Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
What about all the jobs that people have when they develop software that is paid for and licensed? If the switch to free software were to suddenly happen, would these people find themselves out of work? This isn't a stab at anybody, it's just an observation that I'd like to put in there. And I'm genuinely interested in the response from enthusiasts to the idea. Also, I am a fan of both closed, and open software, using Microsoft and Mozilla products, enjoying and consuming DRM-Free media content. I don't often enjoy getting involved in open/closed/free/however discussions because I find they are very one sided a lot of the time. Speaking of Linux in schools - I do find that out of the many Linux distributions that I have used, Ubuntu included, none were up to scratch to use in either a production or play environment for me. Flaky support - annoying buggy features that waste time instead of saving time, just unusual ways of working. That's my 'used to XP' side shining through. XP does what I want now - and to be frank, is reliable and fast. At least how I have it set up. I do see the fun in being able to tweak the OS, and really get to grips with it's operation - if kids in computer science / computing / IT classes were taught to think that way then we would have a better IT society. But we must consider that first, we need a good platform to work from. Where I work, we are able to choose whichever platform works best for us, as long as it doesn't affect productivity. Trouble is, schools are more important than the workplace in my opinion - and the kids might not know what they want just yet. Maybe that's the point this thread is trying to prove? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
Matt Barber m...@progressive.org.uk wrote at 13:10 on 2009-02-11: What about all the jobs that people have when they develop software that is paid for and licensed? If the switch to free software were to suddenly happen, would these people find themselves out of work? This isn't a stab at anybody, it's just an observation that I'd like to put in there. And I'm genuinely interested in the response from enthusiasts to the idea. Well, quite a number of people are employed to work on OS and GPL software, both writing enhancements and fixing bugs. Certainly the growth in use of OS doesn't seem to have lead to hordes of unemployed developers. Indeed, most of the developers I know work using OS tools to write commercial software (webapps mostly) that runs on OS platforms and this has been a huge growth area in the last decade. Some are paid to write to write code which is subsequently opened. I'd be much more worried about sales, marketing, licensing and compliance people TBH. If your job is keeping track of licenses to avoid having your organisation beaten up by BSA/FAST and those licenses suddenly become fewer in number (I don't think anyone is suggesting no use of commercial software) then there's a reduction in the amount of work needed. Whether this is repaid by the removal of a bureaucratic brake on Getting Stuff Done* is up for debate. I think it is, but as a Linux/BSD guy I would, I suppose. *When I used to work in Windows/Mac shops, keeping track of licenses was a huge time-sink. Long hours spent reciting long alphanumerics back and forth to call centres are weren't really what I'd been hired for. S - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
I can't see the ed sector taking on free software in any great volume in the near future ... the issues around support and compatibility (with workplaces and what parents have at home) are just too great. If there was to be a shift away from MS/Windows, I think it is more likely to be in the direction of Apple and OSX. Apple are hooking kids with iPods and iPhones and the step from using an iPod (and iTunes on Win or OSX) or an iPhone to using a Mac running OSX is tiny. OSX with iWork does virtually everything people need. Someone mentioned earlier on that kids don't even get taught how to type in schools, but I think that's a minor issue ... I know plenty of kids who haven't been taught to touch type properly but who can whizz around their keyboards, mice, iPods, touch screens, etc faster than most touch typists. The keyboard as an interface will be less and less important as technologies develop (especially voice inputs). The total cost of ownership of a Mac is (in my experience) far lower than running Windows machines. The hardware purchase price is high, but the OS is MILES cheaper (and miles more reliable) and iWork can do pretty much everything the average user needs for a lot less money than MS Office. If MS want to compete in the years ahead, they radically need to drop their prices. Also, society is becoming far more creative and interactive socially and job wise. People need tools to get the job done simply - they don't care how those tools are made and they don't want to learn how to make the tools. Apple gives people software that works. They boot up and are productive more or less straight away. There's no need to learn how the OS works. There's no need to learn how to use MS Office. If people can use iTunes, they can pretty much intuitively use any part of Apple's core software suites (iWork and iLife). And the OS doesn't break all the time and it doesn't need a lot of IT support. A UK school example from Apple: http://www.apple.com/uk/education/profiles/bryanston/ And another thing is the growth of Apple not just in the iPod youth centred market, but in the Mac/PC market in the US - especially in US universities where the US is today, we often follow. An example: http://blogs.eweek.com/applewatch/content/macbook/is_apples_mac_u_pic_worth_a_thousand_words.html Apple have been so smart in grabbing the attention of the iGeneration ... so long as they don't lose momentum, they have the potential to surpass MS in many markets. There was a TV docu the other day about newspapers in the UK - virtually every office shot showed banks of people using Apples. Media based, I know - but half the population want a media related job these days. People don't want free software. They want software that 'just works and which doesn't cost an arm and a leg. They don't want the confusion of tons of MS Windows' flavours. Apple ticks all of those boxes and with the iPoders growing up and buying PCs the Windows market share will fall. People won;t switch to free OS platforms. On 11 Feb 2009, at 12:10, Matt Barber wrote: What about all the jobs that people have when they develop software that is paid for and licensed? If the switch to free software were to suddenly happen, would these people find themselves out of work? This isn't a stab at anybody, it's just an observation that I'd like to put in there. And I'm genuinely interested in the response from enthusiasts to the idea. Also, I am a fan of both closed, and open software, using Microsoft and Mozilla products, enjoying and consuming DRM-Free media content. I don't often enjoy getting involved in open/closed/free/however discussions because I find they are very one sided a lot of the time. Speaking of Linux in schools - I do find that out of the many Linux distributions that I have used, Ubuntu included, none were up to scratch to use in either a production or play environment for me. Flaky support - annoying buggy features that waste time instead of saving time, just unusual ways of working. That's my 'used to XP' side shining through. XP does what I want now - and to be frank, is reliable and fast. At least how I have it set up. I do see the fun in being able to tweak the OS, and really get to grips with it's operation - if kids in computer science / computing / IT classes were taught to think that way then we would have a better IT society. But we must consider that first, we need a good platform to work from. Where I work, we are able to choose whichever platform works best for us, as long as it doesn't affect productivity. Trouble is, schools are more important than the workplace in my opinion - and the kids might not know what they want just yet. Maybe that's the point this thread is trying to prove? - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
