Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Em 17/02/2021 14:44, Michael Staats escreveu: On 17/02/2021 13:14, Martin Straeten wrote: "Really, I cannot understand why we cannot have a tab on which any USER can list his/her preferred modules and can order them as per his/her preferred workflow" thats quite easy - because none of those

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Currently I am scanning many hundreds, soon to be thousands of images and films. DT can do a great with most of the processing but auto levels in GIMP tends to work better at correcting the final colors than the RGB levels module in DT. Also with GIMP once the auto level is applied you have the

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

On Fri, 19 Feb 2021 at 15:29, Terry Pinfold wrote: > I am really impressed with Rawttherapee but the lack of localised adjustments > is a huge negative for me. Then check out https://rawpedia.rawtherapee.com/Local_Adjustments And also the ART fork, which supports drawn and parametric masks:

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

True Terry, I think I can agree with everything you wrote :), including the sometimes necessary combo DT + Gimp. Sometimes I was so involved with an image in DT, editing much too long, that when I saw the exported image I was not satisfied at all. Opening it in Gimp and applying auto levels

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

For me the ability to do localised adjustments with the drawn masks using the paths tool and the ability to then feather this mask to get invisible transitions is what wins me over to Darktable. I am really impressed with Rawttherapee but the lack of localised adjustments is a huge negative for

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

I own licences for Lightroom and the whole suite of Adobe products. I choose Darktable as my preferred editing program because it is so good. I especially love the drawn masks option using the path tool and then the ability to feather the result after the fact to get invisible transitions. On

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

The pixel pipe order is critical and should not be hidden. But for most users and most images the default order is fine. I can give an example of why I change the pixel pipe order. I use Filmic to get the basic look to my image, but then would like to tweak the contrast a little using curves. RGB

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

On jeudi 18 février 2021 09:54:21 CET Andreas Herold wrote: (...) > In my opinion, the user needs to have a model of the functionality in his > mind. The current discussion is in my opinion an indicator, that DT has > here some room for improvement. Darktable, or its users? The pixel pipe and

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

> Am 18.02.2021 um 06:20 schrieb Bill Wohler : > > Andreas Herold wrote: > >>> Am 17.02.2021 um 06:40 schrieb Bill Wohler : >>> >>> How about a preference to sort the module lists by a) alphabetical b) >>> pixel pipe? I just wish the lists were alphabetical so that they would >>> appear in

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

I would be happy to pay for a Linux alternative!!! I used Aftershot Pro for a few years, but development stopped and image quality was poor, but using it was a joy and it was very fast. Op 17-02-2021 om 11:07 schreef Martin Straeten: If you're just looking for a free/linux Lightroom

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

It is really easy to manage which modules are shown and you can create presets that only show the modules you most use. Then you can use the 'search module' feature to find less used modules that you have not included in your preset. I might be the odd man out here, but I am very happy with the

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Andreas Herold wrote: > > Am 17.02.2021 um 06:40 schrieb Bill Wohler : > > > > How about a preference to sort the module lists by a) alphabetical b) > > pixel pipe? I just wish the lists were alphabetical so that they would > > appear in well-known places and be easier to find. > > > > I would

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

I have followed this thread with a somewhat bemused attitude.  There have been comments, coming from both sides of the discussion, that are somewhat jaundiced in the viewpoint expressed.  Being a former programmer and application architecture developer, I thought it may be helpful to consider some

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

On mercredi 17 février 2021 17:39:23 CET Maurizio Paglia wrote: > First of all I desire to point out it was not my intention to be rude or > blame nobody. > Nevertheless the reply " that's quite easy - because none of those who want > this feature become > active, fork the code and simply

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Moreover, I was ready to learn a little of Lua in order to see If I can implement this feature myself, but Lua cannot be used in darkroom mode... Maurizio Il giorno mer 17 feb 2021 alle ore 17:39 Maurizio Paglia ha scritto: > First of all I desire to point out it was not my intention to be

