Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Dennis During]

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 10:24 AM Gerard Meijssen 
wrote:

> Hoi,
> I am afraid that this is a misrepresentation. Romaine is a "self confessed"
> person with Asperger. Within our community we have an overrepresentation
> with people with a mental health issue. This is to be expected. This is
> typically not appreciated hardly ever understood. I have noticed before
> that people with a mental health issue got into problems including the
> imposition of a life time ban.
>
> I do not know about trained and responsible but when there is no experience
> with mental health, given the composition of our community when there is no
> understanding for mental health issues, I do not think trained and
> responsible is justified. The notion that we are dealing with a "mob" is
> not helpful, it alienates the people you target with your speech. It
> prevents us from getting to an understanding.\
> Thanks,
>   GerardM
>

I wish I had articulated so well the source of my shame at being part of a
movement that has yielded this result for this case.  It seems like
self-righteous, crusading intolerance at work.


-- 
Dennis C. During
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Robert Fernandez]

If you want to see the entire world through the lens of Kafka, be my
guest, but we can't make policy in this movement based on that.

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 10:01 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
 wrote:
>
> Hi Robert,
>
> I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be subject 
> to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and having no way 
> to defend yourself appeal.
>
> Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only happening 
> to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in first person 
> how flawed the system is.
>
> Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total lack 
> of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who already 
> experimented it failing in first hand.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
>
>
> A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez  
> escreveu:
>>
>> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
>> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
>> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
>> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
>> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
>> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
>>
>> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
>> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
>> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
>>  wrote:
>> >
>> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
>> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that, creates
>> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy to
>> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a vehicle
>> > for severe harassment itself.
>> >
>> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should really
>> > be looked at.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Paulo
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
>> > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
>> >
>> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I
>> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
>> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
>> > >
>> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official
>> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged 
>> > > offenders,
>> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged
>> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
>> > > harrassment.
>> > >
>> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
>> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
>> > >
>> > > Nattes à chat
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
>> > > écrit :
>> > >
>> > > >>
>> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the 
>> > > >> Wikimedia
>> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
>> > > someone
>> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
>> > > to
>> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
>> > > affected
>> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
>> > > you
>> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
>> > > >> feelings of others."
>> > > >>
>> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
>> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect 
>> > > >> on
>> > > >> this thread.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
>> > > > energy to write.
>> > > >
>> > > > Chris
>> > > > ___
>> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > > 
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ___
>> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > > 
>> > ___
>> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
>> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Isaac Olatunde]

Hi Natacha

I am not sure this thread is about whether T action was in order or not.

Aside the recent WP:FRAM, I am not aware of a single instance where T
action's was criticized largely by the community or those you described as
official representative of movement/chapters. Most opinion expressed at
WP:FRAM are mere speculations and relies entirely on what  Fram thought
might be the reason for their ban.

That being said, some members of the community who are familiar with
Romaine's past works considered them valuable to our movement and I think
that should be respected. Interpreting their comments as endorsement of the
behaviour that led to T's action and criticising official representative
of chapters who pen down a farewell note is inappropriate.

Romaine, there are other ways to volunteer and as you may already be aware,
you don't have to attend Wikimedia events to add value to our movement.
There are plenty of ways to make a difference. Personally, I appreciate
your on-wiki works and I hope you will continue the good works. But if you
want to quit contributing altogether, I wish you all the best in your
future endeavor.

Good luck.

Isaac


On Fri, Jun 21, 2019, 6:57 AM Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org wrote:

> First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I
> personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
>
> I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official
> chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders,
> showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged
> victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> harrassment.
>
> How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
> questionned by official members of our movement?
>
> Nattes à chat
>
>
>
>
>
> Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
> écrit :
>
> >>
> >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
> >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> someone
> >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
> to
> >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> affected
> >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
> you
> >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> >> feelings of others."
> >>
> >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
> >> this thread.
> >
> >
> > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > energy to write.
> >
> > Chris
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
>
> ___
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

Camelia,

My comment was not about harassment, was about systemic and rampant lack of
due process on the part of the WMF.
And it's not drama, it's reality.

Paulo

camelia boban  escreveu no dia sexta, 21/06/2019
à(s) 15:24:

> Oh my Gosh Paulo, can you stop this dramma about yourself and your problem
> with everything is connected with WMF?
>
> To others, please have respect for the both parts engaged in this sad
> story and do what Geert asked, stop discussing about this specific
> conflict publicly.
> If you want to talk more about harassment (in a generic way), then open
> another thread.
>
> Thank you,
> Camelia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Il giorno ven 21 giu 2019 alle ore 16:05 Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
>
>> False accusation with the respective punishment, that is. If it was just a
>> false accusation I would not care that much about it, though I obviously
>> dislike being falsely accused.
>>
>> Paulo
>>
>> A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 15:01, Paulo Santos Perneta <
>> paulospern...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>>
>> > Hi Robert,
>> >
>> > I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be
>> > subject to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and
>> > having no way to defend yourself appeal.
>> >
>> > Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only
>> > happening to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in
>> > first person how flawed the system is.
>> >
>> > Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total
>> > lack of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who
>> already
>> > experimented it failing in first hand.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Paulo
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez <
>> > wikigamal...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>> >
>> >> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
>> >> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
>> >> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
>> >> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
>> >> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
>> >> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
>> >>
>> >> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
>> >> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
>> >> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
>> >>  wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process
>> to
>> >> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
>> >> creates
>> >> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool
>> >> easy to
>> >> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
>> >> vehicle
>> >> > for severe harassment itself.
>> >> >
>> >> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
>> >> really
>> >> > be looked at.
>> >> >
>> >> > Best,
>> >> > Paulo
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
>> >> > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
>> >> >
>> >> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
>> >> that I
>> >> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable
>> and
>> >> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
>> >> official
>> >> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
>> >> offenders,
>> >> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
>> >> alleged
>> >> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
>> >> > > harrassment.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
>> >> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Nattes à chat
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating 
>> a
>> >> > > écrit :
>> >> > >
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
>> >> Wikimedia
>> >> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to
>> supporting
>> >> > > someone
>> >> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that
>> they
>> >> had
>> >> > > to
>> >> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
>> >> > > affected
>> >> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help
>> you
>> >> when
>> >> > > you
>> >> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
>> >> > > >> feelings of others."
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and
>> why
>> >> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[camelia boban]

Oh my Gosh Paulo, can you stop this dramma about yourself and your problem
with everything is connected with WMF?

