Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
Gerry, that number sounds familiar. John Shinn Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 18, 2019, at 11:50 AM, Ghery S. Pettit wrote: > > > I know it is in VDE 0871/6.78, so it dates back to at least June of 1978. I > don’t know about anything prior to that. VDE 0871/6.78 is also the only > place I’ve seen a requirement that if a single unit is tested then a 2 dB > margin is required. > > Ghery S. Pettit iNCE > Pettit EMC Consulting LLC > > > From: John Woodgate > Sent: Monday, November 18, 2019 11:47 AM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule > > I agree: I'm almost certain that it is German in origin, and I'm sure it > dates back to the 20th Century, possibly as early as 1960. > > Best wishes > John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only > J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk > Rayleigh, Essex UK > On 2019-11-18 19:44, John Shinn wrote: > If my memory serves me right, as I recall, the 80/80 rule was in at least one > of the VDE standards regarding radiated emissions. I can’t recall the number > or name. This is going back to the late ‘70s or so. > > John Shinn > Retired > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Nov 18, 2019, at 9:55 AM, John Woodgate wrote: > > > Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards > and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? > > -- > Best wishes > John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only > J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk > Rayleigh, Essex UK > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used > formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas > Mike Cantwell > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher > David Heald > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used > formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas > Mike Cantwell > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher > David Heald > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used > formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas > Mike Cantwell > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher > David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] 80/80 rule
If my memory serves me right, as I recall, the 80/80 rule was in at least one of the VDE standards regarding radiated emissions. I can’t recall the number or name. This is going back to the late ‘70s or so. John Shinn Retired Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 18, 2019, at 9:55 AM, John Woodgate wrote: > > > Can someone tell me when the 80/80 rule was introduced into CISPR standards > and if possible, a bit more detail than just the date, please? > > -- > Best wishes > John Woodgate OOO-Own Opinions Only > J M Woodgate and Associates www.woodjohn.uk > Rayleigh, Essex UK > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used > formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas > Mike Cantwell > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher > David Heald - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas Mike Cantwell For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: David Heald:
Re: [PSES] Pilot rating
Gerry, I had the same impression. John Shinn, PPASEL Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 7, 2017, at 1:31 PM, Ghery Pettit <n6...@comcast.net> wrote: > > I looked at the subject line and thought about something completely unrelated > – pilot ratings. I have a PP-ASEL IA. Private Pilot – Airplane, Single > Engine, Land Instrument Airplane. And you? > > Ghery S. Pettit > > From: Jon Keeble [mailto:j...@wattwatchers.com.au] > Sent: Thursday, December 7, 2017 12:29 PM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: [PSES] Pilot rating > > I am using a Panasonic AQH3213A PhotoMOS optical isolator to control a small > contactor. > > At 110VAC the contactor coil draws 30mArms. > The coil contacts are wired to a PCB via a terminal block plug and socket. > > On the PCB is a series 10ohm fusible resistor, and a SMBJ400AC bidirectional > zener. > > When the switch opens at peak current (42mA) there is 0.1J of energy in the > coil that gets absorbed by the zener. > > The zener > * clamps at a voltage way below the voltage rating of the optoMOS switch. > * is rated at 600W for 8.3msec and is subject to only 13W for a similar > period. > > The UL test engineer says that the optoMOS should be "pilot duty" rated (the > part I am using does have this rating). > > Does anyone know what triggers the requirement for a "pilot duty" rating? > Is this defined in a standard somewhere? > > This useful link identifies "contact rating codes" > https://na.industrial.panasonic.com/blog/what-pilot-duty-rating-how-it-obtained > > The lowest rating E300 is for 110V 1.8A (make) 0.3A (break) > > Technically speaking, my switch is not connected to the contactor .. there is > a two-component network in between > Does UL have the capacity or procedures in place to understand and accept a > circtuit analysis that shows my circuit as safe? > > Jon Keeble > > Wattwatchers. > > > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > <emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used > formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> > > - > > This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc > discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to > <emc-p...@ieee.org> > > All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: > http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html > > Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at > http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used > formats), large files, etc. > > Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ > Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to > unsubscribe) > List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html > > For help, send mail to the list administrators: > Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> > Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> > > For policy questions, send mail to: > Jim Bacher <j.bac...@ieee.org> > David Heald <dhe...@gmail.com> - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <emc-p...@ieee.org> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas <sdoug...@ieee.org> Mike Cantwell <mcantw...@ieee.org> For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: <j.bac...@ieee.org> David Heald: <dhe...@gmail.com>
Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object
Michael, You are dating yourself. How many people on this list know what a TO-220 is. Regards John Shinn Sent from my iPhone > On Feb 27, 2016, at 11:42 AM, Heckrotte, Michael <michael.heckro...@ul.com> > wrote: > > During college I had a summer job as an electronic technician for a company > that made panel meters. Construction was two PCBs facing each other, one on > top, one on the bottom, approximately 1" high by 2" wide meter movement on > the front side, connector on the rear side. The layout of the two boards was > coordinated so that tall components on one board would face short components > on the other. Suffice to say, not much room for airflow...furthermore it had > an unvented plastic case so couldn't even use the enclosure for heatsinking. > > Anyway one unit failed when the series pass transistor for the voltage > regulator (case style similar to TO-220, on the top board) fell out because > it got so hot it melted the solder on its leads. > > Apart from the obvious negative effect on the solder joint, it says something > about the quality of the silicon that went into that batch of transistors. > Maybe they should have put a taller component at that location on the bottom > board, the meter could have continued working a while longer...or maybe not, > the additional heat might have resulted in a fire. > > Best Regards, > Mike > > > -Original Message- > From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] > Sent: Saturday, February 27, 2016 7:06 AM > To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG > Subject: Re: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object > > Hi Brian, > > Thanks for your pointer to reference. I will search them for further > infomration. > > Apart from the semiconductor overheating, I also concern the high operating > temperature may bring negative effect to solder joints (become soft solder > and cracked joint during vibration) and other components such as solid state > capacitors and electrolytic capacitors, etc. > > Regards. > > Scott > > > >> On 27 Feb, 2016, at 1:10 am, Brian O'Connell <oconne...@tamuracorp.com> >> wrote: >> >> UL and CSA have published specific procedures and material recommendations >> for T/C use in Type Tests. Most NRTLs have some type of CIP program where a >> sample power supply is sent to a company lab to verify test technique via >> TRF data veracity. >> >> So the moral of the story is to use whatever technique that enables NRTL/NB >> acceptance of your test data. In general, cyanoacrylates are my adhesive of >> choice, along with Loctite 7452, where the attachment is only for limited >> number of tests. Adhesion is only half of the problem. The other issues that >> must be addressed are where the t/c is placed on the component, selection of >> components, and test conditions. >> >> Tape is a poor choice, for many reasons, for most power supply components. >> >> " ...operating at a temperature of 120 degC..." has no meaning. Test >> conditions and component ID? A Tj of 150deg does not mean that you are >> allowed 150deg on the component body. TI, ST, and others have published some >> good stuff on calculating component temps for power semiconductors. That >> said, not unusual for normal operating temp of some components in some SMPS >> to exceed 100deg. Of course, Arrhenius had something to say about this... >> >> In any case, just calculate power dissipation for the diode, then use to >> calc the Tj. This will be your 'sanity check'. >> >> Brian >> >> -Original Message- >> From: Scott Xe [mailto:scott...@gmail.com] >> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 8:53 AM >> To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG >> Subject: [PSES] Reliable means to attach thermocouple to object >> >> I used to attach thermocouple to the object under temperature rise test >> using Kapton tape. Currently I looked at an SMPS that is operating at a >> temperature of 120 degC under an ambient temperature of 20 degC. The tape >> seems not very reliable and rigid enough for long period of testing. Is >> there any other more suitable means to attach the thermocouple to such high >> temperature point of interest? >> >> The spec quotes the max temperature of 150 degC. Is it normal for the >> rectifier to have such high operating temperature? >> >> Thanks and regards, >> >> Scott >> >> - >> >> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society >> emc-
Re: [PSES] Caution to those who live outside of California and got there on business!!! (Don't)
From: Doug Powell Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2014 3:40 AM To: jmsh...@pacbell.net ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Caution to those who live outside of California and got there on business!!! (Don't) Just for clarification, may I get concise answers to each of these questions?1) If a non-resident consultant travels to CA to do on-site work for a client company and this consultant is paid by the company at a later time at an hourly rate, which party is responsible for paying income taxes in CA? Note that there are three ways to get paid. First is the normal W-2 employee, the second is the 1099-MISC employee, and the third is cash (we won’t discuss that one). If you are a W2 employee, Federal and State income tax, along with Social Security and Medicare will be withheld. If you are a 1099-MISC employee (Self Employed, etc.), the PAYER should withhold 7% backup withholding IF they are required to withhold backup withholding and remit to the IRS. (See Form 587 Instructions). Most likely, you will receive a Form 1099-MISC from who ever paid you. When you do your Federal Income Tax return, you would normally file your state tax return also. However, income derived form “out of state” such as CA, you would file a CA Non-resident return to include the income sourced in CA. This income would be subtracted from the income reported in your state (assuming you have to pay a state income tax). If the funds were withheld by the Payer, then you probably will already have some funds prepaid, otherwise you may have to pay some CA income tax. Note also that backup withholding begins at above $1500. 2) If a non-resident consultant does remote work for a client based in CA, is there then no concern for CA taxes for the consultant? This should not be a concern. Let’s assume that a CA firm sends you a product to test in your lab outside of CA. This would be income derived in your state and NOT CA. The same would be if you are simply telecommuting and not located in CA. 3) If such taxes are paid in CA, by one party or the other, is it true that this income should not be taxed in other states? Yes. See above 4) If this has been in effect for several years, is it possible these client companies have paid this tax all along without the knowledge of the consultant? Probably not. You would normally receive a statement (1099-MISC) indicating funds paid to you and any funds withheld. 5) How is this monitored or enforced and can it be retroactive? Like most taxes, it is part of an Honorary system. However, sometimes a paper trail exists such as a W2 or Form 1099. The Franchise Tax Board (FTB) then may contact you for back taxes (typically up to 3 years). When a paper train does not exist, you may want to talk to your tax advisor. 6) Is this also true of other locations in the USA? Some state may, or may not, have and backup withholding requirements, but those that do have state income tax with have provisions for Non-Resident income taxes. If I understand correctly, this would seem to run afoul of most consulting agreements. Nearly always, there is a section on taxes, stating the client company is not responsible. Not really. In any case, you are responsible for paying the applicable taxes. Whether the Payer withholds the taxes is irrelevant. I hope this clears up some the this confusing issue. Generally, I would not expect this to be of great concern. More information can be found at www.ftb.ca.gov and search for backup withholding. John Thanks, - doug Douglas Powell http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01 From: John Shinn Sent: Wednesday, September 3, 2014 12:07 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: John Shinn Subject: Re: [PSES] Caution to those who live outside of California and got there on business!!! (Don't) This issue has been in effect since Jan. 1, 2010. See: https://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/2013/13_587.pdf or: https://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/2014/14_587.pdf If you are a consultant (i.e. – Self Employed), the company you performed the services for is required to send you a Form 1099-MISC if your income exceeds $600. CA requires them to to withhold 7% (certain exceptions apply). This basically means that CA wants their share of the state taxes from income sourced in CA. I can understand your frustration with the situation. It is not all that uncommon. See my other comments later. FYI, in addition to my own Engineering Management consulting, I am also a Registered Tax Professional with both the IRS and CA. I hope that sheds some light on the situation. Regards, John Shinn, Ph.D., P.E. -Original Message- From: Ken Javor Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 7:27 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Caution to those who live outside of California and got there on business!!! (Don't) Unless you're in show business. There's no business like
Re: [PSES] Caution to those who live outside of California and got there on business!!! (Don't)
This issue has been in effect since Jan. 1, 2010. See: https://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/2013/13_587.pdf or: https://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/2014/14_587.pdf If you are a consultant (i.e. – Self Employed), the company you performed the services for is required to send you a Form 1099-MISC if your income exceeds $600. CA requires them to to withhold 7% (certain exceptions apply). This basically means that CA wants their share of the state taxes from income sourced in CA. I can understand your frustration with the situation. It is not all that uncommon. See my other comments later. FYI, in addition to my own Engineering Management consulting, I am also a Registered Tax Professional with both the IRS and CA. I hope that sheds some light on the situation. Regards, John Shinn, Ph.D., P.E. -Original Message- From: Ken Javor Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 7:27 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Caution to those who live outside of California and got there on business!!! (Don't) Unless you're in show business. There's no business like show business - it's subsidized by the taxes everyone else pays. Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: Nyffenegger, Dave dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com Reply-To: Nyffenegger, Dave dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2014 00:21:20 + To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Conversation: [PSES] Caution to those who live outside of California and got there on business!!! (Don't) Subject: Re: [PSES] Caution to those who live outside of California and got there on business!!! (Don't) So if my employer who is not CA based but does have other direct employees in CA, sends me to CA for a few days to work, they have to take out the CA income tax too? No. Withholding is not required if payees (YOUR COMPANY) are residents or have a permanent place of business in California. That would be the case as sited above. Seems like CA has put up a big closed for business sign. -Dave -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2014 6:16 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Caution to those who live outside of California and got there on business!!! (Don't) Doug, Thank you so much for pointing this out. I have many CA customers, but luckily to date it has all been remote. Rest assured that in the future it will stay that way! Ken Javor Phone: (256) 650-5261 From: Doug Smith d...@emcesd.com Organization: D. C. Smith Consultants Reply-To: d...@dsmith.org Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2014 14:37:05 -0700 To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] Caution to those who live outside of California and got there on business!!! (Don't) Hi All, Just a note to those of you, especially consultants, but potentially anyone who visits California, even for a day, on business. What is happening is that they want to have whoever pays you (if they are located in CA) and your payment is CA sourced withhold a percentage of your CA sourced income. This means you would pay CA tax on income earned in CA. However, you would have to file a non-resident return in CA and a regular return in your home state. But, the income earned in CA should not be taxed in your home state, and any income earned in your home state would not be taxed in CA. CA has new rules that require companies there (they don't all know about it yet but will be in trouble after the first of the year if they don't) to withhold CA income tax from payments made to people from out of state if any of the work was done in CA. You need to fill out a tax form for every job/trip! It is California Form 587, Nonresident Withholding Allocation Worksheet. In my case the client ignored the form and sent the maximum 7% of the gross proceeds in to CA. The company for whom you do work is required to deduct 7% from the gross payment to you, no allowance for expenses or, at least for the last job I did, the fact the job required 3 days in NV and two in CA. They took out 7% and sent it to the CA state government. The accounting for this is going to be tricky as you have to keep track and justify how much of the work was in CA and how much elsewhere. In the end, CA may extract up to 10% of your payment, 13% if you are really well off. I suspect the accounting and submitting tax forms will cost as much as the tax, or more. So starting now I am dividing my fee by 0.93 to cover the tax and probably need to at least double that to cover my time and the accountants time to keep track of all of this. I am thinking along the lines of $500/day additional to CA companies until I get a better idea of what this is going to cost. Although we don't have an income tax in NV they get it in other ways, such as $2000/year from me for a special rental car tax meant to hit tourists, as well as other taxes. I you come in from Massachusetts, for instance, you
