Dear David,
I think the passage is urging us to integrate new believers into our
community. I don't think the 'introducing' part was meant to be taken
literally. And you are correct that the present focus is on integrating even
seekers into our community life as early as is feasible. However I thi
Dear Mark,
If it is permantly down does this mean all our archives are gone?
warmest, Susan
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Dear friends,
Continuing on with my review of the articles in *Reason and Revelation*
would now like to discuss Christopher White's article "Prayer as
Remembrance."
warmest, Susan
Christopher White's article "Prayer as Remembrance" is perhaps more of an
inspirational and reflective piece than an
> Does anyone know how active David Kelly was in the Faith? I notice
> references to him being a pacifist, and attending meetings of a pacifist
> group on a regular basis. Did he realize that pacifism is not something
> Baha'is believe in?
Dear David,
David Kelly had only been a Baha'i for a fe
Continuing on with my review of Reason and Revelation:
Perhaps the richest essay in this collection is Frank Lewis' "Scripture as
Literature." Dr. Lewis argues that understanding the background of many of
the literary genre found in the Baha'i Writings can contribute immensely to
our knowledge of
This continues my review of articles from Reason and Revelation. Moojan's
article can be found online here:
http://www.breacais.demon.co.uk/BSR/Articles/2_Momen_Fundamentalism.htm
Moojan Momen's article "Fundamentalism and Liberalism" argues that these two
different approaches to religious questio
Dear friends,
Continuing on with my review of the book Reason and Revelation, this time I
am treating two article's together, Sholeh Quinn's article "The End of
History?" and Chistopher Buck's article regarding Native American
Manifestations. I think it will be clear why I'm placing those together
> The problem I have with this paper and most others on the subject is the
> assumption that fundamentalism is a pole with liberalism at the other
> end.
Dear Don,
That's why I proposed Fowlers's Stages of Faith as an alternative paradigm.
In that paradigm *both* liberals and fundamentalist would
> Why then will future Manifestations come?
So women can sit on the Universal House of Justice?
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Dear David,
Since I don't think there is anything in the Writings on this topic, I'm not
sure what any of us could say beyond expressing our personal opinion. It
sounds like it is more of a topic for Baha'i-Discuss than Baha'i Studies
which is focused on issues related to scholarship.
warmest, Su
> What you seem to be implying is that if fundamentalists would 'grow up',
> they would become liberals. I think there is a fair amount of research
> that bears on this issue. As people grow up, mature in their experience
> and thinking, they tend to become more conservative and relativistic.
De
Bryan Graham's article "Baha'i Approaches to Economics" surveys some of the
secondary Baha'i literature on the Baha'i Faith and economics. It seems
strange in this context, that the author ignored those articles which dealt
with Marxism and the Baha'i Faith until we realize that the Graham's conce
> Point taken. I guess the problem is that I don't know for sure what is in
> the Writings. I may overlook passages that explicitly answer a question.
Dear David,
Then perhaps the best approach would be to simply ask if there is anything
in the Writings specifically on the topic of courtship. W
> Susan,
> aren't Baha'i studies essentially about the dialogue between
> contemporary society and the Baha'i teachings?.
Dear Owen,
That is not the purpose of this list.
As our guidelines state: "The purpose of this list is to promote
scholarship, in particular academic scholarship, on the Baha
While I have no interest in finding out the reason, I
> find the action curious, for the reason that the House removed him from
the
> NSA but did not deprive him of his voting rights. I would have thought
that
> if a person were removed from an NSA deprivation of voting rights would go
> along wi
>
> I'm just wondering if historians have got any further in penetrating the
> obscurity since Shoghi Effendi wrote.
Dear David,
Ismael Velasco wrote a very nice post on the current stage of scholarship on
this topic entitled Reconstructing Ridvan a few years ago. Unfortunately it
is on my other
> Susan, I hadn't seen those guidelines.
> Owen
It doesn't hurt to post them. Usually they are sent out when someone
subscribes:
*List Guidelines*
1. Consultation, tolerance, and courtesy are encouraged.
All list members have a right to be treated respectfully,
regardless of their level of edu
> It's good of you to repost the list rules, Susan, especially as you
> yourself often post in html rich-text. (I'm sure inadvertently.)
