Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Jeremy]

On that point, we tell them that it is not our responsibility to track
their specific usage.  We tell them that their are routers like the
Fortigate which can track usage, but that we do not support those devices.
I tell them that I think the new Torch router does it too, but that we have
no experience with these devices.  "The only way that we track which
websites are visited and what you are doing on the Internet is with a
warrant or an order from the Department of Justice".  We stand behind our
usage tracking, and if they do not want to pay the bill then they can find
another provider.  We have lost two or three customers over four years who
refuse to pay, and it usually isn't worth sending those ones to
collections.  We just go and collect our equipment and write it off as bad
debt.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:52 PM, Adam Moffett  wrote:

> That's an interesting point.
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Stefan Englhardt" 
> To: af@afmug.com; "Wireless Administrator" 
> Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
> We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had to pay
>> surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family member, what
>> IP is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont use Akamai ...
>> You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute for a view
>> Euros. I am sure this service times cost us more money than the customers
>> had to pay surplus. We have to do flat pricing.
>>
>> On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 +
>>  "Wireless Administrator"  wrote:
>>
>>> This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.
>>> Customers don’t want it for obvious reasons. ISP’s are afraid to implement
>>> it for fear of losing customers.  If you lose money on an account is it
>>> really an asset to your business? I feel that the Large ISP’s have already
>>> implemented Usage Based Rate Adjustment. They seem to have an automated
>>> process to adjust rates that will force off the heavy users.  Our industry
>>> will not get respect until it asks for it.  UBB or UBRA (New term I coined)
>>> is the way ….
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka
>>> Technologies
>>> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM
>>> To: Simon Westlake
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Simon,
>>>
>>> But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does
>>> the baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way I can
>>> put it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting an
>>> apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68
>>> 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why should I care.
>>> However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have to deal with 78
>>> during the day and I may have to deal with 72 when I get home.
>>>
>>> Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still
>>> expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle
>>> the higher bandwidth internally.
>>> 4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone who
>>> is willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the
>>> same as that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a single person who
>>> just needs dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same
>>> amount as the family with 6 kids and 30 devices?  Why should the kid
>>> willing to buy his game on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who
>>> doesn't want to get up off the couch to change a disc?
>>> Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top
>>> notch fast and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric
>>> company gets to charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per
>>> person, the cell phone company charges per device, cable/satellite charges
>>> per box, hell even the streaming companies get to put limits on the number
>>> of people that can stream per account.  Why is it when we ask a heavy user
>>> to pay their fair share all hell breaks lose and we are the greedy bastards?
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Best regards,
>>> Mark mailto:
>>> m...@mailmt.com
>>>
>>> Myakka Technologies, Inc.
>>>  www.MyakkaTech.com
>>>
>>> Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
>>> 
>>> http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL
>>>
>>> Please Donate at Please Donate at 
>>> http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
>>> --
>>>
>>> Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem.
>>> The customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a
>>> 4K TV they 

Re: [AFMUG] Pre-terminated category 6 shielded cable

[David Coudron]

We have had great luck with DeepSurplus.  

There are some decent discounts in quantity.  
http://www.deepsurplus.com/Network-Structured-Wiring/Shielded-Cat6-Patch-Cables

We have been buying the outdoor burial shielded Cat 6 cables, but their prices 
for non-burial are pretty good too.

Thanks,

David Coudron
david.coud...@advantenon.com  |  Mobile: 612-991-7474
 
Advantenon, Inc.       
i...@advantenon.com  |  3500 Vicksburg Lane N, Suite 315, Plymouth, MN 55447  | 
 www.advantenon.com  |  Phone: 800-704-4720  |  Local: 612-454-1545 



-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jay Weekley
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:06 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Pre-terminated category 6 shielded cable

No, but they need to be 100 to 150 feet long and I don't see that option.

Colin Stanners wrote:
> Is there an issue with Monoprice ones?
>
> On Jun 21, 2017 8:40 PM, "Jay Weekley"  > wrote:
>
> Can anyone recommend a source for pre-terminated Cat 6 shielded cable?
>
>
> 
>  
>   Virus-free. www.avg.com
>  tm_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
>
>
> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

Re: [AFMUG] Pre-terminated category 6 shielded cable

[Jay Weekley]

No, but they need to be 100 to 150 feet long and I don't see that option.

Colin Stanners wrote:

Is there an issue with Monoprice ones?

On Jun 21, 2017 8:40 PM, "Jay Weekley" > wrote:


Can anyone recommend a source for pre-terminated Cat 6 shielded cable?


 
	Virus-free. www.avg.com 
 



<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Adam Moffett]

That's an interesting point.


-- Original Message --
From: "Stefan Englhardt" 
To: af@afmug.com; "Wireless Administrator" 
Sent: 6/21/2017 3:18:07 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had to 
pay surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family 
member, what IP is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont 
use Akamai ...
You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute for a view 
Euros. I am sure this service times cost us more money than the 
customers had to pay surplus. We have to do flat pricing.


On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 +
 "Wireless Administrator"  wrote:
This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.  
Customers don’t want it for obvious reasons. ISP’s are afraid to 
implement it for fear of losing customers.  If you lose money on an 
account is it really an asset to your business? I feel that the Large 
ISP’s have already implemented Usage Based Rate Adjustment. They seem 
to have an automated process to adjust rates that will force off the 
heavy users.  Our industry will not get respect until it asks for it.  
UBB or UBRA (New term I coined) is the way ….




Steve



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka 
Technologies

Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM
To: Simon Westlake
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?



Simon,

But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does 
the baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way 
I can put it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm 
renting an apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to 
be set at 68 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why 
should I care.  However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have 
to deal with 78 during the day and I may have to deal with 72 when I 
get home.


Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still 
expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to 
handle the higher bandwidth internally.
4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone 
who is willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to 
pay the same as that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a 
single person who just needs dependable fast internet occasionally be 
force to pay the same amount as the family with 6 kids and 30 devices? 
 Why should the kid willing to buy his game on a disc be forced to pay 
the same as the guy who doesn't want to get up off the couch to change 
a disc?
Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top 
notch fast and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric 
company gets to charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per 
person, the cell phone company charges per device, cable/satellite 
charges per box, hell even the streaming companies get to put limits 
on the number of people that can stream per account.  Why is it when 
we ask a heavy user to pay their fair share all hell breaks lose and 
we are the greedy bastards?



-- Best regards,
Mark 
mailto:m...@mailmt.com


Myakka Technologies, Inc.
 www.MyakkaTech.com

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
 
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL


Please Donate at Please Donate at  
http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html

--

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote:


The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. 
The customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they 
have a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going 
to look for other options if they have to pay every time they try to 
use a device in their household, and even if people are willing to 
pay, you still have to be able to deliver enough service to them to 
give them the speeds they want.


Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better 
solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, 
and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better 
option, but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to 
this problem. It may give you more money to build up your network a 
bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, and it won't change 
their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for them 
financially.


On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:


metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett < 
 dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:



I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 
oversubscription ratio to support 

Re: [AFMUG] Pre-terminated category 6 shielded cable

[Colin Stanners]

Is there an issue with Monoprice ones?

On Jun 21, 2017 8:40 PM, "Jay Weekley"  wrote:

> Can anyone recommend a source for pre-terminated Cat 6 shielded cable?
>

[AFMUG] Pre-terminated category 6 shielded cable

[Jay Weekley]

Can anyone recommend a source for pre-terminated Cat 6 shielded cable?

Re: [AFMUG] From start to finish

[Jaime Solorza]

Yep..3dB...link is short using Phoenix Contact I/O 900Mhz 1 watt
radios...used H polarity to minimize interference from Schneider Treo
radios in same band using V polarity at other nearby sites.

Jaime Solorza

On Jun 21, 2017 7:19 PM, "Jay Weekley"  wrote:

> Is that a teanoe weanie yagi at the top?
>
> Jaime Solorza wrote:
>
>> Here is picture I took today in Dona Ana NM of project we did months
>> back...water lines are finally done...so now they have SCADA system
>> operational.
>>
>> Jaime Solorza
>>
>> > source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient>
>> Virus-free. www.avg.com > ature?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-
>> email_content=emailclient>
>>
>> <#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] From start to finish

[Jay Weekley]

Is that a teanoe weanie yagi at the top?

Jaime Solorza wrote:
Here is picture I took today in Dona Ana NM of project we did months 
back...water lines are finally done...so now they have SCADA system 
operational.


Jaime Solorza

 
	Virus-free. www.avg.com 
 



<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

Re: [AFMUG] From start to finish

[Jaime Solorza]

Ha...spy my eye..

Jaime Solorza

On Jun 21, 2017 7:17 PM, "Chuck McCown"  wrote:

> Spies are gonna analyze those photos and hack the water system.
>
> *From:* Jaime Solorza
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:22 PM
> *To:* Animal Farm
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] From start to finish
>
> Here is picture I took today in Dona Ana NM of project we did months
> back...water lines are finally done...so now they have SCADA system
> operational.
>
> Jaime Solorza
>

Re: [AFMUG] From start to finish

[Chuck McCown]

Spies are gonna analyze those photos and hack the water system.

From: Jaime Solorza 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:22 PM
To: Animal Farm 
Subject: [AFMUG] From start to finish

Here is picture I took today in Dona Ana NM of project we did months 
back...water lines are finally done...so now they have SCADA system 
operational. 


Jaime Solorza

Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik Cloud Router Switch and 1Gbps

[George Skorup]

I have a water tower with ~165 of cat5 (not e) Superior Essex armored 
25-pair with GigE links running just fine.


On 6/21/2017 6:57 PM, Chris Wright wrote:

Gigabit on Cat5 is only good for about 80 feet.

Chris Wright
Network Administrator

-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:51 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Mikrotik Cloud Router Switch and 1Gbps

We use a lot of these Mikrotik 24 port rack mount switches.  Does anyone else 
have trouble getting there copper ethernet ports to hold 1Gbps connections on 
around 150 foot cat-5 runs with APC surge arrestors?

I have had this issue with PMP450i gear doing sync over power but now I am 
having the issue with SAF Lumina gear as well and there is no sync over power 
there.

Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik Cloud Router Switch and 1Gbps

[Matt]

Yes, I meant cat-5e.  We typically use Apex9 shielded outdoor with ez
shielded connectors.



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 6:50 PM, Matt  wrote:
> We use a lot of these Mikrotik 24 port rack mount switches.  Does
> anyone else have trouble getting there copper ethernet ports to hold
> 1Gbps connections on around 150 foot cat-5 runs with APC surge
> arrestors?
>
> I have had this issue with PMP450i gear doing sync over power but now
> I am having the issue with SAF Lumina gear as well and there is no
> sync over power there.

Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik Cloud Router Switch and 1Gbps

[Adair Winter]

No way.. Cat5 maybe. Who uses that? I would assume he means cat5e. Which
should have no trouble holding 1g link at 300+ feet.

At a previous job a customer didn't want to put fiber in to a remote
building so we pulled cat5e 550'. The only test that failed on the fluke
dtx-1800 was length.


On Jun 21, 2017 6:57 PM, "Chris Wright"  wrote:

> Gigabit on Cat5 is only good for about 80 feet.
>
> Chris Wright
> Network Administrator
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Matt
> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:51 PM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: [AFMUG] Mikrotik Cloud Router Switch and 1Gbps
>
> We use a lot of these Mikrotik 24 port rack mount switches.  Does anyone
> else have trouble getting there copper ethernet ports to hold 1Gbps
> connections on around 150 foot cat-5 runs with APC surge arrestors?
>
> I have had this issue with PMP450i gear doing sync over power but now I am
> having the issue with SAF Lumina gear as well and there is no sync over
> power there.
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Mikrotik Cloud Router Switch and 1Gbps

[Chris Wright]

Gigabit on Cat5 is only good for about 80 feet.

Chris Wright
Network Administrator

-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Matt
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:51 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Mikrotik Cloud Router Switch and 1Gbps

We use a lot of these Mikrotik 24 port rack mount switches.  Does anyone else 
have trouble getting there copper ethernet ports to hold 1Gbps connections on 
around 150 foot cat-5 runs with APC surge arrestors?

I have had this issue with PMP450i gear doing sync over power but now I am 
having the issue with SAF Lumina gear as well and there is no sync over power 
there.

[AFMUG] Mikrotik Cloud Router Switch and 1Gbps

[Matt]

We use a lot of these Mikrotik 24 port rack mount switches.  Does
anyone else have trouble getting there copper ethernet ports to hold
1Gbps connections on around 150 foot cat-5 runs with APC surge
arrestors?

I have had this issue with PMP450i gear doing sync over power but now
I am having the issue with SAF Lumina gear as well and there is no
sync over power there.

Re: [AFMUG] Unifi USG VPN

[Timothy Steele]

You need 5.5.x for anyone else needing VPN

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017, 8:34 AM Timothy Steele 
wrote:

> Wich one was it? I thought the final had it..
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017, 12:30 AM Brett A Mansfield <
> li...@silverlakeinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> Found it. It just wasn't clear in the release notes.
>>
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Brett A Mansfield
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2017, at 9:09 PM, Brett A Mansfield <
>> li...@silverlakeinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>> I'm just fine with beta when it comes to UBNT. I've rarely had issues
>> with them.
>>
>> I don't see a beta version that has this feature though.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Brett A Mansfield
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2017, at 9:01 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>>
>> GA is for squares. For over 5 years I've seen faster feature releases AND
>> bug fixes on beta. This is commonly the case on any modern software release.
>>
>> I guess that's fine if you're okay waiting 6 months to a year for feature
>> releases, but anymore most IT moves faster than that and it will cost you
>> competitive advantage in the market.
>>
>> When nervous, push to a pre-prod controller first.
>>
>> - Josh
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2017 9:56 PM, "Brett A Mansfield" <
>> li...@silverlakeinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Which version of controller? I'm using the latest GA release and it's
>>> not built in.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Brett A Mansfield
>>>
>>> On Jun 20, 2017, at 8:34 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>>>
>>> It's built in to the controller software.
>>>
>>> - Josh
>>>
>>> On Jun 20, 2017 9:31 PM, "Brett A Mansfield" <
>>> li...@silverlakeinternet.com> wrote:
>>>
 The downside is that it requires radius. It would be nice if it had its
 own built-in authentication. At least on the pro model. I don't want to
 setup a radius server for small businesses to use VPN. If I have to setup
 radius and there is no Domain controller, it's just easier and sometimes
 cheaper to forward the ports to a Mac mini and have it serve strictly as
 the VPN server.

 Thank you,
 Brett A Mansfield

 > On Jun 20, 2017, at 9:05 AM, Timothy Steele 
 wrote:
 >
 > Anyone get remote user VPN working with full unifi setups and care to
 share? I need to login as a local user and it looks like it finally
 supports it in the GUI..
 >
 >

>>>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Jeremy]

We have been somewhat UBB from the beginning.  We allow 300GB and then it
is 50 cents per GB thereafter.  4-5% of our customers exceed that amount
each month.  The heavy overage users inevitably move to Comcast where
available, as planned.  In areas where they are not an option our closest
competitor offers less GB per month for $30 more per month, requires a
contract, and has slow speeds at peak times.  So those customers will often
stay with us and add a satellite package or lower resolutions.  We have
very little churn over it, and it prevents abuse, and keeps our network
running fast.  We have one WISP in the area that is unlimited, and people
constantly switch to us because they have no network management, and people
abuse the system, stream 4K while sleeping, and nobody can get their
speedsconstant buffering.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 4:46 PM, Steve Jones 
wrote:

> massive MIMO and. wait for it. metered billing or datacaps
> (unlimited LOLZ)
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:
>
>> I think the metered ship has sailed. People are going to have to figure
>> out how to get big pipes into and throughout their networks.
>>
>> Our PtMP vendors are going to have to step it up as well. The cellular
>> guys are moving to massive MIMO on everything. We'll have to do that too.
>>
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Midwest Internet Exchange 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> The Brothers WISP 
>> 
>>
>>
>> 
>> --
>> *From: *"Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
>> *To: *"Simon Westlake" 
>> *Sent: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:06:53 PM
>> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>
>> Simon,
>>
>> But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does the
>> baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way I can put
>> it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting an
>> apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68
>> 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why should I care.
>> However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have to deal with 78
>> during the day and I may have to deal with 72 when I get home.
>>
>> Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still
>> expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle
>> the higher bandwidth internally.
>>
>> 4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone who
>> is willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the
>> same as that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a single person who
>> just needs dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same
>> amount as the family with 6 kids and 30 devices?  Why should the kid
>> willing to buy his game on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who
>> doesn't want to get up off the couch to change a disc?
>>
>> Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top
>> notch fast and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric
>> company gets to charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per
>> person, the cell phone company charges per device, cable/satellite charges
>> per box, hell even the streaming companies get to put limits on the number
>> of people that can stream per account.  Why is it when we ask a heavy user
>> to pay their fair share all hell breaks lose and we are the greedy
>> bastards?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *-- Best regards, Mark*mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>> 
>>
>>
>> *Myakka Technologies, Inc. *www.MyakkaTech.com
>>
>>
>> *Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life *
>> http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL
>>
>> *Please Donate at Please Donate at *http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *-- Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote: *
>>
>> The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem.
>> The customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a
>> 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for
>> other options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in
>> their household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to
>> be able to deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.
>>
>> Until there is more spectrum available, I think 

Re: [AFMUG] OTDR on fs.com

[Mike Hammett]

Anyone have a favorite OSA? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Paul McCall"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 8:46:40 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR on fs.com 



I kinda wish either of them would have 1625nm capability to be able to work 
with live fiber 



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Paul McCall 
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 9:44 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR on fs.com 

Do you own one? Where would you get it serviced or calibrated down the road? 



From: Af [ mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Keefe John 
Sent: Wednesday, June 14, 2017 4:36 PM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR on fs.com 

Spend a little more and get this one: 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SM-FTTH-Tester-KOMSHINE-QX50-S-OTDR-1310-1550nm-32-30dB-as-EXFO-Fiber-OTDR-w-VFL/112386318451?_trksid=p2047675.c15.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D41375%26meid%3D188f138388b343b8b752d0f580216517%26pid%3D15%26rk%3D3%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D112354147194
 



On 6/14/2017 3:30 PM, Adam Moffett wrote: 



Nope. We never bought it though. 





-- Original Message -- 

From: "Paul McCall" < pa...@pdmnet.net > 

To: "af@afmug.com" < af@afmug.com > 

Sent: 6/14/2017 4:01:47 PM 

Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OTDR on fs.com 





Was there any feedback on this Adam? 



From: Af [mailto: af-boun...@afmug.com ] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett 
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2017 11:25 AM 
To: Animal Farm < af@afmug.com > 
Subject: [AFMUG] OTDR on fs.com 


http://www.fs.com/products/34153.html 



What is the catch? Seems uber cheap. 

The dynamic range is low, but good enough for my purposes. Only single mode 
wavelengths, but I don't need a multimode OTDR anyway. 