Re: [PSES] standards update and legal madness
1. John Woodgate makes an excellent point regarding why didn't the manufacture know about the Standard Changes. 2. Does the manufacturer build to the customer's prints and requirements? If so, why didn't the customer know about the Standard Changes? John Shinn -Original Message- From: John Woodgate Sent: Friday, November 08, 2013 11:45 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] standards update and legal madness In message 518cfcd229674efe916347038430c...@blupr02mb116.namprd02.prod.outlook.com , dated Fri, 8 Nov 2013, Brian Oconnell oconne...@tamuracorp.com writes: A company makes a component for North American market designed for the needs of a single customer. The company received notices from CSA and UL with tabulation of standards corrections. The company informed affected customer of time and cost to update. H'mmm. Why didn't the manufacturer know about the changes to the standards? Or is it a case of a running product that now needs to conform to updated, **improved** standards? That's how the real world works, not how the inhabitants of Planet Legal might like it to work. The company then receives letter from the customer's legal dweebs - they want to see complete list of organizations and individuals that contributed to the errors that caused a mandatory update to the standard. I'd be inclined to say that the culprits, if there are any, are UL and CSA and their managers! Standards committee members offer their work for approval at several stages in the organizations before the work is published. There is a big and vulnerable assumption that 'errors' are involved, but a defence based on 'state of the art' can be problematical because the legal people who have to present the case, however intelligent, cannot possibly absorb all the background that is involved in determining 'state of the art'. For example, what has been done once, or even a hundred times, in a university laboratory isn't state of the art in the real world. It's only state of the art if you can buy it or manufacture it. The company's customer is considering pursuing a tort for lost opportunity and professional incompetence. Has this ever been done? Has a member of a TC/WG ever been served with a subpoena for this stuff? Is this stupid or just insane? It is beside the point but in Britain the British Standards Institution has legal protection against such an action. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Nondum ex silvis sumus John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit
and the number of lawyers. From: Derek Walton Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2013 4:32 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit Doug has a point, the laws are available, and we can get access for free. The problem is we spend our lives trying to find which laws we have to comply with, then more than likely have lawyers try to agree what they really meant when it was written! Time we reduced the number of laws Derek. Sent from my iPad On Oct 7, 2013, at 16:41, Doug Powell doug...@gmail.com wrote: Cortland I am not certain you speed limit example explains the point you are trying to make. Here in Colorado we have the Colorado Revised Statutes, or CRS. In these laws are all the requirements for citizens to follow so they are in compliance with the law. In practice posted speed limits are akin to the warning labels we put on products like: Danger High Voltage or Speed Limit 65. In my state we can go to the government website and read any portion of the CRS for free. Same with the US Code of Federal Regulations. Now, if this were available only by paid subscription, then your point would be made. Of course, how many citizens actually read the law in its entirety? I suspect it is less than even 1%. Hence the need for posted cautionary and warning statements. Doug From: Cortland Richmond Sent: Monday, October 7, 2013 12:32 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Reply To: k...@earthlink.net Subject: Re: [PSES] Standards copyright lawsuit The problem is, of course, that by incorporating copyrighted documents into the Code of Federal Regulations by reference, various agencies render invisible laws we are all required to obey -- unless we go to their reading rooms (I think) to find out. In practice? We on this list work or have worked for firms who could afford to buy copies of their own. But imagine one day finding that one has been convicted in absentia of speeding through a town without speed limit signs, limits available only by subscription. Cortland Richmond On 10/7/2013 1135, Peter Tarver wrote: There is occasionally much haranguing regarding how standards should be free. The NFPA has joined ASHRAE and ASTM to claim otherwise. Regards, Peter L. Tarver - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to unsubscribe) List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas
Re: [PSES] EMC Required?
Scott: I think you are correct, but for the wrong reasons. As I understand your product, it apparently is a small IR detector circuit (board?) which will be sold to an OEM for incorporation into their product such as a TV for use in changing channels, etc.. In all probability, the power for your unit is provided by the OEM, so you unit is sold without a power supply or battery. Therefore, you would not need to have an EMC Certification on the unit itself. However, you may be required to make sure it does not cause the OEM’s product to NOT comply with the applicable EMC Requirements. Hopefully I have described your product and your marketing position sufficiently. Regards, John Shinn, P.E. Retired From: Scott Douglas Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2013 7:43 PM To: Grace Lin Cc: Bill Owsley ; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: EMC Required? Grace and Bill, Here is an excerpt from the FCC Rules: 15.3 Definitions (k) Digital device. (Previously defined as a computing device). An unintentional radiator (device or system) that generates and uses timing signals or pulses at a rate in excess of 9,000 pulses (cycles) per second and uses digital techniques; Semantic argument coming. My device previously described does not generate the pulses. It may transform these pulses but does not generate (create) them. Reading the sentence above the operative terms are generates AND uses. And, because of the AND, since we do not generate then it makes no difference if we use the signals. My translation is we do not generate therefore Part 15 does not apply to this specific product. Okay, Kevlar donned, looking for arguments. Best to all, Scott On 7/15/2013 4:38 AM, Grace Lin wrote: Bill and Scott, Since the operating frequency is higher than 9 kHz, FCC Part 15, Subpart B-Unintentional Radiators applies. It is my understanding that an IR device doesn't need certification. I hope this helps. Best regards, Grace Lin On Fri, Jul 12, 2013 at 9:51 PM, Bill Owsley wdows...@yahoo.com wrote: For the USA, any electrical signal above 9 kHz meets the requirement to be tested. I think we will find similar for the EU. EN 300 330, or 300 440, or something like that. It has power and a switch and generates frequencies above the lower limit - it gets tested. ps. that means the device will need to be activated into its operating condition for testing. But if there is an exclusion list... I'm very interested! -- From: Scott Douglas sdoug...@radiusnorth.net To: emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: Friday, July 12, 2013 9:47 AM Subject: EMC Required? Hi folks, Consider a simple circuit. IR diode, a transistor or two, some resistors and caps. Receives input from IR remote, converts to electrical and sends down a wire. No clock in the thing so you could call is passive. But does it need EMC testing for US or EU? The IR signal will be in the 35-50 kHz range so pulses down the wire will be the same. Does this make it fit within the realm of EMC required? The device is sold by itself without other products, but is always connected to something else in use. Something else could be a wide variety of anything. I think of it like a stand-alone audio speaker. Purely a passive device that is driven by signals that fall within the EMC required realm. So do you do EMC or not? Looking forward to your opinions on this. Scott - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to LT;emc-p...@ieee.orgGT; All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted
Re: [PSES] Review: Bay Area electronic surplus stores
Ken: That was an excellent job of finding all of those component and surplus stores here in the south bay. John Shinn From: Ken Wyatt Sent: Monday, April 29, 2013 2:20 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Review: Bay Area electronic surplus stores Hi All, Just for fun...I reviewed the majority of electronics surplus stores in the South Bay Area during my activities at Design West (San Jose) last week. Living in Colorado, there are only two decent electronic surplus stores in the state. So, when I traveled to the Bay Area for an EMC presentation this last week, I took the opportunity to spend one day exploring and reviewing the collection of electronic surplus stores centered in the Sunnyvale, Santa Clara and San Jose area. http://www.tmworld.com/electronics-blogs/the-emc-blog/4412972/Review--Bay-Area-surplus-stores Cheers, Ken ___ Kenneth Wyatt Wyatt Technical Services LLC Woodland Park, CO k...@emc-seminars.com Web Newsletter Connect with me on LinkedIn! - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Testing EUT
For your information: exercition - Function: noun Etymology: Middle English exercitacioun, from Latin exercitation-, exercitatio, from exercitare Date: 14th century A more modern term - Exercise exercision appears to be an archaic version of exercising. John Shinn -Original Message- From: Ron Pickard Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 3:26 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: [PSES] Testing EUT Actually, I think exercition may be a French word as I seem to recall seeing it used in French text a few years ago, but I may be mistaken and probably am. Not sure about exercision, but it may have a similar meaning as exercition, but yet in another language. Or, is Gert actually testing us? :-) Best regards, Ron -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2012 1:55 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Testing EUT In message FCA549BE3ECF9D4CB8CB8576837EA489140AA0@ZEUS.cetest.local, dated Wed, 31 Oct 2012, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl writes: Exercise / Exercising / Exercision / Exercition(of a EUT in order to have it tested) To exercise - verb Exercising - participle (I am exercising the EUT) or gerund (Exercising the EUT is an essential step.) Exercision - rare word, not in Chambers' dictionary Exercition - very rare word, possibly extinct. A form of 'exercitation', also very rare? -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk The longer it takes to make a point, the more obtuse it proves to be. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] thermal resistance - K versus C
Naftali is correct in that Kelvin is an extension of °C, only offset so that 0 Kelvin is at absolute zero, or -273.15 °C. When referring to a Delta-T, the number is the same whether in Kelvin or °C. Be aware that the specs noted are Delta-T/Watt, not actual temperatures. Also, Theta JS is Junction to (heat)Sink. I don't know what a solder-point is. Please enlighten. I have not worked much with SMT, so I may be showing my age. John Shinn, P.E. -Original Message- From: N. Shani Sent: Tuesday, October 09, 2012 3:22 PM To: McInturff, Gary Cc: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: thermal resistance - K versus C K or C are (almost) identical, just the starting point is different: C starts @ 0 (freezing temperature for distilled water at sea level pressure, i.e., 1 atmosphere), and defines 100 as boiling of same conditions. K is the same as C, but is off-set by 273 (i.e., 0 K is -273 C, so 100 C is 373 K). What transformation did you use to get those weird numbers? Cheers, N. Shani Ottawa, ON On 10/9/12, McInturff, Gary gary.mcintu...@esterline.com wrote: Thought I knew what I was doing, obviously I don't I have a device with a thermal resistance ThetaJA (J-P in this documentation). It's for SMT CHIP LED the specified value is 400C/W. for a plastic package that seems about right. I am looking at another LED but it lists ThetaJA as 400K/W. (Kelvin/Watt) Seems pretty good as it would convert to 126C/W - the lower the better. But then I converted the ThetaJS (I think its junction - solder point), and that value was 180K/W. When converted its -93C. Does the change in sign just indicate the direction heat is flowing? ThetaJA is positive since the heat is leaving the die through the package, and the ThetaJS is negative because it is heating entering the die through the solder process? Gary McInturff Reliability/Compliance Engineer Esterline Interface Technologies Featuring ADVANCED INPUT, MEMTRON, and LRE MEDICAL products 600 W. Wilbur Avenue Coeur d'Alene, ID 83815-9496 Office:208-635-8306 Cell: 509 868 2279 Toll Free: 800-444-5923 X 1238 gary.mcintu...@esterline.commailto:brian.s...@esterline.com www.esterline.com/interfacetechnologieshttp://www.esterline.com/advancedinput Technology, Innovation, Performance... - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] database
I may be dating myself, but I still have my original super pong. I just cannot find a TV that I can use it with. John Shinn From: Ed Price Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 2:00 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: [PSES] database Jim: And for the 90% of us who are not using those insanely incredible machines, but who also remember how to code, I can’t see why Excel wouldn’t handle all the sorting and flagging you would ever need. As for storing the documents, just establish a protocol for naming them, enter them as a field in your Excel sheet, and make them clickable links. You do your sorting and flagging and checking, and just click on any entry you want to go to. No servers, no clouds, and you already own a copy (Mac people must have something equivalent, I hope). BTW, 40th anniversary of the introduction of Pong! I’m out of quarters! Ed Price El Cajon, CA USA From: Derek Walton [mailto:lfresea...@aol.com] Sent: Friday, June 29, 2012 8:47 AM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] database Hi Jim, I back what Ken says. But, for those of us that use real computers, MAC's, you may want to consider filemaker. http://www.filemaker.com/ Sincerely, Derek. -Original Message- From: Ken Wyatt k...@emc-seminars.com To: Goedderz, Jim jgoedd...@tycoint.com Cc: EMC-PSTC EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Sent: Fri, Jun 29, 2012 10:42 am Subject: Re: [PSES] database We created a homebrew regs database for Agilent products and because it was completely custom, required months of effort just to get the first working version - and then years of maintenance to get it working optimally. I'd stick with something off the shelf, as you've specified, and perhaps cloud-based. Here's a list of some popular packages: http://database.software.informer.com/software/. I've not found anything specifically designed for product regulations. Ken ___ Kenneth Wyatt Wyatt Technical Services LLC Woodland Park, CO Email Me! | Web Site | Blog The EMC Blog (TM World) Subscribe to Newsletter Connect with me on LinkedIn On Jun 29, 2012, at 9:15 AM, Goedderz, Jim wrote: Group, We’ve been discussing getting a database that would include all our products, and their status as pertains to safety, emc, etc. The object is to be able to sort and see which products have missing certifications, all certifications, etc. and can also store the documents. Can anyone suggest a program that is off the shelf for this use? Thank you. James Goedderz Sr. Principal Engineer-Product Safety Sensormatic Electronics, LLC 561.912.6378 - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] TIA-968-A failure modes, notwithstanding...