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

First of all I desire to point out it was not my intention to be rude or blame nobody. Nevertheless the reply " that's quite easy - because none of those who want this feature become active, fork the code and simply implement the stuff ... " is really impolite. I cannot write C and cannot start

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

it's not just a couple of days - that's just the effort needed to mess up the UI ;) you can get an idea on the effort spent just to make module groups customizable by counting commits ( https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/commits/master/src/libs/modulegroups.c) then you might imagine the

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

How about a preference to sort the module lists by a) alphabetical b) pixel pipe? I just wish the lists were alphabetical so that they would appear in well-known places and be easier to find. I would say that a majority of the users love, love, love the developers and the software, but don't care

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 at 13:04, Guillermo Rozas wrote: >> >> why an ordered list starts at >> the botttom and goes up, unlike any ordered list you're likely to come >> across in daily life! > > Any layer-based program goes from bottom to top, with the base image at the > bottom and things applied

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

On 17/02/2021 13:14, Martin Straeten wrote: > "Really, I cannot understand why we cannot have a tab on which any USER > can list his/her preferred modules and can order them as per his/her > preferred workflow" > > thats quite easy - because none of those who want this feature become > active,

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

> > why an ordered list starts at > the botttom and goes up, unlike any ordered list you're likely to come > across in daily life! > Any layer-based program goes from bottom to top, with the base image at the bottom and things applied on top of it (and let's not get into node-based programs...).

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 8:37 AM Maurizio Paglia wrote: > Really, I cannot understand why we cannot have a tab on which any USER can > list his/her preferred modules and can order them as per his/her preferred > workflow. > There have been several answers touching on this in this thread. You

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

"Really, I cannot understand why we cannot have a tab on which any USER can list his/her preferred modules and can order them as per his/her preferred workflow" thats quite easy - because none of those who want this feature become active, fork the code and simply implement the stuff ... Am Mi.,

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Hey Rahl, I have just received two messages in a row to the list from you, but no comment from you has been made. Did you have something to write or was it a "pocket dial"? Andrew On 17/2/21 10:51 pm, rahl wrote: On Wed, 2021-02-17 at 09:34 +0100, Kneops wrote: I started this

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

On Wed, 2021-02-17 at 09:34 +0100, Kneops wrote: > I started this topic/conversation about the GUI, but at first it was > just a question, if the order could be changed to make it feel more > logical and pleasant to me to work with. I now understand the > reasoning > behind this and that it

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Hi all, I desire to let you have my opinion about this matter. In the past I pushed a lot to have this feature. Together with me many other USERS did the same... Really, I cannot understand why we cannot have a tab on which any USER can list his/her preferred modules and can order them as per

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

@Martin > I didn't say the developers aren't photographers. I know that some are colour scientists. And I didn't say anything about Lightroom. If some of the developers are professional GUI designers, I'm sorry I didn't know that. On Wed, 17 Feb 2021 at 10:07, Martin Straeten wrote: > > Thats

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Thats nonsense. The darktable developers are not just linux developers but also photographers with much more experience in color science than most usual Lightroom users. This experience is manifestated in darktable. If you're just looking for a free/linux Lightroom alternative then you're on the

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

@Kneops > You are raising a genuine issue. Linux applications – dt included – are built by some trully brilliant programmers; but they aren't GUI designers. The GUIs in free software often grow by accretion, user-feedback, design adjustments forced by software developments, and agreements between

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

I started this topic/conversation about the GUI, but at first it was just a question, if the order could be changed to make it feel more logical and pleasant to me to work with. I now understand the reasoning behind this and that it should not be changed. But underneath there is more I must

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Hi Ricardo, I think that your characterizations may be a bit harsh. I would like to tell you about an interview on Parkinson (a British TV show where various celebrities were invited to share aspects of their lives). On this occasion Parkinson had invited Yehudi Menuhin and Stephane

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

"Changing the GUI is just not a priority to improve Darktable." +1 "Kudos to the developers."+1 Terry Pinfold said "It is interesting that this topic generated so much conversation and even stirred up so much emotion. Darktable is an alternative program created generously by unpaid

