless the thread has very obviously gone off topic. Just to pick an arbitrary about of time that is more than the few months that others have mentioned here, let's say that you can only participate in this discussion if you have at least one year of experience as an active contributor. I'm not sure what purpose it serves to bring up controversial topics, in this forum, with an express note that you have nothing new to bring? ;) Not to be too critical; but do you imagine that these issues aren't being discussed on the various projects - hopefully with incremental improvement each time. Or that individuals here are not aware of them? More than anything though, I'm sure you're an experienced internet chap - what did you expect to recieve in stirring up two relatively ingrained sides? It wasn't very deft, I have to observe :) One thing it might be important to communicate is that whilst this list is useful for global discussion, it's not a venue that any agreement or consensus is reached. So these discussions are really best conducted on-wiki. I'm not sure if you've actually attempted to open such topics on any of the projects, but the discussion you appear to be looking for can really only happen there (rather than here, or IRC, for example). Regards, Tom ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
I thought she did explain it. I act on my own behalf. I'm not introducing Lila to anyone for any purpose. Man, I am getting tired of writing that, and I can imagine that you're tired of reading it. We've both already answered this question. Everything I said about Greg there is true in *my* opinion, and I think this is probably the most clear-cut attempt at guilt by association I've ever witnessed online. But whatever- I said, you spread it. Thanks for getting my perspective out there. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:19 PM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: On 28 May 2014 22:57, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: ... Is this really the best way for the new Executive Director to be introduced to the Wikimedia community and the world? - *Wikipedia is lucky to have people like Greg [Kohs]; even if he never directly contributes to WP going forward, we're all well aware that he's a very intelligent and eloquent individual with a knack for investigative reporting. He holds WP and the WMF to their word, and I personally thank him for that.* - *Wil Sinclair*, Partner of Lila Tretikov (Wikimedia Foundation executive director) - May 22, 2014 Thanks for highlighting this Pete, I had no idea that Wil wrote this (unless someone is spoofing him). Lila, you need to explain what game is being played here. Perhaps you intend to shock the established community? You succeeded. Fae -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
I didn't know that he called you a faggot. Could you please show me where? I mentioned I didn't agree with him on everything. I certainly would *never* agree that a slur like that is justified, if he did make it. In any case, the quote stands. Maybe we should start a separate thread on the quote itself? ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: Wil, you are supporting a man that thought it was a hilarious joke to call me a faggot. Not something that I am prepared to overlook, ever. I now have serious reservations about Lila's good judgement in failing to ensure you were appropriately advised, considering her critical role in the Wikimedia movement. Fae On 28 May 2014 23:18, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: First off, I said that about Greg, and I firmly believe it. He's uncovered many controversies at Wikipedia. In fact, his article was the first to be critical of Lila's appointment, and- save the rather petty comment about airline fees at the end- was pretty on-point. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything Greg says, just that I personally am glad someone is saying it. He added *Wil Sinclair*, Partner of Lila Tretikov (Wikimedia Foundation executive director); I'd prefer he just leave it at Wil Sinclair, but it's really his call on what he puts on his own site. Now, I don't know what Lila thinks of this- and I don't want to know- but I would really like to understand if there is a chance for any leader to change the concerning aspects of the WP community at this point. I know that if there is, it's likely to be a very strong, charismatic leader like Lila. But if there isn't, then so be it and it's better to know now. And I'm pretty sure that if the community here wants positive change, it has to be ready to talk about the hard problems- no matter who brings them up. Whatever happens, Lila is going to land on her feet; no one need worry about her. But, again, that's all just my opinion. I know you didn't ask me for a response, but this mail is all about me so I felt justified chiming in. Thanks for (intentionally) taking it to the list this time. :) ,Wil -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Child Protection and Harassment Policy
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:32 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Martijn asked me which things I thought that some people on this list don't want anyone to discuss, so here are the two examples that I'm most interested in: Child Protection- I'd like to hear about ways that policy might be changed here to better protect children, especially given some of the content on Commons. There is content on Wikipedia and on Commons, and probably on other projects as well, that most probably doesn't find suitable for children. What makes the matter worse is that some searches that one doesn't expect to bring up sexually explicit content do in fact bring it up, i.e. the famous toothbrush image. There are a couple of separate questions. * Is the presence of sexually explicit material on commons a problem? Why? * Is the abundance of sexually explicit material on commons a problem? Why? * Is the unexpectedly turning up of the sexually explicit material on commons a problem? Why? Most agree that the presence of sexually explicit material on commons in itself is not a problem in itself, and if it is, hosting some educational material on sexually explicit subjects is more important than shielding children from accessing the material. The abundance of sexually explicit material on commons is odd, and probably worthless. We frankly don't need any more low quality pictures and videos of penises, masturbation, and other sexual acts that we already have lots of. Does it really hurt us to have so much of it though? As long as it doesn't get in the way, I'd say no. I'm not a commons person, and I know that loads of low quality redundant sexually explicit images have already been deleted - because it does get in the way. Should more be deleted? Likely. Should all of it be deleted? No. So what should we do? On each upload ask if it is a low quality sexually explicit image that doesn't really add anything to the content that's already there? That makes for an odd upload form. Ask those uploading not to upload more? I do believe we're already doing that, to little effect. (correct me if I'm wrong, if we're not, we probably should) But again, it's not it's presence that's a problem, it's its in-the-wayness. It has been argued, and I agree with that, that there are two categories of people finding sexually explicit material in commons. Those explicitly trying to find it, and those that come across it by accident. This goes for all age groups. I think it's fairly reasonable to say that those looking for it will find it no matter what, and that shouldn't be the focus of improvement. What should be a focus, is improving the search functionality so that the accidental doesn't happen, or at least doesn't happen so ridiculously often as it does now: that is what I mean with it being in the way, as demonstrated by the famous toothbrush search result. Categorization and tagging could play a large role in this, as well as (recently implemented) improvements in the search back-end. It's something that has recently been brought up on this list. I'm horrible with the archives, but I'm sure someone else will be able to point to the relevant discussion, and what, if anything, has been undertaken on commons to act on this, or what blockers we still have. Now I've focused only on sexually explicit content, because that's whats mostly what bothers people. Obviously, there is lots of other material I wouldn't like to expose children to. There has been a recent discussion about (valuable, suitable, and greatly disturbing) video material of WWII concentration camps being on the front page of commons. There is also a lot of images of medical issues that aren't the nicest to look at to put it mildly, and there is a lot of material on the atrocities of war as well. The first and third arguments go for this as well. These problems are discussed frequently and have been quite recently. We haven't found and implemented a solution though. What I can say is that the 'objectional images on commons' subject is a frequent subject for this mailinglist. It's not that we don't want anyone to discuss it, but more that we discuss it all the time, would love to fix it, and haven't been able yet. Which makes many a little annoyed with someone from the outside coming in with an 'hey, hey, what about all the dick pics on commons? Did you know about those?'