Mark and Cortland are both correct. For type A surges, the surges may damage the unit under test, but the unit cannot cause harm to the network after the surge, irregardless of of its operating condition. The most common “Harm” would be for the unit to go “off hook” in a permanent condition. However, for a type B surge, the unit must not fail and continue to meet the requirements of the standard. This was originally a requirement in the original FCC Part 68 and was continued when I wrote (as editor) the TIA/EIA 968 document. John Shinn, Ph.D., P.E. Retired From: Dan Roman Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:26 PM To: Mark Gandler ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: [PSES] TIA-968-A failure modes, notwithstanding... Hi Mark, I’ll reference TIA-968-B since it is the latest version of the standard. Under section 4.1 Environmental Simulation it states: Unpackaged approved terminal equipment and approved protective circuitry shall comply with all the criteria specified in this Standard, both prior to and after application of the mechanical and electrical stresses specified in this section. I think that pretty much says it all. So after all the mechanical shock and surges you cannot fail any of the other criteria. Hopefully if you are a piece of POTS equipment you fail on-hook which would simplify things somewhat. Failing off-hook could be tough to pass. If your equipment suffers catastrophic damage it needs to go down benignly with respect to the harms-based philosophy of the standard. Being non-operational cuts out a lot of testing. You can’t fail signal power level limitations if you are not outputting any signal for example. I have not thumbed through Part 68 lately but there may be more detail in there. A member of this list was one of the contributors to TIA-968-B and may chime in on this topic. Dan From: Mark Gandler [mailto:markgand...@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 2:52 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] TIA-968-A failure modes, notwithstanding... Dan, Your equipment may fail or be completely destroyed but it cannot take the network with it this was my understanding as well (regardless of how poorly and senseless the standard written), but clearly it is not the sam understanding across the labs. Are where any guidance, f.a.q's or interpretations documents, articles published anywhere regarding this subject? After the failure mode the applicable tests are repeated to make sure you product does not harm the network even if your product no longer operates. if the product is completely destroyed, would it be there nothing left to repeat the tests with? Mark From: dan.ro...@dialogic.com To: markgand...@hotmail.com; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Date: Fri, 10 Feb 2012 13:24:16 -0500 Subject: RE: [PSES] TIA-968-A failure modes, notwithstanding... Mark, Your equipment may fail or be completely destroyed but it cannot take the network with it. After the failure mode the applicable tests are repeated to make sure you product does not harm the network even if your product no longer operates. Dan From: Mark Gandler [mailto:markgand...@hotmail.com] Sent: Friday, February 10, 2012 12:48 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: [PSES] TIA-968-A failure modes, notwithstanding... Group, trying to get to the bottom of the statement some of you saw many times over. Test is a power line surge, section 4.2.4 of TIA-968-A. This is a quote: Failure Modes resulting from application of power line surge. Approved terminal equipment and approved protective circuitry shall comply with all the criteria in this standard, both prior to and after the application of the power line surge specified in 4.2.4, notwithstanding that this surge may result in partial or total destruction of the equipment under test The use of the word notwithstanding is quite common throughout this standard. Been somewhat late English language acquirer, I looked it up in Merriam-Webster and easiest one for me was in spite of. There are many different types of surge test pass/failure criteria's throughout 61000-4, GR1089 and others, from no traffic errors during the surge to it is ok if it falls apart, as long as it does not catch on fire and does not kill anyone. But these requirements are clearly defined in each standard. My question for TIA-968-A is: how can something be compliant with all the criteria in this standard in spite of been totally destructed? Does it mean it is ok if power adapter or power supply is dead or entire product, including voice port can be out? Test Lab did the 2.5kV test, power adapter stopped producing DC, but no arcing, burning or enclosure breach. Lab concluded the failure. I am probably missing something very obvious, so please be gentle. Thank you, Mark
Re: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings
The issue is that you said most, not all. John Shinn -Original Message- From: Richard Nute Sent: Saturday, January 28, 2012 1:23 PM To: 'John Woodgate' ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: [PSES] Is this common knowledge - Electrical Ratings The ratings could just as well be in the accompanying documents. ... which are thrown away, no, sorry, *recycled*, with the packaging. Of course. But, as I said before, why do I need to know the ratings? Especially after the equipment is installed? Most manufacturers now provide e-copies on the web. So, I can get most any accompanying documents at any time. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: [PSES] Quasi-peak
Actually there are FIVE: YES NO MAYBE DON'T KNOW DON'T CARE John Shinn, Ph.D., PE -Original Message- From: Sundstrom, Michael Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 10:55 AM To: John Woodgate ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: RE: [PSES] Quasi-peak Richard Schultz (of ANSI C63) always told me there were 3 answer to any EMC question asking about 'if' it will affect something? YES NO MAYBE I'd guess Mr. Schultz knew enough to say that! Michael Sundstrom OHD / TREQ Dallas Electronic Lab Analyst, EMC Lead 2170 French Settlement Rd, Suite B Dallas, Texas 75212 (214) 579 6312 (940) 390 3644c KB5UKT Albert Einstein once said, The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2011 12:22 PM To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG Subject: Re: [PSES] Quasi-peak In message 2b83256001484461b5f6adf4c41df...@tamuracorp.com, dated Thu, 1 Dec 2011, Brian Oconnell oconne...@tamuracorp.com writes: But the question remains - does this spread-spectrum stuff, for a comparative power level, increase or decrease interference with my master-blaster 5000 remote toilet controller? As is very common with such EMC questions, the answer is a definite 'maybe'. Closely define the environment, separation and the immunity characteristics of your robot loo and you may get a slightly more definite 'maybe'. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK Some people who are peeling the finch of the financial crisis are thinking of biting a rook. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@radiusnorth.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Microwave Oven Interference with 2.4Ghz Wireless LAN
Hi Gherry: Just remember that when you pull back on the yoke (stick), the houses get smaller, but if you keep pulling back they get bigger again. John From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Pettit, Ghery Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 2:24 PM To: Conway, Patrick R (Houston); Brian O'Connell; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Microwave Oven Interference with 2.4Ghz Wireless LAN Nothing much of interest. It's about as interesting as getting a sports car up to about 75 mph and pulling back on the wheel. Not much happens. Now, do that in a small airplane and pull back on the wheel. Yippee! From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Conway, Patrick R (Houston) Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 2:20 PM To: Brian O'Connell; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Microwave Oven Interference with 2.4Ghz Wireless LAN ...circling back to an old thread: What would happen if we placed 8 access points in a circle around some popcorn? YouTube here we come! Best Regards, Patrick. p.con...@hp.com From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Brian O'Connell Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 4:00 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Microwave Oven Interference with 2.4Ghz Wireless LAN Recently we added two new food blasters to the lunch room and noted that some office areas no longer had reliable network connect. Installed some isolation transformers between building mains and the food blasters - no more complaints from the sales/accounting dweebs, or whatever they do. Also noted that some of the power to the lunch room does not have a separate ground wire - uses the metal conduit, which probably does not help much. As for the specific ID of these iso transformers, hmmm... we no longer make this particular model. But I am going to upgrade my tin-foil hat, as I very much suspect that the space aliens are using the 2.4GHz carrier to link our brains to the NSA computers... luck, Brian From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org]On Behalf Of don_borow...@selinc.com Sent: Monday, October 06, 2008 1:27 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Cc: brian_ku...@lecotc.com Subject: Re: Microwave Oven Interference with 2.4Ghz Wireless LAN Except for rebuilding the break rooms with foil-lined dry wall, metal flooring, screened windows, filtered power, waveguide-beyond-cutoff ventilation grills, and RF tight doors, I don't know there is much for a solution. I was told that in one major Boeing plant, communications as 2.4 GHz is all but impossible -- there are microwave ovens scattered around the various break rooms running off of all three phases of the electrical power (120/208 volts Y); and due to variety of manufacturers, generating RF during both polarities of each phase. In other words, continuous 2.4 GHz RF. Except for specialize industrial units, I don't think you will find microwave ovens running at any other frequency. Don Borowski Schweitzer Engineering Labs Pullman, WA, USA Kunde, Brian brian_kunde@leco tc.com To Sent by: emc-pstc emc-p...@ieee.org emc-p...@ieee.org cc Subject 10/06/2008 01:02 Microwave Oven Interference with PM2.4Ghz Wireless LAN I have just received and interesting call from our IT guys in our production facility. They have installed a 2.4Ghz wireless LAN system in our production and stock room areas, which is a huge area, and which includes 13 Access Points and a couple dozen wireless devices such as bar code readers, computers, and printers. They discovered that they are having a major interference problem which they have narrowed down to the Microwave Ovens in the two break areas. Evidently, Microwave Ovens run at 2.45Ghz. It would be very difficult to remove the ovens or to move the break areas. Have any of you experts have experience with this issue? Any suggestions? Are new ovens better then older ones? Are the microwave ovens that run at a different frequency? Would it help to try and shield the ovens better? Please help. The Other Brian LECO Corporation Notice: This communication may contain confidential information intended for the named recipient(s) only. If you received this by mistake, please destroy it and notify us of the error. Thank you. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are
RE: RF What-if (was: RE: Another Cancer Scare?)
Sorry -- Something got lost in the translation. Try again. It was not supposed to be a map. Apparently the p got lost. http://tinyurl.com/69na9p John From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Shinn Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 5:35 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: RF What-if (was: RE: Another Cancer Scare?) Take a look at this. http://tinyurl.com/69na9 Regards, John Shinn, P.E. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: RF What-if (was: RE: Another Cancer Scare?)
I agree with both Ted and Conan. It most likely is a hoax, but it fits the topic. In Fact, I am quite sure it is a hoax. John From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Boyle, Conan Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:45 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: RF What-if (was: RE: Another Cancer Scare?) Fun to watch, but a hoax. http://www.snopes.com/science/cookegg.asp Regards, Conan From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ted Eckert Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2008 9:44 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: RF What-if (was: RE: Another Cancer Scare?) It is an interesting video, but it could easily have been staged. The view under the table was blocked and we are presented with only a narrow view of events seen through the camera's lens. It would be easy enough to run and document a scientific experiment. I doubt you will find any such experiment on the web or anywhere else. The whole concept seems a bit outlandish. Put a few kernels of corn in a microwave oven and you will find that it takes much longer. Am I to believe that a 1000 watt oven designed to contain the energy within a fixed space has more trouble popping corn than a few low power cell phones can do in open space? Am I to believe that a cell phone can pop corn within seconds yet causes no noticeable heating to my hand when I hold it when it rings? The amount of energy required to raise the water in one kernel of corn to boiling is very low. It takes only 418 mW to raise one milligram of water 100 degrees Celsius. However, the actual energy reaching a kernel of corn from the cell phone is going to be far less than that. The phone's energy is not concentrated in one direction. It is interesting to me that the cell phones' antenna tips are pointed at the corn even though that is not the direction that the most energy would be radiated. This appears to be a well staged hoax but nothing more. Ted Eckert The opinions expressed are my own and do not necessarily reflect those of my employer. --- On Mon, 8/18/08, John Shinn jmsh...@pacbell.net wrote: From: John Shinn jmsh...@pacbell.net Subject: RE: RF What-if (was: RE: Another Cancer Scare?) To: emc-p...@ieee.org Date: Monday, August 18, 2008, 8:32 PM Sorry -- Something got lost in the translation. Try again. It was not supposed to be a map. Apparently the p got lost. http://tinyurl.com/69na9p John -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Shinn Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 5:35 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: RF What-if (was: RE: Another Cancer Scare?) Take a look at this. http://tinyurl.com/69na9 Regards, John Shinn, P.E. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc
RE: RF What-if (was: RE: Another Cancer Scare?)
Take a look at this. http://tinyurl.com/69na9 Regards, John Shinn, P.E. - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list.Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald:emc-p...@daveheald.com All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Q. on Res Bandwith performace traceabiity
Fred: Correction - a dBV is referenced to 1 Volt. R or Z has nothing to do with it. A dBmv is referenced to one millivolt. R or Z has nothing to do with it. You are correct in stating a dBm is referenced to 1 milliwatt into a specific Z (600 ohms). Also note that a dB is dimensionless. However, when we add various notations after the dB part, it is no longer dimensionless. For example, what is the dimensions of an antenna factor in dB? John Shinn, P.E. From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of f...@dctolight.net Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 1:21 PM To: ken.ja...@emccompliance.com Cc: f...@dctolight.net; cgrassospri...@earthlink.net; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Q. on Res Bandwith performace traceabiity Incorrect. A dB is a dB. Correct! But who is talking about db? I'm sure you know that db is a dimensionless ratio. I believe we were discussing power. Let’s make sure we all have the formula: db = 10 log (P1/P2) or = 20 log (V1/V2) + 10 log (Z2/Z1) A quick scan of the formula will show that we multiply the voltage term by twice as much as the power term. Also, if Z1=Z2, then we have 10 log of 1 or zero so the impedance (resistance in this case) term drops out. OK now here is the important part. To convert db from a ratio to units of power we define 0dbm = 1mwatt into 600 ohms. Since not everyone measures power we also define 0dbv = 1 mvolt into 600 ohms. Since a millivolt into 600 ohms is not a milliwatt into 600 ohms, using the formula P = (V squared)/R, we find that 0 dbm is (almost) equal to 6 dbv into 600 ohms. Finally back to the point at hand, if the scale on our meter is in dbm then the half power point is at -3 dbm (not -3 db). If the scale is in dbv then the half power point is – 6 dbv (not -6db). In this context -3 dbm is equivalent to -6 dbv. I apologize to all for using the equal sign instead of the equivalent. I think my statements are otherwise accurate. And to give Ken his due, a db is unquestionably equal to itself. QED Fred Townsend 3 dB down is half power but 70.7% voltage. 6 dB down is 1/4 power, or one half voltage or current. on 8/31/03 10:42 AM, f...@dctolight.net at f...@dctolight.net wrote: A few basics: If we are talking about power points (no software puns intended) then it is the 3 db points. If we are taking about voltage (or current) points then it is the 6 db points. As the professors would say, it is left to the student to prove that 3 dbm = 6 dbv through the formula P = EE/R. QED? My understanding is that it is the 6 dB points which are cited as the bandwidth. I'm not up on CISPR 16 but to entirely specify the bandwidth the 60 dB down points are also specified. The slope you get from the 6 dB to the 60 dB points is called the shape factor. From: Charles Grasso cgrassospri...@earthlink.net Reply-To: Charles Grasso cgrassospri...@earthlink.net Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 07:06:13 -0700 To: Emc-Pstc emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Q. on Res Bandwith performace traceabiity Greetings: Does anyone know if the Resolution Bandwidth filter performance is tracable to a given standard and which standard that might be? I was wondering if the rool-off after the 3dB points is specificed as a standard for ALL analysers. I am assuming that the anaswer is Yes as chaos would reign!! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc -- Ken Javor EMC Compliance Huntsville, Alabama 256/650-5261
RE: Testing modes
You have already answerecd your question. First, is the device digital? Uses clocks above 9 kHz? If not, it would normally be exempt except that it may cause broadband RF during the testing phase, which I suspect is why you are questing how to comply with any EMC regulations. Second. 47CFR15.103 (c) specifically exempts a digital device used exclusively as an industrial (as you stated), commercial, or medical test equipment. I think your industrial use is your out, but still you need to consider good engineering practice. Regards, John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab Operations Sanmina-SCI From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of lfresea...@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2003 8:54 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Testing modes Hi folks, another question. I'm testing a piece of test equipment, a dielectric tester to be exact. This particular device is used in an industrial manufacturing plant to test windings on motors. The high voltage is only present for a few seconds when the test takes place. My question is, what should be the test mode. The time when the instrement is waiting for use, or the few seconds when testing? By the nature of the operation, the device can't meet the radiaated emissions limits when stressing motors because of discharges within the windings. So, is there a get-out clause anywhere? Cheers, Derek Walton L F Research.