Under BSF SUN now runs Bradford local authority schools IT From http://blogs.sun.com/joehartley/entry/back_to_a_new_school The computers were not conventional PCs, but _Sun Ray thin clients http://www.sun.com/sunray/index.jsp%20_. Sun Ray clients enable virtualized desktop sessions to run on a datacenter server, which houses the applications and data. ... As the key technology partner to Bradford, Sun is not only providing the hardware, we're also designing the software that will facilitate learning. Using Sun's open source software as well as other open source educational software such as Moodlerooms, Sun has created an open source software environment for the school. Zen wrote: I can't see the ed sector taking on free software in any great volume in the near future ... the issues around support and compatibility (with workplaces and what parents have at home) are just too great. If there was to be a shift away from MS/Windows, I think it is more likely to be in the direction of Apple and OSX. Apple are hooking kids with iPods and iPhones and the step from using an iPod (and iTunes on Win or OSX) or an iPhone to using a Mac running OSX is tiny. OSX with iWork does virtually everything people need. Someone mentioned earlier on that kids don't even get taught how to type in schools, but I think that's a minor issue ... I know plenty of kids who haven't been taught to touch type properly but who can whizz around their keyboards, mice, iPods, touch screens, etc faster than most touch typists. The keyboard as an interface will be less and less important as technologies develop (especially voice inputs). The total cost of ownership of a Mac is (in my experience) far lower than running Windows machines. The hardware purchase price is high, but the OS is MILES cheaper (and miles more reliable) and iWork can do pretty much everything the average user needs for a lot less money than MS Office. If MS want to compete in the years ahead, they radically need to drop their prices. Also, society is becoming far more creative and interactive socially and job wise. People need tools to get the job done simply - they don't care how those tools are made and they don't want to learn how to make the tools. Apple gives people software that works. They boot up and are productive more or less straight away. There's no need to learn how the OS works. There's no need to learn how to use MS Office. If people can use iTunes, they can pretty much intuitively use any part of Apple's core software suites (iWork and iLife). And the OS doesn't break all the time and it doesn't need a lot of IT support. A UK school example from Apple: http://www.apple.com/uk/education/profiles/bryanston/ And another thing is the growth of Apple not just in the iPod youth centred market, but in the Mac/PC market in the US - especially in US universities where the US is today, we often follow. An example: http://blogs.eweek.com/applewatch/content/macbook/is_apples_mac_u_pic_worth_a_thousand_words.html Apple have been so smart in grabbing the attention of the iGeneration ... so long as they don't lose momentum, they have the potential to surpass MS in many markets. There was a TV docu the other day about newspapers in the UK - virtually every office shot showed banks of people using Apples. Media based, I know - but half the population want a media related job these days. People don't want free software. They want software that 'just works and which doesn't cost an arm and a leg. They don't want the confusion of tons of MS Windows' flavours. Apple ticks all of those boxes and with the iPoders growing up and buying PCs the Windows market share will fall. People won;t switch to free OS platforms. On 11 Feb 2009, at 12:10, Matt Barber wrote: What about all the jobs that people have when they develop software that is paid for and licensed? If the switch to free software were to suddenly happen, would these people find themselves out of work? This isn't a stab at anybody, it's just an observation that I'd like to put in there. And I'm genuinely interested in the response from enthusiasts to the idea. Also, I am a fan of both closed, and open software, using Microsoft and Mozilla products, enjoying and consuming DRM-Free media content. I don't often enjoy getting involved in open/closed/free/however discussions because I find they are very one sided a lot of the time. Speaking of Linux in schools - I do find that out of the many Linux distributions that I have used, Ubuntu included, none were up to scratch to use in either a production or play environment for me. Flaky support - annoying buggy features that waste time instead of saving time, just unusual ways of working. That's my 'used to XP' side shining through. XP does what I want now - and to be frank, is reliable and fast. At least how I have it set up. I do see the fun in being able to tweak the OS, and
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
I'm glad you pointed this out. There are more obviously. Why is this discussion operating like there aren't entire governments, schools and nations already moving to or running open source? Andalusia (Guadlinex), Extremadura (gnuLinEx), Madrid (MAX) in Spain have had their own distributions for schools and public spaces quite some time. We can discuss how feasable it is - but it is. People are doing it in Spain and other parts of the world. Here's one primer with a few case studies: http://www.iosn.net/education/foss-education-primer/index_html/view Here's a click through presentation on Guadlinex: http://speeches.ofset.org/jrfernandez/rmll2008/ A good quote from there: Integrating computers in education is a pedagogical not a technical issue On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Neil Aberdeen n...@tui.co.uk wrote: Under BSF SUN now runs Bradford local authority schools IT From http://blogs.sun.com/joehartley/entry/back_to_a_new_school The computers were not conventional PCs, but *Sun Ray thin clientshttp://www.sun.com/sunray/index.jsp%20 *. Sun Ray clients enable virtualized desktop sessions to run on a datacenter server, which houses the applications and data. ... As the key technology partner to Bradford, Sun is not only providing the hardware, we're also designing the software that will facilitate learning. Using Sun's open source software as well as other open source educational software such as Moodlerooms, Sun has created an open source software environment for the school.
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
For the past two years, the Ile-de-France region which includes Paris has distributed 200,000 USB keys with free open source software to students of 450 secondary schools each September. The gcompris project (= j'ai compris = I understood) for young students is available for all platforms in over 25 languages and has been used worldwide. The Shuttleworth Foundation has sponsored several large-scale education projects in South Africa, notably tuXlab and Kusasa. The One Laptop Per Child project, designed particularly for students in developing countries, has distributed over 600,000 XO laptops running the Sugar interface. Although OLPC has announced a beefed-up (and thus more expensive) Windows-only or dual-boot version of the XO, Microsoft has encountered difficulties getting any version of Windows to run on it. Sugar is now being ported to popular netbooks, is being included in GNU/Linux distributions, and a standalone bootable live USB key is in the works. Disclaimer: I am a participant in the Sugar Labs community. Sean. On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 3:45 PM, Rich Vazquez rvazq...@impactnews.com wrote: I'm glad you pointed this out. There are more obviously. Why is this discussion operating like there aren't entire governments, schools and nations already moving to or running open source? Andalusia (Guadlinex), Extremadura (gnuLinEx), Madrid (MAX) in Spain have had their own distributions for schools and public spaces quite some time. We can discuss how feasable it is - but it is. People are doing it in Spain and other parts of the world. Here's one primer with a few case studies: http://www.iosn.net/education/foss-education-primer/index_html/view Here's a click through presentation on Guadlinex: http://speeches.ofset.org/jrfernandez/rmll2008/ A good quote from there: Integrating computers in education is a pedagogical not a technical issue On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 8:23 AM, Neil Aberdeen n...@tui.co.uk wrote: Under BSF SUN now runs Bradford local authority schools IT From http://blogs.sun.com/joehartley/entry/back_to_a_new_school The computers were not conventional PCs, but Sun Ray thin clients. Sun Ray clients enable virtualized desktop sessions to run on a datacenter server, which houses the applications and data. ... As the key technology partner to Bradford, Sun is not only providing the hardware, we're also designing the software that will facilitate learning. Using Sun's open source software as well as other open source educational software such as Moodlerooms, Sun has created an open source software environment for the school. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
³Microsoft offers the OS and Office at extremely competitive prices to schools. I have heard it quoted as being around £5 per license for Office.² It is cheaper but not that cheap... For example: MS Office single license = £43 + £25 Software assurance Windows Server Standard (Single License) = £85 + £42 software assurance ³Parents have an expectation that MS Office will be taught in the classroom as it is what they know and use in their work place.² Most parents I know are not that worried about what is used but they are concerned about compatibility with their home machine etc. ³The majority of schools have limited IT resources and might have limited experience of using and securing Linux and other open source software. They could be substantial costs in retraining staff.² Yes they would have limited experience but nothing a bit of training wouldn¹t cover IMO. ³I totally agree that opensource has a great to offer schools with applications like Moodle, Audacity and many others, but currently I don't think many schools are ready for Linux/Ubuntu and OpenOffice.² I don¹t think most users would care if you ran Ubuntu/OpenOffice. Beyond that we come back to my argument regarding the user interface where, unfortunately, most of the open source software loses out big time! Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company.