. We know, we're all annoyed with it, not only because it makes us a just target of ridicule, but more importantly because we've went over it again and again, quite often and quite recently, and we haven't got an answer yet. The community has discussed the fairly obvious option - an image filter - at great length, and didn't find that an acceptable solution. I'd also like to hear about specific examples of content on Commons that a parent might not find appropriate for their children. lots and lots and lots. It's not hard to find. I've already touched on some subjects above, it should be easy to
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Wil, ask Kohs to repeat his filth. I'm not going to do it for him. Fae On 28 May 2014 23:37, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: I didn't know that he called you a faggot. Could you please show me where? I mentioned I didn't agree with him on everything. I certainly would *never* agree that a slur like that is justified, if he did make it. In any case, the quote stands. Maybe we should start a separate thread on the quote itself? ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: Wil, you are supporting a man that thought it was a hilarious joke to call me a faggot. Not something that I am prepared to overlook, ever. I now have serious reservations about Lila's good judgement in failing to ensure you were appropriately advised, considering her critical role in the Wikimedia movement. Fae On 28 May 2014 23:18, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: First off, I said that about Greg, and I firmly believe it. He's uncovered many controversies at Wikipedia. In fact, his article was the first to be critical of Lila's appointment, and- save the rather petty comment about airline fees at the end- was pretty on-point. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything Greg says, just that I personally am glad someone is saying it. He added *Wil Sinclair*, Partner of Lila Tretikov (Wikimedia Foundation executive director); I'd prefer he just leave it at Wil Sinclair, but it's really his call on what he puts on his own site. Now, I don't know what Lila thinks of this- and I don't want to know- but I would really like to understand if there is a chance for any leader to change the concerning aspects of the WP community at this point. I know that if there is, it's likely to be a very strong, charismatic leader like Lila. But if there isn't, then so be it and it's better to know now. And I'm pretty sure that if the community here wants positive change, it has to be ready to talk about the hard problems- no matter who brings them up. Whatever happens, Lila is going to land on her feet; no one need worry about her. But, again, that's all just my opinion. I know you didn't ask me for a response, but this mail is all about me so I felt justified chiming in. Thanks for (intentionally) taking it to the list this time. :) ,Wil -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Wil, Have you been introduced to Jimmy Wales yet? I'd be most interested for you to take your quote about Greg Kohs to Jimmy on his talk page (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Walesaction=editsection=new) and ask him if he would agree with you. Also, please note that here on wikimedia-l you are reaching only a small audience, you will likely get a wider audience at Jimmy's talk page, and therefore a wider variety of opinion. We'd then be most interested in hearing about your findings. Cheers, Russavia ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Yes, we did talk on IRC. But what are you referring to? I wasn't referring to you anywhere. I don't even remember talking about WMF's role in the community. I guess if you have a log of that part of the conversation, you should post it now. I may have a log in my own client, if you don't mind my posting it. I think it's becoming abundantly clear why I think it's best if I don't interact with WMF employees in private. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Jasper Deng jas...@jasperswebsite.com wrote: Wil, we talked about this on IRC, so I won't repeat what I said. But what I did *not* say is that the foundation tends to let the community do what it wants, and it would be against that long-standing tradition for staff to try to force a change in the community. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: First off, I said that about Greg, and I firmly believe it. He's uncovered many controversies at Wikipedia. In fact, his article was the first to be critical of Lila's appointment, and- save the rather petty comment about airline fees at the end- was pretty on-point. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything Greg says, just that I personally am glad someone is saying it. He added *Wil Sinclair*, Partner of Lila Tretikov (Wikimedia Foundation executive director); I'd prefer he just leave it at Wil Sinclair, but it's really his call on what he puts on his own site. Now, I don't know what Lila thinks of this- and I don't want to know- but I would really like to understand if there is a chance for any leader to change the concerning aspects of the WP community at this point. I know that if there is, it's likely to be a very strong, charismatic leader like Lila. But if there isn't, then so be it and it's better to know now. And I'm pretty sure that if the community here wants positive change, it has to be ready to talk about the hard problems- no matter who brings them up. Whatever happens, Lila is going to land on her feet; no one need worry about her. But, again, that's all just my opinion. I know you didn't ask me for a response, but this mail is all about me so I felt justified chiming in. Thanks for (intentionally) taking it to the list this time. :) ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Lila, I think many of us are interested in how you will engage with the Wikimedia community, what kind of outcomes you will seek, and what kind of tactics you will employ in seeking those outcomes. Can you please clarify whether you believe it is possible for somebody with a close connection to you to influence public perceptions in disproportionate, and significant, ways? If so, do you consider it a legitimate option for you to (privately) assert your right to establish yourself in your new position, rather than letting them take the lead? I think what has happened in the last few days is extraordinary. I've never seen anything like it. While I am sure that Wil's intentions are good, frankly, if his desire had been to sabotage your new job, I can't imagine what more effective path he could have chosen. I'm not sure if this link has any meaning to you, as you are still getting to know the various people and dynamics in the community. But I wonder what others think of it. Does anybody know if the following quote is accurate? And regardless of whether it's accurate or not -- the events of the last week have certainly made it seem plausible, haven't they? Is this really the best way for the new Executive Director to be introduced to the Wikimedia community and the world? - *Wikipedia is lucky to have people like Greg [Kohs]; even if he never directly contributes to WP going forward, we're all well aware that he's a very intelligent and eloquent individual with a knack for investigative reporting. He holds WP and the WMF to their word, and I personally thank him for that.* - *Wil Sinclair*, Partner of Lila Tretikov (Wikimedia Foundation executive director) - May 22, 2014 http://mywikibiz.com/index.php?title=Directory%3AGregory_J._Kohsdiff=463158oldid=462896#Cheers -Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:34 AM, Lila Tretikov l...@wikimedia.org wrote: Hi all, This is a personal note to clarify a some questions that recently came up, specifically in the context of my role as the incoming ED. My partner Wil and I are partners in our private lives. We have always both been extremely independent, and we respect that in each other. That said we have different roles: I am the Executive Director with responsibilities towards the Foundation and the movement, and he is an independent community member with his own voice. I make my decisions using my own professional judgement in conjunction with input from the community and staff. I don’t consult Wil on these matters,