RE: unknown safety mark
The charcter is the first letter of energy. I suspect that is is similar to the Energy Star marking. John Shinn, P.E. From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of alain.samlai (岑國綸) Sent: Monday, September 01, 2003 8:47 PM To: EMC pstc Subject: unknown safety mark Dear Group, Does anyone know what this mark (seen on a Russian product rating label) stands for? The mark is made of the Russian character for 3 inside a cercle. Many thanks Alain Sam-Lai
RE: Conducted emissions--green wire?
Several others have questioned which standard was being applied. However, when in a situation like what you described, the best way to (hopefully) answer your questions is to state show me when the tech tells you that is the way it is done. If he / she cannot provide the standard which defines the procedure, call the supervisor, manager, boss, owner, or whoever and get the situation answered to your satisfaction. If not, you may wish to considered packing up your equipment and going home. By the way, does this lab have accreditation to ISO 17025? Regards, John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab Operations Sanmina-SCI john.sh...@sanmina-sci.com From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Boris Yost Sent: Monday, July 14, 2003 10:02 AM To: Emc-Pstc@Majordomo. Ieee. Org Subject: Conducted emissions--green wire? Dear Listers: I recently watched a conducted emissions test. Said test technician connected Line to a LISN, Neutral to a LISN, and ground got stuck in a piece of foam to keep it from touching anything. This bothered me and I questioned this. However, according to said test technician, that is what they are supposed to do. The LISN's and the EUT were put on a metal table surface. The LISN's were well strapped down, but my thing was just sitting there. Doesn't this mean that the impedance of the EUT is some random number depending on the materials and surface finishes of the table, EUT, and where they put the LISN's? The stand I used for the EUT isn't really part of the EUT, just something I had to hold it up. What happens when somebody else mounts a display on a furniture lift and puts it in a piece of wooden furniture? Boris This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Monitoring Random ESD events
Eric: First, do not attach your scope (via probes) to the EUT if it generates a static charge on its own. First, it is possible to blow the front end of your scope, and secondly, a 10 Mohm impedance will probably be low enough that any charge cannot build-up to the level you want to measure. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab Operations Sanmina-SCI From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Eric Penne Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 1:38 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Monitoring Random ESD events I'm pretty new to the EMC scene and I need to monitor a product to see what kind of ESD events it generates on its own. The customer wants me to attach my oscope to their sensors and see what kind of ESD voltages their sensors see in daily operation. I know that I don't want to directly connect the oscope to the sensors while the machine is running. I was trying to figure out a way to isolate the signals on the sensors from the oscope but still get a value that is useful. I was thinking of some sort of current loop around the sensor wires. How would I correlate the current loop measurement to an ESD voltage? I'm probably not providing enough information but I'm not really sure what information will be needed. Thank you, Eric Penne epe...@ieee.org This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: emc_p...@symbol.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: IEC 61010 requirements
If he had a LOW EMI Phone, how was he able to transmit out of the OR? It is not the incidental radiation that is the problem, it is the transmitter. Also, how was he able to answer the phone and maintain sterilization? John Shinn From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of drcuthbert Sent: Monday, February 24, 2003 1:32 PM To: 'John Woodgate'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: IEC 61010 requirements Maybe he had a special low EMI cell phone? But seriously, a useful product would be a cell phone detector with an audible alarm, or a silent alarm to alert security. Dave Cuthbert From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Saturday, February 22, 2003 1:05 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: IEC 61010 requirements I read in !emc-pstc that peter merguerian pmerguerian2...@yahoo.com wrote (in 20030221231714.74613.qm...@web14806.mail.yahoo.com) about 'IEC 61010 requirements' on Fri, 21 Feb 2003: The other day, I called a surgeon and he happened to be in the operating room with his cellphone performing an operation. Does that make his cellular comply with IEC 601-1? Maybe not, but there are VERY serious EMC issues. No cell-phone should be switched on in an OR. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org Archive is being moved, we will announce when it is back on-line. All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc
RE: Real product interference source at 121 MHz
Kurt:
I am a pilot and fly in the SF Bay often. In fact, I fly out of Palo Alto.
I finally got a chance to pull out my charts. Although you are located a
couple of miles
from the west end of the Livermore (LVK) airport runway 25 L / R, there does
not
appear to be any close tower or CTAF frequency in the area.
However, BAY Approach does use 120.9 MHz for aircraft approaching from the NW
(over Marin). The modulation would be AM with plenty of power. That is the
closest
frequency in use in the area. It would appear to be intermittant since the
communication
is not continious, but on an as needed basis.
I suggest that you get a scanner or (good) spectrum analyzer and see if you
can determine
the exact frequency and modulation, if any.
John Shinn, P.E.
Manager, Lab Operations
Sanmina-SCI
john.sh...@sanmina-sci.com
From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
[mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Kurt Fischer
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2003 7:03 AM
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org
Subject: Real product interference source at 121 MHz
Hello all,
A strange request but this has become an interference issue with a sattelite
communications link There seems to be a very strong interferer at 121 MHz that
is intermittent in nature and physically located in Northern USA/Canada.
It could be the marketing of a non-compliant consumer products or perhaps some
after market sattelite rec. retro-fit kit??
Has anyone else had this experience in the last year --- (the problem was not
present 2 years ago)?
It does appear to getting worse and is spreading geographically as well.
Regards,
Kurt Fischer
Hyper Corp
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RE: FCC - Certification
Wesin: Your statement indication there is no need for FCC Certification for equipment under 47CFR Parts 15 and 18 are incorrect. There are many devices covered under Part 15 that will need Certification, and this is not limited to just Sub-parts C, D, and E. Certain Un-intentional radiators need Certification, or their equivalent Declaration of Conformity (DoC) as applicable. Part 18 is similar and need to be reviewed against a specific product. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab Operations Sanmina-SCI -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Westin Emission Sent: Wednesday, December 04, 2002 2:17 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: FCC - Certification As far as I understand, there are no needs for FCC certification for equipment covered under FCC Part 15 and 18. But if the equipment is a radio transmitter and are covered under other FCC parts 80, 87, etc, certification applies. Correct ? From the FCC Web, a list of all test firms exists. https://gullfoss2.fcc.gov/cgi-bin/ws.exe/prod/oet/forms/reports/Search_Form. hts?form=Test_Firms Quote from FCC : The following firms have submitted the information required by Section 2.948 of the FCC Rules for measuring devices subject to Certification under Parts 15 18, and have indicated that they are available to the public on a contract basis. In addition, the CAB regime exist. http://europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/international/mras-usa-eu.htm Question: 1. If these test firms carry out testing for other parts than Part 15/18, will it be accepted by FCC? 2. Can a CAB certify based on test reports from FCC listed firm, even if the test firm is not listed for testing according to Part 80, 87, etc ? Best regards Amund Westin, Oslo / Norway --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: CISPR 22 A1:2000 / QTY of Complaints
All: There are two answers here. The first is that the level of complaints is low because many people (the average non-technican citizen) does not know to whom to complain, or feel that they will not get any response (and may not). The second issue is that most regulatory bodies do not do any significant amount of investigation regarding complaints unless there is some threshold quantity of complaints regarding a certain subject. In general, in working with the FCC, I have found the enforcement activities to be complaint driven. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab Operations Sanmina-SCI -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Jim Bacher Sent: Tuesday, November 19, 2002 2:54 PM To: 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject: RE: CISPR 22 A1:2000 / QTY of Complaints Has anyone heard what the level of complaints that government agencies have been getting from devices such as ITE? I seem to remember Don Bush telling me he had discussed this with a regulatory body and found the answer was zero or near zero. Which Don pointed out meant the current levels and testing methods were sufficient or maybe too tight. Jim Can anyone tell us the driving reason behind this regulation? Was it to increase repeatability at test sites? Was it to reduce the number of interference complaints from ITE installations? --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: CE marking/testing of military equipment
John: You have made some very valid points. The World Series is a North American only game, and of course there is the American Football. Actually, somewhere in the distant past, the game was closer to Rugby and was actually kicked much more often than it is now. Someone figured out that it could be thrown (a pass) with more accuracy and the game has not been the same since. Lists / groups like this, with it's many different cultures, words, and common problems and solutions, have become a a means for us to communicate and understand each other. We see each other as different, can lightly enjoy some of the humor regarding some of these differences, and learn from the exchange. So, the real question is: When are you going to get a baseball team together and start playing for a slot in the World Series? Best regards, John Shinn -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of John Allen Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 2:32 PM To: plaw...@west.net; EMC-PSTC Subject: Re: CE marking/testing of military equipment Hi Folks Sorry - it's me again.! 'Her Majesty's Stationery Office' (HMSO is NOT the goverment standards group - it is the official government REGULATIONS publiishing site and is just like the Government Printing Office (at least, I think that is what it is called) in Washington etc. Also, I think you will find that many other countries that are not republics (God Forbid that should happen to the UK! - we already almost have President Tony Blair, and that is bad enough!) have odd names for some of their national institutions and organisations. Therefore I think I could make a few derogatory remarks about some US names and traditions - like calling a baseball or American football [??? - the ball is hardly ever kicked by anone's foot!] series, the World Series when the game in question is only played in the USA and a very few other countries) - so let's leave that type of funny remark for another time and place. Regards John Allen Technical Consultant Electromagnetics, Safety and Reliability Group ERA Technology Ltd Cleeve Rd Leatherhead Surrey KT22 7SA Tel: +44 (0) 1372-367025 (Direct) +44 (0) 1372-367000 (Switchboard) Fax: +44 (0) 1372-367102 (Fax) (but sent from my home email address!) - Original Message - From: plaw...@west.net To: EMC-PSTC emc-p...@ieee.org Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2002 10:50 PM Subject: Re: CE marking/testing of military equipment Hi Gert: I made the comment about the UK based on the following information: http://www.emctla.org/Tech%20Notes/technical_guidance_note_33.htm 2) I found the standard referred to at: http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1992/Uksi_19922372_en_1.htm See section 20. PS: I love the Brits - who else would title the government standards group 'Her Majesty's Stationery Office'! On Wed, 30 Oct 2002 20:48:18 +0100, Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl wrote: There is no ground to beieve that military equiment is to be excluded in any country in Europe. This is definitely not the case in the Netherlands. Regards, Gert Gremmen ce-test, qualified testing Rotterdam, The Netherlands http://www.ce-test.nl -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of plaw...@west.net Sent: woensdag 30 oktober 2002 18:49 To: EMC-PSTC Subject: CE marking/testing of military equipment I have a customer asking for CISPR 22 test results on a commercial power supply intended for use in military equipment in Europe. I've heard the UK excludes military equipment from CE marking. Do other countries also exclude military equipment from the EMC Directive? If CISPR standards are not used for European military equipment, would MIL-STD-461 be used? Patrick Lawler plaw...@west.net --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators
RE: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ?
You are going to have to forgive Bruce. He is originally from South Africa, transplanted first to western Canada, and now to Eastern Canada. John -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Jason Greenwood Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 11:01 AM To: douglas_beckw...@mitel.com; John Woodgate Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ? even better Nice toque, Eh? -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of douglas_beckw...@mitel.com Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 10:53 AM To: John Woodgate Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ? Eh? John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk@majordomo.ieee.org on 10/25/2002 11:01:45 AM Please respond to John Woodgate j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk Sent by: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc: Subject: Re: English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ? I read in !emc-pstc that Jacob Schanker schan...@frontiernet.net wrote (in 001301c27c1f$b550d880$6401a8c0@net1) about 'English vs. American - very off topic, but in line with current thread Re: Definition ?' on Fri, 25 Oct 2002: Back in March 2000, I wrote the following piece for The Rochester Engineer magazine. I think it fits in nicely with the current Definition ? thread contrasting English English with American English. It's 'British English', not 'English English'. Professional translators recognise them as two closely allied but distinct language variants, as are Australian and South African English. It is important to translate from, say, German, into the right one for the client. US barbecue, British barbecue, Aus barbie, SA braai, for example. I am not a professional translator, but I work in technical writing and standards writing with people from both sides of the Pond, so I tend to be able to switch from one to the other. Many of my US colleagues can also do that. We NEVER know which terms to use when addressing Canadians, and one Canadian colleague confirmed that each Canadian citizen picks his or her own selection from the two variants. (;-) There are also a few Canadian English words. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ...
