Re: [WISPA] Miami hotel

[Mike Hammett]

I ended up going to Key West for dinner.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Jeremy Parr" 
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 10:11 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Miami hotel

> I'm also stuck in Miami this weekend. We were headed to Mexico until
> Ida changed those plans. Anyone up for a group dinner Sunday night?
>
> On 11/7/09, Faisal Imtiaz  wrote:
>> Jump on Hotels.com and take your pick. Plenty of great places all over 
>> the
>> town, in all ranges of prices and amenities. To suit your taste..
>>
>>
>> Faisal Imtiaz
>> Computer Office Solutions Inc. /SnappyDSL.net
>> Ph: (305) 663-5518 x 232
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 6:36 PM
>> To: WISPA members; WISPA General List
>> Subject: [WISPA] Miami hotel
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> My flight plans just changed for the cruise trip, so I will need a hotel 
>> for
>> tomorrow (Sunday) night in Miami. Any suggestions?
>>
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>
>>
>> 
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
> -- 
> Sent from my mobile device
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Miami hotel

[Mike Hammett]

Too late because I've been enjoying South Florida, but I have been staying 
at the Crowne Plaza.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Travis Johnson" 
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 5:36 PM
To: "WISPA members" ; "WISPA General List" 

Subject: [WISPA] Miami hotel

> Hi,
>
> My flight plans just changed for the cruise trip, so I will need a hotel
> for tomorrow (Sunday) night in Miami. Any suggestions?
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Marlon K. Schafer]

That's correct.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "RickG" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 8:06 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?


> Marlon,
>
> I'm assuming that since you have metered billing, you dont have to worry
> about shaping their bandwidth at the CPE then?
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Marlon K. Schafer 
> wrote:
>
>> We put THEIR password on all radios.  They can move to a new company any
>> time they want.  It's a good sales thing for us actually.  No contracts 
>> and
>> they own the radio.  The only reason for them to stay with us is that 
>> we're
>> doing a good job.  The customers out here eat that logic up!
>> marlon
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Jayson Baker" 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 12:31 PM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?
>>
>>
>> > Only drawback I've seen to them buying it is that if you have
>> confidential
>> > configuration information in it, and the customer demands access to it
>> > since
>> > "they bought it"
>> >
>> > On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:24 PM, RickG  wrote:
>> >
>> >> I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as
>> >> part
>> >> of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the 
>> >> past.
>> >> With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to
>> where
>> >> the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to
>> >> this
>> >> strategy.
>> >> -RickG
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> 
>> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> >> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> >>
>> >>
>> 
>> >>
>> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>> >>
>> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>> >>
>> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> > http://signup.wispa.org/
>> >
>> 
>> >
>> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>> >
>> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>> >
>> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Marlon K. Schafer]

If you own all of the CPE the customer will expect the latest and greatest. 
When you upgrade the system you not only have to change out tower gear but 
you also have to change out the cpe.  Oh yeah, you have to pay for both if 
you own the cpe.  But you'll not get any "install" fees from people down the 
road.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?


> Huh?  I do capitalize tower equipment; just NOT CPE.
>
> Mike
>
> At 08:43 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>>Yeah, till you have to forklift entire towers at a time.  Then what?  No
>>more install fees, but you could easily have to replace thousands of 
>>dollars
>>in hardware within week or months.
>>marlon
>>
>>- Original Message -
>>From: "Mike" 
>>To: "WISPA General List" 
>>Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:12 PM
>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?
>>
>>
>> >I made a decision when I founded this company that I wouldn't keep
>> > CPE on the books.  I extract a capital fee on day one for the REAL
>> > cost of CPE and cabling, mount et al.  I maintain ownership.
>> >
>> > It's like joining a health club; you pay an initiation fee.  When you
>> > quit, you don't get to take the universal gym home with you.  They
>> > comprehend this ideology and play along.  I usually get them to sign
>> > a 2 year contract by telling them I can't raise their rates for 24 
>> > months.
>> >
>> > MIke
>> >
>> >
>> > At 02:24 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>> >>I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as
>> >>part
>> >>of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the 
>> >>past.
>> >>With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to 
>> >>where
>> >>the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to
>> >>this
>> >>strategy.
>> >>-RickG
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>-- 
>> --
>> >>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> >>http://signup.wispa.org/
>> >>-- 
>> --
>> >>
>> >>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>> >>
>> >>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> >>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>> >>
>> >>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> > http://signup.wispa.org/
>> >
>> 
>> >
>> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>> >
>> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>> >
>> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>>
>>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Travis Johnson]

Yup... I've been saying this for almost 8 years... ;)

The other thing to keep in mind is when you can buy 100 CPE at a time,
the price is less... which actually offsets some of the interest rate
of leasing. :)

Travis
Microserv

Chuck Hogg wrote:

  Let me ask you this though...

Would you rather

1) Buy $5,000 worth of Canopy equipment per month at 25 installs per
month (new $1,250 in revenue at $50/mth)

- Or -

2) Obtain a lease at $3,000 per month for 100 installs per month ($5,000
in revenue at $50/mth).  Essentially, you are putting $2k in the bank
after paying $3k on the lease for 12 months then $5,000 per month after
that.

Take this as being done over 2 years.

Option 1 has 600 customers paying $50 per month at $30k per month and is
debt free.  After two years, if you were to attempt to value your
company at $500-600 per sub, your company is worth 360k.

Option 2 has 2400 customers paying $50 per month at $120k per month and
is in debt (based on a rotating amortization schedule) in debt only
$110k (doing it in my head, it's approximate).  After two years, if you
were to attempt to value your company at $500-600 per sub, your company
is worth $1.2 Million with a debt of $110k net $1.1 Million.

These are based on $50 per month averages, some of you are more, some of
you are less.  I learned this lesson from a friend of mine who told me
the local cable co. is leasing every piece of equipment that goes to a
customer.  That way they are never operating on negative cashflow while
maximizing available customers.  Before I started leasing, I was Option
1.  After leasing, our available cash has increased greatly offering
many company benefits, like increasing our footprint, new vehicles, etc.
We pay for about half our monthly equipment by leasing.

Regards,
Chuck Hogg
Shelby Broadband
502-722-9292
ch...@shelbybb.com
http://www.shelbybb.com


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 10:16 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

Oh heck no.  My balance sheet looks awesome; no debt; positive cash
flow.

Mike

At 03:56 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
  
  
Do you feel it has a negative affect on your companies value if you

  
  dont own
  
  
the CPE?

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:



  You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go
  

  
  pick
  
  

  up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for
replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on product such as
  

  
  modem
  
  

  insurance.

Regards
Michael Baird
  
  
I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained

  

  
  ownership as
  
  

  part
  
  
of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the

  

  
  past.
  
  

  
With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that

  

  
  to where
  
  

  
the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and

  

  
  cons to
  
  

  this
  
  
strategy.
-RickG




  

  
  

  
  

  
WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


  

  
  

  
  

  
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/


  
  



  

  
  

  
  

  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


  

  
  

  
  

  WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

  


---

  
  -
  
  
WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/
---

  
  -
  
  
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

  
  





WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubsc

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[RickG]

While our $200 install fee stops a few, it really hasnt been a big issue.
I've seen several studies that indicated most would spend $200 for
installation for broadband. On that note, the reason I'm inquiring about
selling the customer the equipment is that would allow me to lower the
install fee even though their out of pocket would be the same, they would
feel they got something for it.  -RickG

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 11:42 PM,  wrote:

> My personal opinion is that it would be more attractive if I got the cpe as
> part of a purchase of a company no matter equipment. On another note I have
> never had anyone wanting to buy the CPE to get out of a 1 year contract.
>  The only thing preventing people to signup is the 99 install fee is to high
> but generally all people come back after a few months with the $99 in hand
> because they couldn't get a better deal and none would consider to pay $200+
> or so for install and cpe.
>
> /Eje
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: RickG 
> Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 23:26:45
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?
>
> Mike, Fortunately our balance sheet looks awesome too. Let me ask the
> question a different way: Do you think your company would be more
> attractive
> to a buyer if the CPE was owned by the company?
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Mike  wrote:
>
> > Oh heck no.  My balance sheet looks awesome; no debt; positive cash flow.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > At 03:56 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
> > >Do you feel it has a negative affect on your companies value if you dont
> > own
> > >the CPE?
> > >
> > >On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:
> > >
> > > > You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go
> > pick
> > > > up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for
> > > > replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on product such as
> modem
> > > > insurance.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > Michael Baird
> > > > > I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership
> > as
> > > > part
> > > > > of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the
> > past.
> > > > > With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to
> > where
> > > > > the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons
> > to
> > > > this
> > > > > strategy.
> > > > > -RickG
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
> > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > > > > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
> > > > >
> > > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > > > >
> > > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > > > >
> > > > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
> > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > > > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
> > > >
> > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > > >
> > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > > >
> > > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > >WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > >http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> >
> >
> > >
> > >WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > >
> > >Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > >http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > >
> > >Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> >
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> --

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[Travis Johnson]

Wow... Verizon is screwing you... my family has 5 lines, 1200 minutes
shared (national with carryover), unlimited text mesages and pics and I
pay $165 per month total (including all taxes, surcharges, etc.).
That's with AT&T even.

Travis
Microserv

Mike wrote:

  There are those (the 5%?) who will just try to max out the pipe all 
the time if that's what they perceive they are paying for.

This thread is making me think through some of the cob webs which are 
rising uses on ALL of our networks.  Christmas is coming, so are new 
game consoles.

I constantly look at my Verizon bill and try to figure out how to 
trim it; I can't.  Four phones, national plan, unlimited 
texting/pictures, 1200 shared minutes; we pay about $240.00 per 
month, or about $60.00 per phone.  I view that as obscene, but also 
feel somewhat trapped.  Verizon, ex-Alltel, ex-GTE, has the best 
network between Iowa and Florida where my phones reside.

We've weaned ourselves away from the local rapacious monopolist -- 
Iowa Telecom -- but still throw money at Verizon and Dish network 
every month.  If I wasn't a Hawkeye fan, I'd toss Dish out too, but I 
can't get the Big 10 network over-the-air.

My point is, as far as communications costs go, Internet, if we were 
a customer instead of the vendor, would be a small portion of total 
monthly costs.  Maybe it is time to rethink the whole 
paradigm.  Except, if I make a bold move, competition would have to 
do the same thing, or I'd lose customers.

I tried a tiered service once.  My basic contract says 512 kbps.  I 
let them burst to 2 or 4 M, whatever the pipe will let them do at the 
moment.  If they have a persistent connection, and the pipe gets 
congested, I throttle them back by delaying packets.  When I tried to 
sell tiered service with escalating minimum guarantees, I had few takers.

Most of my customers are rural, unsophisticated, and bursty 
users.  The business customers pay more and expect that to be the 
case.  There seems to be a pain threshold of $45.00 for rural 
residential users.

Mike

At 08:45 AM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
  
  
Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.

On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:



  Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you " guaranteed
minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but
the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when
their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in.
I
find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can
be delivered.

BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money
since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an
non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive market
that actually makes money (bottom line).


On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker 
wrote:

  
  
Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and
even tested it for a bit.

Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I, myself,

  
  being
  
  
a
fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited
plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan.  I have
unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could pay for
unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too!

We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could

  
  activate
  
  
it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just
didn't
understand the concept.  People aren't used to it--most people got online
when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't
remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages.  Nobody knows what ISDN with

  
  300
  
  
hours is.

We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo.  This makes us the

  
  fastest
  
  
in the area, and the cheapest.  We have local sales, support and
installations.  We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer
three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps

  
  and
  
  
6Mbps.  If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. "normal
use") you'll always see the 12Mbps.  But once you fire up a torrent or
Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your
guaranteed minimum.  Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going

  
  to
  
  
6Mbps.  We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this
structure.

I'm hoping that the "big guys" do go to pay-per-use plans.  Just one more
way we can advertise and win against them.  "Tired of counting your bits
and
bytes?  We're unlimited"  Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded
with customers on their unlimited-everything service.

Just m

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[RickG]

Normally, I'd choose door #2. In addition, the lease payment is full tax
deduction. I like many aspects of leasing. But, you better have a good
business plan because if you lose subs or service pricing goes down you
could be caught in an negative cash flow very quickly. Also, what if you
need to forklift upgrade before the lease is up? Or you have a mass amount
of equipment go bad because of something like a lightning storm? Depending
on where things are with the company and the economy debt free may be best
at the time. Not arguing, just asking :)
-RickG

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 10:35 PM, Chuck Hogg  wrote:

> Let me ask you this though...
>
> Would you rather
>
> 1) Buy $5,000 worth of Canopy equipment per month at 25 installs per
> month (new $1,250 in revenue at $50/mth)
>
> - Or -
>
> 2) Obtain a lease at $3,000 per month for 100 installs per month ($5,000
> in revenue at $50/mth).  Essentially, you are putting $2k in the bank
> after paying $3k on the lease for 12 months then $5,000 per month after
> that.
>
> Take this as being done over 2 years.
>
> Option 1 has 600 customers paying $50 per month at $30k per month and is
> debt free.  After two years, if you were to attempt to value your
> company at $500-600 per sub, your company is worth 360k.
>
> Option 2 has 2400 customers paying $50 per month at $120k per month and
> is in debt (based on a rotating amortization schedule) in debt only
> $110k (doing it in my head, it's approximate).  After two years, if you
> were to attempt to value your company at $500-600 per sub, your company
> is worth $1.2 Million with a debt of $110k net $1.1 Million.
>
> These are based on $50 per month averages, some of you are more, some of
> you are less.  I learned this lesson from a friend of mine who told me
> the local cable co. is leasing every piece of equipment that goes to a
> customer.  That way they are never operating on negative cashflow while
> maximizing available customers.  Before I started leasing, I was Option
> 1.  After leasing, our available cash has increased greatly offering
> many company benefits, like increasing our footprint, new vehicles, etc.
> We pay for about half our monthly equipment by leasing.
>
> Regards,
> Chuck Hogg
> Shelby Broadband
> 502-722-9292
> ch...@shelbybb.com
> http://www.shelbybb.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 10:16 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?
>
> Oh heck no.  My balance sheet looks awesome; no debt; positive cash
> flow.
>
> Mike
>
> At 03:56 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
> >Do you feel it has a negative affect on your companies value if you
> dont own
> >the CPE?
> >
> >On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:
> >
> > > You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go
> pick
> > > up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for
> > > replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on product such as
> modem
> > > insurance.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Michael Baird
> > > > I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained
> ownership as
> > > part
> > > > of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the
> past.
> > > > With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that
> to where
> > > > the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and
> cons to
> > > this
> > > > strategy.
> > > > -RickG
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
> 
> > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > > > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
> 
> > > >
> > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > > >
> > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > > >
> > > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> 
> 
> > > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > >
> > >
> >
> 
> 
> > >
> > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > >
> > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > >
> > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> > >
> >
> >
> >---
> -
> >WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >http://signup.wispa.org/
> >---
> -
> >
> >WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> >Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> >Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
> --

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Mike]

Interesting way to look at it Chuck.  I have this simple aversion to 
acquiring debt.  If the customer pays a capital fee up front to cover 
equipment costs, but never really owns it, I never have to pay lease 
charges.  I own all of my towers so pay no rent there.  I have not 
entertained leasing other equipment, but may a vehicle next 
year.  APs and network equipment are cheap enough these days we just 
buy them and depreciate them on our Federal return.

Of course, I may change my mind once everything has been depreciated 
and I end up paying more taxes.  The hope is customer count will 
increase by then and that paying more taxes becomes a "high class" problem.