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
I mean, you referred to Lila as a potential source of change in the community's problems in your email right before mine on this thread. If you meant the community of the wikis, I'm just saying that it wouldn't really be kosher according to our current practices. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:42 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Yes, we did talk on IRC. But what are you referring to? I wasn't referring to you anywhere. I don't even remember talking about WMF's role in the community. I guess if you have a log of that part of the conversation, you should post it now. I may have a log in my own client, if you don't mind my posting it. I think it's becoming abundantly clear why I think it's best if I don't interact with WMF employees in private. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Jasper Deng jas...@jasperswebsite.com wrote: Wil, we talked about this on IRC, so I won't repeat what I said. But what I did *not* say is that the foundation tends to let the community do what it wants, and it would be against that long-standing tradition for staff to try to force a change in the community. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: First off, I said that about Greg, and I firmly believe it. He's uncovered many controversies at Wikipedia. In fact, his article was the first to be critical of Lila's appointment, and- save the rather petty comment about airline fees at the end- was pretty on-point. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything Greg says, just that I personally am glad someone is saying it. He added *Wil Sinclair*, Partner of Lila Tretikov (Wikimedia Foundation executive director); I'd prefer he just leave it at Wil Sinclair, but it's really his call on what he puts on his own site. Now, I don't know what Lila thinks of this- and I don't want to know- but I would really like to understand if there is a chance for any leader to change the concerning aspects of the WP community at this point. I know that if there is, it's likely to be a very strong, charismatic leader like Lila. But if there isn't, then so be it and it's better to know now. And I'm pretty sure that if the community here wants positive change, it has to be ready to talk about the hard problems- no matter who brings them up. Whatever happens, Lila is going to land on her feet; no one need worry about her. But, again, that's all just my opinion. I know you didn't ask me for a response, but this mail is all about me so I felt justified chiming in. Thanks for (intentionally) taking it to the list this time. :) ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Lila, I think many of us are interested in how you will engage with the Wikimedia community, what kind of outcomes you will seek, and what kind of tactics you will employ in seeking those outcomes. Can you please clarify whether you believe it is possible for somebody with a close connection to you to influence public perceptions in disproportionate, and significant, ways? If so, do you consider it a legitimate option for you to (privately) assert your right to establish yourself in your new position, rather than letting them take the lead? I think what has happened in the last few days is extraordinary. I've never seen anything like it. While I am sure that Wil's intentions are good, frankly, if his desire had been to sabotage your new job, I can't imagine what more effective path he could have chosen. I'm not sure if this link has any meaning to you, as you are still getting to know the various people and dynamics in the community. But I wonder what others think of it. Does anybody know if the following quote is accurate? And regardless of whether it's accurate or not -- the events of the last week have certainly made it seem plausible, haven't they? Is this really the best way for the new Executive Director to be introduced to the Wikimedia community and the world? - *Wikipedia is lucky to have people like Greg [Kohs]; even if he never directly contributes to WP going forward, we're all well aware that he's a very intelligent and eloquent individual with a knack for investigative reporting. He holds WP and the WMF to their word, and I personally thank him for that.* - *Wil Sinclair*, Partner of Lila Tretikov (Wikimedia Foundation executive director) - May 22, 2014 http://mywikibiz.com/index.php?title=Directory%3AGregory_J._Kohsdiff=463158oldid=462896#Cheers -Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:34 AM, Lila Tretikov l...@wikimedia.org wrote: Hi all, This is a personal note to clarify a some questions that recently came up, specifically in the context of my role as the incoming ED. My partner Wil and I are partners in our private
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
All: I don't know the first thing about the alleged safety concerns discussed on IRC, but the following quote is troubling to me: On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: She replied a WMF employee emailed me that there are safety concerns, It seems that Wil has chosen to repeat something that was said privately, about personal safety, in a public forum. It seems likely to me that this kind of choice would tend to *increase* potential danger, not decrease it. I'd like to suggest that Wil's access to this email list be blocked, at least as a temporary measure. I think his behavior here has been reckless in a number of ways. This is no judgment on him as a person, but I do think we need to protect this list from further flooding. I don't know much about the precedents for list access removal, but I suspect that consensus among active Wikimedians would be pretty strong at this point. Can anybody comment on what would be necessary to make this happen? Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Greg, would you like to repeat your filth? He may need someone to post it in surrogate, since I believe he said he's banned here. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:38 PM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: Wil, ask Kohs to repeat his filth. I'm not going to do it for him. Fae On 28 May 2014 23:37, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: I didn't know that he called you a faggot. Could you please show me where? I mentioned I didn't agree with him on everything. I certainly would *never* agree that a slur like that is justified, if he did make it. In any case, the quote stands. Maybe we should start a separate thread on the quote itself? ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote: Wil, you are supporting a man that thought it was a hilarious joke to call me a faggot. Not something that I am prepared to overlook, ever. I now have serious reservations about Lila's good judgement in failing to ensure you were appropriately advised, considering her critical role in the Wikimedia movement. Fae On 28 May 2014 23:18, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: First off, I said that about Greg, and I firmly believe it. He's uncovered many controversies at Wikipedia. In fact, his article was the first to be critical of Lila's appointment, and- save the rather petty comment about airline fees at the end- was pretty on-point. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything Greg says, just that I personally am glad someone is saying it. He added *Wil Sinclair*, Partner of Lila Tretikov (Wikimedia Foundation executive director); I'd prefer he just leave it at Wil Sinclair, but it's really his call on what he puts on his own site. Now, I don't know what Lila thinks of this- and I don't want to know- but I would really like to understand if there is a chance for any leader to change the concerning aspects of the WP community at this point. I know that if there is, it's likely to be a very strong, charismatic leader like Lila. But if there isn't, then so be it and it's better to know now. And I'm pretty sure that if the community here wants positive change, it has to be ready to talk about the hard problems- no matter who brings them up. Whatever happens, Lila is going to land on her feet; no one need worry about her. But, again, that's all just my opinion. I know you didn't ask me for a response, but this mail is all about me so I felt justified chiming in. Thanks for (intentionally) taking it to the list this time. :) ,Wil -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe -- fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae Personal and confidential, please do not circulate or re-quote. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
You *can't* be serious. Now I'm *really* starting to get the idea that you guys just want to shut me up. And you're using the fact that I'm actually being very open about something to justify it. This is extremely worrying if everyone else on this list agrees with you. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: l: I don't know the first thing about the alleged safety concerns discussed on IRC, but the following quote is troubling to me: On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: She replied a WMF employee emailed me that there are safety concerns, It seems that Wil has chosen to repeat something that was said privately, about personal safety, in a public forum. It seems likely to me that this kind of choice would tend to *increase* potential danger, not decrease it. I'd like to suggest that Wil's access to this email list be blocked, at least as a temporary measure. I think his behavior here has been reckless in a number of ways. This is no judgment on him as a person, but I do think we need to protect this list from further flooding. I don't know much about the precedents for list access removal, but I suspect that consensus among active Wikimedians would be pretty strong at this point. Can anybody comment on what would be necessary to make this happen? Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Someone already mentioned me on his talk page, and I responded. Please do paste that quote there if you think he'd be interested in it. I know he and Greg have disagreed in the past; he may offer me a different perspective on the matter. I'm interested in everyone's perspective. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:41 PM, Russavia russavia.wikipe...@gmail.com wrote: Wil, Have you been introduced to Jimmy Wales yet? I'd be most interested for you to take your quote about Greg Kohs to Jimmy on his talk page (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Walesaction=editsection=new) and ask him if he would agree with you. Also, please note that here on wikimedia-l you are reaching only a small audience, you will likely get a wider audience at Jimmy's talk page, and therefore a wider variety of opinion. We'd then be most interested in hearing about your findings. Cheers, Russavia ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
... I wish I kept more up to date on this set of threads and had stepped in to say something sooner. I'm going to go ahead and say that I agree with Pete that at this juncture the most beneficial course of action would probably be for Wil to back this set of discussions for at least a few days, if necessary even by putting Wil on temporary moderation as bizarre as that sounds. Wil: I'm going to type a private email after I send this to you, and I promise the last thing I desire is to shut you up - you're just currently running through a minefield with no map, and it would be much better if you had a map before continuing. Kevin Gorman On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: You *can't* be serious. Now I'm *really* starting to get the idea that you guys just want to shut me up. And you're using the fact that I'm actually being very open about something to justify it. This is extremely worrying if everyone else on this list agrees with you. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: l: I don't know the first thing about the alleged safety concerns discussed on IRC, but the following quote is troubling to me: On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: She replied a WMF employee emailed me that there are safety concerns, It seems that Wil has chosen to repeat something that was said privately, about personal safety, in a public forum. It seems likely to me that this kind of choice would tend to *increase* potential danger, not decrease it. I'd like to suggest that Wil's access to this email list be blocked, at least as a temporary measure. I think his behavior here has been reckless in a number of ways. This is no judgment on him as a person, but I do think we need to protect this list from further flooding. I don't know much about the precedents for list access removal, but I suspect that consensus among active Wikimedians would be pretty strong at this point. Can anybody comment on what would be necessary to make this happen? Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: This is no judgment on him as a person, but I do think we need to protect this list from further flooding. As a reminder, this list has an official soft limit of 30 posts per individual/month, as stated on https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l . It's encouraged for participants to stay below this limit in order for the conversation(s) not to be dominated by a single participant. In a listserv context, this is especially important, because it's a push medium that gets delivered directly to people's inboxes (contrary to a web forum), in some cases without filters. By my count, Wil has posted to this list 50 times this month, which is a bit excessive. Wil: I would encourage you to respect the norms of this list and refrain from excessive posting. I don't see an issue with any of the _topics_ you're wanting to talk about, just the volume/frequency at which you've been doing it. Cheers, Erik -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
I didn't really mention anything specifically, except a leader who could change the concerning aspects of the WP community. It has been WMF's stated goal to change things like the participation of women on WP for years. I suppose it would be most accurate to say that I meant the things that the WMF has been very publicly trying to change about the community and WP for years now. I believe these goals are shared by Lila, but we haven't really discussed them. You know, that's strange. Everything you guys are adding to this thread could be used to discredit me in the eyes of various parts of the community. I really hope that isn't the case, but it wouldn't change my behavior if it were. I encourage everyone to read these threads and make up their minds for themselves. Keep in mind that some of the characterizations of what people have said haven't been substantiated yet. Maybe some more evidence will come to light on this thread. Thanks. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:44 PM, Jasper Deng jas...@jasperswebsite.com wrote: I mean, you referred to Lila as a potential source of change in the community's problems in your email right before mine on this thread. If you meant the community of the wikis, I'm just saying that it wouldn't really be kosher according to our current practices. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:42 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Yes, we did talk on IRC. But what are you referring to? I wasn't referring to you anywhere. I don't even remember talking about WMF's role in the community. I guess if you have a log of that part of the conversation, you should post it now. I may have a log in my own client, if you don't mind my posting it. I think it's becoming abundantly clear why I think it's best if I don't interact with WMF employees in private. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Jasper Deng jas...@jasperswebsite.com wrote: Wil, we talked about this on IRC, so I won't repeat what I said. But what I did *not* say is that the foundation tends to let the community do what it wants, and it would be against that long-standing tradition for staff to try to force a change in the community. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: First off, I said that about Greg, and I firmly believe it. He's uncovered many controversies at Wikipedia. In fact, his article was the first to be critical of Lila's appointment, and- save the rather petty comment about airline fees at the end- was pretty on-point. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything Greg says, just that I personally am glad someone is saying it. He added *Wil Sinclair*, Partner of Lila Tretikov (Wikimedia Foundation executive director); I'd prefer he just leave it at Wil Sinclair, but it's really his call on what he puts on his own site. Now, I don't know what Lila thinks of this- and I don't want to know- but I would really like to understand if there is a chance for any leader to change the concerning aspects of the WP community at this point. I know that if there is, it's likely to be a very strong, charismatic leader like Lila. But if there isn't, then so be it and it's better to know now. And I'm pretty sure that if the community here wants positive change, it has to be ready to talk about the hard problems- no matter who brings them up. Whatever happens, Lila is going to land on her feet; no one need worry about her. But, again, that's all just my opinion. I know you didn't ask me for a response, but this mail is all about me so I felt justified chiming in. Thanks for (intentionally) taking it to the list this time. :) ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Lila, I think many of us are interested in how you will engage with the Wikimedia community, what kind of outcomes you will seek, and what kind of tactics you will employ in seeking those outcomes. Can you please clarify whether you believe it is possible for somebody with a close connection to you to influence public perceptions in disproportionate, and significant, ways? If so, do you consider it a legitimate option for you to (privately) assert your right to establish yourself in your new position, rather than letting them take the lead? I think what has happened in the last few days is extraordinary. I've never seen anything like it. While I am sure that Wil's intentions are good, frankly, if his desire had been to sabotage your new job, I can't imagine what more effective path he could have chosen. I'm not sure if this link has any meaning to you, as you are still getting to know the various people and dynamics in the community. But I wonder what others think of it. Does anybody know if the following quote is accurate? And regardless of whether it's accurate or not -- the events of the last week have certainly made it seem plausible,
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Wil: nothing anyone is saying here is aimed at discrediting you, you've just jumped in to a field of landmines without a map, and we'd rather not have you blow your legs off. I'll have a private email incoming to you as fast as I can type it but given that the deputy director of the WMF and several respected Wikimedians have said things may be better if you back off a bit, it would probably good to extend us the trust necessary to give you a map of the field of landmines you've jumped in to. --- Kevin Gorman On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 4:06 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: I didn't really mention anything specifically, except a leader who could change the concerning aspects of the WP community. It has been WMF's stated goal to change things like the participation of women on WP for years. I suppose it would be most accurate to say that I meant the things that the WMF has been very publicly trying to change about the community and WP for years now. I believe these goals are shared by Lila, but we haven't really discussed them. You know, that's strange. Everything you guys are adding to this thread could be used to discredit me in the eyes of various parts of the community. I really hope that isn't the case, but it wouldn't change my behavior if it were. I encourage everyone to read these threads and make up their minds for themselves. Keep in mind that some of the characterizations of what people have said haven't been substantiated yet. Maybe some more evidence will come to light on this thread. Thanks. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:44 PM, Jasper Deng jas...@jasperswebsite.com wrote: I mean, you referred to Lila as a potential source of change in the community's problems in your email right before mine on this thread. If you meant the community of the wikis, I'm just saying that it wouldn't really be kosher according to our current practices. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:42 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Yes, we did talk on IRC. But what are you referring to? I wasn't referring to you anywhere. I don't even remember talking about WMF's role in the community. I guess if you have a log of that part of the conversation, you should post it now. I may have a log in my own client, if you don't mind my posting it. I think it's becoming abundantly clear why I think it's best if I don't interact with WMF employees in private. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:31 PM, Jasper Deng jas...@jasperswebsite.com wrote: Wil, we talked about this on IRC, so I won't repeat what I said. But what I did *not* say is that the foundation tends to let the community do what it wants, and it would be against that long-standing tradition for staff to try to force a change in the community. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:18 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: First off, I said that about Greg, and I firmly believe it. He's uncovered many controversies at Wikipedia. In fact, his article was the first to be critical of Lila's appointment, and- save the rather petty comment about airline fees at the end- was pretty on-point. That doesn't mean that I agree with everything Greg says, just that I personally am glad someone is saying it. He added *Wil Sinclair*, Partner of Lila Tretikov (Wikimedia Foundation executive director); I'd prefer he just leave it at Wil Sinclair, but it's really his call on what he puts on his own site. Now, I don't know what Lila thinks of this- and I don't want to know- but I would really like to understand if there is a chance for any leader to change the concerning aspects of the WP community at this point. I know that if there is, it's likely to be a very strong, charismatic leader like Lila. But if there isn't, then so be it and it's better to know now. And I'm pretty sure that if the community here wants positive change, it has to be ready to talk about the hard problems- no matter who brings them up. Whatever happens, Lila is going to land on her feet; no one need worry about her. But, again, that's all just my opinion. I know you didn't ask me for a response, but this mail is all about me so I felt justified chiming in. Thanks for (intentionally) taking it to the list this time. :) ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 2:57 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: Dear Lila, I think many of us are interested in how you will engage with the Wikimedia community, what kind of outcomes you will seek, and what kind of tactics you will employ in seeking those outcomes. Can you please clarify whether you believe it is possible for somebody with a close connection to you to influence public perceptions in disproportionate, and significant, ways? If so, do you consider it a legitimate option for you to (privately) assert your right to establish yourself in your new position,
