Re: Fwd: [libreoffice-accessibility] Shortcuts on a document opened in Writer.
On 2024-05-15 08:17, Vivien Palcic wrote: I just tried Tab and Shift-Tab to no avail. On the contrary, I just got cells being added (which is the same as would happen in Microsoft Word). In my tests with NVDA running on Windows, a new row is only inserted when pressing Tab when the keyboard focus is in the last cell of the table, while otherwise navigation to the previous/next cell happens as expected. However, NVDA does not announce the newly focused table cell when navigating this way (while it does when navigating using the arrow keys, for example). The Orca screen reader on Linux announces this just fine when doing the same there. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: Fwd: [libreoffice-accessibility] Shortcuts on a document opened in Writer.
On 2024-05-13 13:00, Jason J.G. White wrote: From memory, Tab and Shift-Tab move cell by cell. Someone more familiar with NVDA and LibreOffice might be able to explain what's happening with the NVDA table navigation commands. NVDA's own table navigation commands currently don't work with LibreOffice tables. I had a first look at that quite a while ago, and as far as I remember, implementing support for that would need work on both, NVDA and LibreOffice side. (I remember running into some issue in Writer core code as well back then, but didn't look further into it then.) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Shortcuts on a document opened in Writer.
On 2024-05-09 21:30, Jason J.G. White wrote: On 9/5/24 15:17, Gabriele Battaglia wrote: Hi. With NVDA, How can I use the key shortcuts to move along a writer document? Commands like H to jump over headers? I don't know whether this is supported - it isn't in Linux, which is the environment with which I'm familiar, due to LibreOffice limitations. However, I just use the Navigator in LibreOffice, and I don't miss the screen reader navigation commands. Having the feature as part of the application is better, in my opinion. NVDA's browse mode indeed currently doesn't work with LibreOffice, and would need work in both, LibreOffice and NVDA to make it a reality. Related tickets: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=137955 https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/8148 https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/5453 As Jason writes, LibreOffice's own navigator can be used as an alternative for now. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] New user
Hello and welcome! On 2024-05-04 00:46, Keith Reedy wrote: I am a new user of writer the latest version. I am looking for anything that mite get me up to speed. I used writer a number of years ago but that has been a while. I am using a mac. Any thoughts! This wiki page has some further links for accessibility-related topics: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Accessibility -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Write documents read only.
Hi, On 2024-04-11 10:25, Gabriele Battaglia wrote: Is is normal that I can't read a document which is in read only mode? Do you mean that navigation using the text cursor/caret isn't possible? If so, please see this reply from an earlier question asked here which describes how to enable it: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/msg01076.html Otherwise, can you please describe in more detail what you're trying to do and what is the expected and actual behaviour you're seeing? Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] issue for missing alt text copy and paste
On 2024-04-11 08:42, Roberto Scano wrote: Sorry i don't explain well. If I copy and paste image from a browser that has alt text, during copy it miss alt text. Thanks for the explanation. I've tested that. For that to work, the corresponding data needs to be present in the clipboard after copying from the browser. In a quick test, it works for me on Linux like this: 1) go to https://www.libreoffice.org/ in Firefox 2) copy the LibreOffice logo 3) open Writer 4) press Ctrl+Shift+V to open the "Paste Special" dialog 5) select "Hypertext Markup Language (HTML)" for the source format and press OK to paste After that the alt text "logo" is set for the image in LibreOffice, which is the alt text set in HTML on the website, as can be seen with the wl-paste tool after copying in Firefox: $ wl-paste -t text/html style="width:230px; height:auto;" src="https://www.libreoffice.org/themes/libreofficenew/img/logo.png; alt="logo"> It does not work when just using Ctrl+V to paste instead of using "Paste Special", likely because some image format is used as the source and that doesn't contain the information on the alt text specified in HTML. My test was with Firefox 115.9.1esr and a current development version of LibreOffice using the qt6 VCL plugin on Linux (Debian testing). Version: 24.8.0.0.alpha0+ (X86_64) / LibreOffice Community Build ID: 7d1dc5707edb992f62d0a4b5bf1e8395f71f6e7b CPU threads: 12; OS: Linux 6.6; UI render: default; VCL: qt6 (cairo+wayland) Locale: en-GB (en_GB.UTF-8); UI: en-US Calc: threaded -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] issue for missing alt text copy and paste
On 2024-04-10 11:22, Roberto Scano wrote: Another issue for images. When copy / paste and image, system shall copy also the accessibility attribute "alt". I just tested the following: 1) start Writer 2) insert an image (via menu: Insert -> Image) 3) press F4 to open dialog to edit details 4) in the "Options" tab, enter "Some alternative" for "Text Alternative" 5) confirm with OK 6) select image 7) Ctrl+C to copy 8) open new Writer document 9) Ctrl+V to paste 10) check image properties of the pasted image Result: In the "Options" tab, "Some alternative" is set for "Text Alternative", just like in the original image. Does this not happen for you in the latest LibreOffice version? Or can you please explain in more detail what you mean that's missing? Version I used: Version: 24.2.0.3 (X86_64) / LibreOffice Community Build ID: 420(Build:3) CPU threads: 12; OS: Linux 6.6; UI render: default; VCL: kf5 (cairo+wayland) Locale: en-GB (en_GB.UTF-8); UI: en-GB Debian package version: 4:24.2.0-1 Calc: threaded -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Notes on LibreOffice 24.2 under Linux with Orca, GNOME 45.7
On 2024-02-24 01:06, Jason J.G. White wrote: On 23/2/24 11:25, Jason J.G. White wrote: Yes, I'll submit a bug report. There's no screen reader output or any other indication after issuing Ctrl-Shift-Pgdn. I've created https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159863 Thanks! For the lack of proper announcement of the buttons in the navigator, I've now created the following bug report and am working on a fix: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=159910 (See there for further updates) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Notes on LibreOffice 24.2 under Linux with Orca, GNOME 45.7
On 2024-02-21 18:58, Jason J.G. White wrote: I noticed a few issues that may be Orca or LibreOffice-related - I don't know which is responsible. Orca is undergoing extensive development at the moment, which I'm testing by running the latest code from the main branch. By the way, do you know whether the issues you report are regressions, i.e. whether they were working correctly earlier? And if so: Do you know with what versions of LibreOffice and/or Orca? This info could be quite useful for any further analysis. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Notes on LibreOffice 24.2 under Linux with Orca, GNOME 45.7
On 2024-02-21 18:58, Jason J.G. White wrote: I noticed a few issues that may be Orca or LibreOffice-related - I don't know which is responsible. Orca is undergoing extensive development at the moment, which I'm testing by running the latest code from the main branch. Thank you for reporting these. 1. In LibreOffice Writer, if I issue the F5 command to start the Navigator, focus moves there, but I can't bring focus to the tree of objects to be navigated, either with Tab/Shift-Tab or with cursor keys. In my tests (current LibreOffice development version and either current Orca development version or the version from Debian testing, which is 45.2-1), it behaves like this: 1) When the Navigator is undocked, i.e. in a separate window, F5 brings focus to it and the focus announcement works as expected. 2) When its docked (e.g. to the left side of the Writer window), F5 toggles the navigator on/off, but doesn't bring focus to it. In that case, F6 can be used until you end up at the navigator, then move around there using the tab and arrow keys. At least on the tree, focus announcement works. (With orca main, there's an extra "Navigator" announcement before the actual tree element that I don't get with the version from Debian testing, but it generally works with both.) There are unlabelled toggle buttons, but no tree object. I can reproduce this for many of the UI elements above the tree view in the navigator with the gtk3 variant of LibreOffice (which uses native Gtk widgets), but not when non-native VCL widgets are used, e.g. when using the qt6 variant. In the latter case, the quick help/tooltip text is used for the accessible name as well (code pointer: VCLXAccessibleToolBoxItem::getAccessibleName and VCLXAccessibleToolBoxItem::GetText). Unfortunately, for the case that the navigator is undocked, F6 initially ends up on UI elements without an accessible name, making it harder to realize that you're in the navigator. In my case, I get to the navigator when pressing F6 while the focus is in Writer's formatting toolbar. Once there, Ctrl+Shift+F10 can be used to undock, and get the probably more helpful variant 1) of the undocked navigator mentioned above. Help page mentioning this: https://help.libreoffice.org/24.2/en-US/text/swriter/guide/resize_navigator.html?=SHARED=UNIX I plan to look into this a bit further as I find time (in particular the missing accessible names), but does this help as a workaround for now at least? On 2024-02-21 19:19, Jason J.G. White wrote: 2. Also in Writer, Shift-Pgdn is supposed to move into the footnote area, but doesn't achieve anything. With apologies, that should be Ctrl-Shift-Pgdn, which is listed in the documentation but isn't working for me. I confirm this is mentioned in the help [1], but doesn't do what is described there. For me, Ctrl+Shift+PageDown zooms out of the document (and Ctrl+Shift+PageUp zooms in). However, when I manually assign this shortcut via "Tools" -> "Customize" -> "Keyboard", this works to jump to the footnotes. (I assigned Shift+ Ctrl + PageDown to the "Navigate" -> "Edit Footnote/Endnote" function.) Could you possibly create a bug report in Bugzilla so this can be tracked? (Somebody more knowledgeable will have to decide whether the current behavior is correct and it's a documentation/help bug or whether the help is correct and the behavior is wrong.) [1] For reference, the help page mentioning this: https://help.libreoffice.org/24.2/en-US/text/swriter/guide/footnote_usage.html?DbPAR=WRITER -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Saving to any particular location and grammar checker addon
On 2023-12-18 07:52, Michael Weghorn wrote: There are 4 radio buttons: 1) Restore from backup 2) Configure 3) Extensions 4) Reset to Factory Settings PS: To navigate between the radio buttons, use the up/down arrow key when one of the radio buttons has focus. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Saving to any particular location and grammar checker addon
On 2023-12-17 18:52, FARHAN ISHRAK Fahim wrote: Thank you. If I open libre office in safe mode, it shows four radio boxes. If I select any of them and press continue, it takes me to the home page or window of libre office. The radio boxes are Restore from backup radio button checked f 1 of 4 level 1 Restore user configuration to the last known working state check box not checked u Restore state of installed user extensions to the last known working state check box not checked s Advanced check box not checked v There are 4 radio buttons: 1) Restore from backup 2) Configure 3) Extensions 4) Reset to Factory Settings The "Reset settings and user interface modifications" checkbox and the "Reset entire user profile" checkbox both become available once you activate the 4th radio button, "Reset to Factory Settings". The other items you mention are not top-level radio boxes, e.g. the "Restore user configuration to the last known working state check box" you mention is a check box underneath the "Restore from backup" radio button. As an alternative to using the safe mode dialog, you can also remove the user profile manually by renaming/deleting %APPDATA%\LibreOffice using the file manager while LibreOffice is not running. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Saving to any particular location and grammar checker addon
On 2023-12-16 19:04, FARHAN ISHRAK Fahim wrote: Thank you. How can I reset libre office and update it? You can reset settings (or the complete profile) by starting LibreOffice in Safe Mode, then selecting the "Reset to factory settings" radio button. Then, enable the "Reset settings and user interface modifications checkbox" and press the "Apply Changes and Restart" button. For the system file dialog setting, that should be enough. If it isn't, you can repeat the above steps, but check the "Reset entire user profile" checkbox in addition. In order to update, download the latest version from https://www.libreoffice.org/download/download-libreoffice/ and run the installer. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Saving to any particular location and grammar checker addon
