Re: [DNSOP] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8552 (7064)

2022-08-03 Thread John R. Levine
On Wed, 3 Aug 2022, Dave Crocker wrote: Original Text - | URI| _acct | [RFC6118] | Corrected Text -- | URI| _acct | [RFC7566] | In Spring, 2018 and again in Fall, 2018, there was some focused discussion (see: 

Re: [DNSOP] [EXT] Re: draft-schanzen-gns and draft-ietf-dns-alt-tld

2022-08-08 Thread John R Levine
It is not a viable choice outside of a few nerds who are fully capable of getting a browser plug-in to handle gns:// URIs. Which would still allow all DNS parsing libraries to be used on the names. Sufficiently motivated people seem able to install whatever it is you need to browse through To

Re: [DNSOP] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8552 (7064)

2022-08-08 Thread John R. Levine
So, just to be clear, I'm approving all of these errata, yes? That's what I'd do. On Wed, Aug 03, 2022 at 6:38 PM, John R. Levine wrote: On Wed, 3 Aug 2022, Dave Crocker wrote: Original Text - | URI | _acct | [RFC6118] | Corrected Text -- | URI | _

Re: [DNSOP] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8552 (7064)

2022-08-08 Thread John R. Levine
So, for example, why is this latest reference correct this time, when it was judged incorrect, the last time is was used for the entry? I don't recall that anyone judged it incorrect. I think we just made a clerical error. Regards, John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Primary Perpetrator of "The In

Re: [DNSOP] [Editorial Errata Reported] RFC8552 (7064)

2022-08-08 Thread John R. Levine
I don't recall that anyone judged it incorrect.  I think we just made a clerical error. absent a recollection -- or documentation -- the proffered assessment lacks a basis. I don't recall documentation or even recollection of why those entries changed from one draft to the next. I do recal

Re: [DNSOP] On ALT-TLD, GNS, and namespaces...

2022-08-13 Thread John R Levine
That said, I believe what Warren is suggesting is more of a ten thousand foot view of the namespaces issue; and if that finds a way to allow innovation without fragmentation, it would be beneficial for DNS and non-DNS names alike. That would be swell, but since we've been wrestling with this p

Re: [DNSOP] On ALT-TLD, GNS, and namespaces...

2022-08-13 Thread John R Levine
I agree with this for TLD strings but the special use domain names registry is also used for registrations under .arpa which we want to keep. Is there an RFC other than 6761 that would cover those ? Eg currently resolver.arpa is going through 6761. Good point. Leaving it open for .arpa subdo

Re: [DNSOP] Anything goes in ALT, was On ALT-TLD, GNS, and namespaces...

2022-08-18 Thread John R Levine
On Thu, 18 Aug 2022, Paul Wouters wrote: On Aug 18, 2022, at 18:30, John Levine wrote: It appears that Eliot Lear It seems to me that the key word here is "cooperating." Considering how many projects squat on various bits of the DNS name space, we have seen only one show any interest in the

Re: [DNSOP] Anything goes in ALT, was On ALT-TLD, GNS, and namespaces...

2022-08-19 Thread John R Levine
I could have been clearer. The names can be duplicates, not the rest of the entry. So someone comes along and registers web.alt with a pointer to her thing, then someone else comes along with a different thing but also calls it web.alt, and we another entry in the registry. What does the r

Re: [DNSOP] Anything goes in ALT, was On ALT-TLD, GNS, and namespaces...

2022-08-19 Thread John R Levine
On Fri, 19 Aug 2022, Stephen Farrell wrote: domains at IANA. FWIW, that doesn't describe where I've so far landed on this. It omits the requirement that there be an RFC for each entry. As I've said several times, most recently yesterday, if we make people jump through hoops to put their name

Re: [DNSOP] Updated: Compact Denial of Existence

2023-03-14 Thread John R Levine
John it won’t work with chained validators. How about if I only send a "lie to me" option upstream if I get one from my client? I realize this means takeup will be pretty slow. Regards, John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please consider the environment before

Re: [DNSOP] Updated: Compact Denial of Existence

2023-03-15 Thread John R Levine
I think it's worth taking a step back though and asking a larger question: if we are restoring the NXDOMAIN signal with the NXNAME pseudo type in the NSEC record of NODATA responses, why do we also need to restore NXDOMAIN into the RCODE field? Because a bazillion existing clients expect to find

Re: [DNSOP] WGLC for draft-ietf-dnsop-zoneversion

2023-04-27 Thread John R Levine
On Thu, 27 Apr 2023, Miek Gieben wrote: I think it's an interesting idea but I also don't want to spend time on it if it's just going to be filed and forgotten. I looked into this for https://github.com/miekg/dns The option is trivial to implemented (in an auth server). I.e. seems similar to

