Re: [WSG] Possibly the best CSS framework ever?
The code is not elaborate enough. I think there is scope to extend the verbosity even more. Happy April's fool's day guys. Enjoy. On Sun, Apr 1, 2012 at 10:21 AM, Hayden O'Sullivan hay...@haydensites.com.au wrote: It fooled me -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Russ Weakley Sent: Sunday, 1 April 2012 7:20 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Possibly the best CSS framework ever? On 4/1/2012 3:05 PM, Russ Weakley wrote: It's April 1st here in Australia :) Yes, I am well aware of that. Did not put two and two together. :p Apologies all who may have been confused! The MoreCSS framework is an April Fools Day gift to the web community from the folks at oxideinteractive *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc [Hons], MSc [Hons] Customer Experience Architect Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Combining media stylesheets - best practice
+1 on Henrik's remark.
On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 12:53 AM, Henrik Madsen hen...@igenerator.com.auwrote:
I would say minimising http requests is 'best practice.'
Henrik
[image: GENERATOR] http://www.igenerator.com.au/
*Henrik Madsen*
+61 08 9387 1250
hen...@igenerator.com.au
www.igenerator.com.au
On 02/03/2012, at 8:40 AM, Ben Zeller wrote:
Hi everyone,
On a recent project we've decided to combine our @print media styles at
the bottom of our main stylesheet. eg.
@media print { /* Print styles */}
In our global template, the stylesheet is imported with the media
attribute screen. Using this attribute, the print styles are ignored.
link rel=stylesheet href=css/style.css media=screen
The following markup options offer a solution to the problem:
1. link rel=stylesheet href=css/style.css
2. link rel=stylesheet href=css/style.css media=all
I guess the question I have is whether there are any caveats with either
method, and if there is a best practice solution?
The doc type is XHTML 1.0 Transitional if this is relevant.
Kind regards,
Ben Zeller
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Re: [WSG] Modal forms - what to call them?
+1 to Hassan's comment. There is no point in having two options. Just have one chunky button called 'Add record' which takes user to modal form with JS on and separate page with JS off. As long as this is coded in progressive enhancement manner everything should be fine. On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 5:18 PM, Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.comwrote: On 7/20/11 8:45 AM, Stevio wrote: I am working on a CMS and within it, when a user wishes to add a record, I give them two options: 1) Add record - this goes to a new web page with a form. 2) Add record modally - this brings up a modal dialog box containing the form which allows them to add the record without leaving the page they were on (this page lists the current records). This uses jQuery. Once they add the record, the list of records is updated using AJAX. However, I would like something shorter and simpler than 'pop-up dialog box'. Any thoughts? Just curious -- why offer a choice? Why not just offer the modal version if JS is enabled and the other if not? What is the user benefit of the non-modal option? And is it enough to justify introducing an extraneous decision into the workflow? Will the target user understand the implications of the choices and pick one unhesitatingly? Or think eh? what? :-) Just askin' ... -- Hassan Schroeder - has...@webtuitive.com webtuitive design === (+1) 408-621-3445 === http://webtuitive.com http://about.me/**hassanschroeder http://about.me/hassanschroeder twitter: @hassan dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/**mail/guidelines.cfmhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/**join/unsubscribe.cfmhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberhelp@webstandardsgroup.**orgmemberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc [Hons], MSc [Hons] Customer Experience Architect Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Modal forms - what to call them?
Stephen, I think we are talking about different context with regards to Facebook example. You don't really get side by side options on Facebook to open in separate page or open in modal window. Why does this thing need to have a 'name' anyway? Cheers, Jason On Wed, Jul 20, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Stevio redea...@freeuk.com wrote: User choice basically. They may prefer to see more of a form in its own page, or they may prefer to use a modal form to add the record. If JavaScript is disabled, the system still works fine with the non-modal form option. Take Facebook's current implementation of photos for example. A while back they introduced a modal viewing box for images. However, if you click F5 to refresh Firefox, you go back to the old style viewing of the image in it's own page. Often I do this because I prefer it, other times I persist with their viewing box. As for a user-friendly name for the modal link, so far I've come up with coolbox, float, or using an icon with an arrow. Any better suggestions? Thanks, Stephen - Original Message - From: Hassan Schroeder has...@webtuitive.com To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Wednesday, July 20, 2011 5:18 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Modal forms - what to call them? On 7/20/11 8:45 AM, Stevio wrote: I am working on a CMS and within it, when a user wishes to add a record, I give them two options: 1) Add record - this goes to a new web page with a form. 2) Add record modally - this brings up a modal dialog box containing the form which allows them to add the record without leaving the page they were on (this page lists the current records). This uses jQuery. Once they add the record, the list of records is updated using AJAX. However, I would like something shorter and simpler than 'pop-up dialog box'. Any thoughts? Just curious -- why offer a choice? Why not just offer the modal version if JS is enabled and the other if not? What is the user benefit of the non-modal option? And is it enough to justify introducing an extraneous decision into the workflow? Will the target user understand the implications of the choices and pick one unhesitatingly? Or think eh? what? :-) Just askin' ... *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/**mail/guidelines.cfmhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/**join/unsubscribe.cfmhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberhelp@webstandardsgroup.**orgmemberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc [Hons], MSc [Hons] Customer Experience Architect Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Google Les Paul tribute
HTML, CSS and JavaScript of course. On Thu, Jun 9, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Grant Bailey grant_malcolm_bai...@westnet.com.au wrote: Hello, Today's Google home page has an interactive guitar in honour of Les Paul. It makes sounds when you 'strum' the strings. I was wondering what technologies Google used to create this incredible element. It does not appear to be Flash ... does anyone know. Thank you and kind regards, Grant Bailey *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc [Hons], MSc [Hons] Customer Experience Architect Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] HTML/CSS reference
Shameless! ;-) Sent from my iPad On 6 Apr 2011, at 00:20, Russ Weakley r...@maxdesign.com.au wrote: A lot of personal opinion here... but try these books: Stunning CSS3 by Zoe Gilenwater The CSS Anthology by Rachel Andrew Designing with CSS by Andy Clarke Transcending CSS by Andy Clarke http://www.transcendingcss.com/ The Ultimate CSS reference by Tommy Olsson Paul O’Brien Building your own website the right way using HTML and CSS By Ian Lloyd One to avoid, as I have heard the author was on crack while writing it: CSS in Ten minutes by Russ Weakley :) On 06/04/2011, at 8:56 AM, Andrew Staff wrote: Hello all, I was wondering if anyone on this distribution list would have a recommendation for a great HTML/CSS reference bible? I’ve been web developing for over 10 years but only in the last 2 have I got heavier into the HTML and CSS side of things and I’d class myself as an intermediate in terms of knowledge so not looking for a starters/beginners/HTML for dummies type of reference but more a in depth, tips and tricks for layout, cross-browser compatibility tips, do’s and don’ts, etc. I have a load of web references and enjoy the links for light reading however am after a book that I can take with me on my commute and have as a reference when needed at work etc. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Kind Regards Andrew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] To marquee or not to marquee here is the question!!!
Use a marquee! Go on! Be brave! Be different! I dare you! :-D Hilarious! On Tue, Jan 18, 2011 at 1:57 PM, dionisis karampinis dkarampi...@gmail.comwrote: Greetings to everyone, I prepare a web project (wordpress), where my boss desires a horizontal news ticker scrolling from left to right at the top of my header!!! It is something i would not propose to anyone to do, but unfortunately i have to do it.. Initially i used the li scroller from http://www.gcmingati.net/wordpress/wp-content/lab/jquery/newsticker/jq-liscroll/scrollanimate.html, which is extremely slow and uses huge CPU resources, especially when using it with IE8, but almost the same thing happens with Firefox, Safari, Chrome and Opera... I cant figure out if this a .js problem or something to do with wordpress loop (as this is a custom loop which creates an unordered lists of some particular posts). At the same time marquee seems to do the job, extremely fast and without 'eating' my CPU's resources!!! I know that the particular html tag is a big NO NO these days and a not semantic element whatsoever... The situation is really tough as i need good performance and at the same time, to only use semantic elements in my code!!! If anyone has been through these problems before or knows anything about it i would really appreciate it!!! Best regards and many thanks to everyone!!! Have a good day. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] nav or menu?
This is a 'too early' post as HTML5 nav nor menu aren't really supported yet in any major browsers. So, we are speculating about how browsers might interpret these elements. You can read the HTML5 spec and see what is says about those tags, but at the end of the day browser implementation is going to dictate what is right or wrong. For now I would strongly suggest not putting either in your code, as you are simply adding bloat which serves no purpose whatsoever (until browsers start implementing these tags). Focus on the code which is going to deliver some value to your UI. Thanks, Jason On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 1:24 PM, David Laakso da...@chelseacreekstudio.comwrote: On 1/9/11 7:44 AM, designer wrote: Hi LG, I am making a site (html5) which has a nav section at the top of each page. Some pages will also have a 'menu' which will be a short list of links to other pages in the site, and these will appear lower down in the content of the page. Instinct tells me that it is sensible to make this subset as follows: menu dl ddblah/dd ddblah/dd ddblah/dd /dl /menu (where blah is a link to a page) But lots of folk seem to say that menu is only to be used for lists of commands. It's not clear to me, anyway! Is the above 'wrong'? All advice gratefully recd. Bob I do not think the above is necessarily wrong. Another approach might be: Top menu nav ul li/li ul /nav Subset menu nav ul id=s li/li ul /nav Best, ~d -- http://chelseacreekstudio.com/ http://chelseacreekstudio.com/fa/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] mobile
Takes fng years to load up on my iPhone4 through the mobile connection, so I would say that's a #fail. Optimise that by all means. Design is clean, nice chunky, prodabble buttons which is cool, but not sure of the navigation paradigm from usability perspective (couldn't test for longer as it was taking ages for each page). Overall I think it's a good first draft. Keep going. Cheers, @flexewebs Sent from my iPhone On 30 Dec 2010, at 14:10, Rick Faircloth r...@whitestonemedia.com wrote: Hi, David… Good design…and the paintings are nice, too! ;o) Two comments… 1) I recommend a “Home” link on all pages. I tried to get back “Home” and couldn’t find a way to get there, until I just happened to click on your name at the top. 2) Just a minor thing, but I think the “Show / Hide Details” would look better centered under each image. Overall, a nice clean design. Well done… Looks great on my Samsung Fascinate. Rick From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Janice Schwarz Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 4:42 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] mobile Very nice mobile design. Works great too! Sent from my Droid On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 2:16 PM, David Laakso da...@chelseacreekstudio.com wrote: If anyone has time to check this site [portrait/landscape] in their mobile device it is greatly appreciated. http://chelseacreekstudio.com/fa/ Best, ~d *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Mobile urls
First time I have come across the first convention you outline Sam, but it is an interesting proposition. I have a feeling that it is a better way (in the long term) to treat content, rather than having a mobile specific site. However, sticking an MP extension onto a page name is arguably nothing different to having that MP as a subdomain indicator (e.g. example.com/mp/page.html instead of example.com/pagemp.html). BBC also seems to mix in stuff like this: http://www.bbc.co.uk/mobile/index.html I don't think that currently there are 'generally accepted' ways of handling mobile content. There are at least 3 ways in which I can think people will handle mobile stuff right now and they are all as common as anything else. Thanks, Jason On Mon, Nov 15, 2010 at 1:05 AM, Sam Dwyer dwyer@abc.net.au wrote: Does anyone have any thoughts on the best way to handle mobile versions of content? Specifically arguments for and against how the BBC handles different formats – including mobile, simply by appending a format type to the end of a canonical url. Ie. http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007rsj5 is the base url http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007rsj5.mp is the mobile version http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007rsj5.xml is the same data in xml format http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007rsj5.rdf is the rdf representation of the data VS the generally accepted alternative to doing mobile which is to provide a different domain, such as mob. Or m. Ie. http://m.smh.com.au/ http://m.abc.net.au/ Anyone have any thoughts on pros/cons of the two methodologies? Just curious to see if anyone else has implemented the BBC method? Cheers, Sam Dwyer Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail. The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Google 'X-ray' banner
GIF indeed Sent from my iPhone On 8 Nov 2010, at 12:32, Foskett, Mike mike.fosk...@uk.tesco.com wrote: Animated GIF I believe. mike foskett http://websemantics.co.uk/ -Original Message- From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Grant Bailey Sent: 08 November 2010 12:14 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Google 'X-ray' banner Hello, Does anyone know how Google did their 'X-ray' banner that appeared today? (See http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/google/8116827/X-rays-150th-annive rsary-celebrated-with-Google-Doodle.html if the banner has been replaced.) It glows and fades. This is not Flash, so I'd love to know how they did it. Does anyone know? Is it an animated Gif, or some HTML5 trick? Thank you, Grant Bailey *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** This is a confidential email. Tesco may monitor and record all emails. The views expressed in this email are those of the sender and not Tesco. Tesco Stores Limited Company Number: 519500 Registered in England Registered Office: Tesco House, Delamare Road, Cheshunt, Hertfordshire EN8 9SL VAT Registration Number: GB 220 4302 31 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Google 'X-ray' banner
I'm now starting to believe that this is a JPEG cleverly disguised under a .GIF file extension. Oh yeah, there is a hidden message in there also talking about how YOU are Google's product (which coincidentally is the case anyway). Kill the thread please. On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 11:43 PM, Christian Snodgrass csnodgrass3...@gmail.com wrote: If anything, I think the message once decrypted would be congrats... you wasted two days of work on this message. =p On Mon, Nov 8, 2010 at 6:35 PM, tee weblis...@gmail.com wrote: Uday - It's not a JPG its an animated GIF Since the list-dad allows the continued off-topic kept running, I thought I ask this: are those symbols some sort of Da Vinci codes waiting for gifted web programmers/developer to decrypt? tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] HTML5 with Chrome
I got it to work. Various pop ups made me think of JS pranks that people played on each other at Uni in 1997 and earlier, where one sends a mate a pop up page to a porn site that cannot be closed in the middle of a computer science IT lab. :-D Ah how I miss those days! ;-) On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 3:28 PM, Tim Duffy timothy...@gmail.com wrote: Has anyone got this to work? I tried several times yesterday and it just stuck at 44%. Worked for me (chrome 5.0.375.127 on a mac) I found an edgy “Chrome Only”, HTML5 development here, http://www.chromeexperiments.com/, called The Wilderness Down and am wondering if this wasteful, at this point in time, to develop an HTML5 site like http://www.thewildernessdowntown.com/? I don't think its wasteful at all. Thanks for sharing. Tjd *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Yes or No? HTML5 FOR WEB DESIGNERS
It's still early for using HTML5 within serious sites and there's not much point. I have long ago given up on reading books about development, as by the time the book is delivered it's already out of date most of the time. By the time HTML5 is in full usable swing, there will be (I'm sure) a good enough only resource which shows/teaches how to use it. On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Fabien BENARIAC fabien.benar...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Hey ! I think that could be an interresting book... but I don't know if I will prefer to wait the second edition. In fact, I will wait some times to see how browser understand HTML5. As I have already understand, Firefox and Safari/Chrome don't use the same CSS properties ! So I think these books are just to sell papers. ;-) Fab. Le 17/08/10 16:49, jeffrey morin a écrit : Does anyone have an opinion on whether the book, HTML5 FOR WEB DESIGNERS by Jeremy Keith is worth the purchase? I want to learn more about HTML5 but am turned off by the shameless promotion they've done for this book. Does anyone have any suggestions on other books or if this is worth it? Thanks, Jeff *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Yes or No? HTML5 FOR WEB DESIGNERS
A good starting point is the spec itself I would say. You shouldn't be going far off with reading the spec or at least skimming through it. I think W3C now has the 'human optimised' version of the spec and not just the browser vendor 900+ page and growing version only. Cheers, Jason On Tue, Aug 17, 2010 at 4:12 PM, David Storey dsto...@opera.com wrote: On 17 Aug 2010, at 16:49, jeffrey morin wrote: Does anyone have an opinion on whether the book, HTML5 FOR WEB DESIGNERS by Jeremy Keith is worth the purchase? I want to learn more about HTML5 but am turned off by the shameless promotion they've done for this book. Does anyone have any suggestions on other books or if this is worth it? Depends what you want it for. I've not read it, but I heard it was a good primer to introduce you to the topic. It is a fairly short book, so doesn't go indepth. There is another book, Introducing HTML5 - introducinghtml5.com - which is more indepth. It covers the semantics and such in the first half and the JS APIs, Cavas and such in the second half. I've just started reading this, but it is by all accounts a good book. A disclaimer is that I work with one of the authors at Opera. Thanks, Jeff *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** David Storey Chief Web Opener / Product Manager, Opera Dragonfly W3C WG: Mobile Web Best Practices / SVG Interest Group Opera Software ASA, Oslo, Norway Mobile: +47 94 22 02 32 / E-Mail/XMPP: dsto...@opera.com / Twitter: dstorey *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [ADMIN} spam alert - Thread Closed Re: [WSG] RE:
Maybe the guy genuinely won a Mac from that site and couldn't resist but share the news with the rest of the world?! :-D We will never know. On Thu, Aug 12, 2010 at 10:45 AM, tee weblis...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Lea, The message of that spam is very familiar. I received similar messages from friends and a number of people I know in the past few months. It was very uncharacteristic to receive this sort of email from friends so I emailed them and learned that their gmail accounts got hacked and they were not aware of it. I don't remember seeing this guy's name, googled it, from his site I think his membership of wsg is legitimate. Maybe his gmail got hacked too. Anyone of us who uses an gmail account, maybe got hacked too without our knowledge. It's unlikely for any gmail user knows about his/her account got hacked unless notified the recipient who received a spam mail. Maybe there is a way to do this but I don't know. I changed my password after my friend told me she didn't spam my mailbox :-) tee On Aug 12, 2010, at 2:24 AM, Lea de Groot wrote: This is exactly the sort of spam we don't want here. This user is now banned with extreme prejudice. Please don't click the link as it will only encourage them! Hopefully no one else will take this as a hint for what to post here, or I will have to pull out the tactical nukes :( warmly, Lea -- Lea de Groot WSG Core Member *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] semantic structure for icon and text
Shrikant,
Under all circumstances you ought to use a background image. There will be
no issues with clicking the icon, as it will be part of the link still and
it will be clickable.