To others, please have respect for the both parts engaged in this sad story
and do what Geert asked, stop discussing about this specific conflict
publicly.
If you want to talk more about harassment (in a generic way), then open
another thread.

Thank you,
Camelia










Il giorno ven 21 giu 2019 alle ore 16:05 Paulo Santos Perneta <
paulospern...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

> False accusation with the respective punishment, that is. If it was just a
> false accusation I would not care that much about it, though I obviously
> dislike being falsely accused.
>
> Paulo
>
> A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 15:01, Paulo Santos Perneta <
> paulospern...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>
> > Hi Robert,
> >
> > I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be
> > subject to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and
> > having no way to defend yourself appeal.
> >
> > Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only
> > happening to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in
> > first person how flawed the system is.
> >
> > Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total
> > lack of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who
> already
> > experimented it failing in first hand.
> >
> > Best,
> > Paulo
> >
> >
> >
> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez <
> > wikigamal...@gmail.com> escreveu:
> >
> >> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
> >> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
> >> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
> >> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
> >> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
> >> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
> >>
> >> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
> >> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
> >> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
> >>  wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process
> to
> >> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
> >> creates
> >> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool
> >> easy to
> >> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
> >> vehicle
> >> > for severe harassment itself.
> >> >
> >> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
> >> really
> >> > be looked at.
> >> >
> >> > Best,
> >> > Paulo
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
> >> > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
> >> >
> >> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
> >> that I
> >> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable
> and
> >> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
> >> > >
> >> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
> >> official
> >> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
> >> offenders,
> >> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
> >> alleged
> >> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> >> > > harrassment.
> >> > >
> >> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
> >> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
> >> > >
> >> > > Nattes à chat
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating 
> a
> >> > > écrit :
> >> > >
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
> >> Wikimedia
> >> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to
> supporting
> >> > > someone
> >> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that
> they
> >> had
> >> > > to
> >> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> >> > > affected
> >> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you
> >> when
> >> > > you
> >> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> >> > > >> feelings of others."
> >> > > >>
> >> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and
> why
> >> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
> >> reflect on
> >> > > >> this thread.
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon
> >> the
> >> > > > energy to write.
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Chris
> >> > > > ___
> >> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> >> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
I am afraid that this is a misrepresentation. Romaine is a "self confessed"
person with Asperger. Within our community we have an overrepresentation
with people with a mental health issue. This is to be expected. This is
typically not appreciated hardly ever understood. I have noticed before
that people with a mental health issue got into problems including the
imposition of a life time ban.

I do not know about trained and responsible but when there is no experience
with mental health, given the composition of our community when there is no
understanding for mental health issues, I do not think trained and
responsible is justified. The notion that we are dealing with a "mob" is
not helpful, it alienates the people you target with your speech. It
prevents us from getting to an understanding.\
Thanks,
  GerardM

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 15:43, Robert Fernandez 
wrote:

> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
>
> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
>  wrote:
> >
> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
> creates
> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy
> to
> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
> vehicle
> > for severe harassment itself.
> >
> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
> really
> > be looked at.
> >
> > Best,
> > Paulo
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
> > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
> >
> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
> that I
> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
> > >
> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
> official
> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
> offenders,
> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
> alleged
> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> > > harrassment.
> > >
> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
> > >
> > > Nattes à chat
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
> > > écrit :
> > >
> > > >>
> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
> Wikimedia
> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> > > someone
> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they
> had
> > > to
> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> > > affected
> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you
> when
> > > you
> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > > >> feelings of others."
> > > >>
> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
> reflect on
> > > >> this thread.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > > > energy to write.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

False accusation with the respective punishment, that is. If it was just a
false accusation I would not care that much about it, though I obviously
dislike being falsely accused.

Paulo

A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 15:01, Paulo Santos Perneta <
paulospern...@gmail.com> escreveu:

> Hi Robert,
>
> I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be
> subject to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and
> having no way to defend yourself appeal.
>
> Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only
> happening to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in
> first person how flawed the system is.
>
> Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total
> lack of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who already
> experimented it failing in first hand.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
>
>
> A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez <
> wikigamal...@gmail.com> escreveu:
>
>> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
>> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
>> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
>> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
>> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
>> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
>>
>> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
>> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
>> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
>>  wrote:
>> >
>> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
>> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
>> creates
>> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool
>> easy to
>> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
>> vehicle
>> > for severe harassment itself.
>> >
>> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
>> really
>> > be looked at.
>> >
>> > Best,
>> > Paulo
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
>> > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
>> >
>> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
>> that I
>> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
>> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
>> > >
>> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
>> official
>> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
>> offenders,
>> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
>> alleged
>> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
>> > > harrassment.
>> > >
>> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
>> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
>> > >
>> > > Nattes à chat
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
>> > > écrit :
>> > >
>> > > >>
>> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
>> Wikimedia
>> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
>> > > someone
>> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they
>> had
>> > > to
>> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
>> > > affected
>> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you
>> when
>> > > you
>> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
>> > > >> feelings of others."
>> > > >>
>> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
>> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
>> reflect on
>> > > >> this thread.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon
>> the
>> > > > energy to write.
>> > > >
>> > > > Chris
>> > > > ___
>> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > > > Unsubscribe:
>> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
>> > > 
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > ___
>> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
>> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
>> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
>> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l
>> ,
>> > > 
>> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

Hi Robert,

I believe you will only keep that opinion until the day you would be
subject to a false accusation by the WMF, without even knowing it, and
having no way to defend yourself appeal.

Everything is easy to talk about and have opinions while it is only
happening to the others. Unfortunately it is not my case, and I know in
first person how flawed the system is.

Apart from the details of the case described by the OP, the almost total
lack of due process is extremely worrying, especially to those who already
experimented it failing in first hand.

Best,
Paulo



A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 14:43, Robert Fernandez 
escreveu:

> At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
> for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
> and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
> so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
> are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
> not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?
>
> Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
> lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
> the popularity contests of the mob any day.
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
>  wrote:
> >
> > Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
> > verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that,
> creates
> > a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy
> to
> > abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a
> vehicle
> > for severe harassment itself.
> >
> > This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should
> really
> > be looked at.
> >
> > Best,
> > Paulo
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
> > wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
> >
> > > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know
> that I
> > > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> > > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
> > >
> > > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate
> official
> > > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
> offenders,
> > > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for
> alleged
> > > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> > > harrassment.
> > >
> > > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
> > > questionned by official members of our movement?
> > >
> > > Nattes à chat
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
> > > écrit :
> > >
> > > >>
> > > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
> Wikimedia
> > > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> > > someone
> > > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they
> had
> > > to
> > > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> > > affected
> > > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you
> when
> > > you
> > > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > > >> feelings of others."
> > > >>
> > > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> > > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just
> reflect on
> > > >> this thread.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > > > energy to write.
> > > >
> > > > Chris
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > >
> > >
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Robert Fernandez]

At some point we have to decide who this movement and community is
for.  Is it for popular individuals to act out in any way they please
and be awarded maximum freedom and lack of accountability?  Or is it
so we can insure a friendly space for everyone, including those who
are not popular, who are not loud voices on community forums, who do
not want to be harassed or leered at or made uncomfortable?