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

It is interesting that this topic generated so much conversation and even stirred up so much emotion. Darktable is an alternative program created generously by unpaid developers. They have taken a revolutionary approach to develop a creative method of processing and editing not only Raw files, but

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

> Message du 15/02/21 20:09 > De : "Guillermo Rozas" > A : "darktable-user" > Copie à : > Objet : Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible? > > >> But, why not allow the user to create a tab with aliases to the original &g

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Can someone please unsubscribe me from this list? I tried the automated unsubscribe twice, and after confirming, nothing happened and I still get emails. Thanks, Nick On Mon, 2021-02-15 at 22:24 +0100, KOVÁCS István wrote: > On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 20:37, Urs Schütz wrote: > > @kneops > > My

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

+1 On 16/02/2021 15:21, parafin wrote: On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:33:17 + "Ricardo Kozmate.Net" wrote: I also note that image editing is a technical but also an artistic task, giving 'the artist' as much freedom to follow their flow intuition as possible is a good thing. That's actually

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

+1 Am 16. Februar 2021 16:21:37 MEZ schrieb parafin : >On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:33:17 + >"Ricardo Kozmate.Net" wrote: > >> I also note that image editing is a technical but also an artistic >task, >> giving 'the artist' as much freedom to follow their flow intuition as > >> possible is a good

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

On Tue, 16 Feb 2021 14:33:17 + "Ricardo Kozmate.Net" wrote: > I also note that image editing is a technical but also an artistic task, > giving 'the artist' as much freedom to follow their flow intuition as > possible is a good thing. That's actually the main disagreement point -

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Em 16/02/2021 01:20, Guillermo Rozas escreveu: On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 21:52 Ricardo Kozmate.Net > wrote: Comparing to masks' order in GIMP is silly, that was not the point, I presume. Compare it to GIMP allowing to order the tools in the toolbox, as it

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Em 16/02/2021 01:20, Guillermo Rozas escreveu: > This list can be a good first step to explore an idea Agreed, I thank you, and some others, for explainig and discussing the ideia, but I also I note the first 3 out of 4 replies: «If you want to use darktable "intuitively" you need to learn

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

The bottom up order makes sense since in a larger list of modules the modules for the color and tonal correction are usually in the upper visible part of the screen; the mandatory modules usually not needing tweaks or to be modified just once at the beginning of editing are in the invisible

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Currently, it works just fine. More complication we do not need. On 2021-02-15 5:26 p.m., William Ferguson wrote: There is another side to this discussion that's not been considered. The devs don't just build features. They also provide documentation, tech support, education, videos, and bug

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Please keep the answers to the list. And I hope I was not the intended recipient of the message as I'm not a developer and certainly I'm not aggressive at all. Best regards, Guillermo On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 22:26 Terry Pinfold wrote: > Yes some, not all, of the developers can be a bit

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

There is another side to this discussion that's not been considered. The devs don't just build features. They also provide documentation, tech support, education, videos, and bug fixing. Let's say they implement a feature so the user can configure the GUI with any module order they would like,

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

On Mon, Feb 15, 2021, 21:52 Ricardo Kozmate.Net wrote: > Comparing to masks' order in GIMP is silly, that was not the point, I > presume. > Compare it to GIMP allowing to order the tools in the toolbox, as it does. > No. Gimp's toolbox is not comparable because each tool there is independent of

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

DT is a really fine app. It would be even better, in my opinion, if it allowed users to use it in a way that feels comfortable to each user. Allowing to sort the modules *on the GUI* feels like a reasonable request. I would like to. Comparing to masks' order in GIMP is silly, that was not

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

When the darktable developers call the pixel pipeline a "stack" that is an arbitrary term they have chosen. It is a techie term, for sure. But applying modules in the pipeline would be better described as a sequential series of processing steps. There is no implied "direction" other than

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

* Patrick Shanahan [02-15-21 18:19]: > * DougC [02-15-21 17:20]: > > You are correct that most visual processes, especially writing, move from > > top to bottom. Having the stack grow from bottom to top is part of the > > "techie" nature of darktable. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Mon,