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
On 10 Feb 2009, at 09:23, Alun Rowe wrote: “Microsoft offers the OS and Office at extremely competitive prices to schools. I have heard it quoted as being around £5 per license for Office.” It is cheaper but not that cheap... At Glasgow University it used to be nearly that cheap - because there was a site wide licence students could get a set of discs for ~£10. Which probably only just about covered the costs of the admin and the floppies. The current retail price for a 3 user Home/School use only copy is £99, inc VAT, so £33 a user. f - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
I was basing it on purchasing a single copy. Purchasing a site wide license for say 500 desktops would see significant savings. The Home/Student edition is cheaper but that's not for schools to use, it's for the students to have on their own laptops which they aren't allowed to connect to the school wifi... On 10/02/2009 09:44, Fearghas McKay fm-li...@st-kilda.org wrote: On 10 Feb 2009, at 09:23, Alun Rowe wrote: ³Microsoft offers the OS and Office at extremely competitive prices to schools. I have heard it quoted as being around £5 per license for Office.² It is cheaper but not that cheap... At Glasgow University it used to be nearly that cheap - because there was a site wide licence students could get a set of discs for ~£10. Which probably only just about covered the costs of the admin and the floppies. The current retail price for a 3 user Home/School use only copy is £99, inc VAT, so £33 a user. f - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ This message (and any associated files) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is confidential, subject to copyright or constitutes a trade secret. If you are not the intended recipient you are hereby notified that any dissemination, copying or distribution of this message, or files associated with this message, is strictly prohibited. If you have received this message in error, please notify us immediately by replying to the message and deleting it from your computer. Messages sent to and from us may be monitored. Internet communications cannot be guaranteed to be secure or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. Therefore, we do not accept responsibility for any errors or omissions that are present in this message, or any attachment, that have arisen as a result of e-mail transmission. If verification is required, please request a hard-copy version. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of the company. Alun Rowe Pentangle Internet Limited 2 Buttermarket Thame Oxfordshire OX9 3EW Tel: +44 8700 339905 Fax: +44 8700 339906 Please direct all support requests to mailto:it-supp...@pentangle.co.uk Pentangle Internet Limited is a limited company registered in England and Wales. Registered number: 3960918. Registered office: 1 Lauras Close, Great Staughton, Cambridgeshire PE19 5DP - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
The cost of school licences is a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of lifetime subscription. Microsoft may be many things, but they aren't stupid..! Phil On Tue, Feb 10, 2009 at 9:44 AM, Fearghas McKay fm-li...@st-kilda.orgwrote: On 10 Feb 2009, at 09:23, Alun Rowe wrote: Microsoft offers the OS and Office at extremely competitive prices to schools. I have heard it quoted as being around £5 per license for Office. It is cheaper but not that cheap... At Glasgow University it used to be nearly that cheap - because there was a site wide licence students could get a set of discs for ~£10. Which probably only just about covered the costs of the admin and the floppies. The current retail price for a 3 user Home/School use only copy is £99, inc VAT, so £33 a user. f - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- http://philwhitehouse.blogspot.com
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
On 10 Feb 2009, at 09:51, Alun Rowe wrote: I was basing it on purchasing a single copy. Purchasing a site wide license for say 500 desktops would see significant savings. Which was Adam's point. The Home/Student edition is cheaper but that's not for schools to use, it's for the students to have on their own laptops which they aren't allowed to connect to the school wifi... ?? Well I had better remove the copies off my son's desktop and tell him not to connect to his school network with the laptop... Really ? Do you have a citation for that? My reading of the licence didn't not include those restrictions on the Mac version, albeit a couple of years ago when we purchased the software. f - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
On 10/02/2009 10:24, Fearghas McKay fm-li...@st-kilda.org wrote: I was basing it on purchasing a single copy. Purchasing a site wide license for say 500 desktops would see significant savings. Which was Adam's point. Indeed, the figures I included on the first email were just an example The Home/Student edition is cheaper but that's not for schools to use, it's for the students to have on their own laptops which they aren't allowed to connect to the school wifi... ?? Well I had better remove the copies off my son's desktop and tell him not to connect to his school network with the laptop... Really ? Do you have a citation for that? My reading of the licence didn't not include those restrictions on the Mac version, albeit a couple of years ago when we purchased the software. The copy on your son's computer is fine, he is a student after all. It is a Home/Student Edition. When I say not for School + mean a school could not use it as a base install throughout their class rooms as it would be being licensed to a business (the school) not an individual user. As for connecting his laptop to WiFi I was being slightly tongue in cheek as most schools won't let kids on the network with their own machine due to security restrictions.