Re: [DNSOP] Delegation acceptance checks [was: Re: [Ext] WGLC rfc8499bis one week extension for lame delegation definition]

2023-05-11 Thread John R Levine
Yeah, that's a better way to put it. But the main point still stands, that it would be a signficant operational change to insist that all delegated NS be active when delegated, and even moreso to insist that they continue to be active. No, it is not a “significant” change. It should just be a m

Re: [DNSOP] Delegation acceptance checks [was: Re: [Ext] WGLC rfc8499bis one week extension for lame delegation definition]

2023-05-12 Thread John R Levine
Yeah, that's a better way to put it. But the main point still stands, that it would be a signficant operational change to insist that all delegated NS be active when delegated, and even moreso to insist that they continue to be active. ... Well, OK, you do that, half the emails bounce, half of

Re: [DNSOP] draft-dulaunoy-dnsop-passive-dns-cof

2023-06-29 Thread John R Levine
When the IETF documents something, that is unavoidably an endorsement. We should be cautious about what we endorse. To some degree, but when we imagine that not documenting something that already exists will make people stop doing it, we just confirm the impression that we and our standards

Re: [DNSOP] draft-dulaunoy-dnsop-passive-dns-cof

2023-06-29 Thread John R Levine
If the IETF says “deidentified DNS logs are basically anonymous” vs. “deidentified DNS logs are basically PII”, I believe that makes a big difference in the world. Expert practitioners might already understand the nuance here, but our audience is broader than that. But neither is consistentl

Re: [DNSOP] draft-dulaunoy-dnsop-passive-dns-cof

2023-06-29 Thread John R Levine
On Thu, 29 Jun 2023, Ben Schwartz wrote: If you're running 8.8.8.8 your logs have a whole lot of PII, but if you're running resolvers in front of industrial networks and using PDNS to look for malfunctioning or compromised IoT boxes, there's no PII at all. Yes, but since the format doesn’t carry

Re: [DNSOP] [v6ops] WG call for adoption: draft-momoka-v6ops-ipv6-only-resolver-01

2023-07-09 Thread John R. Levine
The DNS people think that the network people should fix the network code so existing DNS resolvers work. While the network people think the DNS people should fix the DNS resolvers to work with existing network code. Pick your poison. By the way, it's not resolvers that need IPv4 literals. It

Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-domain-verification-techniques-02.txt

2023-07-17 Thread John R Levine
TCP, you already have worse problems, like DNSSEC doesn't work. Triggering TCP is still not good, even if it all works. It is still better avoiding by not stuffing the APEX. So I think we still want to leave something in there. In view of the wide use of DNSSEC and DoT and DoH, I think the arg

Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-domain-verification-techniques-02.txt

2023-07-17 Thread John R Levine
Just to be clear, I think it's quite reasonable to encourage people to put tokens at _name but I still see it as a matter of taste, not a technical issue. On Mon, 17 Jul 2023, Brian Dickson wrote: TCP being triggered on resolver-auth is much more of concern, particularly when the underlying ca

Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-domain-verification-techniques-02.txt

2023-07-17 Thread John R Levine
On Mon, 17 Jul 2023, Brian Dickson wrote: The stuffed apex does not only include those tokens, e.g. SPF and friends, which get queried A LOT. I forgot about SPF. Good point. In the absence of the aforementioned draft, there is no specific guidance that would lead ALL token issuers to use 20

Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-domain-verification-techniques-02.txt

2023-07-17 Thread John R. Levine
On Mon, 17 Jul 2023, Shumon Huque wrote: * Verifiers can't query for the specific data they need from the DNS. They need to get a potentially large blob of data and look for what is applicable to them by examining the rdata for each record in the RRset. This is not a new issue. It is the well kno

[DNSOP] Domain provisioning template schemes?

2023-09-09 Thread John R Levine
An acquaintance wrote to me asking if there was anything to automate the kinds of DNS stuff that hosting and mail providers need their customers to do, like add A and records to point to web hosts, MX and TXT for mail (the TXT is for DKIM and SPF), and so forth, with some way for the provider

Re: [DNSOP] scanning doesn't scale, draft-thomassen-dnsop-generalized-dns-notify and draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-bootstrapping

2023-10-16 Thread John R Levine
On Mon, 16 Oct 2023, Peter Thomassen wrote: 1. the parent receives an updated NS RRset, 3. the parent obtains a copy of a signaling zone and walks the signaling records published there (at _signal.$NS, such as _signal.jo.ns.cloudflare.com), If you think about it for a moment, #3 doesn't work

Re: [DNSOP] draft-thomassen-dnsop-generalized-dns-notify and draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-bootstrapping