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
If this list chooses to block me for any amount of time, it might as well be forever. I'm responding to other people's mails here; I'd prefer to mail less as well. In any case, you'll be blocking someone for asking relevant questions and replying to relevant concerns. I think that is pretty self-evident. If I do get blocked on this list, I will be taking my discussion to Wikipediocracy where I have never been so much as encouraged to be quiet beyond the matter I mentioned before, and anyone who is interested in it is welcome to join me there. This is getting *really* scary. Think about what you do in full sight of the entire community before you act, please. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:56 PM, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote: ... I wish I kept more up to date on this set of threads and had stepped in to say something sooner. I'm going to go ahead and say that I agree with Pete that at this juncture the most beneficial course of action would probably be for Wil to back this set of discussions for at least a few days, if necessary even by putting Wil on temporary moderation as bizarre as that sounds. Wil: I'm going to type a private email after I send this to you, and I promise the last thing I desire is to shut you up - you're just currently running through a minefield with no map, and it would be much better if you had a map before continuing. Kevin Gorman On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: You *can't* be serious. Now I'm *really* starting to get the idea that you guys just want to shut me up. And you're using the fact that I'm actually being very open about something to justify it. This is extremely worrying if everyone else on this list agrees with you. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: l: I don't know the first thing about the alleged safety concerns discussed on IRC, but the following quote is troubling to me: On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: She replied a WMF employee emailed me that there are safety concerns, It seems that Wil has chosen to repeat something that was said privately, about personal safety, in a public forum. It seems likely to me that this kind of choice would tend to *increase* potential danger, not decrease it. I'd like to suggest that Wil's access to this email list be blocked, at least as a temporary measure. I think his behavior here has been reckless in a number of ways. This is no judgment on him as a person, but I do think we need to protect this list from further flooding. I don't know much about the precedents for list access removal, but I suspect that consensus among active Wikimedians would be pretty strong at this point. Can anybody comment on what would be necessary to make this happen? Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Ive been watching this conversation and I have to agree with Will here. These calls for banning/restriction of access to the list and admission that Wikipedia is full of landmines is troubling. If we have such grave problems, we should be confronting them. If Will is just stirring the pot, ignore him and it will go away. From: w...@wllm.com Date: Wed, 28 May 2014 16:10:49 -0700 To: wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note. If this list chooses to block me for any amount of time, it might as well be forever. I'm responding to other people's mails here; I'd prefer to mail less as well. In any case, you'll be blocking someone for asking relevant questions and replying to relevant concerns. I think that is pretty self-evident. If I do get blocked on this list, I will be taking my discussion to Wikipediocracy where I have never been so much as encouraged to be quiet beyond the matter I mentioned before, and anyone who is interested in it is welcome to join me there. This is getting *really* scary. Think about what you do in full sight of the entire community before you act, please. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:56 PM, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote: ... I wish I kept more up to date on this set of threads and had stepped in to say something sooner. I'm going to go ahead and say that I agree with Pete that at this juncture the most beneficial course of action would probably be for Wil to back this set of discussions for at least a few days, if necessary even by putting Wil on temporary moderation as bizarre as that sounds. Wil: I'm going to type a private email after I send this to you, and I promise the last thing I desire is to shut you up - you're just currently running through a minefield with no map, and it would be much better if you had a map before continuing. Kevin Gorman On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:50 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: You *can't* be serious. Now I'm *really* starting to get the idea that you guys just want to shut me up. And you're using the fact that I'm actually being very open about something to justify it. This is extremely worrying if everyone else on this list agrees with you. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: l: I don't know the first thing about the alleged safety concerns discussed on IRC, but the following quote is troubling to me: On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 2:51 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: She replied a WMF employee emailed me that there are safety concerns, It seems that Wil has chosen to repeat something that was said privately, about personal safety, in a public forum. It seems likely to me that this kind of choice would tend to *increase* potential danger, not decrease it. I'd like to suggest that Wil's access to this email list be blocked, at least as a temporary measure. I think his behavior here has been reckless in a number of ways. This is no judgment on him as a person, but I do think we need to protect this list from further flooding. I don't know much about the precedents for list access removal, but I suspect that consensus among active Wikimedians would be pretty strong at this point. Can anybody comment on what would be necessary to make this happen? Pete [[User:Peteforsyth]] ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Hi Erik, just for guidance here- should I not publicly respond to those who have publicly address me or talked about my actions or words directly? You guys are moving in a *very* sketchy direction here. These mails are archived; it will be quite clear what everyone said before I was blocked if you decide to go that route. You are talking about very obviously censoring a person who has been saying inconvenient things in a high-profile manner. Is this the kind of Free Speech Wikipedia supposedly stands for? Seriously. I really want to know. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:56 PM, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: This is no judgment on him as a person, but I do think we need to protect this list from further flooding. As a reminder, this list has an official soft limit of 30 posts per individual/month, as stated on https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l . It's encouraged for participants to stay below this limit in order for the conversation(s) not to be dominated by a single participant. In a listserv context, this is especially important, because it's a push medium that gets delivered directly to people's inboxes (contrary to a web forum), in some cases without filters. By my count, Wil has posted to this list 50 times this month, which is a bit excessive. Wil: I would encourage you to respect the norms of this list and refrain from excessive posting. I don't see an issue with any of the _topics_ you're wanting to talk about, just the volume/frequency at which you've been doing it. Cheers, Erik -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