>
Dear Alex,
My server is set up to send things out in plain text. However, if the person
I am responding to uses Rich-text it will sometimes respond in the sam
Dear friends,
I understand there is a letter from the Universal House of Justice which
contains a very strong critique against capitalism. It was written sometime
after the Promise of World Peace. Does anyone know where this letter can be
located?
warmest, Susan
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>
> It could be THE PROSPERITY OF HUMANKIND
No, this wasn't one of their major statements, it was a letter written to
some Baha'i economists who had questioned the House's critique of capitalism
in the Promise of World Peace.
warmest, Susan
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Dear Steve,
I can't seem to make that link work.
BTW folks, I've been gone all week so it make take me awhile to catch up on
all your email.
warmest, Susan
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> I'm just wondering where 'Abdu'l-Baha might be getting the idea that Mary
> Magdalene went to Rome. Is this in any tradition, or is this a matter of
> divine Revelation?
Dear David,
It is a part of church tradition:
"Holy Tradition testifies, that when the Apostles departed from Jerusalem
for
> I'm just wondering if there is anything in the Faith, like perhaps a
letter,
> bearing on the issue of what name to take when one marries.
Not to my knowledge, nor do I think there should be. This is a purely
cultural issue. Most women in most cultures keep their surnames after they
marry.
--
When I spoke to a
> Counsellor as to what I could say if asked about the composition of the
> House of Justice he said to say that we don't know, but that membership on
> the House of Justice is not a spiritual but administrative station.
Dear David,
But most religions have affirmed women's spi
If you can get a hold of JA and PJ Khan's
> Advancement of Women: A Baha'i Perspective, pp.122-134 is the longest
> "official" discussion yet published.
Dear Steve,
I don't think we should regard something written by an individual member of
the House has 'official.' When he writes a book of this
> Yes, women do not serve on the Universal House of Justice (they do vote
for
> it's members),
Dear Patti
That was true of *all* Baha'i administrative institutions in Iran until
1954.
but as 'Abdu'l-Baha writes (more of the quote is included
> below)--"There is Divine wisdom in this which will
" This "once removed" connection
keeps the reader engaged and challenged, without as much risk of offense."
Thanks, Khazeh. I didn't mean to imply the comic book was offensive like
Chic comic books, only that it used the same kinds of graphics as Jack Chic
comics do. Obviously, the content of th
"I suppose it would be poetic justice if males were to be exempted/excluded
from service on the Baha'i world's future Executive Body. And there is
support in the reported sayings of 'Abdu'l-Baha for the superiority of women
in governing. Just a thought."
Dear Vaughn,
I think it was once suggest
> I thought I'd take this opportunity to ask if there is some way one can
stop
> receving messages while still be subscribed to this list.
Yes, if you go to the website you will find a 'no-mail' option. You can then
read the mail from the archives and post as you wish, but you won't receive
anythi
"Then why not two single women or two single men, since single parents are
often at a financial disadvantage and have trouble finding adult supervision
of their children so they can sometimes get away?"
Dear Marlene,
I certainly don't have any problem with it, though I think preference should
be
> As I said, I cannot remember the wording specific enough as to whether
> it was "adoption" or "raising" children. The reason this so stuck in my
> mind was that it seemed to permit two people of the same sex to raise
> children together.
Dear Marlene,
Mothers and grandmothers do this tog
"Thanks. Does that mean it has the same status as a pilgrim note?"
Yes. Baha'i Scriptures included Pilgrim's Notes which is why Shoghi Effendi
did not wholly approve of the volume.
warmest, Susan
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>
> Hello, Susan.
> O.K. My point, which may have been obvious from my previous post,
> is that if Baha'u'llah was neither Nabi nor Rasul, if He was of a
different
> category,
Dear Timothy,
Perhaps but I wouldn't conclude that simply because Baha'u'llah didn't apply
these terms to Himself. N
Dear David,
I think Isaiah 53 applies to most of the Manifestations. But Thief in the
Night is a very dated book. There are much better ones such as those by
Michael Sours or Gary Matthews for introducing the Faith to Christians.
warmest, Susan
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> There was a book called, " The God of Budddha " published in the 1980's.