Mike

At 09:35 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>Let me ask you this though...
>
>Would you rather
>
>1) Buy $5,000 worth of Canopy equipment per month at 25 installs per
>month (new $1,250 in revenue at $50/mth)
>
>- Or -
>
>2) Obtain a lease at $3,000 per month for 100 installs per month ($5,000
>in revenue at $50/mth).  Essentially, you are putting $2k in the bank
>after paying $3k on the lease for 12 months then $5,000 per month after
>that.
>
>Take this as being done over 2 years.
>
>Option 1 has 600 customers paying $50 per month at $30k per month and is
>debt free.  After two years, if you were to attempt to value your
>company at $500-600 per sub, your company is worth 360k.
>
>Option 2 has 2400 customers paying $50 per month at $120k per month and
>is in debt (based on a rotating amortization schedule) in debt only
>$110k (doing it in my head, it's approximate).  After two years, if you
>were to attempt to value your company at $500-600 per sub, your company
>is worth $1.2 Million with a debt of $110k net $1.1 Million.
>
>These are based on $50 per month averages, some of you are more, some of
>you are less.  I learned this lesson from a friend of mine who told me
>the local cable co. is leasing every piece of equipment that goes to a
>customer.  That way they are never operating on negative cashflow while
>maximizing available customers.  Before I started leasing, I was Option
>1.  After leasing, our available cash has increased greatly offering
>many company benefits, like increasing our footprint, new vehicles, etc.
>We pay for about half our monthly equipment by leasing.
>
>Regards,
>Chuck Hogg
>Shelby Broadband
>502-722-9292
>ch...@shelbybb.com
>http://www.shelbybb.com
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
>Behalf Of Mike
>Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 10:16 PM
>To: WISPA General List
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?
>
>Oh heck no.  My balance sheet looks awesome; no debt; positive cash
>flow.
>
>Mike
>
>At 03:56 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
> >Do you feel it has a negative affect on your companies value if you
>dont own
> >the CPE?
> >
> >On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:
> >
> > > You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go
>pick
> > > up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for
> > > replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on product such as
>modem
> > > insurance.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Michael Baird
> > > > I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained
>ownership as
> > > part
> > > > of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the
>past.
> > > > With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that
>to where
> > > > the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and
>cons to
> > > this
> > > > strategy.
> > > > -RickG
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > > > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> > > >
> > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > > >
> > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > > >
> > > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> > > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
> > >
> > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > >
> > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > >
> > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> > >
> >
> >
> >---
>-
> >WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >http://signup.wispa.org/
> >---
>-
> >
> >WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> >Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> >Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wirel

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[eje]

My personal opinion is that it would be more attractive if I got the cpe as 
part of a purchase of a company no matter equipment. On another note I have 
never had anyone wanting to buy the CPE to get out of a 1 year contract.  The 
only thing preventing people to signup is the 99 install fee is to high but 
generally all people come back after a few months with the $99 in hand because 
they couldn't get a better deal and none would consider to pay $200+ or so for 
install and cpe. 

/Eje
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-Original Message-
From: RickG 
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 23:26:45 
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

Mike, Fortunately our balance sheet looks awesome too. Let me ask the
question a different way: Do you think your company would be more attractive
to a buyer if the CPE was owned by the company?

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Mike  wrote:

> Oh heck no.  My balance sheet looks awesome; no debt; positive cash flow.
>
> Mike
>
> At 03:56 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
> >Do you feel it has a negative affect on your companies value if you dont
> own
> >the CPE?
> >
> >On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:
> >
> > > You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go
> pick
> > > up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for
> > > replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on product such as modem
> > > insurance.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Michael Baird
> > > > I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership
> as
> > > part
> > > > of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the
> past.
> > > > With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to
> where
> > > > the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons
> to
> > > this
> > > > strategy.
> > > > -RickG
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
> > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > > > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
> > > >
> > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > > >
> > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > > >
> > > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> 
> > > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > >
> > >
> >
> 
> > >
> > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > >
> > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > >
> > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> > >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> >
> >
> >WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> >Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> >Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Mike]

I don't think so.  I could come up with some sort of number for value 
for CPE I suppose, but a buyer would look at tower assets, all mine, 
radio equipment, all mine and cash flow.  The pencil would dwell on 
the cash flow.

For me, this is the best route.  This IS my retirement, so I'm not 
looking to build and sell.  I want a steady income so I can age and 
enjoy gracefully.  I have no illusions I will get rich at this; 
merely comfortable.

Mike


At 10:26 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>Mike, Fortunately our balance sheet looks awesome too. Let me ask the
>question a different way: Do you think your company would be more attractive
>to a buyer if the CPE was owned by the company?
>
>On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Mike  wrote:
>
> > Oh heck no.  My balance sheet looks awesome; no debt; positive cash flow.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > At 03:56 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
> > >Do you feel it has a negative affect on your companies value if you dont
> > own
> > >the CPE?
> > >
> > >On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:
> > >
> > > > You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go
> > pick
> > > > up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for
> > > > replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on product such as modem
> > > > insurance.
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > Michael Baird
> > > > > I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership
> > as
> > > > part
> > > > > of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the
> > past.
> > > > > With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to
> > where
> > > > > the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons
> > to
> > > > this
> > > > > strategy.
> > > > > -RickG
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> 
> > > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > > > > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> 
> > > > >
> > > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > > > >
> > > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > > > >
> > > > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> 
> > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > > > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > 
> 
> > > >
> > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > > >
> > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > > >
> > > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >- 
> ---
> > >WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > >http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> > >- 
> ---
> > >
> > >WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > >
> > >Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > >http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > >
> > >Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> > 
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
>
>
>
>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>http://signup.wispa.org/
>
>
>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/





WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[RickG]

Mike, Fortunately our balance sheet looks awesome too. Let me ask the
question a different way: Do you think your company would be more attractive
to a buyer if the CPE was owned by the company?

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 10:15 PM, Mike  wrote:

> Oh heck no.  My balance sheet looks awesome; no debt; positive cash flow.
>
> Mike
>
> At 03:56 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
> >Do you feel it has a negative affect on your companies value if you dont
> own
> >the CPE?
> >
> >On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:
> >
> > > You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go
> pick
> > > up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for
> > > replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on product such as modem
> > > insurance.
> > >
> > > Regards
> > > Michael Baird
> > > > I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership
> as
> > > part
> > > > of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the
> past.
> > > > With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to
> where
> > > > the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons
> to
> > > this
> > > > strategy.
> > > > -RickG
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
> > > > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > > > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > > >
> > >
> >
> 
> > > >
> > > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > > >
> > > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > > >
> > > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> 
> > > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > >
> > >
> >
> 
> > >
> > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > >
> > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > >
> > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> > >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> >
> >
> >WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> >Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> >Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[RickG]

I'm not a CPA by any means but the moment CPE became available for less than
a couple hundred dollars, it made total sense to expense it. If I understand
correctly, for tax purposes, capitol equipment utilizing a depreciation
schedule was really meant for high dollar items that last years.
If I understand your post correctly, you are expensing the equipment on day
one which would be a direct tax deduction for the taxable year and it
remains company property. Thats the way we are doing it. Unfortunately,
depending on the state, you have to pay property tax on it. With lower CPE
cost and lower life expectancy, at some point it may make more sense to
either sell it or give it away as part of the service package with the
customer. Then again, if you are planning to sell at some point, the
equipment does add value to the company. Thats what I am exploring.
-RickG

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 10:14 PM, Mike  wrote:

> Radio equipment is on an accelerated depreciation schedule.  I don't
> capitalize customer equipment; it's a cost for them to
> "join."  Instead, it's taxable for the state, and doesn't appear on
> my books as equipment.  It is NOT an expense for the company.
>
> Unless you count my initial startup costs which were borne in cash by
> the company, I incur no debt and am profitable.  I deduct REAL
> capital expenditures (tools, APs, computers, routers ...)
>
> Mike
>
>
> At 03:52 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
> >What do you mean you dont keep CPE on the books?
> >
> >On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Mike  wrote:
> >
> > > I made a decision when I founded this company that I wouldn't keep
> > > CPE on the books.  I extract a capital fee on day one for the REAL
> > > cost of CPE and cabling, mount et al.  I maintain ownership.
> > >
> > > It's like joining a health club; you pay an initiation fee.  When you
> > > quit, you don't get to take the universal gym home with you.  They
> > > comprehend this ideology and play along.  I usually get them to sign
> > > a 2 year contract by telling them I can't raise their rates for 24
> months.
> > >
> > > MIke
> > >
> > >
> > > At 02:24 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
> > > >I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as
> > > part
> > > >of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the
> past.
> > > >With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to
> where
> > > >the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to
> > > this
> > > >strategy.
> > > >-RickG
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > >-
> > ---
> > > >WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > > >http://signup.wispa.org/
> > >
> > > >-
> > ---
> > > >
> > > >WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > > >
> > > >Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > >http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > > >
> > > >Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> 
> > > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > >
> > >
> >
> 
> > >
> > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > >
> > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > >
> > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> > >
> >
> >
>
> >
> >WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> >
> >
> >WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> >Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> >Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[RickG]

I agree with that on a Canopy system or other high dollar CPE WISP. But,
what about a WISP using low dollar equipment. Does it matter then?

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:40 PM, Chuck Hogg  wrote:

> Absolutely, because the customer is now not worth as much.  Kind of the
> same thing when evaluating a network, a Canopy Network will draw much
> more $ than a Ubiquiti network if there is a sale.
>
> Regards,
> Chuck Hogg
> Shelby Broadband
> 502-722-9292
> ch...@shelbybb.com
> http://www.shelbybb.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of RickG
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:57 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?
>
> Do you feel it has a negative affect on your companies value if you dont
> own
> the CPE?
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:
>
> > You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go
> pick
> > up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for
> > replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on product such as modem
> > insurance.
> >
> > Regards
> > Michael Baird
> > > I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership
> as
> > part
> > > of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the
> past.
> > > With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to
> where
> > > the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons
> to
> > this
> > > strategy.
> > > -RickG
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> 
> 
> > > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > >
> >
> 
> 
> > >
> > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > >
> > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > >
> > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> >
> 
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[RickG]

IF you have competition of the WISP sort that is :)

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Chuck Hogg  wrote:

> Biggest Con: Competitor can now come in and take control of your
> equipment and say "Call them and tell them you are with us now".
>
> Regards,
> Chuck Hogg
> Shelby Broadband
> 502-722-9292
> ch...@shelbybb.com
> http://www.shelbybb.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of RickG
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 3:24 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?
>
> I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as
> part
> of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
> With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to
> where
> the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to
> this
> strategy.
> -RickG
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[RickG]

Marlon,

I'm assuming that since you have metered billing, you dont have to worry
about shaping their bandwidth at the CPE then?

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:37 PM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

> We put THEIR password on all radios.  They can move to a new company any
> time they want.  It's a good sales thing for us actually.  No contracts and
> they own the radio.  The only reason for them to stay with us is that we're
> doing a good job.  The customers out here eat that logic up!
> marlon
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Jayson Baker" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 12:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?
>
>
> > Only drawback I've seen to them buying it is that if you have
> confidential
> > configuration information in it, and the customer demands access to it
> > since
> > "they bought it"
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:24 PM, RickG  wrote:
> >
> >> I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as
> >> part
> >> of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
> >> With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to
> where
> >> the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to
> >> this
> >> strategy.
> >> -RickG
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 
> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >> http://signup.wispa.org/
> >>
> >>
> 
> >>
> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >>
> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >>
> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Government Loans and/or Grants

[RickG]

I let you know what I find out.

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:36 PM, Chuck Hogg  wrote:

> Maybe he is talking about how the Flemming Mason (Altius) guys that went
> BTOP/BIP on the four surrounding counties.  I have looked into this many
> times, and haven't been able to find anything about it.  3 houses down
> is our State Rep, and I have asked him a few times as well, and he isn't
> aware of it.
>
> Regards,
> Chuck Hogg
> Shelby Broadband
> 502-722-9292
> ch...@shelbybb.com
> http://www.shelbybb.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of RickG
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 3:19 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] Government Loans and/or Grants
>
> OK, so one of my subscribers happens to be close to the Governor. He
> claims
> there is grant money (not loans) available to build out wireless in the
> 4
> adjacent counties to ours. He also claims there are no strings attached.
> I've been against the "Obama money" on a number of different levels but
> the
> biggest reason are due to the strings. Does this grant sound to good to
> be
> true? -RickG
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Chuck Hogg]

Let me ask you this though...

Would you rather

1) Buy $5,000 worth of Canopy equipment per month at 25 installs per
month (new $1,250 in revenue at $50/mth)

- Or -

2) Obtain a lease at $3,000 per month for 100 installs per month ($5,000
in revenue at $50/mth).  Essentially, you are putting $2k in the bank
after paying $3k on the lease for 12 months then $5,000 per month after
that.

Take this as being done over 2 years.

Option 1 has 600 customers paying $50 per month at $30k per month and is
debt free.  After two years, if you were to attempt to value your
company at $500-600 per sub, your company is worth 360k.

Option 2 has 2400 customers paying $50 per month at $120k per month and
is in debt (based on a rotating amortization schedule) in debt only
$110k (doing it in my head, it's approximate).  After two years, if you
were to attempt to value your company at $500-600 per sub, your company
is worth $1.2 Million with a debt of $110k net $1.1 Million.

These are based on $50 per month averages, some of you are more, some of
you are less.  I learned this lesson from a friend of mine who told me
the local cable co. is leasing every piece of equipment that goes to a
customer.  That way they are never operating on negative cashflow while
maximizing available customers.  Before I started leasing, I was Option
1.  After leasing, our available cash has increased greatly offering
many company benefits, like increasing our footprint, new vehicles, etc.
We pay for about half our monthly equipment by leasing.

Regards,
Chuck Hogg
Shelby Broadband
502-722-9292
ch...@shelbybb.com
http://www.shelbybb.com


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 10:16 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

Oh heck no.  My balance sheet looks awesome; no debt; positive cash
flow.

Mike

At 03:56 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>Do you feel it has a negative affect on your companies value if you
dont own
>the CPE?
>
>On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:
>
> > You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go
pick
> > up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for
> > replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on product such as
modem
> > insurance.
> >
> > Regards
> > Michael Baird
> > > I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained
ownership as
> > part
> > > of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the
past.
> > > With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that
to where
> > > the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and
cons to
> > this
> > > strategy.
> > > -RickG
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
>


> > > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > >
> > 
>


> > >
> > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > >
> > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > >
> > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
>


> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> > 
>


> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
>
>
>---
-
>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>http://signup.wispa.org/
>---
-
>
>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/






WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Mike]

Huh?  I do capitalize tower equipment; just NOT CPE.

Mike

At 08:43 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>Yeah, till you have to forklift entire towers at a time.  Then what?  No
>more install fees, but you could easily have to replace thousands of dollars
>in hardware within week or months.
>marlon
>
>- Original Message -
>From: "Mike" 
>To: "WISPA General List" 
>Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:12 PM
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?
>
>
> >I made a decision when I founded this company that I wouldn't keep
> > CPE on the books.  I extract a capital fee on day one for the REAL
> > cost of CPE and cabling, mount et al.  I maintain ownership.
> >
> > It's like joining a health club; you pay an initiation fee.  When you
> > quit, you don't get to take the universal gym home with you.  They
> > comprehend this ideology and play along.  I usually get them to sign
> > a 2 year contract by telling them I can't raise their rates for 24 months.
> >
> > MIke
> >
> >
> > At 02:24 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
> >>I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as
> >>part
> >>of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
> >>With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where
> >>the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to
> >>this
> >>strategy.
> >>-RickG
> >>
> >>
> >>-- 
> --
> >>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >>http://signup.wispa.org/
> >>-- 
> --
> >>
> >>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >>
> >>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >>
> >>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > 
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>http://signup.wispa.org/
>
>
>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/





WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Mike]

Oh heck no.  My balance sheet looks awesome; no debt; positive cash flow.

Mike

At 03:56 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>Do you feel it has a negative affect on your companies value if you dont own
>the CPE?
>
>On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:
>
> > You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go pick
> > up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for
> > replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on product such as modem
> > insurance.
> >
> > Regards
> > Michael Baird
> > > I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as
> > part
> > > of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
> > > With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where
> > > the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to
> > this
> > > strategy.
> > > -RickG
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > 
> 
> > > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > >
> > 
> 
> > >
> > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > >
> > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > >
> > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> > 
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
>
>
>
>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>http://signup.wispa.org/
>
>
>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/





WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Mike]

Radio equipment is on an accelerated depreciation schedule.  I don't 
capitalize customer equipment; it's a cost for them to 
"join."  Instead, it's taxable for the state, and doesn't appear on 
my books as equipment.  It is NOT an expense for the company.