Everything is a tradeoff, and based on what I've seen I'll take the
lack of "due process" from trained and responsible professionals over
the popularity contests of the mob any day.


On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 4:56 AM Paulo Santos Perneta
 wrote:
>
> Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
> verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that, creates
> a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy to
> abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a vehicle
> for severe harassment itself.
>
> This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should really
> be looked at.
>
> Best,
> Paulo
>
>
>
>
>
> A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
> wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:
>
> > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I
> > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
> >
> > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official
> > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders,
> > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged
> > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> > harrassment.
> >
> > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
> > questionned by official members of our movement?
> >
> > Nattes à chat
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
> > écrit :
> >
> > >>
> > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
> > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> > someone
> > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
> > to
> > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> > affected
> > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
> > you
> > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > >> feelings of others."
> > >>
> > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
> > >> this thread.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > > energy to write.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at: 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and 
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l, 
> 

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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Robert Fernandez]

You do realize that you can email Romaine privately?


On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 1:18 AM Gerard Meijssen
 wrote:
>
> Hoi,
> You do not get it. For me this is about saying goodbye. Saying goodbye to
> someone I/we truly value. Saying goodbye to someone who we owe gratitude.
> This was not allowed to be, we say goodbye and we are told that we are
> wrong because a situation where the POV expressed is that we cannot say
> goodbye, express our gratitude because they are / feel aggrieved.
>
> I have no opinion on why this situation exists, what transpired. What I
> object to is that there is no room given for our feeling of loss. That is
> an injustice in its own right.
> Thanks,
>GerardM
>
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 00:26, Pierre-Selim  wrote:
>
> > Her POV ?
> >
> > Well I can confirm what Caroline said.
> >
> > What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?
> >
> > It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to
> > wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents reported.
> > Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list by
> > Romaine... well when do we stop this ?
> >
> > Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who have
> > reported Romaine might be reading this.
> >
> > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen 
> > a
> > écrit :
> >
> > > Caroline,
> > > For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has quite
> > > the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us
> > all
> > > he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do
> > not
> > > know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It
> > may
> > > help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > > feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know as I
> > > do not know you at all.
> > >
> > > What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are
> > you
> > > stuck in your pov.
> > > Thanks,
> > >  GerardM
> > >
> > > On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn
> > and
> > > > grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no
> > > > willingness to grow and learn.
> > > >
> > > > But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your
> > > right
> > > > to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people
> > > you
> > > > hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
> > > >
> > > > Caroline
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During  a
> > > écrit :
> > > >
> > > > > I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
> > > unfortunate
> > > > > outcome
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki  > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >  Dear community,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
> > > > > attend
> > > > > > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence
> > me,
> > > > > > intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I
> > feel
> > > > > > extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
> > > > > individuals.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Dennis C. During
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > > 
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > 
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

Taking everything and their dog as "harassment", without due process to
verify it, and issuing punishments one can't appeal based on that, creates
a feeling of fear and insecurity in the events; and provides a tool easy to
abuse by clever persons who understood how to game the system, as a vehicle
for severe harassment itself.

This creates an unsafe and unfriendly space in the events,and should really
be looked at.

Best,
Paulo





A sexta, 21 de jun de 2019, 06:57, Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l <
wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org> escreveu:

> First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I
> personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
>
> I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official
> chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders,
> showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged
> victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> harrassment.
>
> How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
> questionned by official members of our movement?
>
> Nattes à chat
>
>
>
>
>
> Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
> écrit :
>
> >>
> >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
> >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> someone
> >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
> to
> >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> affected
> >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
> you
> >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> >> feelings of others."
> >>
> >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
> >> this thread.
> >
> >
> > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > energy to write.
> >
> > Chris
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
>
>
> ___
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> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Ilario Valdelli]

The main problem happens when someone considers to don't have received a
fair assessment.

I understand that the T must have a certain role, but I am sorry for the
T, the criticisms are part of this role.

Considering that every decision will be accepted unconditionally is not
suitable. To ensure a fair trial, in general two levels of evaluation are
often created with two different "courts" so those who consider themselves
to have been wrongly judged (people can make mistakes), can ask another
"independent" court to be evaluated and to confirm or to reject the first
level. Here it seems to me that T always considers itself on the right
side but this sense of infallibility is not the feeling that the community
has.

Apart from all what strikes me is that a person must publicly say his
sexual tendencies because he believes that he has not been judged correctly
and excused, apart from the moral lesson, this thing is very sad because
the T has produced an act that has committed an even more serious act.

Imagine that the part recognized in error is right, how will the T be
excused? Will it write a letter of public apology?

Kind regards

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 9:31 AM Philip Kopetzky 
wrote:

> Questioning is ok - we might indeed need to introduce some oversight, but
> to be honest, I doubt this would solve the trust issue as long as some
> people demand full transparency where there can never be full transparency.
>
> Speculating and accusing victims of being the actual perpetrators,
> believing the perpetrators more than the victims, perpetrators depicting
> themselves as the victims, is a sad default behaviour in our community.
> This needs to change. Seriously.
>
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 08:17, Peter Southwood <
> peter.southw...@telkomsa.net>
> wrote:
>
> > How can we BE safe in the movement if we cannot question the decisions of
> > T? (when they appear questionable and unsafe)
> > Cheers,
> > Peter
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> > Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
> > Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 7:57 AM
> > To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> > Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all
> >
> > First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I
> > personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> > wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
> >
> > I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official
> > chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged
> offenders,
> > showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged
> > victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> > harrassment.
> >
> > How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
> > questionned by official members of our movement?
> >
> > Nattes à chat
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
> > écrit :
> >
> > >>
> > >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the
> Wikimedia
> > >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> > someone
> > >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
> > to
> > >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> > affected
> > >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
> > you
> > >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > >> feelings of others."
> > >>
> > >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> > >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect
> on
> > >> this thread.
> > >
> > >
> > > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > > energy to write.
> > >
> > > Chris
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > <mailto:wikimedia-l-requ...@lists.wikimedia.org?subject=unsubscribe>
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mail

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Philip Kopetzky]

Questioning is ok - we might indeed need to introduce some oversight, but
to be honest, I doubt this would solve the trust issue as long as some
people demand full transparency where there can never be full transparency.