David, You are right. I have a mouse that has a UL recognized mark, a GS mark, a CE mark, a NOM, a VCCI, a Tic mark, and more. And it still does not work well. John -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Clement Dave-LDC009 Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:22 PM To: 'richwo...@tycoint.com'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... Well I have a mouse with a UL listing mark a GS mark and a keyboard with a Recognized component mark a GS mark. So you are correct in that it does not work well. About 10 years ago the UL office we dealt with would not list and product that was rack mountable even though as an individual item it met all the requirements. We would have UL recognition, CSA certifcation as product and a GS mark. This has since changed. Dave Clement Motorola Inc. Test Lab Services Homologation Engineering 20 Cabot Blvd. Mansfield, MA 02048 P:508-851-8259 F:508-851-8512 C:508-725-9689 mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/ -Original Message- From: richwo...@tycoint.com [mailto:richwo...@tycoint.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 2:56 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... Well that process doesn't seem to work that well either. I have a mouse and keyboard that both have a UL Recognition mark. The mouse has a GS mark and the keyboard has a Bauart mark. Of course, the reason the keyboard has the Bauart mark rather than the GS mark is that it does not comply with the GS requirements for a German keyboard. But that does not explain the marks on the mouse. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International -Original Message- From: Clement Dave-LDC009 [mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 1:00 PM To: 'soundsu...@aol.com'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... TUV does have a mechanism, they issues the GS mark for products and the Bauart mark for components. Dave Clement Motorola Inc. Test Lab Services Homologation Engineering 20 Cabot Blvd. Mansfield, MA 02048 P:508-851-8259 F:508-851-8512 C:508-725-9689 mailto:dave.clem...@motorola.com http://www.motorola.com/globalcompliance/ -Original Message- From: soundsu...@aol.com [mailto:soundsu...@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 12:43 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Question regarding something slightly unusual ... From Doug McKean: In 20 years, I've never seen this before but that's not saying much. Why would a mfr get a UL recognition approval for a commercial ITE style single phase 155-230vac computer style product but for that same product get the TUV GS mark? Mfr is a stateside company. Product to be used in restricted areas with trained personnel only. But, one that essentially anyone could buy. What's the advantage of getting such a mixed set of approvals? It's not really a mixed set of approvals. UL must have considered the device to be incomplete in some way (does it have an enclosure?), therefore they Recognized it as a component as opposed to Listing it as a finished product. The GS Mark has no mechanism for delineating between components and finished products - both can receive GS approval. Hence the TUV GS mark. That's my guess, based on the limited information you gave. Greg Galluccio www.productapprovals.com
RE: safety testing in the USA
There has been some good responses to this post. And it is, in general, true that a manufacturer is not mandated, by law, to have the product LISTED by an appropriate Safety Testing Agency (NRTL). However, it may be required by the local inspection agency prior to installation. (This was covered in other posts). However, if you, as the customer, requests that the product be tested and listed by an applicable NRTL, and the vendor is not willing to have the product tested for compliance with the appropriate standard(s), then you should RUN to the nearest exit and find another vendor. Assume that a vendor, who is not willing to have their product tested and listed for by an appropriate testing agency, is hiding something and the vendor is aware that the product would not comply if tested. OO John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab Operations Sanmina-SCI -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of rob.humph...@reuters.com Sent: Thursday, September 19, 2002 7:46 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: safety testing in the USA Group, I am in discussions with a potential supplier of IT equipment, Its our usual policy to request testing to a listed standard such as UL 60950 for safety in North America. The supplier has replied that this is not mandatory. Is he correct? what compels safety testing for IT equipment in this geography? is it mandated by law? Thanks in advance for your opinions Rob - --- Visit our Internet site at http://www.reuters.com Any views expressed in this message are those of the individual sender, except where the sender specifically states them to be the views of Reuters Ltd. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: FCC Part15
It is not in the Part 15 rules. It is located in a public notice that is several years old now. Best bet is to contact the FCC OET in Columbia. John Shinn, P.E. -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of John Juhasz Sent: Friday, August 16, 2002 11:19 AM To: 'emc-p...@ieee.org' Subject: FCC Part15 Hi all, I am trying to find the section in FCC Part 15 that allows for the use of alternate testing (such as EN 55022 - Part 15 refers to CISPR 22). I've read it , but I can't seem to find the appropriate section. Do any of you know which section in Part 15 has this? Thanks. John A. Juhasz GE Interlogix Fiber Options Div. Bohemia, NY --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Noise Levels for Household Appliances / Medical Devices
Are you talking electrical (EMC) noise or Acoustic? John Shinn -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Peter Merguerian Sent: Wednesday, August 14, 2002 3:09 AM To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: Noise Levels for Household Appliances / Medical Devices Dear All, Any recommended European or North American noise levels for household appliances such as massagers? What are the applicable standards? Any recommended European or North American noise levels for medical equipment, such as massagers used by professionals in a therapy center? What are the applicable standards? This e-mail message may contain privileged or confidential information. If you are not the intended recipient, you may not disclose, use, disseminate, distribute, copy or rely upon this message or attachment in any way. If you received this e-mail message in error, please return by forwarding the message and its attachments to the sender. PETER S. MERGUERIAN Technical Director I.T.L. (Product Testing) Ltd. 26 Hacharoshet St., POB 211 Or Yehuda 60251, Israel Tel: + 972-(0)3-5339022 Fax: + 972-(0)3-5339019 Mobile: + 972-(0)54-838175 http://www.itl.co.il http://www.i-spec.com --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: FCC and Professional Scanner : Verification or certification
Obviously there is considerable disagreement between myself and what appears to be the rest of the group. The positions regarding the consideration of the scanner as a Class A device were well thought out. I will bow to the consenses of the group However, even if the scanner were intended only for an Industrial / commercial market, and it could meet the Class B limits, wouldn't it be better to issue a DoC in order to open up more markets for the device? John -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Gary McInturff Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 6:54 PM To: john.sh...@sanmina-sci.com; Pierre SELVA; Forum Safety-emc Subject: RE: FCC and Professional Scanner : Verification or certification John, obviously I disagree. The definitions I provided from part 15 describe a PC. Outside of that definition it might not be a PC. While a scanner doesn't really look or act like a PC, one can apply those same definitions to analyze whether or not any digital device, in this case a scanner, is likely to be class A or Class B. But I don't believe that to really be the point anyway. His question is a little more subtle and one has to find out first, where the scanner can be used. If his is a class A system used in a class A environment, his equipment is the controlling device - not the PC. He is not obligated to become class B because he uses a device that is class B in a commercial environment. The fact that outside of his application the PC might be used in a residential area is of little concern to him. He isn't using or supporting the PC in all of its possible uses. He is supporting the use of the PC only as it applies to the use of his equipment when developing and dig! itizing photographs. The determination lies in his scanner. Again a Class A device in a Class A environment can be interconnected with either a Class A device or A class B device. The class B device by definition meets the Class A requirements. Look at Ethernet routers and switches. They sit only in commercial locations, can cost many thousands to hundreds of thousands of dollars, aren't advertised in consumer magazines, nor are they sold in consumer outlets. They do have ports that could be connected to a PC but they are clearly class A devices. The fact that a class B computing device might be hooked up to it in its industrial location doesn't require the router to all of a sudden become a class B device - nor is it re-labeled a PC peripheral. Contrast that with a small Ethernet hub. They share a great deal with routers and switches. But because they sit in homes and/or industrial locations, they only cost some tens of dollars, are sold in consumer magazines and stores, basically all the definitions of a PC as described earlier, and as such are likely to be found in both commercial and residential areas. So they are required to be class B. They also have a port for one or more PC's. But its not the fact that a PC can be hooked up that makes the determination its the usage of the device that is being tested - in this case the hub. So we go back to, I believe, even if it were to look like a PC its either a PC or not a PC depending on how it meets the definitions I provided earlier. A very similar argument can be made for Pierre's scanner. Is it cheap, is it sold to consumers through magazines, and is it sold in consumer outlets. If not it simply is a digital device used in a commercial environment. Gary -Original Message- From: John Shinn [mailto:john.sh...@sanmina-sci.com] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 5:02 PM To: Gary McInturff; 'Pierre SELVA'; 'Forum Safety-emc' Subject: RE: FCC and Professional Scanner : Verification or certification Lets get this straight. The unit connects to a PC with a SCSI port (Do I read Apple?). He is not questioning the the certification status of the PC. Apparently the computer is not of his design or manufacture. He simply connects to a PC. Unless he specifies that the unit is to be only connected to a host Personnal Computer that is for industrial / commercial use and has a SCSI port (is there such a thing?), the scanner will take on the characteristics of its host (a Personnal Computer - not just a Computer). Again, the normal run of the mill PCs are Class B. He needs to simply look at the host PC and determine the its class by looking at the label (that is assuming that the required label is there). If the label says Class B, the scanner and host must meet Class B. He then has to decide whether to go the certification route via a TCB (time and money) or DoC (no money, no time). If he wants to OEM a main-frame, that is another story for another day. 'Nuff said, end of story. John Shinn, P.E. -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Gary McInturff Sent
RE: FCC and Professional Scanner : Verification or certification
Lets get this straight. The unit connects to a PC with a SCSI port (Do I read Apple?). He is not questioning the the certification status of the PC. Apparently the computer is not of his design or manufacture. He simply connects to a PC. Unless he specifies that the unit is to be only connected to a host Personnal Computer that is for industrial / commercial use and has a SCSI port (is there such a thing?), the scanner will take on the characteristics of its host (a Personnal Computer - not just a Computer). Again, the normal run of the mill PCs are Class B. He needs to simply look at the host PC and determine the its class by looking at the label (that is assuming that the required label is there). If the label says Class B, the scanner and host must meet Class B. He then has to decide whether to go the certification route via a TCB (time and money) or DoC (no money, no time). If he wants to OEM a main-frame, that is another story for another day. 'Nuff said, end of story. John Shinn, P.E. -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Gary McInturff Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 1:51 PM To: Pierre SELVA; Forum Safety-emc Subject: RE: FCC and Professional Scanner : Verification or certification Pierre, Another way to analyze the problem is the intended use, cost, and how you advertise the product. Below is a small excerpt from the FCC part 15 rules defining a computer. Such computers are considered Class B digital devices. Computers which use a standard TV receiver as a display device or meet all of the following conditions are considered examples of personal computers: (1) Marketed through a retail outlet or direct mail order catalog. (2) Notices of sale or advertisements are distributed or directed to the general public or hobbyist users rather than restricted to commercial users. (3) Operates on a battery or 120 volt electric al supply. Basically the converse of the above takes you out of the computer category. (1) Not sold in retail outlets - The product is bought directly from you or through business distributors that deal with business rather than consumers. So a national distributor that a professional photographer would use - sorry I can't think of a French distributor (2) You advertise in Business magazines not consumer electronic magazines etc. (3) This one is no help because commercial equipment often runs on 120. (4) Don't know exactly where its at, but there is also a clause that mentions the price being such that it is unlikely that a consumer would purchase the thing, even if they were aware. If your equipment meets all of those categories then you can justify Verification. The fact that an actual computer is attached to the device is a bit of a red herring. It might be a DoC certified device and class B, and even though it is necessary to have one to operate the scanner its emission classification doesn't define your product. You can always use a class B device on a Class A system, just not the other way around. My opinion anyway. Gary -Original Message- From: Pierre SELVA [mailto:e.l...@wanadoo.fr] Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 9:49 AM To: Forum Safety-emc Subject: FCC and Professional Scanner : Verification or certification Hello all, I have to clarify a point to classify a product regarding FCC part 15 rules. The product is a scanner used in the photographic world. It scans negatives films and converts it to digital files. This scanner can be used as a stand alone one, or included in a bigger machine which makes the complete process to develop photographies. The scanner needs a personal computer to run thru a SCSI port. In which category falls this product : Peripheral of a PC, or other digital device ? The choice is fundamental to determine the authorization process : DofC/Certification or Verification. Thanks for your help, Best regards, Pierre eLABs (emc, safety, radio - product regulations) Pierre SELVA 18 Rue Marceau Leyssieux 38400 SAINT MARTIN D'HERES - FRANCE Phone : 33 (0)6 76 63 02 58 Fax : 33 (0)6 61 37 87 48 e-mail : e.l...@wanadoo.fr == --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived
RE: FCC and Professional Scanner : Verification or certification
If it attached to a PC, it is a PC Peripheral and will need to meet the requirements of a PC. It will need to be tested as part of a system which includes the Host. a PC, by definition, is a Class B device and can be either Certified, or preferrably, use a DoC. Regards, John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab Operations Sanmina-SCI -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Pierre SELVA Sent: Friday, July 26, 2002 9:49 AM To: Forum Safety-emc Subject: FCC and Professional Scanner : Verification or certification Hello all, I have to clarify a point to classify a product regarding FCC part 15 rules. The product is a scanner used in the photographic world. It scans negatives films and converts it to digital files. This scanner can be used as a stand alone one, or included in a bigger machine which makes the complete process to develop photographies. The scanner needs a personal computer to run thru a SCSI port. In which category falls this product : Peripheral of a PC, or other digital device ? The choice is fundamental to determine the authorization process : DofC/Certification or Verification. Thanks for your help, Best regards, Pierre eLABs (emc, safety, radio - product regulations) Pierre SELVA 18 Rue Marceau Leyssieux 38400 SAINT MARTIN D'HERES - FRANCE Phone : 33 (0)6 76 63 02 58 Fax : 33 (0)6 61 37 87 48 e-mail : e.l...@wanadoo.fr == --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?
RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights?However, the other problem may be that PC's, in general, are DEFINED as a Class B device unless the Manufacturer can show reason otherwise. Those reasons include that the product is NOT sold to the general public such as in mom pop electronics outlet. Thus, the product should have been considered as a Class B device by the manufacturer, tested accordingly, and issued the Declaration of Conformity (DoC). (The TCB route to certification is also available). If the computer has been assembled from certified components, then he/she may issue a DoC based upon the certified components and mark the product accordingly. Without the appropriate FCC Certification mark (or DoC mark), the product would be considered non-compliant and is on the market illegally. This is also a major issue for people like us (on this list) that spend the money to do things correctly and then have to compete with those that do not. my 2-bits worth. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab Operations Sanmina-SCI -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of George Stults Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 11:38 AM To: 'Wagner, John P (John)'; michael.sundst...@nokia.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Okay then, I think I see the point. Supposing for the moment that an FCC DoC does exist for the modified case, and that it self declares Class A, and they have test results to back it up, Then, the 'legal' problem would lie with the assertion that its being sold at retail outlets for home use. Except of course the manufacturer would say that its not being sold for that purpose, and the retail outlet doesn't know the difference. Ignorance is bli$$. George Stults -Original Message- From: Wagner, John P (John) [mailto:johnwag...@avaya.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 10:52 AM To: michael.sundst...@nokia.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; George Stults Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? Importance: High The current FCC rules are pretty clear. For systems assembled from components, the system considered compliant if assembled from compliant components; namely, enclosures, motherboards, power supplies. The peripheral rules also apply. So, if this case or enclosure has been tested and shown to be compliant when used as a component for a system, then all is ok. To be legal, the case should have an FCC DoC. John P. Wagner Regulatory Compliance Mandatory Standards AVAYA Strategic Standards. 1300 W. 120th Ave, Room B3-D16 Westminster, CO 80234-2726 Phone/Fax: (303) 538-4241 johnwag...@avaya.com -- From: George Stults[SMTP:george.stu...@watchguard.com] Reply To: George Stults Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 9:56 AM To: 'michael.sundst...@nokia.com'; 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' Subject:Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? The cases are being sold as components, although I am sure that any of the stores I visited would sell me an assembled system with the modified plastic-window-style-cases. There is no understanding of emission requirements at the level of the retail outlet. Surely this situation has come up before, where there were easily assembled systems from commercially available components sold for the purpose, that would nevertheless be non-compliant with a high degree of probability. How was it handled in the past? What reasoning can be applied to justify the proposition that the plastic-window-style-cases cannot be legally sold? George Stults -Original Message- From: michael.sundst...@nokia.com [mailto:michael.sundst...@nokia.com] Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 5:58 AM To: jklin...@celectronics.com; George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? If they are selling these PC's out of a store, how can they be homebuilt? Michael Sundstrom NOKIA TCC Dallas / EMC ofc: (972) 374-1462 cell: (817) 917-5021 amateur call: KB5UKT -Original Message- From: ext Jeff Klinger [mailto:jklin...@celectronics.com] Sent: Friday, July 12, 2002 5:39 PM To: George Stults; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Open chassis computers for sale - with neon lights? George, The method for testing motherboards is intended to be combined with the DoC method of declaring compliance based on individual testing of the components that comprise the full computer system, i.e. Assembled from tested components. The final computer system is still required to meet the FCC Class B limit
RE: Non-metallic tables.
Try Rubbermaid 5M715 (beige) or 5M716 (gray). Good for 400 lbs. 30 inches(0.76 meter) high. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab Operations, Sanmina-SCI -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Gary McInturff Sent: Monday, July 01, 2002 10:06 AM To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: Non-metallic tables. I am looking for a non-metallic table I can put equipment on for pre-pre-compliance checks. Was thinking of Rubbermaid Corp or the likes, but first blush says they don't have anything sufficiently close. Anybody our there buy rather than make the chamber test tables? Gary --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list attachment: winmail.dat
RE: Accreditation - testing ourselves
Yes, it does make sense. I am speaking from the position of an Accredited Laboratory. When a lab is accredited, it will receive a certificate of accreditation which states that it is accredited to ISO 17025 (and the accrediting body) and a Scope of Accreditation. The Scope of Accreditation will list those acitivites (or standards) that the lab is may perform under the accreditation. During the accreditation process, the lab personnel are evaluated in their knowledge and ability to perform those tests. The Accredited lab is responsible for ascertaining that the test were performed correctly and according to the documented procedure. Thus, in order to assure that the test was performed correctly, the lab will require that the lab personnel perform the test. However, the lab may perform other tests outside of their scope. In doing so, they are not allowed to use the logo of the accrediting body, or indicate that the test report is generated by an accredcited laboratory. If you want to do an Engineering Evaluation and want data only, then it would probably be ok if you ran the test, but that would depend upon the policy of the Lab. There is no requirement that they have to allow you to use their equipment for performing the test. If you want a Final Test Report with all of the applicable accreditations, then you would want the lab's personnel to perform the test. The result would be a test report that would be recognized by many regulatory agencies, depending upon the lab's accreditation and MRA status. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab Operations Sanmina-SCI Homologation Services -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of am...@westin-emission.no Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 5:25 AM To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: Accreditation - testing ourselves Hi all, An EMC test lab is accredited according to ISO/IEC 17025. They are also accredited for many tests as the IEC61000-4-series, EN55022 and many other. We have previously done some EMC pre-testing in this lab and we have operated the test equipment ourselves. Now, they won't let us do that with reference to their accreditation status. The test lab personnel have to operate the test equipment. Does it make sense, is there any restriction in the accreditation ? We have always made a clear cut between pre-testing and accredited testing. Best regards Amund Westin --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Stun Guns on Aircraft.
Actually, I understand that those devices that shoot darts are called Tasers, while stun guns have two metallic probes with about 20 kV across them when the trigger is pushed. Typically they are used in direct contact with the aggressor, so there would not be any live wires or darts bouncing around inside of the aircraft. I agree with Scott in terms of holes in the aircraft skin. There presently is a controlled leak, usually in the rear of the aircraft, which controls the pressure inside. If there were some bullet holes in the skin, the controlled leak would just adjust to leak less. However, a window would be another story, but it would not be as dramatic as shown in most movies. The windows are plastic so probably would not completely blow out, but it would make a lot of noise. John Shinn, P.E. (also a pilot) -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of sco...@world.std.com Sent: Friday, May 03, 2002 1:56 PM To: Gregg Kervill Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Stun Guns on Aircraft. Gregg, I believe the type of device they are talking about is the kind that shoots a projectile with two electrodes that penetrate the skin. Thin wires remain attached to the gun and deliver shock pulses to the cockpit invader. I think that aircraft instrumentation has enough immunity to withstand emissions from the wires. The main trouble with this gadget (most of them are one shot deals) is if the bad guy was smart enough to bring friends. As for bullets, aircraft pressurization systems are designed with excess capacity. Even a couple of dozen bullet holes are very minor leaks for such a system. There would be a problem if a bullet damaged something but large aircraft have redundant systems for almost everything. Also, they would almost certainly only use pre- fragmented safety rounds. These are made up of very small birdshot stuck together and are designed to disintegrate on impact. I think by now it should be obvious which one I would want the pilot to have if I were one of the passengers. Scott Lacey On 3 May 2002 at 12:38, Gregg Kervill wrote: There have been several reports here (in the US) that airlines are placing guns or stun-guns on aircraft. I understand the risk of a bullet - I understand that the risk can be reduced by using a flat, disc-shaped, rubber projectile. BUT, the though of ANYONE discharging a stun gun on a flight deck full of mission critical (and sometimes not well buffered) electronics scares me more that the though of a terrorist. Please can someone tell me that I should not worry - or to stop flying. Best regards Gregg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@attbi.com For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc
RE: Phase loss
Delta or WYE 3-phase circuit? John Shinn, P.E. -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Arno van Kesteren Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 12:31 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Phase loss Dear All, When a circuit breaker trips on excessive ground current (250 A) and while measuring that one of the 3 phases doesn't carry any current (while the others have the same current as the protective ground) what could be the problem ? I was thinking of a sudden phase loss and would like to know how that could happen without any loose connections in the system. The system itself contains a 3-phase rectifier. Greetings, Arno van Kesteren --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Part 15 section numbering
The odd numbering is not unique to Part 15. All of 47 CFR chapters has their sub-parts originally designated with an odd number. The even numbers, where they exist, are the result of additions and it was necessary to put them in between the odd sub-parts. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab Operations, Sanmina-Sci -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of John Juhasz Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 10:27 AM To: 'emc-p...@ieee.org' Subject: FW: Part 15 section numbering All, I contacted the FCC with regard to Part 15 and only the odd numbered sections. Apparently that's the way it was numbered. Here's the response from FCC. GE Interlogix John A. Juhasz Product Qualification Compliance Engr. Fiber Options Div. 80 Orville Dr. Suite 102, Bohemia, NY 11716 631-419-2324, Fax: 631-567-8322 -Original Message- From: Tom D. Shirley [mailto:tshir...@fcc.gov] Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2002 1:13 PM To: jjuh...@fiberoptions.com Subject: Part 15 section numbering Sir, The Part 15 numbering on that web site reflects the numbering in my current, printed version of Part 15. That is the section numbers are 15.1, 15.3, 15.5, 15.7, etc., and doesn't present an even number until it gets to 15.32. It then reverts to odd numbers pretty much throughout, except for an even number here and there, such as 15.204 and again at 15.214. I don't know why it's numbered this way, but nothing is 'missing' from the online version. Y'know, it's odd (sorry) but I never noticed this numbering configuration before you pointed it out. Best regards Tom --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: FCC Part 68 and prototypes
FCC Part 68 and prototypesYes: There is a process, interestingly enough, call Field Trials. However, it is somewhat Fuzzy since the outsourcing of the Part 68 process by the FCC. Bellcore, now Telecordia, was the holder of the procedure. What you will need to do is to contact the correct representative for the Telco to whose lines you wish to attach your modem. You will need to be able to show that the product has been sucessfully tested and complies with the FCC Part 68 Requirements (which includes TIA/EIA IS 968). You will need to complete a several page document and have signed by an officer of the company. You will also need to have the name of the responsible person , and their phone number, who will monitor the units during the tests. The telco will give you a number (similar to an (old) FCC Part 68 Registration number) which is to be located on the product (paper label with number typed on it). A few other minor items you will become aware of during time you are putting this together. The maximum number of units is limited to 12. However, if the product does not comply with the requirements of Part 68, no Telco will allow you to attach. So, as an alternative, make sure the products comply, generate a SDoC (Suppliers Declaration of Conformity) per TIA/EIA TSB-129, submit the required copy, information and $300 to ACTA and you can attach. If you need more information, please send me a private e-mail. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab. Operations Sanmina-SCI -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Georgerian, Richard Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2002 12:13 PM To: IEEE emc-pstc Subject: FCC Part 68 and prototypes Hello All, So far we have only tested our products to Part 68 and have not, until now, been requested to connect prototype telecom devices to the network. Is there a process that the FCC has for such prototypes for a limited amount of time and small number of units (less than 10), before the device is fully certified? The prototype model has either been certified by an earlier older model but is now being upgraded or the prototypes have not been certified yet, but require some field trials at a customer site for evaluation. Thanks in-advance. Richard Georgerian Compliance Engineer Carrier Access Corporation 5395 Pearl Parkway Boulder, CO 80301 USA Tele: 303-218-5748 Fax: 303-218-5503 mailto:rgeorger...@carrieraccess.com * This e-mail transmission, and any documents, files, or previous e-mail messages attached to it may contain information that is confidential or legally privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, or a person responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that you must not read this transmission and that any disclosure, copying, printing, distribution, or use of any of the information contained in or attached to this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please immediately notify the sender by telephone or return e-mail and delete the original transmission and its attachments without reading or saving them in any manner. Thank you. *
RE: anybody have a better link than this to the fcc rules - only shows the odd sections of part 15
The document, 47CFR Part 15, originally came in odd numbered sub-parts. As the document has evolved, there will be an occasionally even numbered sub-part. The link is good. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab. Operations Sanmina-SCI -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Gary McInturff Sent: Monday, March 18, 2002 8:32 AM To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) Subject: anybody have a better link than this to the fcc rules - only shows the odd sections of part 15 http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/waisidx_01/47cfr15_01.html --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list attachment: winmail.dat
RE: Pencil erasers for pre-EMI cleaning? (cleaning mating surface s, chassis, )
You are right, I was not yet awake. Sorry. -Original Message- From: Ron Pickard [mailto:rpick...@hypercom.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 7:21 AM To: john.sh...@sanmina-sci.com Cc: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Pencil erasers for pre-EMI cleaning? (cleaning mating surface s, chassis, ) Hi John, Actually, B-size is 11 x 17 inches. Best regards, Ron Pickard rpick...@hypercom.com john.shinn@sanmina-sci. comTo: j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Sent by: cc: owner-emc-pstc@majordomSubject: RE: Pencil erasers for pre-EMI cleaning? (cleaning mating o.ieee.org surface s, chassis, ) 03/04/02 05:17 PM Please respond to john.shinn Actually, US Legal size is 8-1/2 by 14 inches. 8-1/2 by 17 inches is B-size. John Shinn, P.E. -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 11:36 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Pencil erasers for pre-EMI cleaning? (cleaning mating surface s, chassis, ) I read in !emc-pstc that david_ster...@ademco.com wrote (in 2DF7C54A75B dd311b61700508b64231002c5a...@nyhqex1.ademcohq.com) about 'Pencil erasers for pre-EMI cleaning? (cleaning mating surface s, chassis, )', on Mon, 4 Mar 2002: It prints on legal (8-1/2 x 17) paper. That size is 'illegal' in Europe! (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: Pencil erasers for pre-EMI cleaning? (cleaning mating surface s, chassis, )
Actually, US Legal size is 8-1/2 by 14 inches. 8-1/2 by 17 inches is B-size. John Shinn, P.E. -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 11:36 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Pencil erasers for pre-EMI cleaning? (cleaning mating surface s, chassis, ) I read in !emc-pstc that david_ster...@ademco.com wrote (in 2DF7C54A75B dd311b61700508b64231002c5a...@nyhqex1.ademcohq.com) about 'Pencil erasers for pre-EMI cleaning? (cleaning mating surface s, chassis, )', on Mon, 4 Mar 2002: It prints on legal (8-1/2 x 17) paper. That size is 'illegal' in Europe! (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Interested in professional sound reinforcement and distribution? Then go to http://www.isce.org.uk PLEASE do NOT copy news posts to me by E-MAIL! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Ron Pickard: emc-p...@hypercom.com Dave Heald: davehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://ieeepstc.mindcruiser.com/ Click on browse and then emc-pstc mailing list