2023-10-16 Thread John R Levine
I thinnk you're agreeing that we should add notifications even though we can imagine a wide range of so-far nonexistent ways to limit the cost of scanning. My thought is that the notify is for the domain to be signed, so there's no scanning, just parent checks to see whether it likes the new k

Re: [DNSOP] NOTIFY: How to locate the target

2023-11-08 Thread John R Levine
It appears that Paul Vixie said: -=-=-=-=-=- None of the above. Do what RFC 2136 does to send updates to the primary authority, or do what RFC 1996 does to send notifications to all listed authorities. Any new signaling is effectively a way to go out of band. The system is complete as it i

Re: [DNSOP] NOTIFY: How to locate the target

2023-11-08 Thread John R Levine
On Wed, 8 Nov 2023, Joe Abley wrote: I think the idea is that these two existing and well-implemented mechanisms should be considered first to see if they fit before anybody goes to the trouble of inventing new ones. The most likely use case for this stuff is for a domain registrant to updat

Re: [DNSOP] NOTIFY: How to locate the target

2023-11-09 Thread John R Levine
On Wed, 8 Nov 2023, Brian Dickson wrote: The target for a NOTIFY would necessarily be found in the SOA record of the registrant's zone, not the parent's zone. I think that's where the confusion has arisen. There's definitely confusion here but I don't think it's mine. The child (registrant) pu

Re: [DNSOP] NOTIFY: How to locate the target

2023-11-09 Thread John R Levine
On Thu, 9 Nov 2023, Joe Abley wrote: Apropos Joe's message, the child could hypothetically try and send the NOTIFTY to the parent SOA, e.g. a.gtld-servers.net for .com or .net. But those are clouds of anycast servers and even if you can get that to work, they belong to the registry while the

Re: [DNSOP] NOTIFY: How to locate the target

2023-11-09 Thread John R Levine
On Thu, 9 Nov 2023, Joe Abley wrote: If we can get the registrars and registries to go for it, registry forwarding is fine with me, but I don't think it would be a good idea to specify it unless we are confident that people are willing to do it. To be honest I have my doubts that any of this

Re: [DNSOP] NOTIFY: How to locate the target

2023-11-09 Thread John R Levine
Named at least will forward UPDATE to the primary servers. It’s off by default because it hides the source address and UPDATE may be restricted by IP address but it works with both TSIG and SIG(0). This is standards defined behaviour. TSIG was designed to support this. SIG(0) requires a bit

[DNSOP] QNAME minimization is bad

2023-11-10 Thread John R Levine
Well, not always bad but sometimes. A friend of mine who works on DNSBLs wrote yesterday (quite by coincidence, unware that there's a meeting this week) asking if anyone has thought about this problem: DNSBLs have the same form as rDNS, IPv4 names all start with four labels containing digits,

Re: [DNSOP] QNAME minimization is bad

2023-11-10 Thread John R Levine
I'd like to write a draft that updates RFC 9156 by describing situations like this that caches could recognize and avoid useless churn, added to section 2.3 which already suggests special casing underscored labels. I must confess that I do not see what is suggested in this thread which is not al

Re: [DNSOP] QNAME minimization: we screwed up but it's your problem

2023-11-11 Thread John R Levine
On Fri, 10 Nov 2023, David Conrad wrote: DNSBLs have been around a lot longer than QNAME minimization. Not sure that’s relevant — I presume you’re not suggesting DNSBLs are a predominant use of the DNS. In the overall Internet, no, but within the e-mail world it's probably the majority of t

Re: [DNSOP] QNAME minimization, we screwed up and it's your problem

2023-11-11 Thread John R Levine
On Sat, 11 Nov 2023, Paul Wouters wrote: DNSBLs have been around a lot longer than QNAME minimization. They work(ed) fine without minimization and I don't think it is reasonable to expect every mail system in the world to change their configuration to work around our performance bug. It is tota

Re: [DNSOP] QNAME minimization can be better, or New Version Notification for draft-levine-qmin-performance-00.txt

2023-11-13 Thread John R Levine
What about updating RFC 5782 to remove the "."s? The "."s don't seem to help in any way here (unlike reverse zones, where they enable useful delegations). Once again, I really wish people would stop blaming the victim. Rather than telling 100,000 mail servers around the world to change the w

Re: [DNSOP] QNAME minimization can be better, or New Version Notification for draft-levine-qmin-performance-00.txt

2023-11-13 Thread John R Levine
Looks good. I am hoping that we can reduce or at least prioritise the different suggestions before it is finalized. I am hoping someone has more data so if there are other places where minimization causes performance problems, we can recognize them and fix them. "little or decrease" -> "li

Re: [DNSOP] QNAME minimization can be better, or New Version Notification for draft-levine-qmin-performance-00.txt

2023-11-13 Thread John R. Levine
On Mon, 13 Nov 2023, Ben Schwartz wrote: What about updating RFC 5782 to remove the "."s? The "."s don't seem to help in any way here (unlike reverse zones, where they enable useful delegations). PS: Some DNSBLs use stunt servers that synthesize the answers, but some are normal DNS zones.