Speculating and accusing victims of being the actual perpetrators,
believing the perpetrators more than the victims, perpetrators depicting
themselves as the victims, is a sad default behaviour in our community.
This needs to change. Seriously.

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 08:17, Peter Southwood 
wrote:

> How can we BE safe in the movement if we cannot question the decisions of
> T? (when they appear questionable and unsafe)
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On
> Behalf Of Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
> Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 7:57 AM
> To: Wikimedia Mailing List
> Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all
>
> First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I
> personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and
> wise. I totally support and trust their judgement.
>
> I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official
> chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders,
> showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged
> victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of
> harrassment.
>
> How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are
> questionned by official members of our movement?
>
> Nattes à chat
>
>
>
>
>
> Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a
> écrit :
>
> >>
> >> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
> >> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> someone
> >> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had
> to
> >> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was
> affected
> >> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
> you
> >> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> >> feelings of others."
> >>
> >> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> >> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
> >> this thread.
> >
> >
> > Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> > energy to write.
> >
> > Chris
> > ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Peter Southwood]

How can we BE safe in the movement if we cannot question the decisions of T? 
(when they appear questionable and unsafe)
Cheers,
Peter

-Original Message-
From: Wikimedia-l [mailto:wikimedia-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of 
Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2019 7:57 AM
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I 
personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and wise. I 
totally support and trust their judgement. 

I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official 
chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders, 
showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged 
victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of harrassment. 

How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are questionned by 
official members of our movement? 

Nattes à chat





Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a écrit :

>> 
>> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
>> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting someone
>> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to
>> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected
>> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when you
>> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
>> feelings of others."
>> 
>> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
>> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
>> this thread.
> 
> 
> Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> energy to write.
> 
> Chris
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Natacha Rault via Wikimedia-l]

First of all I don’t know the context of this conversation. I know that I 
personnally find that the actions of  Trust& Safety  very valuable and wise. I 
totally support and trust their judgement. 

I am tired of seing their work criticized, and do not appreciate official 
chapter representants and employees publicly supporting alleged offenders, 
showing no aknowledgement of the fact that this is very toxic for alleged 
victims, and does not help to change attitude towards issues of harrassment. 

How can we feel safe in the movement if the decisions of T are questionned by 
official members of our movement? 

Nattes à chat





Le 21 juin 2019 à 01:04, Chris Keating  a écrit :

>> 
>> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
>> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting someone
>> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to
>> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected
>> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when you
>> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
>> feelings of others."
>> 
>> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
>> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
>> this thread.
> 
> 
> Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
> energy to write.
> 
> Chris
> ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi,
You do not get it. For me this is about saying goodbye. Saying goodbye to
someone I/we truly value. Saying goodbye to someone who we owe gratitude.
This was not allowed to be, we say goodbye and we are told that we are
wrong because a situation where the POV expressed is that we cannot say
goodbye, express our gratitude because they are / feel aggrieved.

I have no opinion on why this situation exists, what transpired. What I
object to is that there is no room given for our feeling of loss. That is
an injustice in its own right.
Thanks,
   GerardM

On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 00:26, Pierre-Selim  wrote:

> Her POV ?
>
> Well I can confirm what Caroline said.
>
> What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?
>
> It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to
> wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents reported.
> Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list by
> Romaine... well when do we stop this ?
>
> Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who have
> reported Romaine might be reading this.
>
> Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen 
> a
> écrit :
>
> > Caroline,
> > For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has quite
> > the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us
> all
> > he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do
> not
> > know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It
> may
> > help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know as I
> > do not know you at all.
> >
> > What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are
> you
> > stuck in your pov.
> > Thanks,
> >  GerardM
> >
> > On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn
> and
> > > grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no
> > > willingness to grow and learn.
> > >
> > > But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your
> > right
> > > to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people
> > you
> > > hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
> > >
> > > Caroline
> > >
> > >
> > > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During  a
> > écrit :
> > >
> > > > I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
> > unfortunate
> > > > outcome
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki  >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >  Dear community,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
> > > > attend
> > > > > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence
> me,
> > > > > intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I
> feel
> > > > > extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
> > > > individuals.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Dennis C. During
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > 
> > > ___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[GorillaWarfare]

Well, no, this is the team that banned an en.wp admin for reasons they are
not able to disclose. It is only community speculation based on a portion
of an email sent to the banned user that has led people to draw the same
conclusion as you, and I suspect that is not the full story. That, however,
is probably a conversation for a different thread, although there are
overlapping themes in that someone who has allegedly done something(s)
negative towards at least one member of our community is being
wholeheartedly defended (and the alleged target vilified) by a community
that does not know the whole story.

- Molly White (GorillaWarfare)

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019, 7:12 PM Nathan  wrote:

> This is the
> same team that took the extraordinary and unique step of banning an en.wp
> admin for saying "fuck arbcom", apparently not anticipating or taking any
> steps to mitigate the inevitable blowback.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[effe iets anders]

Gerard, I think your comment is highly inappropriate. I don't generally
like to pile on, but this needs calling out. When discussing these
sensitive topics, the very least we can expect, is a careful approach to
the matter.

I don't know the underlying situation well enough to establish who's right,
to verify claims or to find whether the actions taken are reasonable (be it
towards Romaine or towards the complainants). I can only assume you have
roughly the same amount of information - and in such a situation a level of
humility would be fitting.

We can discuss process, but should never say that involved parties 'make
this about themselves'. Leave that determination to those who are actually
familiar with all the facts.