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Steve Jones]

massive MIMO and. wait for it. metered billing or datacaps
(unlimited LOLZ)

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:12 PM, Mike Hammett  wrote:

> I think the metered ship has sailed. People are going to have to figure
> out how to get big pipes into and throughout their networks.
>
> Our PtMP vendors are going to have to step it up as well. The cellular
> guys are moving to massive MIMO on everything. We'll have to do that too.
>
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Midwest Internet Exchange 
> 
> 
> 
> The Brothers WISP 
> 
>
>
> 
> --
> *From: *"Mark - Myakka Technologies" 
> *To: *"Simon Westlake" 
> *Sent: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:06:53 PM
> *Subject: *Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
> Simon,
>
> But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does the
> baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way I can put
> it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting an
> apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68
> 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why should I care.
> However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have to deal with 78
> during the day and I may have to deal with 72 when I get home.
>
> Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still
> expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle
> the higher bandwidth internally.
>
> 4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone who is
> willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the same
> as that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a single person who just
> needs dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same amount
> as the family with 6 kids and 30 devices?  Why should the kid willing to
> buy his game on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't
> want to get up off the couch to change a disc?
>
> Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top notch
> fast and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric company gets
> to charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per person, the cell
> phone company charges per device, cable/satellite charges per box, hell
> even the streaming companies get to put limits on the number of people that
> can stream per account.  Why is it when we ask a heavy user to pay their
> fair share all hell breaks lose and we are the greedy bastards?
>
>
>
>
>
> *-- Best regards, Mark*mailto:m...@mailmt.com
> 
>
>
> *Myakka Technologies, Inc. *www.MyakkaTech.com
>
>
> *Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life *
> http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL
>
> *Please Donate at Please Donate at *http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
>
>
>
>
> *-- Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote: *
>
> The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. The
> customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV
> they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other
> options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their
> household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able
> to deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.
>
> Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better
> solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and
> prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better option,
> but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It
> may give you more money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to
> most customer's ears, and it won't change their behavior that much unless
> it's extremely painful for them financially.
>
> On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
>
> metered billing.. wave of the future
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
> I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.
>
> Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription
> ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
> As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll
> have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for
> consumptionor jack the price way up.
>
> 

Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower, etc) PV panels

[Chuck McCown]

I built a CO2 powered de icing spray system for one mountain top.  Camera so we 
could see if it was working.  Next time I would use nitrogen.  CO2 carbonated 
the fluid and it did not spray well.  

From: Sean Heskett 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 4:35 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower,etc) PV panels

Really difficult to recharge a 4 week battery bank with only one or two days of 
sunlight before another month of snow and overcast tho.

Generac generators are the best xmas gift I've ever bought for myself ;) 

-sean



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 10:16 AM Chuck McCown  wrote:

  4 weeks of batts will do the job...

  From: Sean Heskett 
  Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 11:13 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower,etc) PV panels
  When it snows for 4 weeks straight (not kidding) there's no amount of panels 
and batts that can save you.  

  On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:27 AM  wrote:

90 kWh/mo load is a 123 watt load.  (123*24*30.4)
123 * 20 = 2460 watts  My rule of thumb for Utah.  Assuming you have 2 
weeks of batts that is all you will need.

You have 4140 watts of panel.  That is 33X.  No doubt it will work.  
Probably produces usable current in moonlight.  Certainly overcast power.
During a light overcast you get 5% power.  If you are 20x load, you are 
fully powering the load during overcast.

Now, in my case, that extra 1680 watts of panel that I would not have 
installed would have paid for the generator and propane tank.  

So, 33X in WA and BC, 20X in Utah no generator.  10X in Utah with 
generator. (and that is cutting it thin).


From: Eric Kuhnke 
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:34 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower,etc) PV 
panels
I have to respectfully disagree, in WA and BC the mid winter sunlight hours 
are even fewer. But 12 x 345W panels tilted at 80 degrees facing directly south 
will produce far more than enough kWh/mo for a particular type of site's 
calculated needs, in December and January. Battery voltage monitoring systems 
are set up and a portable generator can be brought to the site if needed during 
those two months.   

Predicted production is about 247kWh a month in December.

Load, which is all DC, is below 90 kWh/mo.


On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 8:29 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:

  Totally agree with Chuck on this line of thought.  Where we are (NW 
ColoRADo) there is no amount of panels + batts you can install for Dec & Jan.  
Propane generator is the only way to keep an off grid site running.  YMMV

  -Sean



  On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 5:17 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

Remote start propane generator is a much better value for sites like 
this.  In the middle of winter have a low voltage relay trigger the generator.  
Run it just long enough to top the batts.  Usually an hour a day is more than 
enough.  Store enough propane to get through the worst of it.  

From: Eric Kuhnke 
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 6:00 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower,etc) PV 
panels

I care about efficiency because in some cases space is at a premium. If 
these were going on the roof of a warehouse/office type building I would agree. 
But in a place where it is 4x4 access only, and only in summer, there is a 
scenario where a big ground mount tilted at 80 degrees for off grid will only 
hold 12 x 72-cell panels (2.0 x 1.0m each).  

Going any bigger than that for square footage of panels and size of 
mount will drive up the cost considerably. The site I am building right now has 
12 x 345W 72-cell panels, and I am looking at a configuration with 12 x 360W 
panels for the next one. The goal is the greatest possible kWh production in 
December and January and additional safety margin for extended periods of 
cloudy days in mid winter. 



On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 6:58 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

  I use 11 watts per square foot as a rule of thumb.  Never wanted 
efficiency, always wanted low $/watt.

  From: Eric Kuhnke 
  Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 6:47 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower, etc) PV 
panels

  Anyone have a favorite vendor source for >21% efficient PV panels 
they'd like to share? 

  I'm looking at various commodity 60 and 72-cell modules made with 
4.95 to 5.0W high efficiency 156mm monocrystalline cells, but the Sunpower mono 
stuff is still better in STC watts per square foot.

  60-cell x 5W = 300W
  72-cell x 5W = 360W


  Of course, willing to pay somewhat of a price premium

Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower, etc) PV panels

[Sean Heskett]

Really difficult to recharge a 4 week battery bank with only one or two
days of sunlight before another month of snow and overcast tho.

Generac generators are the best xmas gift I've ever bought for myself ;)

-sean



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 10:16 AM Chuck McCown  wrote:

> 4 weeks of batts will do the job...
>
> *From:* Sean Heskett
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 21, 2017 11:13 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower,etc) PV
> panels
> When it snows for 4 weeks straight (not kidding) there's no amount of
> panels and batts that can save you.
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:27 AM  wrote:
>
>> 90 kWh/mo load is a 123 watt load.  (123*24*30.4)
>> 123 * 20 = 2460 watts  My rule of thumb for Utah.  Assuming you have 2
>> weeks of batts that is all you will need.
>>
>> You have 4140 watts of panel.  That is 33X.  No doubt it will work.
>> Probably produces usable current in moonlight.  Certainly overcast power.
>> During a light overcast you get 5% power.  If you are 20x load, you are
>> fully powering the load during overcast.
>>
>> Now, in my case, that extra 1680 watts of panel that I would not have
>> installed would have paid for the generator and propane tank.
>>
>> So, 33X in WA and BC, 20X in Utah no generator.  10X in Utah with
>> generator. (and that is cutting it thin).
>>
>>
>> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:34 PM
>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower,etc)
>> PV panels
>> I have to respectfully disagree, in WA and BC the mid winter sunlight
>> hours are even fewer. But 12 x 345W panels tilted at 80 degrees facing
>> directly south will produce far more than enough kWh/mo for a particular
>> type of site's calculated needs, in December and January. Battery voltage
>> monitoring systems are set up and a portable generator can be brought to
>> the site if needed during those two months.
>>
>> Predicted production is about 247kWh a month in December.
>>
>> Load, which is all DC, is below 90 kWh/mo.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 8:29 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
>>
>>> Totally agree with Chuck on this line of thought.  Where we are (NW
>>> ColoRADo) there is no amount of panels + batts you can install for Dec &
>>> Jan.  Propane generator is the only way to keep an off grid site running.
>>> YMMV
>>>
>>> -Sean
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 5:17 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>>
>> Remote start propane generator is a much better value for sites like
 this.  In the middle of winter have a low voltage relay trigger the
 generator.  Run it just long enough to top the batts.  Usually an hour a
 day is more than enough.  Store enough propane to get through the worst of
 it.

 *From:* Eric Kuhnke
 *Sent:* Tuesday, June 20, 2017 6:00 PM
 *To:* af@afmug.com
 *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower,etc)
 PV panels

 I care about efficiency because in some cases space is at a premium. If
 these were going on the roof of a warehouse/office type building I would
 agree. But in a place where it is 4x4 access only, and only in summer,
 there is a scenario where a big ground mount tilted at 80 degrees for off
 grid will only hold 12 x 72-cell panels (2.0 x 1.0m each).

 Going any bigger than that for square footage of panels and size of
 mount will drive up the cost considerably. The site I am building right now
 has 12 x 345W 72-cell panels, and I am looking at a configuration with 12 x
 360W panels for the next one. The goal is the greatest possible kWh
 production in December and January and additional safety margin for
 extended periods of cloudy days in mid winter.



 On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 6:58 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> I use 11 watts per square foot as a rule of thumb.  Never wanted
> efficiency, always wanted low $/watt.
>
> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
> *Sent:* Monday, June 19, 2017 6:47 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower, etc)
> PV panels
>
> Anyone have a favorite vendor source for >21% efficient PV panels
> they'd like to share?
>
> I'm looking at various commodity 60 and 72-cell modules made with 4.95
> to 5.0W high efficiency 156mm monocrystalline cells, but the Sunpower mono
> stuff is still better in STC watts per square foot.
>
> 60-cell x 5W = 300W
> 72-cell x 5W = 360W
>
>
> Of course, willing to pay somewhat of a price premium
>


>>>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Simon Westlake]

It's a possibility, sure. If you use DPI the right way, it would be a 
net negative for the customer to do that. Anyone implementing DPI as a 
punitive measure is doing it wrong. All the customer would get out of a 
whole house VPN is a return to Windows update filling their pipe, Xbox 
downloads increasing their gaming latency, etc.. and you're off the hook 
for support at that point.


It all really depends on if your perspective is to look for a solution 
to solve the problem, or a way to punish the customer. If you want to 
punish them, then they can certainly circumvent it fairly easily, and 
maybe there will be some easy way for them to buy something to do it. 
I'd argue it's totally the wrong approach though.


On 6/21/2017 3:14 PM, Robert Andrews wrote:
If there is a market for it, someone will make it easy for a small one 
time fee.


On 06/21/2017 11:14 AM, Simon Westlake wrote:

That's a possibility, but it is really not something I'm seeing today. I
don't think most consumers have the technical knowledge to understand
how to setup a whole-house VPN that will cover their TV, consoles,
ipads, etc.

On 6/21/2017 12:49 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:

DPI will reduce in usefulness as it becomes popular and customers
realize that paying $5/mo for a VPN makes their games download faster.
Customers just need to pay for their usage as it directly affects how
much we pay to furnish services to them.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Westlake > wrote:

The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the
problem. The customer still purchased a game they want to
download, or they have a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most
people are just going to look for other options if they have to
pay every time they try to use a device in their household, and
even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much
better solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game
downloads, and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish
there was a better option, but I really don't think implementing
UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more money to
build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's
ears, and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's
extremely painful for them financially.

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett
> wrote:

I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1
oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming
without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach
1:1.  You'll have to either start supplying 100meg, or start
billing for consumptionor jack the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't
even consider stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" >
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?


Yeah, this sucks for us. Even worse, many of these games
come out with dual licenses so that you can play on Windows
10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I bought a couple games
and checked it out.  It was amazing to be able to just
continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza
potentially 200GB, without DLC.  When you are providing
customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes
heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm not
sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not
been a gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K
content will likely hit us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an
option.  I initially bought discs, only to find that even
after ripping them to the hard drive, I have to walk down to
the network closet to insert the disc.  Digitally purchased
games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked
consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital
license if you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own
multiple Xbox One consoles (say at home and at work), you
can play any of your games on either console, at any time,
just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to me.  The
  

Re: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

[Chuck McCown]

Come on up and take a look.

-Original Message- 
From: Sterling Jacobson

Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:21 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

I could use that, just needs to fit a splice tray and stack a RB260GS unit 
on/next to it, lol!


-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:45 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

Ours are more like 8x10

-Original Message-
From: Sterling Jacobson
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 12:21 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

Still on-list, something around 14"x14" mostly empty with about 2"+ 
clearance inside would be idea.

Price point around $50 would be good.

If you have a couple of similar enclosures available to buy or 'borrow' I 
could use them while I order more.




-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 11:15 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

Give me some dims and price point.  I will check another vendor I know.

-Original Message-
From: Sterling Jacobson
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 10:00 AM
To: 'af@afmug.com'
Subject: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

Idiots at Codale still have 100 count of our 14" NID box on backorder since
forever and I'm out of it now.

Anyone have a good supplier that can somewhat quickly ship a good open
plastic outdoor enclosure around 14" size?

Any of us local Utah guys have a few I can buy and pick up to tie me over?

Re: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

[Sterling Jacobson]

I could use that, just needs to fit a splice tray and stack a RB260GS unit 
on/next to it, lol!

-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:45 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

Ours are more like 8x10

-Original Message-
From: Sterling Jacobson
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 12:21 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

Still on-list, something around 14"x14" mostly empty with about 2"+ clearance 
inside would be idea.
Price point around $50 would be good.

If you have a couple of similar enclosures available to buy or 'borrow' I could 
use them while I order more.



-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 11:15 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

Give me some dims and price point.  I will check another vendor I know.

-Original Message-
From: Sterling Jacobson
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 10:00 AM
To: 'af@afmug.com'
Subject: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

Idiots at Codale still have 100 count of our 14" NID box on backorder since 
forever and I'm out of it now.

Anyone have a good supplier that can somewhat quickly ship a good open 
plastic outdoor enclosure around 14" size?

Any of us local Utah guys have a few I can buy and pick up to tie me over?

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Robert Andrews]

If there is a market for it, someone will make it easy for a small one 
time fee.


On 06/21/2017 11:14 AM, Simon Westlake wrote:

That's a possibility, but it is really not something I'm seeing today. I
don't think most consumers have the technical knowledge to understand
how to setup a whole-house VPN that will cover their TV, consoles,
ipads, etc.

On 6/21/2017 12:49 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:

DPI will reduce in usefulness as it becomes popular and customers
realize that paying $5/mo for a VPN makes their games download faster.
Customers just need to pay for their usage as it directly affects how
much we pay to furnish services to them.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Westlake > wrote:

The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the
problem. The customer still purchased a game they want to
download, or they have a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most
people are just going to look for other options if they have to
pay every time they try to use a device in their household, and
even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much
better solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game
downloads, and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish
there was a better option, but I really don't think implementing
UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more money to
build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's
ears, and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's
extremely painful for them financially.

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett
> wrote:

I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1
oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming
without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach
1:1.  You'll have to either start supplying 100meg, or start
billing for consumptionor jack the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't
even consider stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" >
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?


Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games
come out with dual licenses so that you can play on Windows
10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I bought a couple games
and checked it out.  It was amazing to be able to just
continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza
potentially 200GB, without DLC.  When you are providing
customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes
heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm not
sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not
been a gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K
content will likely hit us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an
option.  I initially bought discs, only to find that even
after ripping them to the hard drive, I have to walk down to
the network closet to insert the disc.  Digitally purchased
games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked
consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital
license if you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own
multiple Xbox One consoles (say at home and at work), you
can play any of your games on either console, at any time,
just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to me.  The
only way to get this digital license is to download it from
the Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).
This has been a big bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get
hit with massive overages, and they usually switch to Comcast.

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke
> wrote:

This will be the new normal with the next generation
Xbox, when many customers start bringing them home...


https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download









--
Simon Westlake
Email: 

Re: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

[Chuck McCown]

Ours are more like 8x10

-Original Message- 
From: Sterling Jacobson

Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 12:21 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

Still on-list, something around 14"x14" mostly empty with about 2"+ 
clearance inside would be idea.

Price point around $50 would be good.

If you have a couple of similar enclosures available to buy or 'borrow' I 
could use them while I order more.




-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 11:15 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

Give me some dims and price point.  I will check another vendor I know.

-Original Message-
From: Sterling Jacobson
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 10:00 AM
To: 'af@afmug.com'
Subject: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

Idiots at Codale still have 100 count of our 14" NID box on backorder since 
forever and I'm out of it now.


Anyone have a good supplier that can somewhat quickly ship a good open 
plastic outdoor enclosure around 14" size?


Any of us local Utah guys have a few I can buy and pick up to tie me over?

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Mike Hammett]

I think the ACOE requires something 20'+. I would imagine if you're doing much 
of any distance, going 20' - 30' under the floor isn't that big of a deal. Just 
don't lose the shot. ;-) 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:45:11 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network 




No, probably 2 feet under would solve it too. Just slightly buoyant. 




From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:40 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network 


If you bored say 20 or 30 feet under the floor, would you still have floating 
issues? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:38:54 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network 




1.25” is fine, but it will float. On a water crossing you will need cinder 
blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down. Chop a hole out of one of the sides 
large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the cavities. 




From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network 


7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most would be 
sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 per ft for 1.25", 
ballpark numbers. 
8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable instead of 
"normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I would just direct 
bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere possible to save money. 
9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in the $70 
range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40. 
9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard to make 
strong, thin, concrete sections. 


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 




adding to list: 
7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct 
8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor 
9. good price vendor for handholes 
9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get concrete at 
80 bucks a yard 




On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 




A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided into 
different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt map yet to 
see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is about 
interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run past all 
the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest 
being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 
being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater. 
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need some 
sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this. 
Here are some questions: 
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber. 
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to drop 
fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade off is 
for DNR stocking. 
2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot? 
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit? 
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the duct 
accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands 
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database 
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency around 
here) 
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard 

In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This is all 
unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of forced 
incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this duct? 

assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions on 
tech specs 

Re: [AFMUG] Target Practice

[Rory Conaway]

Hahaha, yea, I’ve got some friends from Chicago who look like that now.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jaime Solorza
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 12:16 PM
To: Animal Farm
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Target Practice

I have a friend who can help
Jaime Solorza

On Jun 21, 2017 1:07 PM, "Rory Conaway" 
> wrote:
We have seen 3 outages with Cox in 3 days between 14 and 20 hours.  I know that 
one of them was fiber or the fiber box that was shot out and they are only 
saying so far, the other 2 were unplanned.

Rory

-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf 
Of Robert Andrews
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 11:04 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Target Practice

Hold my beer

On 06/21/2017 11:00 AM, Bill Prince wrote:
> As in "Hey Bubba, watch this!"
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 6/21/2017 10:38 AM, Chris Wright wrote:
>>
>> My tech�s notes:
>>
>> Found the cable at the bottom of the utility pole shredded. Customer
>> had targets on pole and it looks like it was shot with a shotgun.
>>
>> �
>>
>> Chris Wright
>>
>> Network Administrator
>>
>> �
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Stefan Englhardt]

We fade out our usage based plans. *Every* single customer who had to pay 
surplus makes us a lot of work. Calls from each single family member, what 
IP is this. Why cant you tell me what x.y.z.w is. I dont use Akamai ...
You have to take care there is no angry escalating dispute for a view Euros. 
I am sure this service times cost us more money than the customers had to 
pay surplus. We have to do flat pricing.


On Wed, 21 Jun 2017 18:59:41 +
 "Wireless Administrator"  wrote:
This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based 
billing.  Customers don’t want it for obvious reasons. 
ISP’s are afraid to implement it for fear of losing 
customers.  If you lose money on an account is it really 
an asset to your business? I feel that the Large ISP’s 
have already implemented Usage Based Rate Adjustment. 
They seem to have an automated process to adjust rates 
that will force off the heavy users.  Our industry will 
not get respect until it asks for it.  UBB or UBRA (New 
term I coined) is the way ….




