For those that remember a little farther back there used to be an
old joke circa 1970) that the worse thing you could see outside your
windshield was a Ford Pinto with Firestone 721 tires header your direction
backwards.
For the youngsters in the group. There was time when a Pinto
Cortland,
The holes or slots may also be required to meet the Maximum unpierced
conductor area requirement of UL796 Standard for Printed-Wiring Boards for
your particular PWB supplier. In the UL Recognized Component Directory (vol.
3, ZPMV2) it is listed as Maximum, Area, Diameter, Inches.
Consider the cost of educating the customer. For a low-priced commodity
product a recognizable NRTL logo is preferable. An expensive product with
considerable pre-sales contact can use a legal but rarer logo because there
is time to explain the approval.
Some NRTL's logos include specification
Robert,
Very nice response. Well summarized. I am pushing for option 2,
disconnection of one of the many and test. Then repeat for all supplies. You
exactly state my reasoning in this option as well. The standard is trying to
protect against an inadvertent loss of the grounding or bonding
Joe:
I believe you are correct.
Check the following URL
http://www.osha-slc.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtlmrk.html, and you will find the
following:
...OSHA accepts only those products that contain the NRTL's mark and that
the NRTL has certified within its scope of recognition, which includes the
My two cents . . .
And many of those related to part failure are still related to human error.
There is some evidence that the Firestone problem is related to under inflated
tires which is a driver responsibility.
This doesn't even address the faulty maintenance that causes accidents that may
Courtland,
The NRTL (UL, CSA) would not like the idea that one marked the product with
the word UL or CSA because (their argument) it is misleading. In some cases,
TUV, ETL etc. can certify some products using UL/CSA standards.
Tac,
Power-One TSD
-Original Message-
From: Courtland
Dear George,
Just a small clarification: in regard to item 5, one of the following..,
are mixed-up TESTING AGENCIES(NRTLs) with MARKS. In Canada, are acceptable
the following MARKS:
CSA, cETL (issued by ITS - Intertek Testing Services, formerly Inchcape
T.S.), cUL and ULC. (for CERTIFICATION
I see no cETL listed at http://www.scc.ca/certific/colist.html
I did see ITS listed.
bolintic%dscltd@interlock.lexmark.com on 01/24/2001 04:52:35 PM
To: George_Alspaugh/Lex/Lexmark.LEXMARK@sweeper.lex.lexmark.com,
emc-pstc%majordomo.ieee@interlock.lexmark.com
cc:(bcc:
From: Dick Grobner [mailto:dick.grob...@medgraph.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 4:01 PM
. I also know that the City of
L.A. is a stickler for a third party mark on a medical device (and I would
suspect other devices as will), if it isn't there
Allow me to make one addendum to my prior note before I get blasted
by the readers. I implied that virtually all traffic accidents are
due to bad drivers. I overlooked the infamous Firestone tire episode.
However, this does not alter my position. If you had a pie diagram
indicating the
Product safety is a relative term. It usually means that
a product meets the public's generally accepted level of risk
for the benefits it provides. My plastic coffee mug is quite
safe, aside from the stuff that I sometimes allow to grow
inside. My chain saw is a nightmare waiting to happen,
I just couldn't resist. How many times do I have to tell you about blow
drying your hair in the shower?
JOHN E. STUCKEY
-Original Message-
From: Bill Ronzio [mailto:bill.ron...@flextronics.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 12:14
To: 'Mark Gill'; peter.tar...@sanmina.com; 'PSTC -
I sure hope my Colt Python is very dangerous, but in only one direction!
Ed Price
ed.pr...@cubic.com
Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab
Cubic Defense Systems
San Diego, CA. USA
858-505-2780 (Voice)
858-505-1583 (Fax)
Military Avionics EMC Services Is Our Specialty
Shake-Bake-Shock -
Hello group,
I have a question concerning labeling a product. If we go to a NRTL and get
Safety testing performed, we typically put the Safety logo (UL for example)
on the product label. Our marketing people have a problem with having
different logo's. They would like to standarize on a single
I agree, many years ago we did exactly that, labeled the product as
conforms too _ _ _ _ before we started using an NRTL for product safety
testing. Eventually the larger medical institutions and corporations got
wise and started asking too see the third party NRTL mark on the product.
Sense, we
My understanding of the NRTL marking is that if you don't mark it,
it is not considered Listed. It doesn't matter if it has been tested or
not. I believe the issue is that if the NRTL is performing a factory audit,
they will only review marked product. Therefore, if you do not mark
Hi Courtland,
You asked:
I have a question concerning labeling a product. If we go to a NRTL and get
Safety testing performed, we typically put the Safety logo (UL for example)
on the product label. Our marketing people have a problem with having
different logo's. They would like to standarize
Courtland,
There is nothing in UL1950 that says you MUST have an NRTL logo . . .
there are requirements for ratings/safety markings, but not a logo.
NRTLs typically have specifications on their logos, and how they must
appear/be
used. I don't recall seeing that you MUST apply the mark . . .
And how about those Chain Saws, there sharp!
-Original Message-
From: Mark Gill [mailto:gil...@nortelnetworks.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 10:33 AM
To: peter.tar...@sanmina.com; 'PSTC - articles 1'
Subject: RE: Cell Phone Suit Will Get Its Day in Court
Funny thing -
Cortland,
The three NRTLs that we have used require their mark to be on the product.
They even have very strict guidelines as to how it is to appear. We have
used TÜV Product Service, UL, and Intertek (ETL). In the case of UL if you
look at the product listing information on their web site it
Hi Courtland:
I have a question concerning labeling a product. If we go to a NRTL and get
Safety testing performed, we typically put the Safety logo (UL for example)
on the product label. Our marketing people have a problem with having
different logo's. They would like to
The US National Electrical Code and many local ordinances require equipment
to be Listed. Most, if not all, of the Canadian Provinces require
equipment to be Certified (except for equipment powered by Class 2
sources).
Richard Woods
--
From: Courtland Thomas [SMTP:ctho...@patton.com]
As a frequent flyer and private pilot with some knowledge of EMC, I'll throw
in a few comments:
It is clear to me that consumer electronics can interfere with aircraft
electronics, and I've probably heard all the same horror stories -- DC10
finds itself off course on landing, false engine
The same is easily said of other products, Rick, like firearms (where there
are politically motivated lawsuits in progress and also directly analogous
to the tobacco lawsuits on many levels), hot coffee from MacDonalds, ad
infinitum. That a product is known to be hazardous or dangerous is not
Hi Courtland,
For an NRTL approved product, it's generally a requirement that's captured
in the agreement drawn between agency and client plus in their report for
the product.
In my experience, the wording ...conforms with won't mean much and
would mean even less without the mark of an
Interesting,
Guess the power companies will be the next target since the jury still seems
to be out on impacts of low frequency E-H fields. We already know the
pollution generated by companies (which also fuel the economy) is bad. Can
I sue? I can't get away from it unless I buy bottled
forwarding for ro...@tgc.se
Reply Separator
Subject:RE: Client Presence During Testing
Author: Roger Magnuson ro...@tgc.se
List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org
Date: 1/24/01 2:47 PM
Kate,
We are a test lab as well as a regular client at many
Without exception I attend the tests - I don't for the safety tests
unless it is something I haven't seen before. There is a concern over client
confidentiality that has to be addressed. Just as you don't want competitors
to see your equipment, your competitors don't want you seeing
The difference is that everyone knows that a car can be dangerous. IF cell
phones are proven hazardous, most people would not be aware or understand
the risk. Im not saying that these aligations are valid, but it does make
sense to keep informed.
Rick Busche
-Original Message-
From:
Debbie,
Doug Powell explained it as venting, where slots or holes are added to a
plane in order to let vapor out. However, it is my belief that this is also
done to keep copper balanced during the etching process. I may well be
mistaken, but the EMI and signal integrity concerns we have with the
Funny thing - automobile manufacturers are making and selling cars with the
knowledge that they may be dangerous!
-Original Message-
From: Tarver, Peter [SC1:9031:EXCH]
Sent: Wednesday, January 24, 2001 10:32 AM
To: PSTC - articles 1
Subject: Cell Phone Suit Will
From the Telecom Digest
Monty Solomon wrote:
Cell Phone Suit Will Get Its Day in Court
NEW ORLEANS, La. - In ruling that could shake the cell phone industry, a
federal judge let stand a lawsuit that says companies are making and selling
cell phones with the knowledge that they may be
We are fortunate in that we always get the lab personnel to
come to our facility to test our products. This has many
advantages, the main ones being that any issues can be cleared
up with the design engineers, and you don't let the lab people
go until they agree to approve your product !!
Ron Pickard commented (questioned)
**
Also, an interesting paragraph exists in 5.2.2. It states Equipment
designed for multiple (redundant) power supplies shall be tested with only
one supply connected. How would one interpret this? Only one supply
connected and then the other, and then add the
Here's my experience:
a) Do they allow presence in lab (technical area) itself ? If not, then
where are clients who are at the lab normally placed?
I am indeed allowed to be in the 'technical area', or I may stay
int eh customer lounge. Beverages/food are not allowed
in the technical area.
see below
-Original Message-
From: k.macl...@aprel.com [SMTP:k.macl...@aprel.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 23, 2001 6:04 PM
To: t...@world.std.com; emc-p...@ieee.org
Subject: Client Presence During Testing
Hello, Folks -
Can you share with me how your
Kate,
I have worked with two outside labs over the last 5 years. Both have had an
almost identical policy with regard to this. My answers to your questions
are below:
Question A: I have always been allowed into the laboratory area (unless
there is a safety hazard). I usually sit with the
Hello readers,
Little question about Remote Controls (to be used for TV and video recorders)
and functioned by using an infra red transmitter. Need this product also comply
to the EU-EMC and Safety directive (2 small batteries used) and so marked with
a CE symbol?
And what about the US
ce-test is a test house ... We do ce-testing for LVD, EMC and MDD Class 1
and RTTE equipment.
We can perform tests without client coming over but
We usually appreciate clients coming over.
First because we want to make sure the
equipment under test is operating correctly.
and because the
There is growing concern amongst professional aircrew about the use of
consumer electronics (CD players, mobile phones, hand held GPS etc) on board
aircraft. Some claim that passenger electronics has definitely interfered
with navigation systems, primary flight displays or engine warning
The ECMA 2000 Memento (their yearly handbook)shows ECMA-97
as withdrawn, with no note of any equivalent international
or European standard. There is no copy of ECMA-97 on the
CD-ROM distributed with the 2000 ECMA Memento. Unfortunately
I have disposed of my previous ECMA CD-ROMs, but maybe
Nick,
this is what ECMA-97 used to be (from an earlier version of the ECMA
CD-ROM):
Standard ECMA-97
Local Area Networks - Safety Requirements
2nd Edition (December 1992)
This ECMA Standard applies to networks equipment which consist of access
units, interface connectors and the design of
Hi Kate:
a) Do they allow presence in lab (technical area) itself ? If not, then
where are clients who are at the lab normally placed?
Depends on whether the lab is testing a competitor's
products. If not, then I can usually observe the
testing.
If I can't go into the lab to
Hello, Folks -
Can you share with me how your favourite/preferred lab(s) handle client
presence during testing? I'd like to know
a) Do they allow presence in lab (technical area) itself ? If not, then
where are clients who are at the lab normally placed?
b) Are engineering/design type tests
Hi Geoff,
The criteria for particular conditions is section 7.2 in EN55024. The
generic immunity spec EN50082-1 is similar to general performance criteria
of section 7.1 in EN55024. Annex A criteria A is for Radiated and Conducted
RF immunity only (not for ESD, EFT or Surges). Tables 1 to 4
A client has asked about ECMA standards. Apparently they have to
respond to a tender document which requires compliance with ECMA 97.
There would appear to be no mention of ECMA 97 on their web site. I'd
be interested to hear from anyone who has any information on this
standard, and in
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