Lodewijk

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 4:03 PM Philip Kopetzky 
wrote:

> Thanks Molly for your thoughtful words, I really hope your words make some
> people think about their own replies in this thread.
>
> On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 23:42, GorillaWarfare <
> gorillawarfarewikipe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > I do not know Romaine, I do not know Caroline, and I do not know much
> about
> > the events that have led up to all of this other than what has been said
> on
> > this mailing list. It is easy to take sides in cases like these, based on
> > who you know best, your past experiences with that person, and a
> multitude
> > of other reasons. I suspect no one truly knows the whole story (even the
> > folks who were directly involved—after all, you can never know the
> > intentions of another person, or how they are interpreting your own
> > actions). But what we do know is that some actions Romaine took led to
> > Trust & Safety deciding they needed to intervene. They are tasked with
> > keeping people within our movement safe, both online and in person at
> > events. In my experience they do an extremely good job.
> >
> > It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
> > movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting
> someone
> > who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to
> > intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected
> > by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when
> you
> > grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > feelings of others."
> >
> > If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> > Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
> > this thread.
> >
> > – Molly (GorillaWarfare)
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GorillaWarfare
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:26 PM Pierre-Selim 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Her POV ?
> > >
> > > Well I can confirm what Caroline said.
> > >
> > > What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?
> > >
> > > It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to
> > > wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents
> reported.
> > > Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list
> by
> > > Romaine... well when do we stop this ?
> > >
> > > Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who
> have
> > > reported Romaine might be reading this.
> > >
> > > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen <
> gerard.meijs...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > a
> > > écrit :
> > >
> > > > Caroline,
> > > > For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has
> > quite
> > > > the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for
> us
> > > all
> > > > he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I
> do
> > > not
> > > > know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many.
> It
> > > may
> > > > help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience,
> > the
> > > > feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know
> > as I
> > > > do not know you at all.
> > > >
> > > > What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend
> are
> > > you
> > > > stuck in your pov.
> > > > Thanks,
> > > >  GerardM
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker <
> carobecke...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to
> learn
> > > and
> > > > > grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing
> > no
> > > > > willingness to grow and learn.
> > > > >
> > > > > But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming
> your
> > > > right
> > > > > to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the
> > people
> > > > you
> > > > > hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
> > > > >
> > > > > Caroline
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During  a
> > > > écrit :
> > > > >
> > > > > > I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
> > > > unfortunate
> > > > > > outcome
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki <
> > 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Nathan]

I think it's OK to mourn the loss of someone's future contributions and
participation, without purporting to make a decision on the substance of
any accusations. I read Romaine's e-mail and thought it sad that he felt it
necessary to withdraw. I also am not blindly trusting of T This is the
same team that took the extraordinary and unique step of banning an en.wp
admin for saying "fuck arbcom", apparently not anticipating or taking any
steps to mitigate the inevitable blowback.
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Chris Keating]

>
> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting someone
> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to
> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected
> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when you
> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> feelings of others."
>
> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
> this thread.


Thank you, Molly, for expressing what I was just trying to summon the
energy to write.

Chris
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Philip Kopetzky]

Thanks Molly for your thoughtful words, I really hope your words make some
people think about their own replies in this thread.

On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 23:42, GorillaWarfare <
gorillawarfarewikipe...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I do not know Romaine, I do not know Caroline, and I do not know much about
> the events that have led up to all of this other than what has been said on
> this mailing list. It is easy to take sides in cases like these, based on
> who you know best, your past experiences with that person, and a multitude
> of other reasons. I suspect no one truly knows the whole story (even the
> folks who were directly involved—after all, you can never know the
> intentions of another person, or how they are interpreting your own
> actions). But what we do know is that some actions Romaine took led to
> Trust & Safety deciding they needed to intervene. They are tasked with
> keeping people within our movement safe, both online and in person at
> events. In my experience they do an extremely good job.
>
> It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
> movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting someone
> who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to
> intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected
> by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when you
> grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> feelings of others."
>
> If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
> Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
> this thread.
>
> – Molly (GorillaWarfare)
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GorillaWarfare
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:26 PM Pierre-Selim 
> wrote:
>
> > Her POV ?
> >
> > Well I can confirm what Caroline said.
> >
> > What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?
> >
> > It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to
> > wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents reported.
> > Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list by
> > Romaine... well when do we stop this ?
> >
> > Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who have
> > reported Romaine might be reading this.
> >
> > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen  >
> > a
> > écrit :
> >
> > > Caroline,
> > > For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has
> quite
> > > the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us
> > all
> > > he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do
> > not
> > > know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It
> > may
> > > help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience,
> the
> > > feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know
> as I
> > > do not know you at all.
> > >
> > > What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are
> > you
> > > stuck in your pov.
> > > Thanks,
> > >  GerardM
> > >
> > > On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn
> > and
> > > > grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing
> no
> > > > willingness to grow and learn.
> > > >
> > > > But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your
> > > right
> > > > to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the
> people
> > > you
> > > > hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
> > > >
> > > > Caroline
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During  a
> > > écrit :
> > > >
> > > > > I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
> > > unfortunate
> > > > > outcome
> > > > >
> > > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki <
> romaine.w...@gmail.com
> > >
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >  Dear community,
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no
> longer
> > > > > attend
> > > > > > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence
> > me,
> > > > > > intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I
> > feel
> > > > > > extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
> > > > > individuals.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > --
> > > > > Dennis C. During
> > > > > ___
> > > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > > Unsubscribe:
> > https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > >  ?subject=unsubscribe>
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[GorillaWarfare]

I do not know Romaine, I do not know Caroline, and I do not know much about
the events that have led up to all of this other than what has been said on
this mailing list. It is easy to take sides in cases like these, based on
who you know best, your past experiences with that person, and a multitude
of other reasons. I suspect no one truly knows the whole story (even the
folks who were directly involved—after all, you can never know the
intentions of another person, or how they are interpreting your own
actions). But what we do know is that some actions Romaine took led to
Trust & Safety deciding they needed to intervene. They are tasked with
keeping people within our movement safe, both online and in person at
events. In my experience they do an extremely good job.

It is extremely disappointing, and *extremely typical* of the Wikimedia
movement, to see an entire thread like this dedicated to supporting someone
who Trust & Safety has found to have acted in such a way that they had to
intervene. It is even more disappointing to see a person who was affected
by his actions told "this is not your story" and "it may help you when you
grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
feelings of others."

If you're wondering why women leave the Wikimedia movement, and why
Wikimedia has such a bad harassment problem in general, just reflect on
this thread.