Steve



From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark 
- Myakka Technologies

Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM
To: Simon Westlake
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB 
games?




Simon,

But metered billing makes them think about what they are 
doing.  Does the baby need to be falling asleep watching 
a 4K movie?  The best way I can put it is renting an 
apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting an 
apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to 
be set at 68 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all 
day, why should I care.  However, if I'm paying for 
electric, the cat will have to deal with 78 during the 
day and I may have to deal with 72 when I get home.


Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others 
it is still expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to 
upgrade your network to handle the higher bandwidth 
internally.  

4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why 
should someone who is willing to stream at 720 or pay for 
satellite TV, be forced to pay the same as that guy that 
wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a single person who 
just needs dependable fast internet occasionally be force 
to pay the same amount as the family with 6 kids and 30 
devices?  Why should the kid willing to buy his game on a 
disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't 
want to get up off the couch to change a disc?  

Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to 
deliver a top notch fast and reliable service at a single 
low price.  The electric company gets to charge per KW, 
the all you can eat buffet charges per person, the cell 
phone company charges per device, cable/satellite charges 
per box, hell even the streaming companies get to put 
limits on the number of people that can stream per 
account.  Why is it when we ask a heavy user to pay their 
fair share all hell breaks lose and we are the greedy 
bastards? 




--
Best regards,
Mark 
    
mailto:m...@mailmt.com


Myakka Technologies, Inc.
 www.MyakkaTech.com

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
 
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL


Please Donate at Please Donate at 
 
http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html

--

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote:


The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't 
solve the problem. The customer still purchased a game 
they want to download, or they have a 4K TV they want to 
watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for 
other options if they have to pay every time they try to 
use a device in their household, and even if people are 
willing to pay, you still have to be able to deliver 
enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.


Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a 
much better solution.. you can deprioritize and shape 
things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape their 
video streaming. I wish there was a better option, but I 
really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to this 
problem. It may give you more money to build up your 
network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, 
and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's 
extremely painful for them financially.


On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:


metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett < 
 dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:



I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar 
vein.


Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 
4:1 oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def 
streaming without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will 
approach 1:1.  You'll have to either start supplying 
100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack the 

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Cameron Crum]

One of our UBB clients does not count data between midnight and 5am. He
encourages his customers to schedule data backups, big downloads, updates
during those times (to the extent that is possible). It is probably a short
term solution given the way things are going, but it helps everyone else on
the network during peak times, and it saves the customer money for not
having those activities counted against their totals.


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 2:08 PM, Rory Conaway 
wrote:

> You can always put a monthly cap on there and disconnect the 5% of users
> that exceed it.
>
>
>
> Rory
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Wireless
> Administrator
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 21, 2017 12:00 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
>
>
> This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.  Customers
> don’t want it for obvious reasons.  ISP’s are afraid to implement it for
> fear of losing customers.  If you lose money on an account is it really an
> asset to your business? I feel that the Large ISP’s have already
> implemented Usage Based Rate Adjustment.  They seem to have an automated
> process to adjust rates that will force off the heavy users.  Our industry
> will not get respect until it asks for it.  UBB or UBRA (New term I coined)
> is the way ….
>
>
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> *From:* Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com ] *On
> Behalf Of *Mark - Myakka Technologies
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM
> *To:* Simon Westlake
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
>
>
> Simon,
>
> But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does the
> baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way I can put
> it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting an
> apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68
> 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why should I care.
> However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have to deal with 78
> during the day and I may have to deal with 72 when I get home.
>
> Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still
> expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle
> the higher bandwidth internally.
>
> 4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone who is
> willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the same
> as that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a single person who just
> needs dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same amount
> as the family with 6 kids and 30 devices?  Why should the kid willing to
> buy his game on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't
> want to get up off the couch to change a disc?
>
> Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top notch
> fast and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric company gets
> to charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per person, the cell
> phone company charges per device, cable/satellite charges per box, hell
> even the streaming companies get to put limits on the number of people that
> can stream per account.  Why is it when we ask a heavy user to pay their
> fair share all hell breaks lose and we are the greedy bastards?
>
>
>
>
>
> *-- Best regards, Mark*mailto:m...@mailmt.com
> 
>
>
> *Myakka Technologies, Inc. *www.MyakkaTech.com
>
>
> *Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life *
> http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL
>
> *Please Donate at Please Donate at *http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
>
>
> *-- Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote:*
>
> The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. The
> customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV
> they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other
> options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their
> household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able
> to deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.
>
> Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better
> solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and
> prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better option,
> but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It
> may give you more money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to
> most customer's ears, and it won't change their behavior that much unless
> it's extremely painful for them financially.
>
> On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
>
> metered billing.. wave of the future
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
> I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.
>
> Basically if 

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Mike Hammett]

If you care about those sorts of things, more APs, smaller sectors, smarter 
APs\sectors can be paid for with that increased revenue. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Simon Westlake"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:13:43 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 

Does it really though? My kids watch Netflix on my 4K TV, I'm not always there 
making sure they're watching HD stuff instead of 4K, so it's not something I 
think about. They download Minecraft mods on my PS4, it's not something I sit 
there thinking about. 

I'm not saying you can't do metered billing, and your argument is why shouldn't 
someone pay more. I'm not saying not to charge them more. If that is your 
business model, there is a legitimate argument to be made that they should pay 
more. 

However, the fact that games on the Xbox are now 100GB (and some cannot be 
obtained by any means other than by downloading them) is not a problem that is 
solved by metering - that's what I'm saying. If I own that console, I buy a 
game, and the download is 100GB, I have no option other than to download it and 
pay you extra. If you still don't have the capacity at the AP to support 
multiple users all downloading 100GB games at the same time, while others are 
streaming, and someone else is doing Windows updates, the fact that I am 
willing to pay extra for additional data transfer becomes completely 
irrelevant. This is why I am recommending DPI - it solves the problem. UBB 
really doesn't, if your issue is capacity, and you have no option to increase 
capacity due to spectral limitations. 


On 6/21/2017 1:06 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote: 


Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? Simon, 

But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing. Does the baby 
need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie? The best way I can put it is 
renting an apartment with utilities included. If I'm renting an apartment in FL 
with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68 24/7. The cat will be 
very comfortable all day, why should I care. However, if I'm paying for 
electric, the cat will have to deal with 78 during the day and I may have to 
deal with 72 when I get home. 

Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still expensive. 
Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle the higher 
bandwidth internally. 

4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080 or 720 TV's. Why should someone who is 
willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the same as 
that guy that wants to watch in 4K. Why should a single person who just needs 
dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same amount as the 
family with 6 kids and 30 devices? Why should the kid willing to buy his game 
on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't want to get up off 
the couch to change a disc? 

Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top notch fast 
and reliable service at a single low price. The electric company gets to charge 
per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per person, the cell phone company 
charges per device, cable/satellite charges per box, hell even the streaming 
companies get to put limits on the number of people that can stream per 
account. Why is it when we ask a heavy user to pay their fair share all hell 
breaks lose and we are the greedy bastards? 



-- 
Best regards, 
Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com 

Myakka Technologies, Inc. 
www.MyakkaTech.com 

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life 
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL 

Please Donate at Please Donate at http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html 
-- 

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote: 



The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. 
The customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV 
they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other 
options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their 
household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to 
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want. 

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better solution.. 
you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape 
their video streaming. I wish there was a better option, but I really don't 
think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more 
money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, 
and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for 
them financially. 

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote: 


metered billing.. wave of the future 



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam 

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Mike Hammett]

I think the metered ship has sailed. People are going to have to figure out how 
to get big pipes into and throughout their networks. 

Our PtMP vendors are going to have to step it up as well. The cellular guys are 
moving to massive MIMO on everything. We'll have to do that too. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Mark - Myakka Technologies"  
To: "Simon Westlake"  
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 1:06:53 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? Simon, 

But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing. Does the baby 
need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie? The best way I can put it is 
renting an apartment with utilities included. If I'm renting an apartment in FL 
with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68 24/7. The cat will be 
very comfortable all day, why should I care. However, if I'm paying for 
electric, the cat will have to deal with 78 during the day and I may have to 
deal with 72 when I get home. 

Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still expensive. 
Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle the higher 
bandwidth internally. 

4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080 or 720 TV's. Why should someone who is 
willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the same as 
that guy that wants to watch in 4K. Why should a single person who just needs 
dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same amount as the 
family with 6 kids and 30 devices? Why should the kid willing to buy his game 
on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't want to get up off 
the couch to change a disc? 

Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top notch fast 
and reliable service at a single low price. The electric company gets to charge 
per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per person, the cell phone company 
charges per device, cable/satellite charges per box, hell even the streaming 
companies get to put limits on the number of people that can stream per 
account. Why is it when we ask a heavy user to pay their fair share all hell 
breaks lose and we are the greedy bastards? 



-- 
Best regards, 
Mark mailto:m...@mailmt.com 

Myakka Technologies, Inc. 
www.MyakkaTech.com 

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life 
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL 

Please Donate at Please Donate at http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html 
-- 

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote: 


The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. 
The customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV 
they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other 
options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their 
household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to 
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want. 

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better solution.. 
you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape 
their video streaming. I wish there was a better option, but I really don't 
think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more 
money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, 
and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for 
them financially. 

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote: 

metered billing.. wave of the future 



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote: 

I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein. 

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription 
ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint. 
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1. You'll have to 
either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack the 
price way up. 

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider 
stuff like this. 



-- Original Message -- 
From: "Jeremy" < jeremysmi...@gmail.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 


Yeah, this sucks for us. Even worse, many of these games come out with 
dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same purchase. 
I bought a couple games and checked it out. It was amazing to be able to just 
continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop, but it was double 
the download size. This makes Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC. When you 
are providing customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes heavy 

Re: [AFMUG] Target Practice

[Eric Kuhnke]

In eastern WA one of the more common non-environmental causes of fiber cuts
is shotgun...  Even to the extent of taking out inter-city links that are
built aerial, carrying DWDM systems. Fun times for the field crew with OTDR
at 3:30 AM.



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:07 PM, Rory Conaway 
wrote:

> We have seen 3 outages with Cox in 3 days between 14 and 20 hours.  I know
> that one of them was fiber or the fiber box that was shot out and they are
> only saying so far, the other 2 were unplanned.
>
> Rory
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Robert Andrews
> Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 11:04 AM
> To: af@afmug.com
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Target Practice
>
> Hold my beer
>
> On 06/21/2017 11:00 AM, Bill Prince wrote:
> > As in "Hey Bubba, watch this!"
> >
> >
> > bp
> > 
> >
> > On 6/21/2017 10:38 AM, Chris Wright wrote:
> >>
> >> My tech�s notes:
> >>
> >> Found the cable at the bottom of the utility pole shredded. Customer
> >> had targets on pole and it looks like it was shot with a shotgun.
> >>
> >> �
> >>
> >> Chris Wright
> >>
> >> Network Administrator
> >>
> >> �
> >>
> >
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Rory Conaway]

You can always put a monthly cap on there and disconnect the 5% of users that 
exceed it.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Wireless Administrator
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 12:00 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.  Customers 
don’t want it for obvious reasons.  ISP’s are afraid to implement it for fear 
of losing customers.  If you lose money on an account is it really an asset to 
your business? I feel that the Large ISP’s have already implemented Usage Based 
Rate Adjustment.  They seem to have an automated process to adjust rates that 
will force off the heavy users.  Our industry will not get respect until it 
asks for it.  UBB or UBRA (New term I coined) is the way ….

Steve

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM
To: Simon Westlake
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

Simon,

But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does the baby 
need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way I can put it is 
renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting an apartment in 
FL with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68 24/7.  The cat will 
be very comfortable all day, why should I care.  However, if I'm paying for 
electric, the cat will have to deal with 78 during the day and I may have to 
deal with 72 when I get home.

Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still expensive.  
Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle the higher 
bandwidth internally.

4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone who is 
willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the same as 
that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a single person who just needs 
dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same amount as the 
family with 6 kids and 30 devices?  Why should the kid willing to buy his game 
on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't want to get up off 
the couch to change a disc?

Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top notch fast 
and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric company gets to 
charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per person, the cell phone 
company charges per device, cable/satellite charges per box, hell even the 
streaming companies get to put limits on the number of people that can stream 
per account.  Why is it when we ask a heavy user to pay their fair share all 
hell breaks lose and we are the greedy bastards?



--
Best regards,
Markmailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

Please Donate at Please Donate at http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
--

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote:

The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. The 
customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV 
they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other 
options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their 
household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to 
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better solution.. 
you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape 
their video streaming. I wish there was a better option, but I really don't 
think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more 
money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, 
and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for 
them financially.

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett 
> wrote:

I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription 
ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll have 
to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack 
the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider 
stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" >
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these 

Re: [AFMUG] Target Practice

[Rory Conaway]

We have seen 3 outages with Cox in 3 days between 14 and 20 hours.  I know that 
one of them was fiber or the fiber box that was shot out and they are only 
saying so far, the other 2 were unplanned.

Rory

-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Robert Andrews
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 11:04 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Target Practice

Hold my beer

On 06/21/2017 11:00 AM, Bill Prince wrote:
> As in "Hey Bubba, watch this!"
>
>
> bp
> 
>
> On 6/21/2017 10:38 AM, Chris Wright wrote:
>>
>> My tech�s notes:
>>
>> Found the cable at the bottom of the utility pole shredded. Customer 
>> had targets on pole and it looks like it was shot with a shotgun.
>>
>> �
>>
>> Chris Wright
>>
>> Network Administrator
>>
>> �
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Fwd: MIMO Grid for MIMOSA C5C

[Rory Conaway]

We have some of these running and have additional tests scheduled.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Colin Stanners
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 10:01 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: [AFMUG] Fwd: MIMO Grid for MIMOSA C5C

5ghz grid dish - wouldn't be great up north where we have lots of ice, but some 
in the south would find it useful.

-- Forwarded message --
From: 金西荣 >
Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:48 AM
Subject: MIMO Grid for MIMOSA C5C
To: cstann...@gmail.com

[http://track.vjjt.com/fkImages/18950/image/ANT4865D28PG-MIMO%20c5c.jpg]

Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower, etc) PV panels

[Eric Kuhnke]

Affordable high efficiency 72-cell panels are, in STC rating:

http://sinovoltaics.com/learning-center/quality/standard-test-conditions-stc-definition-and-problems/

330W 2.0 x 1.0 meter size = 172W/square meter STC

Or very nearly the same for 60-cell (1.65 x 1.0 meter) panels, at 175 to
181 W/sq meter.


Really high efficiency but more expensive panels, made of the top tier mono
cells, are now at 210-215 STC W per square meter. Have not purchased any
yet. But those were the main focus of my original post, to figure out how
significant the cost difference is vs. $0.52/watt 345W panels. And figure
out possible vendor sources.



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:27 AM,  wrote:

> 90 kWh/mo load is a 123 watt load.  (123*24*30.4)
> 123 * 20 = 2460 watts  My rule of thumb for Utah.  Assuming you have 2
> weeks of batts that is all you will need.
>
> You have 4140 watts of panel.  That is 33X.  No doubt it will work.
> Probably produces usable current in moonlight.  Certainly overcast power.
> During a light overcast you get 5% power.  If you are 20x load, you are
> fully powering the load during overcast.
>
> Now, in my case, that extra 1680 watts of panel that I would not have
> installed would have paid for the generator and propane tank.
>
> So, 33X in WA and BC, 20X in Utah no generator.  10X in Utah with
> generator. (and that is cutting it thin).
>
>
> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:34 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower,etc) PV
> panels
>
> I have to respectfully disagree, in WA and BC the mid winter sunlight
> hours are even fewer. But 12 x 345W panels tilted at 80 degrees facing
> directly south will produce far more than enough kWh/mo for a particular
> type of site's calculated needs, in December and January. Battery voltage
> monitoring systems are set up and a portable generator can be brought to
> the site if needed during those two months.
>
> Predicted production is about 247kWh a month in December.
>
> Load, which is all DC, is below 90 kWh/mo.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 8:29 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
>
>> Totally agree with Chuck on this line of thought.  Where we are (NW
>> ColoRADo) there is no amount of panels + batts you can install for Dec &
>> Jan.  Propane generator is the only way to keep an off grid site running.
>> YMMV
>>
>> -Sean
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 5:17 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>
>>> Remote start propane generator is a much better value for sites like
>>> this.  In the middle of winter have a low voltage relay trigger the
>>> generator.  Run it just long enough to top the batts.  Usually an hour a
>>> day is more than enough.  Store enough propane to get through the worst of
>>> it.
>>>
>>> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 20, 2017 6:00 PM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower,etc)
>>> PV panels
>>>
>>> I care about efficiency because in some cases space is at a premium. If
>>> these were going on the roof of a warehouse/office type building I would
>>> agree. But in a place where it is 4x4 access only, and only in summer,
>>> there is a scenario where a big ground mount tilted at 80 degrees for off
>>> grid will only hold 12 x 72-cell panels (2.0 x 1.0m each).
>>>
>>> Going any bigger than that for square footage of panels and size of
>>> mount will drive up the cost considerably. The site I am building right now
>>> has 12 x 345W 72-cell panels, and I am looking at a configuration with 12 x
>>> 360W panels for the next one. The goal is the greatest possible kWh
>>> production in December and January and additional safety margin for
>>> extended periods of cloudy days in mid winter.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 6:58 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>>
 I use 11 watts per square foot as a rule of thumb.  Never wanted
 efficiency, always wanted low $/watt.

 *From:* Eric Kuhnke
 *Sent:* Monday, June 19, 2017 6:47 PM
 *To:* af@afmug.com
 *Subject:* [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower, etc) PV
 panels

 Anyone have a favorite vendor source for >21% efficient PV panels
 they'd like to share?

 I'm looking at various commodity 60 and 72-cell modules made with 4.95
 to 5.0W high efficiency 156mm monocrystalline cells, but the Sunpower mono
 stuff is still better in STC watts per square foot.

 60-cell x 5W = 300W
 72-cell x 5W = 360W


 Of course, willing to pay somewhat of a price premium

>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Wireless Administrator]

This industry is in trouble.  Nobody wants usage based billing.  Customers 
don’t want it for obvious reasons.  ISP’s are afraid to implement it for fear 
of losing customers.  If you lose money on an account is it really an asset to 
your business? I feel that the Large ISP’s have already implemented Usage Based 
Rate Adjustment.  They seem to have an automated process to adjust rates that 
will force off the heavy users.  Our industry will not get respect until it 
asks for it.  UBB or UBRA (New term I coined) is the way ….

 

Steve

 

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Mark - Myakka Technologies
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:07 PM
To: Simon Westlake
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

 

Simon,

But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does the baby 
need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way I can put it is 
renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting an apartment in 
FL with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68 24/7.  The cat will 
be very comfortable all day, why should I care.  However, if I'm paying for 
electric, the cat will have to deal with 78 during the day and I may have to 
deal with 72 when I get home.

Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still expensive.  
Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle the higher 
bandwidth internally.  

4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone who is 
willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the same as 
that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a single person who just needs 
dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same amount as the 
family with 6 kids and 30 devices?  Why should the kid willing to buy his game 
on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't want to get up off 
the couch to change a disc?  

Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top notch fast 
and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric company gets to 
charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per person, the cell phone 
company charges per device, cable/satellite charges per box, hell even the 
streaming companies get to put limits on the number of people that can stream 
per account.  Why is it when we ask a heavy user to pay their fair share all 
hell breaks lose and we are the greedy bastards? 