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
If the home/school copy works out at £33 each, you might as well look at purchasing from www.theultimatesteal.com Get office ultimate 2007 for £38.95 - I believe this is the second year they've done it now as I took advantage of it last year as a student. It certainly makes it a lot more affordable. The one office I use quite a bit at the university has only open office as the office suite on one of the computers. It's amazing how many people it drives mad, to the point they refuse to use it and try to swap with the person on the machine with the whole microsoft office suite on it. Perhaps we have to start using these alternatives earlier on for them to be accepted. Lee 2009/2/10 Fearghas McKay fm-li...@st-kilda.org On 10 Feb 2009, at 09:23, Alun Rowe wrote: Microsoft offers the OS and Office at extremely competitive prices to schools. I have heard it quoted as being around £5 per license for Office. It is cheaper but not that cheap... At Glasgow University it used to be nearly that cheap - because there was a site wide licence students could get a set of discs for ~£10. Which probably only just about covered the costs of the admin and the floppies. The current retail price for a 3 user Home/School use only copy is £99, inc VAT, so £33 a user. f - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
On 10 Feb 2009, at 10:41, Lee Stone wrote: Get office ultimate 2007 for £38.95 - I believe this is the second year they've done it now as I took advantage of it last year as a student. It certainly makes it a lot more affordable. That would mean running Windaes and me having to support it so no thanks :-) f - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
Interesting as all these discussions are schools will have what's given to them and supported under BSF monoploy IT provision (see http://www.edugeek.net/wiki/index.php/List_of_awarded_ICT_contracts) unless there is resistance and/or failure (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7841850.stm) Gareth Davis wrote: Something not being discussed, is that there can be any amount of take up of open source platforms within a school - you don't have to go 100%. Way back in my sixth form days (1996) between the Head of Learning Resources, a former student who was now at university and myself - we replaced the ageing Econet/SJ MDFS network with Ethernet and Slackware Linux fileservers over a period of several months. The Acorn Archimedes and Risc PC boxes all had Omniclient to NFS mount the Linux filestores, and the Win 3.1/95 PCs used Samba. The Linux boxes also provided the usual central network services such as DNS, DHCP, email and a proxy server to allow internet access. Later we managed to convince the local cable TV company to give us a 2Mbps/G703 circuit between us and the local university for next to nothing to replace the ISDN line coming out of one of the servers. With the central infrastructure changed it really didn't matter what the machines ran. At the time it made sense that the rooms teaching vocational courses used Windows OS and Microsoft applications, and other areas could continue to use the Acorn machines as the software was perfectly up to the job. If you could format a document in say, Impression Publisher on an Acorn, then using Microsoft Word or Wordperfect on a PC afterwards really wasn't a big learning curve. Although some of the Acorn Risc PCs did have Intel coprocessor cards so could run Windows 95 as well as Risc OS. Quite what they are using now I don't know, I expect Active Directory has made things a little more complicated to maintain the single sign on environment we had set up then. Things have moved on in the last 12 years, but I think if Acorn were still in existence then schools probably would still be using them, as the skills are transferable - and the machines are designed to be used in an classroom environment. But once they were no longer available schools had a choice, either bring in another platform to teach 'transferable skills' (Mac, or PC/Linux), or get the PC/Windows platform and teach the 'correct' skills first time. As has already been mentioned, the knowledge of the staff has to be taken into account so chances are PC/Windows was the comfortable choice. But schools have already made a transition away from Risc OS to Windows, so another transition may not be out of the question. IMHO if the Linux environment was as well developed as it is today when Acorn closed down, then I can see how a lot of schools could have moved straight across. As it was common practise to teach 'transferable skills' from a non Windows platform then. Now I think there would have to be some very clear cut benefits to convince schools and parents that it was a good idea. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
On 10 Feb 2009, at 12:20, Neil Aberdeen wrote: Interesting as all these discussions are schools will have what's given to them and supported under BSF monoploy IT provision (see http://www.edugeek.net/wiki/index.php/List_of_awarded_ICT_contracts) unless there is resistance and/or failure (see http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/7841850.stm) That only applies to England, not Scotland. It looks like Wales is devolved as well. So move to the North or the West :-) f - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
Mm. Very interesting. If something as simple as a petition will make Windows free and open source, why has no-one thought of it before? Why do the idiots who start these petitions never have any kind of grasp of grammar? Or proof reading? Would you take anyone seriously who turned up on your doorstep dribbling from the mouth, telling you it's all bout the lu1z? No. Nothing to see here - move along now... Cheers, Rich. On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Mr I Forrester mail...@cubicgarden.com wrote: Seen this in my mailbox a few times today, sure you will all find this interesting... We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/nonMSschools/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
Seen this in my mailbox a few times today, sure you will all find this interesting... We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/nonMSschools/ I find this idea appealing but fundamentally flawed. Let me explain why this concept is a non-starter for all but a few schools. I went through this country's education system and am currently in my final year at University, so it wasn't such a long time ago ;) It so happens that my Dad was the deputy head at the school I went to and he was also the only person who managed the school's entire IT infrastructure for a very long time. Yes, the school did eventually become a Technology College (thanks in part due to his hard work over the time he was there), and with that Technology College status they got a lot more money - they eventually got one, then two, then several members of dedicated IT staff - but for the most part it was him steering the boat as such. He did the lion's share of the administrative IT work as well, installing and maintaining SIMS, all the staff machines, equipment, etc. The bloke working in the Reprographics department managed the offset litho printer (yes, they had one!) and the photocopiers I think, but that was about it. So, during the best part of 14 years he was there for, my Dad oversaw and managed installations of, in order, an Acorn network with matching Econet system (remember the DINs and T-bars? :D), a gradual move from Acorn to 95 machines, then to 98 with more and more intricate networking infrastructure. He had little money and worked with what he had available to him within budgetary constraints him local and national suppliers. This meant that, by the time the school got proper wedges of funding for IT, the school already had a firmly established userbase of Windows 9x machines, gradually making the move to 2000 then to XP as time went on. Site licenses for educational software are costly, and I would put money on the fact that just about all educational software is still written solely for the Windows OS. Chicken and the egg scenario here, but if you want definitive figures just go to BETT and do some empirical research to find out. (I bet I'm right). Also, historical investment in infrastructure cannot be ignored, and quite often you have scenarios where you build up relationships with suppliers and distributors and so can secure good deals for all sorts of things. When you have limited manpower and man hours to maintain a network used all day every day by hundreds of students and staff alike, you can't afford to have 'exotic particles' introduced into even a closed loop system. Plus, there are so many other outside influences and requirements (right down to the cacheing systems many schools used back when ISDN was the only reality for connectivity, before the Grids for Learning were properly established) that you could not expect to have a system being migrated over to some bizarre and funky FOSS alternative OS. Aside from the fact that the suite of *de facto* software the students would use day in and day would need to be the same, in some cases the bloody curriculum demanded that particular software be used, so your hands were tied. Other times, it was a cost/benefit analysis. Sure, FOSS alternatives to CAD/CAM were available, I'm sure, but did they work as