On 2023-12-15 18:23, FARHAN ISHRAK Fahim wrote: I am using LibreOffice 7.5.4.2. I can save to other location in other applications such as notepad. However, I am unable to do it in libre office. I can save to other location, if I open in safe mode. This suggests that the problem is likely related to your user profile. If loosing all your custom settings is not a problem for you, you could reset your user profile. If you would generally like to keep previously made settings, I'd suggest to check whether the use of system dialogs is enabled. (If it is enabled, which is the default, the file dialog should behave just like with Notepad or other applications.) The option can be checked/changed in "Tools" -> "Options" -> "Advanced" -> "Open Expert Configuration". There, find the org.OpenOffice.Common.Misc.UseSystemFileDialog setting and make sure it is set to true. (Unfortunately, improvements to the accessibility of the expert options dialog itself will only be included in the upcoming LibreOffice version 24.2, see https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99609 ). -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Saving to any particular location and grammar checker addon
On 2023-12-14 18:59, FARHAN ISHRAK Fahim wrote: No, it is not happening on windows. I can write the name of the file. However, I cannot change the location or directory. It worked just fine in a quick test of mine with LibreOffice 7.6 and NVDA 2023.3. When using "File" -> "Save As" (or the Ctrl+Shift+S keyboard shortcut), the Windows file dialog shows up. Initial focus is on the edit field where you can enter a file name, but using the Tab key, you can get to the place were you can select another directory. As Jason mentioned, this is the Windows system file dialog, the same that gets used by other applications as well. Does it work for you for other applications, like Notepad? If it works for other applications, but not LibreOffice: Can you retry after starting LibreOffice in safe mode? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Writer: Problem with Voiceover auf macOS Ventura
Hello Frank, On 2023-10-24 10:56, Michael Weghorn wrote: How exactly VoiceOver announces things is not fully under LibreOffice's control, but from what you write, this sounds like this might actually be related to the role (or specific other properties) that LibreOffice sets on the accessibility layer on macOS. I'll take a closer look once I have access to a macOS development setup. I have had the chance to analyze this on macOS. The announcement of the "collapsed" status/attribute (you wrote "reduced", but for me, VoiceOver said "collapsed" in an English-speaking macOS setup) was caused by a state that was unhelpfully reported by LibreOffice. That's fixed by this change (i.e. will no longer be the case in the next LibreOffice version 24.2): https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/158733 The fact that "edit text" an the cursor position is reported when switching between paragraphs is probably because LibreOffice is representing each paragraph as a separate object (text area) on the accessibility layer, while Pages and Word on macOS are reporting a single text area object for the whole page from what I can see. That's nothing that's easy to change and there's already this bug report to keep track of it: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=67918 Best regards, Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] LibreOffice Writer's read-only mode and screen readers
On 2023-10-27 14:55, Jason J.G. White wrote: Using LibreOffice Writer with Orca under Linux, I recently found that I couldn't navigate a read-only document with the usual cursor movement keys. Thus, I couldn't read it without using Ctrl-Shift-M to exit read-only mode. The scenario was straightforward: I opened an e-mail attachment, and the file was treated as read-only. Is there a way to keep the read-only status while allowing normal cursor movement in the editor? There's an option to enable that: Tools -> Options -> LibreOffice -> Accessibility -> enable "Use text selection cursor in read-only text documents" (You might have to restart LibreOffice for that to take effect.) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
On 2023-10-24 19:36, Dave Grossoehme wrote: How does the spell checker work with Narrator? In a quick test of mine, Narrator did not announce anything in LibreOffice, except for the title of windows. I don't know much about Narrator, but it might be that it only supports UIA (User Interface Automation) and not IAccessible2, the Windows accessibility API that LibreOffice implements. Regards, Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Writer: Problem with Voiceover auf macOS Ventura
Hello Frank, thanks for the additional information you've provided. How exactly VoiceOver announces things is not fully under LibreOffice's control, but from what you write, this sounds like this might actually be related to the role (or specific other properties) that LibreOffice sets on the accessibility layer on macOS. I'll take a closer look once I have access to a macOS development setup. Best regards, Michael PS: I've added the accessibility mailing list back to the recipients. On 2023-10-24 10:02, Frank Becker wrote: Hello Michael, Libreoffice does indeed behave differently from Word and Pages. Libreoffice probably presents a paragraph as a kind of group that I have to enter first. If I end a line with an end of line, then only the line is read out normally. Only when I start a new paragraph is the announcement "reduced" read out. If the cursor is not at the beginning of the line, then the position of the cursor is indicated (cursor in word between the characters O and R). All in all, the behaviour of Libreoffice is annoying. This is because Word files are often sent among blind and visually impaired people, for example with invitations to an event. And often the word processor is mistaken for a typewriter where you press the Enter key at the end of the line. I would find it better if Libreoffice did not regard paragraphs as a group and thus simply read out each line. Best regards Frank -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Writer: Problem with Voiceover auf macOS Ventura
Hi Frank, On 2023-10-23 10:59, Frank Becker wrote: When I go through a text in Writer, on each line Voiceover says: Reduced, edit text, insertion point at the beginning of the text. This is extremely annoying. How can I turn this off? I don't have this problem in Microsoft Word or Pages. Without macOS at hand to test/analyze this, it's hard to give a good answer. Does it behave like that also when you have a paragraph that spans over multiple lines of text and you just move from the first line of that paragraph to the next line? Or is that just the case when you switch between different paragraphs? It's unclear to me what the "reduced" in the VoiceOver announcement is for, but "edit text" is likely the role of the paragraph object and "insertion point at the beginning of the text" apparently explains that the cursor is at the beginning of the paragraph or line. What happens if you don't have the cursor/caret at the beginning of the line, but e.g. move it one character to the right first before you move it upwards/downwards? From a quick glance, there's no "paragraph" role in the NSAccessibility API that is used on macOS, so we are currently using the "text area" (NSAccessibilityTextAreaRole) role for paragraphs on macOS [1], which might be related to the way that VoiceOver announces this. The Core API Accessibility Mappings 1.2 specification suggests to map (ARIA) paragraph to AXGroup/NSAccessibilityGroupRole [2]. That might be something worth trying on the development side, depending also on what other applications like Word or Pages do. I'll keep that in mind as something to look into again once I have access to macOS. Regards, Michael [1] "https://git.libreoffice.org/core/+/926826e40955175a8c115472e0d2f6c7f2f1a453/vcl/osx/a11yrolehelper.mm#88 [2] https://www.w3.org/TR/core-aam-1.2/#role-map-paragraph -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
On 2023-10-23 08:51, Michael Weghorn wrote: If you rely on the feature of announcing formatting information, I'd recommend to update NDVA to 2024.1 next year before updating to LibreOffice 2024.2. (Announcement for text formatting will not work with NVDA 2023.x and LibreOffice 2024.2 and above). For clarification: NVDA 2024.1 still supports the legacy custom attributes reported by LibreOffice versions 7.6 and below as well. Therefore, the announcement of text formatting also works when using NVDA 2024.1 and above with LibreOffice versions 7.6 and older to the extent that it does with NVDA 2023.2. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
Hi, On 2023-10-12 14:02, Michael Weghorn wrote: I think the best way forward is to switch to adhere to the IAccessible2 specification and report the "invalid:spelling" attribute for spelling errors. That also needs a modification in NVDA to longer expect the custom attributes. Once that's implemented, we'll see whether that already makes the announcement of misspelled words work as expected or more is needed. I'm currently working on that, see the following bug report I created for more details: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157696 That's done now and announcement of spelling errors when NVDA announces a line in Writer works with the LibreOffice changes from the above-mentioned Bugzilla ticket and the corresponding NVDA change ( https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/15649 ) in place, i.e. it will work with the upcoming versions LibreOffice 24.2 and NVDA 2024.1. The fact that LibreOffice was switched from custom attributes to attributes according to the IAccessible2 specification also implies that assistive technology that was previously only supporting the custom attributes has to be adapted to accept the IAccessible2 text attributes now. For NVDA, this has been implemented in the pull request mentioned above. If you rely on the feature of announcing formatting information, I'd recommend to update NDVA to 2024.1 next year before updating to LibreOffice 2024.2. (Announcement for text formatting will not work with NVDA 2023.x and LibreOffice 2024.2 and above). In a quick test with JAWS, it didn't announce any text attributes when pressing Keypad_Insert+F, neither with nor without the recent LibreOffice changes in place, so it seems like that's not implemented there at all. (I can't take any closer look because that's a closed source product.) If anybody wants to test the current development versions, I'm happy about feedback. If anybody is aware of other assistive technology that should be taken into account, I'm thankful if you either notify the developers yourself or let me know so I can take care of this. Regards, Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
On 2023-10-12 20:27, Jason White wrote: I just confirmed that spelling errors are being reported by Orca under Linux as expected. Thanks! That matches what I see with Orca and the gtk3 VCL plugin (interface variant) on Linux. (The Qt-based VCL plugins don't expose that information yet. I might look into that while working on the Windows implementation, since they'll be using the same IAccessible2 text attribute implementation in LibreOffice then.) On an unrelated issue, the accessibility of comments in LibreOffice Writer was recently raised on the Orca mailing list. Change tracking (reporting of insertions and deletions) is an associated feature that has not, to my knowledge, been made accessible to screen reader users in LibreOffice. Anyone needing to make effective use of comments and change tracking using a screen reader would likely need to turn to a proprietary office application instead, for which the necessary API support has been in place for some time. Thanks for mentioning that. In a quick test with Writer and Accerciser to inspect the accessibility tree, I see "text-tracked-change:deletion"/"text-tracked-change:insertion" text attributes being reported for the portions of text that have been removed/added. For comments, there's a comment object as a child of the paragraph object and that exposes the text of the comment. But it's likely that more is missing to properly expose that on the LibreOffice side and/or process that information on Orca side. (And at a quick glance, I don't see any corresponding text attributes in the IAccessible2 spec that could be used on Windows.) Without an existing specification on how these should be exposed, this will likely need some thorough considerations (and discussion with everyone involved) on what's the best approach for this. There are already some existing bug reports related to change tracking and comments (also about lack of being able to interact with them using the keyboard): https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=96487 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92389 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90725 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=107637 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101002 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=99261 https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102054 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