The reasons for using a background image:
- More semantic in context (as other pointed out)
- Easier to maintain and change in future
- Decreases the size of HTML file so should be better in terms of
performance
- Use one CSS sprites for all your icons, as opposed to separate images
within the img / tag - this has a major benefit on performance in terms of
minimising number of HTTP requests, which is especially important in context
of mobile browsing
- Via the CSS you can change the way things display in different contexts
(e.g mobile browsers such as BlackBerry pretty much hate CSS sprites and do
not really tolerate these inline icon images that well and you will be able
to tweak this via CSS with couple of lines of @media type code.
Hope this helps.
Best regards,
Jason
On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Shrikant Sharat
shrikantshara...@gmail.com wrote:
I think some people (like me) might click on the icon as opposed to the
link text itself. This might not work if the background image technique is
used, but I am not sure about this.
This point too, boils down to what your icon signifies in the link's
context.
2010/5/11 st...@stevegibbings.co.uk st...@stevegibbings.co.uk
Easy answer- use a background image.
Less easy answer - is the image content or just a visual representation
of existing content?
I would say the link is the real content and you are adding to that
visually with an icon image.
Steve
Sent from my iPhone
On 11 May 2010, at 10:48, Naveen Bhaskar - live naveenbhas...@live.in
wrote:
Hi,
what is the correct semantic structure for putting an icon in the
website. when I checked youtube , I see the icons loaded with css to a
spacer which is 1x1 size. Is that a good approach?
I want to show an email id with an email icon with that. can anyone
suggest me the right semantic structure .
span class=email
img src=spacer.gif alt='
a href=mailto:a...@gmail.comsome_email_id/a
/span
or
just a href=mailto:a...@gmail.comsome_email_id/a and attach the icon
with css background property for the anchor tag?
thanks a lot in advance.
.naveen_bhaskar
{
email : naveenbhaskar...@gmail.com;
yahoo : naveenbhas...@ymail.com;
}
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CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
www.flexewebs.com
ja...@flexewebs.com
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469
www.flexewebs.com/semantix
www.twitter.com/flexewebs
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs
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Re: [WSG] semantic structure for icon and text
Naveen,
It's because the YouTube guys have no clue about semantics.
Sometimes answers are very simple. ;-)
Cheers,
Jason
On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 11:55 AM, Naveen Bhaskar - live
naveenbhas...@live.in wrote:
ok.. so putting the icon as a background image is the right and best
option. I am still wondering why youtube guys did like that.
they are not using the image directly. instead they load a 1x1 spacer image
there and with css , they define the height, width and load an icon from a
css sprite to the spacer with background property. I know its some extra
code to do this.. but any idea what is the reason behind that?
naveen
*From:* Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com
*Sent:* Tuesday, May 11, 2010 4:03 PM
*To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
*Subject:* Re: [WSG] semantic structure for icon and text
Shrikant,
Under all circumstances you ought to use a background image. There will be
no issues with clicking the icon, as it will be part of the link still and
it will be clickable.
The reasons for using a background image:
- More semantic in context (as other pointed out)
- Easier to maintain and change in future
- Decreases the size of HTML file so should be better in terms of
performance
- Use one CSS sprites for all your icons, as opposed to separate images
within the img / tag - this has a major benefit on performance in terms
of
minimising number of HTTP requests, which is especially important in
context
of mobile browsing
- Via the CSS you can change the way things display in different
contexts (e.g mobile browsers such as BlackBerry pretty much hate CSS
sprites and do not really tolerate these inline icon images that well and
you will be able to tweak this via CSS with couple of lines of @media type
code.
Hope this helps.
Best regards,
Jason
On Tue, May 11, 2010 at 11:22 AM, Shrikant Sharat
shrikantshara...@gmail.com wrote:
I think some people (like me) might click on the icon as opposed to the
link text itself. This might not work if the background image technique is
used, but I am not sure about this.
This point too, boils down to what your icon signifies in the link's
context.
2010/5/11 st...@stevegibbings.co.uk st...@stevegibbings.co.uk
Easy answer- use a background image.
Less easy answer - is the image content or just a visual representation
of existing content?
I would say the link is the real content and you are adding to that
visually with an icon image.
Steve
Sent from my iPhone
On 11 May 2010, at 10:48, Naveen Bhaskar - live
naveenbhas...@live.in wrote:
Hi,
what is the correct semantic structure for putting an icon in the
website. when I checked youtube , I see the icons loaded with css to a
spacer which is 1x1 size. Is that a good approach?
I want to show an email id with an email icon with that. can anyone
suggest me the right semantic structure .
span class=email
img src=spacer.gif alt='
a href=mailto:a...@gmail.comsome_email_id/a
/span
or
just a href=mailto:a...@gmail.comsome_email_id/a and attach the
icon with css background property for the anchor tag?
thanks a lot in advance.
.naveen_bhaskar
{
email : naveenbhaskar...@gmail.com;
yahoo : naveenbhas...@ymail.com;
}
***
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Shrikant Sharat KANDULA
***
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Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
www.flexewebs.com
ja...@flexewebs.com
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469
www.flexewebs.com/semantix
www.twitter.com/flexewebs
www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs
***
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Re: [WSG] Progressive Enhancement
I wrote a piece on progressive enhancement vs. graceful degradation a little while back. http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/progressive-enhancement/ http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/progressive-enhancement/Probably could add some more concrete examples in there and make some more points, but it might be useful for you. Thanks, Jason On Fri, Feb 5, 2010 at 3:23 PM, Tom Livingston tom...@gmail.com wrote: Hello list, Does anyone have any good resources for current progressive enhancement techniques and also talking points? Google has shown me rather old articles, so I thought I'd hit you guys up for what you are doing in this area now. I am going to be doing a presentation to coworkers and I'd like to have *up-to-date* info on what the most agreed upon and accepted concepts and most used techniques are as of late. I know it can get controversial, but there must be a majority consensus on at least some things. Off-list would be fine, and probably preferred. If others are interested, email me and I can forward findings to you. Thanks in advance for any help as I dig into this. -- Tom Livingston | Senior Interactive Developer | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
@Dani Well observed. I am using WordPress presets here. Not had much time 'proving' my accessibility skills on Semantix Blog, however feel free to find such issues on Flexewebs.com. @Peter Mount I am not saying 'Accessibility does not matter!', I was asking a question rather. I don't have an argument to say not providing accessible solution for target audience is ever good. However, you lot may have a great site for a desktop user, but I (not a disabled user) will be looking at it via BlackBerry and it has a kak user experience (poor usability). Verdict: fail (in my view). Accessibility = good, usability = 0. Overall, fail. @Matthew Pennell You are confused with the 'broken wrist' issue. If I have a broken (right) wrist (I am right handed), I won't be able to use a mouse (with my right hand). I also won't be able to use keyboard with that right hand. My choice is to use the mouse or keyboard with the left hand. So your 'keyboard accessibility' example is highly flawed. What happens in practice (I can think of a circumstance where a colleague had a broken wrist at work) is that people take time off until they recover, since their work performance working with one hand is usually not good enough to be at work (think of a Project Manager typing a long report with one hand - it's not going to happen on time essentially). So in practice what happens is that (as a practical example) a Large PLC I worked for wanted to enable a 10 minute pension processing time per claim, as opposed to 30-40 minutes per claim. Even able bodied people had a problem meeting this target let alone someone with a broken wrist or who was permanently disable. In practice what happens in commercial environments is that people get assigned to roles which they can fulfil considering the disability they have. You might see this as discrimination, and I do too to a great extent, but it's the reality we live in. I think that legislation in UK also states that if an employee deems the person not to be able to do the job within expected targets, they have the right to refuse him/her work. It's just the way it is. Now for us to say that a solution costing £26M to develop, should have another £1M invested into accessibility (testing, implementing, etc.) is a bit of a far fetched argument to be honest. The way the given PLC looks at it is that 'we just won't employ disabled people for this role as they will not be able to meet our targets anyway - we will sign-post them to another role they can do'. Also Matthew can you show me some of the (best) work you have done in the past please? What's your personal website address? You seem to be very quick to judge me and my abilities, but your arguments sound pretty weak as they are not rooted in reality I have observed in the last 10 years working with various PLCs, local and Central Government in UK, number of small sites as well as coding my own web apps in spare time. Thanks, Jason On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 7:33 AM, Matthew Pennell matthewpenn...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 1:16 AM, Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com wrote: @Thierry I don't see how breaking a wrist has much to do with accessibility? Broken wrist = inability to use a mouse. If your site/intranet/app is not keyboard-accessible, how is that person supposed to use it? Now you've exposed your naivety, I suggest you let the good people of this thread educate you so you can create better work in the future. :) - Matthew *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
@Thierry I think keyboard accessibility is relatively easy thing to implement as it tends to follow naturally if one uses even semi-decent semantic HTML. It's not 'expensive' to implement. I would deem every browser based solution a total fail if it didn't have keyboard accessibility supported. However I still feel that your examples are far fetched (i.e. unlikely). Laptop track pad is likely not to be an issue as for example on my current laptop I have two onboard mice (trackpad and nipple), but I use an external mouse. Therefore I have 3 mice altogether. Chances of them all failing are minimal - virtually none. Key players (in my experience) tend to dictate their work to their secretaries and avoid using web tools as much as possible as they tend to know that's not going to keep them ahead of the game (however much we would like to think that 'tweeting is essentially for survival today'). They still prefer verbalising over the phone or such likes for some reason. I can't actually 'see' this example happening. Intranets are usually used within larger organisations. Noone inside larger organisations is irreplaceable in my experience. So your example is simply strange to me in this scenario. Essentially if large organisations were having major issues crop up because of accessibility, they would do everything in their power to implement (extra) accessibility for their intranets and web sites. That's my experience to be honest. On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 10:18 PM, Thierry Koblentz thierry.koble...@gmail.com wrote: From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Jason Grant Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 1:06 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter! @Matthew Pennell You are confused with the 'broken wrist' issue. If I have a broken (right) wrist (I am right handed), I won't be able to use a mouse (with my right hand). I also won't be able to use keyboard with that right hand. My choice is to use the mouse or keyboard with the left hand. So your 'keyboard accessibility' example is highly flawed. For many people, it is difficult to use the mouse with their other hand. It is even more difficult when a site offers very small clickable areas, pure CSS menus, etc. Things that your intranet users could be facing since you've ignored to implement basic usability/accessibility features. Also, if you can only use one hand, then it is better to keep it on the keyboard rather than switching back and forth between the keyboard and the mouse (you're more productive that way). Anyway, I have another one for you: one of the rep of your company is on the road, he logs to your Intranet to find out that the trackpad on his laptop is busted. What should he do next (beside taking some time off)? What happens in practice (I can think of a circumstance where a colleague had a broken wrist at work) is that people take time off until they recover, since their work performance working with one hand is usually not good enough to be at work (think of a Project Manager typing a long report with one hand - it's not going to happen on time essentially). Let's say that the person injured is a guy who does not use a computer all day, but he's a key player and many people rely on the data he keys in every day. Do you still send this guy home? -- Regards, Thierry | www.tjkdesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
@Thierry Why does Google not care about accessibility? Do they believe in 'Accessibility does not matter!' (rather than with ? at the end). Isn't their behaviour the same as Microsoft's with regards to HTML? Yes both of those mega-corporations are heavily involved in 'specifying the future HTML standards' in fact Google are 'running' the HTML5 spec. GMail has an HTML only version which works OK, while Google calendar seems to have no alternative - with JS off the tool is totally inaccessible. I am guessing that Google's GWT Java library is a big reason why their AJAX tools don't work with JS off, but it's a great example of where 'lack of resources' mean lack of accessibility. By resources I mean: time, money and skill, as outlined in my article. Have we concluded on 'reality of today' now, or do we need to continue down the 'Alice in Wonderland' route? On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 12:15 AM, Thierry Koblentz thierry.koble...@gmail.com wrote: Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 3:46 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter! Sorry to ask again, but please explain how the site could be made accessible whilst maintaining the same ease of use? The same ease of use?! Drop the mouse and give it a shot ;) Besides that, did you look at the markup? Deeply nested tables, DIVs in As... They just don't care. -- Regards, Thierry | www.tjkdesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
And while we are on the topic of Google, their UX principles are as follows: http://www.google.com/corporate/ux.html Please pay attention to points 6 and 7 carefully. Thanks, Jason On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 12:24 AM, Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com wrote: @Thierry Why does Google not care about accessibility? Do they believe in 'Accessibility does not matter!' (rather than with ? at the end). Isn't their behaviour the same as Microsoft's with regards to HTML? Yes both of those mega-corporations are heavily involved in 'specifying the future HTML standards' in fact Google are 'running' the HTML5 spec. GMail has an HTML only version which works OK, while Google calendar seems to have no alternative - with JS off the tool is totally inaccessible. I am guessing that Google's GWT Java library is a big reason why their AJAX tools don't work with JS off, but it's a great example of where 'lack of resources' mean lack of accessibility. By resources I mean: time, money and skill, as outlined in my article. Have we concluded on 'reality of today' now, or do we need to continue down the 'Alice in Wonderland' route? On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 12:15 AM, Thierry Koblentz thierry.koble...@gmail.com wrote: Sent: Sunday, January 31, 2010 3:46 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter! Sorry to ask again, but please explain how the site could be made accessible whilst maintaining the same ease of use? The same ease of use?! Drop the mouse and give it a shot ;) Besides that, did you look at the markup? Deeply nested tables, DIVs in As... They just don't care. -- Regards, Thierry | www.tjkdesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
@Patrick You seem to be very 'touched' by these genuine remarks I am making. You should not jump to a (very wrong) conclusion that I don't know much about accessibility. I am very comfortable within the area having worked on making a major e-commerce site fully Web2.0 and AAA accessible and knowing exactly how much work there is to build solutions which are both fully featured JS wise and accessible without JS. I think I have made it clear enough times so far that work-without-JS is not the only accessibility issue I know of (I think that various colour, font, sizing, etc. guidelines even the birds on the trees understand and know by now and they are usually matters which can be dealt with using semantic HTML and a few simple tweaks in CSS). However, work-without-JS **is** a major development overhead when it comes to developing web apps, and my argument (for the Nth time now) is that in majority of the cases work-without-JS is not worth the effort which example of both Google (e.g. Calendar) and Yahoo (e.g. Flickr) exemplifies very well. Both corporations (however) will evangelise at us how we need to make our solutions fully progressively enhanced even theirs aren't. You are not really addressing my points, you are simply always coming back with: 'JS is not the only (accessibility) issue' and 'Jason is ignorant' and so on. Come with something more concrete? A concrete example perhaps? Do you have a web app which you have coded (on your own) which is fully accessible with JS? If so, show us. If not, why not? If not, do you really feel you should be so vocal in talking about this issue since you are more than likely (in that circumstance) to not fully be understanding what I am talking about? I know I may be sounding a bit harsh, but the bottom line is that we need to start getting real about some of these things I reckon. By the way, I am not calling you ignorant or other names, since I don't know you and generally have respect for other web devs, so I think you ought to start using a more intellectual approach for the sake of the list and not making yourself look less clever than you actually are. On Mon, Feb 1, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Patrick H. Lauke re...@splintered.co.uk wrote: On 01/02/2010 00:24, Jason Grant wrote: @Thierry Why does Google not care about accessibility? Do they believe in 'Accessibility does not matter!' (rather than with ? at the end). Even large corporations can be as misguided as you, Jason. Isn't their behaviour the same as Microsoft's with regards to HTML? Yes both of those mega-corporations are heavily involved in 'specifying the future HTML standards' in fact Google are 'running' the HTML5 spec. And they're also part of the effort for accessibility http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#acknowledgments Whether they then follow the guidance they themselves have worked on is another matter, as with any large corporation. However, this does not give you a get-out-of-jail-free card. Hey, http://www.google.co.uk still uses tables (!!!) for layout. Maybe I should stop using CSS altogether then, if they don't either? I am guessing that Google's GWT Java library is a big reason why their AJAX tools don't work with JS off, but it's a great example of where 'lack of resources' mean lack of accessibility. By resources I mean: time, money and skill, as outlined in my article. For the last time: accessibility != making it work without JavaScript. It does mean that, with JavaScript, it's still accessible and usable (with keyboard, or screenreader, or screen magnifier, etc). Have we concluded on 'reality of today' now, or do we need to continue down the 'Alice in Wonderland' route? Look, let's do it this way: let's agree to disagree. You can go off and feel that you've proven your point, while the rest of us can get on with actually understanding the implications of modern, standards-based, usable and accessible web development. P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com | http://flickr.com/photos/redux/ __ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
Thanks to people who have commented via blog and email. If nothing else I think I have sparked up a healthy debate about accessibility whether I am right or wrong. I will try and reply directly to remarks made by various individuals: @Paul Novitski Harsh wording Sir. That's all I can say. As a UXD working on 12 million target user Government portal the only thing I can try and be is broad, emphatic and deep, but I also develop apps in my own spare time and have a wife and child to feed and maybe live a bit of life in spare minutes. In first instance 'full accessibility' is a must. In second, it might not be. That's my point. Where can I read your masterpieces and thoughts by the way? @Luc Glad we agree. ;-) @Peter Mount To some extent we are playing with fire developing however we are developing. Sometimes (within Intranet systems specially) we are specifically told by the client to develop for IE6/IE7 and not care about other browsers as the client is trying to save cash on testing (dev and UAT) and so on. Bottom line, there are circumstances within which 'playing with fire' is what the client wants. @Chris F.A. Johnson That page is accessible, it just looks shit in the browser you tested in (whatever you have used there - would have nice to have test environment details). I don't care. Content is visible and accessible. I am not intending to support everything under the Sun under my blog. @Mark Harris Plagiarism will get you nowhere. ;-) @Oliver Boermans IE6 / Intranets reply. Today we make a decision to use JQuery as a framework for AJAX/JS. In two year JQuery gets dropped by browsers for whatever reason and browsers no longer support it. We are once again 'playing with fire'. Do you know exactly what future holds? How do we know that everything we are doing today will not have to be re-written in 2-3 years time to be compatible. HTML4 -- HTML5 is a perfect example of a case where technology will imply some changes need to be made in order for things to keep up with time. Just a thought. Thanks for replies once again. Back to coding now. On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Lesley Lutomski ubu...@webaflame.co.uk wrote: I also agree with this, and I have a problem with someone whose view on accessibility seems to focus on the technologies, not the people using those technologies. I have a modern browser (Firefox 3.5) with full support for Javascript, Flash, etc. I also have disabilities which make it very difficult for me to use some sites which employ those technologies. If you want me, and people like me, to visit your site for more than a few seconds, then I suggest you focus on whether we can access it, not whether our computers can! Lesley Oliver Boermans wrote: On 30/01/2010, at 11:04 AM, Peter Mount i...@petermount.com wrote: Even with closed systems like intranets you're playing with fire if you don't have regard for accessibility. Agreed. Web applications built ‘for' closed intranets are the reason so many corporates still have IE6 installed. There are perfectly good selfish reasons why companies ought to consider accessibility. It's about ensuring things just work. Ollie *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
@Chris F. A. Johnson Once again, the site only looks rubbish for most part and is still accessible with larger font size. How do you propose overcoming this issue with fixed width layouts. I don't want my site to look rubbish like your for 98% of my users. Also with CSS switched off the site's content is perfectly visible with whatever default font size. @Thierry Koblentz 'Could' is not something we should be developing for. We need to know who we are developing for, otherwise it's a bit of a hit and miss. @Patrick H. Lauke 'Full accessibility' to me means a fully functional site with JS switched off, with all visual goodies in place of course (contrast, flexible font size and so on) according to WCAG1.0, to which we have so far been working. When web apps context comes in, meeting these WCAG1.0 becomes a massive burden and extra work. Clients issue - I am usually not developing for Santa Clause. Clients essentially rule the game and set the constraints which I need to meet. I am not going to invent constraints or drop anything that client requires. If they tell me 'code for IE6 only' I will tell them 'but IE8 is already in use and IE9 is round the corner, so IE6 is way beyond it's use by date, so I would not recommend what you suggest under any circumstances' and they tell me that I should not worry, I am not going to be an idiot enough to be pushing my issue as it tends to simply piss people off and make me look bad in the eyes of everyone. JS issue. When writing this article for most part I *was* thinking about JS vs. no-JS matters. To implement a proper progressively enhanced solution for a complex web app it really does take lots of thinking and additional (possibly complex) JS/AJAX code for it to work. I haven't got that time to do it with the app I am currently developing. Coincidentally can someone send me a complex-ish web app using JS that has been 'properly developed' with regards to accessibility? Anything in the wild will do. Yahoo used to taut Flickr as one, but it isn't. On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 8:56 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson ch...@cfajohnson.com wrote: On Sat, 30 Jan 2010, Jason Grant wrote: Thanks to people who have commented via blog and email. ... @Chris F.A. Johnson That page is accessible, it just looks shit in the browser you tested in (whatever you have used there - would have nice to have test environment details). The only environment detail that matters is the font size. You haven't allowed for users with a different default font size -- and that *is* a matter of accessibility. I don't care. Content is visible and accessible. I am not intending to support everything under the Sun under my blog. Why not? It's more work to prevent it working everywhere than it is to *let* it work everywhere. -- Chris F.A. Johnson http://cfajohnson.com === Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
@Chris I couldn't resist this Sir. Your site: http://chess.cfajohnson.com/ Uses two tables on the front page. The first should be a dl and both are missing thead section. Poor accessibility. It's also an unusual practice to be putting inline images into an h1, but at the very top you have h1aimg construct going on. HHmmm. Anyway. Back to my shell script. ;-) On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 10:00 PM, Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com wrote: @Chris F. A. Johnson Once again, the site only looks rubbish for most part and is still accessible with larger font size. How do you propose overcoming this issue with fixed width layouts. I don't want my site to look rubbish like your for 98% of my users. Also with CSS switched off the site's content is perfectly visible with whatever default font size. @Thierry Koblentz 'Could' is not something we should be developing for. We need to know who we are developing for, otherwise it's a bit of a hit and miss. @Patrick H. Lauke 'Full accessibility' to me means a fully functional site with JS switched off, with all visual goodies in place of course (contrast, flexible font size and so on) according to WCAG1.0, to which we have so far been working. When web apps context comes in, meeting these WCAG1.0 becomes a massive burden and extra work. Clients issue - I am usually not developing for Santa Clause. Clients essentially rule the game and set the constraints which I need to meet. I am not going to invent constraints or drop anything that client requires. If they tell me 'code for IE6 only' I will tell them 'but IE8 is already in use and IE9 is round the corner, so IE6 is way beyond it's use by date, so I would not recommend what you suggest under any circumstances' and they tell me that I should not worry, I am not going to be an idiot enough to be pushing my issue as it tends to simply piss people off and make me look bad in the eyes of everyone. JS issue. When writing this article for most part I *was* thinking about JS vs. no-JS matters. To implement a proper progressively enhanced solution for a complex web app it really does take lots of thinking and additional (possibly complex) JS/AJAX code for it to work. I haven't got that time to do it with the app I am currently developing. Coincidentally can someone send me a complex-ish web app using JS that has been 'properly developed' with regards to accessibility? Anything in the wild will do. Yahoo used to taut Flickr as one, but it isn't. On Sat, Jan 30, 2010 at 8:56 PM, Chris F.A. Johnson ch...@cfajohnson.com wrote: On Sat, 30 Jan 2010, Jason Grant wrote: Thanks to people who have commented via blog and email. ... @Chris F.A. Johnson That page is accessible, it just looks shit in the browser you tested in (whatever you have used there - would have nice to have test environment details). The only environment detail that matters is the font size. You haven't allowed for users with a different default font size -- and that *is* a matter of accessibility. I don't care. Content is visible and accessible. I am not intending to support everything under the Sun under my blog. Why not? It's more work to prevent it working everywhere than it is to *let* it work everywhere. -- Chris F.A. Johnson http://cfajohnson.com === Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux Shell (2009, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
@Thierry I don't see how breaking a wrist has much to do with accessibility? My article does not say 'break all accessibility rules' if you can. It basically tries to say that a given advanced app solution (such as Google Calendar) requires JavaScript support to work in a semi-meaningful way. This fact usually impacts users accessing the site/app with some sort of an assistive technology or a technology with shitty JavaScript support (I used BlackBerry Bold 9000 as an example of common tool used to access the app I am currently working on). From UXD point of view we want to provide target users with highest level of usability through devices they are using. That way we increase profit and ROI. Under WCAG1.0 we would be coding for 'universal accessibility' and maybe degrade overall usability of the solution, while not providing optimal support for BlackBerry (as a scenario). This is all to do with lack of resources (time, money, skills, etc.). My argument is that 'high selective accessibility' is better than 'regular universal accessibility' if that sum-up makes any sense. This is all driven by the nature of highly varied user agents on the market now, compared to what was the case some 5 years ago even. Hope this makes sense. So I am by no means against as high accessibility as possible, but I think that evaluation of 'high accessibility' needs to be approached from a clever, business angle. On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 1:03 AM, Thierry Koblentz thierry.koble...@gmail.com wrote: From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Jason Grant Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 2:14 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter! So, what are you getting at? Yes, let's make the intranet completely inaccessible and just wait until an employee with disabilities gets hired, then redo it all? Also, an employee with no disability today could have one tomorrow. @Thierry Koblentz 'Could' is not something we should be developing for. We need to know who we are developing for, As I suggested in my post, ignoring accessibility pretending you know your audience is a mistake. Because any user can become disabled one way or the other (because of a broken wrist for example). otherwise it's a bit of a hit and miss. I'd say narrowing your target audience increases your chances of missing. -- Regards, Thierry | www.tjkdesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
@Peter Title of my article is 'Accessibility does not matter?' (the question mark is very intentional there). To address your second point I will go back to the app I am currently developing. It needs a lot of JavaScript to improve usability of the tool and a progressively enhanced solution would be so far from the JavaScript solution that in reality they are like 2 different implementations of the tool. Considering this tool has already taken me 10 solid days of coding (in my spare time) without following the full progressive enhancement route and I have another 20 days solid left in order to finish the Alpha version, while I cannot envisage this tool being used by a person with a non-JS support browser. Why should I spend time coding a progressively enhanced solution for this when I don't see this tool ever being used by a disabled person of any sort? Just to clarify, the tool will work perfectly with JS on, while it will still work without JS on, but the experience will be very poor in my estimation (so it would still be possible to use it, but a blind person would not enjoy using this at all I would say). On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 1:35 AM, Peter Mount i...@petermount.com wrote: Jason your subject line is Accessibility does not matter!. If you're going to make a statement like that then I suggest you make a list of real world examples to back up your claim. Plus how can an app be useable if some people don't find it accessible? That is the flaw in your argument and it is a huge flaw. You are implying that an app can achieve greater usability by using features which in turn deny access to those users who can't use those features. How does this increased usability benefit those people who can't use it? -- Peter Mount Web Development for Business Mobile: 0411 276602 i...@petermount.com http://www.petermount.com On 31/01/2010, at 12:16 PM, Jason Grant wrote: @Thierry I don't see how breaking a wrist has much to do with accessibility? My article does not say 'break all accessibility rules' if you can. It basically tries to say that a given advanced app solution (such as Google Calendar) requires JavaScript support to work in a semi-meaningful way. This fact usually impacts users accessing the site/app with some sort of an assistive technology or a technology with shitty JavaScript support (I used BlackBerry Bold 9000 as an example of common tool used to access the app I am currently working on). From UXD point of view we want to provide target users with highest level of usability through devices they are using. That way we increase profit and ROI. Under WCAG1.0 we would be coding for 'universal accessibility' and maybe degrade overall usability of the solution, while not providing optimal support for BlackBerry (as a scenario). This is all to do with lack of resources (time, money, skills, etc.). My argument is that 'high selective accessibility' is better than 'regular universal accessibility' if that sum-up makes any sense. This is all driven by the nature of highly varied user agents on the market now, compared to what was the case some 5 years ago even. Hope this makes sense. So I am by no means against as high accessibility as possible, but I think that evaluation of 'high accessibility' needs to be approached from a clever, business angle. On Sun, Jan 31, 2010 at 1:03 AM, Thierry Koblentz thierry.koble...@gmail.com wrote: From: li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Jason Grant Sent: Saturday, January 30, 2010 2:14 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessibility does not matter! So, what are you getting at? Yes, let's make the intranet completely inaccessible and just wait until an employee with disabilities gets hired, then redo it all? Also, an employee with no disability today could have one tomorrow. @Thierry Koblentz 'Could' is not something we should be developing for. We need to know who we are developing for, As I suggested in my post, ignoring accessibility pretending you know your audience is a mistake. Because any user can become disabled one way or the other (because of a broken wrist for example). otherwise it's a bit of a hit and miss. I'd say narrowing your target audience increases your chances of missing. -- Regards, Thierry | www.tjkdesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs
[WSG] Accessibility does not matter!
Hello friends, I was going to post a big debate on 'Why accessibility doesn't matter' to this list, but have delegated it to a blog post on the similar subject instead. I feel there has been LOADS of 'accessibility is a must' type discussion on this list, but at the same time I feel that there is loads of arguments which are essentially 'accessibility for the sake of accessibility'. My point is that we are heading towards the times where 'relevant accessibility' is more important than 'accessibility' per se. Please have a read of my article and comment via email or on the blog itself. http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/accessibility-does-not-matter/ Thank you very much. Regards, Jason -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] [WSG Announce] Some links for light reading (22/12/09)
Rimantas, How can you be so sure yourself about what you just posted regarding HTML5 vs. XHTML? Thanks, Jason http://flexewebs.com/semantix On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 11:46 AM, Rimantas Liubertas riman...@gmail.comwrote: Will HTML5 make the Web even more invalid? http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/html5-make-web-more-invalid/ Can you provide any reason why you keep posting links to this site? Yes the blog _seems_ to be about web standards, but the posts are just speculation of poor quality and based on the lack of information, misunderstanding and false assumptions. Sure, the guy has financial interest of keeping xhtml afloat, so he may see the HTML5 as a threat, but that's not a good enough reason to spout nonsense. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] [WSG Announce] Some links for light reading (22/12/09)
I reckon HTML5 Nazis should chill our regarding the XHTML debates as HTML5 and XHTML are interchangeable terms. Comments like this other guy made just add unnecessary negativity to the whole thing. Russ is a legend in his own right and no one should even attempt to cyber bully him. ;-) On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 10:26 PM, Jeremy Cabral jeremy.cab...@gmail.comwrote: +1 for my weekly dose of Some links for light reading! Jeremy Cabral mobile: 0410 319 212 // skype: jeremycabral On Wed, Dec 23, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Jean-Jacques Halans hal...@gmail.comwrote: Keep em coming Russ! They are links for light reading after all, not gospel. It obviously worked in provoking discussion. (And I reserve the right to keep my opinion about the original commenter to myself ;-) JJ Halans Great minds discuss ideas. Average minds discuss events. Small minds discuss people. - Eleanor Roosevelt 2009/12/23 Russ Weakley r...@maxdesign.com.au Hi Rimantas Why did I post this link? Because the article has an interesting take on HTML5. This does mean that I agree or disagree with the article. I hoped that the article would lead to discussion and debate. I had also hoped that any discussion or debate would be conducted in a respectful manor (regardless of how strongly one feels that the other party is incorrect) and that anyone involved in the discussion would present their arguments rationally and calmly without sinking to personal attacks on other web standards group members (yes, the person who wrote the article is a member of this group). Ahhh... I give up... there is no hope. Russ On 22/12/2009, at 10:46 PM, Rimantas Liubertas wrote: Will HTML5 make the Web even more invalid? http://rebuildingtheweb.com/en/html5-make-web-more-invalid/ Can you provide any reason why you keep posting links to this site? Yes the blog _seems_ to be about web standards, but the posts are just speculation of poor quality and based on the lack of information, misunderstanding and false assumptions. Sure, the guy has financial interest of keeping xhtml afloat, so he may see the HTML5 as a threat, but that's not a good enough reason to spout nonsense. Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] [WSG Announce] Some links for light reading (22/12/09)
Rimantas: HTML5 guys keep saying that HTML5 supports XML syntax, hence us XHTML freaks can use XHTML5 without having to complain about anything. Maybe have a discussion with our friend Bruce Lawson who will essentially tell you the same thing. I think you are being a bit too harsh on our friend Russ for posting some links. I regularly disagree with a lot of stuff he posts, but I leave a comment on the relevant blog to express my view, not blaming the messenger in the process. The world we live in is pretty strange. If HTML5 kicks in officially at some point, it will be even stranger. There's no doubt about that in my mind. Regards, Jason On Tue, Dec 22, 2009 at 10:45 PM, Rimantas Liubertas riman...@gmail.comwrote: I reckon HTML5 Nazis I thought I was being rude there… should chill our regarding the XHTML debates as HTML5 and XHTML are interchangeable terms. How so? HTML5 has XML serialization, but that does not make HTML5 and XHTML interchangeable in any way. Comments like this other guy made just add unnecessary negativity to the whole thing. So no matter how wrong someone is nobody can say that without being unnecessary negative? Russ is a legend in his own right and no one should even attempt to cyber bully him. ;-) Asking for a basic QA when choosing links for light reading counts as cyber bullying? This place gets stranger and stranger… Regards, Rimantas -- http://rimantas.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Is pressing Enter to submit (or not) on forms an accessability issue? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED]
This issue has very little (if anything) to do with accessibility. The functionality in question is accessible via hitting a button or hitting an enter key. Perhaps it would be better to ask whether the enter functionality is usable and whether it might cause annoyances for users who are not familiar with ancient, default browser presets? Thanks, Jason On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 1:24 AM, Nathanael Boehm n...@purecaffeine.comwrote: Hi Chris, I'm not sure I'd agree with Jason on if it's a native browser behaviour/function then it's accessible. I see what he's getting at and technically it's accessible, just as progressive enhancement is box-ticking accessibility ... but I believe you'd have to test it to determine whether it's accessible or not. It depends on the context of the form, what instructional text has been provided to the user, their expectations of that particular form on that page in the context of that particular web site. It's a unique situation and the provision of Enter key submission or suppression could swing both ways. Does the Enter key submit on other forms? Does it submit or cancel? Is the behaviour consistent across the site? Do you differentiate between single field forms and full page forms? Nathanael Boehm http://www.purecaffeine.com/about/ Canberra, Australia 0409 288 464 On Wed, Oct 21, 2009 at 11:03 AM, ja...@flexewebs.com wrote: Hi Chris, The submission by pressing enter is a native browser behaviour, hence is not an accessibility issue. You will only be able to submit via enter from an input field and not from a textarea, which you have to tab out of and then hit enter. So I doubt you will find any references to back-up your claim. If you do, send it through so we can debunk it. :-D Best, Jason Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -- *From: * Chris Vickery chris.vick...@privacy.gov.au *Date: *Wed, 21 Oct 2009 10:20:51 +1100 *To: *...@webstandardsgroup.orgwsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject: *[WSG] Is pressing Enter to submit (or not) on forms an accessability issue? [SEC=UNCLASSIFIED] We’re accessibility testing at the moment. We’ve got some email forms (ie. Put in your email address to subscribe - submit) that do not currently submit if you press enter. Personally I feel this should be an accessibility issue, but I am finding it difficult to locate any solid documentation to back up my claim. I’ve had the argument put to me that a keyboard only user could still tab to the submit button, then press enter, but this seems very unintuitive to me to force users to do this. I’ve also had put to me that some users get confused if they want to put line breaks in a field and submit by accident... and so to be consistent pressing enter should never submit a form. (data entry people would love that one :P) Is submitting by pressing enter from a form best practice, or just common practice? Is it an accessibility problem? ... and to what degree? *** WARNING: The information contained in this email may be confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, any use or copying of any part of this information is unauthorised. If you have received this email in error, we apologise for any inconvenience and request that you notify the sender immediately and delete all copies of this email, together with any attachments. *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Re: More than one H1?
Hi Christian, Google also use table layout for their pages, inline styles, don't use labels with input fields and so on. The fact that they use H1 around the logo just shows that they don't require SEO work. ;-) So your mention of Google using H1 around the logo does not illustrate anything. Thanks, Jason On Sun, Oct 18, 2009 at 6:06 PM, Christian Fagan c...@fagandesign.com.auwrote: Agree with pretty much everything below. There seems to be no compelling reason to wrap the logo in a H1but there seems to be no compelling reason not to. I'm probably swaying towards not wrapping the logo in a H1 any moreI doubt it will have much effect on SEO anyway. One final point regarding this topic... *Google wraps their logo in a H1* http://www.google.com.au/#hl=ensource=hpq=searchbtnG=Google+Searchmeta=aq=foq=searchfp=2b6a54a9ce7131a8 I need a coffee... - Christian Fagan - Fagan Design - fagandesign.com.au - p: (+613) 9314-1841 Darren Lovelock wrote: Enough Darren bashing LOL My apologies for attacking so head-on but it looked to me that your only intention was to attempt to boost your website rankings and that is something that Google definitely advises against - build websites for your visitors and not the search engines. You mind telling me which of the websites you referenced include more than one H1? That's what this discussion is about right? Also most of them had a lot of html errors so not exactly good examples of great web design. Apart from the BBC website of course - great website ;) You said that you would include an H1 wrapped around the logo AND and an additional H1 didn't you? You wanted to know its effect on SEO? Multiple H1's dilute the relevance of the page and if stuffed with keywords will only hinder a websites rankings rather than help them. That is why the SEO you spoke to would recommend to use just *one* H1. http://www.searchenginejournal.com/seo-checklist-using-page-headings-correctly/7723/ The reason why designers have had a need to place an H1 around the logo is because the H1 should be first in a documents heading structure, it was to comply with WCAG guidelines. Due to multiple column layouts a H2 could easily come before the H1. Read more here - http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200901/headings_heading_hierarchy_and_document_outlines/ Your reason however was because you believe the logo to be of equal importance as the H1 lower down the page (for rankings?), not to meet accessibility guidelines. My opinion is a logo is not a heading, it is a logo. I agree however there should be a tag to give the logo more precedence on the page but a heading is not the correct tag. A *logo* is a graphical element (ideogramhttp://www.answers.com/topic/ideogram, symbol http://www.answers.com/topic/symbol, emblemhttp://www.answers.com/topic/emblem, icon http://www.answers.com/topic/icon, signhttp://www.answers.com/topic/sign) that, together with its *logotype* (a uniquely set and arranged typefacehttp://www.answers.com/topic/typeface) form a trademark http://www.answers.com/topic/trademark or commercial brand http://www.answers.com/topic/brand. Typically, a logo's design is for immediate recognition.[1]http://www.answers.com/logo#cite_note-wheeler_dbi_pg4-0The logo is one aspect of a company's commercial brand http://www.answers.com/topic/brand, or economic or academic entity, and its shapes, colors, fonts, and images usually are different from others in a similar market. Logos are also used to identify organizations and other non-commercial entities. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logo By using microformats or the RDFA doctype you can identify the logo in a vcard along with your company details. Darren Lovelock Munky Online Web Design http://www.munkyonline.co.uk T: +44 (0)20-8816-8893 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Re: More than one H1?
Once again I have to come back to this great thread - one of the best discussions in the long time on this mailing list: - BBC uses H1 on the logo on the home page, but around the article title on article specific page (e.g. view-source:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8312126.stm) - Also worthy of note is that behind the logo on homepage they use the full phrase of 'British Broadcasting Corporation' following the CSS swapping technique that was outlined - Everything we post here is an opinion of course - Following my recommendation(s) I think will achieve the best of all worlds for a given site - I agree that '1 qualified customer is better than 100 unqualified ones' - Nowadays we really need to take into account mobile device interoperability and usability and should also consider screen reader users wherever relevant I am going to update my post to reflect some of the exceptions to the rule we have discussed here, so that they are not lost in the long term. Thanks people and have a nice day, Jason On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Christian Fagan c...@fagandesign.com.auwrote: Thanks for all your responsesI didn't expect this topic to be so clouded. For me and this particular site I'm working on, the problem still remainswhile Jason's article is well written, it doesn't use any *governing body (eg. W3C/Google) references* as basis for it's conclusions...it is merely an opinion. An Information Architecture opinion. Sure, I agree with alot of the article and completely understand the opinion but it is still.an opinion. Semantic structure is very much about opinion and interpretation. My personal interpretation of this common problem was (and still is) that there is no reason why multiple H1s can't be used on one page *AND no reason*(semantic/IA/SEO/common sense) why an H1 can't wrap the logo. My interpretation is that it is logical and important. Having said that, I was ready to heed the advice of many on this thread and remove the H1 around the logo as it seemed to be the general consensusbut there seems to be a number of people who disagree and I'm still yet to read anything from Google or W3C that says it is, indeed, bad practice. Google, themselves (as the youTube video explains) says it is *not bad *practice. H1 denotes a heading. This I acknowledge. From a semantic point of view, maybe the logo is not a heading at all.or maybe it is the premier heading. Depends on whether you view a web page as a plain text document or an interactive piece of media. In an interactive page, can a heading not be *something other than text? A logo perhaps? * To answer a few pointed questions: Maybe they should listen to the SEO expert they've already spoken to... - from Darren Lovelock. I generally make a point of not believing everything I read or hear, so excuse me for having an opinion different to that of a so-called SEO expert and following up my opinion. It seems, outside of Google index engineers, no-one really knows exactly what effect page elements and content have on search results...SEO experts seem to be professionals who have come up with a best guess system. In reference to: Did they see it on some 'SEO's website and think 'they must know what they are doing so I'll copy them'? LOL Yes Darren, I have seen it on many sites, many large sites that spend tens of thousands of $$$ every year on SEO. Are you suggesting that your knowledge of web design/IA/SEO come purely from W3C guidelines and Google spec sheets? Are you suggesting you are not influenced by the design/IA/semantic structure/SEO methods of massive online companies? Wow, that is impressivethe purity of your knowledge must be profound. It must be amazing to talk with you one-on-one. Some examples for you to mull over: Top tier (pretty big) Australian sites: - www.theage.com.au - www.smh.com.au - www.mycareer.com.au - www.domain.com.au - www.drive.com.au International sites: - http://www.bbc.co.uk/ I love this line: ...using the the method I and many other good web designers have adopted: Anyways, enough Darren bashing Re: Adam Martin (writing after having a few afternoon bevvies in Thailand): In saying this I don't believe in focussing on SEO - no point in getting the search engines find you if you only lose the customer when they come to your site. I always focus on the customer and the information they want to find. Customer Optimisation will always pay off much more than SEO can ever dream of - 1 qualified customers is much better than 100 non qualified. I love the way this is written - definitely puts things in perspective Thankyou all for your responses. Many well spoken and informative people on this list, which I appreciate. - Christian Fagan - Fagan Design - fagandesign.com.au - p: (+613) 9314-1841 Oliver Boermans wrote: 2009/10/16 Jason Grant ja
Re: [WSG] Re: More than one H1?
Oh yes, and let's not forget that Google isn't the only search engine on the planet too. :-) On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com wrote: Once again I have to come back to this great thread - one of the best discussions in the long time on this mailing list: - BBC uses H1 on the logo on the home page, but around the article title on article specific page (e.g. view-source:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8312126.stm) - Also worthy of note is that behind the logo on homepage they use the full phrase of 'British Broadcasting Corporation' following the CSS swapping technique that was outlined - Everything we post here is an opinion of course - Following my recommendation(s) I think will achieve the best of all worlds for a given site - I agree that '1 qualified customer is better than 100 unqualified ones' - Nowadays we really need to take into account mobile device interoperability and usability and should also consider screen reader users wherever relevant I am going to update my post to reflect some of the exceptions to the rule we have discussed here, so that they are not lost in the long term. Thanks people and have a nice day, Jason On Sat, Oct 17, 2009 at 12:18 PM, Christian Fagan c...@fagandesign.com.auwrote: Thanks for all your responsesI didn't expect this topic to be so clouded. For me and this particular site I'm working on, the problem still remainswhile Jason's article is well written, it doesn't use any *governing body (eg. W3C/Google) references* as basis for it's conclusions...it is merely an opinion. An Information Architecture opinion. Sure, I agree with alot of the article and completely understand the opinion but it is still.an opinion. Semantic structure is very much about opinion and interpretation. My personal interpretation of this common problem was (and still is) that there is no reason why multiple H1s can't be used on one page *AND no reason*(semantic/IA/SEO/common sense) why an H1 can't wrap the logo. My interpretation is that it is logical and important. Having said that, I was ready to heed the advice of many on this thread and remove the H1 around the logo as it seemed to be the general consensusbut there seems to be a number of people who disagree and I'm still yet to read anything from Google or W3C that says it is, indeed, bad practice. Google, themselves (as the youTube video explains) says it is *not bad *practice. H1 denotes a heading. This I acknowledge. From a semantic point of view, maybe the logo is not a heading at all.or maybe it is the premier heading. Depends on whether you view a web page as a plain text document or an interactive piece of media. In an interactive page, can a heading not be *something other than text? A logo perhaps? * To answer a few pointed questions: Maybe they should listen to the SEO expert they've already spoken to... - from Darren Lovelock. I generally make a point of not believing everything I read or hear, so excuse me for having an opinion different to that of a so-called SEO expert and following up my opinion. It seems, outside of Google index engineers, no-one really knows exactly what effect page elements and content have on search results...SEO experts seem to be professionals who have come up with a best guess system. In reference to: Did they see it on some 'SEO's website and think 'they must know what they are doing so I'll copy them'? LOL Yes Darren, I have seen it on many sites, many large sites that spend tens of thousands of $$$ every year on SEO. Are you suggesting that your knowledge of web design/IA/SEO come purely from W3C guidelines and Google spec sheets? Are you suggesting you are not influenced by the design/IA/semantic structure/SEO methods of massive online companies? Wow, that is impressivethe purity of your knowledge must be profound. It must be amazing to talk with you one-on-one. Some examples for you to mull over: Top tier (pretty big) Australian sites: - www.theage.com.au - www.smh.com.au - www.mycareer.com.au - www.domain.com.au - www.drive.com.au International sites: - http://www.bbc.co.uk/ I love this line: ...using the the method I and many other good web designers have adopted: Anyways, enough Darren bashing Re: Adam Martin (writing after having a few afternoon bevvies in Thailand): In saying this I don't believe in focussing on SEO - no point in getting the search engines find you if you only lose the customer when they come to your site. I always focus on the customer and the information they want to find. Customer Optimisation will always pay off much more than SEO can ever dream of - 1 qualified customers is much better than 100 non qualified. I love the way this is written - definitely puts things in perspective Thankyou all for your responses. Many well spoken and informative people
Re: [WSG] Re: More than one H1?
? * To answer a few pointed questions: Maybe they should listen to the SEO expert they've already spoken to... - from Darren Lovelock. I generally make a point of not believing everything I read or hear, so excuse me for having an opinion different to that of a so-called SEO expert and following up my opinion. It seems, outside of Google index engineers, no-one really knows exactly what effect page elements and content have on search results...SEO experts seem to be professionals who have come up with a best guess system. In reference to: Did they see it on some 'SEO's website and think 'they must know what they are doing so I'll copy them'? LOL Yes Darren, I have seen it on many sites, many large sites that spend tens of thousands of $$$ every year on SEO. Are you suggesting that your knowledge of web design/IA/SEO come purely from W3C guidelines and Google spec sheets? Are you suggesting you are not influenced by the design/IA/semantic structure/SEO methods of massive online companies? Wow, that is impressivethe purity of your knowledge must be profound. It must be amazing to talk with you one-on-one. Some examples for you to mull over: Top tier (pretty big) Australian sites: - www.theage.com.au - www.smh.com.au - www.mycareer.com.au - www.domain.com.au - www.drive.com.au International sites: - http://www.bbc.co.uk/ I love this line: ...using the the method I and many other good web designers have adopted: Anyways, enough Darren bashing Re: Adam Martin (writing after having a few afternoon bevvies in Thailand): In saying this I don't believe in focussing on SEO - no point in getting the search engines find you if you only lose the customer when they come to your site. I always focus on the customer and the information they want to find. Customer Optimisation will always pay off much more than SEO can ever dream of - 1 qualified customers is much better than 100 non qualified. I love the way this is written - definitely puts things in perspective Thankyou all for your responses. Many well spoken and informative people on this list, which I appreciate. - Christian Fagan - Fagan Design - fagandesign.com.au - p: (+613) 9314-1841 Oliver Boermans wrote: 2009/10/16 Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com: Ollie you are threading a dangerous ground there. Explained here why you are wrong: http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/semantic-uses-of-h1-h2-h6-html-tags/ Good link for this thread Jason. Although I don’t understand why the company name would be inappropriate semantically to use as the h1 on the home page. The home page represents the company. If I Google for a company with it’s name as a keyword I would expect to find their home page. Using it on every page of the site is a different matter. For this to work the 'logo' would be text which would be styled with CSS to look like the logo in a browser. As an alternative I expect the alt text of an image would likely suffice (not so sure on this one). To put on my hat with horns to present a possible issue with my own suggestion; I would point out that using a different structure between pages of a site can be confusing for a screenreader user; But then, home pages often are a different structure to topic-specific sub pages anyway so I don’t expect anyone would get upset about it. I’ve been doing this for a few years now so if I’m wrong I’m keen to be corrected! … The defence for using two h1 elements in a page makes some sense to me from the same perspective that it makes sense to put the company name in every page title alongside the subject of the page eg: [title]SEO and semantics - WSG blog[/title]. You have to draw the line somewhere though, as too much emphasis is no emphasis at all. Interesting discussion - thanks to those at WDS09 who introduced me to this group! -- Ollie Boermans @ollicle *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company
Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)
I attempted this very topic before in a blog post: http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/semantic-uses-of-h1-h2-h6-html-tags/ http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/semantic-uses-of-h1-h2-h6-html-tags/Hope it makes sense. Thanks, Jason On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 9:08 AM, c...@fagandesign.com.au wrote: Thanks for your responses... Why use more than one H1? Simple...2 areas of the page that are of equal importance. Why should it only be one? I understand the simplicity of focusing on one area of each page and the impact that could have in search resultsbut that that doesn't entirely relate to semantic structure. Is it not entirely plausible/acceptable to have 2 equally important area of the page? I feel the logo is very important. It is, in theory, the first thing people notice on a site and the single most important bit of branding. I understand also that a H1 is important to search engines indexingbut I'm yet to see/read/hear of any solid information that suggests Google (in particular) degrade the rank of your site based on the existence of more than one H1. Quoting Yuval Ararat yara...@gmail.com: Its not specified any where that a single H1 is the right approach. SEO guys have found that google search engine tends to read the H1 as the main subject and decided to punish any page with more then one. the punishment is not severe so not every one of the major sites obey. In HTML 5 there is a huge discussion about the header taghttp://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/header.html#headerandhttp://dev.w3.org/html5/markup/header.html#header%3Eandthe existance of h1 inside of it. my take is that this will not catch and only google and bing indexing will set the way they want to structure of pages to be. On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:45 PM, c...@fagandesign.com.au wrote: Hi all, have come across something that I'm sure has come up before... Have created a new site with the logo wrapped in a H1 tag. The title of each page is also a H1. Just got word back from an outsourced SEO expert who says it's probably better if there was only one H1 on each page. Does anyone know of any online resources backing up this theory? I don't think it's a huge SEO concern at all but the signature on my return email doesn't have SEO expert on it. Many thanks. Christian Fagan Fagan Design fagandesign.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] Re: More than one H1?
Ollie you are threading a dangerous ground there. Explained here why you are wrong: http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/semantic-uses-of-h1-h2-h6-html-tags/ http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/semantic-uses-of-h1-h2-h6-html-tags/ Thanks, Jason On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Oliver Boermans boerm...@gmail.comwrote: 2009/10/16 Adam Martin ajmartin...@gmail.com: Again the logo is usually only the most important thing to the owner - not the customer - the customer will recognise if they are on the right site or not. I believe it”s appropriate to represent the logo as a h1 on a site’s home page, unless you are using a positioning statement in the page title of home page. In which case it would be best to apply the h1 to that within the page. HTH -- Ollie Boermans @ollicle *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)
Tim, Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must. However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we give it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best practices as well as general semantics and IA best practices. So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not the be all and end all of guidelines. Thanks, Jason On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White tjameswh...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld m...@langfeldesigns.comwrote: ... H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, there's only one title, while there may be many first level headings. ... So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page. Let's look at what the specification says; A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a table of contents for a document automatically. There are six levels of headings in HTML with H1http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-H1 as the most important and H6http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in larger fonts than less important ones. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5 Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be only 1 per page. In fact, the example shows two being used. ~ Tim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)
Yuval, Everything exists on the Internet, but it doesn't mean it's good. So pages with multiple subject do exist, they are just known as 'bad pages' from IA perspective. ;-) On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 1:10 PM, Yuval Ararat yara...@gmail.com wrote: I am not sure that a page with multiple important subject does not exist. so IA wise and semantic wise this is not a must. google wise it is. On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 10:55 PM, Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com wrote: Tim, Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must. However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we give it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best practices as well as general semantics and IA best practices. So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not the be all and end all of guidelines. Thanks, Jason On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White tjameswh...@gmail.comwrote: On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld m...@langfeldesigns.com wrote: ... H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, there's only one title, while there may be many first level headings. ... So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page. Let's look at what the specification says; A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a table of contents for a document automatically. There are six levels of headings in HTML with H1http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-H1 as the most important and H6http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in larger fonts than less important ones. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5 Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be only 1 per page. In fact, the example shows two being used. ~ Tim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest)
Tim To keep it really simple: Spec + SEO + Good IA + Semantics + Accessibility + Common sense == One H1 per page Hope this makes sense? Thanks, Jason On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Tim White tjameswh...@gmail.com wrote: OK, straight from Google Webmaster Central: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VMfeature=channel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VMfeature=channel(video from March 2009) Tim On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com wrote: Tim, Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must. However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we give it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best practices as well as general semantics and IA best practices. So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not the be all and end all of guidelines. Thanks, Jason On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White tjameswh...@gmail.comwrote: On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld m...@langfeldesigns.com wrote: ... H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, there's only one title, while there may be many first level headings. ... So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page. Let's look at what the specification says; A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a table of contents for a document automatically. There are six levels of headings in HTML with H1http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-H1 as the most important and H6http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in larger fonts than less important ones. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5 Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be only 1 per page. In fact, the example shows two being used. ~ Tim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
EBS Admin - Matt doesn't say to use multiple H1s on the page, but says that you will not get penalised for using them (within reason) on a given page. Every site I ever worked on I had used only one H1 on and it still enjoys being on first page of Google. My formula, hence, does not only say Google or only Accessibility, but all of the points I mentioned. You say it is semantic to use more than one H1, but don't actually justify your reasoning behind it. On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:02 PM, EBS Admin ad...@essentialebizsolutions.net wrote: Jason, Thats clearly not the case, if you read the WIA guidlines then is advocates the use of multiple H1's, from an semantic point of view they make sense and in terms of SEO the make sense because every site we've built uses mutiple H1's and they enjoy page 1 results on Google. The video that Tim has just sent in is by Google and they say to use multiple H1's! -- *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Grant *Sent:* 16 October 2009 14:48 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest) Tim To keep it really simple: Spec + SEO + Good IA + Semantics + Accessibility + Common sense == One H1 per page Hope this makes sense? Thanks, Jason On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Tim White tjameswh...@gmail.com wrote: OK, straight from Google Webmaster Central: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VMfeature=channel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VMfeature=channel(video from March 2009) Tim On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.comwrote: Tim, Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must. However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we give it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best practices as well as general semantics and IA best practices. So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not the be all and end all of guidelines. Thanks, Jason On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White tjameswh...@gmail.comwrote: On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld m...@langfeldesigns.com wrote: ... H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, there's only one title, while there may be many first level headings. ... So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page. Let's look at what the specification says; A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents, for example, to construct a table of contents for a document automatically. There are six levels of headings in HTML with H1http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-H1 as the most important and H6http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#edef-H6 as the least. Visual browsers usually render more important headings in larger fonts than less important ones. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/struct/global.html#h-7.5.5 Nowhere does it say that H1s are for page titles or that there can be only 1 per page. In fact, the example shows two being used. ~ Tim *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org
Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1?
That's only relevant if your site has a keyword in the logo (e.g. Free Online Games), where each of the words is a form of a keyword, while if your site is called MiniClip, there is not much point in wrapping H1 around it. On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:52 PM, EBS Admin ad...@essentialebizsolutions.net wrote: The way to wrap the H1 for the logo is not to wrap it around an image, the fist H1 should be text with keywords for the page that is being represented in a grammatical format, with clever use of CSS these can be styled up to look like graphic logos but degrade for accessibility and provide a tool to get the H1 as the first element in a page whilst complementing the semantics, accessibility and seo requirements. -- *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On Behalf Of *ja...@flexewebs.com *Sent:* 16 October 2009 15:45 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1? Yes but my argument against putting the H1 around the logo is that the logo is present on all pages and typically each site will be optimised for it's brand name (e.g. Flexewebs) so no value in highlighting that. I would potentially agree with you if you were arguing for putting H1 around other content within the page, but certainly not the logo. Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device -- *From: *EBS Admin ad...@essentialebizsolutions.net *Date: *Fri, 16 Oct 2009 15:36:00 +0100 *To: *wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject: *RE: [WSG] RE: More than one H1? Okay so the justify, the first H1 is the title of a page which is to be shown at the top of a page commonly used as the logo. The next h1 will be the subject title i.e. Welcome to... so semantically this would require more the 1 H1. For accessibility which styles switched off it clearly breaks up the pages, and has a similar effect for screen readers. Hope this makes it a little clearer. -- *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Grant *Sent:* 16 October 2009 15:25 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: [WSG] RE: More than one H1? EBS Admin - Matt doesn't say to use multiple H1s on the page, but says that you will not get penalised for using them (within reason) on a given page. Every site I ever worked on I had used only one H1 on and it still enjoys being on first page of Google. My formula, hence, does not only say Google or only Accessibility, but all of the points I mentioned. You say it is semantic to use more than one H1, but don't actually justify your reasoning behind it. On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 3:02 PM, EBS Admin ad...@essentialebizsolutions.net wrote: Jason, Thats clearly not the case, if you read the WIA guidlines then is advocates the use of multiple H1's, from an semantic point of view they make sense and in terms of SEO the make sense because every site we've built uses mutiple H1's and they enjoy page 1 results on Google. The video that Tim has just sent in is by Google and they say to use multiple H1's! -- *From:* li...@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:li...@webstandardsgroup.org] *On Behalf Of *Jason Grant *Sent:* 16 October 2009 14:48 *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* Re: More than one H1? (was [WSG] Out of Office AutoReply: WSG Digest) Tim To keep it really simple: Spec + SEO + Good IA + Semantics + Accessibility + Common sense == One H1 per page Hope this makes sense? Thanks, Jason On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Tim White tjameswh...@gmail.com wrote: OK, straight from Google Webmaster Central: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VMfeature=channel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIn5qJKU8VMfeature=channel(video from March 2009) Tim On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 7:55 AM, Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.comwrote: Tim, Well done for reading the spec - it's always a must. However, Google came after the HTML4.01 spec and what Google wants we give it - so the 'only one H1 per page' guideline comes from SEO best practices as well as general semantics and IA best practices. So the spec does not tell you to use one H1 per page, but the spec is not the be all and end all of guidelines. Thanks, Jason On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tim White tjameswh...@gmail.comwrote: On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 4:23 AM, Marilyn Langfeld m...@langfeldesigns.com wrote: ... H1 is reserved for the title of the page. In a document, at least, there's only one title, while there may be many first level headings. ... So H1 is, IMHO, not the first level header, but the T1, or main title of the page. A logo is never, IMHO again, the title of the page. Let's look at what the specification says; A heading element briefly describes the topic of the section it introduces. Heading information may be used by user agents
Re: [WSG] The 'Some Links for Light Reading' posts
I also second that. It's become a part of my routine whenever the links come in to comb through them and check out what's going on right now regarding CSS and HTML techniques. :-) On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Russ Weakley r...@maxdesign.com.auwrote: Thanks everyone for kind words! Remember, you can email me any time if you have events, resources, new applications, articles or links you want to share/pimp etc :) Thanks Russ On 23/09/2009, at 5:43 PM, Frank Palinkas wrote: Indeed. Spot on Captain! Med vennlig hilsen / Kind regards, Frank M. Palinkas Technical Writer, Opera Software Documentation Localization Core Engineering Consumer Products Mobile: (+47) 95 17 61 11 http://dev.opera.com/articles/accessibility/ On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 7:52 AM, lisa.kerri...@iird.vic.gov.au wrote: me too! fabulous stuff Lisa Kerrigan | Manager Content User Experience www.business.vic.gov.au; www.diird.vic.gov.au ' +61 3 9651 9176 8 lisa.kerri...@diird.vic.gov.au Department of Innovation, Industry and Regional Development Level 31, 121 Exhibition Street, Melbourne, Victoria 3000. On Wed, 23 Sep 2009, nedlud wrote: I second that. On the other hand, after looking at a few of the links the first few times I received those messages, I now delete them unseen. On Wed, Sep 23, 2009 at 3:03 PM, Susie Gardner-Brown susi...@uq.edu.auwrote: Hi there I?d just like to send a big thank you to Russ Weakley for taking the time to collate and send this to WSG Announce each week! I always find really interesting stuff there, and usually bookmark a couple of links from it. So, thanks Russ ? it?s really appreciated! -- Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster http://woodbine-gerrard.com === Author: Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress) *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] legal list numbering
This isn't a problem at all. It's a simple thing to do in HTML. Example: ol liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah ol liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah ol liBlah blah/li liBlah blah/li liBlah blah/li /ol /li /ol /li /ol Thanks, Jason On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 1:33 PM, kwill...@zonnet.nl wrote: For an example how to solve this take a look at http://www.regels-stadskanaal.nl It's an online archieve of the legislation of the city of Stadskanaal in the Netherlands. As you can see i've moved the nummers of the listitems to the content of the documents. Koen Willems Citeren Andrew Harris and...@woowoowoo.com: How do people get around the problem of marking up ordered lists in legal documents, such as policies or terms and conditions? A typical structure might look like: 1 blah blah blah 1.1 blah blah blah 1.2 blah blah blah 1.2.1 blah blah blah 1.2.2 blah blah blah 1.3 blah blah blah 2 blah blah blah 2.1 blah blah blah 2.1.1 blah blah blah* I've seen a variety of convoluted javascript and CSS methods, but they're all hacks for what is essentially a pretty logical structure... nested ordered lists! I have to admit, I haven't even checked whether this is addressed in html 5. * BTW: I've read lots of legal documents and I reckon the text can mostly be replaced with blah blah blah without affecting their meaning. -- Andrew Harris and...@woowoowoo.com http://www.woowoowoo.com ~~~ * ~~~ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] legal list numbering
Anthony - what's there to 'understand'? This is the semantically correct way to mark up this particular set of data. Simple as. By all means you should be able to style up looking pixel perfect the same across any browser under the Sun. Cheers, Jason On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 3:04 PM, Antony Gr. ant.grak...@gmail.com wrote: IE not understand this. You don't agree? 2009/8/26 Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com: Inspect the TOC of this page and see that the markup I used is essentially correct. The difference is that they wrote the numbers down into the page (i.e. 1.1, 4.11, 5., etc.) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ If unsure, use a W3C page as a reference point :-) Cheers, Jason -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] legal list numbering
Inspect the TOC of this page and see that the markup I used is essentially correct. The difference is that they wrote the numbers down into the page (i.e. 1.1, 4.11, 5., etc.) http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/ If unsure, use a W3C page as a reference point :-) Cheers, Jason On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Antony Gr. ant.grak...@gmail.com wrote: This isn't work correctly: 'counter-reset' and other CSS styles for this nested lists not supported by IE. 2009/8/26 Jason Grant ja...@flexewebs.com: This isn't a problem at all. It's a simple thing to do in HTML. Example: ol liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah ol liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah/li liBlah Blah ol liBlah blah/li liBlah blah/li liBlah blah/li /ol /li /ol /li /ol Thanks, Jason On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 1:33 PM, kwill...@zonnet.nl wrote: -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Box model in IE7
CSS coder, JS coder, PHP coder and designer should all be very familiar with accessibility principles. Developing non-accessible systems is like making a family car which can only drive on tarmac surface, but as soon as it hits anything else grinds to a holt. That's just plain old wrong. This year we are having to consider more and more user agents and access devices: BlackBerry, EEEPC type tools, iPhone, soon to come surface, Linux/Windows/Mac, various types of web enables mobiles. Accessibility is therefore becoming more and more relevant with time. On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:38 AM, tee weblis...@gmail.com wrote: On Apr 24, 2009, at 2:21 AM, michael.brocking...@bt.com michael.brocking...@bt.com wrote: Personally, I think there should have been a companion article explaining why designers can't write code. And they love to say there is a good reason why developers shouldn't touch design :-) Let's do a calculation on a cost on how website being built. 60/h (euro, us#, au$ or whatever) for a X year experience CSS coder 100/h for a designer ( X year experience) 120/h for a js programmer ( X year experience) 150/h for a php programmer ( X year experience) Oh my, there is no budget left for accessibility and usability gurus. No wonder these two areas are left out from 99% of the sites out there on the internet because they think designers shouldn't touch code and developers shouldn't touch design. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Box model in IE7
If a developer is able to do something about making interfaces work well in non standards compliant user agent without breaking standards, they should absolutely do so. Most of the time this requires little or no work at all. Font sizing is a simple issue and it is easy to cater for all user agents with simple approaches. Users come first, developers second. Make sure users have best experience under all (relevant) circumstances. On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 11:34 AM, daniel a. thornbury hellodan...@mac.comwrote: On 24/04/2009, at 7:47 PM, Rimantas Liubertas wrote: And there is NOTHING wrong with pixel sizes. On 2009/04/24 12:47 (GMT+0300) Rimantas Liubertas composed: On the contrary, everything is wrong with pixel sizing fonts, because any size in px totally disregards the size the visitor has set in his browser prefs, I wouldn't agree with Felix's statement at all, and tend to think Rimantas is correct - there is NOTHING wrong with px font sizes. They are not absolute and browsers are able to modify the size without any problems. You are merely suggesting the font size. i.e.: increasing the preferred font size in the browser still adjusts pxs - if the browser does not behave this way then it's a browser problem, not the designers. Likewise, font sizes are irrelevant for accessibility. All accessibility software and screen readers should be able to scale the fonts accordingly, if not then it's an issue with the accessibility software. It's easier to keep track of em and percentage sizes for site wide but px is Joe Clarke gave a great presentation on this at @media 2007 titled When Web Accessibility Is Not Your Problem, notes available here: http://joeclark.org/appearances/atmedia2007/#fonts ~ daniel a. thornbury *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] Box model in IE7
We were told in the past by a massive client that for accessibility purposes
font sizes needed to be set to 74% as a minimum as the basic reading size
below which it's a straign on the eyes.
I personally don't mess with browser defaults and don't tend to use resets,
but for minimal purposes only.
On Fri, Apr 24, 2009 at 1:12 AM, Brett Patterson
inspiron.patters...@gmail.com wrote:
I have always been told to use something along the lines of either body {
font-size: 100%; /* a fix for internet explorer */ } because of the way IE
reads/sizes font. Starting out with html at only 62.5% font-sizing would
completely mess up IE and the font in the browser would it not?
--
Brett P.
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 7:56 PM, CK jobs@bushidodeep.com wrote:
Hi,
Would you elaborate on why the CSS rule invalidates the article? As it
appears the authors explanation is sound.
html {
font-size: 62.5%;
}
CK
On Apr 23, 2009, at 11:28 AM, Chris F.A. Johnson wrote:
On Thu, 23 Apr 2009, Christopher Kennon wrote:
S,
See this article from Links for light Reading scrolling down a bit
you'll
find a JS solution that may prove useful:
Why Programmers Suck at CSS Design
http://www.betaversion.org/~stefano/linotype/news/169/http://www.betaversion.org/%7Estefano/linotype/news/169/
That article ceased to be credible as soon as I saw:
My suggestion for you is to do the following: start your CSS
stylesheet with
html {
font-size: 62.5%;
}
On Apr 22, 2009, at 4:18 PM, Stevio wrote:
Is the box model in IE7 still messed up? I thought they sorted it?
It is fixed in standards mode, but I think it uses the broken model
in quirks mode.
I am floating a div to the right with a width of 50%. The div to the
left
has a right margin of 50%. I've put a 1px solid border on both of them.
In
IE7 there is a gap between them but in Firefox they are right against
each
other.
Go figure?
--
Chris F.A. Johnson, webmaster http://woodbine-gerrard.com
===
Author:
Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
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Jason Grant BSc, MSc
CEO, Flexewebs Ltd.
www.flexewebs.com
ja...@flexewebs.com
+44 (0)7748 591 770
Company no.: 5587469
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Re: [WSG] Borders in liquid layouts
I would bet on there not being a proper solution for this unless you want to start hacking around with some sort of JS based calculation solutions, which will only work for users which have JS on. I would go for the design with no borders basically. Often a time design decisions are impacted by limitations imposed by what web technologies are capable of doing. This is one of the reasons why most sites are not liquid layouts, and the ones that are have a very bland design by and large. Hope this helps. On Fri, Apr 17, 2009 at 7:18 PM, Stevio redea...@freeuk.com wrote: I have created a web site design, with a graphical border down the sides of the design (15px wide on each side). To implement this using CSS would be quite simple if the design had a fixed width, but I am looking to implement a liquid layout. Essentially I reckon it comes down to equal height columns in liquid layouts. Any suggestions on how to best accomplish this? Thanks. Stephen *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] SEO and headers order
All these things are 'within reason'. I have seen SEO agencies advise putting the main content immediately after body and then repositioning everything else with CSS into right places. This is likely not to be possible on some designs and Google is smart enough to sift through the initial junk on the page to get through to the main content also. There's another argument that says that your main navigation help Google index other pages on the site, so if you are putting that after the main content you are making deeper indexing of your site a little harder for Google, as it has to do more work to follow the links. Hence nothing is black and white here. Perhaps you should try both solutions for a while and see if it makes a difference. If you can't be bothered, I would go with 'regular source order', whatever that is for your site. Thanks, Jason PS: Also, if you need more SEO advice let me know. On Wed, Apr 15, 2009 at 7:22 AM, Rob Enslin robens...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Caleb, I might be wrong but anecdotal evidence suggests order is not an 'issue' for bots scanning your site. I'm other words by in large so long as your code is structured correctly your h1, h2 etc will be indexed appropriately. The only caveat/exception is non-valid code. Also, long, heavy and bloated code where important tag info is burried way down the page, can impact on indexability - stuff that's simply not best practice. -- rob // Rob Enslin // twitter.com/robenslin On 15 Apr 2009, at 06:21, Caleb Wong carbon.ca...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I have a SEO question regarding how search engines scans a website. Say for example if I have a site where it has a 3 column layout. Column left and column right appears before the middle column area, and within column left, right there are h2, h3 tags; within the middle column there is a h1 tag. The source code goes something like this... column_right h2 /column_right column_left h2 /column_left column_middle h1 /column_middle So would search engines pick up on the h1 header that appears at the bottom of the page, or picks up on the first header (regardless its weight) it sees. Cheers Caleb *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
Re: [WSG] SEO and headers order
I will have to chip in again: - I would stay away from the 'repositioning' approach because of template flexibility issues - Depending on what type of a site you are working on this may or may not be relevant or work at all (see this topic for how to think in terms of types of web sites, rather than web as one generic thing http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/general/web-site-types/ ) - I have seen this approach deployed on smallish tourism / holiday sites, but never on mega commercial sites which earn £10M+ per week, so it's not a black and white matter - It's really down to you to decide what you want to do with regards to this aspect as this is not a make or break matter for your SEO efforts. Thanks, Jason http://flexewebs.com/semantix On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 12:44 AM, ewen.h...@dhs.vic.gov.au wrote: Caleb, You should be careful to present the information so that people who do not use CSS can understand the flow of the document as well (screen readers etc). I am assuming that this is a standard right and left nav with content in the middle so it would be less of an issue in this instance but it is something that can disenfranchise. Regards, *Ewen Hill *, Project Manager, Web Communications Unit Department of Human Services, Level 16, 50 Lonsdale Street Melbourne Victoria 3000 * 9096 0440* _ This email contains confidential information intended only for the person named above and may be subject to legal privilege. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying or use of this information is prohibited. The Department provides no guarantee that this communication is free of virus or that it has not been intercepted or interfered with. If you have received this email in error or have any other concerns regarding its transmission, please notify postmas...@dhs.vic.gov.au _ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com ja...@flexewebs.com +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.flexewebs.com/semantix www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: memberh...@webstandardsgroup.org ***
[WSG] JS patterns
A quick note to the group to say that a great, lightweight, JQuery based, continuously updated, object-oriented, highly reusable set of patterns is being developed by Adam Silver, a great JS developer. http://www.adoromedia.com/projects/ Patterns are constantly being improved and Adam would appreciate feedback from people and comments on how to improve them even more. Needless to say that I am using and re-using these patterns and can highly recommend them. Regards, -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] JS patterns
My take on JQuery is that it is: - Most popular JS library out there - Becoming a de-facto standard for cross-browser JS development - Something that every serious developer I have met so far is supporting and using Whether it is made part of future browsers or not, it is a skill set well worth taking up and a library well worth utilising. Regards, Jason On Sun, Dec 7, 2008 at 1:55 PM, Tatham Oddie [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Tee, There are no JQuery specific extensions to IE8. There are general speed and reliability improvements to the JS engine in the browser, and IDE support for JQuery in Visual Studio, however the support is not specific to IE+JQuery. Thanks, Tatham Oddie call:+61414275989, call:+61280113982, skype:tathamoddie, msn:[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED], tatham.oddie.com.au -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of tee Sent: Monday, 8 December 2008 12:37 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] JS patterns On Dec 7, 2008, at 4:34 AM, Jason Grant wrote: A quick note to the group to say that a great, lightweight, JQuery based, continuously updated, object-oriented, highly reusable set of patterns is being developed by Adam Silver, a great JS developer. http://www.adoromedia.com/projects/ Patterns are constantly being improved and Adam would appreciate feedback from people and comments on how to improve them even more. Needless to say that I am using and re-using these patterns and can highly recommend them. Hi Jason, thanks for the link, and I am a jQuery fan :-) Something not related to your post but jQuery. As many of you likely have known that Microsoft have adapted jQuery framework, and this question has been in my head for a while: does this meant future IE (starts from IE8?) will speed up load time for site that uses jQuery? tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + h6 in place of legend
My boots.com does not redirect to that URL.Try this insted: http://www.boots.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/TopCategoriesDisplay?langId=-1storeId=10052 http://www.boots.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/TopCategoriesDisplay?langId=-1storeId=10052 Cheers, Jason On Sun, Oct 19, 2008 at 7:47 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Jason Grant [EMAIL PROTECTED] Boots.com is one of the most 'formsy' web sites out there. I suggest you sign up for it and try to see what has been done there... Regards. boots.com redirects to bootsus.bri-global.com/ - is this the site you were referring to? Looks OK, but uses questionalble extra div class=clearer/, lacks fieldset/ and/or legend, and no indication of required fields. Also, erors out when attemptingto submit the form for new user The leftformcell and rightformcell definitey provide a lot of flexibility, but is questionably overboard vs. applying label class=leftformcellinput class=rightformcell /. I had not thought about creating two seperate wrappers...trying to get it done with one or less. I am close to having a version 1 to post for review...I may do two different approaches to look for better feedback - Pro vs. Cons for each approach. Thanks. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + h6 in place of legend
You don't need the nested fieldset for styling, but for semantics and general better structure/meaning of your form. It so happens that you can also then style that section nicer if you need to. More bloated than it needs to be? Yes. Is it better to use a list instead of divs? Of course it is. As you get more advanced in this, the whole 'set' will get even more bloated. Enjoy your HTML forms 'discovery'. Cheers, Jason On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 5:50 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Jason Grant [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Friday, October 17, 2008 4:51:46 AM GMT -05:00 US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + h6 in place of legend You should also be aware of the fact that for a commercial project the below code snippet you posted will not be sufficient, as it does not have enought styling/behavioural hooks in it... -- That's my next bone to pick, and why I really liked the label wrapper. I really dislike the idea of wrapping the label input in a div but I will likely have to for the exact point you have made. I need lots of flexibility but want minimal code bloat. Here's a simplified version of where I am heading: ... fieldset class=parent id=address legendspanContact Information/span/legend div class=nameFirst label for=nameFirstName/label input id=nameFirst type=text /div div class=nameLast label for=nameLastName/label input id=nameLast type=text/div fieldset class=child id=dob legendspanDate of Birth/span/legend div class=dobMonth label for=dobMonthMonth/label input id=dobMonth type=text /div div class=dobDay label for=dobDayDay/label input id=dobDay type=text /div div class=dobYear label for=dobYearDay/label input id=dobYear type=text /div /fieldset /fieldset ... Why the span in the fieldset? I may potentially need to style that area as a sliding doors tab, plus it seems easier to achieve consistent cross-browser styles on the span as opposed to the legend. The nested fieldset is to allow for the DOB to me horizontal if/when desired. Still lots to do regarding other form elements...more questions as I progress. I will also post an example. Thanks thus far! /fieldset Seems painfully blaoted to me, but I need a lot of control to match virtually any situation *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + h6 in place of legend
Boots.com is one of the most 'formsy' web sites out there. I suggest you sign up for it and try to see what has been done there. It's not bad and it will give insight into today's commercial needs from clients regarding forms. Hope that helps as a concrete example. Regards. On Fri, Oct 17, 2008 at 9:22 PM, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Oct 17, 2008, at 9:50 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's my next bone to pick, and why I really liked the label wrapper. I really dislike the idea of wrapping the label input in a div but I will likely have to for the exact point you have made. I need lots of flexibility but want minimal code bloat. Here's a simplified version of where I am heading: ... fieldset class=parent id=address legendspanContact Information/span/legend div class=nameFirst label for=nameFirstName/label input id=nameFirst type=text /div div class=nameLast label for=nameLastName/label input id=nameLast type=text /div /fieldset ... Why the span in the fieldset? I may potentially need to style that area as a sliding doors tab, plus it seems easier to achieve consistent cross-browser styles on the span as opposed to the legend. The nested fieldset is to allow for the DOB to me horizontal if/when desired. Still lots to do regarding other form elements...more questions as I progress. I will also post an example. Thanks thus far! I have an obsession with web form styling - I cannot stand ugly web form :-) So here is my two cents: if you want consistent cross-browser web form that looks nice. Add class in the input instead, especially when it involves using checkboxes, radio button, borders for input field, select and multiselect. Though you can utilize input ID, but for a web form, or various forms used throughout entire site that have many checkboxes, radio buttons and select options, using class will be a lot clearer for your style sheet and no need for extra div to wrap up each form element. Fieldset, label and input tags are enough for basic and nice styling, no extra div needed. fieldset legendspanContact Information/span/legend label for= xyz/label input id= type=checkbox class=add-a-class /fieldset That is for the site I have full control and know I will be the only one updating the site. But if I make a template and the targeted users are people who want to build their sites, then definitely bloated divs to prevent customer service nightmare. I will even eliminate legend with a clear conscious. Alas! IE and Opera are not kind to form elements. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + h6 in place of legend
This is the first time for me to see someone proposing use of labelinput //label structure.I agree that ol is not strictly necessary and that a form is not necessarily a list, but one could argue that you are dealing with a list of form input elements. Read more why I do this here: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/prettyaccessibleforms Using a list also gives better control over the look as I never do: float:left; clear: left; since that proves to cause cross browser issues more often than not. Cheers, Jason On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 1:23 PM, Johan Douma [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've always used label arount input fields labeltext: input type=text //label without the for= attribute. I've never had problems with it, and I don't think I've ever seen any recommendation against it. Johan Douma [EMAIL PROTECTED] 2008/10/16 David Dorward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jason Grant wrote: Ok you got both of these quite wrong for following reasons: In the first instance you shouldn't use b or br / at all. In the second instance you should not wrap input into label as the label should quite clearly be used for denoting a label of an input field and not the input field itself. Not so: When [the for attribute is] absent, the label being defined is associated with the element's contents. LABEL First Name INPUT type=text name=firstname /LABEL -- http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/interact/forms.html#h-17.9.1 -- David Dorward http://dorward.me.uk/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] labels as input wrappers + h6 in place of legend
Ok you got both of these quite wrong for following reasons: In the first instance you shouldn't use b or br / at all. In the second instance you should not wrap input into label as the label should quite clearly be used for denoting a label of an input field and not the input field itself. Using a heading instead of a legend is OK, but use legend if the design allows it for even better accessibility. What you ought to do is something like this. fieldset h3Personal details/h3 ol li label for=surnameSurname/label input type=text name=surname id=surname / /li li label for=emailEmail/label input type=text name=email id=email / /li /ol /fieldset Each /li is a container for labelinput pairs. No need for br/. Each element is nicely 'styleable' via CSS. The ol gives a user insight into how many elements exist inside the given fieldset so for non-sighted user they will know to expect a more complex form if there are 15 items in the given list. You can give each li a class attribute to give it a more specific hook for styling or behaviour purposes. Hope this helps. Jason On Thu, Oct 16, 2008 at 12:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am looking for feedback on two questions, based on the simple form snippet below. fieldset legendbPersonal Details/b/legend label for=nameName:/label input id=name type=text name=name size=30 br label for=idID Number:/label input id=id type=text name=id number size=10 /fieldset Question 1: Is it acceptable, or advisable, to use a header tag h6 in place of the legend in order to get cross-browsers consistency when dealing with complex form styling? How much impact might this have on accessibility, if any? Question 2: I don't see many folks using the label as a wrapper to contain the input. Any reason not to do this? It allows for the br / to be removed via display: block; on the label tag as well as allowing users (of most browsers) to click on a much larger label to select the accompanying input. fieldset h6Personal Details/h6 label for=nameName: input id=name type=text name=name size=30 /label label for=idID Number: input id=id type=text name=id number size=10 /label /fieldset *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Jason Grant BSc, MSc CEO, Flexewebs Ltd. www.flexewebs.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] +44 (0)7748 591 770 Company no.: 5587469 www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.linkedin.com/in/flexewebs *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Shopping cart - who does what
Hello everyone, Will try to keep it simple. I have much experience of working on various e-commerce systems and know the following: 1. Serious e-commerce systems are very complex (i.e. Magento) 2. 90% of e-commerce systems are not accessible, let alone standards compliant 3. Even templated UI solutions tend to require much work to 'clean up' - largely to do with complexity of the problem at hand 4. It takes a long time to develop a fully-featured, standards compliant e-commerce solution (usability aside) Magento is one of the best I have come by so far in terms of Open Source, but it's not standards compliant. Quick example why: checkout does not work with JS off and it uses in line JS to work. :-| Dirty, hacky and not necessarily good enough for some clients, although most tend not to care as long as it 'works'. Still today I am searching for an Open Source solution (or a cheap-ish one) that does the job nicely, but no luck so far after many hours invested into finding one. Standards wise the best one so far seems to be: http://www.tradingeye.com/ , but I haven't really thoroughly tried it yet. Whoever quotes $500 for developing a shopping cart is either just selling 'ideas' or does not have a first clue about what an e-commerce system is. Kindest regards, Jason PS: Oh yeah, how can I forget that automatically selling digital/downloadable products through the solution is (in my opinion) a must-have feature which Magento does not have and that functionality poses various other standards-related implementational issues with it. On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 3:12 AM, tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Aug 13, 2008, at 7:00 PM, tee wrote: I'd been learning Magento since beta 1, guess I will add my 2 cents. Magento is very impressive, and you can make your magento store as compliant as it can be with its very flexible, a-bit-daunting template system. But to say magento is standards compliant is totally off-key in my opinion. The first template they came out, was very impressive for an open source, now, with each releases, many files got updated and you see inline styles, excessive use of div classes. I don't think Varien continues promoting Magento as Standards Compliant anymore. Also, forgot to add, accessible wise, it think it gets a minus point. Turn the js off, many things are gone, so far the fatal accessible issue I see is the category nav. In my theme, I try doing fly-out and I haven't been able to get the tabbing works in second level. tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Firefox 3 candidate
It will replace it even if you install into different directory. :-( Then it means you are not going to have your FireBug available to work with. FF3 is very nice and I am excited. Just can't wait for FireBug to become compatible with it as it is so crucial for us of course. Regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com/semantix On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:17 PM, Paul Collins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Does anyone know if it will replace your version of Firefox 2, or will it run side by side?! Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] MA in web development
Hello everyone, Last night a proposal has been hinted at me to put together an MA course in web development for a UK University. That's all I have been told so far. I was wondering what people were feeling such a course ought to contain. I have my views of course, but would not like to influence the feedback at this point. All suggestions are very much appreciated. Regards, Jason Grant www.flexewebs.com/semantix *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Marking up company logo
I am surprised that we are even discussing this topic here. This issue is mentioned in the last sentence of this blog post: http://www.flexewebs.com/semantix/?p=5 Please follow the link provided in there to W3C site which mentions what h1 is there for. Kind regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com -- see also here where h1 appears on the page and how logo is done. On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 11:38 PM, Chris Pearce [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for all the feedback regarding this. I'm actually beginning to think an html image tag would be better suited to mark-up a company logo and reserving the h1 for the main page title, this seems to make more sense to me after giving it more thought. Also most of the sites I build use CMS's and clients will go ahead and use a h1 anyway for the top level heading in the editable area therefore the logical order of headers is broken. At the end of the day semantics means a lot more to me than SEO. On a side note I find I have to insert an image tag (for the logo) for the print version as most clients aren't happy about showing plain text from the h1 as we all know that printing background images is turned off by default. *From:* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *On Behalf Of *Chris Pearce *Sent:* Wednesday, 28 May 2008 5:49 PM *To:* wsg@webstandardsgroup.org *Subject:* [WSG] Marking up company logo Hi, For a few years now I've been marking up a clients company logo as a h1. I just wanted to get an idea of how many people actually do this compared to using a html image tag? I believe a h1 is more semantically correct however I'd be interested in seeing what other people on this list think. Cheers *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
Hi Julian, One more subtle point here (after taking this discussion into the office with guys that work with me) a point was made today that within DOM fieldset is part of the form hence you cannot reference a fieldset through DOM unless it is inside a form, so it is definitely a wrong approach to use it in that way, especially if you want to do fancy JavaScript stuff with it all. Hope this helps. Regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com On 5/21/08, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, there were a number of sites that began using fieldsets and legends outside of forms. You may still find documentation talking about how nice it is to work with. Unfortunately, fieldsets and legends are only for forms and you shouldn't use them otherwise. I've actually been dealing with this recently in the zemanta firefox plugin. This inserts a fieldset with a list of links for adding related content to blog posts. I logged a bug and they'll fix it in a future release. But it just goes to show this is a commonly misused pattern. People were also using fieldsets simply because they contain floats -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
Hello Julian, If you are unsure about what an HTML tag is there for, look up in the W3C specs. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-FIELDSET It is pretty clear to me there that fieldset element exists for the purpose of grouping form elements together, and not for other purposes. It aids accessibility and overall meaning of (larger) forms. Hence I would strongly argue that fieldset should not be used outside a form and should not be used for purposes of styling for we have CSS. Hope this helps. Regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com www.flexewebs.wordpress.com www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.facebook.com/pages/London/Flexewebs/11264349395 On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Julián Landerreche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A workmate come with this idea, which then I have searched on web and haven't found too much information about it, but this: [1] and [2]. The idea: using fieldset and legend for adding structural markup/labes [3]. It seems that using fieldsets _outside_ forms doesn't make the code to invalidate. Also, in HTML 4.01, legend is required, but optional in XHTML. Currently, I like the approach of adding structural markup using a heading (h*n* class=structural) even just a simple strong class=structural, and if necessary, hide them by CSS I borrowed the idea from NetRelations.se and 456bereastreet.com. Example: div id=main-nav strong class=structuralMain navigation/strong !-- or h*n*Main navigation/h*n* -- ul liaSection 1/a/li liaSection 2/a/li liaSection 3/a/li /ul /div So, applying fieldset and legend this could be rewritten like this: fieldset id=main-nav legend class=structuralMain navigation/legend ul liaSection 1/a/li liaSection 2/a/li liaSection 3/a/li /ul /fieldset Another example: a list of actions (that are in fact, simple links, so, it's just another navigation) where it could make even more sense. fieldset id=actions legend class=structuralYou can do the following/legend ul liaCreate/a/li liaDelete/a/li liaEdit/a/li /ul /fieldset Putting aside anything related to CSS styling (legends could be difficult to style, but aren't really difficult to hide using display:none; although using position: absolute; left:-px could be better for accesibility, but that positioning method on legends has inconsistencies across browsers): 1. Could there be accessibility issues using fieldset/legend outside a form? 2. Or could this method enhance the accessibility (in fact, structural labels enhance accessibility)? 3. Is there any other research/resource that can add some light on this? Thanks. Julián. [1] http://www.opendesigns.org/forum/discussion/2047/ [2] http://drupal.org/node/233928 [3] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
Needless to say that your application should progressively enhancehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Enhancementthrough the presentation layers. So, irrespective of what technology (or mix of technologies) you are using, the basic (X)HTML page should make total sense with everything (images, css, javascript and flash) switched off and nicely 'upgrade' as you add each new piece of technology to it. The basics always stay the same, hence fieldset ought to be inside a form as your page ought to work with JavaScript turned off. Regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com On 5/20/08, Svip [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What if your fieldset is intended for an AJAX application? And thus will not require a form (as your data is not sent through the form, but is picked up by javascript)? Indeed, my opinion is that a fieldset should only contain form elements, but not necessarily be inside a form tag. I do disagree with Julián's approach. Also, if I may add, strong should only be used as an inline element (you cannot really compare hN with strong, headlines are block elements, while strong is inline) and only in a case where you have a strong point to make, and not a replacement for making bold text. Regards, Svip 2008/5/20 Jason Grant [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hello Julian, If you are unsure about what an HTML tag is there for, look up in the W3C specs. http://www.w3.org/TR/html401/interact/forms.html#edef-FIELDSET It is pretty clear to me there that fieldset element exists for the purpose of grouping form elements together, and not for other purposes. It aids accessibility and overall meaning of (larger) forms. Hence I would strongly argue that fieldset should not be used outside a form and should not be used for purposes of styling for we have CSS. Hope this helps. Regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com www.flexewebs.wordpress.com www.twitter.com/flexewebs www.facebook.com/pages/London/Flexewebs/11264349395 On Tue, May 20, 2008 at 8:44 PM, Julián Landerreche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A workmate come with this idea, which then I have searched on web and haven't found too much information about it, but this: [1] and [2]. The idea: using fieldset and legend for adding structural markup/labes [3]. It seems that using fieldsets _outside_ forms doesn't make the code to invalidate. Also, in HTML 4.01, legend is required, but optional in XHTML. Currently, I like the approach of adding structural markup using a heading (hn class=structural) even just a simple strong class=structural, and if necessary, hide them by CSS I borrowed the idea from NetRelations.se and 456bereastreet.com. Example: div id=main-nav strong class=structuralMain navigation/strong !-- or hnMain navigation/hn -- ul liaSection 1/a/li liaSection 2/a/li liaSection 3/a/li /ul /div So, applying fieldset and legend this could be rewritten like this: fieldset id=main-nav legend class=structuralMain navigation/legend ul liaSection 1/a/li liaSection 2/a/li liaSection 3/a/li /ul /fieldset Another example: a list of actions (that are in fact, simple links, so, it's just another navigation) where it could make even more sense. fieldset id=actions legend class=structuralYou can do the following/legend ul liaCreate/a/li liaDelete/a/li liaEdit/a/li /ul /fieldset Putting aside anything related to CSS styling (legends could be difficult to style, but aren't really difficult to hide using display:none; although using position: absolute; left:-px could be better for accesibility, but that positioning method on legends has inconsistencies across browsers): 1. Could there be accessibility issues using fieldset/legend outside a form? 2. Or could this method enhance the accessibility (in fact, structural labels enhance accessibility)? 3. Is there any other research/resource that can add some light on this? Thanks. Julián. [1] http://www.opendesigns.org/forum/discussion/2047/ [2] http://drupal.org/node/233928 [3] http://www.usability.com.au/resources/source-order.cfm *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL
Re: [WSG] Fwd: using fieldsets and legends (outside a form) for adding structural markup
Hi Julian, strong is for emphasis. I am on your side on that one. divs are for separating components/sections of a page and can be semantically very strong, especially when given a meaningful class or id name (e.g. header, footer, contacts, product, etc.) fieldset however is quite specifically defined in W3C documentation as being used for grouping 'form elements', hence it is fairly conclusive in my mind that using fieldset elsewhere is an abuse of the standard, even though it passes validation. As responsible and sensible developers I think we ought to leverage what has already been (pretty well) defined in the official documentation from W3C and utilise the tags we have available to us as best we can. We can work further on trying to come up with better mechanisms for handling some other matters for which we feel current HTML is insufficient. I am hoping that XHTML2.0/HTML5 will help with that, although at the moment it is not looking too promising. That's it for now from me. Your English is very good and your points are well made. Regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com On 5/20/08, Julián Landerreche [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: @Jason and @Svip quoted: Svip wrote: I do disagree with Julián's approach. Also, if I may add, strong should only be used as an inline element (you cannot really compare hN with strong, headlines are block elements, while strong is inline) and only in a case where you have a strong point to make, and not a replacement for making bold text. I'm *not* using it as a replacing for making bold text. I use strong to make the text (the content of the structural markup) strong (emphasized). Have you take a look at NetRelations.se [1] source (or better, disable the CSS to see the structural markup in action). In fact, in my example, this strong element is child of a block element (div), so it's not only semantic (see below paragraph) but also valid [2] (inline element validate as child of a block element and sibling of another one). Back to the *semantics* of this: divstrongmain navigation/strong //.../div I repeat: that's semantic, for me: this text is strong, it's important, and no, it's not a paragraph or a heading (we could disagree). Yes, it would not be the most perfect semantic out there, but perfect semantics aren't achievable by current XHTML elements . Not everything out there fits perfect on being a paragraph, or a heading, or an unordered list or whatever (lets not talk about the semantics of div and span). I agree, web pages are documents, web pages should look as documents and should make sense with/without CSS enabled (dont' forget that CSS disabled is, in fact, browser default CSS, and not a totally reseted CSS). So, if reading a site with CSS disabled (default browser CSS), the semantics are given to us (sighted people) by visual formatting of elements (headings are bold, have bigger size, blockquotes are indented, etc), and structural mark-up adds semantic help for people with are visual impaired (but not blind), cognitive disabilities, or even, people using a device with no support for CSS. So, if reading a site with a screen reader, semantics are given by speech (pronunciation and/or help speech), and in consequence, a text marked by strong will be read with emphasis. Then, the structural markup (the strong) on my example has its semantics, it's important to be read loud. Again, no, it's not a heading (but could be), nor a paragraph (does every chunck of text out there on the web deserve to be a paragraph, if it isn't a heading nor a list)? Jason wrote: Needless to say that your application should progressively enhancehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Enhancementthrough the presentation layers. the basic (X)HTML page should make total sense with everything (images, css, javascript and flash) switched off and nicely 'upgrade' as you add each new piece of technology to it. Adding structural markup is, in fact, progressive enhancement, as the research [3] I linked on the first post. The question here is: *how to markup the structural markup? which is the best way?* - using headings, as, for example, in 456bereastreet [4] ? - using strong, as, for example, NetRelations.se [1] ? - using the fieldset+legend approach as suggested in this thread? About the last one. Yes, the W3C tells about using fieldset and legend for adding structure to forms. So, case closed? It doesn't say anywhere (aparently) not to use them outside form and this, combined with the fact that both tags validates being outside, *this make it possible to rethink its semantics*. Of course, a research on accessibility/usability regarding using fieldsets and legends for structural markup should be done before claiming it hurts the user experience. Do you have facts about this affecting visitors negatively? Progressive enhancement is not just for sighted people. Accessibility can and should be enhanced if possible.
Re: [WSG] Input tag - closing tag optional?
Hi Dusan, Here are some of the unofficial guidelines I work with: div / will not work with IE in certain circumstances. It might give you some errors which you might find mind-bogglingly difficult to debug (i.e. very weird behaviour). div/div will behave much better, but (unless you have an ID or a class on it) I suggest you do not use empty divs at all. I certainly don't use them. What's the real need for it if you think about it really? As far as input / is concerned, it is a sort of a special tag in so far that all its attributes are defined within the tag (i.e. value, type, name, id, class, size, maxlength, etc.), so there is no need for any content between the opening and closing tags, hence in XHTML we use input type= value= name= /. This is valid XML and it conforms to the standards. Hope this helps. Regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com On 11/25/07, Dusan Smolnikar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm afraid browser don't agree with this, though. I'm not sure about input but I'm positive that div/div is not the same as div / as far as browser rendering goes. On Nov21, 2007, at 7:28 AM, Kepler Gelotte wrote: Actually as far as XML (and consequently XHTML) is concerned: input type=text name=a value=a/input Is the same as: input type=text name=a value=a / *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Using XLST to define microformats
Hi Paul, Good question. I am working currently on tesco.com and this is one of the ongoing debates we have, inside W3C as well, as XSLT is used all over the place and we are trying to achieve maximum accessibility and so on. I am not aware that something 'standardised' exists on this matter as yet, and would be surprised if it did yet, as the current state of play on this matter seems to be very non-standardised. Only the other day I wanted to do an events listing module and fried my brain in the various (mostly kind of useless) microformats and feed formats for events information (I came to conclusion that using something of my own is probably the best at this point, but obviously stops short of advantages of using microformats and standards, etc.). So if you come across something at least semi-standardised on this matter, please do message us if you are able to do so. It would be very much appreciated. Kind regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com On 8/27/07, Paul Minty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, my first post, so: I'm Paul Minty, I do the IA, project management, some front-end development and even a little copywriting for a small web design and development studio in Melbourne. Does anyone know of an effort to define micro-formats using an XML name space and an XLST? I think that approach would be a great way to achieve some semantic mark-up using the existing XHTML namespace. It's how I prefer to process large amounts of data when we produce a larger web-site and I think it is a technique that could be applied in a more general way. thanks Paul *Paul Minty **Director* *mint**leaf studio** * We design create stylish websites Post: Box 6 108 Flinders Street Melbourne VIC 3000 Level 2 108 Flinders Street Melbourne T. 03 9662 9344 F. 03 9662 9255 M. 0418 307 475 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.mintleafstudio.com.au *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Standards friendly 'page tagging' web stats
Try this: http://www.google.com/analytics/ Hope its good. Regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com On 8/27/07, Paul Hempsall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey all, I'm investigating improving our current method of reporting our web traffic - we currently use server logs only (with an annual community survey for good measure). I'm looking for a Javascript page-tagging solution, that is unobtrusive (keeping in line with our current progressive enhancement paradigm), standards compliant, reliable/error free (ie. Supported across multiple browsers). We've spent a considerable amount of time building a standards compliant, accessible website that degrades nicely on older browsers and less tech savvy clients, so I'm not keen on implementing a solution that's going to brain all of our hard work. Can anyone make any suggests... off-list if this isn't the right forum for this thread. Best Regards, Paul Hempsall Web Developer Lake Macquarie City Council Phone: (02) 4921-0713 Fax: (02) 4921-0566 Web: http://www.lakemac.com.au This information is intended for the addressee only. The use, copying or distribution of this message or any information it contains, by anyone other than the addressee is prohibited by the sender. Any views expressed in this communication are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Council. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Popup 'box' on hover
Or even this: http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/lightbox Regards, Jason www.flexewebs.com On 8/23/07, Spirit Q.9 Gaming [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/gallery_click Can you use this? On 8/23/07, Nick Roper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, A client would like functionality similar to that used on istockphoto.com - i.e. that a 'popup' window is displayed with a larger image and some text when the user hovers over a thumbnail image. e.g. Can I do this with CSS in a standards-compliant and works cross-browser way? Any pointers or references to example code gratefully received. Thanks, Nick -- Nick Roper partner logical elements *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