Unless you count my initial startup costs which were borne in cash by 
the company, I incur no debt and am profitable.  I deduct REAL 
capital expenditures (tools, APs, computers, routers ...)

Mike


At 03:52 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>What do you mean you dont keep CPE on the books?
>
>On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Mike  wrote:
>
> > I made a decision when I founded this company that I wouldn't keep
> > CPE on the books.  I extract a capital fee on day one for the REAL
> > cost of CPE and cabling, mount et al.  I maintain ownership.
> >
> > It's like joining a health club; you pay an initiation fee.  When you
> > quit, you don't get to take the universal gym home with you.  They
> > comprehend this ideology and play along.  I usually get them to sign
> > a 2 year contract by telling them I can't raise their rates for 24 months.
> >
> > MIke
> >
> >
> > At 02:24 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
> > >I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as
> > part
> > >of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
> > >With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where
> > >the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to
> > this
> > >strategy.
> > >-RickG
> > >
> > >
> >
> > >- 
> ---
> > >WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > >http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> > >- 
> ---
> > >
> > >WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > >
> > >Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > >http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > >
> > >Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> > 
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
>
>
>
>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>http://signup.wispa.org/
>
>
>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/





WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[Marlon K. Schafer]

We've tried to work with Canadian WISPs in the past.  There may even be a 
mailing list for it.

We've also helped write filings for industry Canada in the past.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "George Morris" 
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing


> WISPA appears to be American WISP-centric Ralph. How many members are 
> based
> outside the USA?
>
> What does WISPA do for non-American WISPs other than run a very good 
> public
> mailing list that provides some decent discussion on the business in 
> general
> terms?
>
> Please take a look at the WISPA web site and list 1 thing on it that is of
> specific benefit for a WISP outside the US?
>
> What percentage of WISPA membership dues are spent on efforts to influence
> the FCC?
>
> I'm not saying any of this is bad, just that the value equation is not the
> same if you are not based in the US.
>
> George
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Ralph
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 5:49 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
>
> Wisps is wisp-centric. There is no excuse not to support your
> organization.
>
> On Nov 8, 2009, at 4:08 PM, "George Morris" 
> wrote:
>
>> Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of
>> speedtest
>> servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA.
>>
>> We don't belong to WISPA because its FCC centric which really
>> doesn't help
>> us much. Much of the dues go to getting the FCC to move in a given
>> direction
>> which isn't of much direct help for Canadian WISPs.
>>
>> If we had some services of this kind that were maintained by the WISPA
>> team/members that would change my mind in a heartbeat.
>>
>> George
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
>> On
>> Behalf Of Mike
>> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:01 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
>>
>> I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list.  They run
>> speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will
>> throttle you.  Find those speedtest IPs and let em run.  Perception
>> is everything.  Give them the perception they get that all the time.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>> At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>>> No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and
>>> they are
>>> great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business
>>> of shared
>>> bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back
>>> to proper
>>> ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial
>>> sense.
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker 
>> wrote:
>>>
 Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.

 On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:

> Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you "
> guaranteed
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Marlon K. Schafer]

Yeah, till you have to forklift entire towers at a time.  Then what?  No 
more install fees, but you could easily have to replace thousands of dollars 
in hardware within week or months.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:12 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?


>I made a decision when I founded this company that I wouldn't keep
> CPE on the books.  I extract a capital fee on day one for the REAL
> cost of CPE and cabling, mount et al.  I maintain ownership.
>
> It's like joining a health club; you pay an initiation fee.  When you
> quit, you don't get to take the universal gym home with you.  They
> comprehend this ideology and play along.  I usually get them to sign
> a 2 year contract by telling them I can't raise their rates for 24 months.
>
> MIke
>
>
> At 02:24 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>>I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as 
>>part
>>of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
>>With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where
>>the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to 
>>this
>>strategy.
>>-RickG
>>
>>
>>
>>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>>
>>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[Marlon K. Schafer]

What country are you in George?
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "George Morris" 
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:08 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing


> Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of speedtest
> servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA.
>
> We don't belong to WISPA because its FCC centric which really doesn't help
> us much. Much of the dues go to getting the FCC to move in a given 
> direction
> which isn't of much direct help for Canadian WISPs.
>
> If we had some services of this kind that were maintained by the WISPA
> team/members that would change my mind in a heartbeat.
>
> George
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:01 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
>
> I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list.  They run
> speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will
> throttle you.  Find those speedtest IPs and let em run.  Perception
> is everything.  Give them the perception they get that all the time.
>
> Mike
>
> At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>>No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are
>>great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of 
>>shared
>>bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to 
>>proper
>>ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense.
>>
>>On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker 
> wrote:
>>
>> > Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
>> >
>> > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
>> >
>> > > Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you " 
>> > > guaranteed
>> > > minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
>> > > 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm 
>> > > wrong
>> > but
>> > > the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers
> when
>> > > their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can 
>> > > come
>> > in.
>> > > I
>> > > find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if 
>> > > it
>> > can
>> > > be delivered.
>> > >
>> > > BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost
> money
>> > > since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an
>> > > non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive
> market
>> > > that actually makes money (bottom line).
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker 
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple 
>> > > > years,
>> > and
>> > > > even tested it for a bit.
>> > > >
>> > > > Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I, 
>> > > > myself,
>> > > being
>> > > > a
>> > > > fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an
>> > unlimited
>> > > > plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan.  I
>> > have
>> > > > unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could pay 
>> > > > for
>> > > > unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too!
>> > > >
>> > > > We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could
>> > > activate
>> > > > it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, and people
> just
>> > > > didn't
>> > > > understand the concept.  People aren't used to it--most people got
>> > online
>> > > > when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and
> don't
>> > > > remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages.  Nobody knows what ISDN
> with
>> > > 300
>> > > > hours is.
>> > > >
>> > > > We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo.  This makes us the
>> > > fastest
>> > > > in the area, and the cheapest.  We have local sales, support and
>> > > > installations.  We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we
> offer
>> > > > three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps,
> 4Mbps
>> > > and
>> > > > 6Mbps.  If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e.
>> > "normal
>> > > > use") you'll always see the 12Mbps.  But once you fire up a torrent
> or
>> > > > Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you 
>> > > > get
>> > your
>> > > > guaranteed minimum.  Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again
>> > going
>> > > to
>> > > > 6Mbps.  We have never had a complaint about speed or price with 
>> > > > this
>> > > > structure.
>> > > >
>> > > > I'm hoping that the "big guys" do go to pay-per-use plans.  Just 
>> > > > one
>> > more
>> > > > way we can advertise and win against them.  "Tired of counting your
>> > bits
>> > > > and
>> > > > bytes?  We're unlimited"  Look at Cricket wireless--they've just
>> > exploded
>> > > > with customers on their unlimited-everything service.
>> > > >
>> > > > Just my 2 cents
>> > > >
>> > > > Jayson
>> > > >
>> > > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson  
>> > > > wro

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Chuck Hogg]

Absolutely, because the customer is now not worth as much.  Kind of the
same thing when evaluating a network, a Canopy Network will draw much
more $ than a Ubiquiti network if there is a sale. 

Regards,
Chuck Hogg
Shelby Broadband
502-722-9292
ch...@shelbybb.com
http://www.shelbybb.com


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:57 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

Do you feel it has a negative affect on your companies value if you dont
own
the CPE?

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:

> You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go
pick
> up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for
> replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on product such as modem
> insurance.
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
> > I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership
as
> part
> > of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the
past.
> > With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to
where
> > the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons
to
> this
> > strategy.
> > -RickG
> >
> >
> >
>


> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
>


> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
>
>
>
>
>


> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
>


>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Chuck Hogg]

Biggest Con: Competitor can now come in and take control of your
equipment and say "Call them and tell them you are with us now".

Regards,
Chuck Hogg
Shelby Broadband
502-722-9292
ch...@shelbybb.com
http://www.shelbybb.com


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 3:24 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as
part
of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to
where
the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to
this
strategy.
-RickG




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Marlon K. Schafer]

We put THEIR password on all radios.  They can move to a new company any 
time they want.  It's a good sales thing for us actually.  No contracts and 
they own the radio.  The only reason for them to stay with us is that we're 
doing a good job.  The customers out here eat that logic up!
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Jayson Baker" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?


> Only drawback I've seen to them buying it is that if you have confidential
> configuration information in it, and the customer demands access to it 
> since
> "they bought it"
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:24 PM, RickG  wrote:
>
>> I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as 
>> part
>> of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
>> With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where
>> the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to 
>> this
>> strategy.
>> -RickG
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Government Loans and/or Grants

[Chuck Hogg]

Maybe he is talking about how the Flemming Mason (Altius) guys that went
BTOP/BIP on the four surrounding counties.  I have looked into this many
times, and haven't been able to find anything about it.  3 houses down
is our State Rep, and I have asked him a few times as well, and he isn't
aware of it.

Regards,
Chuck Hogg
Shelby Broadband
502-722-9292
ch...@shelbybb.com
http://www.shelbybb.com


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 3:19 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Government Loans and/or Grants

OK, so one of my subscribers happens to be close to the Governor. He
claims
there is grant money (not loans) available to build out wireless in the
4
adjacent counties to ours. He also claims there are no strings attached.
I've been against the "Obama money" on a number of different levels but
the
biggest reason are due to the strings. Does this grant sound to good to
be
true? -RickG




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Marlon K. Schafer]

We've always sold the gear to the customers.

We don't have to pay property tax on it that way.

They pay for the upgrades, we don't have to.  (Though a change from us that 
causes 2 year old cpe to quit working is a case where we'll replace the gear 
at no charge.  That or something close to that...)

We probably have fewer customers due to this but I think we have higher 
quality customers.  Those that can't (or won't, really doesn't matter which) 
$200 to $300 won't value our $35 to $40 service either.  So far, the low 
ball customers are often the ones that want everything for nothing anyway.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "RickG" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 12:24 PM
Subject: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?


> I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as 
> part
> of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
> With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where
> the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to 
> this
> strategy.
> -RickG
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/ 




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[Jonathan Schmidt]

When browsing DSLREPORTS forums, one can see that it has become a game for
some:  "Who can download the most in a month."  With some high speed cable
operator forums, you can see Terabytes++ beating terabytes+ as useless
garbage is downloaded for the game.  It's like leaving your water hose on
to see who can fill a lake first.  Perhaps that may point to a solution.

Geeze..

. . . J o n a t h a n

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Marco Coelho
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 5:23 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

Here's some quick numbers off my network:

for the last 8 days
71% of customers downloaded less than 1 GByte of Data.
The top 10% all exceeded 2 GB
The top 5% all exceeded 4.4 GB
The top 1% exceeded 10 GB



Marco



On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:08 PM, George Morris 
wrote:
> Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of
> speedtest servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA.
>
> We don't belong to WISPA because its FCC centric which really doesn't
> help us much. Much of the dues go to getting the FCC to move in a
> given direction which isn't of much direct help for Canadian WISPs.
>
> If we had some services of this kind that were maintained by the WISPA
> team/members that would change my mind in a heartbeat.
>
> George
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]
> On Behalf Of Mike
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:01 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
>
> I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list.  They run
> speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will
> throttle you.  Find those speedtest IPs and let em run.  Perception is
> everything.  Give them the perception they get that all the time.
>
> Mike
>
> At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>>No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they
>>are great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business
>>of shared bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes
>>back to proper ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make
financial sense.
>>
>>On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker 
> wrote:
>>
>> > Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
>> >
>> > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
>> >
>> > > Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you "
>> > > guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and 6Mbps" at those low
>> > > rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong
>> > but
>> > > the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy
>> > > subscribers
> when
>> > > their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can
>> > > come
>> > in.
>> > > I
>> > > find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds
>> > > if it
>> > can
>> > > be delivered.
>> > >
>> > > BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost
> money
>> > > since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of
>> > > an non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a
>> > > competitive
> market
>> > > that actually makes money (bottom line).
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker
>> > > 
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple
>> > > > years,
>> > and
>> > > > even tested it for a bit.
>> > > >
>> > > > Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I,
>> > > > myself,
>> > > being
>> > > > a
>> > > > fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an
>> > unlimited
>> > > > plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use
>> > > > plan.  I
>> > have
>> > > > unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could
>> > > > pay for unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too!
>> > > >
>> > > > We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and
>> > > > could
>> > > activate
>> > > > it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, and
>> > > > people
> just
>> > > > didn't
>> > > > understand the concept.  People aren't used to it--most people
>> > > > got
>> > online
>> > > > when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!),
>> > > > and
> don't
>> > > > remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages.  Nobody knows what
>> > > > ISDN
> with
>> > > 300
>> > > > hours is.
>> > > >
>> > > > We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo.  This makes us
>> > > > the
>> > > fastest
>> > > > in the area, and the cheapest.  We have local sales, support
>> > > > and installations.  We decided the way to win is to shape
>> > > > traffic--we
> offer
>> > > > three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of
>> > > > 1.5Mbps,
> 4Mbps
>> > > and
>> > > > 6Mbps.  If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e.
>> > "normal
>> > > > use") you'll always see the 12Mbps.  But once you fire up a
>> > > > torrent
> or
>> > > > Netflix, you only get t

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[Marco Coelho]

Here's some quick numbers off my network:

for the last 8 days
71% of customers downloaded less than 1 GByte of Data.
The top 10% all exceeded 2 GB
The top 5% all exceeded 4.4 GB
The top 1% exceeded 10 GB



Marco



On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:08 PM, George Morris  wrote:
> Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of speedtest
> servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA.
>
> We don't belong to WISPA because its FCC centric which really doesn't help
> us much. Much of the dues go to getting the FCC to move in a given direction
> which isn't of much direct help for Canadian WISPs.
>
> If we had some services of this kind that were maintained by the WISPA
> team/members that would change my mind in a heartbeat.
>
> George
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Mike
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:01 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
>
> I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list.  They run
> speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will
> throttle you.  Find those speedtest IPs and let em run.  Perception
> is everything.  Give them the perception they get that all the time.
>
> Mike
>
> At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>>No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are
>>great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared
>>bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper
>>ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense.
>>
>>On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker 
> wrote:
>>
>> > Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
>> >
>> > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
>> >
>> > > Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you " guaranteed
>> > > minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
>> > > 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong
>> > but
>> > > the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers
> when
>> > > their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come
>> > in.
>> > > I
>> > > find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it
>> > can
>> > > be delivered.
>> > >
>> > > BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost
> money
>> > > since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an
>> > > non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive
> market
>> > > that actually makes money (bottom line).
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker 
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years,
>> > and
>> > > > even tested it for a bit.
>> > > >
>> > > > Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I, myself,
>> > > being
>> > > > a
>> > > > fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an
>> > unlimited
>> > > > plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan.  I
>> > have
>> > > > unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could pay for
>> > > > unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too!
>> > > >
>> > > > We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could
>> > > activate
>> > > > it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, and people
> just
>> > > > didn't
>> > > > understand the concept.  People aren't used to it--most people got
>> > online
>> > > > when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and
> don't
>> > > > remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages.  Nobody knows what ISDN
> with
>> > > 300
>> > > > hours is.
>> > > >
>> > > > We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo.  This makes us the
>> > > fastest
>> > > > in the area, and the cheapest.  We have local sales, support and
>> > > > installations.  We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we
> offer
>> > > > three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps,
> 4Mbps
>> > > and
>> > > > 6Mbps.  If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e.
>> > "normal
>> > > > use") you'll always see the 12Mbps.  But once you fire up a torrent
> or
>> > > > Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get
>> > your
>> > > > guaranteed minimum.  Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again
>> > going
>> > > to
>> > > > 6Mbps.  We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this
>> > > > structure.
>> > > >
>> > > > I'm hoping that the "big guys" do go to pay-per-use plans.  Just one
>> > more
>> > > > way we can advertise and win against them.  "Tired of counting your
>> > bits
>> > > > and
>> > > > bytes?  We're unlimited"  Look at Cricket wireless--they've just
>> > exploded
>> > > > with customers on their unlimited-everything service.
>> > > >
>> > > > Just my 2 cents
>> > > >
>> > > > Jayson
>> > > >
>> > > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson  wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > >  The cellular gu

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[George Morris]

WISPA appears to be American WISP-centric Ralph. How many members are based
outside the USA?