Hi, On 2023-10-07 23:25, Michael Weghorn wrote: That sounds plausible. As mentioned in my previous email, I'm planning to take a closer look at this. Since it works with other applications (like Word or Thunderbird) and NVDA is free and open source, too, I'm optimistic that it'll be possible to identify what's missing on either LibreOffice or NVDA side. (According to Jason, this already works as expected with Orca on Linux.) Update on the non-announcement of spelling errors with NVDA: LibreOffice on Windows currently does not expose spelling errors via text attributes, but NVDA uses the red underline for misspelled words to detect misspelled words. LO also doesn't specify the character attributes it currently reports according to the IAccessible2 text attribute specification [1], but uses its own attribute names and values, which NVDA evaluates in its LibreOffice-specific app module [2]. I think the best way forward is to switch to adhere to the IAccessible2 specification and report the "invalid:spelling" attribute for spelling errors. That also needs a modification in NVDA to longer expect the custom attributes. Once that's implemented, we'll see whether that already makes the announcement of misspelled words work as expected or more is needed. I'm currently working on that, see the following bug report I created for more details: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157696 Regards, Michael [1] https://wiki.linuxfoundation.org/accessibility/iaccessible2/textattributes [2] https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/f1c73d1d25e08c53664eb299fadc81db22c61b13/source/appModules/soffice.py#L35 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
Hi Jean-Phillipe and Joanmarie, On 2023-10-08 00:07, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote: Yes, COlomban is working for this. I gave him my nputs, he now tries to give a better technical base and reproduction scenarios. (...) Great, knowing the exact steps to reproduce will be very helpful. Or would the expectation rather be that the dialog content is announced by the screen reader automatically when the dialog gets shown? I think such behavior would be acceptable, but when the user needs to repeat the info, it is always more simple if he can see it via tab or keys I think. Screen readers dont't have always a feature to repeat the last message and the last message may be interrupted by another (a notification, a movement on the keyboard without consequence, etc) So far, I was thinking more about the latter. This would also match the current behavior of other info/warning dialogs, like the one that gets shown when closing the document with unsaved changes. Right, same problem, in particular, for example, when the filename is not friendly for a speech synth, requiring repeating. Thanks for the explanation. I can see how Thunderbird does it. Since you say announcing the content by default when it gets shown is acceptable, I tend to prioritize my efforts on that for now. The changes to make that work for NVDA mentioned in my previous email are merged now and will be included in LibreOffice 24.2: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=157633 Orca currently announces only a few of the labels in the dialog, the actually relevant information isn't announced because Orca restricts what it announces. I've submitted a merge request to Orca with a potential approach that make that scenario work: https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/orca/-/merge_requests/174 @Joanmarie: If you could take a look at that at some point and provide feedback on whether that looks like a workable approach or there's a better solution, that would be much appreciated. Best regards, Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
Hi Jean-Philippe,
On 2023-10-07 06:19, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote:
Nice to start chatting with you, I heard of you at Libocon via COlomban
you met there and worling with my organization. I am glad if I can help
you working on LO accessibility given the high needed job. For your
info, as a "power user"/tester, I mainly use Linux and I use Libreoffice
latest stable (in Sid on Debian). Hypa uses an older one due to bugs
that COlomban will show you, but the bug tracker mentions most of them,
reported by me and my former colleague.
great to hear from you and thanks a lot for the work so far, your input
and offer to help further. I'm looking forward to continue working together!
I'd definitely be interested in hearing what regressions are currently
preventing Hypra from updating to a current LibreOffice version.
(There are currently more than 200 accessibility-related tickets in
Bugzilla; knowing which are the ones that Hypra considers blockers would
be helpful.)
Actually I think something needs to be explained: using screen readers
like Orca or NVDA, we consider as accessible information what may be
reached via the caret, ie. what you can move with tab key or the arrow
keys. Using advanced features to access to the information, eg. object
navigation or flat review, is not optimal. It might work, but not
everybody know it and is it considered as a kind of hack to workaround
accessibility limitations.
For dialogs that present information without allowing to change
anything, like the case of the word count dialog ("Tools" -> "Word
Count") discussed here:
Would you still expect to be able to navigate within the dialog text
using tab or arrow keys?
Or would the expectation rather be that the dialog content is announced
by the screen reader automatically when the dialog gets shown?
So far, I was thinking more about the latter. This would also match the
current behavior of other info/warning dialogs, like the one that gets
shown when closing the document with unsaved changes.
I think that's a screen reader issue. You should probably report it
to NVDA.
Unfortunately I am not sure. I Cc Joanmarie Diggs, main Orca developer,
who can confirm or give you technical explanations. DOnt hesitate to
subscribe to the orca mailing list where all the community activity
takes place:
https://www.freelists.org/list/orca
I think if the screen reader is unable to announce a mismelled word
while speaking the current line or saying all the document, it is
because it does not get the info from the accessibilit tree.
That sounds plausible. As mentioned in my previous email, I'm planning
to take a closer look at this. Since it works with other applications
(like Word or Thunderbird) and NVDA is free and open source, too, I'm
optimistic that it'll be possible to identify what's missing on either
LibreOffice or NVDA side.
(According to Jason, this already works as expected with Orca on Linux.)
Best regards,
Michael
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] some issues with screen reader accessibility
Hi Daniel and Jason,
thanks a lot for your email mentioning these points and the further input!
Some notes/questions on the individual points follow below.
On 2023-10-05 00:01, Jason White wrote:
On 4/10/23 17:22, Daniel McGrath wrote:
Firstly, when bringing up a word count, it's very difficult to see...
for the screen reader to read the word count. Most of the window seems
taken up with a needlessly (to me) long explanation of what word count
does. The only way I've found of hearing the actual word count is to
use insert+b to get NVDA to read the whole dialog box, and the word
count comes right at the end. Little thing I know, but rather
irritating if one is trying to keep tabs on the number of words, and
having to read every time that this shows the word count of the
current selection and the whole document, and that this is
automatically updated as you type. Useful to know once of course, but
annoying to have to hear every single time.
I've just tested this under Linux with Orca, and I can use the screen
reader's review commands to read the dialogue. Starting from the bottom
gives me the character counts (with and without spaces), and the word
count.
The explanation of what word count does is not shown in the dialog, but
set as the accessible description of the dialog.
And when an accessible description is set for a dialog, NVDA announces
that description instead of the dialog content.
NVDA source code for this:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/blob/a380b6a76a0a29df32e57c1bd974b11a895ac0c8/source/NVDAObjects/behaviors.py#L151-L156
On top of that, the same text was set for both of the buttons, so when
pressing NVDA+B, the text would get announced three times: once as the
accessible description of the dialog at the very beginning, and then
once when each of the buttons is announced.
At least the latter seems wrong, so I've submitted a change to drop that:
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/157637
One approach to avoid announcing the explanation each time and
announcing the content instead would be dropping the accessible
description for the dialog, since it's still easily possible to get that
info by pressing the "Help" button in the dialog.
I've submitted a change to do that, but am currently waiting for
feedback from the documentation/help team on whether that's OK, since
that would also mean that the text is no longer shown as a tooltip when
extended tips are enabled in the LibreOffice options.
As a potential alternative, if you're primarily interested in the
document word count, that info is more quickly available in the status bar.
NVDA+End will announce it from NVDA 2023.2 on.
(This was implemented in NVDA for LibreOffice in
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/14933 .)
As a side note, when I tested that just now, I noticed that this needs
another update to work with the current development version of
LibreOffice and to make the functionality work with status bars in
dialogs as well. Pending/Suggested changes:
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/157658
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/157659
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/15592
But as far as I can tell, if you're using NVDA 2023.2 and LibreOffice
7.5 or 7.6, this should work fine.
My second point is about automatic spell checking. I find that my
screen reader will only inform me of a spelling error if the cursor
happens to land on the word. I don't know if I can make it any
clearer, but for instance if reading a line back in this email, NVDA
will announce "spelling error" each time it encounters a mis-spelled
word. In LO writer, I will only be told each mis-spelled word when the
cursor is on it. Pretty little thing this, but it would be nice if it
could be corrected.
I think that's a screen reader issue. You should probably report it to
NVDA.
I can reproduce this, e.g. with a paragraph containing this text:
"Hello world, wrrong spelling."
Moving to that paragraph using the cursor up/down key, NVDA announces
"spelling error" when using Word right away, but not for Writer.
I plan to take a look into that, but cannot say yet when I'll get to it.
My third problem is potentially quite important, because if you're
using a braille display, if you prefer to work without speech, which I
often do, it can make editing and proofing quite challenging. Along
the top of a braille display is a row of buttons called 'router keys'.
When pressed, the cursor is moved to that place in the document.
Cursor routing keys worked for me under Linux with a braille display and
the Orca screen reader when I last used them. It might be a Windows or
NVDA-specific issue.
Can you please provide a detailed description of how to reproduce this
issue? (What are the exact steps you're taking? What is the actual
outcome? What is the expected outcome?)
I noticed that NVDA has a braille viewer ("Tools" -> "Braille Viewer")
so tried to reproduce with that, since I don't have any actual hardware.
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Libre Inpress
Hi,
On 2023-09-25 23:59, Stéphane Guillou wrote:
Thank you for reaching out. I believe that the screen reader issue has
already been reported by others, at least in three reports (that could
potentially benefit from some consolidating):
* https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=96471
* https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101005
* https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149488
Thanks for pointing to these. I've at least linked them with each other
for now (via the "See also" field in Bugzilla).
Michael Weghorn might be able to summarise the situation regarding the
technical aspects.
Marco Zehe provided useful input earlier that I copied to comment 1 in
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149488 back then.
Reading that suggests that making this work properly will likely be
quite some work in both, LibreOffice and screen readers.
Regarding changing the slides, what controls did you try using? Using
the keyboard arrows did not work?
Switching the slides using the arrow keys does work for me.
When just using a single screen, nothing is announced, so this may not
be noticeable for a blind person.
I can confirm what Jason wrote, though:
On 2023-09-25 23:52, Jason White wrote:
> It used to be the case that you needed to run the Presenter Console for
> the presentation to be accessible with a screen reader. I don't know
> whether this has changed in recent years.
If I use a dual screen setup and the presenter console is enabled
("Tools" -> "Options" -> "LibreOffice Impress" -> "General" -> "Enable
Presenter Console" is active), at least the newly active slide number is
announced, e.g. "Current slide, slide 2, 2 of 2". (The slide content is
not announced then either, though.)
Farhan, are you using a single screen?
Best regards,
Michael
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility Requirement for LibreOffice Adoption at National Governmental Levels, etc.
Hi Marc, there was a discussion around VPAT in 2020 already, s. the mailing list thread starting here: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/msg00926.html To summarize: Your below suggestion is something that this list cannot deal with, but that would have to be addressed to the TDF Board of Directors (email address: direct...@documentfoundation.org). Michael On 2023-07-23 11:10, Marc Paré wrote: Hi all, Many thanks for the feedback on these questions, all of which have quite interesting information and suggestions. It would seem to me that LibreOffice should at least have a posted generic VPAT (Voluntary Product Accessibility Template) somewhere on its wiki where it is updated periodically. I would assume that the issue of legal liability could be tackled by the TDF board if there is a need for it, for which I would think there would be - this issue was raised in Jonathon's response. I have read up on possible templates from the ITI (Information Technology Industry Council) where they discuss the different versions of VPAT templates where they are offering on their site [https://www.itic.org/policy/accessibility/vpat]. These seem to incorporate the latest in requirements of various accessibility policies. IMO, the ITI's VPAT 2.4 INT template would best suit LibreOffice. Perhaps someone from the TDF could approach the ITI to see if they would like to join the LibreOffice project with the intent of using their professional help with helping LibreOffice set up and fill in a compatible VPAT template suitable on an international scale. This would add value to the LibreOffice product and help promote the project with organizations that require some level of adherence to accessibility policy. And, for the sake of competing with MSO, we would at least match a LibreOffice VPAT presence on our pages. I see that MSO has a page dealing with this [https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/accessibility/conformance-reports]. Marc Le 2023-07-19 à 10 h 19, Marc Paré a écrit : I was wondering if someone could comment on the following. If there were campaigns of LibreOffice/ODF adoption as default software/open document formats directed to various country governmental levels (either at the national, state/provincial, local/municipal, educational, NGO, etc.), would these different levels have each of their own requirements for adoption of LibreOffice/ODF adoption depending on their criteria of accessibility options of a LibreOffice? Or are there large differences in accessibility options between such organizations where each would have to be researched separately before embarking on such a campaign? Do the accessibility options found in LibreOffice suffice for all criteria of adoption for most of these organizations? Is there an organization that regulates accessibility requirements for software packages? Are there any missing accessibility options in LibreOffice that would essentially make it difficult for any governmental agency to adopt it as their default wordprocessor software suite? Marc -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] LibreOffice Calc 7.5.4.2 and NVDA 2023.1: NVDA Not Consistently Announcing Cell Coordinates When Navigating Using Arrow Keys
On 2023-06-30 07:04, David Goldfield wrote: Michael wrote: At first I was baffled as I was encountering this behavior rather consistently. However, I now understand why you weren't seeing the problem as well as how to correct it. In NVDA's Document Settings I had the "Cell Coordinates" option in the "Table Information" group disabled. Once I enabled this option cell coordinates are being announced correctly in the manner expected. Normally, if this option is disabled you will just hear NVDA announce "cell" instead of the coordinates, such as A1, B1, etc. However, if this option is disabled I think you'll encounter the issue. If you start at cell A1 move to the right a few times and then move back to the left. You should notice that NVDA attempts to read the cell coordinates but often reads the incorrect reference. Thanks for your further analysis. I can reproduce the issue with that option disabled and have reported an issue in NVDA's issue tracker and submitted a PR that fixes the issue in my tests: https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/15098 https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/15099 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] LibreOffice Calc 7.5.4.2 and NVDA 2023.1: NVDA Not Consistently Announcing Cell Coordinates When Navigating Using Arrow Keys
Hello, On 25/06/2023 19.50, David Goldfield wrote: Hello. I wanted to report this in case it's not a known issue. When using arrow keys such as right or left arrow to navigate in a Calc spreadsheet NVDA consistently announces the incorrect cell coordinates. This does not happen with JAWS 2023. So far, I cannot reproduce this with LibreOffice 7.5.4.2 and NVDA 2023.1. When I open a new spreadsheet and press the right arrow key, focus moves to cell B1 and NVDA announces "B1" as expected, etc. Is this also broken for you (if so, what exactly happens/is announced?) or is your scenario more complex? (What you describe sounds similar to https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=150683 - but that is fixed in LibreOffice 7.5 already.) Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility Regressions Observed With Writer 7.5.1 and JAWS 2023
Hello, On 21/06/2023 14.34, David Goldfield wrote: Hello. As of yesterday JAWS 2023 is now reading text in the manner expected when navigating a Writer document using arrow key navigation. From the changelog: Resolved an issue with JAWS not reading text entered into a document in LibreOffice Writer. https://support.freedomscientific.com/Downloads/Fusion/FusionWhatsNew#enhancements Excellent, thanks a lot for the info! Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility Regressions Observed With Writer 7.5.1 and JAWS 2023
On 2023-05-07 05:23, David Goldfield wrote: Michael Weghorn wrote: (I'd suggest to either query for the toolkit name, which is "VCL" or support not just "LibreOffice" as app name, but also "LibreOfficeDev", which is the name that the development version uses, and app names for vendor-specific LibreOffice derivatives.) Can you please report that to JAWS/Freedom Scientific (and keep this mailing list up to date on the outcome)? Done. It took me a while to do this for reasons not relevant to this list. I received a very prompt response from FS which said: "This is Nicki. this has actually been reported to our development department, so hopefully, it will be fixed soon." Great, thanks! Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility Regressions Observed With Writer 7.5.1 and JAWS 2023
On 21/03/2023 09.28, Michael Weghorn wrote:
2. When navigating in a pull-down menu JAWS is silent and no longer
reads the item that has focus. Example: press alt+T for the Tools menu
and
press down arrow to navigate in this menu. JAWS is now silent when moving
from one item to the next.
This starts at this commit and looks like a regression in LibreOffice:
https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/8d8e6c84e512c1a8b33aac75965b84481d1a1d13
("[API CHANGE] Drop css::accessibility::XAccessibleStateSet")
I have created a ticket in Bugzilla to keep track of this:
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=154303
Pending fix:
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/c/core/+/149255
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Accessibility Regressions Observed With Writer 7.5.1 and JAWS 2023
Hi David,
On 21/03/2023 03.30, David Goldfield wrote:
I just upgraded from LO 7.4 to 7.5.1 and I have noticed two accessibility
regressions with Writer and JAWS which make using Writer a total blocker for
JAWS users.
I can reproduce both issues (more details below).
1. JAWS no longer reads text when navigating in a document using
standard navigation commands, such as left arrow, right arrow, down arrow,
etc. JAWS just announces "edit" or is totally silent. This problem does not
usually occur using NVDA 2023.1 RC1. However, I have seen this behavior
occur once or twice. If I restart NVDA and move focus away from and then
back to Writer once or twice the problem goes away and navigation works as
expected.
Bibisecting shows that this starts at this LibreOffice commit:
https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/235b30bdfa76b5c0514c7dfe2a0d13ab8ecf5be2
("wina11y: Report actual app/toolkit name/version")
Before that commit, LibreOffice was for some unknown reason reporting to
be an app called "Hannover" with version number "3.0".
Now, it's reporting the actual app name and version, which I think is
the correct behavior.
(See also the commit message for an example on how to query those values
from NVDA's Python console. Note that this needs a "from
IAccessibleHandler import IA2" in addition before running the given
statements to import the required NVDA Python module.)
My assumption would be that JAWS is still somehow relying on the
previously reported app name and/or version to detect LibreOffice.
If so, that should be changed/fixed in JAWS in my opinion.
(I'd suggest to either query for the toolkit name, which is "VCL" or
support not just "LibreOffice" as app name, but also "LibreOfficeDev",
which is the name that the development version uses, and app names for
vendor-specific LibreOffice derivatives.)
Can you please report that to JAWS/Freedom Scientific (and keep this
mailing list up to date on the outcome)?
Please also mention in case any further input from LibreOffice side
should be needed.
The occasional non-announcement of paragraphs with NVDA (or also Orca on
Linux) is something that I've also experienced from time to time, but I
think that's a different issue and was the case in previous LibreOffice
versions already.
2. When navigating in a pull-down menu JAWS is silent and no longer
reads the item that has focus. Example: press alt+T for the Tools menu and
press down arrow to navigate in this menu. JAWS is now silent when moving
from one item to the next.
This starts at this commit and looks like a regression in LibreOffice:
https://git.libreoffice.org/core/commit/8d8e6c84e512c1a8b33aac75965b84481d1a1d13
("[API CHANGE] Drop css::accessibility::XAccessibleStateSet")
I have created a ticket in Bugzilla to keep track of this:
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=154303
Michael
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[libreoffice-accessibility] Re: high contrast accessibility application guidelines?
[Adding the accessibility mailing list, somebody on that list might have
more insights]
On 10/10/2022 22.02, Caolán McNamara wrote:
Is there a set of guidelines as to the intent of high contrast within
documents?
Not sure I grasp the context of this question (s. below), but from a
quick search: WCAG has a criterion 1.4.3 about contrast for (primarily
web) documents:
https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/quickref/?tags=contrast#contrast-minimum
The "Understanding Success Criterion 1.4.3: Contrast (Minimum)" page has
some more details on the intent, etc.:
https://www.w3.org/WAI/WCAG21/Understanding/contrast-minimum.html
As far as I can see in impress/draw/shapes we ignore/force-highcontrast
text color, line color and fill colors, and there's a certain logic to
that. And in general in documents we use a high contrast text selection
mode. >
On the other hand in writer we do show the real text color and fill
color in the normal document content, but do the opposite for shapes
and for the content of frames. If we use the insert, table UI, then we
have forced colors in the preview of what the table will look like, but
the final inserted table then doesn't have forced colors.
Is that with any explicit high-contrast settings either in the desktop
environment or OS (like a specific theme) or LibreOffice explicitly applied?
In a quick test of mine *without* having taken any explicit settings, it
behaved like this for me (LO master as of
221d76260096b9e6b4c4479b1b89c95af8b05774, gtk3 with Adwaita theme and
kf5 with Breeze theme):
Impress:
1) With the font color in character settings set to "Automatic" (the
default), font color seems to be chosen automatically to provide
contrast to the slide background ("Slide properties" -> "Background" ->
"Color"), e.g. changing slide background from white to black makes the
text be shown in white.
2) Character highlighting color doesn't seem to be taken into account,
though. (Setting black highlighting color for text in a new presentation
results in black text on black background.)
3) If any explicit color is set in the character settings, that one is
used, regardless of the background, nothing is forced then (i.e. if
slide background is set to black and font color is explicitly set to
black, text is unreadable).
Other than Impress, in Writer, "Automatic" text color seems to take into
account the character highlighting color and page background. (Changing
the character highlighting color or page background to black results in
white text, and character background takes precedence over page
background, which seems reasonable.) Explicitly setting font color to
black in addition results in black text on black on black background,
nothing is automatically adapted.
In a quick test on Windows 10 (with an older LO master as of commit
349e3af0c5dd5ed495ed61aab526f63c16f0e215), enabling "Use high contrast"
in the Windows settings results in unreadable text in Impress in a new
presentation (both, font and background use the same dark color).
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] jaws screen reader is not reading word count
On 28/09/2022 19.59, Jason White wrote: I tested this with the Orca screen reader under Linux. I am able to use the screen reader's review mode to read the dialogue, including the word and character counts. Have you tried to review it with the JAWS cursor? As I'm testing under Linux and you're using Windows, the results may differ. It also works for me in a test with NVDA 2022.3 on Windows when pressing the "Read active Window" shortcut (NVDA+B). -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26 [IAccessible2 support in JAWS]
On 22/06/2022 14.44, Jason White wrote: Note also that GTK 4 implements its own accessibility API, which, under Linux, connects directly to the running AT-SPI 2 demon. This approach may be an option in the future when the GTK 4 accessibility support matures. In other words, GTK is migrating away from ATK. For now, though, maintaining and improving the ATK support would be the best option for Linux users. I agree that focusing on improving a11y for the gtk3 variant (gtk3 "VCL plugin", which uses ATK) for Linux sounds like a reasonable approach for production use for now until GTK4 a11y matures. Besides that, I am also looking a bit into improving a11y for the Qt based VCL plugins, but that is far from being in a usable state as of now. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26 [IAccessible2 support in JAWS]
Hi Marco, all,
On 09/06/2022 09.39, Marco Zehe wrote:
AFAIK, QT exposes accessibility information to UIA on Windows. They switched
over from an MSAA implementation to UIA some time in the QT5 time frame:
https://www.qt.io/blog/2018/02/20/qt-5-11-brings-new-accessibility-backend-windows.
Indeed, that was what I had come across as well. (I had linked the
corresponding Qt commit in the wiki article about adding UIA support.)
So, using QT widgets in the VCL certainly would help with that, UIA
implementation bugs in the Windows QT layer not withstanding of course. So,
there are advantages of using QT on Windows where appropriate, but that also
entails the danger of inheriting QT UIA bugs.
Very true. While looking a bit into a11y of the Qt-based LO VCL plugins
on Linux, I also came across some issues that need fixing for the AT-SPI
integration in the Qt library rather than in LO.
I don't know anything about GTK4, so cannot make any qualified statement.
At a quick glance, everything underneath Gtk 4's "gtk/a11y" directory in
git ( https://gitlab.gnome.org/GNOME/gtk/-/tree/main/gtk/a11y ) still
looks AT-SPI only, though that might change at some point.
The original advantages of IAccessible2 and GTK3 was that they were made to be
very closely related to one another in terms of concepts. But with GTK4 and
other frameworks becoming more prominent, this has only been in a maintained
state for years, not really further developed, except for adding necessary
missing pieces for new HTML widgets or markup. UIA, on the other hand, has
turned out to be much more flexible especially with the latest enhancements
published by Microsoft. Custom property sets etc., which allows for various
annotations in MS Word, Excel etc. NVDA has a pull request for implementation
of some of these newest UIA technologies into their support for MS Office here:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/pull/13387
So, in the long run, it is probably safest to indeed invest in switching to an UIA implementation.
Note, however, that you may still need to do some work yourselves for the document specific stuff for Writer, Calc, and Impress specifically, since probably not everything is available in the QT libraries that you need.
As I understand it from what I have seen so far, the concept for current
LO a11y is also largely based on the same concepts as
IAccessible2/AT-SPI, and Qt a11y API is also largely based on the same.
IIUC, what current platform-specific a11y integrations in LO (gtk3,
qt5/qt6, winaccessibility) do is mostly provide a wrapper around/bridge
between LO a11y API and the platform-specific API (ATK for gtk3 which is
bridged to AT-SPI by ATK, Qt for qt5/qt6 which is then bridged to AT-SPI
by the Qt library for the Linux case, MSAA/IAccessible2 for
winaccessibility).
Most of the LO UI and document-specific a11y is implemented in a
platform-independent way (VCL toolkit for the UI) and the mapping to the
platform-specific implementations happens in a thin layer.
In my understanding, that would remain unchanged in case of using either
Gtk or Qt on Windows as well. As far as a11y is concerned, this would
essentially mean dropping the MSAA/IAccessible2 bridge contained in the
"winaccessibility" directory and reusing the code that is also used for
Linux (and leave the mapping to UIA to Gtk/Qt).
Should that turn out to be a reasonable approach (which I don't know!),
my expectation would be that this would essentially give us the same set
of features with UIA that we currently have with IAccessible2.
I suppose that supporting new UIA concepts/features in addition would
probably require more fundamental changes than "just" adding a new
wrapper/bridge for UIA around existing LO a11y interfaces (either a
custom one, or using Gtk/Qt).
But I'm not an expert and have only little experience with a11y so far
and not looked into UIA any closer, so all of the above would need
deeper knowledge/further investigation for a more reliable statement.
Unless there are resources to work on UIA specifically, I tend to think
it would make sense to focus on improving the existing
IAccessible2-based implementation ("winaccessibility") (and fixing
issues that are not platform-specific) for now if that's (still)
sufficiently supported by AT in practice, and reconsider what to do
about UIA at some later point in time (at which there might also be news
on the state of gtk4 and qt5/qt6 a11y).
Happy to hear what others think about this.
Michael
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26
Hi Marco, thanks for the additional input. I have added that to the Bugzilla ticket: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149488#c1 Michael On 08/06/2022 13.03, Marco Zehe wrote: Correct, in PowerPoint, when a presentation is started, both NVDA and JAWS, and presumably at some point, Narrator, too, will grab the slide contents and present it slide by slide like a web page. JAWS even annotates links, tables, lists, etc., in a very rich way. NVDA, to my knowledge, doesn't do that yet. In MS Office, screen readers have largely switched to using UI Automation (UIA) for access to all things documents and UI. This is primarily because of Narrator, which doesn't support anything other than UIA (MSAA and IA2 are only supported by way of an IA2 to UIA bridge, which is slow and unreliable). As a consequence, Microsoft never got on the IAccessible2 bandwaggon, but has pushed the UIA implementation in the Chromium project so they can stop using the IAccessible2ToUIA Bridge for Narrator's access to web content. There were even plans and experiments to switch Firefox over to UIA when I was still working at Mozilla. But since I am no longer involved there, I don't know if this is still on the table for the time after they finish the "Cache The World" project. So, in the long term, and as resources permit, the more future-proof way forward for LibreOffice on Windows might be to switch over to an UIA implementation as well. But even without that, there would need to be a concerted effort between the Impress and screen reader teams, like NVDA, to make NVDA realize that it is in a slide show in presentation mode, and gain all the access to the slide contents like it were a web page or similar. That cannot be achieved by one party alone I think. And getting Vispero on board for JAWS support is an even bigger fish to fry. Marco -Original Message- From: Jason White Sent: Tuesday, June 7, 2022 9:34 PM To: accessibility@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26 On 7/6/22 06:07, Michael Weghorn wrote: I tried again with just a single screen instead of two, and then NVDA announces "Slide 1", then reads out the slide content, and when moving further: "Slide 2" and its content, etc. Is that what you think Impress should do as well? (It didn't in a quick test with gtk3 on Linux.) Yes. If I recall correctly, under MS-Windows/PowerPoint, NVDA and JAWS both support arrow key navigation in the slide contents when the slides are being presented (i.e., after F5 is used to start a presentation). Ideally, one should be able to do the same in LibreOffice/Impress, and under Linux also. Space/Backspace navigate among slides in Windows/PowerPoint too. Obviously, Impress needs a similar keyboard mechanism for slide navigation. None of this should depend on the number of attached displays. I don't think anyone wants their accessibility to fail just in virtue of the number of displays that happen to be connected. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26 [IAccessible2 support in JAWS]
Hi Marco, On 08/06/2022 13.09, Marco Zehe wrote: JAWS does support IAccessible2, but only if it needs to, like in Firefox, and some parts of Chromium-based browsers. However, with the UI Automation implementation for the latter becoming stronger, there might be a time when JAWS moves to UIA for web content support in Chromium browsers. But you never know what plans Vispero actually has for which version of JAWS, ZoomText, and Fusion. All I notice is that, with Windows 11 having an even stronger UIA implementation than 10, more things are being done through that interface rather than traditional MSAA or IAccessible2 channels where possible. And as has been said elsewhere, UIA properties and events are even very accessible from within the JAWS scripting language, which makes this even more compelling because the end user experience can be customized further. As IAccessible2 is an extension of MSAA, and MSAA is largely deprecated by Microsoft, it will probably never get the same treatment. thanks a lot for that valuable input. I have added a new sub-section for adding UIA support to the wiki page ( https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Under-loved_areas#UIA_support_on_Windows ), mostly based on the above and more information from your other email about announcing slide content in Impress presentation mode ( https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/msg01007.html ). A probably rather crazy thought I once had was whether it would be a good idea to try to get rid of our custom a11y bridge on Windows in the long run after all, e.g. by switching to Gtk or Qt there as well (at least as one option). But that would certainly have to make sense not only from the a11y perspective but the UI as a whole and would probably be rather contentious. (I have close to zero knowledge about Windows-specific bits in LO besides winaccessibility, so don't know whether there would be any value in even spending any time in looking into this any further at some point in time. And as of now, neither the gtk4 nor the qt5/qt6 VCL plugins in LO have proper a11y anyway, and the Gtk 4 library presumably doesn't have any a11y implementation for Windows yet either, even though the new a11y architecture [1] in Gtk 4 should allow for one to be added at some stage.) Michael [1] https://blog.gtk.org/2020/10/21/accessibility-in-gtk-4/ -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26