-- 
Best regards,
Mark  mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
  www.MyakkaTech.com

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
  
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

Please Donate at Please Donate at   
http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
--

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote:


The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. The 
customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV 
they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other 
options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their 
household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to 
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better solution.. 
you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape 
their video streaming. I wish there was a better option, but I really don't 
think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more 
money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, 
and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for 
them financially.

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:


metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett <  
dmmoff...@gmail.com> wrote:


I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription 
ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll have 
to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack 
the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider 
stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" <  jeremysmi...@gmail.com>
To:   af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?


Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with dual 
licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I 
bought a couple games 

Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower, etc) PV panels

[Eric Kuhnke]

I can buy and mount an additional 1680W of panel (approx five 345W 72-cell
panels) for a lot cheaper than the 5-year cost of buying, shipping to me,
installing, fueling, and maintaining a generator. Not even before I count
the person-hours of labor needed for periodic maintenance drive-time visits
to and from wherever the generator is.

Now if this were a site with a 200W or 250W constant load it would be
different, the PV array would need to be gargantuan to get through mid
winter, and it would require a generator for supplemental charging mid
november to late february.



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:27 AM,  wrote:

> 90 kWh/mo load is a 123 watt load.  (123*24*30.4)
> 123 * 20 = 2460 watts  My rule of thumb for Utah.  Assuming you have 2
> weeks of batts that is all you will need.
>
> You have 4140 watts of panel.  That is 33X.  No doubt it will work.
> Probably produces usable current in moonlight.  Certainly overcast power.
> During a light overcast you get 5% power.  If you are 20x load, you are
> fully powering the load during overcast.
>
> Now, in my case, that extra 1680 watts of panel that I would not have
> installed would have paid for the generator and propane tank.
>
> So, 33X in WA and BC, 20X in Utah no generator.  10X in Utah with
> generator. (and that is cutting it thin).
>
>
> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:34 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower,etc) PV
> panels
>
> I have to respectfully disagree, in WA and BC the mid winter sunlight
> hours are even fewer. But 12 x 345W panels tilted at 80 degrees facing
> directly south will produce far more than enough kWh/mo for a particular
> type of site's calculated needs, in December and January. Battery voltage
> monitoring systems are set up and a portable generator can be brought to
> the site if needed during those two months.
>
> Predicted production is about 247kWh a month in December.
>
> Load, which is all DC, is below 90 kWh/mo.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 8:29 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
>
>> Totally agree with Chuck on this line of thought.  Where we are (NW
>> ColoRADo) there is no amount of panels + batts you can install for Dec &
>> Jan.  Propane generator is the only way to keep an off grid site running.
>> YMMV
>>
>> -Sean
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 5:17 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>
>>> Remote start propane generator is a much better value for sites like
>>> this.  In the middle of winter have a low voltage relay trigger the
>>> generator.  Run it just long enough to top the batts.  Usually an hour a
>>> day is more than enough.  Store enough propane to get through the worst of
>>> it.
>>>
>>> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 20, 2017 6:00 PM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower,etc)
>>> PV panels
>>>
>>> I care about efficiency because in some cases space is at a premium. If
>>> these were going on the roof of a warehouse/office type building I would
>>> agree. But in a place where it is 4x4 access only, and only in summer,
>>> there is a scenario where a big ground mount tilted at 80 degrees for off
>>> grid will only hold 12 x 72-cell panels (2.0 x 1.0m each).
>>>
>>> Going any bigger than that for square footage of panels and size of
>>> mount will drive up the cost considerably. The site I am building right now
>>> has 12 x 345W 72-cell panels, and I am looking at a configuration with 12 x
>>> 360W panels for the next one. The goal is the greatest possible kWh
>>> production in December and January and additional safety margin for
>>> extended periods of cloudy days in mid winter.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 6:58 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>>
 I use 11 watts per square foot as a rule of thumb.  Never wanted
 efficiency, always wanted low $/watt.

 *From:* Eric Kuhnke
 *Sent:* Monday, June 19, 2017 6:47 PM
 *To:* af@afmug.com
 *Subject:* [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower, etc) PV
 panels

 Anyone have a favorite vendor source for >21% efficient PV panels
 they'd like to share?

 I'm looking at various commodity 60 and 72-cell modules made with 4.95
 to 5.0W high efficiency 156mm monocrystalline cells, but the Sunpower mono
 stuff is still better in STC watts per square foot.

 60-cell x 5W = 300W
 72-cell x 5W = 360W


 Of course, willing to pay somewhat of a price premium

>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Eric Kuhnke]

If you are in the right place at, or very near a major IX point where
there's a carrier POP in the same building as you, and it's as easy as them
turning up a new 1310nm/LX 10Gb port on an aggregation router, more like
$0.10/Mbps...


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 10:00 AM, Josh Reynolds 
wrote:

> The divide between urban and rural connectivity is widening at a
> terrifying pace.
>
> 10G is lower than 0.20/Mb in many places now.
>
> - Josh
>
> On Jun 21, 2017 10:51 AM, "Steve Jones"  wrote:
>
>> metered billing.. wave of the future
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.
>>>
>>> Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1
>>> oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without
>>> complaint.
>>> As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll
>>> have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for
>>> consumptionor jack the price way up.
>>>
>>> They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even
>>> consider stuff like this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Jeremy" 
>>> To: af@afmug.com
>>> Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>
>>> Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with
>>> dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same
>>> purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to
>>> be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
>>> but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB,
>>> without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
>>> overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm
>>> not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a
>>> gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit
>>> us all pretty hard.
>>>
>>> My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I
>>> initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the
>>> hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
>>> Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the
>>> hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if
>>> you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
>>> (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either
>>> console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to
>>> me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the
>>> Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big
>>> bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and
>>> they usually switch to Comcast.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many
 customers start bringing them home...

 https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_wil
 l_be_100gb_download



>>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Simon Westlake]

Yes, it's not a fix to an improperly built network. Microsoft updates 
trashing a customer connection is not a problem of an improperly built 
network though. Neither is a kid downloading a 100GB game while another 
family member is trying to stream Netflix or make a VoIP call. Those are 
the kinds of problems I am proposing a solution to.


On 6/21/2017 1:25 PM, Paul McCall wrote:


DPI only becomes relevant as a part of the overall solution IF you do 
everything else.


Lots of APs with higher capacities

Lots of BHs with high capacities

Cheap BW (either you can already get it or it is really hard to 
solve that problem)


It takes an all in approach OR just do what you can do now and 
regulate what you have with only incremental, logical upgrades. There 
isn’t much in between logically, IMO


*From:*Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] *On Behalf Of *Simon Westlake
*Sent:* Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:21 PM
*To:* af@afmug.com
*Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

Well, until that happens, I think it's a pretty good option. It's 
going to be a pretty big technical hurdle for someone like DLink to 
offer a scalable VPN solution to hundreds of thousands of people, as 
well as convincing them to pay for it (and supporting it when 
something doesn't work right.)


You can get DPI today at a per-month cost with very little up front, I 
wouldn't worry too much about 'what ifs' in the future when there is a 
solution here today that doesn't require a big investment.


On 6/21/2017 1:18 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:

They don't, but if DPI becomes popular at ISPs and customers
notice, I guarantee that router manufacturers will offer a VPN
service that covers the whole house for a few bucks per month,
that can be activated with a single click after monthly billing is
arranged.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Simon Westlake
> wrote:

That's a possibility, but it is really not something I'm
seeing today. I don't think most consumers have the technical
knowledge to understand how to setup a whole-house VPN that
will cover their TV, consoles, ipads, etc.

On 6/21/2017 12:49 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:

DPI will reduce in usefulness as it becomes popular and
customers realize that paying $5/mo for a VPN makes their
games download faster. Customers just need to pay for
their usage as it directly affects how much we pay to
furnish services to them.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Westlake
> wrote:

The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't
solve the problem. The customer still purchased a game
they want to download, or they have a 4K TV they want
to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look
for other options if they have to pay every time they
try to use a device in their household, and even if
people are willing to pay, you still have to be able
to deliver enough service to them to give them the
speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is
a much better solution.. you can deprioritize and
shape things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape
their video streaming. I wish there was a better
option, but I really don't think implementing UBB is a
solution to this problem. It may give you more money
to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to
most customer's ears, and it won't change their
behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for
them financially.

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett
>
wrote:

I read some scary stuff the other day along a
similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll
need a 4:1 oversubscription ratio to support
peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.

As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio
will approach 1:1.  You'll have to either
start supplying 100meg, or start billing for
consumptionor jack the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video
trends, and didn't even consider stuff like this.

-- 

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Seth Mattinen]

On 6/21/17 11:18, Colin Stanners wrote:
They don't, but if DPI becomes popular at ISPs and customers notice, I 
guarantee that router manufacturers will offer a VPN service that covers 
the whole house for a few bucks per month, that can be activated with a 
single click after monthly billing is arranged.



And then 100% of the customer's traffic gets shaped down into a single 
category since you can't distinguish between updates or streaming or 
voip. Customer complains? Turn off the VPN before we can troubleshoot.


~Seth

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Paul McCall]

DPI only becomes relevant as a part of the overall solution IF you do 
everything else.

Lots of APs with higher capacities
Lots of BHs with high capacities
Cheap BW (either you can already get it or it is really hard to solve that 
problem)

It takes an all in approach OR just do what you can do now and regulate what 
you have with only incremental, logical upgrades.   There isn’t much in between 
logically, IMO


From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Simon Westlake
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:21 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

Well, until that happens, I think it's a pretty good option. It's going to be a 
pretty big technical hurdle for someone like DLink to offer a scalable VPN 
solution to hundreds of thousands of people, as well as convincing them to pay 
for it (and supporting it when something doesn't work right.)

You can get DPI today at a per-month cost with very little up front, I wouldn't 
worry too much about 'what ifs' in the future when there is a solution here 
today that doesn't require a big investment.
On 6/21/2017 1:18 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:
They don't, but if DPI becomes popular at ISPs and customers notice, I 
guarantee that router manufacturers will offer a VPN service that covers the 
whole house for a few bucks per month, that can be activated with a single 
click after monthly billing is arranged.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Simon Westlake 
> wrote:
That's a possibility, but it is really not something I'm seeing today. I don't 
think most consumers have the technical knowledge to understand how to setup a 
whole-house VPN that will cover their TV, consoles, ipads, etc.
On 6/21/2017 12:49 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:
DPI will reduce in usefulness as it becomes popular and customers realize that 
paying $5/mo for a VPN makes their games download faster. Customers just need 
to pay for their usage as it directly affects how much we pay to furnish 
services to them.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Westlake 
> wrote:
The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. The 
customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV 
they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other 
options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their 
household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to 
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better solution.. 
you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape 
their video streaming. I wish there was a better option, but I really don't 
think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more 
money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, 
and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for 
them financially.
On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett 
> wrote:
I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription 
ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll have 
to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack 
the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider 
stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" >
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with dual 
licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I 
bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to be able to just 
continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop, but it was double 
the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC.  When you 
are providing customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes heavy 
Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm not sure if that is a 
blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a gigantic churn issue for us, 
but the future of 4K content will likely hit us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I 
initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the hard 
drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.  Digitally 
purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked 

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Paul McCall]

Yep, guaranteed that will happen

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Colin Stanners
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 2:19 PM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

They don't, but if DPI becomes popular at ISPs and customers notice, I 
guarantee that router manufacturers will offer a VPN service that covers the 
whole house for a few bucks per month, that can be activated with a single 
click after monthly billing is arranged.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Simon Westlake 
> wrote:
That's a possibility, but it is really not something I'm seeing today. I don't 
think most consumers have the technical knowledge to understand how to setup a 
whole-house VPN that will cover their TV, consoles, ipads, etc.
On 6/21/2017 12:49 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:
DPI will reduce in usefulness as it becomes popular and customers realize that 
paying $5/mo for a VPN makes their games download faster. Customers just need 
to pay for their usage as it directly affects how much we pay to furnish 
services to them.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Westlake 
> wrote:
The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. The 
customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV 
they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other 
options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their 
household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to 
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better solution.. 
you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape 
their video streaming. I wish there was a better option, but I really don't 
think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more 
money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, 
and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for 
them financially.
On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett 
> wrote:
I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription 
ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll have 
to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack 
the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider 
stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" >
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with dual 
licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I 
bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to be able to just 
continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop, but it was double 
the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC.  When you 
are providing customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes heavy 
Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm not sure if that is a 
blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a gigantic churn issue for us, 
but the future of 4K content will likely hit us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I 
initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the hard 
drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.  Digitally 
purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked 
consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if you have 
purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles (say at home and 
at work), you can play any of your games on either console, at any time, just 
not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to me.  The only way to get this 
digital license is to download it from the Internet (or hack the console...not 
yet an option).  This has been a big bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get 
hit with massive overages, and they usually switch to Comcast.

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
> wrote:
This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many customers 
start bringing them home...

https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download







--

Simon Westlake

Email: simon@sonar.software

Phone: (702) 

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Simon Westlake]

Well, until that happens, I think it's a pretty good option. It's going 
to be a pretty big technical hurdle for someone like DLink to offer a 
scalable VPN solution to hundreds of thousands of people, as well as 
convincing them to pay for it (and supporting it when something doesn't 
work right.)


You can get DPI today at a per-month cost with very little up front, I 
wouldn't worry too much about 'what ifs' in the future when there is a 
solution here today that doesn't require a big investment.


On 6/21/2017 1:18 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:
They don't, but if DPI becomes popular at ISPs and customers notice, I 
guarantee that router manufacturers will offer a VPN service that 
covers the whole house for a few bucks per month, that can be 
activated with a single click after monthly billing is arranged.


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Simon Westlake > wrote:


That's a possibility, but it is really not something I'm seeing
today. I don't think most consumers have the technical knowledge
to understand how to setup a whole-house VPN that will cover their
TV, consoles, ipads, etc.

On 6/21/2017 12:49 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:

DPI will reduce in usefulness as it becomes popular and customers
realize that paying $5/mo for a VPN makes their games download
faster. Customers just need to pay for their usage as it directly
affects how much we pay to furnish services to them.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Westlake
> wrote:

The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the
problem. The customer still purchased a game they want to
download, or they have a 4K TV they want to watch movies on.
Most people are just going to look for other options if they
have to pay every time they try to use a device in their
household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still
have to be able to deliver enough service to them to give
them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much
better solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like
game downloads, and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I
wish there was a better option, but I really don't think
implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give
you more money to build up your network a bit, but it is
poison to most customer's ears, and it won't change their
behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for them
financially.

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett
> wrote:

I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a
4:1 oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def
streaming without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will
approach 1:1.  You'll have to either start supplying
100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack the
price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and
didn't even consider stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" >
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB
games?


Yeah, this sucks for us. Even worse, many of these
games come out with dual licenses so that you can play
on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I bought a
couple games and checked it out. It was amazing to be
able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left
off on my laptop, but it was double the download size. 
This makes Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC. When

you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly
switch providers.  I'm not sure if that is a blessing
or a curse. For now, it has not been a gigantic churn
issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely
hit us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is
not an option.  I initially bought discs, only to find
that even after ripping them to the hard drive, I have
to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a
menu, like all of the 

Re: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

[Sterling Jacobson]

Still on-list, something around 14"x14" mostly empty with about 2"+ clearance 
inside would be idea.
Price point around $50 would be good.

If you have a couple of similar enclosures available to buy or 'borrow' I could 
use them while I order more.



-Original Message-
From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Chuck McCown
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 11:15 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

Give me some dims and price point.  I will check another vendor I know.

-Original Message-
From: Sterling Jacobson
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 10:00 AM
To: 'af@afmug.com'
Subject: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

Idiots at Codale still have 100 count of our 14" NID box on backorder since 
forever and I'm out of it now.

Anyone have a good supplier that can somewhat quickly ship a good open plastic 
outdoor enclosure around 14" size?

Any of us local Utah guys have a few I can buy and pick up to tie me over?

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Colin Stanners]

They don't, but if DPI becomes popular at ISPs and customers notice, I
guarantee that router manufacturers will offer a VPN service that covers
the whole house for a few bucks per month, that can be activated with a
single click after monthly billing is arranged.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:14 PM, Simon Westlake 
wrote:

> That's a possibility, but it is really not something I'm seeing today. I
> don't think most consumers have the technical knowledge to understand how
> to setup a whole-house VPN that will cover their TV, consoles, ipads, etc.
>
> On 6/21/2017 12:49 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:
>
> DPI will reduce in usefulness as it becomes popular and customers realize
> that paying $5/mo for a VPN makes their games download faster. Customers
> just need to pay for their usage as it directly affects how much we pay to
> furnish services to them.
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Westlake 
> wrote:
>
>> The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem.
>> The customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a
>> 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for
>> other options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in
>> their household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to
>> be able to deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.
>>
>> Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better
>> solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and
>> prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better option,
>> but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It
>> may give you more money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to
>> most customer's ears, and it won't change their behavior that much unless
>> it's extremely painful for them financially.
>>
>> On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
>>
>> metered billing.. wave of the future
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.
>>>
>>> Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1
>>> oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without
>>> complaint.
>>> As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll
>>> have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for
>>> consumptionor jack the price way up.
>>>
>>> They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even
>>> consider stuff like this.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> -- Original Message --
>>> From: "Jeremy" 
>>> To: af@afmug.com
>>> Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>>
>>> Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with
>>> dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same
>>> purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to
>>> be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
>>> but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB,
>>> without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
>>> overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm
>>> not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a
>>> gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit
>>> us all pretty hard.
>>>
>>> My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I
>>> initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the
>>> hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
>>> Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the
>>> hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if
>>> you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
>>> (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either
>>> console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to
>>> me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the
>>> Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big
>>> bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and
>>> they usually switch to Comcast.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many
 customers start bringing them home...

 https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_wil
 l_be_100gb_download



>>>
>>
>> --
>> Simon Westlake
>> Email: simon@sonar.software
>> Phone: (702) 447-1247 US / (780) 900-1180 CA
>> ---
>> Sonar Software Inc
>> The future of ISP billing and OSShttps://sonar.software
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Simon Westlake]

Another way to look at my perspective on this:

If your network is being tramped by Windows updates today, does 
implementing UBB have any measurable impact on that problem? Conversely, 
does implementing DPI have any impact on that problem?


On 6/21/2017 1:13 PM, Simon Westlake wrote:
Does it really though? My kids watch Netflix on my 4K TV, I'm not 
always there making sure they're watching HD stuff instead of 4K, so 
it's not something I think about. They download Minecraft mods on my 
PS4, it's not something I sit there thinking about.


I'm not saying you can't do metered billing, and your argument is why 
shouldn't someone pay more. I'm not saying not to charge them more. If 
that is your business model, there is a legitimate argument to be made 
that they should pay more.


However, the fact that games on the Xbox are now 100GB (and some 
cannot be obtained by any means other than by downloading them) is not 
a problem that is solved by metering - that's what I'm saying. If I 
own that console, I buy a game, and the download is 100GB, I have no 
option other than to download it and pay you extra. If you still don't 
have the capacity at the AP to support multiple users all downloading 
100GB games at the same time, while others are streaming, and someone 
else is doing Windows updates, the fact that I am willing to pay extra 
for additional data transfer becomes completely irrelevant. This is 
why I am recommending DPI - it solves the problem. UBB really doesn't, 
if your issue is capacity, and you have no option to increase capacity 
due to spectral limitations.