> Never obtained a copy myself but read a copy of a friend and I seem to
> remember reference to 'the unborn one', or 'uncreated one'.
Dear Owen,
The reference is to an unborn, an uncreated. No mention of a 'one.' They
d
> It might be interesting if anyone knows a source for the interpretations
> which started the Seventh Day Adventist Church to await the coming of
> christ in 1844.
Dear Owen,
Stricly speaking the Adventist church grew out of the disappointment of
1844. It was a break-off from the Millerite move
> She points out that al-Lah was the main god
> before the time of Muhammad. His holy place
> was at the Ka'aba. al-Lah had three daughters
> (banat al-Lah)
> who each had a holy place as well.
Dear Tom,
The Arab religion appears to have been derived from Mesopotamia where the
High God (the God
> On what in the Baha'i Writings is based the prediction "When the Supreme
> Tribunal merges with the House of Justice"?
Dear Vaugn,
It is based on a letter written on behalf of the Guardian.
>
> Also, I wonder if there are several possible interpretations of "merge",
> assuming this word occurs
Dear Owen,
I'm not suggesting that women can't get justice within the Baha'i system
because men are at the top. I am suggesting that having men only at the top
does have an important symbolic significance that can be disempowering to
women in other respects. I don't find the assertion that service
>
> Since most Buddhists don't believe in God, or that Buddha talked about
God,
> who are they praying to? Or is it just a personal development strategy?
Usually a form of the Buddha.
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> Self-praise is seen as a bad thing in the Baha'i Faith. We are to praise
> others, but not ourselves.
Dear David,
I think before we can have much of a discussion of this issue we need to
look at the Writings involved. What is your assertion above based on?
warmest, Susan
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> It is in Century of Light.
> Rich
>
Dear Rich,
No, I'm thinking of a letter written by the House in answer to some specific
individuals objections to their anti-capitalistic stance.
warmest, Susan
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> I would like to know if any of the American or European Baha'is of
> Abdu'l Baha's era had children who were also Baha'is. I'm thinking of
> Thornton Chase, Lua Getsinger, Howard MacNutt, Charles Greenleaf,
> Arthur Dodge, Isabella Brittingham, Fred Mortensen, John Esslemont,
> Robert Turner
" It is a Baha'i comic but it really looks (outwardly) like something
done by Jehovah's Witnesses. It has all these apocalyptic images in it and
one of the main characters features this huge gold cross around his neck."
Dear Matt,
It reminds me more of those Chic comic books produced by
> From comments you make later evidently you find some of this stuff quite
> reliable historically.
Dear David,
It may or may not be. My point is simply that 'Abdu'l-Baha doesn't pick this
kind of thing out of the air.
I'm quite well informed regarding documents within
> two centuries of Jesus'
> For centuries Arab Christians have been praying in the Basilica of the
> Nativity in Bethlehem, and the Basilica of the Annunciation in Nazareth.
> My question is, haven't they -- Catholics and other Christian
> denominations -- been calling on God with the Arabic word "Allah?" Aren't
> they doi
My understanding is that al-Lah was at one point one of many gods,
Dear Tom,
Al is a direct article while lah is a
generic term for God. But so is el.
warnest, Susan
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"The traditions established the fact that in all Dispensations the law of
prayer hath constituted a fundamental element of the Revelation of all the
Prophets of God-- a law the form and the manner of which hath been adapted
to the varying requirements of every age." (Baha'u'llah, Kitab-i-Iqan,
Wr
> Yes, I know about using fingers to count, and I do have
> a beautiful set of prayer beads my wife made for me.
> Even with those, counting is sometimes distracting.
Dear Timothy,
I'm not sure I understand.The whole purpose of prayer beads is so you don't
have to count, you just finger the b
> As I understand it, the Quran refers to minor Prophets as Nabi
(warner),
> and Prophets who bring a book as Rasul. Isaiah and Daniel are examples of
> Nabi,
> while Moses, Jesus and Muhammad are Rasul.
Dear Timothy,
I wouldn't get too hung up with these categories. They refer to functions,
> "Of course I cannot ut agree with its proofs and evidences."
>
> should read
> **Of course I cannot but agree with its proofs and evidences.**
I was trying to figure out what you were disagreeing with. ;-}
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"Am I understanding correctly that you are expressing a -greater concern-
that women would not be in a position of authority to determine the process
of weaving the social fabric of the future human society? Or put another
way... participation without representation??"
Dear Samdra,
Not exactly.
***A high degree of enthusiasm and a strong sense of ownership are also
characteristics of clusters ready to embark on an intensive program of
growth. ***
More or less I can recognize enthusiasm but what does *ownership* refer to?
Dear Khazeh,
"Ownership" in this context means that we take person
> Since you are the second person who has called me up on this, evidently I
> was unclear. I mean that in light of everything in the Writings the
> exclusion of women *should not* be a big deal. It is, though.
>
Dear David,
I think the reason it is two-fold.
1) Since we are talking about the *
> I can swear I remember a letter written by Shoghi Effendi or written on >
his behalf that said something to the effect that if two people wished
> to enter into some kind of an agreement involving the adoption or
> raising of children that it was permissible. Or could it have been
> 'Abdu'l-Baha
Both Lua Getsinger and
> Ethel Rosenberg remained single
Whoops, I was thinking of Juliet Thompson. ;-}I'm pretty sure Lua didn't
have any children either. There was a nephew who subsequently became a
Knight of Baha'u'llah.
warmest, Susan
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Dear David,
Can I ask you to create subject headings which reflect the specific question
you are raising. Simply putting up 'question' isn't much help in tracing
threads.
warmest, Susan
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That's a
> doctrinal issue, and even Shoghi Effendi didn't try to provide an
> explanation when asked, so I wouldn't expect the House to do more.
Dear David,
It is more an issue of Baha'i law than doctrine. But it is primarily
'Abdu'l-Baha who didn't give us much of an explanation to go on.
I
> No, I mean 'properly' published in a book, visible to the bahai community
if
> nothing else,as opposed to unpublished conference presentations,
photocopied
> notes mailed all over the world or internet musings and such like. That is
> precisely why I quoted the word 'official' to avoid your very
> Any behavior or action by a woman which she knows is likely to elicit
> a sexual response by a man who is not her husband is, in my opinion,
> sexual activity outside marriage and therefore prohibited under Baha'i
> law. Too many women seem to believe that it is not sexual until a man
> makes hi
> I didn't say "whatever *might*", I said "knows is likely". There's a
> big difference.
Dear Don,
Such things are culturally determined. In the Islamic world not being fully
covered is likely to arouse a man. Yet for women to restrict themselves this
way has been clearly detrimental to their d
> Isn't there something in the Writings about that? ;-)
" And if he met the fairest and most comely of women, he would not feel his
heart seduced by the least shadow of desire for her beauty. Such an one,
indeed, is the creation of spotless chastity. Thus instructeth you the Pen
of the Ancient of
>
> 2. Shoghi Effendi wrote:
>
> "Masturbation is clearly not a proper use of the sex instinct, as this is
> understood in the Faith. Moreover it involves, as you have pointed out,
> mental fantasies, while Baha'u'llah, in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, has exhorted us
> not to indulge our passions and in on
>
> I have only attended a couple of the annual meetings of the ABS in Canada,
> but in both cases only members of the Association could vote or be voted
> for in the election of the executive.
Dear David,
My understanding is that the members of the Executive Committee are
appointed by the Canadi
> Please don't keep us in suspense. What did the Bab say? Do you have a
> quote?
Dear Marlene,
It's a provisional translation.
"God forgiveth you your nocturnal emissions and masturbation. But know ye
the value of your seed, for your seed is the cause of the creation of one
who worshippet
What do we
> propose next, banning all PG-14 movies?