It turns out that Lila is actually a perfect ED. Someone capable to handle and love a person like Wil is -- should be quite competent in handling the rest of the community :D On May 29, 2014 1:21 AM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Hi Erik, just for guidance here- should I not publicly respond to those who have publicly address me or talked about my actions or words directly? You guys are moving in a *very* sketchy direction here. These mails are archived; it will be quite clear what everyone said before I was blocked if you decide to go that route. You are talking about very obviously censoring a person who has been saying inconvenient things in a high-profile manner. Is this the kind of Free Speech Wikipedia supposedly stands for? Seriously. I really want to know. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:56 PM, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:45 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: This is no judgment on him as a person, but I do think we need to protect this list from further flooding. As a reminder, this list has an official soft limit of 30 posts per individual/month, as stated on https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l . It's encouraged for participants to stay below this limit in order for the conversation(s) not to be dominated by a single participant. In a listserv context, this is especially important, because it's a push medium that gets delivered directly to people's inboxes (contrary to a web forum), in some cases without filters. By my count, Wil has posted to this list 50 times this month, which is a bit excessive. Wil: I would encourage you to respect the norms of this list and refrain from excessive posting. I don't see an issue with any of the _topics_ you're wanting to talk about, just the volume/frequency at which you've been doing it. Cheers, Erik -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
[Wikimedia-l] Blocking Wil from this List
I'm starting a thread with the correct title, so that everyone knows that we're discussing whether I should be banned and for what reasons. ,Wil ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Blocking Wil from this List
Wil I ask this as a serious, non-snarky question; have you stepped back for a second and thought about your actions here. Some responses have been a bit tough. But I don't think you've handled yourself at all well. Imagine, for example, I came into your place of work and started asking questions. Questions which at best are naive or worst leading. What if I immediately plunged into one of the most controversial topics of discussion, in a somewhat aloof tone, and revealed that I'd been talking to a news outlet who'd just run an in depth expose on your bosses sex life. What if my comments exposed that my research consisted entirely of what I had been fed from that outlet. What I'm saying is; this is a community which is established and often thoughful. For a web community it is quite welcoming to thoughtful new contributions. But unlike many web communities it's tolerance for bullshit is extremely low. We respond positively to things like reasoned arguments, or great contributions. We respond badly to oddly crafted explorations. Your opening email reads, and believe me we have years of them for training, like the typical flamebait. Remember as a community we face constant disruption and vandalism: and so our tools to deal with that, and move back onto content, are abrupt and harsh. As a regular and vocal critic myself, I think you've crossed the line in these threads into disruption. If you want to understand WM culture then the one and only way to do so is to become a member of the community. It's not simple or easy, it takes work to produce quality contributions. Looking from the outside will only get you so far. I hope you'll delve in and find not only the bad, but the excellent as well. Take that as you will. I hope it's useful. Unfortunately your comments about Kohs mean I find your judgement extremely lacking. I hope you'll be able to regain the respect youve so quickly lost here. Tom On 29 May 2014 00:25, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: I'm starting a thread with the correct title, so that everyone knows that we're discussing whether I should be banned and for what reasons. ,Wil ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 4:21 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Hi Erik, just for guidance here- should I not publicly respond to those who have publicly address me or talked about my actions or words directly? Hey Wil, Pick your battles, help keep the conversation manageable, exercise restraint, take social cues, assume good faith, forgive and forget. The 30 posts/month guideline is in place to help with that -- forcing yourself to simply slow down (not shut up) is a good way to exercise the aforementioned habits, which are good habits for any large group conversation in my experience. Warm regards, Erik -- Erik Möller VP of Engineering and Product Development, Wikimedia Foundation ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] 2015 strategic plan
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 12:31 AM, ENWP Pine deyntest...@hotmail.com wrote: Hi, can someone with knowledge of WMF's thinking expand on this statement from Lila? Starting the process for our next strategic planning exercise, which will be different from last time, and focused on improving our ability to react quickly and adjust as necessary to opportunities and challenges. Is this implying that the entire strategic plan will focus on agility, or that agility will be a priority in the next strategic plan? Also, how was this decision reached? This is a large topic. But quickly: I think the idea is that the next strategic plan, rather than being a document that tries to cover every possibility for what might happen, would be more useful if it recognized that things do and will change -- technologies, community dynamics, etc. -- and recognized that the organization and movement will need to adapt to those changes. (Think about how much has changed since 2009, when we started working on that plan.) So I guess I would call agility more of a design principle. But I don't want to either speak for Lila or for the WMF, because we simply haven't had those conversations yet with her, nor have we had them in the community. As noted in the last set of board minutes: https://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Minutes/2014-01-31#Strategy_discussion-- the board has mainly agreed that we are flexible with regard to the final shape of the plan, and will work with Lila on the process going forward. best, -- Phoebe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Child Protection and Harassment Policy
On May 29, 2014 5:33 AM, Thyge ltl.pri...@gmail.com wrote: Please raise and discuss questions about policy on meta. This is not the place. Regards, Thyge Wil, I suggest that you do go to http://meta.wikimedia.org and find pages about these issues. *Read the archives of the talk pages*. And start new discussions on those talk pages. Assume the 'meta' project has a discussion page for every issue you can think of. If you cant find something on meta, ask someone who is active on meta (check recent changes) Also read the archives of wikimedia-l for at least 2013 and 2014, to get a feel for this list, and to be aware of where we are 'at' on issues which are discussed every year. Then you can start new threads which pick up from where we left of last time. Keep in mind wikimedia-l is mandatory reading for a lot of very busy volunteers and NGO staff at all levels and who have varying levels of English proficiency. wikimedia-l doubles as an business forum for our many NGOs. Every email to this list has an opportunity cost. It is peoples time being consumed. -- John Vandenberg ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 11:37 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: I didn't know that he called you a faggot. Could you please show me where? That post was removed from view at the time (May 2012). http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=3707#p3707 What Greg had said on WO was, ---o0o--- It looks like *Fae got* upset with my post to his Talkhttp://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:F%C3%A6diff=nextoldid=70008600 page. ---o0o--- The diff Greg linked to was this one: https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:F%C3%A6diff=nextoldid=70008600 Greg apologised to Fæ for the post here: http://wikipediocracy.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4888#p4888 I would like to apologize to Ashley Fae Van Haeften for my recent word-play quip, Fae got upset. I had hoped that the poke would be received in the playful tone that it was intended, but I erred in that supposition. I don't mean any malice or harm to Ashley. I'm simply interested in the truth about his past and present actions on Wikipedia and determining whether or not he enjoys (or expects) a double standard to apply for him. ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] Child Protection and Harassment Policy