Re: [DNSOP] QNAME minimization can be better, or New Version Notification for draft-levine-qmin-performance-00.txt

2023-11-13 Thread John R Levine
On 14/11/2023 00:56, John R Levine wrote: Once again, I really wish people would stop blaming the victim. That's not useful language. DNSBLs fulfill a purpose but are not victims. People whose privacy is exposed via network traffic are not correctly described as victims but are noneth

Re: [DNSOP] DNSBL performance optimization, was QNAME minimization can be better

2023-11-13 Thread John R Levine
TL;DR: (IPv4) The benefit of NSEC is fewer queries to the auths which would return NXDOMAIN answers, which improves overall DNSBL lookup performance. It also avoids exploding the negative cache of the resolver. Funny you should mention that. About ten years ago I was trying to figure out how I

Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] on private use TLDS: .interNAL -> .LAN

2024-02-27 Thread John R Levine
On Tue, 27 Feb 2024, Toerless Eckert wrote: Me ? No. Why do we care whether ICANN will delegate .INTERNAL? They'll never delegate .AA or .ZZ either, and nobody sees that as a problem. R"s, John On Tue, Feb 27, 2024 at 01:22:43PM -0500, John Levine wrote: It appears that Joe Abley said

Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] About key tags

2024-02-27 Thread John R Levine
The kind of load is different but in each case the client needs to limit the amount of work it's willing to do. We can forbid it in the protocol but unless you have better contacts at the Protocol Police than I do, people will do it anyway. If you forbid in the protocol the tools will be fixed t

Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] About key tags and their infrequent collisions

2024-02-28 Thread John R Levine
On Wed, 28 Feb 2024, libor.peltan wrote: Dne 27. 02. 24 v 21:24 John Levine napsal(a): The total number of domains where I found duplicate tags was 105. As I said earlier, is while I appreciate such research, I warn against misinterpreting it. The main point isn't about the zones that are curr

Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] About key tags

2024-02-28 Thread John R Levine
On Thu, 29 Feb 2024, Mark Andrews wrote: If it is forbidden in the protocol, it might still happen. Ed, your reasoning is off. The point of forbidding is to allow the validator to safely stop as soon as possible when it is under attack. We're going in circles here. You want to stop at 2 so

Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] About key tags and collision numbers

2024-02-28 Thread John R Levine
On Wed, 28 Feb 2024, Shumon Huque wrote: Banning keytag collisions outright today would not be a good idea - we risk rendering some sights unresolvable through no fault of their own. DNSSEC already has plenty of detractors, and we don't want to give them more ammunition by creating problems in th

Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] About key tags

2024-03-01 Thread John R Levine
Technically only a SHA-2 hash of the key would need to be there. If somebody can create a SHA-2 hash collision then the world has bigger problems than a DoS on DNSSEC validation. How hard would it be to add a possibility for another key algorithm? Beyond the change to the specs, it would requi

Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] About key tags

2024-03-01 Thread John R Levine
Remember that the keytags are just a hint to limit the number of keys you need to check for each signature. If I have a zone with 300 signatures per key, it's still going to take a while to check them all even with no duplicate tags. It won't be as bad as the quadratic keytrap but it'll still be a

Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] About key tags

2024-03-01 Thread John R Levine
You don’t perform a verify if the time window is invalid. The same as you don’t perform a verify if the tag doesn’t match. Mind you it’s completely pointless to have multiple time ranges. The RRset and it’s signatures travel as pairs. All the key rollover rules depend on that. I agree it doe

Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] About key tags

2024-03-02 Thread John R Levine
On Sat, 2 Mar 2024, Peter Thomassen wrote: On 2/29/24 18:06, Paul Wouters wrote:  (If no action is taken, malicious activity might follow now that it is described, but I have not heard of a historical case of it.) This attack was more or less described five year ago: https://essay.utwente.nl

Re: [DNSOP] Do we need new draft that recommends number limits ?