well as CAD/CAM, play nice with all the hardware the graphics and control tech departments had, AND fully support all the old work and files students had created? You can't just rip and replace in an educational scenario. Given that many schools' IT infrastructure development was so organic and self-funded throughout the 90s, they are now in the situation where it is almost completely impractical to start from scratch with a FOSS OS and FOSS software, making sure that interdependencies aren't broken, networking works as well (or as expected) as prior to the switch, and students - and staff alike - aren't 'de-familiarised' with the setup. With any major transition such as an OS move, there's a lot of retraining needed for staff and students. When you run to such a tight timeline as most schools do, there just aren't enough hours in the day to accomplish this. The cost in terms of 1) setting it all up 2) testing it 3) supporting it 4) fixing stuff that doesn't work like it should 5) dealing with problems related to the transition can just become extortionate, and I would also wager that most school IT departments have their hands full enough just keeping existing infrastructure going. The only schools that could possibly get away with FOSS from the outset are the entirely new builds, because there's no legacy there in terms of hardware and software requirements. Having said all of this, I am fully supportive of FOSS - and so is my Dad. He's currently the IT advisor for education for the county council where he now lives, and has
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
He isn't advocating making Windows open source, the petition states that the primary OS used in schools should be a free and open source alternative to windows. Not idiotic at all. I've signed up. Phil On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 4:05 PM, Richard Lockwood richard.lockw...@gmail.com wrote: Mm. Very interesting. If something as simple as a petition will make Windows free and open source, why has no-one thought of it before? Why do the idiots who start these petitions never have any kind of grasp of grammar? Or proof reading? Would you take anyone seriously who turned up on your doorstep dribbling from the mouth, telling you it's all bout the lu1z? No. Nothing to see here - move along now... Cheers, Rich. On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Mr I Forrester mail...@cubicgarden.com wrote: Seen this in my mailbox a few times today, sure you will all find this interesting... We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/nonMSschools/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- http://philwhitehouse.blogspot.com
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
Chris, your points are very interesting, and I wonder if you've been in touch with the team who are behind Open Labs: Learning? http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/openlearning/ a On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Christopher Woods chris...@infinitus.co.ukwrote: Seen this in my mailbox a few times today, sure you will all find this interesting... We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/nonMSschools/ I find this idea appealing but fundamentally flawed. Let me explain why this concept is a non-starter for all but a few schools. I went through this country's education system and am currently in my final year at University, so it wasn't such a long time ago ;) It so happens that my Dad was the deputy head at the school I went to and he was also the only person who managed the school's entire IT infrastructure for a very long time. Yes, the school did eventually become a Technology College (thanks in part due to his hard work over the time he was there), and with that Technology College status they got a lot more money - they eventually got one, then two, then several members of dedicated IT staff - but for the most part it was him steering the boat as such. He did the lion's share of the administrative IT work as well, installing and maintaining SIMS, all the staff machines, equipment, etc. The bloke working in the Reprographics department managed the offset litho printer (yes, they had one!) and the photocopiers I think, but that was about it. So, during the best part of 14 years he was there for, my Dad oversaw and managed installations of, in order, an Acorn network with matching Econet system (remember the DINs and T-bars? :D), a gradual move from Acorn to 95 machines, then to 98 with more and more intricate networking infrastructure. He had little money and worked with what he had available to him within budgetary constraints him local and national suppliers. This meant that, by the time the school got proper wedges of funding for IT, the school already had a firmly established userbase of Windows 9x machines, gradually making the move to 2000 then to XP as time went on. Site licenses for educational software are costly, and I would put money on the fact that just about all educational software is still written solely for the Windows OS. Chicken and the egg scenario here, but if you want definitive figures just go to BETT and do some empirical research to find out. (I bet I'm right). Also, historical investment in infrastructure cannot be ignored, and quite often you have scenarios where you build up relationships with suppliers and distributors and so can secure good deals for all sorts of things. When you have limited manpower and man hours to maintain a network used all day every day by hundreds of students and staff alike, you can't afford to have 'exotic particles' introduced into even a closed loop system. Plus, there are so many other outside influences and requirements (right down to the cacheing systems many schools used back when ISDN was the only reality for connectivity, before the Grids for Learning were properly established) that you could not expect to have a system being migrated over to some bizarre and funky FOSS alternative OS. Aside from the fact that the suite of *de facto* software the students would use day in and day would need to be the same, in some cases the bloody curriculum demanded that particular software be used, so your hands were tied. Other times, it was a cost/benefit analysis. Sure, FOSS alternatives to CAD/CAM were available, I'm sure, but did they work as well as CAD/CAM, play nice with all the hardware the graphics and control tech departments had, AND fully support all the old work and files students had created? You can't just rip and replace in an educational scenario. Given that many schools' IT infrastructure development was so organic and self-funded throughout the 90s, they are now in the situation where it is almost completely impractical to start from scratch with a FOSS OS and FOSS software, making sure that interdependencies aren't broken, networking works as well (or as expected) as prior to the switch, and students - and staff alike - aren't 'de-familiarised' with the setup. With any major transition such as an OS move, there's a lot of retraining needed for staff and students. When you run to such a tight timeline as most schools do, there just aren't enough hours in the day to accomplish this. The cost in terms of 1) setting it all up 2) testing it 3) supporting it 4) fixing stuff that doesn't work like it should 5) dealing with problems related to the transition can just become extortionate, and I would also wager that most school IT departments have their hands full enough just keeping existing infrastructure going. The only schools that could
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
2009/2/9 Richard Lockwood richard.lockw...@gmail.com: If something as simple as a petition will make Windows free and open source, why has no-one thought of it before? That is not what the petition is about! :-) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
Interesting that OLPC has just gone OS! Also,: www.opensourceschools.org.uk http://www.osor.eu/news/uk-open-source-is-core-to-education http://www.141.co.uk/?p=164 On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 4:17 PM, Dave Crossland d...@lab6.com wrote: 2009/2/9 Richard Lockwood richard.lockw...@gmail.com: If something as simple as a petition will make Windows free and open source, why has no-one thought of it before? That is not what the petition is about! :-) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/ -- Ant Miller tel: 07709 265961 email: ant.mil...@gmail.com