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

* DougC [02-15-21 17:20]: > You are correct that most visual processes, especially writing, move from top > to bottom. Having the stack grow from bottom to top is part of the "techie" > nature of darktable. > > > > > > On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:24:51 -0500 KOVÁCS István > wrote >

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

You are correct that most visual processes, especially writing, move from top to bottom. Having the stack grow from bottom to top is part of the "techie" nature of darktable. On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 16:24:51 -0500 KOVÁCS István wrote On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 20:37, Urs Schütz

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

I really love the way that Darktable is transparent about the order of the pipeline being applied. You can choose to use modules in whichever order you want , but Darktable then processes them in the logical order determined by the developers with the aim of producing the best result. However,

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 20:37, Urs Schütz wrote: > @kneops > My two cents: > Darktable pipelines work from bottom to top. [...] > The developers choosed "from bottom to top" I think it may be reasonable to add an option to flip the visual order (so not completely free reordering, just a boolean

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 at 18:30, Jean-Luc CECCOLI wrote: > But, why not allow the user to create a tab with aliases to the original > modules, which would never be altered whatever the alias tab displays ? > When the user needs to see what is really happening, he goes back to the > main tab, and

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

to be forked if somebody will spent a lot of time to implement a different ui. > Am 15.02.2021 um 19:31 schrieb Jean-Luc CECCOLI : > >  >> >> Message du 15/02/21 18:00 >> De : "DougC" >> A : "darktable-user" >> Copie à : >>

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

> > But, why not allow the user to create a tab with aliases to the original > modules, which would never be altered whatever the alias tab displays ? > When the user needs to see what is really happening, he goes back to the > main tab, and when he wants to work according to his taste, he uses

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

I am wary of asking the devs to add another layer of complexity to the interface. Every method of allowing users to customize their interface adds: complexity, new points of failure, another aspect new users will have to learn, and more features that fewer people will care for. I hope the devs

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

> Message du 15/02/21 18:00 > De : "DougC" > A : "darktable-user" > Copie à : > Objet : Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible? > > That thread helps my understanding a lot! Thank you. > > My conclusion is that allowing a manual

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

That thread helps my understanding a lot! Thank you. My conclusion is that allowing a manual sort order in a module tab in the GUI would make it difficult to implement other changes that are under consideration. To me, that is a good argument. On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 11:34:53 -0500

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

On Mon, Feb 15, 2021 at 1:01 PM DougC wrote: > This is exactly my position, as well. Is there a good argument against it? > You may want to read this, which touches the subject on a (much) smaller case: https://github.com/darktable-org/darktable/issues/7841

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

The best argument against is the absence of a fork having this and being used by more users than plain old darktable ;) > Am 15.02.2021 um 17:02 schrieb DougC : > >  > This is exactly my position, as well. Is there a good argument against it? > > > > On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 10:56:41 -0500

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Even for the favorite list (it’s just a user defined collection of modules) it’s useful to know what you’re doing: changing the parameters of a lower module affects the upper, especially when using parametric masks. So there’s really no benefit in having a list of stuff where transparency of

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

This is exactly my position, as well. Is there a good argument against it? On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 10:56:41 -0500 Michael Staats wrote My 2 cents: I think most people do not want to mess with the internal pipeline, they just expect that the right thing happens when they switch on

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

On 15/02/2021 15:54, Kneops wrote: > That is a very good example! :) > > 1. > > Pixelpipeline/module order/background operations in DT: > First the socks, then the shoes. > > 2. > > Me: > First I choose which shoes to wear today, than I go look for soms socks > that fit with the shoes, if I can

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

That is a very good example! :) 1. Pixelpipeline/module order/background operations in DT: First the socks, then the shoes. 2. Me: First I choose which shoes to wear today, than I go look for soms socks that fit with the shoes, if I can find them. So I do not want to mess up the very

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Thank you, Patrick.  It helps to know where to look.  (RTFM, Willy!) Willy -- "You don't take a picture. You ask quietly and humbly to borrow it." - Unknown -- On 2/15/21 9:28 AM, Patrick Shanahan wrote: * Willy Williams [02-15-21 09:25]: I have to wonder if there's a