Stepping in to add another aspect to both questions, as I think it might focus the discussion. Child Protection: Are children encouraged to use commons through any programs or outreach efforts of any kind? If so, is it morally and/or ethically justifiable to do so without protecting children in every way possible? Can that be done without removing graphic pics from commons? Harassment: Has harassment been addressed in a comprehensive way on all sites, including all of the WP site? As an example, Wikipedia has had a problem with low and declining female participation for years, and the WMF has often stated that it would like to address it. Are women actively encouraged to participate on Wikipedia by the WMF or other organizations? If we're not doing everything to protect women and all other Wikipedians, is it morally or ethically correct to perform outreach to potentially vulnerable groups? I'd especially like to hear about this from a female perspective. Thanks. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:38 PM, Martijn Hoekstra martijnhoeks...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 10:32 PM, Wil Sinclair w...@wllm.com wrote: Martijn asked me which things I thought that some people on this list don't want anyone to discuss, so here are the two examples that I'm most interested in: Child Protection- I'd like to hear about ways that policy might be changed here to better protect children, especially given some of the content on Commons. There is content on Wikipedia and on Commons, and probably on other projects as well, that most probably doesn't find suitable for children. What makes the matter worse is that some searches that one doesn't expect to bring up sexually explicit content do in fact bring it up, i.e. the famous toothbrush image. There are a couple of separate questions. * Is the presence of sexually explicit material on commons a problem? Why? * Is the abundance of sexually explicit material on commons a problem? Why? * Is the unexpectedly turning up of the sexually explicit material on commons a problem? Why? Most agree that the presence of sexually explicit material on commons in itself is not a problem in itself, and if it is, hosting some educational material on sexually explicit subjects is more important than shielding children from accessing the material. The abundance of sexually explicit material on commons is odd, and probably worthless. We frankly don't need any more low quality pictures and videos of penises, masturbation, and other sexual acts that we already have lots of. Does it really hurt us to have so much of it though? As long as it doesn't get in the way, I'd say no. I'm not a commons person, and I know that loads of low quality redundant sexually explicit images have already been deleted - because it does get in the way. Should more be deleted? Likely. Should all of it be deleted? No. So what should we do? On each upload ask if it is a low quality sexually explicit image that doesn't really add anything to the content that's already there? That makes for an odd upload form. Ask those uploading not to upload more? I do believe we're already doing that, to little effect. (correct me if I'm wrong, if we're not, we probably should) But again, it's not it's presence that's a problem, it's its in-the-wayness. It has been argued, and I agree with that, that there are two categories of people finding sexually explicit material in commons. Those explicitly trying to find it, and those that come across it by accident. This goes for all age groups. I think it's fairly reasonable to say that those looking for it will find it no matter what, and that shouldn't be the focus of improvement. What should be a focus, is improving the search functionality so that the accidental doesn't happen, or at least doesn't happen so ridiculously often as it does now: that is what I mean with it being in the way, as demonstrated by the famous toothbrush search result. Categorization and tagging could play a large role in this, as well as (recently implemented) improvements in the search back-end. It's something that has recently been brought up on this list. I'm horrible with the archives, but I'm sure someone else will be able to point to the relevant discussion, and what, if anything, has been undertaken on commons to act on this, or what blockers we still have. Now I've focused only on sexually explicit content, because that's whats mostly what bothers people. Obviously, there is lots of other material I wouldn't like to expose children to. There has been a recent discussion about (valuable, suitable, and greatly disturbing) video material of WWII concentration camps being on the front page of commons. There is also a lot of images of medical issues that aren't the nicest to look at to put it mildly, and there is a lot of material on the atrocities of war as well. The first and third arguments go for this as well. These problems are
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Hello all, Lila: Thank you kindly for these recent notes. It is wonderful to hear your thoughts on your first weeks. Wil: Working through public, logged forums is a fine principle; one that I try to follow myself. It helps avoid misunderstandings. Pete Forsyth writes: I'd like to suggest that Wil's access to this email list be blocked, at least as a temporary measure... I suspect that consensus among active Wikimedians would be pretty strong at this point. Pete: That is a wholly uncalled for suggestion; reckless, if you would. Please be kind. As you can see from the comments of others, there is no such consensus, mainly just requests to slow down. Erik Moeller writes: As a reminder, this list has an official soft limit of 30 posts per [month] Wil Sinclair writes: just for guidance here- should I not publicly respond to those who have publicly address me or talked about my actions or words I find it helpful to quote and briefly respond to many posts of interest in a thread, in a single reply (as I did here). And I try to make 5 edits to a project for every post, to keep a balanced perspective... Sam (PS: Victor, the A. Dewey Wikireader Project always makes me smile. Thank you for mentioning it here. :-) ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
Re: [Wikimedia-l] A personal note.
Thanks for the note, Sam. Your advice to me is very wise. I've said and seen about all that I want to, save one more post. You'll see it in the next few minutes. ,Wil On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:46 PM, Samuel Klein meta...@gmail.com wrote: Hello all, Lila: Thank you kindly for these recent notes. It is wonderful to hear your thoughts on your first weeks. Wil: Working through public, logged forums is a fine principle; one that I try to follow myself. It helps avoid misunderstandings. Pete Forsyth writes: I'd like to suggest that Wil's access to this email list be blocked, at least as a temporary measure... I suspect that consensus among active Wikimedians would be pretty strong at this point. Pete: That is a wholly uncalled for suggestion; reckless, if you would. Please be kind. As you can see from the comments of others, there is no such consensus, mainly just requests to slow down. Erik Moeller writes: As a reminder, this list has an official soft limit of 30 posts per [month] Wil Sinclair writes: just for guidance here- should I not publicly respond to those who have publicly address me or talked about my actions or words I find it helpful to quote and briefly respond to many posts of interest in a thread, in a single reply (as I did here). And I try to make 5 edits to a project for every post, to keep a balanced perspective... Sam (PS: Victor, the A. Dewey Wikireader Project always makes me smile. Thank you for mentioning it here. :-) ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe