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Christopher Woods chris...@infinitus.co.uk Transforming a Windows school to an Ubuntu school is nigh on impossible to achieve unless you provide a year's warning, gradually phase out use of all Windows-only software over the course of the year, implement the massive overhaul and platform transition during the holidays and then spend the next six months to a year supporting users when stuff goes wrong. Most schools simply cannot afford to provision those kinds of resources, so they stay put with what they have, and that's why FOSS will never make significant inroads into those establishments. It would take something like Governmental intervention to impose FOSS and OSes on schools as a mandatory element of their funding in order for them to make the change, but it would be so disruptive that it would probably be ignored or sidelined by many schools. And yet they will end up on a newer Microsoft operating system at some point. ;-) I am not trying to scaremonger or FUD here, it is just my view as someone who has gone through the system and grown up alongside the maturation of a typical educational IT setup, and who also had the advantage of talking to the person who helped to implement a lot of it (and still talks to the person who now helps implement policy and infrastructure for an entire county's worth of education!) Although perhaps flawed or coloured, I feel it's a pragmatic, realistic view. It's very informative. Thanks. I've encountered similar stories from people working with charities for example. One thing I'd say is that nothing will stimulate companies that can support schools (and other institutions) using GNU/Linux like the prospect of there being a sudden increase in the number of schools using GNU/Linux to support. ;-) - Rob. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
Transforming a Windows school to an Ubuntu school is nigh on impossible to achieve unless you provide a year's warning, gradually phase out use of all Windows-only software over the course of the year, implement the massive overhaul and platform transition during the holidays and then spend the next six months to a year supporting users when stuff goes wrong. Most schools simply cannot afford to provision those kinds of resources, so they stay put with what they have, and that's why FOSS will never make significant inroads into those establishments. It would take something like Governmental intervention to impose FOSS and OSes on schools as a mandatory element of their funding in order for them to make the change, but it would be so disruptive that it would probably be ignored or sidelined by many schools. I can still remember my secondary school getting 386s - one room had the ICL PCs, the other two still had BBC Masters! It was like that for a while, despite the school getting some pioneering grants. All school migrations on equipment and software is inevitably going to be a slow process as equipment comes online. It's not impossible, but you can't do it quickly. I think it's more doable at the primary school level. You start small and slowly. There's a lot of very good educational software out there, and distributions like Edubuntu. Old PCs which would need to be replaced otherwise, could be brought into service to try them out. Software needs at that level (I presume!) are a lot less constrained on what you need - and there's the added benefit that such software can be installed for free too ;) It just needs people who know what they're doing, but then, doesn't Windows?! There's been some interesting articles on education and Linux in Linux Format and there are some states and countries which are pressing quite heavily into removing Windows from their school. However the consensus appeared to be that the UK hasn't been geared up to providing the assistance that schools need to make the move. One of the articles I read said that some schools are using open source software - from servers to software like Gcompris - thanks to people with enthusiasm and a desire to try new things. They're small scale - obviously. And to get it extended you really need some big push to make it happen. It could happen. (Yeah. And monkeys might fly out of my butt :) ) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
Maybe I'm a poor deluded misguided fool who needs showing the error of my ways? Lorks, far from it! I think we'd need a lot of people like you if the government does try and introduce open source into schools. These are really important problems that mustn't be overlooked. I'll assume for the purpose of brevity that the readers of this list understand the benefits of open source. We're training our kids to give money to vendors for their entire lives. Windows is an expensive, inherently closed system which, in 2009, offers very little benefit over and above open source alternatives. This gap is closing fast. So let's look at the negatives to see if they can be mitigated and overcome. I definitely recognise the problems you've outlined, but I believe they're not insurmountable. Introducing open source solutions to all schools in a 'big bang' fashion would be a total disaster, no doubt about it. But I can imagine a world where a gentle introduction (pilot projects in a limited number of capable schools) could help define what a subsequent, gradual rollout might look like. Several key issues would need to be addressed. The lack of available software is a big problem, but I believe this can be addressed at the government level by insisting that all commissioned software runs cross-domain. Having recently spent time walking around a primary school (my daughter started there in January) I didn't see any materials that couldn't have been designed to display in a browser. And there were plenty of PowerPoint slides that could run in OpenOffice. So if we start making this a condition of all new software NOW, then in a few years time we'd have a lot less propriertary software to worry about, and there's nothing to lose in the meantime. Support is another key issue, but one which I expect to fall away in 2009. Ubuntu isn't quite there yet, granted, but they're investing huge amounts of money in this area: http://www.markshuttleworth.com/archives/162 I believe that support issues (especially re 3rd party devices) will be level with Windows in the next 2 years. Maybe sooner. Just looking back over your list: 1) setting it all up - keep it small to start with, then roll into normal upgrade cycle, there's no hurry! 2) testing it - this should be part of the procurement process, push the onus of (cross browser?) testing onto the vendor 3) supporting it - getting easier, and heaven knows Windows has its own problems here, especially re: virii, malware, etc. 4) fixing stuff that doesn't work like it should - same problems at present i.e. no obvious downside, again the browser is the key. If it works in Firefox it'll work everywhere. 5) dealing with problems related to the transition - again, by making it gradual and rolling it into the current upgrade cycle we mitigate the risk All this needs to be judged against the HUGE upside. More time, energy and money invested in open source makes it better for everyone. I'm not a microsoft hater by any means, but spending £millions of public money on vendor lock-in seems daft to me. Time to start planning a gradual and controlled move over to open source. Hey, it could take 5-10 years but the benefits seem worthwhile. And then we'd have an army of youngsters ready-equiped to operate in a world where open source will definitely be a big player. Just my $0.02! Phil On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 4:12 PM, Christopher Woods chris...@infinitus.co.ukwrote: Seen this in my mailbox a few times today, sure you will all find this interesting... We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/nonMSschools/ I find this idea appealing but fundamentally flawed. Let me explain why this concept is a non-starter for all but a few schools. I went through this country's education system and am currently in my final year at University, so it wasn't such a long time ago ;) It so happens that my Dad was the deputy head at the school I went to and he was also the only person who managed the school's entire IT infrastructure for a very long time. Yes, the school did eventually become a Technology College (thanks in part due to his hard work over the time he was there), and with that Technology College status they got a lot more money - they eventually got one, then two, then several members of dedicated IT staff - but for the most part it was him steering the boat as such. He did the lion's share of the administrative IT work as well, installing and maintaining SIMS, all the staff machines, equipment, etc. The bloke working in the Reprographics department managed the offset litho printer (yes, they had one!) and the photocopiers I think, but that was about it. So, during the best part of 14 years he was there for, my Dad oversaw and managed installations of, in order, an Acorn network with matching Econet system (remember the DINs and T-bars? :D), a
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
2009/2/9 Phil Whitehouse phil.whiteho...@gmail.com: Maybe I'm a poor deluded misguided fool who needs showing the error of my ways? We're training our kids to give money to vendors for their entire lives. And, more importantly IMO, to not consider the value of freedom in relation to the parts of there lives that are computer-mediated, which is an accelerating part of all our lives. Sadly, since schools routinely spy on the use of computers and discipline students for using them for hobbies instead of only using them for school-approved learning, students learn lessons about freedom and privacy in relation to computers the hard way. Cheers, Dave (personal opinion only.) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