2024-03-12 Thread John R Levine
On Wed, 13 Mar 2024, Mark Andrews wrote: The obvious example is CNAME chains. In 1034/1035 the only use contemplated for CNAME was temporary forwarding when a host name changed, and for that use, chained CNAMEs made no sense. Now they delegate authority to different points of control in many diff

Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-compact-denial-of-existence-03.txt

2024-03-17 Thread John R Levine
On Sun, 17 Mar 2024, Shumon Huque wrote: The draft allows (but does not proscribe) NXDOMAIN to be inserted into the Rcode for non DNSSEC enabled responses. I guess the main reason for not being proscriptive was what I mentioned - there were deployments in the field that didn't. ... You're certa

Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] Call for Adoption: draft-hardaker-dnsop-rfc8624-bis, must-not-sha1, must-not-ecc-gost

2024-05-02 Thread John R Levine
I'm with Peter, I do not see a MUST NOT as requiring vendors or operators to do stupid stuff. For my understanding, do you mean to say that if we publish that a signer MUST NOT generate signatures using algorithms 5 and 7, then the signer can just do that if it generates and annoying warning eac

Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] Call for Adoption: draft-hardaker-dnsop-rfc8624-bis, must-not-sha1, must-not-ecc-gost

2024-05-02 Thread John R Levine
On Thu, 2 May 2024, Scott Morizot wrote: On Thu, May 2, 2024 at 7:32 AM John R Levine wrote: MUST NOT is advice on how to interoperate, not on how to write software tools. It's up to the zone operator to follow the advice, not to the tool provider to hold them hostage. ??? RFC 86

Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] Call for Adoption: draft-hardaker-dnsop-rfc8624-bis, must-not-sha1, must-not-ecc-gost

2024-05-02 Thread John R Levine
On Thu, 2 May 2024, Scott Morizot wrote: I think we need a clean update to RFC 8624 first that includes instructions to IANA to update the table. I don't think the current draft does that very well. And since the IANA table already has a Zone Signing column, I think we just want to change that

[DNSOP]Re: [IANA #1362913] expert review for draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-bootstrapping (dns-parameters) (fwd)

2024-05-09 Thread John R Levine
Actually, we are developing an unrelated scheme that has need of the same zone structure for signaling but not involving DNSSEC itself, and would see some advantage in utilizing the same standard top level underscore naming for signaling use in general. Would you want to put the signal info in

[DNSOP]Re: [IANA #1362913] expert review for draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-bootstrapping (dns-parameters)

2024-05-10 Thread John R Levine
On Fri, 10 May 2024, Paul Wouters wrote: On May 10, 2024, at 05:36, jab...@strandkip.nl wrote: I'm interested in where this guidance comes from. RFC 2782 to me is the grandfather of underscore labels, and it pretty much goes out of its way to encourage a hierarchy of underscore labels to anch

[DNSOP]Re: [IANA #1362913] expert review for draft-ietf-dnsop-dnssec-bootstrapping (dns-parameters)

2024-05-21 Thread John R Levine
Actually, we are developing an unrelated scheme that has need of the same zone structure for signaling but not involving DNSSEC itself, and would see some advantage in utilizing the same standard top level underscore naming for signaling use in general. Would you want to put the signal info in

[DNSOP] draft-ietf-dnsop-zoneversion doesn't handle this situation

2024-06-17 Thread John R. Levine
It currently says: A name server MAY include more than one ZONEVERSION option in the response if it supports multiple TYPEs. A name server MUST NOT include more than one ZONEVERSION option for a given TYPE. Here is a real life example from my server sdn.iecc.com: ;; QUESTION SECTION: ;com.ws

[DNSOP] Re: Wallet is not implementable.

2024-06-24 Thread John R. Levine
On Mon, 24 Jun 2024, Joe Abley wrote: It seems like it would be nice to be able to implement future new RRTypes like WALLET simply by adding an RRType to an array of RRTypes that are all implemented the same way, rather than writing new parsers for every one of them. It would also make applican

[DNSOP] Re: Working Group Last Call for draft-ietf-dnsop-rfc7958bis

2024-06-30 Thread John R Levine
I took a look and didn't find anything particularly troubling. I agree that adding the new optional DNSKEY element doesn't need a version number. Getting rid of private certificates in favor of a CA signed cert for the HTTPS server makes sense. On the other hand, I don't understand what the p

[DNSOP] Re: Fwd: New Version Notification - draft-ietf-dnsop-domain-verification-techniques-05.txt

2024-07-11 Thread John R Levine
On Thu, 11 Jul 2024, Tim Wicinski wrote: A) Should verification records have a tag at the front of the data to identify the record type? There's plenty of prior art for this, e.g., the 63 text records at stanford.edu. Or you might say that a sufficiently long random token in the interesting part

[DNSOP] Re: Fwd: New Version Notification - draft-ietf-dnsop-domain-verification-techniques-05.txt

2024-07-11 Thread John R Levine
On Thu, 11 Jul 2024, Tim Wicinski wrote: The stanford.edu example is useful, only because they don't show up in those alexa top-1000(000) lists. Like I am sure many here have, I dumped the TXT records to the top 1000 and while the majority use the format "token=value", there are several that use

[DNSOP] Re: Fwd: New Version Notification - draft-ietf-dnsop-domain-verification-techniques-05.txt

2024-07-23 Thread John R Levine
On Tue, 23 Jul 2024, Shumon Huque wrote: The simplest thing to do would be to follow the precedent of SPF, DKIM, etc TXT using protocols and state that multiple TXT strings (if present) need to be concatenated before use. We can state this. That should be fine. Wildcards can cause some annoyi

[DNSOP] Re: Fwd: New Version Notification - draft-ietf-dnsop-domain-verification-techniques-05.txt

2024-07-24 Thread John R Levine
On Wed, 24 Jul 2024, Shumon Huque wrote: The issue is that a wildcard will match every possible owner name. If you are confident that there is enough entropy in the tokens that no verifier will ever be confused, OK. But since the token is supposed to be the only thing at the _prefix name, how a

[DNSOP] Re: Fwd: New Version Notification - draft-ietf-dnsop-domain-verification-techniques-05.txt

2024-07-26 Thread John R Levine
On Fri, 26 Jul 2024, Erik Nygren wrote: On your last point, yes, I think we can say that if a verifier sees multiple validation records, they can abort. I'd think it would be better to allow looking at the full RRset and succeeding if any of the records match? No. These records are suppose

[DNSOP] Re: [Ext] New draft on collision free key tags in DNSSEC

2024-07-26 Thread John R Levine
Even if we where to go with one failure is allowed we still need to write down the new rules and there will be complaints that we are retrospectively changing the rules. This is grand fathering in the old rules for the old algorithms. Write a BCP, not a standard disallowing key id clashes. Ri

[DNSOP] Re: [Ext] New draft on collision free key tags in DNSSEC

2024-07-28 Thread John R. Levine
On Sat, 27 Jul 2024, Edward Lewis wrote: As part of my answering to "further exploration", I’m skeptical that it is possible eliminate key tag collisions from the protocol. Not that collisions are in anyway desirable or are worthy of being tolerated, my skepticism is whether or not elimination

Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-dns-zone-digest-00.txt

2019-08-08 Thread John R Levine
On Thu, 8 Aug 2019, Joe Abley wrote: I don't see how that's a MUST. What else could you do? One alternative would be for the receiver to insist that all digests with supported algorithms match. It seems reasonable to specify that verifying that one of them matches is sufficient to declare the

Re: [DNSOP] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-dns-zone-digest-00.txt

2019-08-08 Thread John R Levine
On Thu, 8 Aug 2019, Wessels, Duane wrote: Thanks John and Joe, does this text capture what you're suggesting? 4.1. Verifying Multiple Digests If multiple digests are present in the zone, e.g., during an algorithm rollover, a match using any one of the recipient's supported Digest Type a

Re: [DNSOP] Please review and provide feedback -- draft-stw-6761ext

2019-08-23 Thread John R Levine
I don't mean to channel Warren (it's unnecessary because even when he's asleep he's still reading mail) but I think the whole point of the ALT proposal is not to have a registry. A registry attracts policy and dispute resolution; an informal, decentralised understanding that anything goes, plea

Re: [DNSOP] Please review and provide feedback -- draft-stw-6761ext

2019-08-23 Thread John R Levine
2. Names handled through mutant DNS which can returns IP addresses (.local, .localhost, .homenet/.home.arpa) I think it's clear that nobody has ever shown signs of wanting to anchor anything like this under .ARPA if it's a name that a user might ever have to see. The reason we might imagine

Re: [DNSOP] Call for Adoption: draft-nygren-dnsop-svcb-httpssvc

2019-10-07 Thread John R Levine
On Mon, 7 Oct 2019, Tim Wicinski wrote: I believe the browser vendors have made such an agreement. We should get confirmation. That's about 2/3 of it, but I hope they stay engaged to avoid an outcome where we make changes that seem OK to us and they come back at the end and say no, we're not

[DNSOP] Post quantum DNSSEC ?