Most definitely. Can't have PG-14 movies. ;-}
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"By "the exquisite place" could the Bab possibly have been
referring to a specific part of the female anatomy, in which the "seed" might
bear fruit?"
Uh, that's not
the place I had in mind.
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> What exactly do they seem to be looking for in making the appointments?
And
> why is it just the Canadian NSA who makes the appointments? Because they
> have less work than the US NSA? Has anyone on this list been on the
> Executive Committee before?
Dear David,
Canada started the ABS and wh
"I swear by God and I say this most solemnly.
you are losing focus by discussing so much on sex and matters related to
sex."
I have to agree with Khazeh here. We do seem to losing our focus.
warmest, Susan
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Dear David,
If you make your posts a little more succinct, I think you will find they
are more likely to be read. Usually you give us more detail than we need.
However, in this portion you didn't explain yourself:
> After this I found the material fine for some time. Section 4, question 5
> was
> What concerned me was the almost Calvinist tone this discussion was
taking on.
> Who wears what, and when ? I also don't think this list is an appropriate
forum
> for this discussion.
Dear Rich,
That was one problem. I think the other problem is that we were getting blow
by blow accounts of
> "O Lord, Thou hast ordained the family to be the basic social unit.
Dear Larry,
Somehow this doesn't sound like 'Abdu'l-Baha to me.
warmest, Susan
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Baha'
What I would like to know
> is whether, when the world is Baha'i, such titles will still be used for
> kings.
Dear David,
I know of nothing in the Writings that explicitly indicates that there won't
be.
Surely a title such as "Your Eminence," in capitals no less, would
> denote superiority of
The Writings endow the Universal House of Justice
> with "legislative, executive and judicial powers." (The Universal House of
> Justice, "Constitution of the Universal House of Justice," p. 8)
Dear Brent,
You state the "Writings" bestow the House of Justice with these powers but
what you quote
> That is, each word of
> the Constitution describing a power of the House rests squarely on a verse
> in the Writings.
Dear Brent,
Where does it say that?
> I am really not sure what the intent of your post was.
Well, as you know I am very persnickety when it comes to things people say
are in
"Yes, but, in a decentralised 3 level federal system its not hard
to imagine that
one can have a world level legislative institution whose legal
will is principally
executed/administered by the national units. Likewise the National
legislative
institution exe
"The believer having the responsibility to obey. As this
obedience is not blind, (as the statements of the Administrative Order
by Shoghi Effendi recognises), but an obedience that comes from our own
personal love of God, from our covenant with God, then a spiritual
dynamic is created in which beli
""24 seats" 19 Letters of the LIving, the Bab, Siyyid Kazim, Sheikh
Amad, and what two others?"
Vakil ul-Dawlih, was another one, the final one has yet to be identified.
warmest, Susan
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> Blind obedience is when there is no attempt to understand the processes
> behind a ruling or a law.
Dear Owen,
The reason I asked is that you indicated that it wasn't blind obedience
because it comes from the love of God. That's not the same as attempting to
understand the processes behind a
Dear friends,
I am saddened to announce the passing of Vinson Jamir who was an active
participant on this list a couple of years ago. Please remember him and his
family in your prayers.
warmest, Susan
NORTH AUGUSTA, S.C. -Funeral services for Mr. Vinson Jamir, 52, of Audubon
Circle, North August
Dear Brent,
Oridinarily I would agree with you about the weakness of utilizing a
pilgrim's note. But in this case the pilgrim's note in question merely
elucidates what the Will and Testament itself said regarding the the fact
that the legislative powers of the House of Justice were different from
- Original Message -
From: "Gary L. Matthews" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Bridges" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "Translation" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Bridges"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Dr. Khazeh Fananapazir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
"Joyce Maneck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Nizam & Joyce Maneck"
<[EMAIL PROTECT
And in New
> Mexico, the violent crime rate is actually still *10 times* what it
> was in 1960, tho down about 10% from its peak in the late 90's.
> Brent perception of what's going on in his area is correct.