And yet they will end up on a newer Microsoft operating system at some point. ;-) Right - if they really stayed put with what they have, then they'd still be using Acorns. Which probably taught kids more about computer science than the XP machines in use today ;-) So, rather than spending on the Windows 7 upgrade, better to invest in the switch to software freedom. WINE will take care of legacy proprietary educational applications for the short period where they get re-implemented as free software. If only it were that assured... Wine's hardware 3D support is, from what friends who use it tell me, still quite potholed - and I don't even think it has fully fledged hardware TL support. Hell, VMWare doesn't have full hardware TL support yet, and that's far more widely used. For that reason alone, it won't be adopted to run graphics editing apps, graphics department software, cad software... The main sticking point for most schools is the can we help students if... question. Hypothetical scenario: a student who's never used Edubuntu before comes to the teacher in charge of the class and says, miss/sir, I know how to do zyx in microsoft Word because we have it at home, but I've not used OpenOffice before and I don't know how to figure it out. Can you help me? The teacher says, erm, yes kid no problem, let me just go Google for the answer because I don't know myself. Dingdingding we have a winner! The class loses respect for the teacher because they cannot lead and instantly assist the pupil, the teacher feels demoralised because they don't have all the knowledge they need to lead the class, and the whole scenario quickly descends into anarchy, as unguided classes often do. Most teachers, IT teachers aside because by their nature they are ahead of the curve, will have a working knowledge - not a technical knowledge, just a working knowledge - in the basic suite of DTP and productivity tools, plus Internet Explorer and maybe Firefox and whatever other hand-picked apps the school has on their systems. To retrain an entire school of teachers so that they are up to speed with the foibles and intricacies of a whole new suite of apps is unrealistic to say the least, at the most entirely impossible especially if you have supply teachers, part-time or percentage teachers, or people who just aren't technologically minded. My mum is one of the latter; she can just about use a system if it's common everywhere, but a lot of what she does by her own admission is learnt by rote and reinforced through use both at school and at home. She is perhaps at more of a disadvantage than the current generation of schoolkids - she cannot think laterally to solve computing problems, she either has to be shown or be instructed. Kids on the other hand pick stuff up far more easily (there's the old family story of how at 18 months old, I figured out how to turn on an Apple ][e, its printer and its external SCSI hard drive one morning just by watching my Dad the day before... Appparently I was sitting there using Paint 8) The point behind that (true!) story was that kids seem to be able to pick new stuff up far more quickly than the adults who are supposedly teaching them! And that's the massive problem facing any school that even wants to consider migrating the vast majority of its computers away from an established, well understood platform and OS, be they proprietary or not. ... I hope that some of these new build schools sieze the opportunity and set their systems up with a good chunk of FOSS though! - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
Although this rant is impassioned and detailed it's almost comically misinformed. What's happening in education IT(C) is the imposition of a £45bn corporate cash cow called Building Schools for the Future (BSF) - through which the government is shamefully entering into yet more PFI relationships. The scorched earth Christopher suggests is impossible is already happening as more than 20 local authorities have struck deals with managed IT service suppliers such as RM under BSF. As a consequence local control, flexibility and in-school knowledge about IT services is evaporating. BSF schools will have what the supplier supports (essentially Microsoft) at prices determined by long-term monopoly contracts. The issue of Open Source remains important - Btw it is not true that OS is unknown in education - Moodle.org moodle.org/is a good example Christopher Woods wrote: Seen this in my mailbox a few times today, sure you will all find this interesting... We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/nonMSschools/ I find this idea appealing but fundamentally flawed. Let me explain why this concept is a non-starter for all but a few schools. I went through this country's education system and am currently in my final year at University, so it wasn't such a long time ago ;) It so happens that my Dad was the deputy head at the school I went to and he was also the only person who managed the school's entire IT infrastructure for a very long time. Yes, the school did eventually become a Technology College (thanks in part due to his hard work over the time he was there), and with that Technology College status they got a lot more money - they eventually got one, then two, then several members of dedicated IT staff - but for the most part it was him steering the boat as such. He did the lion's share of the administrative IT work as well, installing and maintaining SIMS, all the staff machines, equipment, etc. The bloke working in the Reprographics department managed the offset litho printer (yes, they had one!) and the photocopiers I think, but that was about it. So, during the best part of 14 years he was there for, my Dad oversaw and managed installations of, in order, an Acorn network with matching Econet system (remember the DINs and T-bars? :D), a gradual move from Acorn to 95 machines, then to 98 with more and more intricate networking infrastructure. He had little money and worked with what he had available to him within budgetary constraints him local and national suppliers. This meant that, by the time the school got proper wedges of funding for IT, the school already had a firmly established userbase of Windows 9x machines, gradually making the move to 2000 then to XP as time went on. Site licenses for educational software are costly, and I would put money on the fact that just about all educational software is still written solely for the Windows OS. Chicken and the egg scenario here, but if you want definitive figures just go to BETT and do some empirical research to find out. (I bet I'm right). Also, historical investment in infrastructure cannot be ignored, and quite often you have scenarios where you build up relationships with suppliers and distributors and so can secure good deals for all sorts of things. When you have limited manpower and man hours to maintain a network used all day every day by hundreds of students and staff alike, you can't afford to have 'exotic particles' introduced into even a closed loop system. Plus, there are so many other outside influences and requirements (right down to the cacheing systems many schools used back when ISDN was the only reality for connectivity, before the Grids for Learning were properly established) that you could not expect to have a system being migrated over to some bizarre and funky FOSS alternative OS. Aside from the fact that the suite of *de facto* software the students would use day in and day would need to be the same, in some cases the bloody curriculum demanded that particular software be used, so your hands were tied. Other times, it was a cost/benefit analysis. Sure, FOSS alternatives to CAD/CAM were available, I'm sure, but did they work as well as CAD/CAM, play nice with all the hardware the graphics and control tech departments had, AND fully support all the old work and files students had created? You can't just rip and replace in an educational scenario. Given that many schools' IT infrastructure development was so organic and self-funded throughout the 90s, they are now in the situation where it is almost completely impractical to start from scratch with a FOSS OS and FOSS software, making sure that interdependencies aren't broken, networking works as well (or as expected) as prior to the switch, and students - and staff alike - aren't 'de-familiarised' with the setup. With any major
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
On Monday 09 February 2009 17:32:58 Christopher Woods wrote: The main sticking point for most schools is the can we help students if... question. This is part of the issue that some people forget when they put their personal politics before the needs of children at school. If a tool undermines the teaching then it moves from a force for good into a force for bad. This goes as much for proprietary systems as it does for open systems. ie the reasons for change should be pedagogical rather than political. Michael. -- (personal views only) - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
On Mon, Feb 09, 2009 at 04:12:09PM -, Christopher Woods wrote: Aside from the fact that the suite of *de facto* software the students would use day in and day would need to be the same, in some cases the bloody curriculum demanded that particular software be used, so your hands were tied. At my school we had Acorns for general use (DTP etc), an ST for music composition, and a Beeb for handling the input from our radiotelescopes. I was happy with each of them (and did not have a computer at home to compare or learn on). There was no problem in using different computers for different purposes, each was the right tool for the job. So what's wrong with providing certain software where the curriculum prescribes it, perhaps on computers in the room or lab where that subject is taught, but the main suites could be running entirely open source solutions? And then if schools start to turn to open source, maybe the software prescribed by the curriculum will change as well. Schools should be preparing kids to go into the world. And open source is out there on desktops now. We should be looking forward to that, not back because that's how it's always been. -- Flash Bristow -Web Design Mastery -07939 579090 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Work: www.wdam.co.uk Personal: www.gorge.org - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