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Well as a complete newbie to dt who hasn't got much beyond importing images, I think it's ridiculous and outrageous that the developers refuse to please all of the people all of the time :-) On 15/02/2021 14:28 Patrick Shanahan wrote:

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

I’m not a developer and in my opinion it is very easy to understand the concept of pipeline. The „design of the pipeline“ (which I interpret as order of modules) is determined by yourself (move up, move down, new instance) and by some border conditions. These conditions can be seen as popup,

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

* Willy Williams [02-15-21 09:25]: > I have to wonder if there's a publicly-available document that outlines the > reasons for the pipe to be as it is such that those of us users that are not > developers can understand the pipe and appreciate the thinking that went > into the design of the pipe?

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

And no one wants to take that away from you! The request was to allow a user to add a custom tab where the order of the modules is different. The request does NOT change the default view, nor the order of pipeline processing at all! On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 09:18:13 -0500 Andreas Herold

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

I have to wonder if there's a publicly-available document that outlines the reasons for the pipe to be as it is such that those of us users that are not developers can understand the pipe and appreciate the thinking that went into the design of the pipe? Willy Williams -- "You don't take a

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

I want to say, that I could not use DT any longer, if I’m not able to see the pipeline order in the GUI. For me the visible order of modules has just the purpose to reflect the pipeline order. > Am 15.02.2021 um 15:08 schrieb DougC : > > You are simply saying you would not find this useful,

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

You are simply saying you would not find this useful, but actually problematic for you. That is not a good reason to prevent another user from adding a custom module view to their GUI that does this. On Mon, 15 Feb 2021 08:40:44 -0500 Andreas Herold wrote I’m a normal user and

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Hi, I’m a normal user and no developer. For me it would be the worst thing ever, if the order of modules displayed in the GUI would not reflect the pipeline order. The output of one module is the input of another. If I change parameters, I have to know which other modules might be affected

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

* DougC [02-15-21 08:36]: > This is NOT a request to change the pipeline order, as some have wrongly > responded. > > > > I do not understand why the devs who have responded to this request are so > adamantly against it. They have yet to actually say why this is a problem. > > > > Why

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Ah okay, so that kind of ordering can be done anyway. I will experiment then. Op 15-02-2021 om 14:09 schreef Terry Pinfold: Hi,     it is very easy to order the pipeline. The developers have determined the way they feel it works best for most workflows, but I find that at times I want or

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Hi, it is very easy to order the pipeline. The developers have determined the way they feel it works best for most workflows, but I find that at times I want or need to reorder the pipeline. It is so easy. Just use Ctrl + Shift to drop and drag the modules. For instance when I use Filmic RGB I

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

I'm sorry, I do understand why this is important and cannot and should not be changed! But what I do not understand is why the visual order in the Darkroom cannot be changed. As I see it from a visual/users point of view is that they are like menu items, independent from the actual order in

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Le lundi 15 février 2021 à 13:30 +0100, Kneops a écrit : > Okay. This has nothing to do by the way from what I used to do with > other tools, Then use another tool. > it's the way imho the mind and the eye works. When I open > an image and it is too dark or too bright, I want to correct that

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Okay. This has nothing to do by the way from what I used to do with other tools, it's the way imho the mind and the eye works. When I open an image and it is too dark or too bright, I want to correct that first. Then I see it is a bit too yellow, then I want to correct that. Then perhaps

Re: [darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

the pipeline is the only existing logical order; all other possible orders are just workflow stuff - without any generalizable logical context. Your "intuitively" refers to a workflow you're used from other tools. If you want to use darktable "intuitively" you need to learn about darktables

[darktable-user] Still no GUI module order possible?

Trying DT again I notice that I cannot reorder the modules, except when they also have an effect on the order in the pipeline. Intuitevely I work from top to bottom, exposure, white balance, contrast, then cropping etc. and at the end things like sharpening and vignetting. Now the modules