On 6/21/2017 1:06 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? Simon,

But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does 
the baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way 
I can put it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm 
renting an apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to 
be set at 68 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why 
should I care.  However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will 
have to deal with 78 during the day and I may have to deal with 72 
when I get home.


Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still 
expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to 
handle the higher bandwidth internally.


4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone 
who is willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to 
pay the same as that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a 
single person who just needs dependable fast internet occasionally be 
force to pay the same amount as the family with 6 kids and 30 
devices?  Why should the kid willing to buy his game on a disc be 
forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't want to get up off the 
couch to change a disc?


Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top 
notch fast and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric 
company gets to charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per 
person, the cell phone company charges per device, cable/satellite 
charges per box, hell even the streaming companies get to put limits 
on the number of people that can stream per account.  Why is it when 
we ask a heavy user to pay their fair share all hell breaks lose and 
we are the greedy bastards?




/--
Best regards,
Mark /mailto:m...@mailmt.com

/Myakka Technologies, Inc.
/www.MyakkaTech.com 

/Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
/http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

/Please Donate at Please Donate at /http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
/--

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote:

/

	The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the 
problem. The customer still purchased a game they want to download, 
or they have a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most people are 
just going to look for other options if they have to pay every time 
they try to use a device in their household, and even if people are 
willing to pay, you still have to be able to deliver enough service 
to them to give them the speeds they want.


Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better 
solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, 
and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better 
option, but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to 
this problem. It may give you more money to build up your network a 
bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, and it won't change 
their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for them 
financially.


On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett > wrote:


I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Simon Westlake]

That's a possibility, but it is really not something I'm seeing today. I 
don't think most consumers have the technical knowledge to understand 
how to setup a whole-house VPN that will cover their TV, consoles, 
ipads, etc.


On 6/21/2017 12:49 PM, Colin Stanners wrote:
DPI will reduce in usefulness as it becomes popular and customers 
realize that paying $5/mo for a VPN makes their games download faster. 
Customers just need to pay for their usage as it directly affects how 
much we pay to furnish services to them.


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Westlake > wrote:


The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the
problem. The customer still purchased a game they want to
download, or they have a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most
people are just going to look for other options if they have to
pay every time they try to use a device in their household, and
even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much
better solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game
downloads, and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish
there was a better option, but I really don't think implementing
UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more money to
build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's
ears, and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's
extremely painful for them financially.

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett
> wrote:

I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1
oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming
without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach
1:1.  You'll have to either start supplying 100meg, or start
billing for consumptionor jack the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't
even consider stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" >
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?


Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games
come out with dual licenses so that you can play on Windows
10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I bought a couple games
and checked it out.  It was amazing to be able to just
continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza
potentially 200GB, without DLC.  When you are providing
customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes
heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm not
sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not
been a gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K
content will likely hit us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an
option.  I initially bought discs, only to find that even
after ripping them to the hard drive, I have to walk down to
the network closet to insert the disc. Digitally purchased
games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked
consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital
license if you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own
multiple Xbox One consoles (say at home and at work), you
can play any of your games on either console, at any time,
just not simultaneously. Discs are now useless to me.  The
only way to get this digital license is to download it from
the Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option). This
has been a big bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit
with massive overages, and they usually switch to Comcast.

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke
> wrote:

This will be the new normal with the next generation
Xbox, when many customers start bringing them home...


https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download









-- 
Simon Westlake

Email:simon@sonar.software 
Phone:(702) 447-1247   US /(780) 900-1180 

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Simon Westlake]

Does it really though? My kids watch Netflix on my 4K TV, I'm not always 
there making sure they're watching HD stuff instead of 4K, so it's not 
something I think about. They download Minecraft mods on my PS4, it's 
not something I sit there thinking about.


I'm not saying you can't do metered billing, and your argument is why 
shouldn't someone pay more. I'm not saying not to charge them more. If 
that is your business model, there is a legitimate argument to be made 
that they should pay more.


However, the fact that games on the Xbox are now 100GB (and some cannot 
be obtained by any means other than by downloading them) is not a 
problem that is solved by metering - that's what I'm saying. If I own 
that console, I buy a game, and the download is 100GB, I have no option 
other than to download it and pay you extra. If you still don't have the 
capacity at the AP to support multiple users all downloading 100GB games 
at the same time, while others are streaming, and someone else is doing 
Windows updates, the fact that I am willing to pay extra for additional 
data transfer becomes completely irrelevant. This is why I am 
recommending DPI - it solves the problem. UBB really doesn't, if your 
issue is capacity, and you have no option to increase capacity due to 
spectral limitations.


On 6/21/2017 1:06 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies wrote:

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? Simon,

But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does 
the baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way 
I can put it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm 
renting an apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to 
be set at 68 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why 
should I care.  However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have 
to deal with 78 during the day and I may have to deal with 72 when I 
get home.


Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still 
expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to 
handle the higher bandwidth internally.


4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone 
who is willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to 
pay the same as that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a 
single person who just needs dependable fast internet occasionally be 
force to pay the same amount as the family with 6 kids and 30 devices? 
 Why should the kid willing to buy his game on a disc be forced to pay 
the same as the guy who doesn't want to get up off the couch to change 
a disc?


Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top 
notch fast and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric 
company gets to charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per 
person, the cell phone company charges per device, cable/satellite 
charges per box, hell even the streaming companies get to put limits 
on the number of people that can stream per account.  Why is it when 
we ask a heavy user to pay their fair share all hell breaks lose and 
we are the greedy bastards?




/--
Best regards,
Mark /mailto:m...@mailmt.com

/Myakka Technologies, Inc.
/www.MyakkaTech.com 

/Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
/http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

/Please Donate at Please Donate at /http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
/--

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote:

/

	The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the 
problem. The customer still purchased a game they want to download, or 
they have a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most people are just 
going to look for other options if they have to pay every time they 
try to use a device in their household, and even if people are willing 
to pay, you still have to be able to deliver enough service to them to 
give them the speeds they want.


Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better 
solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, 
and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better 
option, but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to 
this problem. It may give you more money to build up your network a 
bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, and it won't change 
their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for them 
financially.


On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett > wrote:


I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 
oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without 
complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1. 
 You'll have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for 
consumptionor 

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Title: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?


Simon,

But metered billing makes them think about what they are doing.  Does the baby need to be falling asleep watching a 4K movie?  The best way I can put it is renting an apartment with utilities included.  If I'm renting an apartment in FL with electric included, my AC is going to be set at 68 24/7.  The cat will be very comfortable all day, why should I care.  However, if I'm paying for electric, the cat will have to deal with 78 during the day and I may have to deal with 72 when I get home.

Bandwidth prices are dropping for some, but for others it is still expensive.  Not to mention the HW costs to upgrade your network to handle the higher bandwidth internally.  

4K tvs cost more to buy than 1080  or 720 TV's.  Why should someone who is willing to stream at 720 or pay for satellite TV, be forced to pay the same as that guy that wants to watch in 4K.  Why should a single person who just needs dependable fast internet occasionally be force to pay the same amount as the family with 6 kids and 30 devices?  Why should the kid willing to buy his game on a disc be forced to pay the same as the guy who doesn't want to get up off the couch to change a disc?  

Why is it we are the only industry that is expected to deliver a top notch fast and reliable service at a single low price.  The electric company gets to charge per KW, the all you can eat buffet charges per person, the cell phone company charges per device, cable/satellite charges per box, hell even the streaming companies get to put limits on the number of people that can stream per account.  Why is it when we ask a heavy user to pay their fair share all hell breaks lose and we are the greedy bastards? 



-- 
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

Please Donate at Please Donate at http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
--

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 1:11:27 PM, you wrote:






The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. The customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better option, but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for them financially.

On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:




metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett  wrote:




I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?





Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop, but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit us all pretty hard. 

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.  Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles (say at home and at work), 

Re: [AFMUG] Target Practice

[Robert Andrews]

Hold my beer

On 06/21/2017 11:00 AM, Bill Prince wrote:

As in "Hey Bubba, watch this!"


bp


On 6/21/2017 10:38 AM, Chris Wright wrote:


My tech�s notes:

Found the cable at the bottom of the utility pole shredded. Customer
had targets on pole and it looks like it was shot with a shotgun.

�

Chris Wright

Network Administrator

�

Re: [AFMUG] Target Practice

[Bill Prince]

As in "Hey Bubba, watch this!"


bp


On 6/21/2017 10:38 AM, Chris Wright wrote:


My tech�s notes:

Found the cable at the bottom of the utility pole shredded. Customer 
had targets on pole and it looks like it was shot with a shotgun.


Chris Wright

Network Administrator

Re: [AFMUG] Target Practice

[Jay Weekley]

Make it expensive.

Chris Wright wrote:


My tech’s notes:

Found the cable at the bottom of the utility pole shredded. Customer 
had targets on pole and it looks like it was shot with a shotgun.


Chris Wright

Network Administrator


 
	Virus-free. www.avg.com 
 



<#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Colin Stanners]

DPI will reduce in usefulness as it becomes popular and customers realize
that paying $5/mo for a VPN makes their games download faster. Customers
just need to pay for their usage as it directly affects how much we pay to
furnish services to them.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:11 PM, Simon Westlake 
wrote:

> The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. The
> customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV
> they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other
> options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their
> household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able
> to deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want.
>
> Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better
> solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and
> prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better option,
> but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It
> may give you more money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to
> most customer's ears, and it won't change their behavior that much unless
> it's extremely painful for them financially.
>
> On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:
>
> metered billing.. wave of the future
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
>> I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.
>>
>> Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1
>> oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without
>> complaint.
>> As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll
>> have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for
>> consumptionor jack the price way up.
>>
>> They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even
>> consider stuff like this.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Jeremy" 
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>
>> Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with
>> dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same
>> purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to
>> be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
>> but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB,
>> without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
>> overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm
>> not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a
>> gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit
>> us all pretty hard.
>>
>> My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I
>> initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the
>> hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
>> Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the
>> hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if
>> you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
>> (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either
>> console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to
>> me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the
>> Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big
>> bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and
>> they usually switch to Comcast.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many
>>> customers start bringing them home...
>>>
>>> https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_wil
>>> l_be_100gb_download
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>
> --
> Simon Westlake
> Email: simon@sonar.software
> Phone: (702) 447-1247 US / (780) 900-1180 CA
> ---
> Sonar Software Inc
> The future of ISP billing and OSShttps://sonar.software
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Steve Jones]

"charge more to compensate for their consumption."
yeah
metered billing lol

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:16 PM, Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> People have been saying that for years.  Cellco tried to do it and look
> how that backfired, Verizon lost a ton of customers.
>
> Really just call it unlimited, limit it at a certain point (make sure
> legal covers your ass on this one), and then in the minimal situation where
> the customer complains you get rid of them or charge more to compensate for
> their consumption.
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340 <(937)%20552-2340>
> Direct: 937-552-2343 <(937)%20552-2343>
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:26 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies <
> m...@mailmt.com> wrote:
>
>> Steve,
>>
>> +1
>>
>>
>>
>> *-- Best regards, Mark*mailto:m...@mailmt.com
>> 
>>
>>
>> *Myakka Technologies, Inc. *www.MyakkaTech.com
>>
>>
>> *Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life *
>> http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL
>>
>> *Please Donate at Please Donate at *http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *-- Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 11:51:26 AM, you wrote: *
>>
>> metered billing.. wave of the future
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.
>>
>> Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1
>> oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without
>> complaint.
>> As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll
>> have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for
>> consumptionor jack the price way up.
>>
>> They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even
>> consider stuff like this.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Jeremy" 
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>
>>
>> Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with
>> dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same
>> purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to
>> be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
>> but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB,
>> without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
>> overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm
>> not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a
>> gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit
>> us all pretty hard.
>>
>> My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I
>> initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the
>> hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
>> Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the
>> hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if
>> you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
>> (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either
>> console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to
>> me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the
>> Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big
>> bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and
>> they usually switch to Comcast.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>> wrote:
>>
>> This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many
>> customers start bringing them home...
>>
>> https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_wil
>> l_be_100gb_download
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Mike Hammett]

The CDNs I've talked to want to fix it (at least where they're over-stuffing 
the connection), just don't know what to fix due to a lack of packet captures. 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Adam Moffett"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 12:17:45 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 


I'd love to see all the software updates from Apple, Microsoft, etc throttled 
back heavily. 
The end user will not know the difference if their software update takes 10 
minutes or 10 days. They don't even know when updates are happening anyway, 
they just call about their crummy speed test results and I have to be like, 
"yeah you're using all your bandwidth downloading something from Microsoft" 






-- Original Message -- 
From: "Simon Westlake" < simon@sonar.software > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:11:27 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 




The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. The 
customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have a 4K TV 
they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look for other 
options if they have to pay every time they try to use a device in their 
household, and even if people are willing to pay, you still have to be able to 
deliver enough service to them to give them the speeds they want. 

Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better solution.. 
you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, and prioritize/shape 
their video streaming. I wish there was a better option, but I really don't 
think implementing UBB is a solution to this problem. It may give you more 
money to build up your network a bit, but it is poison to most customer's ears, 
and it won't change their behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for 
them financially. 


On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote: 




metered billing.. wave of the future 






On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett < dmmoff...@gmail.com > wrote: 




I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein. 


Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription 
ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint. 
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1. You'll have to 
either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack the 
price way up. 


They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider 
stuff like this. 






-- Original Message -- 
From: "Jeremy" < jeremysmi...@gmail.com > 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games? 





Yeah, this sucks for us. Even worse, many of these games come out with dual 
licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same purchase. I 
bought a couple games and checked it out. It was amazing to be able to just 
continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop, but it was double 
the download size. This makes Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC. When you 
are providing customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes heavy 
Xbox customers very quickly switch providers. I'm not sure if that is a 
blessing or a curse. For now, it has not been a gigantic churn issue for us, 
but the future of 4K content will likely hit us all pretty hard. 


My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option. I initially 
bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the hard drive, I 
have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc. Digitally purchased 
games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked consoles. There is 
no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if you have purchased a disc. Also, 
if you own multiple Xbox One consoles (say at home and at work), you can play 
any of your games on either console, at any time, just not simultaneously. 
Discs are now useless to me. The only way to get this digital license is to 
download it from the Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option). This 
has been a big bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive 
overages, and they usually switch to Comcast. 


On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke < eric.kuh...@gmail.com > wrote: 



This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many customers 
start bringing them home... 


https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download 















-- 
Simon Westlake
Email: simon@sonar.software Phone: (702) 447-1247 US / (780) 900-1180 CA
---
Sonar Software Inc
The future of ISP billing and OSS https://sonar.software 

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Adam Moffett]

I'd love to see all the software updates from Apple, Microsoft, etc 
throttled back heavily.
The end user will not know the difference if their software update takes 
10 minutes or 10 days.  They don't even know when updates are happening 
anyway, they just call about their crummy speed test results and I have 
to be like, "yeah you're using all your bandwidth downloading something 
from Microsoft"




-- Original Message --
From: "Simon Westlake" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:11:27 PM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. 
The customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have 
a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to 
look for other options if they have to pay every time they try to use a 
device in their household, and even if people are willing to pay, you 
still have to be able to deliver enough service to them to give them 
the speeds they want.


Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better 
solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, 
and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better 
option, but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to this 
problem. It may give you more money to build up your network a bit, but 
it is poison to most customer's ears, and it won't change their 
behavior that much unless it's extremely painful for them financially.


On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett  
wrote:

I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 
oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without 
complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  
You'll have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for 
consumptionor jack the price way up.


They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even 
consider stuff like this.




-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out 
with dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the 
same purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was 
amazing to be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left 
off on my laptop, but it was double the download size.  This makes 
Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC.  When you are providing 
customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes heavy Xbox 
customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm not sure if that is a 
blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a gigantic churn 
issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit us all 
pretty hard.


My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  
I initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them 
to the hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to 
insert the disc.  Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from 
a menu, like all of the hacked consoles.  There is no option to 
'upgrade' to a digital license if you have purchased a disc.  Also, 
if you own multiple Xbox One consoles (say at home and at work), you 
can play any of your games on either console, at any time, just not 
simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to me.  The only way to get 
this digital license is to download it from the Internet (or hack 
the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big bummer to 
heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and they 
usually switch to Comcast.


On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
 wrote:
This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when 
many customers start bringing them home...


https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download 










-- Simon Westlake Email: simon@sonar.software Phone: (702) 447-1247 US 
/ (780) 900-1180 CA --- Sonar Software Inc The 
future of ISP billing and OSS https://sonar.software

Re: [AFMUG] i want this

[Steve Jones]

I wish they all would, though around here it would probably shift too much
unless they have some sort of anchors under the frost line. I still want
them though.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:14 PM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

> Some cities us those.  Have not seen in the U.S. but have in Europe.
>
> *From:* Steve Jones
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:54 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* [AFMUG] i want this
>
> between my house and garage, out to my patio, all around my house
> http://www.trenwa.com/component-trench/
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Josh Luthman]

People have been saying that for years.  Cellco tried to do it and look how
that backfired, Verizon lost a ton of customers.

Really just call it unlimited, limit it at a certain point (make sure legal
covers your ass on this one), and then in the minimal situation where the
customer complains you get rid of them or charge more to compensate for
their consumption.


Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:26 PM, Mark - Myakka Technologies <
m...@mailmt.com> wrote:

> Steve,
>
> +1
>
>
>
> *-- Best regards, Mark*mailto:m...@mailmt.com
> 
>
>
> *Myakka Technologies, Inc. *www.MyakkaTech.com
>
>
> *Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life *
> http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL
>
> *Please Donate at Please Donate at *http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
>
>
>
>
> *-- Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 11:51:26 AM, you wrote: *
>
> metered billing.. wave of the future
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
> I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.
>
> Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription
> ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
> As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll
> have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for
> consumptionor jack the price way up.
>
> They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider
> stuff like this.
>
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Jeremy" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
>
> Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with
> dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same
> purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to
> be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
> but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB,
> without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
> overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm
> not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a
> gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit
> us all pretty hard.
>
> My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I
> initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the
> hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
> Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the
> hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if
> you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
> (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either
> console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to
> me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the
> Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big
> bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and
> they usually switch to Comcast.
>
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
> wrote:
>
> This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many
> customers start bringing them home...
>
> https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_
> will_be_100gb_download
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower, etc) PV panels

[Chuck McCown]

4 weeks of batts will do the job...

From: Sean Heskett 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 11:13 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower,etc) PV panels

When it snows for 4 weeks straight (not kidding) there's no amount of panels 
and batts that can save you.  

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:27 AM  wrote:

  90 kWh/mo load is a 123 watt load.  (123*24*30.4)
  123 * 20 = 2460 watts  My rule of thumb for Utah.  Assuming you have 2 weeks 
of batts that is all you will need.

  You have 4140 watts of panel.  That is 33X.  No doubt it will work.  Probably 
produces usable current in moonlight.  Certainly overcast power.
  During a light overcast you get 5% power.  If you are 20x load, you are fully 
powering the load during overcast.

  Now, in my case, that extra 1680 watts of panel that I would not have 
installed would have paid for the generator and propane tank.  

  So, 33X in WA and BC, 20X in Utah no generator.  10X in Utah with generator. 
(and that is cutting it thin).


  From: Eric Kuhnke 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:34 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower,etc) PV panels
  I have to respectfully disagree, in WA and BC the mid winter sunlight hours 
are even fewer. But 12 x 345W panels tilted at 80 degrees facing directly south 
will produce far more than enough kWh/mo for a particular type of site's 
calculated needs, in December and January. Battery voltage monitoring systems 
are set up and a portable generator can be brought to the site if needed during 
those two months.   

  Predicted production is about 247kWh a month in December.

  Load, which is all DC, is below 90 kWh/mo.


  On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 8:29 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:

Totally agree with Chuck on this line of thought.  Where we are (NW 
ColoRADo) there is no amount of panels + batts you can install for Dec & Jan.  
Propane generator is the only way to keep an off grid site running.  YMMV

-Sean



On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 5:17 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

  Remote start propane generator is a much better value for sites like 
this.  In the middle of winter have a low voltage relay trigger the generator.  
Run it just long enough to top the batts.  Usually an hour a day is more than 
enough.  Store enough propane to get through the worst of it.  

  From: Eric Kuhnke 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 6:00 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower,etc) PV 
panels

  I care about efficiency because in some cases space is at a premium. If 
these were going on the roof of a warehouse/office type building I would agree. 
But in a place where it is 4x4 access only, and only in summer, there is a 
scenario where a big ground mount tilted at 80 degrees for off grid will only 
hold 12 x 72-cell panels (2.0 x 1.0m each).  

  Going any bigger than that for square footage of panels and size of mount 
will drive up the cost considerably. The site I am building right now has 12 x 
345W 72-cell panels, and I am looking at a configuration with 12 x 360W panels 
for the next one. The goal is the greatest possible kWh production in December 
and January and additional safety margin for extended periods of cloudy days in 
mid winter. 



  On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 6:58 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

I use 11 watts per square foot as a rule of thumb.  Never wanted 
efficiency, always wanted low $/watt.

From: Eric Kuhnke 
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 6:47 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower, etc) PV 
panels

Anyone have a favorite vendor source for >21% efficient PV panels 
they'd like to share? 

I'm looking at various commodity 60 and 72-cell modules made with 4.95 
to 5.0W high efficiency 156mm monocrystalline cells, but the Sunpower mono 
stuff is still better in STC watts per square foot.

60-cell x 5W = 300W
72-cell x 5W = 360W


Of course, willing to pay somewhat of a price premium

Re: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

[Chuck McCown]

Give me some dims and price point.  I will check another vendor I know.

-Original Message- 
From: Sterling Jacobson

Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 10:00 AM
To: 'af@afmug.com'
Subject: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

Idiots at Codale still have 100 count of our 14" NID box on backorder since 
forever and I'm out of it now.


Anyone have a good supplier that can somewhat quickly ship a good open 
plastic outdoor enclosure around 14" size?


Any of us local Utah guys have a few I can buy and pick up to tie me over?

Re: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

[Chuck McCown]

We might be able to get you some Calix ONT boxes.

-Original Message- 
From: Sterling Jacobson

Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 10:00 AM
To: 'af@afmug.com'
Subject: [AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

Idiots at Codale still have 100 count of our 14" NID box on backorder since 
forever and I'm out of it now.


Anyone have a good supplier that can somewhat quickly ship a good open 
plastic outdoor enclosure around 14" size?


Any of us local Utah guys have a few I can buy and pick up to tie me over?

Re: [AFMUG] i want this

[Chuck McCown]

Some cities us those.  Have not seen in the U.S. but have in Europe.  

From: Steve Jones 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:54 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] i want this

between my house and garage, out to my patio, all around my house
http://www.trenwa.com/component-trench/

Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower, etc) PV panels

[Sean Heskett]

When it snows for 4 weeks straight (not kidding) there's no amount of
panels and batts that can save you.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 7:27 AM  wrote:

> 90 kWh/mo load is a 123 watt load.  (123*24*30.4)
> 123 * 20 = 2460 watts  My rule of thumb for Utah.  Assuming you have 2
> weeks of batts that is all you will need.
>
> You have 4140 watts of panel.  That is 33X.  No doubt it will work.
> Probably produces usable current in moonlight.  Certainly overcast power.
> During a light overcast you get 5% power.  If you are 20x load, you are
> fully powering the load during overcast.
>
> Now, in my case, that extra 1680 watts of panel that I would not have
> installed would have paid for the generator and propane tank.
>
> So, 33X in WA and BC, 20X in Utah no generator.  10X in Utah with
> generator. (and that is cutting it thin).
>
>
> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:34 PM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower,etc) PV
> panels
> I have to respectfully disagree, in WA and BC the mid winter sunlight
> hours are even fewer. But 12 x 345W panels tilted at 80 degrees facing
> directly south will produce far more than enough kWh/mo for a particular
> type of site's calculated needs, in December and January. Battery voltage
> monitoring systems are set up and a portable generator can be brought to
> the site if needed during those two months.
>
> Predicted production is about 247kWh a month in December.
>
> Load, which is all DC, is below 90 kWh/mo.
>
>
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 8:29 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:
>
>> Totally agree with Chuck on this line of thought.  Where we are (NW
>> ColoRADo) there is no amount of panels + batts you can install for Dec &
>> Jan.  Propane generator is the only way to keep an off grid site running.
>> YMMV
>>
>> -Sean
>>
>>
>>
>>
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 5:17 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>
> Remote start propane generator is a much better value for sites like
>>> this.  In the middle of winter have a low voltage relay trigger the
>>> generator.  Run it just long enough to top the batts.  Usually an hour a
>>> day is more than enough.  Store enough propane to get through the worst of
>>> it.
>>>
>>> *From:* Eric Kuhnke
>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, June 20, 2017 6:00 PM
>>> *To:* af@afmug.com
>>> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower,etc)
>>> PV panels
>>>
>>> I care about efficiency because in some cases space is at a premium. If
>>> these were going on the roof of a warehouse/office type building I would
>>> agree. But in a place where it is 4x4 access only, and only in summer,
>>> there is a scenario where a big ground mount tilted at 80 degrees for off
>>> grid will only hold 12 x 72-cell panels (2.0 x 1.0m each).
>>>
>>> Going any bigger than that for square footage of panels and size of
>>> mount will drive up the cost considerably. The site I am building right now
>>> has 12 x 345W 72-cell panels, and I am looking at a configuration with 12 x
>>> 360W panels for the next one. The goal is the greatest possible kWh
>>> production in December and January and additional safety margin for
>>> extended periods of cloudy days in mid winter.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 6:58 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:
>>>
 I use 11 watts per square foot as a rule of thumb.  Never wanted
 efficiency, always wanted low $/watt.

 *From:* Eric Kuhnke
 *Sent:* Monday, June 19, 2017 6:47 PM
 *To:* af@afmug.com
 *Subject:* [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower, etc) PV
 panels

 Anyone have a favorite vendor source for >21% efficient PV panels
 they'd like to share?

 I'm looking at various commodity 60 and 72-cell modules made with 4.95
 to 5.0W high efficiency 156mm monocrystalline cells, but the Sunpower mono
 stuff is still better in STC watts per square foot.

 60-cell x 5W = 300W
 72-cell x 5W = 360W


 Of course, willing to pay somewhat of a price premium

>>>
>>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Simon Westlake]

The problem with metered billing is that it doesn't solve the problem. 
The customer still purchased a game they want to download, or they have 
a 4K TV they want to watch movies on. Most people are just going to look 
for other options if they have to pay every time they try to use a 
device in their household, and even if people are willing to pay, you 
still have to be able to deliver enough service to them to give them the 
speeds they want.


Until there is more spectrum available, I think DPI is a much better 
solution.. you can deprioritize and shape things like game downloads, 
and prioritize/shape their video streaming. I wish there was a better 
option, but I really don't think implementing UBB is a solution to this 
problem. It may give you more money to build up your network a bit, but 
it is poison to most customer's ears, and it won't change their behavior 
that much unless it's extremely painful for them financially.


On 6/21/2017 10:51 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett > wrote:


I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1
oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming
without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1. 
You'll have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for

consumptionor jack the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even
consider stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" >
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?


Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come
out with dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1
for the same purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it
out.  It was amazing to be able to just continue my Halo Wars
right where I left off on my laptop, but it was double the
download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC. 
When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without

overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch
providers.  I'm not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For
now, it has not been a gigantic churn issue for us, but the
future of 4K content will likely hit us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an
option.  I initially bought discs, only to find that even after
ripping them to the hard drive, I have to walk down to the
network closet to insert the disc.  Digitally purchased games can
just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked consoles. 
There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if you have

purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
(say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on
either console, at any time, just not simultaneously. Discs are
now useless to me.  The only way to get this digital license is
to download it from the Internet (or hack the console...not yet
an option).  This has been a big bummer to heavy Xbox users when
they get hit with massive overages, and they usually switch to
Comcast.

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke
> wrote:

This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox,
when many customers start bringing them home...


https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download









--
Simon Westlake
Email: simon@sonar.software
Phone: (702) 447-1247 US / (780) 900-1180 CA
---
Sonar Software Inc
The future of ISP billing and OSS
https://sonar.software

[AFMUG] Fwd: MIMO Grid for MIMOSA C5C

[Colin Stanners]

5ghz grid dish - wouldn't be great up north where we have lots of ice, but
some in the south would find it useful.

-- Forwarded message --
From: 金西荣 
Date: Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:48 AM
Subject: MIMO Grid for MIMOSA C5C
To: cstann...@gmail.com

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Josh Reynolds]

The divide between urban and rural connectivity is widening at a terrifying
pace.

10G is lower than 0.20/Mb in many places now.

- Josh

On Jun 21, 2017 10:51 AM, "Steve Jones"  wrote:

> metered billing.. wave of the future
>
>
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett  wrote:
>
>> I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.
>>
>> Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1
>> oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without
>> complaint.
>> As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll
>> have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for
>> consumptionor jack the price way up.
>>
>> They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even
>> consider stuff like this.
>>
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Jeremy" 
>> To: af@afmug.com
>> Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
>> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>>
>> Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with
>> dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same
>> purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to
>> be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
>> but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB,
>> without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
>> overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm
>> not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a
>> gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit
>> us all pretty hard.
>>
>> My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I
>> initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the
>> hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
>> Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the
>> hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if
>> you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
>> (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either
>> console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to
>> me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the
>> Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big
>> bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and
>> they usually switch to Comcast.
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many
>>> customers start bringing them home...
>>>
>>> https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_wil
>>> l_be_100gb_download
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] i want this

[Robert Andrews]

Animal Heaven!!!

On 06/21/2017 08:54 AM, Steve Jones wrote:

between my house and garage, out to my patio, all around my house
http://www.trenwa.com/component-trench/

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Rory Conaway]

At the same time, our bandwidth costs have dropped, our radios speeds are 
increasing like crazy, and radios costs and cost per Mbps have either dropped.  
I’ve seen prices at low as $.28 per Mbps on 10Gbps circuits and even with local 
loop transport, I’m paying under $1 per Mbps in most places now.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:46 AM
To: af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription 
ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll have 
to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack 
the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider 
stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" >
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with dual 
licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I 
bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to be able to just 
continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop, but it was double 
the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC.  When you 
are providing customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes heavy 
Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm not sure if that is a 
blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a gigantic churn issue for us, 
but the future of 4K content will likely hit us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I 
initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the hard 
drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.  Digitally 
purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked 
consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if you have 
purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles (say at home and 
at work), you can play any of your games on either console, at any time, just 
not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to me.  The only way to get this 
digital license is to download it from the Internet (or hack the console...not 
yet an option).  This has been a big bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get 
hit with massive overages, and they usually switch to Comcast.

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
> wrote:
This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many customers 
start bringing them home...

https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download

Re: [AFMUG] Fwd: St. Louis Telecom Data Center FOR SALE

[Jason McKemie]

Very cool, I would love to, just have to dig up a few million :)

On Wednesday, June 21, 2017, Faisal Imtiaz  wrote:

> Anyone Want to buy a Data Center in St. Louis ?
>
> Faisal Imtiaz
> Snappy Internet & Telecom
> 7266 SW 48 Street
> Miami, FL 33155
> Tel: 305 663 5518 x 232
>
> Help-desk: (305)663-5518 Option 2 or Email: supp...@snappytelecom.net
>
> --
>
> *From: *"Executive Director"  >
> *To: *"FISPA Members List"  >
> *Cc: *br...@blockhawley.com
> 
> *Sent: *Wednesday, June 21, 2017 10:05:52 AM
> *Subject: *[FISPA Members] St. Louis Telecom Data Center FOR SALE
>
> Perhaps a member or someone a member knows would be interested in this
> data center.
>
>
>
> --begin description--
>
>
>
> Previous tenant occupying the facility (Level 3) vacated about a month
> ago due to consolidations from being acquired by CenturyLink.
>
>
>
> Level 3 wanted to exit their lease and in doing so had to agree to forfeit
> all of the data facility infrastructure — so basically my client  was left
> with a 3.5MW redundant turn key data facility at no cost. It has everything
> from cooling, fire suppression, power, backup generators and several fiber
> providers on site, etc.
>
>
>
> Global Crossing and Level 3 spent more than $24mil dollars in building out
> the facility. Since Level 3 has vacated, several parties have flown in and
> have made offers to buy the infrastructure to expand their data centers in
> other areas. These offers will expire towards the end of the month, so we
> have to make a decision on what we will do soon. We had a consultant walk
> through and they advised us not to sell the equipment and to find a local
> buyer, because the installation of the equipment alone is "worth millions
> of dollars".
>
>
>
> The predicament we are currently in, is that we have to make a decision on
> accepting an offer for the infrastructure within the next 3 weeks. Our net
> take away after we would sell the infrastructure and the site separately is
> only $3.5 mil..   We were told that someone local would easily pay that and
> more for the site, so I wanted to run it past you to to see if you could
> help us find a buyer/user. At this time, my client would be more interested
> in selling it, but could also be open for a lease.
>
>
>
> The building is 53,500 sq ft, with half of it warehouse shell leased
> (income generating) to an Ameren UE contractor, and the other half
> built-out as the data facility. We have comparables of data facilities like
> this in other secondary markets that suggest the building is worth more
> than $7mil+, but as you may know this type of property requires a special
> user, as opposed to other forms of real estate.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> *BUZZ Ries*
>
> ASSOCIATE
>
> INDUSTRIAL PROPERTIES
>
>
>
> T  636.534.2925
>
> F  636.534.2997
>
> C  573.216.8347
>
> 16253 Swingley Ridge Road, Suite 150
>
> Chesterfield, MO 63017
>
> www.blockhawley.com
>
>
>
> ___
> Members mailing list
> memb...@fispa.org 
> http://lists.fispa.org/mailman/listinfo/members
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Mark - Myakka Technologies]

Title: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?


Steve,

+1

-- 
Best regards,
 Mark                            mailto:m...@mailmt.com

Myakka Technologies, Inc.
www.MyakkaTech.com

Proud Sponsor of the Myakka City Relay For Life
http://www.RelayForLife.org/MyakkaCityFL

Please Donate at Please Donate at http://www.myakkatech.com/RFL.html
--

Wednesday, June 21, 2017, 11:51:26 AM, you wrote:






metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett  wrote:




I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.

Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for consumptionor jack the price way up.

They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider stuff like this.



-- Original Message --
From: "Jeremy" 
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?





Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop, but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB, without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit us all pretty hard.

My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.  Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and they usually switch to Comcast.

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke  wrote:




This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many customers start bringing them home...

https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_will_be_100gb_download

[AFMUG] Utah Local NID Enclosure?

[Sterling Jacobson]

Idiots at Codale still have 100 count of our 14" NID box on backorder since 
forever and I'm out of it now.

Anyone have a good supplier that can somewhat quickly ship a good open plastic 
outdoor enclosure around 14" size?

Any of us local Utah guys have a few I can buy and pick up to tie me over?

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Steve Jones]

metered billing.. wave of the future



On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM, Adam Moffett  wrote:

> I read some scary stuff the other day along a similar vein.
>
> Basically if you're selling 25mbps then you'll need a 4:1 oversubscription
> ratio to support peak hours hi def streaming without complaint.
> As adoption of 4K video increases, that ratio will approach 1:1.  You'll
> have to either start supplying 100meg, or start billing for
> consumptionor jack the price way up.
>
> They were looking only at streaming video trends, and didn't even consider
> stuff like this.
>
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Jeremy" 
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 6/21/2017 1:03:09 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?
>
> Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with
> dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same
> purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to
> be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
> but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB,
> without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
> overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm
> not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a
> gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit
> us all pretty hard.
>
> My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I
> initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the
> hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
> Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the
> hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if
> you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
> (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either
> console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to
> me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the
> Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big
> bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and
> they usually switch to Comcast.
>
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
> wrote:
>
>> This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many
>> customers start bringing them home...
>>
>> https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_wil
>> l_be_100gb_download
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[chuck]

Duct is tough.  You could use it as a tow rope.  Just cut a slot on the side of 
the block, skip the duct into the slot and tie a piece of stainless wire around 
the block so the duct cannot come out of the slot if the block comes to rest 
with the slot up.  We used tape to keep the blocks from sliding up and down the 
duct when placing it.  Once on the bottom, the duct floats to the top of the 
cavity in the cinder block.  

From: Steve Jones 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:51 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

out of curiousity, how would you drop the duct in with the cinderblocks? if its 
40 feet deep, that would be 4 or more blocks suspended at any given time, would 
you just tie rope between them to keep the strain off the duct, or is the duct 
alone durable enough to handle it?

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM,  wrote:

  Yeah, even with a large count fiber it will still float.  If you can get 
those half cinder blocks and cut a slot in the side they work pretty good.  I 
calculated how much additional weight you needed once but that was many years 
ago.  

  From: Adam Moffett 
  Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:40 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

  Is that all it takes?  Weights so it doesn't float?


  -- Original Message --
  From: ch...@wbmfg.com
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: 6/21/2017 10:38:54 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

1.25” is fine, but it will float.  On a water crossing you will need cinder 
blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down.  Chop a hole out of one of the 
sides large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the cavities.  

From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most 
would be sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 per ft 
for 1.25", ballpark numbers.  
8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable instead 
of "normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I would just 
direct bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere possible to save 
money. 
9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in the 
$70 range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40.
9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard to 
make strong, thin, concrete sections. 

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones  
wrote:

  adding to list:
  7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
  8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
  9. good price vendor for handholes
  9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get 
concrete at 80 bucks a yard

  On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones  
wrote:

A few questions, this being a family estate property that was 
subdivided into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a 
platt map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This 
is about interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run 
past all the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the 
longest being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between 
those 3 being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need 
some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit 
to drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade 
off is for DNR stocking.
2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the 
duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service 
database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency 
around here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too 
hard

In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. 
This is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history 
of forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this 
duct?

assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed 
questions on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[chuck]

Yes, just need to strive to put the slot down when installing or wrap the block 
with some stainless wire.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:48 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

The slot is so you can slip it onto the duct without feeding it through each 
block?


-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 10:46:33 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

  Yeah, even with a large count fiber it will still float.  If you can get 
those half cinder blocks and cut a slot in the side they work pretty good.  I 
calculated how much additional weight you needed once but that was many years 
ago.  

  From: Adam Moffett 
  Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:40 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

  Is that all it takes?  Weights so it doesn't float?


  -- Original Message --
  From: ch...@wbmfg.com
  To: af@afmug.com
  Sent: 6/21/2017 10:38:54 AM
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

1.25” is fine, but it will float.  On a water crossing you will need cinder 
blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down.  Chop a hole out of one of the 
sides large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the cavities.  