Dear Don,
But Brent it talking about an increase in the last two or three years. You
are
> I would like to raise an issue I have been thinking about for some time,
> which is whether we can do anything about the major problems that can be
> seen in many Baha'i young people (pre-youth and youth) today.
Dear David,
I think this would be a more appropriate topic for Baha'i Discuss. Th
> And these days, TV doesn't pass the smell test. What passes for garments
> for teenagers these days don't, either. Evidence? It's all around.
Dear Brent,
My observation is that neither TV or clothing is all that worse than when
you and I were young. The cartoons were certainly more violent t
My
> former consitutional law professor, Justice Anthony Kennedy now on the US
> Supreme Court (then on the 9th Circuit with Dorothy Nelson), a devoted
> Catholic, a man highly sensitive to the impact of a statement of a justice
> in a formal opinion, has just opened the door to homosexual marriage
- Original Message -
From: "Dr. Christopher Buck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Susan Maneck" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: "William Collins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Sholeh A Quinn"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, September 04, 20
> "Buck concludes his essay by arguing that while it may not be possible
> to add specific names to the list of officially acknowledged prophets
> still Baha'i authorities might consider affirming the principle that
> Messengers of God have appeared in the Americas. It strikes me that
> Chris Buck
> What does this mean in regard to the next Manifestation, who will have to
> present Himself to the House of Justice?
Dear David,
The only thing I presume about the coming of the next Manifestation is that
it won't be as we expect it.
> I thought all Manifestations were supposed to come from th
"I thought there was a passage in Gleanings which states that all of the
Prophets have come from the Holy Land. Of course, this may not preclude
Messengers."
Dear Matt,
What's the Holy Land?
warmest, Susan
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Title: Message
"I
think what needs to be identified in questions like this, is what is the
underlying cause of both recognising and not recognising the Manaifestation of
God. This is an eternal question. East - west and any prophetic aspects are
related to the era that has now gone by. But t
"Perhaps the next manifestation will come from California"
Just so long as She's from Santa Cruz and not LA. ;-}
Oh, wait a minute Manifestations are supposed to appear in the worst places,
not the best. How about San Bernardino?
warmest, Susan
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I guess, then, that if
> female pronouns had been used, such would prove that the next
Manifestation
> would be female?
Dear David,
It would certainly be a strong indication. But I've never know the
scriptures to make it that easy. ;-}
warmest, Susan
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> I'm fairly sure I have heard that there is no actual term for separate
> gender in Persian? Is this true? If so this could have a bearing on the
> discussion?
Dear Michael,.
That's correct. But we have been citing texts that were written in Arabic
which insists on gender.
warmest, Susan
> "THE BLESSED state of California bears the utmost similarity to the Holy
> Land, that is, the country of Palestine.
Dear David,
Muhammad wasn't from Palestine. Niether was Zoroaster, Krishna, Buddha, the
Bab or Baha'u'llah.
warmest, Susan
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Message
"But there is a spiritual trap in the academic approach to spiritual
matters, is there not?"
Dear Owen,
It is not a question of a 'trap.' Academic methodologies are tools that
exist for specific purposes. When applied to the proper 'job' they do well.
But there are certain jobs they aren'
> If we were to take this as an accurate statement of a limitation on the
> nature and powers of the National and Universal House of Justice, how
> would we reconcile this with the Guardian's statement to the US NSA about
> "the relations that should be maintained between the central
> administrati
> The following authentic passage might be read to indicate that the
> Manifestation has always come from the East,
Dear David,
Part of the problem here may be that the same word can be used in Arabic to
mean Dawning-point or East.
warmest, Susan
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> I remember reading a quotation by Shoghi Effendi or written on his behalf
> stating that paying off one's debts comes before contributing to the Fund.
> I cannot find it. Does anyone know of it? All the ones I have been able to
> find are the following. Thank you, Loni Bramson
Dear Loni,
I th
> Further on this issue, I happened to think of how in Iran there is a
secret
> underground Baha'i university. Aren't the Baha'is in Iran being
disobedient
> to their government in having this? If they didn't feel they were being
> disobedient it wouldn't be kept under wraps.
Dear David,
There
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