On 07/06/2022 21.34, Jason White wrote: Yes. If I recall correctly, under MS-Windows/PowerPoint, NVDA and JAWS both support arrow key navigation in the slide contents when the slides are being presented (i.e., after F5 is used to start a presentation). Ideally, one should be able to do the same in LibreOffice/Impress, and under Linux also. Space/Backspace navigate among slides in Windows/PowerPoint too. Obviously, Impress needs a similar keyboard mechanism for slide navigation. None of this should depend on the number of attached displays. I don't think anyone wants their accessibility to fail just in virtue of the number of displays that happen to be connected. Thanks for the explanations. I have created a bug report based on this: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=149488 Could you please double-check that one? -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26 [IAccessible2 support in JAWS]
Hi Christophe, On 07/06/2022 12.14, Christophe Strobbe wrote: After some online searching, it seems that JAWS at least used to support IAccessible2, originally mainly for IBM Lotus Symphony. According to a tweet by Marco Zehe from December last year, JAWS handles Chromium and Edge via IAccessible2. (See https://twitter.com/MarcoInEnglish/status/1471523578805997570 ) That sounds promising, JAWS was what I vaguely had in mind about having been mentioned of presumably not supporting IAccessible2 (well) in the past. Twitter is not an ideal source, but I couldn't find any documentation related to IAccessible2 on Freedom Scientific's website. They do have documentation on to use script access to UIAutomation: https://support.freedomscientific.com/support/jawsdocumentation/UIAScriptAPI but nothing similar for IAccessible2. This calls for some LibreOffice testing with JAWS; I hope to do some of that next weekend. Thanks a lot, that's much appreciated! Best regards, Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26
On 07/06/2022 11.54, Michael Weghorn wrote: Could you please explain what the expected (and actual) behavior would be when showing an Impress presentation? I think it makes sense to create a bug report to keep track of this (and I'd be happy to do so, but don't know what to write). (In a quick test with MS Powerpoint and NVDA in a dual screen setup, NVDA just announced "Slide show complete" when I pressed F5 to start presentation mode and the first of three slides was shown... NVDA didn't announce anything when I was moving around using the tab key, so a quick look at that competing product didn't help me to figure out how it *should* behave...) I tried again with just a single screen instead of two, and then NVDA announces "Slide 1", then reads out the slide content, and when moving further: "Slide 2" and its content, etc. Is that what you think Impress should do as well? (It didn't in a quick test with gtk3 on Linux.) (Given the above, it looks to me at first sight as if MS Office was more or less behaving the opposite way of what you described for Impress, and is only accessible when presenter console is *not* enabled? Not having much experience, I might just be using it incorrectly, though...) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26
On 31/05/2022 22.13, Jason White wrote: On 31/5/22 14:11, David P Á wrote: Other problem with accessibility is comments and tracked changes on Writer. The issues with these systems make using Writer problematic in professional settings. I agree, and in particular, the screen reader/accessibility API support isn't implemented - at least for Linux. Thanks, Colomban also mentioned comments and tracked changes, and they are on the wiki page of topics that need some attention [1]: "Some relations are missing, like for annotations and footnotes (s. e.g. tdf#96481). Also, there is a lack of semantics for change tracking leading to messy output from ATs (s. e.g. tdf#96487). These could be seen as smaller and simpler issues." A further screen reader issue is that, at least when I last checked, running a presentation in Impress was not accessible, unless Presenter Console were used. However, I couldn't test Presenter Console, as I didn't have multiple monitors (I was using a laptop with its in-built display). Could you please explain what the expected (and actual) behavior would be when showing an Impress presentation? I think it makes sense to create a bug report to keep track of this (and I'd be happy to do so, but don't know what to write). (In a quick test with MS Powerpoint and NVDA in a dual screen setup, NVDA just announced "Slide show complete" when I pressed F5 to start presentation mode and the first of three slides was shown... NVDA didn't announce anything when I was moving around using the tab key, so a quick look at that competing product didn't help me to figure out how it *should* behave...) [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Under-loved_areas#Document_Level_Accessibility -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26
On 31/05/2022 14.20, Jason White wrote: It seems to be very much a matter of unaddressed bugs and regressions. The Document Foundation advertised a contract (presumably fulfilled by now) to rewrite the accessibility regression testing infrastructure in C++. FWIW, that conversion to C++ is currently still being worked on. That's an important step, but once the testing is in place, someone is going to have to find and start fixing the bugs - then maintain the quality of the implementation over time. Maintaining quality and avoiding regressions is where many accessibility efforts fall apart, whether in the free software world or in the products of large and well resourced corporations. There is also a tendency to implement solutions only partially, but not with good enough quality to satisfy the needs of the users. Being a large corporation with vast financial reasources doesn't necessarily resolve these difficulties. On the other hand, well organized and resourced free software projects can be remarkably successful in this area. +1 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26
On 31/05/2022 16.24, Christophe Strobbe wrote: I don't have a comprehensive overview of LibreOffice UI accessibility either, unfortunately. However, if you are looking for ways to prioritise issues, one way may be based on the accessibility requirements in the ETSI standard EN 301 549, which defines the requirements that software, documents and a number of other IT products will need to fulfil in the EU starting June 2025. If you want the biggest bang for your buck, my recommendations are the following: (1) With regard to the UI, focus on Windows-based accessibility issues first, since that is where (a) the majority of people with disabilities are and (b) the version that is most likely to get audited if accessibility audits get done. (As a Linux user, I would also like GTK-related to get fixed, but I am not representative of the market.) With regard to applications, I would focus on Writer before Impress or Calc. (I don't know how often Base and Draw are used in professional contexts, if at all.) Thanks, Christophe, that's really helpful. I generally agree with the priorities. (FWIW, looking at, comparing and working a bit on the a11y implementations of all of Windows/gtk3/qt has proven to be very useful to me to get a deeper overall understanding, though.) One other aspect that came to my mind: For Windows, we currently support IAccessible2, but not UIA. That's fine for NVDA, but I have heard/read at times that other screen readers/AT rely more on UIA. (But I haven't done any further research so far.) Does anybody know more about this and whether it would actually be necessary to implement native UIA support in LO for those AT to properly interact with LO? (Or is it more about having proper plugins/app modules/scripts for LO for the single AT, since e.g. NVDA and JAWS appear to rely heavily on those to properly support specific apps?) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26
On 31/05/2022 12.36, Caolán McNamara wrote:
If the overview is there are a thousand little things and not a small
set of large scale specific projects then that's still a useful
overview. We could still sweep them into some general themes.
Indeed. Thanks for adding the subtopics that came up during the
discussion on the wiki page.
(I have also *heard* that Base seems to be most problematic in
general, but haven't had much to do with it myself yet.)
I wonder if it's the initial base screen (I think I might have replaced
some custom widgets there with more standard ones which might have
improved matters) or the "design view" rows/columns screen which is a
custom widget, but one I think that does at least have an a11y
implementation. In general custom widgets lead to forgotten a11y, like
the extensions dialog.
How about math? I see a bug 140659 for math still open linked to the
meta bug, which says "formula editor not operable with screenreaders",
but then the commentary seems maybe less bleak
Does anyone (affected users?) have any further insights/experiences with
either Base or Math and could say where the main a11y problems are or
whether it's mostly working fine by now?
(For Math, might makes sense to retest that after a11y has been restored
for the elements panel after d79c527c2a599c7821d27cf03b95cb79e2abe685
("Use IconView in SmElementsControl"), which mentions that as a TODO in
the commit message and Mike already has a WIP change for that.)
Depends of what is being read out of course, missing labels for .ui
widgetry are super trivial to fix[1]. Something not read out from a
document can range from some small missing piece to some difficult
total lack of a11y.
Indeed, and I've seen various root causes when looking at different
issues, so it's really hard to say where the problems are without taking
a closer look into the single issues.
The a11y meta bug tdf#101912 [1] currently lists ~200 specific
issues. (I also have a ranked list from Richard, CCed, a blind user
who uses the NVDA screen reader on Windows.)
If Richard is ok with sharing that here it could help get a general
feel on what's lacking.
Read-only link to Richard's ranked list:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2m5cr0m8gzz027n/NvdaAndLoAccessibilityBugSummary.xlsx?dl=0
(no need to sign in, just click the "Download" button on the top left,
and switch to the "Summary" table to see the actual list)
Since the main focus is using LO with NVDA on Windows, the basis for the
list were:
1) all LO Bugzilla issues set as directly blocking one of tdf#60251
(Windows a11y meta bug), tdf#101912 (general a11y meta bug) or
tdf#103440 (sidebar a11y meta bug):
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/buglist.cgi?f1=blocked_id=1464413=anywordssubstr_format=advanced=---=60251%20101912%20103440
i.e. e.g. Linux- or macOS-specific issues or PDF a11y bugs are not
covered, since those have their own meta bugs underneath tdf#101912.
2) a list of issues related to LO/AOO from the NVDA issue tracker on Github
Since various issues have been reported for both, LO and NVDA, Richard
also matched the corresponding bug reports with each other (entries that
have both a "LO Bug ID" and an "NVDA Bug ID").
The underlying data from the two issue trackers is mostly from one year
ago, so newer issues don't show up unless they were blocking work on
existing ones.
(If of any practical value for upcoming steps, the list could be updated
or turned into a different form as needed.)
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[libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26
On 31/05/2022 12.01, Colomban Wendling wrote:
* Only on-screen elements of the document are exposed to ATs. This is
on purpose probably for performance (not sure if we have any numbers to
base it on?) so elements are lazy-loaded and destroyed, but it has
non-trivial impact on various AT features. There are some things
supposed to help mitigate the issues (like flows-from and flows-to
relationships), but they present their own sets of issues (like some
elements from there not having proper parent/child relationships, etc.).
tdf#35652 [1] ("ACC: AT-SPI accessible tree omits objects which are not
visible on the screen.") sounds like a related bug report here.
* Some relations are missing, like for annotations and footnotes.
There's e.g. tdf#96481 ("Connect annotations to the paragraphs they
describe").
Also there is a lack of semantics for change tracking leading to messy output
from ATs.
There's e.g. tdf#96487 ("Expose tracked changes to ATs via accessible
objects and attributes").
I have added links to those tickets to the wiki page [2] as well.