What does WISPA do for non-American WISPs other than run a very good public
mailing list that provides some decent discussion on the business in general
terms?

Please take a look at the WISPA web site and list 1 thing on it that is of
specific benefit for a WISP outside the US?

What percentage of WISPA membership dues are spent on efforts to influence
the FCC?

I'm not saying any of this is bad, just that the value equation is not the
same if you are not based in the US.

George

 

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Ralph
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 5:49 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

Wisps is wisp-centric. There is no excuse not to support your  
organization.

On Nov 8, 2009, at 4:08 PM, "George Morris"   
wrote:

> Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of  
> speedtest
> servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA.
>
> We don't belong to WISPA because its FCC centric which really  
> doesn't help
> us much. Much of the dues go to getting the FCC to move in a given  
> direction
> which isn't of much direct help for Canadian WISPs.
>
> If we had some services of this kind that were maintained by the WISPA
> team/members that would change my mind in a heartbeat.
>
> George
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
> On
> Behalf Of Mike
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:01 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
>
> I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list.  They run
> speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will
> throttle you.  Find those speedtest IPs and let em run.  Perception
> is everything.  Give them the perception they get that all the time.
>
> Mike
>
> At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>> No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and  
>> they are
>> great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business  
>> of shared
>> bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back  
>> to proper
>> ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial  
>> sense.
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker 
> wrote:
>>
>>> Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
>>>
 Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you "  
 guaranteed




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[Ralph]

Wisps is wisp-centric. There is no excuse not to support your  
organization.

On Nov 8, 2009, at 4:08 PM, "George Morris"   
wrote:

> Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of  
> speedtest
> servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA.
>
> We don't belong to WISPA because its FCC centric which really  
> doesn't help
> us much. Much of the dues go to getting the FCC to move in a given  
> direction
> which isn't of much direct help for Canadian WISPs.
>
> If we had some services of this kind that were maintained by the WISPA
> team/members that would change my mind in a heartbeat.
>
> George
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org]  
> On
> Behalf Of Mike
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:01 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
>
> I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list.  They run
> speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will
> throttle you.  Find those speedtest IPs and let em run.  Perception
> is everything.  Give them the perception they get that all the time.
>
> Mike
>
> At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>> No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and  
>> they are
>> great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business  
>> of shared
>> bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back  
>> to proper
>> ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial  
>> sense.
>>
>> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker 
> wrote:
>>
>>> Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
>>>
 Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you "  
 guaranteed



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[Gary Garrett]

Just a side note, the water meters were installed by mandate of the DEQ 
(Government Agency) They fixed it so the Utilities could not borrow 
money or apply for grants if they were not metered.
With the way our politics are going right now it may not be long before 
there is a Gov Agency making rules about the Internet. (Read FCC).



Travis Johnson wrote:
> It's been that way for 20+ years in this community (100+ homes). I don't 
> see it changing any time soon.
> 
> And just like internet, there are "heavy" water users (neighbors I see 
> with their sprinklers running almost 24 hours per day) and normal users 
> (like me) and light users (the yellow dead grass is the giveaway). You 
> take the "average" of all and divide the expenses. Is it fair? Probably 
> not. Is it worth installing $1,000 meters on every household in the 
> community? probably not... because then you have to hire a person to 
> check all the meters once a month... and any savings you may have had 
> are gone by paying a salary to a meter reader.
> 



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[RickG]

Do you feel it has a negative affect on your companies value if you dont own
the CPE?

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:

> You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go pick
> up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for
> replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on product such as modem
> insurance.
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
> > I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as
> part
> > of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
> > With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where
> > the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to
> this
> > strategy.
> > -RickG
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[RickG]

What do you mean you dont keep CPE on the books?

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Mike  wrote:

> I made a decision when I founded this company that I wouldn't keep
> CPE on the books.  I extract a capital fee on day one for the REAL
> cost of CPE and cabling, mount et al.  I maintain ownership.
>
> It's like joining a health club; you pay an initiation fee.  When you
> quit, you don't get to take the universal gym home with you.  They
> comprehend this ideology and play along.  I usually get them to sign
> a 2 year contract by telling them I can't raise their rates for 24 months.
>
> MIke
>
>
> At 02:24 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
> >I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as
> part
> >of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
> >With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where
> >the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to
> this
> >strategy.
> >-RickG
> >
> >
>
> >
> >WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> >
> >
> >WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> >Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> >Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[RickG]

Those are my exact thoughts.

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Michael Baird  wrote:

> You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go pick
> up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for
> replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on product such as modem
> insurance.
>
> Regards
> Michael Baird
> > I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as
> part
> > of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
> > With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where
> > the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to
> this
> > strategy.
> > -RickG
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[RickG]

Nathan, That is what we do now, charge a higher installation fee but there
are many drawbacks to that. Why do you say not to sell it to them?

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 3:41 PM, Nathan Stooke wrote:

> Hello,
>
>Do not sell it to them, just charge a higher setup fee.
>
>Thanks
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of RickG
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 2:24 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?
>
> I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as part
> of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
> With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where
> the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to this
> strategy.
> -RickG
>
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Jon Auer]

We sell the CPE and lock the customer out as a condition of it being
allowed on our network.

There is some interesting precedents where people purchased cable
modems and loaded their own config to get around speed limiting and
were then prosecuted for theft of service.

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 2:31 PM, Jayson Baker  wrote:
> Only drawback I've seen to them buying it is that if you have confidential
> configuration information in it, and the customer demands access to it since
> "they bought it"
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:24 PM, RickG  wrote:
>
>> I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as part
>> of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
>> With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where
>> the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to this
>> strategy.
>> -RickG
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Mike]

I made a decision when I founded this company that I wouldn't keep 
CPE on the books.  I extract a capital fee on day one for the REAL 
cost of CPE and cabling, mount et al.  I maintain ownership.

It's like joining a health club; you pay an initiation fee.  When you 
quit, you don't get to take the universal gym home with you.  They 
comprehend this ideology and play along.  I usually get them to sign 
a 2 year contract by telling them I can't raise their rates for 24 months.

MIke


At 02:24 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as part
>of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
>With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where
>the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to this
>strategy.
>-RickG
>
>
>
>WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>http://signup.wispa.org/
>
>
>WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/





WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[George Morris]

Amen. It would be a very handy thing to maintain that list of speedtest
servers centrally somewhere, perhaps within WISPA.

We don't belong to WISPA because its FCC centric which really doesn't help
us much. Much of the dues go to getting the FCC to move in a given direction
which isn't of much direct help for Canadian WISPs.

If we had some services of this kind that were maintained by the WISPA
team/members that would change my mind in a heartbeat.

George 

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Mike
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 4:01 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list.  They run 
speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will 
throttle you.  Find those speedtest IPs and let em run.  Perception 
is everything.  Give them the perception they get that all the time.

Mike

At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are
>great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared
>bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper
>ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense.
>
>On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker 
wrote:
>
> > Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
> >
> > > Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you " guaranteed
> > > minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
> > > 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong
> > but
> > > the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers
when
> > > their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come
> > in.
> > > I
> > > find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it
> > can
> > > be delivered.
> > >
> > > BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost
money
> > > since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an
> > > non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive
market
> > > that actually makes money (bottom line).
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years,
> > and
> > > > even tested it for a bit.
> > > >
> > > > Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I, myself,
> > > being
> > > > a
> > > > fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an
> > unlimited
> > > > plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan.  I
> > have
> > > > unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could pay for
> > > > unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too!
> > > >
> > > > We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could
> > > activate
> > > > it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, and people
just
> > > > didn't
> > > > understand the concept.  People aren't used to it--most people got
> > online
> > > > when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and
don't
> > > > remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages.  Nobody knows what ISDN
with
> > > 300
> > > > hours is.
> > > >
> > > > We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo.  This makes us the
> > > fastest
> > > > in the area, and the cheapest.  We have local sales, support and
> > > > installations.  We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we
offer
> > > > three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps,
4Mbps
> > > and
> > > > 6Mbps.  If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e.
> > "normal
> > > > use") you'll always see the 12Mbps.  But once you fire up a torrent
or
> > > > Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get
> > your
> > > > guaranteed minimum.  Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again
> > going
> > > to
> > > > 6Mbps.  We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this
> > > > structure.
> > > >
> > > > I'm hoping that the "big guys" do go to pay-per-use plans.  Just one
> > more
> > > > way we can advertise and win against them.  "Tired of counting your
> > bits
> > > > and
> > > > bytes?  We're unlimited"  Look at Cricket wireless--they've just
> > exploded
> > > > with customers on their unlimited-everything service.
> > > >
> > > > Just my 2 cents
> > > >
> > > > Jayson
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >  The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an
unlimited
> > > plan
> > > > > on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet
access
> > for
> > > > > $9.95/mo extra.
> > > > >
> > > > > People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to
be
> > > from
> > > > > month to month. Would you want that at your own home?
> > > > >
> > > > > Travis
> > > > > Microserv
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Gary Ga

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[Mike]

I have (hopefully) all the speedtest ips in the allow list.  They run 
speedtest real fast, but download video for an hour and it will 
throttle you.  Find those speedtest IPs and let em run.  Perception 
is everything.  Give them the perception they get that all the time.

Mike

At 12:25 PM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are
>great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared
>bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper
>ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense.
>
>On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker  wrote:
>
> > Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
> >
> > > Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you " guaranteed
> > > minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
> > > 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong
> > but
> > > the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when
> > > their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come
> > in.
> > > I
> > > find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it
> > can
> > > be delivered.
> > >
> > > BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money
> > > since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an
> > > non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive market
> > > that actually makes money (bottom line).
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years,
> > and
> > > > even tested it for a bit.
> > > >
> > > > Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I, myself,
> > > being
> > > > a
> > > > fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an
> > unlimited
> > > > plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan.  I
> > have
> > > > unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could pay for
> > > > unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too!
> > > >
> > > > We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could
> > > activate
> > > > it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just
> > > > didn't
> > > > understand the concept.  People aren't used to it--most people got
> > online
> > > > when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't
> > > > remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages.  Nobody knows what ISDN with
> > > 300
> > > > hours is.
> > > >
> > > > We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo.  This makes us the
> > > fastest
> > > > in the area, and the cheapest.  We have local sales, support and
> > > > installations.  We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer
> > > > three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps
> > > and
> > > > 6Mbps.  If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e.
> > "normal
> > > > use") you'll always see the 12Mbps.  But once you fire up a torrent or
> > > > Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get
> > your
> > > > guaranteed minimum.  Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again
> > going
> > > to
> > > > 6Mbps.  We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this
> > > > structure.
> > > >
> > > > I'm hoping that the "big guys" do go to pay-per-use plans.  Just one
> > more
> > > > way we can advertise and win against them.  "Tired of counting your
> > bits
> > > > and
> > > > bytes?  We're unlimited"  Look at Cricket wireless--they've just
> > exploded
> > > > with customers on their unlimited-everything service.
> > > >
> > > > Just my 2 cents
> > > >
> > > > Jayson
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >  The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited
> > > plan
> > > > > on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access
> > for
> > > > > $9.95/mo extra.
> > > > >
> > > > > People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be
> > > from
> > > > > month to month. Would you want that at your own home?
> > > > >
> > > > > Travis
> > > > > Microserv
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Gary Garrett wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > You sound like the cell phone company.
> > > > > I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by
> > the
> > > > > month while the cellular guys charge by the minute.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Travis Johnson wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >  Hi,
> > > > >
> > > > > You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius,
> > etc.)
> > > > > to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the
> > > > > phone calls from users that say "My computer wasn't even turned on
> > > > > during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere."  So,
> > > even
> > > > > that one extra phone ca

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Michael Baird]

You don't have to pay property tax on the CPE. You don't have to go pick 
up the device if the customer quits. You can charge the customer for 
replacement radios. You can offer a value add-on product such as modem 
insurance.

Regards
Michael Baird
> I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as part
> of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
> With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where
> the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to this
> strategy.
> -RickG
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>   




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Nathan Stooke]

Hello,

Do not sell it to them, just charge a higher setup fee.

Thanks


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 2:24 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as part
of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where
the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to this
strategy.
-RickG




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Government Loans and/or Grants

[richard sterne]

I would enquire further that wont cost you anything.

Richard

2009/11/8 RickG 

> OK, so one of my subscribers happens to be close to the Governor. He claims
> there is grant money (not loans) available to build out wireless in the 4
> adjacent counties to ours. He also claims there are no strings attached.
> I've been against the "Obama money" on a number of different levels but the
> biggest reason are due to the strings. Does this grant sound to good to be
> true? -RickG
>
>
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[Jayson Baker]

Only drawback I've seen to them buying it is that if you have confidential
configuration information in it, and the customer demands access to it since
"they bought it"

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:24 PM, RickG  wrote:

> I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as part
> of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
> With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where
> the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to this
> strategy.
> -RickG
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

[WISPA] CPE - who buys it?

[RickG]

I've always provided the CPE to the end user and retained ownership as part
of the service. That was mostly due to the high cost of CPE in the past.
With the advent of lower CPE cost, I'm considering changing that to where
the customer buys their own CPE. I'd like to hear the pros and cons to this
strategy.
-RickG



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

[WISPA] Government Loans and/or Grants

[RickG]

OK, so one of my subscribers happens to be close to the Governor. He claims
there is grant money (not loans) available to build out wireless in the 4
adjacent counties to ours. He also claims there are no strings attached.
I've been against the "Obama money" on a number of different levels but the
biggest reason are due to the strings. Does this grant sound to good to be
true? -RickG



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[RickG]

" We're going to have to learn a lot about that in a hurry."
Thats the way the technology industry has always been in the 30+ years I've
been a part of it.

You're definitely in a different boat than we are. We're as rural as it
gets. Bandwidth is worth more than gold, no density as far as subscribers
go, trees & hills & more trees, its a different animal. Either way, I'm
enjoying the topic and the input from everyone. -RickG

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 2:36 PM, George Morris wrote:

> Rick, I'm not nearly brave enough to claim this is going to handle all our
> future needs, but from what I've see so far its going to help a lot over
> the
> next 2-3 years.
>
> We've been playing with both the Ubiquiti stuff and the MikroTik stuff for
> many months now and we're encouraged that there is a future here.
>
> We need 5.4 certification, and we need to alter our business model for the
> Urban stuff to create cells that are no more than a couple of miles radius.
> We need to identify service areas with enough customer density to justify
> fibre close to the tower, but isolated enough that 5.x, particularly 5.4,
> is
> not going to be overrun in the next few years. There is no doubt that N is
> more sensitive to interference, at least that is the indication we have
> from
> our trials. No such thing as a free lunch I suspect, just like usual.
>
> We already have decent Internet fibre prices that will allow a
> Gigabit-capable tower in a high density area. I understand that everyone
> has
> a different environment to compete in, but ours is perhaps unusual in that
> the Cablecos and Telcos are introducing some pretty draconian bandwidth
> caps
> in their post-modern effort to stay profitable without investing in fibre
> to
> the premises. This appears to give us an opportunity to circumvent the
> traditional last mile and take the fight directly to the enemy.
>
> Couldn't even have dreamed about this a year ago, but now its looking
> frighteningly reasonable as a strategy.
>
> We do need to figure out how to do QoS properly at high bandwidths, we've
> been a bit cavalier about that in the past. Once you get up to a realistic
> 10Mbit or more to the customer on any kind of large scale deployment I
> think
> the rules of the game change. Everything you're working with gets bigger,
> faster and a lot more expensive on the back office end although the front
> end tower-related costs stay around the levels we are used to. We're going
> to have to learn a lot about that in a hurry.
>
> George
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of RickG
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 2:18 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
>
> George, I have not played with the N stuff. Mostly because I need to
> upgrade
> my towers. That is in the plans. Which is where this discussion s
> originating from. Anytime I spend money, I have to confirm it is worthwhile
> and will represent an ROI.  Yes, bandwidth is coming down ever so slowly
> (here anyways).
> So, what your saying is that the new equipment + lower bandwidth costs will
> handle all of our future needs?
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:37 PM, George Morris
> wrote:
>
> > Rick, there is a heck of a range of technology out there as you know.
> > Anything from the old Alvarion hoppers to the new stuff using N from
> > Ubiquiti and Mikrotik + dog.
> >
> > It isn't the same game anymore, provided you can get your Internet
> pipe(s)
> > at a reasonable price.
> >
> > Guaranteed bandwidth from a WISP is certainly do-able now, and the
> numbers
> > I've seen in this thread are on the low side. Have you played with the
> new
> > stuff that can actually deliver 100Mbits per AP? Its stunning. There are
> > still some rough edges in both the firmware and certification, but this
> is
> > the future. QoS is still an issue of course, the customer will eat
> whatever
> > we can give them and then some...
> >
> > George
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> > Behalf Of RickG
> > Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:25 PM
> > To: WISPA General List
> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
> >
> > No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they
> are
> > great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of
> shared
> > bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to
> proper
> > ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense.
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
> > >
> > > > Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you "
> guaranteed
> > > > minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
> > > > 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm
> wrong
> > > but
> > > > the problem I see is that you will end up

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[George Morris]

Rick, I'm not nearly brave enough to claim this is going to handle all our
future needs, but from what I've see so far its going to help a lot over the
next 2-3 years.

We've been playing with both the Ubiquiti stuff and the MikroTik stuff for
many months now and we're encouraged that there is a future here.

We need 5.4 certification, and we need to alter our business model for the
Urban stuff to create cells that are no more than a couple of miles radius.
We need to identify service areas with enough customer density to justify
fibre close to the tower, but isolated enough that 5.x, particularly 5.4, is
not going to be overrun in the next few years. There is no doubt that N is
more sensitive to interference, at least that is the indication we have from
our trials. No such thing as a free lunch I suspect, just like usual.

We already have decent Internet fibre prices that will allow a
Gigabit-capable tower in a high density area. I understand that everyone has
a different environment to compete in, but ours is perhaps unusual in that
the Cablecos and Telcos are introducing some pretty draconian bandwidth caps
in their post-modern effort to stay profitable without investing in fibre to
the premises. This appears to give us an opportunity to circumvent the
traditional last mile and take the fight directly to the enemy.

Couldn't even have dreamed about this a year ago, but now its looking
frighteningly reasonable as a strategy.

We do need to figure out how to do QoS properly at high bandwidths, we've
been a bit cavalier about that in the past. Once you get up to a realistic
10Mbit or more to the customer on any kind of large scale deployment I think
the rules of the game change. Everything you're working with gets bigger,
faster and a lot more expensive on the back office end although the front
end tower-related costs stay around the levels we are used to. We're going
to have to learn a lot about that in a hurry.

George 

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 2:18 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

George, I have not played with the N stuff. Mostly because I need to upgrade
my towers. That is in the plans. Which is where this discussion s
originating from. Anytime I spend money, I have to confirm it is worthwhile
and will represent an ROI.  Yes, bandwidth is coming down ever so slowly
(here anyways).
So, what your saying is that the new equipment + lower bandwidth costs will
handle all of our future needs?

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:37 PM, George Morris
wrote:

> Rick, there is a heck of a range of technology out there as you know.
> Anything from the old Alvarion hoppers to the new stuff using N from
> Ubiquiti and Mikrotik + dog.
>
> It isn't the same game anymore, provided you can get your Internet pipe(s)
> at a reasonable price.
>
> Guaranteed bandwidth from a WISP is certainly do-able now, and the numbers
> I've seen in this thread are on the low side. Have you played with the new
> stuff that can actually deliver 100Mbits per AP? Its stunning. There are
> still some rough edges in both the firmware and certification, but this is
> the future. QoS is still an issue of course, the customer will eat
whatever
> we can give them and then some...
>
> George
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of RickG
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:25 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
>
> No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are
> great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of
shared
> bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to
proper
> ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense.
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker 
> wrote:
>
> > Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
> >
> > > Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you " guaranteed
> > > minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
> > > 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong
> > but
> > > the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers
> when
> > > their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come
> > in.
> > > I
> > > find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it
> > can
> > > be delivered.
> > >
> > > BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost
money
> > > since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an
> > > non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive
> market
> > > that actually makes money (bottom line).
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years,
> > and
> > > > ev

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[RickG]

George, I have not played with the N stuff. Mostly because I need to upgrade
my towers. That is in the plans. Which is where this discussion s
originating from. Anytime I spend money, I have to confirm it is worthwhile
and will represent an ROI.  Yes, bandwidth is coming down ever so slowly
(here anyways).
So, what your saying is that the new equipment + lower bandwidth costs will
handle all of our future needs?

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:37 PM, George Morris wrote:

> Rick, there is a heck of a range of technology out there as you know.
> Anything from the old Alvarion hoppers to the new stuff using N from
> Ubiquiti and Mikrotik + dog.
>
> It isn't the same game anymore, provided you can get your Internet pipe(s)
> at a reasonable price.
>
> Guaranteed bandwidth from a WISP is certainly do-able now, and the numbers
> I've seen in this thread are on the low side. Have you played with the new
> stuff that can actually deliver 100Mbits per AP? Its stunning. There are
> still some rough edges in both the firmware and certification, but this is
> the future. QoS is still an issue of course, the customer will eat whatever
> we can give them and then some...
>
> George
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of RickG
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:25 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
>
> No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are
> great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared
> bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper
> ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense.
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker 
> wrote:
>
> > Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
> >
> > > Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you " guaranteed
> > > minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
> > > 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong
> > but
> > > the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers
> when
> > > their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come
> > in.
> > > I
> > > find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it
> > can
> > > be delivered.
> > >
> > > BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money
> > > since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an
> > > non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive
> market
> > > that actually makes money (bottom line).
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years,
> > and
> > > > even tested it for a bit.
> > > >
> > > > Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I, myself,
> > > being
> > > > a
> > > > fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an
> > unlimited
> > > > plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan.  I
> > have
> > > > unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could pay for
> > > > unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too!
> > > >
> > > > We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could
> > > activate
> > > > it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just
> > > > didn't
> > > > understand the concept.  People aren't used to it--most people got
> > online
> > > > when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and
> don't
> > > > remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages.  Nobody knows what ISDN
> with
> > > 300
> > > > hours is.
> > > >
> > > > We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo.  This makes us the
> > > fastest
> > > > in the area, and the cheapest.  We have local sales, support and
> > > > installations.  We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we
> offer
> > > > three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps,
> 4Mbps
> > > and
> > > > 6Mbps.  If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e.
> > "normal
> > > > use") you'll always see the 12Mbps.  But once you fire up a torrent
> or
> > > > Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get
> > your
> > > > guaranteed minimum.  Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again
> > going
> > > to
> > > > 6Mbps.  We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this
> > > > structure.
> > > >
> > > > I'm hoping that the "big guys" do go to pay-per-use plans.  Just one
> > more
> > > > way we can advertise and win against them.  "Tired of counting your
> > bits
> > > > and
> > > > bytes?  We're unlimited"  Look at Cricket wireless--they've just
> > exploded
> > > > with customers on their unlimited-everything service.
> > > >
> > > > Just my 2 cents
> > > >
> > > > Jayson
> > > >
> > > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > >  

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[RickG]

This is when I miss Charles Wu on this list. We built a comprehensive
spreadsheet together once showing real numbers. Of course that was a long
time ago and the numbers are obsolete. Perhaps its time to resurrect it? As
Marlon said, there is limited capacity. That statement applies to us in many
ways. So, unless you understand the limitations you cant predict QOS to your
customers or your financial stability. Think future! The issue here is
exponential network usage growth which will continue into the future. AFAIK
the only way to combat it is to prepare and that means understand how this
affects your business from a technical and financial standpoint. I could be
wrong, but considering all factors, I believe WISP's do not have the
capabilty to meet the future demand with the "all you can eat" model (Travis
excluded). So, something will have to be done. What, how, and when are the
questions that need answering. Dont get me wrong, I have never been a "sky
is falling" type of guy. I just like being proactive.
-RickG

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Josh Luthman wrote:

> You get what you pay for.
>
> On 11/8/09, RickG  wrote:
> > No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they
> are
> > great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of
> shared
> > bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to
> proper
> > ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense.
> >
> > On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
> >>
> >> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
> >>
> >> > Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you " guaranteed
> >> > minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
> >> > 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong
> >> but
> >> > the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers
> >> > when
> >> > their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come
> >> in.
> >> > I
> >> > find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it
> >> can
> >> > be delivered.
> >> >
> >> > BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost
> money
> >> > since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an
> >> > non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive
> market
> >> > that actually makes money (bottom line).
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker 
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years,
> >> and
> >> > > even tested it for a bit.
> >> > >
> >> > > Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I, myself,
> >> > being
> >> > > a
> >> > > fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an
> >> unlimited
> >> > > plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan.  I
> >> have
> >> > > unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could pay for
> >> > > unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too!
> >> > >
> >> > > We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could
> >> > activate
> >> > > it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, and people
> just
> >> > > didn't
> >> > > understand the concept.  People aren't used to it--most people got
> >> online
> >> > > when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and
> >> > > don't
> >> > > remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages.  Nobody knows what ISDN
> with
> >> > 300
> >> > > hours is.
> >> > >
> >> > > We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo.  This makes us the
> >> > fastest
> >> > > in the area, and the cheapest.  We have local sales, support and
> >> > > installations.  We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we
> >> > > offer
> >> > > three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps,
> 4Mbps
> >> > and
> >> > > 6Mbps.  If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e.
> >> "normal
> >> > > use") you'll always see the 12Mbps.  But once you fire up a torrent
> or
> >> > > Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get
> >> your
> >> > > guaranteed minimum.  Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again
> >> going
> >> > to
> >> > > 6Mbps.  We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this
> >> > > structure.
> >> > >
> >> > > I'm hoping that the "big guys" do go to pay-per-use plans.  Just one
> >> more
> >> > > way we can advertise and win against them.  "Tired of counting your
> >> bits
> >> > > and
> >> > > bytes?  We're unlimited"  Look at Cricket wireless--they've just
> >> exploded
> >> > > with customers on their unlimited-everything service.
> >> > >
> >> > > Just my 2 cents
> >> > >
> >> > > Jayson
> >> > >
> >> > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson 
> wrote:
> >> > >
> >> > > >  The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an
> unlimited
> >> > plan
> >> > > > on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[RickG]

Travis, I do agree with you that bandwidth eventually becomes less of a
concern. I failed to make my point. I was responding to your comment that
you have unlimited water which in my mind did not mesh with this discussion.
Dont get me wrong, I'm looking for and appreciate your input.
At any rate, AFAIK the concern that remains is transport to user so they get
what they pay for. Or do you have a magic potion for that too?
BTW: The extra calls I get are from upset customers that the network is
slow. Then I check it out and find another subscriber running file-sharing,
or hogging it up with video, etc.
-RickG

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 2:32 AM, Travis Johnson  wrote:

>  Nope... we pay per MB on our upstream connections... but once you reach a
> certain mass, your upstream is no longer a concern. Our three upstream
> connections account for 7% of our total expenses. Time is the most valueable
> asset you have. If you are having to take even a few "extra" calls per month
> from upset customers about doing metered billing, then you have not made any
> money on them. Spend the time getting new customers rather than fighting
> with current ones.
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> RickG wrote:
>
> Travis, Thats great for you but that's not the norm for most people and
> doesnt rebuff my point. I suppose youre getting unlimited bandwidth from
> your upstream too?
> -RickG
>
> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 11:53 PM, Travis Johnson   
> wrote:
>
>
>
>   I have unlimited water in my home. $40 per month.
>
> Travis
>
>
> RickG wrote:
>
> For $100 a month per phone and the internet access is relatively slow. Not
> really an "apples to apples" comparison.
>
> In my home, I want unlimited electicity, natural gas, and water too!
>
> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Travis Johnson   
>   wrote:
>
>
>
>   The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan
> on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for
> $9.95/mo extra.
>
> People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from
> month to month. Would you want that at your own home?
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Gary Garrett wrote:
>
> You sound like the cell phone company.
> I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the
> month while the cellular guys charge by the minute.
>
>
> Travis Johnson wrote:
>
>
>  Hi,
>
> You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.)
> to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the
> phone calls from users that say "My computer wasn't even turned on
> during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere."  So, even
> that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think
> about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you
> have now... does the same solution work? Probably not.
>
> The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to
> upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well).
> This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra
> income each month, even if they don't use it.
>
>
>  
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>  
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>  
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wir

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[RickG]

Fantastic discussion folks! This has been constantly on my mind since '97
when I paid $3500/month for a T1. Even more now with video moving to our
networks. Marlon is right, proper implementaion is critical. When I started
metered billing, I made sure everyone knew and that they had plenty of elbow
room in their caps. That way when their usage went up there were no
surprises - they knew they had been using it more. We lost only a few subs
and they were the ones that ate up the network. Interesting enough, most of
our customers fully understood and apprecaited it. They felt as though they
werent subsidizing the bandwidth hogs. -RickG

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

> You've nailed the trick here Mike.
>
> What WE have to figure out how to do is move the billing with customer
> habits.
>
> As people move their seats from the TV to the computer we need to move that
> financial outflow from the video people to us
>
> BTW, dollars to donuts if you put in a per bit billing package that's
> reasonable you'll loose VERY few customers.  And most of them will be ones
> that are costing you far more than they are paying you.
>
> marlon
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Mike" 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
>
>
> > There are those (the 5%?) who will just try to max out the pipe all
> > the time if that's what they perceive they are paying for.
> >
> > This thread is making me think through some of the cob webs which are
> > rising uses on ALL of our networks.  Christmas is coming, so are new
> > game consoles.
> >
> > I constantly look at my Verizon bill and try to figure out how to
> > trim it; I can't.  Four phones, national plan, unlimited
> > texting/pictures, 1200 shared minutes; we pay about $240.00 per
> > month, or about $60.00 per phone.  I view that as obscene, but also
> > feel somewhat trapped.  Verizon, ex-Alltel, ex-GTE, has the best
> > network between Iowa and Florida where my phones reside.
> >
> > We've weaned ourselves away from the local rapacious monopolist --
> > Iowa Telecom -- but still throw money at Verizon and Dish network
> > every month.  If I wasn't a Hawkeye fan, I'd toss Dish out too, but I
> > can't get the Big 10 network over-the-air.
> >
> > My point is, as far as communications costs go, Internet, if we were
> > a customer instead of the vendor, would be a small portion of total
> > monthly costs.  Maybe it is time to rethink the whole
> > paradigm.  Except, if I make a bold move, competition would have to
> > do the same thing, or I'd lose customers.
> >
> > I tried a tiered service once.  My basic contract says 512 kbps.  I
> > let them burst to 2 or 4 M, whatever the pipe will let them do at the
> > moment.  If they have a persistent connection, and the pipe gets
> > congested, I throttle them back by delaying packets.  When I tried to
> > sell tiered service with escalating minimum guarantees, I had few takers.
> >
> > Most of my customers are rural, unsophisticated, and bursty
> > users.  The business customers pay more and expect that to be the
> > case.  There seems to be a pain threshold of $45.00 for rural
> > residential users.
> >
> > Mike
> >
> > At 08:45 AM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
> >>Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
> >>
> >>On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
> >>
> >> > Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you " guaranteed
> >> > minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
> >> > 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong
> >> > but
> >> > the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers
> >> > when
> >> > their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come
> >> > in.
> >> > I
> >> > find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it
> >> > can
> >> > be delivered.
> >> >
> >> > BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost
> money
> >> > since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an
> >> > non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive
> >> > market
> >> > that actually makes money (bottom line).
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker 
> >> > wrote:
> >> >
> >> > > Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years,
> >> > > and
> >> > > even tested it for a bit.
> >> > >
> >> > > Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I, myself,
> >> > being
> >> > > a
> >> > > fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an
> >> > > unlimited
> >> > > plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan.  I
> >> > > have
> >> > > unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could pay for
> >> > > unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too!
> >> > >
> >> > > We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could
> >> > activate
> >> > > it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, a

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[George Morris]

Rick, there is a heck of a range of technology out there as you know.
Anything from the old Alvarion hoppers to the new stuff using N from
Ubiquiti and Mikrotik + dog. 

It isn't the same game anymore, provided you can get your Internet pipe(s)
at a reasonable price.

Guaranteed bandwidth from a WISP is certainly do-able now, and the numbers
I've seen in this thread are on the low side. Have you played with the new
stuff that can actually deliver 100Mbits per AP? Its stunning. There are
still some rough edges in both the firmware and certification, but this is
the future. QoS is still an issue of course, the customer will eat whatever
we can give them and then some...

George 

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 1:25 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are
great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared
bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper
ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense.

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker  wrote:

> Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
>
> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
>
> > Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you " guaranteed
> > minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
> > 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong
> but
> > the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers
when
> > their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come
> in.
> > I
> > find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it
> can
> > be delivered.
> >
> > BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money
> > since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an
> > non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive market
> > that actually makes money (bottom line).
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years,
> and
> > > even tested it for a bit.
> > >
> > > Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I, myself,
> > being
> > > a
> > > fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an
> unlimited
> > > plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan.  I
> have
> > > unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could pay for
> > > unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too!
> > >
> > > We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could
> > activate
> > > it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just
> > > didn't
> > > understand the concept.  People aren't used to it--most people got
> online
> > > when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and
don't
> > > remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages.  Nobody knows what ISDN with
> > 300
> > > hours is.
> > >
> > > We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo.  This makes us the
> > fastest
> > > in the area, and the cheapest.  We have local sales, support and
> > > installations.  We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we
offer
> > > three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps
> > and
> > > 6Mbps.  If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e.
> "normal
> > > use") you'll always see the 12Mbps.  But once you fire up a torrent or
> > > Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get
> your
> > > guaranteed minimum.  Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again
> going
> > to
> > > 6Mbps.  We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this
> > > structure.
> > >
> > > I'm hoping that the "big guys" do go to pay-per-use plans.  Just one
> more
> > > way we can advertise and win against them.  "Tired of counting your
> bits
> > > and
> > > bytes?  We're unlimited"  Look at Cricket wireless--they've just
> exploded
> > > with customers on their unlimited-everything service.
> > >
> > > Just my 2 cents
> > >
> > > Jayson
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson  wrote:
> > >
> > > >  The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited
> > plan
> > > > on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access
> for
> > > > $9.95/mo extra.
> > > >
> > > > People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be
> > from
> > > > month to month. Would you want that at your own home?
> > > >
> > > > Travis
> > > > Microserv
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Gary Garrett wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You sound like the cell phone company.
> > > > I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by
> the
> > > > month while the cellular guys charge by the minute.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Travis Johnson wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  Hi,
> > > >
>

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[Josh Luthman]

You get what you pay for.

On 11/8/09, RickG  wrote:
> No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are
> great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared
> bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper
> ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense.
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker  wrote:
>
>> Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
>>
>> > Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you " guaranteed
>> > minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
>> > 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong
>> but
>> > the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers
>> > when
>> > their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come
>> in.
>> > I
>> > find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it
>> can
>> > be delivered.
>> >
>> > BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money
>> > since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an
>> > non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive market
>> > that actually makes money (bottom line).
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years,
>> and
>> > > even tested it for a bit.
>> > >
>> > > Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I, myself,
>> > being
>> > > a
>> > > fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an
>> unlimited
>> > > plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan.  I
>> have
>> > > unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could pay for
>> > > unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too!
>> > >
>> > > We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could
>> > activate
>> > > it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just
>> > > didn't
>> > > understand the concept.  People aren't used to it--most people got
>> online
>> > > when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and
>> > > don't
>> > > remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages.  Nobody knows what ISDN with
>> > 300
>> > > hours is.
>> > >
>> > > We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo.  This makes us the
>> > fastest
>> > > in the area, and the cheapest.  We have local sales, support and
>> > > installations.  We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we
>> > > offer
>> > > three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps
>> > and
>> > > 6Mbps.  If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e.
>> "normal
>> > > use") you'll always see the 12Mbps.  But once you fire up a torrent or
>> > > Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get
>> your
>> > > guaranteed minimum.  Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again
>> going
>> > to
>> > > 6Mbps.  We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this
>> > > structure.
>> > >
>> > > I'm hoping that the "big guys" do go to pay-per-use plans.  Just one
>> more
>> > > way we can advertise and win against them.  "Tired of counting your
>> bits
>> > > and
>> > > bytes?  We're unlimited"  Look at Cricket wireless--they've just
>> exploded
>> > > with customers on their unlimited-everything service.
>> > >
>> > > Just my 2 cents
>> > >
>> > > Jayson
>> > >
>> > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson  wrote:
>> > >
>> > > >  The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited
>> > plan
>> > > > on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access
>> for
>> > > > $9.95/mo extra.
>> > > >
>> > > > People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be
>> > from
>> > > > month to month. Would you want that at your own home?
>> > > >
>> > > > Travis
>> > > > Microserv
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Gary Garrett wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > You sound like the cell phone company.
>> > > > I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by
>> the
>> > > > month while the cellular guys charge by the minute.
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > > Travis Johnson wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > >
>> > > >  Hi,
>> > > >
>> > > > You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius,
>> etc.)
>> > > > to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the
>> > > > phone calls from users that say "My computer wasn't even turned on
>> > > > during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere."  So,
>> > even
>> > > > that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think
>> > > > about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you
>> > > > have now... does the same solution work? Probably not.
>> > > >
>> > > > The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to
>> > > > upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as
>> well

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[RickG]

No, but they expect to get their speed every time they get on and they are
great at running speed tests. I understand we are int he business of shared
bandwidth but the equipment can only handle so much. It goes back to proper
ratios. When you do the numbers properly, it doesnt make financial sense.

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:45 AM, Jayson Baker  wrote:

> Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
>
> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
>
> > Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you " guaranteed
> > minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
> > 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong
> but
> > the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when
> > their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come
> in.
> > I
> > find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it
> can
> > be delivered.
> >
> > BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money
> > since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an
> > non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive market
> > that actually makes money (bottom line).
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years,
> and
> > > even tested it for a bit.
> > >
> > > Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I, myself,
> > being
> > > a
> > > fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an
> unlimited
> > > plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan.  I
> have
> > > unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could pay for
> > > unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too!
> > >
> > > We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could
> > activate
> > > it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just
> > > didn't
> > > understand the concept.  People aren't used to it--most people got
> online
> > > when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't
> > > remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages.  Nobody knows what ISDN with
> > 300
> > > hours is.
> > >
> > > We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo.  This makes us the
> > fastest
> > > in the area, and the cheapest.  We have local sales, support and
> > > installations.  We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer
> > > three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps
> > and
> > > 6Mbps.  If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e.
> "normal
> > > use") you'll always see the 12Mbps.  But once you fire up a torrent or
> > > Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get
> your
> > > guaranteed minimum.  Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again
> going
> > to
> > > 6Mbps.  We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this
> > > structure.
> > >
> > > I'm hoping that the "big guys" do go to pay-per-use plans.  Just one
> more
> > > way we can advertise and win against them.  "Tired of counting your
> bits
> > > and
> > > bytes?  We're unlimited"  Look at Cricket wireless--they've just
> exploded
> > > with customers on their unlimited-everything service.
> > >
> > > Just my 2 cents
> > >
> > > Jayson
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson  wrote:
> > >
> > > >  The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited
> > plan
> > > > on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access
> for
> > > > $9.95/mo extra.
> > > >
> > > > People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be
> > from
> > > > month to month. Would you want that at your own home?
> > > >
> > > > Travis
> > > > Microserv
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Gary Garrett wrote:
> > > >
> > > > You sound like the cell phone company.
> > > > I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by
> the
> > > > month while the cellular guys charge by the minute.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Travis Johnson wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >  Hi,
> > > >
> > > > You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius,
> etc.)
> > > > to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the
> > > > phone calls from users that say "My computer wasn't even turned on
> > > > during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere."  So,
> > even
> > > > that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think
> > > > about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you
> > > > have now... does the same solution work? Probably not.
> > > >
> > > > The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to
> > > > upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as
> well).
> > > > This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra
> > > > income each month, even if they don't use it.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>  
> 

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[RickG]

Enjoy it while you can. It's amazing they are still in business!

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 9:41 AM, Jayson Baker  wrote:

> No, my unlimited cell phone plan is only $35/mo (Cricket).  I did have to
> buy the phone though, ($50).
>
> On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 12:50 AM, Marlon K. Schafer  >wrote:
>
> > Unlimited cell phone?  I don't buy it  There's a limit, there always
> > is.
> >
> > Also, is your "unlimited" cell phone program only $40 or $50 per month?
> >
> > If I could get the same $100 to $300 per month for internet that people
> > often pay the cell companies I'd be able to sell them a LOT more service
> for
> > the same price they are paying now.  I could also put in much better
> > hardware.
> >
> > Lets see, 600 subs at an average of $37 per month is $22,200 per month.
> > 600 subs at an average of $150 per month is $90,000 per month (and the
> same
> > number of people needed).
> >
> >
> >
> http://www.wirefly.com/learn/wireless_news/jd-power-analyzes-average-cell-phone-bill/
> > According to JD Power the average cell bill is $77 per month.
> >
> > So 600 subs at an average of $77 per month is $46,200.  Still much nicer
> > than my current $27 per month :-).
> >
> > How did we end up in this situation?  grin
> > marlon
> >
> >  - Original Message -
> >  From: Travis Johnson
> >  To: WISPA General List
> >   Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:24 PM
> >  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
> >
> >
> >   The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited
> plan
> > on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for
> > $9.95/mo extra.
> >
> >  People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be
> from
> > month to month. Would you want that at your own home?
> >
> >  Travis
> >  Microserv
> >
> >  Gary Garrett wrote:
> > You sound like the cell phone company.
> > I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the
> > month while the cellular guys charge by the minute.
> >
> >
> > Travis Johnson wrote:
> >  Hi,
> >
> > You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.)
> > to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the
> > phone calls from users that say "My computer wasn't even turned on
> > during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere."  So, even
> > that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think
> > about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you
> > have now... does the same solution work? Probably not.
> >
> > The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to
> > upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well).
> > This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra
> > income each month, even if they don't use it.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> >
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> --
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>  
> 
> >  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >  http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> >
>  
> 
> >
> >  WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> >  Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >  http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> >  Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> >
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/ma

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[RickG]

In addition, Cricket's support sucks. I would get an answering machine! And
if you have a billing problem, forget it!

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 8:28 AM, 3-dB Networks  wrote:

> To interject a bit... Cricket is unlimited everything... that is actually
> how they market.
>
> They keep costs low by really only building in metropolitan areas and not
> subsidizing cell phone purchases (so all of their phones are crap).  My
> wife
> has their service because a plan that meets her talk time and text
> requirements from other carriers would be at least $100 more a month.  But
> the downside is their service is crap IMHO... half the time when I try to
> call her she is not getting good reception :-)
>
> In a way though, they get the users no one else would want.  Users that
> will
> not sign contracts (read... plenty of illegal's who can't pass a credit
> check) and heavy users... like my wife.
>
> I'd rather be a Verizon than a Cricket as a WISP anyday :-D
>
> Daniel White
> 3-dB Networks
> http://www.3dbnetworks.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
> Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 12:51 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
>
> Unlimited cell phone?  I don't buy it  There's a limit, there always
> is.
>
> Also, is your "unlimited" cell phone program only $40 or $50 per month?
>
> If I could get the same $100 to $300 per month for internet that people
> often pay the cell companies I'd be able to sell them a LOT more service
> for
> the same price they are paying now.  I could also put in much better
> hardware.
>
> Lets see, 600 subs at an average of $37 per month is $22,200 per month.
> 600 subs at an average of $150 per month is $90,000 per month (and the same
> number of people needed).
>
>
> http://www.wirefly.com/learn/wireless_news/jd-power-analyzes-average-cell-ph
> one-bill/
> According to JD Power the average cell bill is $77 per month.
>
> So 600 subs at an average of $77 per month is $46,200.  Still much nicer
> than my current $27 per month :-).
>
> How did we end up in this situation?  grin
> marlon
>
>  - Original Message -
>  From: Travis Johnson
>  To: WISPA General List
>  Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:24 PM
>  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
>
>
>  The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan
> on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for
> $9.95/mo extra.
>
>  People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from
> month to month. Would you want that at your own home?
>
>  Travis
>  Microserv
>
>  Gary Garrett wrote:
> You sound like the cell phone company.
> I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the
> month while the cellular guys charge by the minute.
>
>
> Travis Johnson wrote:
>  Hi,
>
> You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.)
> to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the
> phone calls from users that say "My computer wasn't even turned on
> during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere."  So, even
> that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think
> about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you
> have now... does the same solution work? Probably not.
>
> The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to
> upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well).
> This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra
> income each month, even if they don't use it.
>
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
> 
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> 
>  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>  http://signup.wispa.org/
>
>
> 
> 
>
>  WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
>  Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>  http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>  Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[Faisal Imtiaz]

Marlon,
With all due respect, the math you presented is missing a factor and a bit
rough :-

Total number of seconds in a Month = 60seconds x 60 min x 24hrs x 30 (or 31)
days = 2,592,000 (2,678,400) 

A TI is rated for 1.5mb/s (or 24 channels of 64K each)= 1536kbps = 1536 x
1024 (bits/sec)= /8 to conert to bytes = 196,864 bytes/sec = /1024 to
convert to Kbytes/sec = 192.25 KiloBytes / sec

Total possible amount of data tranfer on a T1 in a month = 196,846 x
2,592,000 = /(1024 x 1024) to convert to Mega Bytes = 486632.8125 or 475.227
Giga Bytes.
Or 0.464 Tera Bytes in each direction.
---


Faisal Imtiaz
Computer Office Solutions Inc. /SnappyDSL.net
Ph: (305) 663-5518 x 232
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 11:37 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

OK, in light of that.  Have you run the calculations on what a 1 meg, 3 meg
and 6 meg stream will use?

Remember to count BOTH directions.  Our average user is about 8x down vs. 
up.  So a 3 meg incoming video stream also contains what, about 375k of
outbound too.

As I recall, when I figured our overage plan out back in 1999 (yeah, that's
when WE made this decision) it was determined that a t-1 running full out
both ways would be able to transfer about 8TB of data.  I'm not sure that's
right though.

Last month we averaged 4.67MBps in and 1.04MBps out at our Ephrata POP.  In
Odessa it was 3.09MBps in and .5184MBps out (Ephrata has all of the
servers).

That's a total system wide AVERAGE usage of 7.76 in and 1.5584 out.  Our
total BYTES in was 1.49 TB in and .33132 TB out.  1.81 TB total.

Either the original math was wrong or there can be a LARGE disconnect
between average speeds and actual amount of data transferred.

Just for kicks lets try it this way.  According to a google search there are
2,628,000 seconds in a month.  A t-1 can move 192 bytes per second.  I make
that out to be 504,576,000 Bytes per month one way.  Double it for symmetric
service and you get 1,009,152,000 about 1 TB per month if running full out.

Clearly there can be a disconnect between the SPEEDS people get and the DATA
they consume.  Go figure.

Either way, it takes x amount of hardware to deliver x amount of data to
people.  We are constantly upgrading our gear so that it'll run just as fast
as it can go.  We have no pre-built tiers of service.  Everything runs wide
open.  People place themselves into the tiers with their overages (a few
business accounts are exceptions to this rule).  We only have to bill
overages on about 10% of our customer base per month.  And it's rarely the
same 10%.  There are those that always go over and expect the overage bill
but I think that's only about 5% or so of our customer base (I'd have to ask
Apryl to be sure if anyone cares that much).

Laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Eric Rogers" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing


> What happens when the teenager starts the streaming tv on the xbox and
> a friend shows up... decides to go down the street but leaves it
> running till mom and dad gets home at 6:00 PM?  Then mom and dad
> decide to rent a movie.  To me, I am counting on over-selling the
> bandwidth and that is where the profit is.  My dynamic is changing and
> the only thing that makes sense is to pay if you use it ... more than
> normal.
>
> I am looking for pros and cons of metered/tiered billing.  I have
> heard from many as to why they wouldn't and don't, so who is billing
> tiered and/or metered?  The questions still stand.
>
> Eric Rogers
> Precision Data Solutions, LLC
> (317) 831-3000 x200
>
> Fat-fingered from my phone!
>
> On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:46 AM, "Jayson Baker" 
> wrote:
>
>> Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
>>
>>> Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you "
>>> guaranteed
>>> minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
>>> 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm
>>> wrong but
>>> the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy
>>> subscribers when
>>> their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can
>>> come in.
>>> I
>>> find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if
>>> it can
>>> be delivered.
>>>
>>> BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost
>>> money
>>> since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an
>>> non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive
>>> market
>>> that actually makes money (bottom line).
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple
 years, and
 even tested it for a bit.

 Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to gue

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[Marlon K. Schafer]

You've nailed the trick here Mike.

What WE have to figure out how to do is move the billing with customer 
habits.

As people move their seats from the TV to the computer we need to move that 
financial outflow from the video people to us

BTW, dollars to donuts if you put in a per bit billing package that's 
reasonable you'll loose VERY few customers.  And most of them will be ones 
that are costing you far more than they are paying you.

marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:09 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing


> There are those (the 5%?) who will just try to max out the pipe all
> the time if that's what they perceive they are paying for.
>
> This thread is making me think through some of the cob webs which are
> rising uses on ALL of our networks.  Christmas is coming, so are new
> game consoles.
>
> I constantly look at my Verizon bill and try to figure out how to
> trim it; I can't.  Four phones, national plan, unlimited
> texting/pictures, 1200 shared minutes; we pay about $240.00 per
> month, or about $60.00 per phone.  I view that as obscene, but also
> feel somewhat trapped.  Verizon, ex-Alltel, ex-GTE, has the best
> network between Iowa and Florida where my phones reside.
>
> We've weaned ourselves away from the local rapacious monopolist -- 
> Iowa Telecom -- but still throw money at Verizon and Dish network
> every month.  If I wasn't a Hawkeye fan, I'd toss Dish out too, but I
> can't get the Big 10 network over-the-air.
>
> My point is, as far as communications costs go, Internet, if we were
> a customer instead of the vendor, would be a small portion of total
> monthly costs.  Maybe it is time to rethink the whole
> paradigm.  Except, if I make a bold move, competition would have to
> do the same thing, or I'd lose customers.
>
> I tried a tiered service once.  My basic contract says 512 kbps.  I
> let them burst to 2 or 4 M, whatever the pipe will let them do at the
> moment.  If they have a persistent connection, and the pipe gets
> congested, I throttle them back by delaying packets.  When I tried to
> sell tiered service with escalating minimum guarantees, I had few takers.
>
> Most of my customers are rural, unsophisticated, and bursty
> users.  The business customers pay more and expect that to be the
> case.  There seems to be a pain threshold of $45.00 for rural
> residential users.
>
> Mike
>
> At 08:45 AM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>>Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
>>
>>On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
>>
>> > Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you " guaranteed
>> > minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
>> > 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong 
>> > but
>> > the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers 
>> > when
>> > their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come 
>> > in.
>> > I
>> > find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it 
>> > can
>> > be delivered.
>> >
>> > BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money
>> > since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an
>> > non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive 
>> > market
>> > that actually makes money (bottom line).
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> > > Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, 
>> > > and
>> > > even tested it for a bit.
>> > >
>> > > Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I, myself,
>> > being
>> > > a
>> > > fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an 
>> > > unlimited
>> > > plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan.  I 
>> > > have
>> > > unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could pay for
>> > > unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too!
>> > >
>> > > We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could
>> > activate
>> > > it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just
>> > > didn't
>> > > understand the concept.  People aren't used to it--most people got 
>> > > online
>> > > when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and 
>> > > don't
>> > > remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages.  Nobody knows what ISDN 
>> > > with
>> > 300
>> > > hours is.
>> > >
>> > > We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo.  This makes us the
>> > fastest
>> > > in the area, and the cheapest.  We have local sales, support and
>> > > installations.  We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we 
>> > > offer
>> > > three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 
>> > > 4Mbps
>> > and
>> > > 6Mbps.  If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. 
>> > > "normal
>> > > use") you'll always see the 12Mbps.  But once you fire up a torrent 
>> > > or
>> > > Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 mi

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[Marlon K. Schafer]

OK, in light of that.  Have you run the calculations on what a 1 meg, 3 meg 
and 6 meg stream will use?

Remember to count BOTH directions.  Our average user is about 8x down vs. 
up.  So a 3 meg incoming video stream also contains what, about 375k of 
outbound too.

As I recall, when I figured our overage plan out back in 1999 (yeah, that's 
when WE made this decision) it was determined that a t-1 running full out 
both ways would be able to transfer about 8TB of data.  I'm not sure that's 
right though.

Last month we averaged 4.67MBps in and 1.04MBps out at our Ephrata POP.  In 
Odessa it was 3.09MBps in and .5184MBps out (Ephrata has all of the 
servers).

That's a total system wide AVERAGE usage of 7.76 in and 1.5584 out.  Our 
total BYTES in was 1.49 TB in and .33132 TB out.  1.81 TB total.

Either the original math was wrong or there can be a LARGE disconnect 
between average speeds and actual amount of data transferred.

Just for kicks lets try it this way.  According to a google search there are 
2,628,000 seconds in a month.  A t-1 can move 192 bytes per second.  I make 
that out to be 504,576,000 Bytes per month one way.  Double it for symmetric 
service and you get 1,009,152,000 about 1 TB per month if running full out.

Clearly there can be a disconnect between the SPEEDS people get and the DATA 
they consume.  Go figure.

Either way, it takes x amount of hardware to deliver x amount of data to 
people.  We are constantly upgrading our gear so that it'll run just as fast 
as it can go.  We have no pre-built tiers of service.  Everything runs wide 
open.  People place themselves into the tiers with their overages (a few 
business accounts are exceptions to this rule).  We only have to bill 
overages on about 10% of our customer base per month.  And it's rarely the 
same 10%.  There are those that always go over and expect the overage bill 
but I think that's only about 5% or so of our customer base (I'd have to ask 
Apryl to be sure if anyone cares that much).

Laters,
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Eric Rogers" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 7:00 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing


> What happens when the teenager starts the streaming tv on the xbox and
> a friend shows up... decides to go down the street but leaves it
> running till mom and dad gets home at 6:00 PM?  Then mom and dad
> decide to rent a movie.  To me, I am counting on over-selling the
> bandwidth and that is where the profit is.  My dynamic is changing and
> the only thing that makes sense is to pay if you use it ... more than
> normal.
>
> I am looking for pros and cons of metered/tiered billing.  I have
> heard from many as to why they wouldn't and don't, so who is billing
> tiered and/or metered?  The questions still stand.
>
> Eric Rogers
> Precision Data Solutions, LLC
> (317) 831-3000 x200
>
> Fat-fingered from my phone!
>
> On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:46 AM, "Jayson Baker" 
> wrote:
>
>> Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
>>
>>> Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you "
>>> guaranteed
>>> minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
>>> 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm
>>> wrong but
>>> the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy
>>> subscribers when
>>> their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can
>>> come in.
>>> I
>>> find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if
>>> it can
>>> be delivered.
>>>
>>> BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost
>>> money
>>> since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an
>>> non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive
>>> market
>>> that actually makes money (bottom line).
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple
 years, and
 even tested it for a bit.

 Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I, myself,
>>> being
 a
 fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an
 unlimited
 plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan.
 I have
 unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could pay for
 unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too!

 We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could
>>> activate
 it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, and people
 just
 didn't
 understand the concept.  People aren't used to it--most people got
 online
 when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and
 don't
 remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages.  Nobody knows what ISDN
 with
>>> 300
 hours is.

 We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo.  This makes us the
>>> fastest
 in the area, and the cheapest.  We have local sales, support and

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[Mike]

There are those (the 5%?) who will just try to max out the pipe all 
the time if that's what they perceive they are paying for.

This thread is making me think through some of the cob webs which are 
rising uses on ALL of our networks.  Christmas is coming, so are new 
game consoles.

I constantly look at my Verizon bill and try to figure out how to 
trim it; I can't.  Four phones, national plan, unlimited 
texting/pictures, 1200 shared minutes; we pay about $240.00 per 
month, or about $60.00 per phone.  I view that as obscene, but also 
feel somewhat trapped.  Verizon, ex-Alltel, ex-GTE, has the best 
network between Iowa and Florida where my phones reside.

We've weaned ourselves away from the local rapacious monopolist -- 
Iowa Telecom -- but still throw money at Verizon and Dish network 
every month.  If I wasn't a Hawkeye fan, I'd toss Dish out too, but I 
can't get the Big 10 network over-the-air.

My point is, as far as communications costs go, Internet, if we were 
a customer instead of the vendor, would be a small portion of total 
monthly costs.  Maybe it is time to rethink the whole 
paradigm.  Except, if I make a bold move, competition would have to 
do the same thing, or I'd lose customers.

I tried a tiered service once.  My basic contract says 512 kbps.  I 
let them burst to 2 or 4 M, whatever the pipe will let them do at the 
moment.  If they have a persistent connection, and the pipe gets 
congested, I throttle them back by delaying packets.  When I tried to 
sell tiered service with escalating minimum guarantees, I had few takers.

Most of my customers are rural, unsophisticated, and bursty 
users.  The business customers pay more and expect that to be the 
case.  There seems to be a pain threshold of $45.00 for rural 
residential users.

Mike

At 08:45 AM 11/8/2009, you wrote:
>Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
>
>On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
>
> > Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you " guaranteed
> > minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
> > 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but
> > the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when
> > their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in.
> > I
> > find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can
> > be delivered.
> >
> > BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money
> > since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an
> > non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive market
> > that actually makes money (bottom line).
> >
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and
> > > even tested it for a bit.
> > >
> > > Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I, myself,
> > being
> > > a
> > > fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited
> > > plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan.  I have
> > > unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could pay for
> > > unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too!
> > >
> > > We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could
> > activate
> > > it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just
> > > didn't
> > > understand the concept.  People aren't used to it--most people got online
> > > when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't
> > > remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages.  Nobody knows what ISDN with
> > 300
> > > hours is.
> > >
> > > We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo.  This makes us the
> > fastest
> > > in the area, and the cheapest.  We have local sales, support and
> > > installations.  We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer
> > > three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps
> > and
> > > 6Mbps.  If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. "normal
> > > use") you'll always see the 12Mbps.  But once you fire up a torrent or
> > > Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your
> > > guaranteed minimum.  Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going
> > to
> > > 6Mbps.  We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this
> > > structure.
> > >
> > > I'm hoping that the "big guys" do go to pay-per-use plans.  Just one more
> > > way we can advertise and win against them.  "Tired of counting your bits
> > > and
> > > bytes?  We're unlimited"  Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded
> > > with customers on their unlimited-everything service.
> > >
> > > Just my 2 cents
> > >
> > > Jayson
> > >
> > > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson  wrote:
> > >
> > > >  The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited
> > plan
> > > > on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for
> > > 

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[Eric Rogers]

What happens when the teenager starts the streaming tv on the xbox and  
a friend shows up... decides to go down the street but leaves it  
running till mom and dad gets home at 6:00 PM?  Then mom and dad  
decide to rent a movie.  To me, I am counting on over-selling the  
bandwidth and that is where the profit is.  My dynamic is changing and  
the only thing that makes sense is to pay if you use it ... more than  
normal.

I am looking for pros and cons of metered/tiered billing.  I have  
heard from many as to why they wouldn't and don't, so who is billing  
tiered and/or metered?  The questions still stand.

Eric Rogers
Precision Data Solutions, LLC
(317) 831-3000 x200

Fat-fingered from my phone!

On Nov 8, 2009, at 9:46 AM, "Jayson Baker"   
wrote:

> Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.
>
> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:
>
>> Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you "  
>> guaranteed
>> minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
>> 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm  
>> wrong but
>> the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy  
>> subscribers when
>> their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can  
>> come in.
>> I
>> find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if  
>> it can
>> be delivered.
>>
>> BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost  
>> money
>> since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an
>> non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive  
>> market
>> that actually makes money (bottom line).
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple  
>>> years, and
>>> even tested it for a bit.
>>>
>>> Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I, myself,
>> being
>>> a
>>> fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an  
>>> unlimited
>>> plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan.   
>>> I have
>>> unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could pay for
>>> unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too!
>>>
>>> We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could
>> activate
>>> it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, and people  
>>> just
>>> didn't
>>> understand the concept.  People aren't used to it--most people got  
>>> online
>>> when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and  
>>> don't
>>> remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages.  Nobody knows what ISDN  
>>> with
>> 300
>>> hours is.
>>>
>>> We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo.  This makes us the
>> fastest
>>> in the area, and the cheapest.  We have local sales, support and
>>> installations.  We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we  
>>> offer
>>> three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps,  
>>> 4Mbps
>> and
>>> 6Mbps.  If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e.  
>>> "normal
>>> use") you'll always see the 12Mbps.  But once you fire up a  
>>> torrent or
>>> Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you  
>>> get your
>>> guaranteed minimum.  Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again  
>>> going
>> to
>>> 6Mbps.  We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this
>>> structure.
>>>
>>> I'm hoping that the "big guys" do go to pay-per-use plans.  Just  
>>> one more
>>> way we can advertise and win against them.  "Tired of counting  
>>> your bits
>>> and
>>> bytes?  We're unlimited"  Look at Cricket wireless--they've just  
>>> exploded
>>> with customers on their unlimited-everything service.
>>>
>>> Just my 2 cents
>>>
>>> Jayson
>>>
>>> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson  wrote:
>>>
 The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited
>> plan
 on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet  
 access for
 $9.95/mo extra.

 People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to  
 be
>> from
 month to month. Would you want that at your own home?

 Travis
 Microserv


 Gary Garrett wrote:

 You sound like the cell phone company.
 I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge  
 by the
 month while the cellular guys charge by the minute.


 Travis Johnson wrote:


 Hi,

 You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius,  
 etc.)
 to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with  
 the
 phone calls from users that say "My computer wasn't even turned on
 during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere."  So,
>> even
 that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to  
 think
 about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers  
 you
 have now... does the same solution work? Probably not.

 T

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[Jayson Baker]

Not everyone uses 6Mbps all day long.

On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 7:52 PM, RickG  wrote:

> Thats one way to utilize bandwidth shaping but how do you " guaranteed
> minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps and
> 6Mbps" at those low rates to every use and make money? Maybe I'm wrong but
> the problem I see is that you will end up having unhappy subscribers when
> their expectations are not met. Thats where the premium rates can come in.
> I
> find people all the time who would pay more for committed speeds if it can
> be delivered.
>
> BTW: Cricket Communications, subsidiary of Leap Wireless has lost money
> since its inception and continues to do so. Give me an example of an
> non-subsidized "all you can eat service" company in a competitive market
> that actually makes money (bottom line).
>
>
> On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 4:55 PM, Jayson Baker 
> wrote:
>
> > Ya know, we've looked at this many times over the past couple years, and
> > even tested it for a bit.
> >
> > Fact is, people like unlimited, and not having to guess.  I, myself,
> being
> > a
> > fairly lite user of the Internet, would still always opt for an unlimited
> > plan--even if I knew my bill may be lower on a pay-per-use plan.  I have
> > unlimited cell phone minutes, txt messages, etc.  If I could pay for
> > unlimited utilites, I'd certainly do that too!
> >
> > We've got the infrastructure in place for a pay-per-use, and could
> activate
> > it at anytime.  We tried selling it about a year ago, and people just
> > didn't
> > understand the concept.  People aren't used to it--most people got online
> > when Internet was $19.95/mo for dialup (or, $22.95 for AOL!), and don't
> > remember the 10 for $10 dial-up packages.  Nobody knows what ISDN with
> 300
> > hours is.
> >
> > We currently offer 12Mbps service for $24.95/mo.  This makes us the
> fastest
> > in the area, and the cheapest.  We have local sales, support and
> > installations.  We decided the way to win is to shape traffic--we offer
> > three 12Mbps packages; one with a guaranteed minimum of 1.5Mbps, 4Mbps
> and
> > 6Mbps.  If you do nothing than browse, share pictures, etc. (i.e. "normal
> > use") you'll always see the 12Mbps.  But once you fire up a torrent or
> > Netflix, you only get that speed for 10 minutes--after that, you get your
> > guaranteed minimum.  Prices double from 1.5 to 4, and double again going
> to
> > 6Mbps.  We have never had a complaint about speed or price with this
> > structure.
> >
> > I'm hoping that the "big guys" do go to pay-per-use plans.  Just one more
> > way we can advertise and win against them.  "Tired of counting your bits
> > and
> > bytes?  We're unlimited"  Look at Cricket wireless--they've just exploded
> > with customers on their unlimited-everything service.
> >
> > Just my 2 cents
> >
> > Jayson
> >
> > On Sat, Nov 7, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Travis Johnson  wrote:
> >
> > >  The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited
> plan
> > > on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for
> > > $9.95/mo extra.
> > >
> > > People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be
> from
> > > month to month. Would you want that at your own home?
> > >
> > > Travis
> > > Microserv
> > >
> > >
> > > Gary Garrett wrote:
> > >
> > > You sound like the cell phone company.
> > > I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the
> > > month while the cellular guys charge by the minute.
> > >
> > >
> > > Travis Johnson wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >  Hi,
> > >
> > > You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.)
> > > to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the
> > > phone calls from users that say "My computer wasn't even turned on
> > > during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere."  So,
> even
> > > that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think
> > > about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you
> > > have now... does the same solution work? Probably not.
> > >
> > > The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to
> > > upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well).
> > > This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra
> > > income each month, even if they don't use it.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>  
> 
> > > WISPA Wants You! Join today!http://signup.wispa.org/
> > >
> >
> 
> > >
> > > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> > >
> > > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> > >
> > > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> 
> > > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > >
> > >
> >
> --

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[Jayson Baker]

No, my unlimited cell phone plan is only $35/mo (Cricket).  I did have to
buy the phone though, ($50).

On Sun, Nov 8, 2009 at 12:50 AM, Marlon K. Schafer wrote:

> Unlimited cell phone?  I don't buy it  There's a limit, there always
> is.
>
> Also, is your "unlimited" cell phone program only $40 or $50 per month?
>
> If I could get the same $100 to $300 per month for internet that people
> often pay the cell companies I'd be able to sell them a LOT more service for
> the same price they are paying now.  I could also put in much better
> hardware.
>
> Lets see, 600 subs at an average of $37 per month is $22,200 per month.
> 600 subs at an average of $150 per month is $90,000 per month (and the same
> number of people needed).
>
>
> http://www.wirefly.com/learn/wireless_news/jd-power-analyzes-average-cell-phone-bill/
> According to JD Power the average cell bill is $77 per month.
>
> So 600 subs at an average of $77 per month is $46,200.  Still much nicer
> than my current $27 per month :-).
>
> How did we end up in this situation?  grin
> marlon
>
>  - Original Message -
>  From: Travis Johnson
>  To: WISPA General List
>   Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:24 PM
>  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing
>
>
>   The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan
> on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for
> $9.95/mo extra.
>
>  People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from
> month to month. Would you want that at your own home?
>
>  Travis
>  Microserv
>
>  Gary Garrett wrote:
> You sound like the cell phone company.
> I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the
> month while the cellular guys charge by the minute.
>
>
> Travis Johnson wrote:
>  Hi,
>
> You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.)
> to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the
> phone calls from users that say "My computer wasn't even turned on
> during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere."  So, even
> that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think
> about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you
> have now... does the same solution work? Probably not.
>
> The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to
> upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well).
> This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra
> income each month, even if they don't use it.
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
> --
>
>
>
>
>
>  
> 
>  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>  http://signup.wispa.org/
>
>  
> 
>
>  WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
>  Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>  http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>  Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Miami hotel

[Jeff Broadwick]

We got a 4 star Hyatt for $65 on Priceline a week or so ago. 


Regards,

Jeff


Jeff Broadwick
800-813-5123 x106 (US/Can)
+1 574-935-8484 x106  (Int'l)

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Faisal Imtiaz
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 9:59 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Miami hotel

Jump on Hotels.com and take your pick. Plenty of great places all over the
town, in all ranges of prices and amenities. To suit your taste.. 


Faisal Imtiaz
Computer Office Solutions Inc. /SnappyDSL.net
Ph: (305) 663-5518 x 232
-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 6:36 PM
To: WISPA members; WISPA General List
Subject: [WISPA] Miami hotel

Hi,

My flight plans just changed for the cruise trip, so I will need a hotel for
tomorrow (Sunday) night in Miami. Any suggestions?

Travis
Microserv




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/







WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[3-dB Networks]

To interject a bit... Cricket is unlimited everything... that is actually
how they market.

They keep costs low by really only building in metropolitan areas and not
subsidizing cell phone purchases (so all of their phones are crap).  My wife
has their service because a plan that meets her talk time and text
requirements from other carriers would be at least $100 more a month.  But
the downside is their service is crap IMHO... half the time when I try to
call her she is not getting good reception :-)

In a way though, they get the users no one else would want.  Users that will
not sign contracts (read... plenty of illegal's who can't pass a credit
check) and heavy users... like my wife.

I'd rather be a Verizon than a Cricket as a WISP anyday :-D

Daniel White
3-dB Networks
http://www.3dbnetworks.com


-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Marlon K. Schafer
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 12:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

Unlimited cell phone?  I don't buy it  There's a limit, there always is.

Also, is your "unlimited" cell phone program only $40 or $50 per month?

If I could get the same $100 to $300 per month for internet that people
often pay the cell companies I'd be able to sell them a LOT more service for
the same price they are paying now.  I could also put in much better
hardware.

Lets see, 600 subs at an average of $37 per month is $22,200 per month.  
600 subs at an average of $150 per month is $90,000 per month (and the same
number of people needed).

http://www.wirefly.com/learn/wireless_news/jd-power-analyzes-average-cell-ph
one-bill/
According to JD Power the average cell bill is $77 per month.

So 600 subs at an average of $77 per month is $46,200.  Still much nicer
than my current $27 per month :-).

How did we end up in this situation?  grin
marlon

  - Original Message - 
  From: Travis Johnson 
  To: WISPA General List 
  Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 1:24 PM
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing


  The cellular guys don't charge by the minute... I have an unlimited plan
on my cell phone. I can also get unlimited text and internet access for
$9.95/mo extra.

  People don't want to guess what their internet bills are going to be from
month to month. Would you want that at your own home?

  Travis
  Microserv

  Gary Garrett wrote: 
You sound like the cell phone company.
I am convinced the big failure in my business model is I charge by the 
month while the cellular guys charge by the minute.


Travis Johnson wrote:
  Hi,

You are talking about having to add additional resources (radius, etc.) 
to track it. Then you have to bill it. Then you get to deal with the 
phone calls from users that say "My computer wasn't even turned on 
during those times. Remove the charge or I will go elsewhere."  So, even 
that one extra phone call costs you money (because you have to think 
about scaling). Imagine if you have 100x the number of customers you 
have now... does the same solution work? Probably not.

The easier solution would be to call that customer and get them to 
upgrade to the next plan up (which would provide higher speed as well). 
This works very well for us... and then I have that guaranteed extra 
income each month, even if they don't use it.




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

  


--




 


  WISPA Wants You! Join today!
  http://signup.wispa.org/
 


   
  WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

  Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
  http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

  Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/piperm

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[Eric Rogers]

Are you suggesting some sort of metric to say they are over-using
service and to move to a higher usage service?  We have been "All you
can eat" for years but we are at a point where demand is driving
upgrades.  I have always called the customer that used double what the
norm was and explained that we are a small company and that we are doing
this because there are no other options...don't abuse it.  We are
currently switching out equipment on busy towers because of the traffic
we are seeing.  Now business wise, it was probably my mistake or
underestimation that I chose it, but it served a purpose and made money.

 

I have been looking at the explosive growth of technology and for me to
replace equipment every time something changes, or a better product
comes out, that doesn't make any financial sense because we will never
make money.  If busy towers have overage charges, that drives "extra"
revenue that can be used directly for the benefit of all customers.
(that's my logic)

 

Look at the cellular industry.  They were metered...$XX dollars for YY
minutes and $.ZZ for overage fees.  They then created a "Unlimited" plan
that is double if not triple the cost.  It is still a tiered plan and
that is totally an option.

 

My thoughts are the following:

$30/mo 768K ...Cap of 20 Gig

$40/mo 1.5M ...Cap of 40 Gig

$50/mo 3.0M ...Cap of 60 Gig

$150/mo 3.0M ...Unlimited

$1/Gig overage fee

AND any previous plan will not exceed the $150 cap.

 

If the plans won't touch 95% of the customers, there is no threat.  It
is those that are bandwidth hogs that are usually the ones that will
drop you or complain.

 

Plus, it will allow the customer to chose to move up as you suggested,
to a faster/higher cap plan.

 

Eric

 

 

 

From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Sunday, November 08, 2009 2:39 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

 

Marlon,

With thousands of wireless users, I think our "unlimited eat all you
want" is working quite well. And I can say we have 5 or 6 competitors
(DSL, wireless, cable, licensed Wimax, etc.) so there is no monopoly.
You are brining in $1k extra per month... but it would be interesting to
see how much "extra" time is being spent on that system... including the
billing, phone calls, tracking, analyzing, etc.

You would be better off to just "upgrade" those higher usage customers
to a more expensive monthly plan, and stop worrying about billing for
overage. You would make more "profit" each month by doing so.

Travis
Microserv


Marlon K. Schafer wrote: 

http://www.odessaoffice.com/services.html
 
We've done this for years.  Brandon Checkalets built the software that
we 
use.
 
We bill on usage.  Lowish base price, but relatively high overage fees.
We 
bill out about $1k per month in overages.
 
Our average customer does about 4 gigs per month.
 
We have lost a few customers due to this.  But they are net negative 
customers so I don't mind.  After all, there are two main goals in
business. 
One, turn a profit, two, make sure your competition doesn't.  Loosing 
someone that's pulling 20+ gigs per month certainly isn't helping my 
competition's services at all!
 
We just compare the billing mechanism to things people are already
paying as 
they go.  Stuff like gas, food, electricity, cell phone minutes,
clothes, 
water, tires, um, everything else in life!  If they are really sharp
I'll 
explain how the all you can eat all of the time only works if there is a

monopoly with artificially high prices for everyone else.
marlon
 
- Original Message - 
From: "Eric Rogers" 
 
To: "WISPA General List" 
 
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing
 
 
  

We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing
structure
with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off,
but they
get charged the overage.  Netflix is getting out of control and
I don't
want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally.  I
think
they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new
applications.  I just want people that download 160 GB in a
month, when
the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for
expanding
the network.
 
 
 
Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were
your
customers responses?
 
What are your tiers?
 
Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy?
 
 
 
We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send
out the
letter saying we are doing it and why.
 
 
 
Eric Rogers
 
Precision Data Solutions, LLC
 
(317) 831-3000 x200
 
 
 

-

Re: [WISPA] Miami hotel

[Rick Harnish]

I get in today at about 1:00 pm.  

Rick Harnish
260-307-4000

-Original Message-
From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
Behalf Of Jeremy Parr
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 11:12 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Miami hotel

I'm also stuck in Miami this weekend. We were headed to Mexico until
Ida changed those plans. Anyone up for a group dinner Sunday night?

On 11/7/09, Faisal Imtiaz  wrote:
> Jump on Hotels.com and take your pick. Plenty of great places all over the
> town, in all ranges of prices and amenities. To suit your taste..
>
>
> Faisal Imtiaz
> Computer Office Solutions Inc. /SnappyDSL.net
> Ph: (305) 663-5518 x 232
> -Original Message-
> From: wireless-boun...@wispa.org [mailto:wireless-boun...@wispa.org] On
> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
> Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 6:36 PM
> To: WISPA members; WISPA General List
> Subject: [WISPA] Miami hotel
>
> Hi,
>
> My flight plans just changed for the cruise trip, so I will need a hotel
for
> tomorrow (Sunday) night in Miami. Any suggestions?
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
>
>

> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>

> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
>
>


> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>


>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>

-- 
Sent from my mobile device




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 8.5.425 / Virus Database: 270.14.53/2486 - Release Date: 11/07/09
07:38:00




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/

 
WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing

[Marlon K. Schafer]

We spend about a day on admin of the program.   Per month.  So about $100.

The problem out here is that we also have a ton of competition.  And VERY 
rural markets.  And LOT of spectrum competition.  We can OFFER all of the 
higher grade services in the world, but we can't deliver them  Plus 
people out here don't value internet that highly.  We have some competition 
that does speed tiers, we're pulling customers from them almost as fast as 
we're pulling them from the sat. companies.

We just can't physically offer higher speeds to folks.

I've really toyed with the idea of trying to combine the two ideas.  Speed 
and usage limits per customer.  Yet every time I see someone try to limit 
speeds teh bandwidth to support that customer actually goes up.  Out here 
the PUD that we buy access from used to sell 100 meg pipes, even though we 
were billed for 10 megs (don't ask).  One month they actually turned on 
the throttling.  Our upstream costs INCREASED by 10 or 20%.  Even though we 
dropped our incoming speed by 90%.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: Travis Johnson
To: WISPA General List
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 11:39 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Metered Billing


Marlon,

With thousands of wireless users, I think our "unlimited eat all you want" 
is working quite well. And I can say we have 5 or 6 competitors (DSL, 
wireless, cable, licensed Wimax, etc.) so there is no monopoly. You are 
brining in $1k extra per month... but it would be interesting to see how 
much "extra" time is being spent on that system... including the billing, 
phone calls, tracking, analyzing, etc.

You would be better off to just "upgrade" those higher usage customers to a 
more expensive monthly plan, and stop worrying about billing for overage. 
You would make more "profit" each month by doing so.

Travis
Microserv


Marlon K. Schafer wrote:
http://www.odessaoffice.com/services.html

We've done this for years.  Brandon Checkalets built the software that we
use.

We bill on usage.  Lowish base price, but relatively high overage fees.  We
bill out about $1k per month in overages.

Our average customer does about 4 gigs per month.

We have lost a few customers due to this.  But they are net negative
customers so I don't mind.  After all, there are two main goals in business.
One, turn a profit, two, make sure your competition doesn't.  Loosing
someone that's pulling 20+ gigs per month certainly isn't helping my
competition's services at all!

We just compare the billing mechanism to things people are already paying as
they go.  Stuff like gas, food, electricity, cell phone minutes, clothes,
water, tires, um, everything else in life!  If they are really sharp I'll
explain how the all you can eat all of the time only works if there is a
monopoly with artificially high prices for everyone else.
marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Eric Rogers" 
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Saturday, November 07, 2009 4:56 AM
Subject: [WISPA] Metered Billing



We are on the verge of changing to a metered or tiered billing structure
with Caps that once they exceed the cap; it doesn't shut off, but they
get charged the overage.  Netflix is getting out of control and I don't
want to punish the customers that only use it occasionally.  I think
they are very innovative solutions and don't want to hinder new
applications.  I just want people that download 160 GB in a month, when
the average is nearly 10 GB a month, to pay their share for expanding
the network.



Who has dabbled in the metered/tiered services and what were your
customers responses?

What are your tiers?

Have attitudes changed toward your company as being greedy?



We already have everything in place to do it, just need to send out the
letter saying we are doing it and why.



Eric Rogers

Precision Data Solutions, LLC

(317) 831-3000 x200




WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/





WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/








WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/


WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org

Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless

Archives: http://lists.