From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most 
would be sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 per ft 
for 1.25", ballpark numbers.  
8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable instead 
of "normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I would just 
direct bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere possible to save 
money. 
9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in the 
$70 range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40.
9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard to 
make strong, thin, concrete sections. 

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones  
wrote:

  adding to list:
  7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
  8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
  9. good price vendor for handholes
  9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get 
concrete at 80 bucks a yard

  On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones  
wrote:

A few questions, this being a family estate property that was 
subdivided into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a 
platt map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This 
is about interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run 
past all the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the 
longest being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between 
those 3 being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need 
some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit 
to drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade 
off is for DNR stocking.
2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the 
duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service 
database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency 
around here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too 
hard

In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. 
This is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history 
of forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this 
duct?

assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed 
questions on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Steve Jones]

out of curiousity, how would you drop the duct in with the cinderblocks? if
its 40 feet deep, that would be 4 or more blocks suspended at any given
time, would you just tie rope between them to keep the strain off the duct,
or is the duct alone durable enough to handle it?

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 9:46 AM,  wrote:

> Yeah, even with a large count fiber it will still float.  If you can get
> those half cinder blocks and cut a slot in the side they work pretty good.
> I calculated how much additional weight you needed once but that was many
> years ago.
>
> *From:* Adam Moffett
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:40 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network
>
> Is that all it takes?  Weights so it doesn't float?
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: ch...@wbmfg.com
> To: af@afmug.com
> Sent: 6/21/2017 10:38:54 AM
> Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network
>
>
> 1.25” is fine, but it will float.  On a water crossing you will need
> cinder blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down.  Chop a hole out of one
> of the sides large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the cavities.
>
> *From:* Chris Fabien
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM
> *To:* af@afmug.com
> *Subject:* Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network
>
> 7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most
> would be sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 per
> ft for 1.25", ballpark numbers.
> 8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable instead
> of "normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I would just
> direct bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere possible to save
> money.
> 9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in the
> $70 range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40.
> 9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard to
> make strong, thin, concrete sections.
>
> On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> adding to list:
>> 7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
>> 8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
>> 9. good price vendor for handholes
>> 9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get
>> concrete at 80 bucks a yard
>>
>> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided
>>> into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt
>>> map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is
>>> about interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To
>>> run past all the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4
>>> "fingers" the longest being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest
>>> distance between those 3 being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be
>>> underwater.
>>> This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need
>>> some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
>>> Here are some questions:
>>> 1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
>>> 1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to
>>> drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the
>>> trade off is for DNR stocking.
>>> 2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
>>> 3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
>>> 4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the
>>> duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
>>> 5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service
>>> database
>>> 5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency
>>> around here)
>>> 6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard
>>>
>>> In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This
>>> is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of
>>> forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this
>>> duct?
>>>
>>> assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed
>>> questions on tech specs
>>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Adam Moffett]

The slot is so you can slip it onto the duct without feeding it through 
each block?



-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 10:46:33 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

Yeah, even with a large count fiber it will still float.  If you can 
get those half cinder blocks and cut a slot in the side they work 
pretty good.  I calculated how much additional weight you needed once 
but that was many years ago.


From:Adam Moffett
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:40 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

Is that all it takes?  Weights so it doesn't float?


-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 10:38:54 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

1.25” is fine, but it will float.  On a water crossing you will need 
cinder blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down.  Chop a hole out of 
one of the sides large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the 
cavities.


From:Chris Fabien
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most 
would be sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 
per ft for 1.25", ballpark numbers.
8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable 
instead of "normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this 
I would just direct bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow 
everywhere possible to save money.
9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in 
the $70 range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40.
9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard 
to make strong, thin, concrete sections.


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones 
 wrote:

adding to list:
7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
9. good price vendor for handholes
9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get 
concrete at 80 bucks a yard


On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones 
 wrote:
A few questions, this being a family estate property that was 
subdivided into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't 
looked at a platt map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, 
so there is that. This is about interconnecting and somewhere in the 
mix bringing in interwebs. To run past all the current lots is 
roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest being 3300 
feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 
being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they 
need some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero 
about this.

Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater 
fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy 
permit to drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't 
know what the trade off is for DNR stocking.

2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes 
the duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes 
hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service 
database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating 
agency around here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too 
hard


In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. 
This is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been 
a history of forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what 
happens with this duct?


assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed 
questions on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[chuck]

Yeah, even with a large count fiber it will still float.  If you can get those 
half cinder blocks and cut a slot in the side they work pretty good.  I 
calculated how much additional weight you needed once but that was many years 
ago.  

From: Adam Moffett 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:40 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

Is that all it takes?  Weights so it doesn't float?


-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 10:38:54 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

  1.25” is fine, but it will float.  On a water crossing you will need cinder 
blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down.  Chop a hole out of one of the 
sides large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the cavities.  

  From: Chris Fabien 
  Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

  7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most would 
be sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 per ft for 
1.25", ballpark numbers.  
  8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable instead of 
"normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I would just direct 
bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere possible to save money. 
  9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in the $70 
range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40.
  9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard to make 
strong, thin, concrete sections. 

  On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones  
wrote:

adding to list:
7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
9. good price vendor for handholes
9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get concrete 
at 80 bucks a yard

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones  
wrote:

  A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided 
into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt map 
yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is about 
interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run past all 
the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest 
being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 
being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
  This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need 
some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
  Here are some questions:
  1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
  1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to 
drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade 
off is for DNR stocking.
  2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
  3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
  4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the 
duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
  5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service 
database
  5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency 
around here)
  6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard

  In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This 
is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of 
forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this duct?

  assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed 
questions on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[chuck]

No, probably 2 feet under would solve it too.  Just slightly buoyant.  

From: Mike Hammett 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 8:40 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

If you bored say 20 or 30 feet under the floor, would you still have floating 
issues?




-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions

Midwest Internet Exchange

The Brothers WISP








From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:38:54 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network


1.25” is fine, but it will float.  On a water crossing you will need cinder 
blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down.  Chop a hole out of one of the 
sides large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the cavities.  

From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most would be 
sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 per ft for 1.25", 
ballpark numbers.  
8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable instead of 
"normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I would just direct 
bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere possible to save money. 
9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in the $70 
range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40.
9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard to make 
strong, thin, concrete sections. 

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones  wrote:

  adding to list:
  7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
  8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
  9. good price vendor for handholes
  9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get concrete at 
80 bucks a yard

  On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones  
wrote:

A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided 
into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt map 
yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is about 
interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run past all 
the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest 
being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 
being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need 
some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to 
drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade 
off is for DNR stocking.
2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the 
duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency 
around here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard

In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This is 
all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of forced 
incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this duct?

assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions 
on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Mike Hammett]

If you bored say 20 or 30 feet under the floor, would you still have floating 
issues? 




- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: ch...@wbmfg.com 
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 9:38:54 AM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network 




1.25” is fine, but it will float. On a water crossing you will need cinder 
blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down. Chop a hole out of one of the sides 
large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the cavities. 




From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM 
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network 


7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most would be 
sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 per ft for 1.25", 
ballpark numbers. 
8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable instead of 
"normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I would just direct 
bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere possible to save money. 
9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in the $70 
range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40. 
9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard to make 
strong, thin, concrete sections. 


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 




adding to list: 
7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct 
8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor 
9. good price vendor for handholes 
9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get concrete at 
80 bucks a yard 




On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 




A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided into 
different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt map yet to 
see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is about 
interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run past all 
the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest 
being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 
being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater. 
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need some 
sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this. 
Here are some questions: 
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber. 
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to drop 
fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade off is 
for DNR stocking. 
2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot? 
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit? 
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the duct 
accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands 
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database 
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency around 
here) 
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard 

In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This is all 
unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of forced 
incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this duct? 

assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions on 
tech specs 

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Adam Moffett]

Is that all it takes?  Weights so it doesn't float?


-- Original Message --
From: ch...@wbmfg.com
To: af@afmug.com
Sent: 6/21/2017 10:38:54 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

1.25” is fine, but it will float.  On a water crossing you will need 
cinder blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down.  Chop a hole out of 
one of the sides large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the 
cavities.


From:Chris Fabien
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM
To:af@afmug.com
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most 
would be sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 
per ft for 1.25", ballpark numbers.
8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable 
instead of "normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I 
would just direct bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere 
possible to save money.
9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in 
the $70 range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40.
9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard 
to make strong, thin, concrete sections.


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones 
 wrote:

adding to list:
7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
9. good price vendor for handholes
9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get 
concrete at 80 bucks a yard


On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones 
 wrote:
A few questions, this being a family estate property that was 
subdivided into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't 
looked at a platt map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so 
there is that. This is about interconnecting and somewhere in the mix 
bringing in interwebs. To run past all the current lots is roughly 
8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest being 3300 feet, 
passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 being 1400 
feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they 
need some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero 
about this.

Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater 
fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit 
to drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what 
the trade off is for DNR stocking.

2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes 
the duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes 
hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service 
database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency 
around here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too 
hard


In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. 
This is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a 
history of forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what 
happens with this duct?


assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed 
questions on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[chuck]

1.25” is fine, but it will float.  On a water crossing you will need cinder 
blocks every 10 feet or so to hold it down.  Chop a hole out of one of the 
sides large enough so the duct can slip inside one of the cavities.  

From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 7:47 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most would be 
sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 per ft for 1.25", 
ballpark numbers.  
8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable instead of 
"normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I would just direct 
bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere possible to save money. 
9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in the $70 
range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40.
9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard to make 
strong, thin, concrete sections. 

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones  wrote:

  adding to list:
  7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
  8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
  9. good price vendor for handholes
  9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get concrete at 
80 bucks a yard

  On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones  
wrote:

A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided 
into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt map 
yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is about 
interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run past all 
the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest 
being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 
being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need 
some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to 
drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade 
off is for DNR stocking.
2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the 
duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency 
around here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard

In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This is 
all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of forced 
incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this duct?

assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions 
on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] Contract clause needed for conduit ownership

[chuck]

I just posted the easement language.  You could just get an easement and make 
sure to tag all your stuff.  

From: Paul McCall 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:46 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] Contract clause needed for conduit ownership

We are putting in conduit completely throughout our business park (13 buildings 
with 4 to 10 units per building) and running fiber all through them.  We have 
to do 10 missile bores, and a couple directional bores.   A big investment.  I 
am looking for some legal wording stating that my company owns the conduit 
infrastructure and the fiber we are putting in.

 

Anybody have something they can share that I can use as a framework for this?

 

Thanks in advance!

 

Paul

 

Paul McCall, President

PDMNet, Inc. / Florida Broadband, Inc.

658 Old Dixie Highway

Vero Beach, FL 32962

772-564-6800  

pa...@pdmnet.net

www.pdmnet.com

www.floridabroadband.com

 

 

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[chuck]

Easement Language:
LIMITED UTILITY LINE EASEMENT

AND RIGHT OF WAY



Telecom Company and Land Owner with addresses at 
__  property owner (“Owner”) make this Limited Utility Line 
Easement and Right of Way (the “Agreement”) this _ day of June, 2017.



In exchange for the promises and performances described below, 
which Telecom and Owner hereby acknowledge to be good and sufficient 
consideration for the making of this Agreement, Telecom and Owner agree as 
follows.



1.  Owner hereby grants to Telecom a non exclusive easement and right of 
way across the property of Owner.  This easement and right of way hereafter 
shall be called the “ROW.”  A legal description of the ROW is attached as 
exhibit A and incorporated by reference into this Agreement



2. The ROW shall be for the purpose of installing a fiber optic 
telecommunications line with associated conduit and handholes (the 
“Facilities”)  Owner hereby authorizes Telecom to install the Facilities and to 
do the other acts, described below, that may be necessary to service, enhance, 
improve, alter, maintain, and/or repair the Facilities.  Owner understands and 
agrees that the placement of the Facilities, as well as the need for service, 
enhancement, improvement, alteration, maintenance, and/or repair of the 
Facilities, are matters to be decided solely by Telecom, and that Owner shall 
have no right to influence or interfere with any such decision, provided, 
however, that in the process of making any such decision Telecom shall remain 
subject to any applicable rules and regulations of the (State) Public Service 
Commission. Owner restricts and forbids the building of any additional 
Facilities with out obtaining written permission from Owner.  Owner hereby 
represents, warrants, and guarantees to Telecom that Owner is the exclusive 
owner of the property for the purpose of granting the ROW as described in this 
Agreement.



3. Owner hereby authorizes Telecom to enter on the property for the 
purpose of installing, servicing, enhancing, improving, altering, maintaining, 
and/or repairing the Facilities.  Telecom may enter on to the property at any 
reasonable time in order to install, service, enhance, improve, alter, 
maintain, and/or repair the Facilities.  Telecom may enter on to the property 
at any time in order to make emergency repairs to the Facilities.



4. The ROW shall run with the property (now titled in or otherwise 
owned by the Owner) in perpetuity, and at a minimum shall be a covenant running 
with the property.  Owner agrees to execute a recordable form of this Agreement 
for the purpose of giving record notice of the ROW by filing the same with the 
appropriate county recorder's office.  This Agreement shall remain binding upon 
and inure to the benefit of any and all successors, assigns, heirs, agents, 
and/or employees of the Owner. The ROW is transferable by Telecom to its 
successors, assigns, heirs, agents, and/or employees. Owner agrees to negotiate 
with the successors, assigns, and/or heirs of Telecom to formulate a new ROW 
agreement.



5. Telecom stipulates that it shall do a workmanlike job in 
connection with the installation of the Facilities, and that it shall clean-up 
the ROW at the conclusion of this work, all work and clean-up to be consistent 
with any applicable rules and regulations of the (State) Public Service 
Commission.Telecom hereby represents, warrants, and guarantees to Owner 
that failure to comply and perform according to the covenants stipulated in 
this agreement terminates and voids the ROW.










Joe Walsh

CEO/General Manager

Telecom










Steve Tyler

Registered Agent

Owner

Grantor of ROW 




Then you must include attachment A which has the legal description of the ROW 
running line.  You will probably have to have a surveyor create that for you.
I do my own but I have had training.  





From: Chris Fabien 
Sent: Wednesday, June 21, 2017 6:09 AM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

1.  You want innerduct  buried in the soil several feet under the water. Thia 
would be done by directional boring. 300ft is no problem. Probably "should" 
require erosion/sedmentation control permit and possibly wetlands study. But 
you can get away with about anything in a private location. 

2. Handhole anywhere you want to splice.

3. Always needs a locate ticket called in to 

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[chuck]

Handholes are made out of polymer concrete.
You have to have extremely dry sand.  Lime, very light weight small aggregate.
You mix it all with polyester resin, like the stuff you make a boat out of.  

Not cheap nor easy.  I made custom handhole lids for a time with our logo on 
them.  

From: Steve Jones 
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 10:32 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

adding to list:
7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
9. good price vendor for handholes
9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get concrete at 
80 bucks a yard

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones  wrote:

  A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided into 
different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt map yet to 
see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is about 
interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run past all 
the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest 
being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 
being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
  This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need some 
sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
  Here are some questions:
  1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
  1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to drop 
fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade off is 
for DNR stocking.
  2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
  3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
  4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the duct 
accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
  5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database
  5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency around 
here)
  6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard

  In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This is 
all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of forced 
incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this duct?

  assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions on 
tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower, etc) PV panels

[chuck]

90 kWh/mo load is a 123 watt load.  (123*24*30.4)
123 * 20 = 2460 watts  My rule of thumb for Utah.  Assuming you have 2 weeks of 
batts that is all you will need.

You have 4140 watts of panel.  That is 33X.  No doubt it will work.  Probably 
produces usable current in moonlight.  Certainly overcast power.
During a light overcast you get 5% power.  If you are 20x load, you are fully 
powering the load during overcast.

Now, in my case, that extra 1680 watts of panel that I would not have installed 
would have paid for the generator and propane tank.  

So, 33X in WA and BC, 20X in Utah no generator.  10X in Utah with generator. 
(and that is cutting it thin).


From: Eric Kuhnke 
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:34 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower,etc) PV panels

I have to respectfully disagree, in WA and BC the mid winter sunlight hours are 
even fewer. But 12 x 345W panels tilted at 80 degrees facing directly south 
will produce far more than enough kWh/mo for a particular type of site's 
calculated needs, in December and January. Battery voltage monitoring systems 
are set up and a portable generator can be brought to the site if needed during 
those two months.   

Predicted production is about 247kWh a month in December.

Load, which is all DC, is below 90 kWh/mo.



On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 8:29 PM, Sean Heskett  wrote:

  Totally agree with Chuck on this line of thought.  Where we are (NW ColoRADo) 
there is no amount of panels + batts you can install for Dec & Jan.  Propane 
generator is the only way to keep an off grid site running.  YMMV

  -Sean



  On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 5:17 PM Chuck McCown  wrote:

Remote start propane generator is a much better value for sites like this.  
In the middle of winter have a low voltage relay trigger the generator.  Run it 
just long enough to top the batts.  Usually an hour a day is more than enough.  
Store enough propane to get through the worst of it.  

From: Eric Kuhnke 
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 6:00 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower,etc) PV 
panels

I care about efficiency because in some cases space is at a premium. If 
these were going on the roof of a warehouse/office type building I would agree. 
But in a place where it is 4x4 access only, and only in summer, there is a 
scenario where a big ground mount tilted at 80 degrees for off grid will only 
hold 12 x 72-cell panels (2.0 x 1.0m each).  

Going any bigger than that for square footage of panels and size of mount 
will drive up the cost considerably. The site I am building right now has 12 x 
345W 72-cell panels, and I am looking at a configuration with 12 x 360W panels 
for the next one. The goal is the greatest possible kWh production in December 
and January and additional safety margin for extended periods of cloudy days in 
mid winter. 



On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 6:58 AM, Chuck McCown  wrote:

  I use 11 watts per square foot as a rule of thumb.  Never wanted 
efficiency, always wanted low $/watt.

  From: Eric Kuhnke 
  Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 6:47 PM
  To: af@afmug.com 
  Subject: [AFMUG] Vendor for super high efficiency (Sunpower, etc) PV 
panels

  Anyone have a favorite vendor source for >21% efficient PV panels they'd 
like to share? 

  I'm looking at various commodity 60 and 72-cell modules made with 4.95 to 
5.0W high efficiency 156mm monocrystalline cells, but the Sunpower mono stuff 
is still better in STC watts per square foot.

  60-cell x 5W = 300W
  72-cell x 5W = 360W


  Of course, willing to pay somewhat of a price premium

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[chuck]

Normally, when a parcel is subdivided, a public utility easement (PUE) is 
recorded around the edge of all lots.  
1.Normal duct, not fiber.
1a. I have never had a problem.  But I have never asked permission.
2. One hand hole per two homes, on the property line between the two.  
3. No, your easement/ROW will follow your running line and is expected to cross 
others.  Call before you dig.
4. An easement is like a mini deed to the property.  It outlines that you can 
get on the ROW 24/7/365 to do what you need to do.  It is a “perpetual 
easement” and it “runs with the land” so it is there forever.
5. You call the administrators and get an account.  
5a.You or whoever you send the calls to does the locates.  It is up to you, 
the service just forwards the requests.
6. Sounds like you have asked most of the important questions.  Just do it!