[1] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=35652
[2]
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Under-loved_areas#Document_Level_Accessibility
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[libreoffice-accessibility] Re: ESC meeting minutes: 2022-05-26
On 30/05/2022 11.08, Caolán McNamara wrote: For a11y I don't know what is seen as the major problems, is there some fundamentally missing pieces (like in the past not having direct windows IAccessible2 support and needing a java access bridge). Or are the fundamentals ok and its a matter of a general malaise. Is the general widgetry ok, but particular components have poor document level a11y. Or is there an endless amount of fairly easy entry level problems that there isn't enough people to take care of. I don't have a comprehensive overview at this point. At least from the little experience I have by now, I *tend to think* it's mostly the latter, at least as far as root causes for the major problems are concerned. (I have also *heard* that Base seems to be most problematic in general, but haven't had much to do with it myself yet.) From what I have seen so far while looking at some a11y issues affecting Windows and Linux (gtk3 and qt5/qt6 VCL plugins), the fundamentals look fine, and it seems to be mostly that various smaller issues in LO a11y code of the single components and the platform integrations (and sometimes in other projects, like the NVDA screen reader or the Qt library) cause a lack of a11y in the UI (lack of usability with accessibility technology, like screen readers, e.g. because not everything is announced) and documents (like a11y-related attributes not being properly set in docs, in particular when exported to other formats like OOXML, PDF, (X)HTML). The a11y meta bug tdf#101912 [1] currently lists ~200 specific issues. (I also have a ranked list from Richard, CCed, a blind user who uses the NVDA screen reader on Windows.) Working on some issues requires some level of understanding/experience with AT (accessibility technologies, like a screen reader), others (like doc export to other formats) shouldn't. I don't know about the situation on macOS. IIUC, the gtk4 VCL plugin currently doesn't have an a11y implementation yet, and there has been a change of how a11y is handled at least within the Gtk library itself. [1] @Caolán: Is that correct? And is it something you are planning to look into at some point or something that should be covered otherwise? I've added the accessibility mailing list; maybe others have further insights to add here. [1] https://blog.gtk.org/2020/10/21/accessibility-in-gtk-4/ [2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/Budget2022#Fix_accessibility_issues -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Using Calc with NVDA screen reader
Hi Chris, welcome to this list and thanks for sharing your experience from using LibreOffice with NVDA. My comments on the aspects you mention are inline below. On 10/01/2022 18.27, Christopher Mullins wrote: In Excel, the cell in focus is always selected (highlighted) and if I use Control+c to copy it's value to the clipboard, NVDA will announceCopied to clipboard. If I do the same thing in Calc, NVDA will announceNo Selectionhowever, the cell value will be copied to the clipboard. This is also the case if I use Control+Shift+Space toSelect all, all cells are copied to the clipboard but NVDA announcesNo Selectionwhen I press Control+c. On Windows, there are 2 different technologies that applications can use to implement accessibility: UIA (User Interface Automation) and MSAA (Microsoft Active Accessibility). Microsoft Office uses UIA, while LibreOffice uses MSAA. From what I can see, Excel triggers a UIA notification event after finishing the copy operation and NVDA speaks "Copy" as a consequence. I'm not aware of any equivalent in MSAA, so I think the reason why Excel announces something while LibreOffice does not is basically that the two applications are using different technologies to implement accessibility. At least from a technical perspective, that looks OK to me. The most annoying issue is how NVDA voices numbers. I formatted a column as Currency, 2 decimal places, currency symbol £ and leading minus signs on negative numbers. NVDA does not voice the currency symbol at all, even with symbol verbosity set toAlland trailing zeroes on the fractional side of the decimal point are truncated. That's actually something that should be improved, and there is already a report for this in LibreOffice's issue tracking system, Bugzilla: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115335 Best regards, Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Calc navigation bug fixed
Hi Simon, thanks for testing! Best regards, Michael On 07/01/2022 09.30, Simon Eigeldinger wrote: Hi all, Just want to report that in the latest daily build the calc navigation bug has been fixed. Now you can move around with the arrow keys as much as you want. Focus is always tracked acurately now. Tested with NVDA 2021.3.1 with LibreOffice 7.4.0 Master from 6 January 2022. Thanks for fixing. Greetings, Simon -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Sluggishness with NVDA and Calc
Hi Simon and Richard, On 17/12/2021 16.11, Michael Weghorn wrote: out of interest: How are you navigating through the sheet? Are you using the arrow keys (left, right, up, down) on a keyboard? It would definitely be interesting to hear whether the issue is still present once the problem mentioned by Richard has been fixed. I have just submitted a change that addresses the sluggishness that Richard reported in bug 146306 [1] to the current development version of LibreOffice. So if you want, retesting your issues with a daily build from tomorrow or later and reporting the outcome would be welcome. Best regards, Michael [1] https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146306 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
[libreoffice-accessibility] Re: Sluggishness with NVDA and Calc
Hi Richard, thanks a lot for the bug reports! I've set the bugs to confirmed in Bugzilla and have added them to the Windows accessibility meta bug. One more note for the announcement of the full hierarchy: If that bothers you a lot, pressing right arrow, then left arrow should be a usable workaround for now to get the wanted announcement of only the cell earlier (since the full hierarchy is not spoken when just navigating using the arrow keys without changing values). Michael PS: Adding the accessibility mailing list back to recipients. On 18/12/2021 21.18, Richard B. McDonald wrote: Hi Michael and Simon! I have created 1) 146306 – Sluggishness with NVDA and Calc <https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146306> and 2) 146307 – Full Accessibility Hierarchy of Cell in Calc Being Announced <https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=146307> bugs in Bugzilla. Michael, would you please review my entry of these bugs? Specifically, could you please tag each as “confirmed” and also tweak each as appropriate so as to up their priority (see next). Also, anything that you deem good as regards adding meta tags and keywords are greatly appreciated! Simon is correct; these issues have existed for a long time. When I first started working with LO, I thought they were transitory; meaning that I thought it was due to a user (my) lack of skill in using NVDA and Calc. Indeed, they are “development” issues. The thing of it is that these issues are basically a full-stop as regards using Calc with a screen reader or with Braille. I have added these two bugs into our Bug Summary Schedule. Notably, both have been given a “Class A” ranking; and each has been further ranked 1.10.1 and 1.10.2 (respectively) in the hope that they might be addressed as soon as possible. Ideally, these issues could be fixed in LibreOffice Dev 7.4. Simon, thanks for your input here. Bye, Richard -Original Message- From: Simon Eigeldinger Sent: Friday, December 17, 2021 8:05 AM To: accessibility@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Sluggishness with NVDA and Calc Hi Michael, I am navigating using the arrow keys. Thinking of it i am still using LibreOffice 7.1.5. So at the moment i am not sure if this bug is still present. Greetings, Simon Am 17.12.2021 um 16:11 schrieb Michael Weghorn: > Hi Simon, > > out of interest: How are you navigating through the sheet? Are you > using the arrow keys (left, right, up, down) on a keyboard? > It would definitely be interesting to hear whether the issue is still > present once the problem mentioned by Richard has been fixed. > > Kind regards, > Michael > > On 17/12/2021 15.31, Simon Eigeldinger wrote: >> Hi Guys, >> >> I also have something to that issue as well. >> Though i don't know if it is the same sluggishness. >> i have the feeling it has something to do with loosing focus or >> having tracking issues. >> When navigating very quickly through the sheet NVDA can't track the >> cursor in the sheet window and on the braille display you just see >> the word Cell. >> Speech stops after that. >> You can see that the cursor still moves because when you alt+tab out >> of the window and back in again you are on the cell where you wanted >> to be. >> The problem is then when navigating to the next cell you have the >> same tracking/focus issues again. >> The problem is a pretty old one i guess. >> >> >> Greetings, >> Simon >> >> >> Am 17.12.2021 um 15:05 schrieb Michael Weghorn: >>> Hi Richard, >>> >>> I can reproduce the behavior you describe, though the lag is only >>> about 4-5 seconds in my case. >>> >>> I'd suggest to create 2 bug reports in Bugzilla to keep track of this: >>> >>> * one bug report for the slowness (the first two aspects you >>> mention) >>> * one bug report for the full "accessibility hierarchy of the cell" >>> being announced >>> >>> More technically: I've taken a first look at the first one. It seems >>> that a significant amount of time is spent on retrieving/generating >>> an accessible description of involved accessibility objects. >>> >>> For the second issue: To my understanding, screen readers usually >>> only announce the "hierarchy" of a focused object up to the point >>> from which it's different from the previously focused object. One >>> potential explanation for the current behavior could be that for >>> some reason it's not exposed to NVDA that the previously selected >>
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Sluggishness with NVDA and Calc
Hi Simon, out of interest: How are you navigating through the sheet? Are you using the arrow keys (left, right, up, down) on a keyboard? It would definitely be interesting to hear whether the issue is still present once the problem mentioned by Richard has been fixed. Kind regards, Michael On 17/12/2021 15.31, Simon Eigeldinger wrote: Hi Guys, I also have something to that issue as well. Though i don't know if it is the same sluggishness. i have the feeling it has something to do with loosing focus or having tracking issues. When navigating very quickly through the sheet NVDA can't track the cursor in the sheet window and on the braille display you just see the word Cell. Speech stops after that. You can see that the cursor still moves because when you alt+tab out of the window and back in again you are on the cell where you wanted to be. The problem is then when navigating to the next cell you have the same tracking/focus issues again. The problem is a pretty old one i guess. Greetings, Simon Am 17.12.2021 um 15:05 schrieb Michael Weghorn: Hi Richard, I can reproduce the behavior you describe, though the lag is only about 4-5 seconds in my case. I'd suggest to create 2 bug reports in Bugzilla to keep track of this: * one bug report for the slowness (the first two aspects you mention) * one bug report for the full "accessibility hierarchy of the cell" being announced More technically: I've taken a first look at the first one. It seems that a significant amount of time is spent on retrieving/generating an accessible description of involved accessibility objects. For the second issue: To my understanding, screen readers usually only announce the "hierarchy" of a focused object up to the point from which it's different from the previously focused object. One potential explanation for the current behavior could be that for some reason it's not exposed to NVDA that the previously selected cell is a "sibling" of the one selected afterwards, or somehow focus is on another accessibility object in between. Both issues require a closer analysis from a development perspective, so unfortunately I currently have no idea what you could do from a user perspective to avoid this. Both issues don't occur when just navigating through the spreadsheet using the arrow keys (i.e. without making any changes) or when using the Orca screen reader with the gtk3 VCL plugin on Linux. Kind regards, Michael On 16/12/2021 18.49, Richard B. McDonald wrote: Hi! I am using Windows 10, LibraOffice 7.2.4 and NVDA 2021.3. with Calc, there is a great amount of sluggishness, as outlined below: - With a spreadsheet open, each time I enter a number into a cell, there is like a 15 second delay before NVDA responds with the number entered. - When using the enter or arrow keys after entering a number into a cell to move to a new cell, it takes like 15 seconds before NVDA responds. - Generally, after performing any of the two above actions, the full file path and file name is spoken. I do not have any special settings in either NVDA or LO. When using JAWS and Excel, I experience none of this sluggishness. What is causing this? Thanks, Richard -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Sluggishness with NVDA and Calc
Hi Richard, I can reproduce the behavior you describe, though the lag is only about 4-5 seconds in my case. I'd suggest to create 2 bug reports in Bugzilla to keep track of this: * one bug report for the slowness (the first two aspects you mention) * one bug report for the full "accessibility hierarchy of the cell" being announced More technically: I've taken a first look at the first one. It seems that a significant amount of time is spent on retrieving/generating an accessible description of involved accessibility objects. For the second issue: To my understanding, screen readers usually only announce the "hierarchy" of a focused object up to the point from which it's different from the previously focused object. One potential explanation for the current behavior could be that for some reason it's not exposed to NVDA that the previously selected cell is a "sibling" of the one selected afterwards, or somehow focus is on another accessibility object in between. Both issues require a closer analysis from a development perspective, so unfortunately I currently have no idea what you could do from a user perspective to avoid this. Both issues don't occur when just navigating through the spreadsheet using the arrow keys (i.e. without making any changes) or when using the Orca screen reader with the gtk3 VCL plugin on Linux. Kind regards, Michael On 16/12/2021 18.49, Richard B. McDonald wrote: Hi! I am using Windows 10, LibraOffice 7.2.4 and NVDA 2021.3. with Calc, there is a great amount of sluggishness, as outlined below: - With a spreadsheet open, each time I enter a number into a cell, there is like a 15 second delay before NVDA responds with the number entered. - When using the enter or arrow keys after entering a number into a cell to move to a new cell, it takes like 15 seconds before NVDA responds. - Generally, after performing any of the two above actions, the full file path and file name is spoken. I do not have any special settings in either NVDA or LO. When using JAWS and Excel, I experience none of this sluggishness. What is causing this? Thanks, Richard -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Problems with Base Form and Screenreader
Hello Frank, this sounds like LibreOffice might not be really accessible for the scenario you describe at this point. I suggest to create a bug report in LibreOffice Bugzilla, which allows to keep track of this issue: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/ I recommend attaching an easy sample document (without any confidential data) and mention the exact steps you are taking with that sample document, which makes it easier to reproduce and analyze the exact issue you're encountering. Best regards, Michael On 13/09/2021 08.16, Frank Becker wrote: Hello and good day, I am new here on the list and I would like to introduce myself briefly: My name is Frank and I am in the process of going blind.This means that I can still see something, but I also need the screen reader frequently. I am currently working with macOS BigSur and LIbreoffice 7.1.5.2. On a second system I have Windows 10 with the same LO version. Now to my problem: The forms in my database are not accessible and I don't know how to set up the forms for screen readers. I created the forms with the wizards and then entered the name of the control in the properties of the form elements in the helptext.This means that I can still see something, but I also need the screen reader frequently. I am currently working with macOS BigSur and LIbreoffice 7.1.5.2. On a second system I have Windows 10 with the same LO version. Now to my problem: The forms in my database are not accessible and I don't know what to do to set up the forms for screen readers. I created the forms with the wizards and then entered the name of the control in the properties of the form elements in the help text. Now I can at least work with the forms under MacOS and its screen reader Voiceover. But under Windows with Jaws or NVDA I can't get any further. Under NVDA I can't get to the next element at all (for example, with the Tab key). JAWS only reads something out occasionally. Another attempt with Fedora Linux and the Screenrader Orca shows that absolutely nothing is read out in a form, although something is entered under Help text. Under MacOS, the table element cannot be used with voiceover either. Nothing is announced at all. Am I doing something fundamentally wrong here or is Libreoffice not suitable for screen readers in this area? Since I did not get an answer to this problem in the German LO forum or in my community for the blind, I hope to find more information here. Many thanks already. Frank Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (free version) -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] How to activate and expected functionality of a "Drop Down Button"
Hi Richard,
nice to hear about your plan to switch to NVDA and LibreOffice!