2019-10-15 Thread John R Levine
I just heard a most interesting talk at M3AAWG about postquantum crypto and particularly about the NIST candidate algorithms. Many of them have much larger key or signature sizes than any current algorithm, like 10,000 bits or more. Some are a lot slower than others. Has anyone been looking

Re: [DNSOP] on private use TLDS

2019-11-28 Thread John R Levine
On Thu, 28 Nov 2019, Doug Barton wrote: I don't see how relying on ISO's advice is poaching. They say: You, like Ted, are ignoring the fact that ISO can choose to change those rules. The user assigned codes are part of the published ISO 3166 standard. If that's not stable enough, neither

Re: [DNSOP] on private use TLDS

2019-11-28 Thread John R Levine
I do think the semantic meaning of the label is worth thinking about, and I am wary of particular scripts or languages being chosen arbitrarily. ... Part of Roy's pitch was that the reserved two letter codes like .ZZ are equally meaningless in most languages. - has the advice to anchor a pri

Re: [DNSOP] Working Group Last Call for: Message Digest for DNS Zones

2020-01-05 Thread John R Levine
We seem to have a fairly basic disagreement here about whether we can expect people who implement ZONEMD to be familiar with the way that DNS servers work. In pretty much all of the cases below, it seems to me that if the answer to the question isn't obvious, you're not the audience for this d

Re: [DNSOP] Working Group Last Call for: Message Digest for DNS Zones

2020-01-06 Thread John R Levine
Well, OK, here's a concrete example. I download the COM zone every day from Verisign, and also a separate file with an MD5 hash of the main file. Using RFC 2119 language, what do I do if the hash I get doesn't match their hash? ... Ok - you've described half of this - the download and the vali

Re: [DNSOP] Working Group Last Call for: Message Digest for DNS Zones

2020-01-06 Thread John R Levine
*Sigh* Not exactly.  If you have no automated applications that will use this, then it depends on the human and I think that's what you mean by "application".  Otherwise, I think you'll find that most automated applications will want to (or probably should want to) use the same logic. I'm sorr

Re: [DNSOP] Working Group Last Call for: Message Digest for DNS Zones

2020-01-08 Thread John R Levine
Could you give me a b) for each of these please?   E.g. How does ZONEMD make your life better in each of these and what would happen if you - in a future world - were getting ZONEMD data and validation failed? Unless someone else says they find this level of anecdotal detail useful, I'll pass.

Re: [DNSOP] Working Group Last Call for: Message Digest for DNS Zones

2020-01-08 Thread John R Levine
On Wed, 8 Jan 2020, Michael StJohns wrote: I'm running a private copy of the root zone for my organization. I (automated) check the SOA every so often, and arrange for a download of the zone when it changes.    I (automated) get a copy of the zone data, including an ZONEMD RR, everything valida

Re: [DNSOP] Working Group Last Call for: Message Digest for DNS Zones

2020-01-13 Thread John R Levine
Thought I'd forgotten about this?  :-) No such luck, but I'm done. I don't see any benefit in further argument. On 1/8/2020 3:13 PM, John R Levine wrote: On Wed, 8 Jan 2020, Michael StJohns wrote: I'm running a private copy of the root zone for my organization. I (auto

[DNSOP] An extended scenario for ZONEMD

2020-01-13 Thread John R Levine
If the root zone hand a ZONEMD in it, for the first time I'd have a way to validate the IP addresses in the *.root-servers.net glue records. Someone suggested you could validate them by trying a query and seeing if you get a answer, which is of course wrong. That tells you you've found a serv

Re: [DNSOP] Publishing Information for Entities Identified by Domain Names

2020-01-27 Thread John R Levine
You might take a look at RFCs 8552 and 8553. There is a long history of publishing stuff in the DNS with scoped identifiers. All the uses mentioned defined so far are about service discovery. Not at all. _dmarc publishes info about mail sending policy, _dkim about message validation keys, a

[DNSOP] Refreshed DNS dbound draft and code

2020-04-10 Thread John R Levine
I made some twiddles to my dbound-in-dns library and updated the I-D to match. Code: https://github.com/jrlevine/bound I-D: https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-levine-dbound-dns/ I added some more records to the DNS zone so now I believe that by careful abuse of DNS wildcards, in most case

Re: [DNSOP] New draft on delegation revalidation

2020-04-13 Thread John R Levine
Remember that in ICANN contracted TLDs and in some ccTLDs, a registry can only contact registrants by going through the registrars. So they sent the notices via the registrar. There is nothing preventing that. Actually there is -- there's no mechanism to do so. Registries and registrars com

Re: [DNSOP] data at delegation points

2020-04-15 Thread John R Levine
The plan in this draft is that NS2 would eventually replace NS records. if so there's a much larger set of changes we'd have to consider. for one thing NS2 should be slabbed (one record containing a compound rdata set); for another it would have to incorporate what DS does now (also as a slab).