Although this rant is impassioned and detailed it's almost comically misinformed. What's happening in education IT(C) is the imposition of a £45bn corporate cash cow called Building Schools for the Future (BSF) - through which the government is shamefully entering into yet more PFI relationships. The scorched earth Christopher suggests is impossible is already happening as more than 20 local authorities have struck deals with managed IT service suppliers such as RM under BSF. As a consequence local control, flexibility and in-school knowledge about IT services is evaporating. BSF schools will have what the supplier supports (essentially Microsoft) at prices determined by long-term monopoly contracts. The issue of Open Source remains important - Btw it is not true that OS is unknown in education - Moodle.org is a good example Moodle is an unusual exception to the rule, and I think it's been as popular as it has become mostly due to the fact that it's web-based. People are already familiar with Intranets, and no two school intranets will be the same. FOSS is the king of web-based solutions for sure at the moment, especially when you have LEAs hacking it apart, hosting entire collections of resources on it and making it work very well for their own (vil! ;) ends. And moodling is a nice verb to slip into common parlance :) I wish there were more varieties of platforms in schools - my Uni currently has way more Macs than PCs, but that's another angry discussion I'm raring to have with the first person who foolishly puts their head above the parapet - but the sheer volume of computers that most schools have today almost requires that the common denominator is OS and platform. If you have 400-500 PCs, just keeping them all running smoothly is a sheer nightmare. This number can rise significantly if a school has more than 1,000 students and is well funded for ICT (most Technology College accredited schools will likely have at least 1 computer to every 3 people, my old school has almost 1 for every 2). When I was at primary school, our IT room had BBC Master systems, Acorns of all shapes and sizes (my own A3000 is still tucked away in the loft) and some IBM PCs. Every kid wanted to use the PCs because they had the best games on them (The Incredible Machine!) Of course, they weren't networked, secured or anything like school computers have to be these days, because those pesky kids will always sniff about trying to find holes in the system to get through. Given the added demands of policing the network at all times and a disparate set of platforms becomes a nightmare. Sure, you can get VNC for all major and minor platforms, and no doubt there are FOSS monitoring solutions out there - but most proprietary monitoring systems (that sit on the desktops and monitor keystrokes, take screengrabs etc) are for Windows, and the best-supported ones will be proprietary. My sixth form (at a different school) had that kind of monitoring software which also looked for keywords entered and disabled your username if you exceeded a threshold! That was a pain (the sysadmin knew me by how I knocked on the IT Support door after a few months). Oh, and I almost forgot... Once you've sorted everything else out, you then have to add in UK.gov policies, including its most recent creation, RIPA, dictating strict rules and policies for educational establishments to adhere to - and woe betide if you cross them and Mr. investigating officer doesn't like the cut of your jib or how you've handled the enquiry. So, compliant monitoring, data retention and archival becomes almost as key as providing a stable base for students and teachers. Although I don't have intimate knowledge of each and every solution I certainly get the feeling from what I've read and seen that most solutions either have to be completely bespoke or an off-the-shelf, proprietary solution... Which quite often will work on a proprietary OS. Reiterating the point I made earlier, and Michael picked up on, until all teachers are as au fait with every kind of platform and software as the kids are (or may be), there's no point forcing a move to FOSS, because the kids will be doing stuff the teachers can't even understand and it'll just waste everybody's time and money plus lower the quality of teaching. Who cares if MS is de facto in the school setting if it serves its purpose? Even if on the face of it FOSS could replace it, all that existing knowledge is gone because people have to relearn how to work the computers to a standard they were at before. A phased migration is the only workable solution, and even that becomes harder and harder when you have outsourced service and support from third parties as Neil mentioned. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
RE: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
Sorry for those who can't quite figure out what I'm quoting and what I'm saying myself in my previous email, when I converted to plaintext I forgot to add in the appropriate quote marks. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
Who cares if MS is de facto in the school setting if it serves its purpose?=20 Its purpose (as someone else pointed out quite eloquently) is to teach kids. I don't know how well MS software teaches anything other than how to use the previous version of MS software, a skill that at best devalued by the time you get into the workplace. Even if on the face of it FOSS could replace it, all that existing knowledge is go= ne because people have to relearn how to work the computers to a standard = they were at before.=20 For the average computer user this is their experience of upgrades to new versions of MS software. There is a bogus upgrade bait and switch cycle that keeps people upgrading their intel hardware, MS OS, and MS software to prevent them losing their investment in each when the next one is declared outmoded by the company that sells it. GNU/Linux can break the OS part of this cycle, and Dave has mentioned WINE. A phased migration is the only workable solution, and even that becomes harder and harder when you have outsourced service and sup= port from third parties as Neil mentioned. These third parties must remain competitive if they wish to continue to receive tax money. I allege that the advantages of switching to Free Software *can* outweigh the costs (sic) of support, teaching, and third party staff upgrading their skills to more open, flexible and studiable systems. ;-) - Rob. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
I allege that the advantages of switching to Free Software *can* outweigh the costs (sic) of support, teaching, and third party staff upgrading their skills to more open, flexible and studiable systems. ;-) I like the use of the word allege. Can you demonstrate it? Cheers, Rich. - Sent via the backstage.bbc.co.uk discussion group. To unsubscribe, please visit http://backstage.bbc.co.uk/archives/2005/01/mailing_list.html. Unofficial list archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/backstage@lists.bbc.co.uk/
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
Richard Lockwood wrote: I allege that the advantages of switching to Free Software *can* outweigh the costs (sic) of support, teaching, and third party staff upgrading their skills to more open, flexible and studiable systems. ;-) I like the use of the word allege. Can you demonstrate it? Sure. Give me control of the state budget for school IT... ;-) - Rob. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [backstage] Make the primary operating system used in state schools free and open source
Richard Lockwood wrote: I allege that the advantages of switching to Free Software *can* outweigh the costs (sic) of support, teaching, and third party staff upgrading their skills to more open, flexible and studiable systems. ;-) I like the use of the word allege. Can you demonstrate it? There is number of problems that prevent the wide use of Linux, Open Office and other open source applications. These are: * Microsoft offers the OS and Office at extremely competitive prices to schools. I have heard it quoted as being around £5 per license for Office. * Parents have an expectation that MS Office will be taught in the classroom as it is what they know and use in their work place. * The majority of schools have limited IT resources and might have limited experience of using and securing Linux and other open source software. They could be substantial costs in retraining staff. I totally agree that opensource has a great to offer schools with applications like Moodle, Audacity and many others, but currently I don't think many schools are ready for Linux/Ubuntu and OpenOffice. Its a shame BBC Jam was killed. That could have really improved the educational software market. Adam