And thanks for reporting the issues you're encountering.
I have created a bug report now:
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140762
While looking into this, I realized that texts are spoken when hovering
over the individual entries contained in the popup for the "Borders"
toolbar item using the mouse instead of using the keyboard. Those texts
are not particularly helpful yet ("item 1", "item 2", ...), but I plan
to submit a change to LibreOffice that will address at least this part
(proper labels) soon.
(This will be mentioned in the above bug ticket then.)
Michael
On 01/03/2021 21.30, Richard B. McDonald wrote:
Hi Michael!
Thank you once again for your wonderful help. Yes, I would love it if you
could make a bug report on this! Right now, I do not have an account on
Bugzilla; but I will create one soon. Seeing another example of how you do it
in respect of this issue here will be helpful for my learning too!
I am new to NVDA and LO, but a long-time user of JAWS and MS Office. I would
like to transition away from the latter two and to the former two, and so hence
these issues. No doubt there will be more to come. That said, I appreciate
your very knowledgeable help on this since the end result will be a more
accessible LO. Surely, there will be many, many people around the world who
will benefit! And, thanks for your work-around solution!
Thanks!
Richard
-----Original Message-
From: Michael Weghorn
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2021 1:00 AM
To: Richard B. McDonald ;
accessibility@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] How to activate and expected functionality of a
"Drop Down Button"
Hi Richard,
On 26/02/2021 14.55, Richard B. McDonald wrote:
I am using Windows 10, NVDA 2020.4 and LO 7.1. In several places,
like in Calc's formatting toolbar, there are things called a "drop down button."
How do you activate them, and what is the expected functionality? To
further, on this toolbar there is a drop down button for "Borders." I
have tried pressing "spacebar" and "enter" on it, but nothing seems to
happen (activation). What I expect to happen is some sort of a pick
list of types of borders would appear; such as single underline,
double underline and so on (functionality).
So, how do you activate a drop down button, and what is its functionality?
you're doing exactly the right thing and your expectation is correct, but
unfortunately there seems to be another accessibility bug here.
I just tested this with NVDA. Pressing the space or enter keys enables a popup where you can select between
different border types (e.g. "no border", "border only on the left", "border on all
four sides",...), but the screen reader does not announce what is selected or say anything when changing
selection using e.g. the arrow keys.
Do you want to create a bug report in Bugzilla for this? Otherwise I can do
that as well.
As a workaround for now, the corresponding functionality should also be
available in a dialog instead, e.g. for your example with the borders.
this is accessible like this:
* select cells
* right-click (or press "menu" button/Shift+F10
* select "Format Cells"
* navigate to "Borders" tab
Michael
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Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] How to activate and expected functionality of a "Drop Down Button"
Hi Richard, On 26/02/2021 14.55, Richard B. McDonald wrote: I am using Windows 10, NVDA 2020.4 and LO 7.1. In several places, like in Calc's formatting toolbar, there are things called a "drop down button." How do you activate them, and what is the expected functionality? To further, on this toolbar there is a drop down button for "Borders." I have tried pressing "spacebar" and "enter" on it, but nothing seems to happen (activation). What I expect to happen is some sort of a pick list of types of borders would appear; such as single underline, double underline and so on (functionality). So, how do you activate a drop down button, and what is its functionality? you're doing exactly the right thing and your expectation is correct, but unfortunately there seems to be another accessibility bug here. I just tested this with NVDA. Pressing the space or enter keys enables a popup where you can select between different border types (e.g. "no border", "border only on the left", "border on all four sides",...), but the screen reader does not announce what is selected or say anything when changing selection using e.g. the arrow keys. Do you want to create a bug report in Bugzilla for this? Otherwise I can do that as well. As a workaround for now, the corresponding functionality should also be available in a dialog instead, e.g. for your example with the borders. this is accessible like this: * select cells * right-click (or press "menu" button/Shift+F10 * select "Format Cells" * navigate to "Borders" tab Michael -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Spin Boxes Do Not Seem to Work Correctly
Hi Richard, I quickly tried with the current development version of LibreOffice and can reproduce the behavior you describe using the NVDA screen reader on Windows. The value is changed when pressing the up or down key, but the screen reader does not say the new value, so that looks like an accessibility bug indeed. The value is spoken when directly typing a value instead using the keyboard, e.g. pressing the key "3". I have created a bug report in Bugzilla: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=140594 (As a side note: This works fine when using the "gtk3" VCL plugin in Linux instead.) Michael On 19/02/2021 12.38, Richard B. McDonald wrote: Hi! I am using JAWS 2020, Windows 10 and LibreOffice 7.1. It seems that throughout LO spin boxes do not function correctly. For example, if I am in a spreadsheet (Calc) and I go to /Format/Cells/NumbersTab, General, and then tab a few times to the "Decimal Places" spin box - using my up/down arrow key does not change the value; or at least JAWS does not speak the value. This spin box behavior seems to happen throughout LO. Is there some trick or is this a bug? Thanks, Richard -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Arch Linux: LibreOffice 7 unable to read documents in Writer with Orca
Hi Devin, I'm not an expert here, but quickly tried this: enabled Orca, started LibreOffice Writer, typed some text, moved between the different paragraphs using the up and down keys and the text of those paragraphs was read out as expected, so that seemed to work just fine in my case. Is that what you're doing as well? I was using the Debian-provided LibreOffice 7.0.4 in my tests. What information does "Help" -> "About LibreOffice" show in your case? In particular, does it show "VCL: gtk3" in the "User Interface" section? (There are different so called "VCL plugins" on Linux, and at this point in time, you'll want gtk3 for best accessibility, the "kf5" one - which is selected by default e.g. when using a KDE Plasma or LXQt desktop - still needs more work to become more accessible). Michael On 17/02/2021 20.43, Devin Prater wrote: Hi all. I'm running LibreOffice Still, (Version: 7.0.4.2) on Arch Linux, with latest packages as of this morning. I just tried opening a document, and I cannot read it with arrow keys or any other method I know of: say all, Orca review. I checked settings, and read documents in protected view with arrow keys, in accessibility settings, is checked. I get documents in Word format, and download Google Docs files, so quickly popping them open and reading them is rather important to me, and I'd rather not Pandoc them all just to read them. Any ideas? I would think LibreOffice folks would test a major release for accessibility, especially for the "still" branch. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] Can LibreOffice be defaulted to save documents in MS Office formats?
Hi Richard, yes, you can configure that in the options under "Tools" -> "Options" -> "Load/Save" -> "General". There, select "Text document" as document type and set "Always save as" to "Word 2007 - 365 (*.docx)". And select "Spreadsheet" as document type and set "Always save as" to "Excel 2007 - 365 (*.xlsx)". Michael On 17/02/2021 23.19, Richard B. McDonald wrote: Hi! I am using the latest version of LibreOffice, JAWS 2020 and Windows 10. Is it possible to set the default file save as format to MS Word (.docx) and MS Excel (.xlsx) formats? If so, how? Thanks, Richard -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-accessibility] accessibility LibreOffice Writer?
Hello Keith, it's best to report LibreOffice bugs in the Bugzilla issue tracker at https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/ . This page contains some more information on reporting bugs: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/BugReport (After creating the bug report, you can add the keyword "accessibility" to the "Keywords" field and add "101912" to the "Blocks" field, so it will automatically be associated with the accessibility meta bug tdf#101912 ( https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101912 ). Best regards, Michael On 23/10/2020 16.15, Keith Reedy wrote: > Hello to the list. Is this the correct list for reporting accessibility > issues with Writer, the mac and screenreader Voiceover. > Thank you in advance for your reply. > Keith Reedy > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: accessibility+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/accessibility/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