– Molly (GorillaWarfare)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:GorillaWarfare


On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 6:26 PM Pierre-Selim 
wrote:

> Her POV ?
>
> Well I can confirm what Caroline said.
>
> What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?
>
> It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to
> wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents reported.
> Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list by
> Romaine... well when do we stop this ?
>
> Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who have
> reported Romaine might be reading this.
>
> Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen 
> a
> écrit :
>
> > Caroline,
> > For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has quite
> > the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us
> all
> > he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do
> not
> > know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It
> may
> > help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> > feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know as I
> > do not know you at all.
> >
> > What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are
> you
> > stuck in your pov.
> > Thanks,
> >  GerardM
> >
> > On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn
> and
> > > grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no
> > > willingness to grow and learn.
> > >
> > > But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your
> > right
> > > to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people
> > you
> > > hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
> > >
> > > Caroline
> > >
> > >
> > > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During  a
> > écrit :
> > >
> > > > I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
> > unfortunate
> > > > outcome
> > > >
> > > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki  >
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >  Dear community,
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
> > > > attend
> > > > > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence
> me,
> > > > > intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I
> feel
> > > > > extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
> > > > individuals.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Dennis C. During
> > > > ___
> > > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > > Unsubscribe:
> https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > > 
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Pierre-Selim]

Her POV ?

Well I can confirm what Caroline said.

What more do you want ? To verify all other reports ?

It's sad that things have escalated this far, but may be it's time to
wonder why it escalated like that. There was multiple incidents reported.
Things that should have stayed private were told on this mailing list by
Romaine... well when do we stop this ?

Please keep in mind when you cast your support here that people who have
reported Romaine might be reading this.

Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 23:12, Gerard Meijssen  a
écrit :

> Caroline,
> For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has quite
> the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us all
> he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do not
> know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It may
> help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
> feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know as I
> do not know you at all.
>
> What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are you
> stuck in your pov.
> Thanks,
>  GerardM
>
> On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker 
> wrote:
>
> > This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn and
> > grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no
> > willingness to grow and learn.
> >
> > But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your
> right
> > to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people
> you
> > hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
> >
> > Caroline
> >
> >
> > Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During  a
> écrit :
> >
> > > I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this
> unfortunate
> > > outcome
> > >
> > > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >  Dear community,
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
> > > attend
> > > > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> > > > intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> > > > extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
> > > individuals.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > --
> > > Dennis C. During
> > > ___
> > > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > > 
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Paulo Santos Perneta]

I am very sad and depressed with this outcome, especially with someone as
Romaine, which I am quite lucky to know personally.

And it is very true that now one has to have eyes in their back and be
extra careful when going to WMF run events, as the risk of abuse of T is
quite real.

Dangerous times.

Paulo

Romaine Wiki  escreveu no dia quinta, 20/06/2019
à(s) 12:15:

>  Dear community,
>
> First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too
> limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was
> written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email
> contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and
> eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation
> needed}} to that person's saying.
>
>
>
>
> About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend
> any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
>
> This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I
> have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years
> before only twice that ill.
>
> I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see
> no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being
> different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
>
>
>
>
> From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I
> can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various
> conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.
>
> To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I
> have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had
> such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this
> emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!
>
>
> Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an
> impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past
> period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that
> I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was
> flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest
> in the other.
>
> I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really
> introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our
> movement would respect me in my diversity.
>
>
> Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I
> understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on
> the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different
> gender identification. In other words: LGBT+   Also I am autistic, having
> aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing
> problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory),
> etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit
> socially clumsy.
>
> The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone.
> In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th
> birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have
> seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the
> world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am
> leaving as I am not feeling safe again.
>
> But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably
> win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the
> right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of
> expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with
> complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals,
> with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking
> into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals
> involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against
> allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are made.
> Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking with
> me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy
> insult to me.
>
> Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with dialogues,
> as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, offered
> help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero
> results, zero self reflection.
>
> There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.
>
>
>
> In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, political
> beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of a
> different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Gerard Meijssen]

Caroline,
For me this is not your story. Your insistence of making it so has quite
the opposite effect. I have known Romaine, the tireless efforts for us all
he has given us over the years, I grieve for our collective loss. I do not
know you and you are intruding on what is a feeling shared by many. It may
help you when you grow some sensitivity and respect this experience, the
feelings of others. Maybe it is too difficult for you, I do not know as I
do not know you at all.

What I wonder is to what extend do you know Romaine, to what extend are you
stuck in your pov.
Thanks,
 GerardM

On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 19:00, Caroline Becker 
wrote:

> This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn and
> grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no
> willingness to grow and learn.
>
> But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your right
> to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people you
> hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?
>
> Caroline
>
>
> Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During  a écrit :
>
> > I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this unfortunate
> > outcome
> >
> > On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki 
> > wrote:
> >
> > >  Dear community,
> > >
> > >
> > > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
> > attend
> > > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> > > intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> > > extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
> > individuals.
> > >
> > >
> > --
> > Dennis C. During
> > ___
> > Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> > New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> > Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> > 
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Ilario Valdelli]

Hi Romaine
you know that you are always welcome.

And if you have to categorize yourself to be accepted, we should say that
the community is becoming insane.

We accept Romaine because is Romane non because he is man/woman,
black/white, LGBT/Etero, etc.

Kind regards

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 1:15 PM Romaine Wiki  wrote:

>  Dear community,
>
> First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too
> limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was
> written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email
> contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and
> eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation
> needed}} to that person's saying.
>
>
>
>
> About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend
> any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
>
> This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I
> have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years
> before only twice that ill.
>
> I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see
> no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being
> different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
>
>
>
>
> From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I
> can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various
> conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.
>
> To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I
> have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had
> such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this
> emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!
>
>
> Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an
> impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past
> period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that
> I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was
> flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest
> in the other.
>
> I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really
> introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our
> movement would respect me in my diversity.
>
>
> Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I
> understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on
> the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different
> gender identification. In other words: LGBT+   Also I am autistic, having
> aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing
> problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory),
> etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit
> socially clumsy.
>
> The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone.
> In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th
> birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have
> seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the
> world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am
> leaving as I am not feeling safe again.
>
> But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably
> win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the
> right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of
> expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with
> complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals,
> with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking
> into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals
> involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against
> allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are made.
> Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking with
> me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy
> insult to me.
>
> Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with dialogues,
> as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, offered
> help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero
> results, zero self reflection.
>
> There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.
>
>
>
> In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, political
> beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of a
> different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because they
> are considered to be "weird" when 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Caroline Becker]

This is such a lost. Not only did you waisted an opportunity to learn and
grow from your mistakes the first time, you reiterate here, showing no
willingness to grow and learn.

But why would you take the difficult path, when by just claiming your right
to "weirdness" (which I guess only apply to you and none to the people you
hurt), you're rewarding with public support ?