From: Steve Jones 
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 9:04 PM
To: af@afmug.com 
Subject: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided into 
different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt map yet to 
see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is about 
interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run past all 
the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest 
being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 
being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need some 
sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to drop 
fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade off is 
for DNR stocking.
2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the duct 
accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency around 
here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard

In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This is all 
unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of forced 
incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this duct?

assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions on 
tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Chris Fabien]

7. You don't need that large of duct for this, 1" or 1.25" at the most
would be sufficient. Expect to pay around 0.25 per ft for 1" and 0.35 per
ft for 1.25", ballpark numbers.
8. If it's going to all be in conduit, I would use 12F drop cable instead
of "normal" loose tube cable. Actually on a project like this I would just
direct bury the 12F drop with a small drop plow everywhere possible to save
money.
9. We get some nice 17x30x15" HDPE Carson handholes from Milennium in the
$70 range. I think they have a smaller size yet for around $40.
9a. NOPE... I actually tried this, it was a dismal failure. It's hard to
make strong, thin, concrete sections.

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:32 AM, Steve Jones 
wrote:

> adding to list:
> 7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct
> 8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor
> 9. good price vendor for handholes
> 9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get concrete
> at 80 bucks a yard
>
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones 
> wrote:
>
>> A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided
>> into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt
>> map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is
>> about interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To
>> run past all the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4
>> "fingers" the longest being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest
>> distance between those 3 being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be
>> underwater.
>> This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need
>> some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
>> Here are some questions:
>> 1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
>> 1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to
>> drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the
>> trade off is for DNR stocking.
>> 2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
>> 3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
>> 4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the
>> duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
>> 5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service
>> database
>> 5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency
>> around here)
>> 6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard
>>
>> In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This
>> is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of
>> forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this
>> duct?
>>
>> assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed
>> questions on tech specs
>>
>
>

Re: [AFMUG] Ready for the Xbox one X and 100GB games?

[Kurt Fankhauser]

this is why you need to build you networks to handle 50mbps and 100mbps
plans to customers and then charge thme for this "special gamer package" a
nice hefty price. If they have no other options they WILL pay for it...
They crave it...

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 1:03 AM, Jeremy  wrote:

> Yeah, this sucks for us.  Even worse, many of these games come out with
> dual licenses so that you can play on Windows 10 or XB1 for the same
> purchase.  I bought a couple games and checked it out.  It was amazing to
> be able to just continue my Halo Wars right where I left off on my laptop,
> but it was double the download size.  This makes Forza potentially 200GB,
> without DLC.  When you are providing customers 300-500GB per month without
> overages it makes heavy Xbox customers very quickly switch providers.  I'm
> not sure if that is a blessing or a curse.  For now, it has not been a
> gigantic churn issue for us, but the future of 4K content will likely hit
> us all pretty hard.
>
> My main issue with this is that purchasing a disc is not an option.  I
> initially bought discs, only to find that even after ripping them to the
> hard drive, I have to walk down to the network closet to insert the disc.
> Digitally purchased games can just be loaded from a menu, like all of the
> hacked consoles.  There is no option to 'upgrade' to a digital license if
> you have purchased a disc.  Also, if you own multiple Xbox One consoles
> (say at home and at work), you can play any of your games on either
> console, at any time, just not simultaneously.  Discs are now useless to
> me.  The only way to get this digital license is to download it from the
> Internet (or hack the console...not yet an option).  This has been a big
> bummer to heavy Xbox users when they get hit with massive overages, and
> they usually switch to Comcast.
>
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:19 PM, Eric Kuhnke 
> wrote:
>
>> This will be the new normal with the next generation Xbox, when many
>> customers start bringing them home...
>>
>> https://m.hardocp.com/news/2017/06/18/forza_motorsport_7_wil
>> l_be_100gb_download
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Mike Hammett]

Millennium is in the south suburbs of Chicago and great to work with. I've 
attached vCards of two of my contacts there. Just ask Jeremy for copies of the 
last few quotes I've gotten. 



- 
Mike Hammett 
Intelligent Computing Solutions 

Midwest Internet Exchange 

The Brothers WISP 




- Original Message -

From: "Steve Jones"  
To: af@afmug.com 
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 11:32:32 PM 
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network 



adding to list: 
7: 2-4 in duct, good price vendors, preference is mutilple innerduct 
8. appropriate general purpose fiber for this type of project vendor 
9. good price vendor for handholes 
9a. would it just be cheaper to form a bunch of handholes and get concrete at 
80 bucks a yard 


On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:03 PM, Steve Jones < thatoneguyst...@gmail.com > 
wrote: 




A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided into 
different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt map yet to 
see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is about 
interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To run past all 
the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest 
being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 
being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater. 
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need some 
sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this. 
Here are some questions: 
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber. 
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to drop 
fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the trade off is 
for DNR stocking. 
2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot? 
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit? 
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the duct 
accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands 
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database 
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency around 
here) 
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard 


In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This is all 
unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of forced 
incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this duct? 


assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions on 
tech specs 

[AFMUG] Contract clause needed for conduit ownership

[Paul McCall]

We are putting in conduit completely throughout our business park (13 buildings 
with 4 to 10 units per building) and running fiber all through them.  We have 
to do 10 missile bores, and a couple directional bores.   A big investment.  I 
am looking for some legal wording stating that my company owns the conduit 
infrastructure and the fiber we are putting in.

Anybody have something they can share that I can use as a framework for this?

Thanks in advance!

Paul

Paul McCall, President
PDMNet, Inc. / Florida Broadband, Inc.
658 Old Dixie Highway
Vero Beach, FL 32962
772-564-6800
pa...@pdmnet.net
www.pdmnet.com
www.floridabroadband.com

Re: [AFMUG] Unifi USG VPN

[Timothy Steele]

Wich one was it? I thought the final had it..

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017, 12:30 AM Brett A Mansfield <
li...@silverlakeinternet.com> wrote:

> Found it. It just wasn't clear in the release notes.
>
>
> Thank you,
> Brett A Mansfield
>
> On Jun 20, 2017, at 9:09 PM, Brett A Mansfield <
> li...@silverlakeinternet.com> wrote:
>
> I'm just fine with beta when it comes to UBNT. I've rarely had issues with
> them.
>
> I don't see a beta version that has this feature though.
>
> Thank you,
> Brett A Mansfield
>
> On Jun 20, 2017, at 9:01 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>
> GA is for squares. For over 5 years I've seen faster feature releases AND
> bug fixes on beta. This is commonly the case on any modern software release.
>
> I guess that's fine if you're okay waiting 6 months to a year for feature
> releases, but anymore most IT moves faster than that and it will cost you
> competitive advantage in the market.
>
> When nervous, push to a pre-prod controller first.
>
> - Josh
>
> On Jun 20, 2017 9:56 PM, "Brett A Mansfield" 
> wrote:
>
>> Which version of controller? I'm using the latest GA release and it's not
>> built in.
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Brett A Mansfield
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2017, at 8:34 PM, Josh Reynolds  wrote:
>>
>> It's built in to the controller software.
>>
>> - Josh
>>
>> On Jun 20, 2017 9:31 PM, "Brett A Mansfield" <
>> li...@silverlakeinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>>> The downside is that it requires radius. It would be nice if it had its
>>> own built-in authentication. At least on the pro model. I don't want to
>>> setup a radius server for small businesses to use VPN. If I have to setup
>>> radius and there is no Domain controller, it's just easier and sometimes
>>> cheaper to forward the ports to a Mac mini and have it serve strictly as
>>> the VPN server.
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>> Brett A Mansfield
>>>
>>> > On Jun 20, 2017, at 9:05 AM, Timothy Steele 
>>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Anyone get remote user VPN working with full unifi setups and care to
>>> share? I need to login as a local user and it looks like it finally
>>> supports it in the GUI..
>>> >
>>> >
>>>
>>

Re: [AFMUG] FirstNet

[Lewis Bergman]

That depends if you mean FirstNet the AT awardee or FirstNet the set
aside frequency band for public safety. No on the first, very few on the
second. I think there are 3 public safety systems in the US constructed. We
did the easy part, cold install of the core and some nodes. I think it took
Ericsson a month to get it to work.

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 10:40 PM Josh Luthman 
wrote:

> Bunch of license links in Ohio.  I know some operators using their Rad
> stuff on towers to provide service.
>
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340 <(937)%20552-2340>
> Direct: 937-552-2343 <(937)%20552-2343>
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 11:38 PM, Mitch Koep  wrote:
>
>> LOL
>>
>> Is there a "FirstNet" built anywhere yet?
>>
>> Mitch
>>
>> On 6/20/2017 3:03 PM, Lewis Bergman wrote:
>>
>> I doubt anyone cares, but FirstNet is getting closer:
>> LEX F10 FIRSTNET-READY MISSION CRITICAL LTE DEVICE
>>
>> The new LEX F10 is an AT LTE device that operates on the
>> FirstNet network.
>>
>>
>>
>

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Adam Moffett]

We just did 2.7 miles for 10 peoplebut those 10 were willing to pay 
something substantial up front.

It's no problem if they're paying for it.



-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Jones" 
To: "af@afmug.com" 
Sent: 6/21/2017 2:12:53 AM
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network


I guess I should have run a 10
10. is anybody able to justify 8050+ feet for 8 customers ROI on fiber
10a. this is a testbed, unrelated to the WISP I work for other than I 
plan on backhauling into it for the boss, whether he owns the 
customers, I own the customers or the subdivision owns the customers. 
so theres no build out other than the radio link for the WISP, which is 
close enough for af24, so its a WISP easy, even if we do the "last mile 
(50-100 feet)"


On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:15 AM, Adam Moffett  
wrote:


1) Never done it, but I'm pretty sure you bury conduit under the 
bottom.

1a) Dunno.
2) You put a handhole wherever you'll need to pull, or anywhere you'll 
need to put a splice enclosure.
3) Depends who wrote it.  I think you'd have to read the terms of the 
ROW/easement to know for sure.  I had to cross a natural gas 
pipeline.they allow it, but their people had to be present for the 
digging and they had some rules about marking the fiber.  Railroad 
easements are notoriously difficult to cross.
4) An easement gives you permanent rights to something, and yes it 
stays with the property.  I'm not sure if it ever goes away.
5) Dunno.  Call the agency and ask them, or check their website.  With 
UFPO you can make the initial request on their website.

5a) Someone pays?  Not around here.
6.  pretty long.  Do it anyway.  Wireless won't meet demand forever 
and you'll need to start getting into fiber to stay relevant in the 
long term.
7.  Google it.but if it's just for these 8 houses why not 1"?  You 
won't need a very big cable.
8.  I'm not clear if you're looking for a cable or a vendor.  For 
underground you want loose tube fiber.  I just got a quote this very 
day for a 12 fiber loose tube for $0.31/foot.  Something like that 
might be fine.  Add a single THHN to use as a locator.  I'm willing to 
bet you can do whatever they want with just that cable and some clever 
splicing.

9.  Google it.
9a. I doubt it.  Small Poly handholes (not traffic rated) are like 
$40.  "Small" is still big enough for a drop cable splice enclosure.  
For traffic rated you're spending a few hundred per boxI'm still 
not sure it's worth your labor time to make forms at that price, maybe 
if you're really awesome at building forms.




-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Jones" 
To: "af@afmug.com" 
Sent: 6/20/2017 11:04:12 PM
Subject: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

A few questions, this being a family estate property that was 
subdivided into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't 
looked at a platt map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so 
there is that. This is about interconnecting and somewhere in the mix 
bringing in interwebs. To run past all the current lots is roughly 
8050 feet. There would be 4 "fingers" the longest being 3300 feet, 
passing 3 houses with the longest distance between those 3 being 1400 
feet, 300 feet of this would be underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they 
need some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero 
about this.

Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater 
fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit 
to drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what 
the trade off is for DNR stocking.

2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes 
the duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes 
hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service 
database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency 
around here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too 
hard


In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. 
This is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a 
history of forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what 
happens with this duct?


assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed 
questions on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Chris Fabien]

1.  You want innerduct  buried in the soil several feet under the water.
Thia would be done by directional boring. 300ft is no problem. Probably
"should" require erosion/sedmentation control permit and possibly wetlands
study. But you can get away with about anything in a private location.

2. Handhole anywhere you want to splice.

3. Always needs a locate ticket called in to state agency. Occasionally
needs a permit/contract usually only for high profile stuff like
transmisson pipelines.

4. If you are going to own this duct and cable then you want a solid
easement for occupancy and future access. We try to get a blanket easement
so we dont have to worry about our path surveyors etc.

5. Youll need to become a utility member of the locate system.

5a. Usic is a locate contractor hired by some utilities. The state agency
just takes calls and sends out tickets. The utility is responsible for
marking the lines or paying someone to do it.

6. It IS hard... too hard is up to you to determine. This project should
require a very significant contribution from the property owners to make
financial sense.

On Jun 20, 2017 11:04 PM, "Steve Jones"  wrote:

A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided
into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt
map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is
about interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To
run past all the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4
"fingers" the longest being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest
distance between those 3 being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be
underwater.
This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need
some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
Here are some questions:
1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to
drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the
trade off is for DNR stocking.
2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the
duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database
5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency
around here)
6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard

In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This is
all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of
forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this
duct?

assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions
on tech specs

Re: [AFMUG] OT..Hey Rory...we have a cold front

[Rory Conaway]

Wow, made it through our game, nobody passed out.  On the hand, I beaned 3 guys 
in a row in the 6th inning which was a clue it was time to call it a night.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf Of Jaime Solorza
Sent: Tuesday, June 20, 2017 8:19 PM
To: Animal Farm
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT..Hey Rory...we have a cold front

http://www.elpasoproud.com/news/father-and-son-hikers-found-dead-near-carlsbad-caverns/746506701
Jaime Solorza

On Jun 20, 2017 8:33 AM, "Jaime Solorza" 
> wrote:
At Fort Bliss, contractors are not allowed to work in extreme heat or if winds 
are above 25mph...they have inspectors driving around.  Last year while I was 
on a lift with my beach umbrella one of them took pictures...checked my harness 
and told me about strict adherence to rules.  Made sense to me... Don't do 
streneous work in extreme heat...
Jaime Solorza

On Jun 20, 2017 8:19 AM, "Cameron Crum" 
> wrote:
"Running" might be a generous description of the activity involved in moving 
between bases with a bunch of guys that age.

On Tue, Jun 20, 2017 at 12:33 AM, Rory Conaway 
> wrote:
Yea, you guys are all heart.  We have a ball game tomorrow night at 7pm and the 
high tomorrow is supposed to be 120.  30 guys, all between 45 and 65, running 
around the bases in this temperature.  Let the good times roll.

Rory

From: Af [mailto:af-boun...@afmug.com] On Behalf 
Of Jaime Solorza
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:52 PM
To: Animal Farm
Subject: Re: [AFMUG] OT..Hey Rory...we have a cold front

No need ..it's 101 now b!
Jaime Solorza

On Jun 19, 2017 4:48 PM, "George Skorup" 
> wrote:
And the 80mph gust fronts.

On 6/19/2017 5:30 PM, Nate Burke wrote:
We can send you some of the marble size hail we just had in Chicago to cool you 
off

On 6/19/2017 5:27 PM, Jaime Solorza wrote:
Just heard from my brother who lives near Tucson, Phoenix is at 112...come on 
over here to El Paso..it's a cold 102lol...Friday we are hitting 107...I 
don't want to guess how hot you guy's will be.

Jaime Solorza

Re: [AFMUG] private community fiber network

[Steve Jones]

I guess I should have run a 10
10. is anybody able to justify 8050+ feet for 8 customers ROI on fiber
10a. this is a testbed, unrelated to the WISP I work for other than I plan
on backhauling into it for the boss, whether he owns the customers, I own
the customers or the subdivision owns the customers. so theres no build out
other than the radio link for the WISP, which is close enough for af24, so
its a WISP easy, even if we do the "last mile (50-100 feet)"

On Wed, Jun 21, 2017 at 12:15 AM, Adam Moffett  wrote:

>
> 1) Never done it, but I'm pretty sure you bury conduit under the bottom.
> 1a) Dunno.
> 2) You put a handhole wherever you'll need to pull, or anywhere you'll
> need to put a splice enclosure.
> 3) Depends who wrote it.  I think you'd have to read the terms of the
> ROW/easement to know for sure.  I had to cross a natural gas
> pipeline.they allow it, but their people had to be present for the
> digging and they had some rules about marking the fiber.  Railroad
> easements are notoriously difficult to cross.
> 4) An easement gives you permanent rights to something, and yes it stays
> with the property.  I'm not sure if it ever goes away.
> 5) Dunno.  Call the agency and ask them, or check their website.  With
> UFPO you can make the initial request on their website.
> 5a) Someone pays?  Not around here.
> 6.  pretty long.  Do it anyway.  Wireless won't meet demand forever and
> you'll need to start getting into fiber to stay relevant in the long term.
> 7.  Google it.but if it's just for these 8 houses why not 1"?  You
> won't need a very big cable.
> 8.  I'm not clear if you're looking for a cable or a vendor.  For
> underground you want loose tube fiber.  I just got a quote this very day
> for a 12 fiber loose tube for $0.31/foot.  Something like that might be
> fine.  Add a single THHN to use as a locator.  I'm willing to bet you can
> do whatever they want with just that cable and some clever splicing.
> 9.  Google it.
> 9a. I doubt it.  Small Poly handholes (not traffic rated) are like $40.
>  "Small" is still big enough for a drop cable splice enclosure.  For
> traffic rated you're spending a few hundred per boxI'm still not sure
> it's worth your labor time to make forms at that price, maybe if you're
> really awesome at building forms.
>
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Steve Jones" 
> To: "af@afmug.com" 
> Sent: 6/20/2017 11:04:12 PM
> Subject: [AFMUG] private community fiber network
>
> A few questions, this being a family estate property that was subdivided
> into different lots. There are 8 current homes, haven't looked at a platt
> map yet to see how the lots are legally divided, so there is that. This is
> about interconnecting and somewhere in the mix bringing in interwebs. To
> run past all the current lots is roughly 8050 feet. There would be 4
> "fingers" the longest being 3300 feet, passing 3 houses with the longest
> distance between those 3 being 1400 feet, 300 feet of this would be
> underwater.
> This is not a ROW, issue, they don't want it in ROW, I assume they need
> some sort of legal easement on record for the duct. I know zero about this.
> Here are some questions:
> 1. the underwater part. is that normally duct or just underwater fiber.
> 1a. this pond is stocked by DNR, does that require some crummy permit to
> drop fiber into even though its privately owned, I don't know what the
> trade off is for DNR stocking.
> 2. When passing a lot, do you normally put a handhole in each lot?
> 3. if a utility ROW is crossed, does that need a permit?
> 4. Whats the specific terminology, I think its easement, that makes the
> duct accessible, like ROW, legally even if the property changes hands
> 5. How does one get this buried cable/duct into a location service database
> 5.a when a locate is called in who pays? (USIC is the locating agency
> around here)
> 6.how much longer will this list of questions get before it gets too hard
>
> In this instance, it will all be cut trench, that's free, for them. This
> is all unincorporated land in a county. however there has been a history of
> forced incorporation attempts. should that happen, what happens with this
> duct?
>
> assuming there is some chatter on this, anticipate more detailed questions
> on tech specs
>
>