Re: [DNSOP] Call for Adoption: draft-pwouters-powerbind

2020-05-01 Thread John R Levine
On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 9:44 PM John Levine wrote: I think it's benign to allow any sort of record as an immediate child of the domain, since you need to go two levels down for split zones. That handes the nominet and zz--zz cases. Is there any chance that a user trying to reach https://examp

Re: [DNSOP] Call for Adoption: draft-pwouters-powerbind

2020-05-01 Thread John R Levine
In a sense, a glue record with the same owner name as a zone cut could be equivalent to a glue record with an owner name that is subordinate to a zone cut. I don't have enough of the spec in my head to know why they would definitively be different from the protocol perspective. I realise it's n

Re: [DNSOP] Glue is not optional, but sometimes it *is* sufficient...

2020-05-21 Thread John R Levine
On Thu, 21 May 2020, Warren Kumari wrote: Yes -- but information in the additional section should not be promoted to an answer. A week or two ago I scannned TLD zone files to see how many signed A and records there were. Quite a lot, most looks to be orphan glue in Afilias zones that th

Re: [DNSOP] Glue is not optional, but sometimes it *is* sufficient...

2020-05-22 Thread John R Levine
On Fri, 22 May 2020, Tony Finch wrote: I vaguely remember a policy change in .com and .net years ago when they stopped including orphan glue in the zones. Was this to do with prep work for DNSSEC? I'm slightly surprised .org didn't follow suit. I believe that the policy is to remove orphan glue

Re: [DNSOP] Glue is not optional, but sometimes it *is* sufficient...

2020-05-22 Thread John R Levine
On Fri, 22 May 2020, Joe Abley wrote: I think that some of the things you have been looking at concern orphan glue, John -- glue records that have been promoted to authoritative, signed RRSets in the TLD zone following the removal of a zone cut. I think what Warren is talking about is the beha

[DNSOP] CNAME chain length limits

2020-05-27 Thread John R Levine
While I should have been doing something else, I made a rather long CNAME chain. When I looked up chain.examp1e.com it got SERVFAIL, but after I warmed up my cache five links at a time by looking for chain5, chain10, chain15, and so forth, it worked. At least it worked in "dig" and "host". Wh

Re: [DNSOP] CNAME chain length limits

2020-05-27 Thread John R Levine
On Wed, 27 May 2020, John R Levine wrote: While I should have been doing something else, I made a rather long CNAME chain. When I looked up chain.examp1e.com it got SERVFAIL, but after I warmed up my cache five links at a time by looking for chain5, chain10, chain15, and so forth, it worked

Re: [DNSOP] CNAME chain length limits

2020-05-27 Thread John R Levine
ed, May 27, 2020 at 1:49 PM John R Levine wrote: While I should have been doing something else, I made a rather long CNAME chain. When I looked up chain.examp1e.com it got SERVFAIL, but after I warmed up my cache five links at a time by looking for chain5, chain10, chain15, and so forth, it worked.

Re: [DNSOP] CNAME chain length limits

2020-05-27 Thread John R Levine
While I should have been doing something else, I made a rather long CNAME chain. When I looked up chain.examp1e.com it got SERVFAIL, but after I warmed up my cache five links at a time by looking for chain5, chain10, chain15, and so forth, it worked. At least it worked in "dig" and "host". When

Re: [DNSOP] CNAME chain length limits

2020-05-27 Thread John R Levine
On Thu, 28 May 2020, dagon wrote: On Thu, May 28, 2020 at 01:02:47AM +0100, Tony Finch wrote: dagon wrote: -- Tests for ("improper") horizontal vs. vertical CNAMEs. Some recursive speakers fail; some complain ("BAD (HORIZONTAL) REFERRAL", but answer), and some follow without comp

Re: [DNSOP] [Ext] I-D Action: draft-ietf-dnsop-glue-is-not-optional-00.txt

2020-06-05 Thread John R Levine
Here's one example, 0124.org which has five in-domain name servers with glue: You're right, that's what it does but it also seems seriously wrong. $ for sz in `seq 604 16 700`; do echo -n "BUFSIZE $sz " ; dig +norec +ignore +dnssec +bufsize=$sz @199.19.57.1 0124.org | grep ';; flags:' ; done

Re: [DNSOP] Call for Adoption: draft-arends-private-use-tld

2020-06-13 Thread John R Levine
technically ICANN is only really in charge of the gTLD name space as the ccTLD one depends on the ISO 2 letter alpha code elements over which ICANN has no control. I suppose this might make sense as an informational RFC about here's what is likely to happen if you squat on these names that proba

Re: [DNSOP] Call for Adoption: draft-arends-private-use-tld

2020-06-16 Thread John R Levine
- I think it would make sense for non-TLDs to be DNAME'd to AS112++'s empty zone (which generates an NXDOMAIN) You want this in the root? * IN DNAME EMPTY.AS112.ARPA. That'd be, um, different. Regards, John Levine, jo...@taugh.com, Taughannock Networks, Trumansburg NY Please conside

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