Caroline


Le jeu. 20 juin 2019 à 18:55, Dennis During  a écrit :

> I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this unfortunate
> outcome
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki 
> wrote:
>
> >  Dear community,
> >
> >
> > About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer
> attend
> > any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> > intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> > extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few
> individuals.
> >
> >
> --
> Dennis C. During
> ___
> Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines at:
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Mailing_lists/Guidelines and
> https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia-l
> New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
> Unsubscribe: https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/wikimedia-l,
> 
___
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New messages to: Wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Dennis During]

I am ashamed that the movement has a climate that allows this unfortunate
outcome

On Thu, Jun 20, 2019 at 7:15 AM Romaine Wiki  wrote:

>  Dear community,
>
>
> About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend
> any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
>
>
-- 
Dennis C. During
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Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Rehman Abubakr]

Hi Romaine,

I completely agree with Camelia, and would like to echo the same.

Most of us are weird in some way, so don't feel bad. Even after meeting 
hundreds of people from all over the world, I still have a very hard time 
socialising "normally". I've been this way pretty much as far as I can 
remember. But the diverseness (a.k.a. weirdness) of Wikimedians allowed me to 
simply be who I am, and be happy. I know a number of people also consider me 
odd, but as of lately I'm now more than ok with that.

That being said, most of the time it is so easy for people to hurt others by 
reacting without thinking, even for the briefest of moments. And unfortunate 
things can happen in the best places we know. My little advise would be to let 
it go and move on. Don't let it get the best of you. Hopefully those who put 
you down, intentionally or unintentionally, will step-up to make things right 
someday.

I've met you a number of times in various parts of the world, although briefly 
on all occasions (I'm bad at maintaining long conversations - a party pooper of 
sorts!), and I know from your words, expressions, and body language, that your 
are an amazing person with a very warm heart.

Cheer up, and don't cling on darker thoughts. It troubles no one other than the 
person clinging to it.

Goodnight from here.



Yours truly,


Rehman Abubakr (Roy)<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rehman>

OTRS agent, Admin (English Wikipedia, Commons), Contributor (Wikidata, Meta)
User:Rehman<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Rehman> | 
Talkpage<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Rehman> | 
rehman.wikime...@live.com<mailto:rehman.wikime...@live.com> | 
UG-LK<https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_Community_User_Group_Sri_Lanka/English>


From: Wikimedia-l  on behalf of 
camelia boban 
Sent: 20 June 2019 19:57
To: Wikimedia Mailing List
Subject: Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

One way or another, as nerds, we are all weird. I felt in love with this
movement when I realized that anyone inside would not have felt a stranger.
I live in Rome, where there is the habit of hugging and / or kissing each
other on one cheek and another when we meet. In the Arab world I saw that
the kisses they give are 3. At this point, I will think twice before doing
it.  In the MeeToo era we must be careful not to exaggerate, striving to
understand the difference between harassment and what can sometimes be
rudeness only or, in this case, sensitivity and affection expressed in
another way congenital to us.

Let us remember that behind what we perceive as "different" there is a
human being, with his story and his desire for interment and to be part of
something greater, a community.

I will miss you Romaine, I will miss your tenderness and I am so sorry
about how things went and how bad you are.

I don't know about you wikipedians, but I feel terribly sad. And defeat,
because I don't understand what's happening to us.


*Camelia*














Il giorno gio 20 giu 2019 alle ore 13:15 Romaine Wiki <
romaine.w...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

>  Dear community,
>
> First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too
> limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was
> written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email
> contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and
> eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation
> needed}} to that person's saying.
>
>
>
>
> About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend
> any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
>
> This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I
> have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years
> before only twice that ill.
>
> I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see
> no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being
> different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
>
>
>
>
> From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I
> can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various
> conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.
>
> To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I
> have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had
> such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this
> emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!
>
>
> Some people have indicated with last year's conferen

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Santiago Navarro]

It is very sad to read this e-mail. I had the luck of meeting you 
several times. I wish you the best in your life.


Thank you for all these time working for free knowledge.

El 2019-06-20 17:59, Gerard Meijssen escribió:

Hoi Romaine,
I am sad. It has been a pleasure to work with you. Your energy has been
inspiring.

I hope that we will find each other whenever, wherever.
Thank you Romaine :)
Gerard

On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 13:15, Romaine Wiki  
wrote:



 Dear community,

First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too
limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail 
was

written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email
contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and
eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add 
{{Citation

needed}} to that person's saying.




About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer 
attend

any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few 
individuals.


This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months 
ago I

have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years
before only twice that ill.

I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so 
I see
no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for 
being

different, I am not interested in a second episode now.




From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand 
where I

can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various
conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for 
everyone.


To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that 
I
have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever 
had
such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you 
this
emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My 
apologies!



Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had 
an

impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past
period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think 
that
I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I 
was
flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no 
interest

in the other.

I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really
introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in 
our

movement would respect me in my diversity.


Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I
understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not 
fall on
the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a 
different
gender identification. In other words: LGBT+   Also I am autistic, 
having
aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a 
hearing
problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic 
memory),

etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit
socially clumsy.

The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet 
anyone.
In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 
10th
birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might 
have
seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to 
the
world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later 
I am

leaving as I am not feeling safe again.

But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would 
probably

win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the
right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of 
freedom of

expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with
complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent 
individuals,
with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with 
taking
into account *all* information, with care and respect to all 
individuals

involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against
allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are 
made.
Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking 
with

me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy
insult to me.

Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with 
dialogues,
as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, 
offered

help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero
results, zero self reflection.

There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.



In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, 
political
beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of 
a
different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Gerard Meijssen]

Hoi Romaine,
I am sad. It has been a pleasure to work with you. Your energy has been
inspiring.

I hope that we will find each other whenever, wherever.
Thank you Romaine :)
Gerard

On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 13:15, Romaine Wiki  wrote:

>  Dear community,
>
> First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too
> limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was
> written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email
> contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and
> eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation
> needed}} to that person's saying.
>
>
>
>
> About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend
> any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
>
> This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I
> have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years
> before only twice that ill.
>
> I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see
> no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being
> different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
>
>
>
>
> From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I
> can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various
> conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.
>
> To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I
> have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had
> such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this
> emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!
>
>
> Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an
> impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past
> period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that
> I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was
> flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest
> in the other.
>
> I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really
> introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our
> movement would respect me in my diversity.
>
>
> Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I
> understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on
> the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different
> gender identification. In other words: LGBT+   Also I am autistic, having
> aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing
> problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory),
> etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit
> socially clumsy.
>
> The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone.
> In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th
> birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have
> seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the
> world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am
> leaving as I am not feeling safe again.
>
> But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably
> win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the
> right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of
> expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with
> complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals,
> with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking
> into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals
> involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against
> allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are made.
> Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking with
> me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy
> insult to me.
>
> Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with dialogues,
> as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, offered
> help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero
> results, zero self reflection.
>
> There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.
>
>
>
> In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, political
> beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of a
> different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because they
> are considered to be "weird" when people do not understand the other. I
> would prefer that we do not copy that and 

Re: [Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[camelia boban]

One way or another, as nerds, we are all weird. I felt in love with this
movement when I realized that anyone inside would not have felt a stranger.
I live in Rome, where there is the habit of hugging and / or kissing each
other on one cheek and another when we meet. In the Arab world I saw that
the kisses they give are 3. At this point, I will think twice before doing
it.  In the MeeToo era we must be careful not to exaggerate, striving to
understand the difference between harassment and what can sometimes be
rudeness only or, in this case, sensitivity and affection expressed in
another way congenital to us.

Let us remember that behind what we perceive as "different" there is a
human being, with his story and his desire for interment and to be part of
something greater, a community.

I will miss you Romaine, I will miss your tenderness and I am so sorry
about how things went and how bad you are.

I don't know about you wikipedians, but I feel terribly sad. And defeat,
because I don't understand what's happening to us.


*Camelia*














Il giorno gio 20 giu 2019 alle ore 13:15 Romaine Wiki <
romaine.w...@gmail.com> ha scritto:

>  Dear community,
>
> First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too
> limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was
> written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email
> contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and
> eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation
> needed}} to that person's saying.
>
>
>
>
> About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend
> any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
> intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
> extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.
>
> This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I
> have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years
> before only twice that ill.
>
> I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see
> no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being
> different, I am not interested in a second episode now.
>
>
>
>
> From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I
> can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various
> conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.
>
> To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I
> have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had
> such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this
> emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!
>
>
> Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an
> impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past
> period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that
> I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was
> flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest
> in the other.
>
> I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really
> introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our
> movement would respect me in my diversity.
>
>
> Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I
> understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on
> the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different
> gender identification. In other words: LGBT+   Also I am autistic, having
> aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing
> problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory),
> etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit
> socially clumsy.
>
> The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone.
> In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th
> birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have
> seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the
> world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am
> leaving as I am not feeling safe again.
>
> But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably
> win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the
> right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of
> expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with
> complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals,
> with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking
> into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals
> involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against
> allegations 

[Wikimedia-l] Some goodbye to all

[Romaine Wiki]

 Dear community,

First I need to mention that the message I sent a few days ago had too
limited information regarding the context of the message. The e-mail was
written by me personally alone, written from my perspective. The email
contained an overview what has happened, written based on e-mails and
eyewitnesses. So if anyone would say it is not true, please add {{Citation
needed}} to that person's saying.




About a month ago I have decided that I will indefinitely no longer attend
any WMF funded events as result of bullying, attempts to silence me,
intimidation and treats against me. This has resulted in that I feel
extremely unsafe as the result of the behaviour of only a few individuals.

This has lead that since the start of this occurring about 18 months ago I
have been over a dozen of times very ill, while I was in the 10 years
before only twice that ill.

I see no indication that the issues addressed are taken seriously, so I see
no safe space for me to be present. In my childhood I was bullied for being
different, I am not interested in a second episode now.




From my parents I have learned to lend others always a helping hand where I
can. As such I was happy to be able to help the organisers of various
conferences and I always tried to make it a comfortable place for everyone.

To my regret I have been informed that some people have indicated that I
have given them an unpleasant feeling. You must know that I never ever had
such intention (also still largely unsure what of me has given you this
emotion) and I am feeling bad that I gave you such feeling. My apologies!


Some people have indicated with last year's conference that they had an
impression of me while I never ever had intended as such. In the past
period I have been thinking about it what would make some people think that
I gave that impression. This includes that some people think that I was
flirting or something with other people, while I actually had no interest
in the other.

I suspect it might have something to do that I almost never really
introduced myself as I always thought that widely diverse people in our
movement would respect me in my diversity.


Perhaps it is good to create some clarity. Traditionally looking, I
understand people expect me as "man" to fall on women, but I do not fall on
the women present at the conferences, as well as that I have a different
gender identification. In other words: LGBT+   Also I am autistic, having
aspergers, having sensory overloads, being claustrophobic, having a hearing
problem, avoiding touching, having an eidetic memory (photographic memory),
etc, being divergent in comparison to many others, I am feeling a bit
socially clumsy.

The first 8 years in the wiki world I was not feeling safe to meet anyone.
In 2011 I visited the first wiki event when Wikipedia celebrated its 10th
birthday. I felt more and more safe and joined more events. You might have
seen me with my large enthusiasm as I feel by providing knowledge to the
world, we make the world a better place for anyone. Now 8 years later I am
leaving as I am not feeling safe again.

But please, do not get me wrong. I live in a country that would probably
win the world championships in complaining. I believe everyone has the
right to complain, as that I see as part of the basic rights of freedom of
expression and thought. It matters however what happens next with
complaints. Every complaint should be judged by independent individuals,
with impartiality, without also any *appearance* of partiality, with taking
into account *all* information, with care and respect to all individuals
involved. (etc) Also anyone has the right to defend themselves against
allegations *before* conclusions are drawn and before decisions are made.
Among other things, three times a conclusion was drawn without talking with
me, with as excuse "we know how he thinks", sorry, but that is a heavy
insult to me.

Behind the scenes I have been trying to address the issues with dialogues,
as well as various other people, who have indicated their concerns, offered
help, offered (actual) solutions, tried to intermediate, etc etc, zero
results, zero self reflection.

There is a limit of what a human being can bear, my limit is here.



In the world, people have been discriminated for their religion, political
beliefs, the colour of their skin, because of their gender, because of a
different gender identity, how they look like, ..., or just because they
are considered to be "weird" when people do not understand the other. I
would prefer that we do not copy that and instead organise a civilised
complaint handling that works independently.



Many of you gave me a welcome feeling, independent from who/how I am. Thank
you!

As I likely will not meet you again, the one thing that rests me to say is:
thank you for collaborating, talking and sharing your thoughts, I wish you
all the best!


Romaine
___
Wikimedia-l mailing list,