RE: radar
Interesting - What was intended to be a humorous remark actually received some serious response! John -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Veit, Andy Sent: Thursday, January 10, 2002 5:29 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: radar Why would someone want to take a car out of UK with the steering wheel on the wrong side? I can think of at least one good reason to take a RHD car out of the UK - its called the Lotus Super 7. There, its out in the open now. I am a British car nut. :) Rerards, Andrew Veit Systems Design Engineer MTS Systems Corp 1001 Sheldon Drive Cary, NC 27513 -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, January 09, 2002 3:35 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: radar I read in !emc-pstc that John Shinn john.sh...@sanmina.com wrote (in 001f01c1992f$09f5c960$0b3d1...@hadco.comsanmina.com) about 'radar', on Wed, 9 Jan 2002: Why would someone want to take a car out of UK with the steering wheel on the wrong side? There are actually more *countries* where you drive on the left. Not more RHD cars, though. (No, I don't have the list of RHD countries, but it's on the web somewhere - everything is!) Besides, it is *undeniable* that a British car has the steering wheel on the right side. -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Comparing EMI test results
Have the evaluation performed at both 3 meters and 10 meters. Should be interesting to see the results. John Shinn -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Rao, Praveen Sent: Sunday, January 06, 2002 7:14 PM To: Ken Javor; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Comparing EMI test results Thanks for the response. The purpose is to test both, the facility (semi-anechoic v/s OATS) and the quality of results. The comb generator is my first approach. A standard test sample(with cables) will follow. Any procedures, data, results, experience on this issue ? -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: Monday, 7 January 2002 13:47 To: Rao, Praveen; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Comparing EMI test results Whether a comb generator is a good artifact depends somewhat on what your purpose is. If your purpose is to check how well calibrated the site is I think a comb generator is an excellent artifact because it is physically small and should generate the same radiation pattern at all facilities. But if your purpose is to check the quality of the testing done at different facilities including how good the test personnel are, then I believe you need a device with attached cables, since maximizing emissions will then involve not only height searches, but also rotation of the turntable and movement of the attached cables. Maybe you can attach a cable or two to the rf jack that normally seats the stub. on 1/6/02 8:16 PM, Rao, Praveen at praveen@fujitsu.com.au wrote: I'm trying to setup a programme to compare test results (for Radiated Emissions) between test labs. The plan is to circulate a Artifact around the labs and compare the results. The test sites being compared are Semi-anechoic Chambers v/s OATS. The source used is a wideband RF comb generator. I would like to understand the concept fully before I initiate this programme. Is there any information readily available on this topic? Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks. Praveen --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: EMC-related safety issues
So where do I drill the hole in my fuel injection system? John -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Doug McKean Sent: Friday, January 04, 2002 2:37 PM To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues RE: EMC-related safety issuesKyle Ehler wrote: Another point of trivia is that a fresh oil change and new air filter prior to having your vehicle smog tested will improve the emissions results. At one time there was available OTC a fuel additive that one could deploy to further skew the results in your favor. I knew a guy who drilled a small hole in the side of his carborator, attatched a hose setup that you would use for an acquirium the other end of which was put into a water bottle. While the car was in idle, he'd adjust a valve on the hose to a slow drip of water into the carborator. This setup was on an old truck of his and he always got terrifically low emissions readings. - Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: EMC-related safety issues
Actually, if you consider that there are two issues here. First, the TV and Radio manufacturers are required to no longer have a wide-open front end as was prevalent quite a few years ago. This single action by the FCC improved the immunity (decreased the susceptability) to incidental RF. Secondly, by requiring the label to say must accept, eliminates a lot of complaints about LEGAL incidental as well as intentional radiators (you might also read that as easer to dismiss complaints). It was a start. John Shinn -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Doug McKean Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 2:36 PM To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues Rich Nute wrote: EMC? Ha! You raise a good point since the FCC legally can but hasn't implemented an American version of immunity standards. The words must accept on the FCC labels of your effected devices are evident of it. Maybe some day we will have do immunity testing. - Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: EMC-related safety issues
Re: EMC-related safety issuesIn Ken's second scenario, Chrysler Corp. had to fix the Dodge/Plymoth min-van's rear door latch. I'm sure of the other two. However, note that it is not the US government that would be after the knife (actually a box cutter) manufacturer, but what we call on this side of the pond, ambulace chasers, also known as lawers. Now for my Lawyer Joke - There are two kinds of lawyers. Good ones and Bad ones. And, we do not need any more of either kind. John -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of James, Chris Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 9:06 AM To: 'Ken Javor'; 'acar...@uk.xyratex.com'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: EMC-related safety issues So why ain't the US government chasing the knife manufacturer of the knives used by the terrorists rather than Bin Laden I'm sorry but stories like the below make me despair at the way society is headed. If people want technology they will have to accept some of the pitfalls that come with it, within reason, else where will it end? -Original Message- From: Ken Javor [mailto:ken.ja...@emccompliance.com] Sent: 03 January 2002 17:00 To: James, Chris; 'acar...@uk.xyratex.com'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues I agree with what you say, but at least in this country the anti-business pendulum has swung farther than you imagine. A couple examples. Thurman Munson, a Yankee catcher in the '70s, was killed in his twin engine Cessna jet. He crashed short of a runway. His estate sued Cessna, not on the grounds that the jet was defective, but that Cessna had sold Munson more aircraft than he was capable of handling. Cessna demonstrated that it had sold Munson the model he wanted, but the plaintiff claimed that it was Cessna' duty to assess Munson's skills as a pilot and tell him, the customer, what aircraft they would sell him. I don't recall how the verdict was rendered, but I know Cessna paid something. Another case involved the death of a child in an automobile accident involving a minivan. The child was thrown from the vehicle, in part because the rear door sprang open on impact. Plaintiff claimed the door was poorly designed and that the child would have remained in the vehicle and maybe not been killed had the doors remained closed. Defendant pointed out that child was not restrained in vehicle, he was up and and about at the moment of impact. Documentation supplied with vehicle clearly states all passengers should wear restraining belts. Plaintiff countered that defendant should have known that if they built a vehicle as large as a minivan that kids would be up and about and vehicle should have been designed with that in mind. Again do not recall verdict but I am sure plaintiff did not walk away empty-handed. Agreed that a manufacturer is responsible for the safety of a product put into normal use. That was established by case law as far back as the Babylonian Code of Hammurabi, wherein an architect who builds a house that collapses and kills the owner is liable to the same fate. But the manufacturer today labors under a presumption of evil: if he makes a profit from selling a product, he must have skimped somewhere, because profits are intrinsically evil. -- From: James, Chris c...@dolby.co.uk To: 'acar...@uk.xyratex.com' acar...@uk.xyratex.com, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: EMC-related safety issues Date: Thu, Jan 3, 2002, 8:25 AM Ken, I don't think anyone could disagree with your sentiments. The problem is attributing the level of liability between user and manufacturer. Car manufacturers sleep at night yet their products kill thousands each year, they design them to high standards yet by their use they still kill and maim. Do we hold them liable, no, in 99.9% of cases we don't. You slip down the stairs and break your leg, do you sue: a.. the caveman who invented the staircase? b.. your shoe manufacturer for using a shoe sole incompatible with the stair carpet? c.. the stair carpet manufacturer for using material incompatible with the shoe sole material? d.. the distiller for not putting a warning on the bottle of whisky you just drank It's reasonable responsibility/diligence that needs defining, not spurious emissions!! In addition the legal fraternity should have some standards imposed upon them to put an end to pure gold digging through litigation that seems to just escalate and to which we thus have to pander. If every foreseeable mis-use of every commodity sold was accounted for then no-one would sell anything. Chris __ Chris James Engineering Services Manager Dolby Laboratories, Inc. (UK) -Original Message- From:
RE: EMC-related safety issues
NO NO NO. Don't think about the plane. There will be more red tape than you want to think about, especially if it is bolted down (permanently installed). If not approved by the appropriate government agency (the FAA's FSDO - Flight Safety District Office), it could cause loss of airworthyness of the aircraft. Even more problems if you have to punch a hole in the skin. But, just from the paperwork issue, don't go there. John -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 8:12 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues I read in !emc-pstc that richwo...@tycoint.com wrote (in 846BF526A205F8 4BA2B6045BBF7E9A6ABC4FD5@flbocexu05) about 'EMC-related safety issues', on Thu, 3 Jan 2002: Ken, let me address the specific case you mentioned - the RF camera used for baby surveillance. In that particular application, surveillance for the protection of persons, more severe immunity requirements apply. Those requirements are either specified in EN 50130-4 or the particular ETSI product EMC standard. A manucturer should understand that the product may be used for protection of persons and apply the appropriate immunity requirements. Failure to do so, could create a liability issue. But that standard is INTENDED to apply to security and crowd-control cameras in stores, places of public assembly and sheltered accommodation. To 'read it on' to a simple camera used as a sophisticated baby alarm (on the grounds that it is a 'social alarm' application) is just the sort of man-trap that has many of us very concerned indeed. I'm going to get one of those cameras and mount it in my car. Now it has to meet automotive immunity requirements. Has the manufacturer thought of that? If the car camera works, I'll put two more in my boat and plane. No doubt that has been taken into account as well.(;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: EMC-related safety issues
John: Perhaps you should rephrase that! EMC IS a controversial issue. SAFETY IS a controversial issue. thus EMC and SAFETY ARE a controversial issue. Just my $0.02 worth. John -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2002 8:17 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: EMC-related safety issues I read in !emc-pstc that cherryclo...@aol.com wrote (in e5.11a0fabe.296 5d...@aol.com) about 'EMC-related safety issues', on Thu, 3 Jan 2002: Over the course of this correspondence (and in earlier postings to emc-pstc) you have cast doubt on the IEE's guide to EMC and Functional Safety without being in any way specific. No, Keith, as far as I know I have not done that. All my remarks were, or were intended to be, in reference to IEC work. But I agree that the matter has moved on. At least I hope that we can now agree that EMC and safety IS a controversial issue! -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Electric Shock and Water
Water, as is generally conductive, forms a better surface contact ( to you), reducing the surface resistivity (yours), thus allowing a greater flow of lethal current through the body (yours) from an energised electrical device. And when coupled with any, or all of the previous faults, you may kiss it good-by, or expect to spend a long vacation in the burn unit of your local hospital. John Shinn, P.E. -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of jasonxmall...@netscape.net Sent: Wednesday, January 02, 2002 2:57 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Electric Shock and Water My apologies if this is just too naive... I am trying to explain to a collegue why there are so many cautions against mixing water with electricity. He is not the type to accept common sense as an answer. This is what I have reasoned so far... MAL-OPERATION Water is generally conductive. If it enters the area of a chassis that houses control elements such as relays or switches, it can short circuit the control elements and cause the affected device to operate unexpectedly, and sometimes in unexpected ways. ENERGIZING SURFACES Water is generally conductive. If it enters a chassis containing hazardous voltages it is possible it may act as a conductor of the voltage to an otherwise un-energized conductive surface. If the conductive surface, for whatever reason, is itself not sufficiently grounded, it can carry hazardous voltage potentials. INCREASED LEAKAGE CURRENTS Water is generally conductive. If you are working on a chassis and accidentally touch an energized contact, you may not experience any shock because there is no current path between you and the voltage source supplying the contact. Let us assume the contact is energized by a local AC mains. There is always SOME leakage current possible from where you are standing back to a grounded point. Usually it is a very small leakage. However, if you are standing in water, the leakage current is likely to be much higher, and you may experience a serious electric shock from your accidental touching of a contact. AVALANCHE EFFECT Water is generally conductive. If it enters a chassis with high power electrical components, it can instigate an avalanche of failure that results in the release of a lot of energy. For example, the water can provide a short circuit between two potentials. As it carries current, the water may heat up quite rapidly, in doing so it creates steam. The effects of the heat and steam may then provide an even lower resistance path for additional current flow...and so an avalanche of conductivity (from less conductive to more conductive) is started... I welcome any comments and additional generic scenarios. Regards, Jason Mallory Product Safety Consultant. -- __ Your favorite stores, helpful shopping tools and great gift ideas. Experience the convenience of buying online with Shop@Netscape! http://shopnow.netscape.com/ Get your own FREE, personal Netscape Mail account today at http://webmail.netscape.com/ --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: RJ45 filtered connector
David: The pertinent and defining specification is contained in the FCC Rules, 47 FR Part 68. Everything else is a misuse of the original intent. An RJ11 is also defined there. ALL RJ designations are specified for use within the telephone industry. Is is too bad that the Networking groups chose to use the same designation for the same modular plug with different wiring. That is the same as calling all DB-25 connectors an RS-232 connector, even if used for a different application. John -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of david_ster...@ademco.com Sent: Wednesday, December 26, 2001 9:12 AM To: john.sh...@sanmina-sci.com; ows...@cisco.com; rhe...@vicon-cctv.com; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: RJ45 filtered connector John, The pertinent specification, ANSI/IEEE 802.3 (a.k.a. ISO/IEC8802.3), describes the Ethernet physical layer plug/jack as an RJ-45. ArcNet twisted pair was RJ-11. If you purchase jacks that include internal filters, be sure the filters are designed for Ethernet/F-E (10BaseT 100BaseTX). Some ferrite filters are designed to suppress digital noise in voice telephone lines. These ferrites can cause 'back pressure' on the digital signal, resulting in cable-length sensitivity; i.e. the impedance curve no longer meets 802.3. You can live with cable-length sensitivity on emissions (to 'isolate' the EUT), but expect diminished RF immunity with certain cable lengths when filters are inserted in the T-P line. Ethernet components are rigorously tested for 802.3 compliance (waveforms, jitter, SQE, bit-error rate) and for compatibility with components from other manufacturers. These compatibility-suite tests are performed without any additional T-P line filters. Any altered interface is your responsibility; results may or may not represent real world installations. David -Original Message- From: John Shinn [mailto:john.sh...@sanmina-sci.com] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 6:10 PM To: 'Bill Owsley'; 'John Shinn'; 'Reginald Henry'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: RJ45 filtered connector Acutally, the term RJ is used by the FCC for designating connectors that are part of the registration (now approval) process. So why would you want to call a ethernet connector by a designation used by the telephone industry? I am not going to police the use of the term, but I wanted to put that information out to everyone. Regards, John Shinn -Original Message- From: Bill Owsley [mailto:ows...@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 2:32 PM To: John Shinn; 'Reginald Henry'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: RJ45 filtered connector so if we called it an RJ-48C, would that be better ?? At 04:56 PM 12/20/2001 , John Shinn wrote: Although it may suprise some, and I may get flak, but an RJ45 connector is an specific configuration used exclusively for a programmable data connection. It has a specific wiring configuration. The RJ stands for Registered Jack. This is an FCC designation of that specific configuration. There is nothing against using an 8-pin modular plug/jack for 10Base-Tor 100Base-T, or even microphone inputs to my Ham radio, but do not call it a RJ45. Now, yes, there are several vendors that produce shielded and filtered 8-pin modular jacks. I remember using them and working with several vendors a few years ago, but I would suggest you look at the website or catalogs of the major connector suppliers. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab. Operations. Sanmina-SCI -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Reginald Henry Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:51 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE:RJ45 filtered connector To All, Can anyone out there tell me where I would be able to purchase a fully shielded and filter RJ45 connector that is Bulkhead mountable. The RJ45 must be able to handle data rates from 10Base T to 100Base T I will be performing CE testing in the chamber so it must be bulkhead mountable ! Thanks and Happy Holidays to YOU ALL ! Reg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators
RE: RJ45 filtered connector
Acutally, the term RJ is used by the FCC for designating connectors that are part of the registration (now approval) process. So why would you want to call a ethernet connector by a designation used by the telephone industry? I am not going to police the use of the term, but I wanted to put that information out to everyone. Regards, John Shinn -Original Message- From: Bill Owsley [mailto:ows...@cisco.com] Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 2:32 PM To: John Shinn; 'Reginald Henry'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: RJ45 filtered connector so if we called it an RJ-48C, would that be better ?? At 04:56 PM 12/20/2001 , John Shinn wrote: Although it may suprise some, and I may get flak, but an RJ45 connector is an specific configuration used exclusively for a programmable data connection. It has a specific wiring configuration. The RJ stands for Registered Jack. This is an FCC designation of that specific configuration. There is nothing against using an 8-pin modular plug/jack for 10Base-Tor 100Base-T, or even microphone inputs to my Ham radio, but do not call it a RJ45. Now, yes, there are several vendors that produce shielded and filtered 8-pin modular jacks. I remember using them and working with several vendors a few years ago, but I would suggest you look at the website or catalogs of the major connector suppliers. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab. Operations. Sanmina-SCI -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Reginald Henry Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:51 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE:RJ45 filtered connector To All, Can anyone out there tell me where I would be able to purchase a fully shielded and filter RJ45 connector that is Bulkhead mountable. The RJ45 must be able to handle data rates from 10Base T to 100Base T I will be performing CE testing in the chamber so it must be bulkhead mountable ! Thanks and Happy Holidays to YOU ALL ! Reg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. Bill Owsley, ows...@cisco.com 919) 392-8341 Compliance Engineer Cisco Systems 7025 Kit Creek Road POB 14987 RTP. NC. 27709
RE: EMI guard bands
I beleive his name is Dr. Ralph Showers. A very nice fellow. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab. Operations Sanmina-SCI -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Doug McKean Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:57 AM To: EMC-PSTC Discussion Group Subject: Re: EMI guard bands Historical bit of news ... I asked a similar question a couple of years ago here and was referred to a gentleman who was in the writing of the original FCC limits. Can't remember the man's name but he's a professor at Univ. Penn. if I remember correctly. Anywho, the answer I got back from him was that the limits were empirically derived in reference to interfering with television signals. So, the worst case (which turned out to be Class B) was a tv back to back across a wall from another device in an apartment complex. Regards, Doug McKean --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: RJ45 filtered connector
Although it may suprise some, and I may get flak, but an RJ45 connector is an specific configuration used exclusively for a programmable data connection. It has a specific wiring configuration. The RJ stands for Registered Jack. This is an FCC designation of that specific configuration. There is nothing against using an 8-pin modular plug/jack for 10Base-Tor 100Base-T, or even microphone inputs to my Ham radio, but do not call it a RJ45. Now, yes, there are several vendors that produce shielded and filtered 8-pin modular jacks. I remember using them and working with several vendors a few years ago, but I would suggest you look at the website or catalogs of the major connector suppliers. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab. Operations. Sanmina-SCI -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Reginald Henry Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2001 10:51 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE:RJ45 filtered connector To All, Can anyone out there tell me where I would be able to purchase a fully shielded and filter RJ45 connector that is Bulkhead mountable. The RJ45 must be able to handle data rates from 10Base T to 100Base T I will be performing CE testing in the chamber so it must be bulkhead mountable ! Thanks and Happy Holidays to YOU ALL ! Reg --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: 2 Phases in North America
This whole issue boils down to semantics and how we count and use numbers. The first issue is what is a harmonic. A harmonic is a multiple of the fundamental. This can be seen when we look at the Fourier series: V(t) = a(0) + a(1)sin(wt) + a(2)sin(wt) + a(3)sin(wt) + ... where a(n) is the magnitude of the n-th term in the series and w is angular frequency (radians/sec) Then the 0-th term would represent any DC component present, the 1-th (or 1-st) would represent the fundamental, and the 2-th (or 2-nd) would represent 2 times the fundamental, or the second harmonic, etc. If we refer back to the series, and refer to the n-th term, we would all be on the same page (and harmonic). John Shinn, P.E. -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of lfresea...@aol.com Sent: Monday, December 17, 2001 7:52 AM To: mhopk...@thermokeytek.com; bogda...@pacbell.net; cortland.richm...@alcatel.com Cc: r...@canoga.com; john...@itesafety.com; bar...@melbpc.org.au; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: 2 Phases in North America Mike, I don't go with you on this one... 0 implies nothing ( prehaps 0 ac ) ... therefore the 0th harmonic is dc??? if a squarewave is made up of odd harmonics, we would have to rethink that, correct? Derek. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: physics behind EMI powerline filter
Actually, that is referred to as the Ye Olde Balloon Theory. You push one bulge in and another pops out somewhere else. I am quite sure Kent used and uses this as an example when explaining EMI. John Shinn, P.E. -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of mike harris Sent: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 6:34 AM To: Joan Vicent Castell; Muriel Bittencourt de Liz Cc: EMC-PSTC List Subject: Re: physics behind EMI powerline filter Hi All, I recall Kent Chesley (he can see EMC) saying that controlling emissions is like squeezing a balloon - you may stop it here, but it may pop out over there. Mike Harris/Teccom -Original Message- From: Joan Vicent Castell cast...@tsc.upc.es To: Muriel Bittencourt de Liz mur...@eel.ufsc.br Cc: EMC-PSTC List emc-p...@ieee.org List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: Tuesday, December 04, 2001 4:55 AM Subject: Re: physics behind EMI powerline filter Hello Muriel, If you add a reactive filter in a line what you conceptualy do is a short circuit (if paralel capacitor) or an open circuit (if serial inductor) at certain frequencys (the frequencys you want to regect). This transforms the line in a sort of dipole (if open) or loop (if short) that can radiate the energy of the interference. That sort of antenna will be far in general from being adapted to the interference generator so you will have reflections as well. So I thing you are right, a filter can increase radiation and can increase internal noise. Solutions: 1_ Disipative filters (with ferrites) are not reactive but resistive at the frequency of the interference so you can minimize reflections and antena behave. 2_ Mounting the filter in a way that minimizes the lengh of cables carrying interference. But, ... The filters regect between 100kHz to 30MHz and no more (the ones I've seen) and the radiations are measured between 30MHz and 1GHz. So whith filter or without the radiations of interest (the ones that can make you fail the test) are the same. I'm talking theory and I know real live have surprises. If someone out there have had an experience of increasing radiation when adding a filter I'm sure will say something. And a little reflexion to think over: You can have a 10.000 V generator. No energy will flow out if you let it open circuit. Can't you apply the same concept to the energy of the interference? Regards, Joan Castell UPC University Catalunya. En/Na Muriel Bittencourt de Liz ha escrit: Hello Group, I have a long-time question, concerning the energy issues in a EMI powerline filter. I'll put a case, and ask the question after. This is the case: - When trying to minimize the conducted emissions from a electrical equipment / circuit, one of the things to do is to put a EMI filter at the power entrance. This filter can be from a manufacturer (ready filter) or you can make one (with common mode inductors, capacitors, inductors). This are the questions (they arearelated, i.e., complete each other): - What, physically speaking, happens to the EMI energy that leaves the equipment when I add a filter??? When there is no filter, I understand that the energy goes to the mains?? Does the filter reflect the EMI energy, keeping it arrested inside the equipment? - Thinking under the light of the principle of energy conservation, what happens to the EMI energy when I add a filter?? It cannot be lost... - ... And, supposing that the energy keeps arrested inside the equipment, isn't it worse for radiated emissions?? i.e., it can increase the level of radiated emissions?? Thanks in advance for your attention. Regards, Muriel Bittencourt de Liz Ph.D. Student Interest Areas: EMC for power electronics, RF measures, EM interference Federal University at Santa Catarina State Florianópolis, Santa Catarina, Brazil --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org
RE: Revised EMC standards and CE Declarations.
Your'e close. It is slightly larger than an violin and tuned 1/5 octave lower. -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of don_macart...@selinc.com Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 10:23 AM To: Pettit, Ghery Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Revised EMC standards and CE Declarations. Tuned differently? Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com on 11/29/2001 08:34:10 AM Please respond to Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com To: Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com, 'John Woodgate' j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk, 'emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org' emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org cc:(bcc: Don MacArthur/SEL) Subject: RE: Revised EMC standards and CE Declarations. Oh, and as long as we're picking on instruments in the orchestra... Do you know the difference between a Violin and a Viola? . . . . The Viola burns longer. ;) -Original Message- From: Pettit, Ghery Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2001 8:14 AM To: 'John Woodgate'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Revised EMC standards and CE Declarations. John, That quote refers to the Oboe, not the Bassoon. Ghery former Bassoonist ;) -Original Message- From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk] Sent: Wednesday, November 28, 2001 12:15 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Revised EMC standards and CE Declarations. I read in !emc-pstc that Pettit, Ghery ghery.pet...@intel.com wrote (in D9223EB959A5D511A98F00508B68C20C0226B685@ORSMSX108) about 'Revised EMC standards and CE Declarations.', on Wed, 28 Nov 2001: Hey, John. I resemble that remark. I'm not complaining, just pointing out a practical result of 89/336/EEC. ;) It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good. The Directive is thus unlike a bassoon, which is an ill woodwind that nobody blows good. (;-) -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk After swimming across the Hellespont, I felt like a Hero. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. This e-mail may contain SEL confidential information. The opinions expressed are not necessarily those of SEL. Any unauthorized disclosure, distribution or other use is prohibited. If you received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender, permanently delete it, and destroy any printout. Thank you. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your
RE: Pre-amps
Most use the HP (Agelent) 8447D pre-amp, or one of its family members. John -Original Message- From: marti...@appliedbiosystems.com [mailto:marti...@appliedbiosystems.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 4:25 PM To: john.sh...@sanmina.com Cc: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Pre-amps John and all, I am looking for a pre-amp to connect to our receiver/antenna for performing radiated emissions testing from 30-1000MHz. It has been recommended that the gain be approximately 20-22dB with low noise. I am guessing that most people on this forum that have EMC labs use a similar type pre-amp for their radiated emissions set up. Please excuse me for not providing this information in my initial question. As always, your responses are greatly appreciated. Joe Martin John Shinn john.shinn@saTo: marti...@appliedbiosystems.com, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org nmina.comcc: Subject: RE: Pre-amps 11/14/01 01:03 PM Please respond to john.shinn What is the frequency range needed. Is this Audio (10 Hz to 40 kHz)? RF (0.1 MHz to 1000 MHz)? Above 1 GHz? What transducer is feeding the input? Microphone, antenna, etc.? Output Z requirements? Do you need a specific gain, such as between 20 to 22 dB? or can you live with something greater such as 25 dB? Does it need to be adjustable? That information would be helpful. Regards, John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab Operations Sanmina -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of marti...@appliedbiosystems.com Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 10:15 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Pre-amps I am having some difficulties locating manufacturers that provide preamps with a 20-22dB gain. What manufacturer/model do you recommend? Why? Your assistance is appreciated. Regards Joe Martin Applied Biosystems --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Grounding Continuity Testers for UL 60950
Arc Welder works better. John -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Wednesday, November 14, 2001 10:25 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Grounding Continuity Testers for UL 60950 I read in !emc-pstc that Loop, Robert rl...@hnt.wylelabs.com wrote (in 81a0ea0cd2a23f439f43a64d24db7d8d08f...@hnt.wylelabs.com) about 'Grounding Continuity Testers for UL 60950', on Wed, 14 Nov 2001: Where in the world can we get a tester that would go up to 200 amps with a 12 V output? Vehicle starter/boost charger? -- Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only. http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Eat mink and be dreary! --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: 80/80 rule for euro compliance?
OK - Lets settle if for all of you young folk. The 80/80 rule originated in VDE 0871/6.78, section 4.1.4. Regards, John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab. Operations Sanmina -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Lou Guerin Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 8:45 AM To: 'Chris Maxwell'; David Heald; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: 80/80 rule for euro compliance? Chris, David, I just checked CISPR 22:1997 and this shows up in Section 7.1.2, they go into quite a bit of detail. Regards, Lou Guerin Littlefeet, Inc. www.littlefeet-inc.com -Original Message- From: Chris Maxwell [mailto:chris.maxw...@nettest.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2001 5:21 AM To: David Heald; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject:RE: 80/80 rule for euro compliance? I have seen this in Section 6 of EN 55011:1990 Section 8 of EN 55022:1995 I'm not sure if there are any plans to remove these references from newer versions of these standards. Best regards, Chris -Original Message- From: David Heald [SMTP:davehe...@mediaone.net] Sent: Monday, November 12, 2001 3:59 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: 80/80 rule for euro compliance? Greetings all, I remember hearing somewhere ( it seems that I found the answer somewhere but I can't remember) that there is a stipulation for European compliance that one should have 80% certainty that 80% of one's products are compliant. I have no idea where this idea originally came from or what standards it may apply to. Can anyone out there help me out? Dave --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
RE: Varient Model on Fcc.
You are almost there. The FCC ID belongs to the original manufacture (or grantee) known as A in this example. However, if someone wnats to privite label the product, and sell under vendor B's name, he/she may simply replace the name, model, etc. with their own words, but keep the FCC ID the same. Obviously updating and necessary customer information and instructions. This does leave a trail open when a vendor (B) does not want the purchaser (Customer) to know where the product originated. The knowledge customer can simply to to the FCC web site and determine the original grantee. If the vendor (B) does not wish this trail, then he/she will have to re-certify the product with the FCC (actually the TCB now in most cases) and have a get a new Grantee (AKA - applicant's) code if one does not already exist. Vendor B, with the approval of Grantee A, would then apply for a new Grant of Equipment Authorization which authorized the new FCC ID to be used on the model sold by Vendor B without a paper trail back to Grantee A. Hopefully that clears up any confusion. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Lab. Operations] Sanmina -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of wo...@sensormatic.com Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 9:58 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Varient Model on Fcc. It private branding of equipment A to become B is the issue, then there is no issue. The FCC ID belongs to the manufacturer of A and no change of the Grant is required. A new Grant would be required if the equipment were manufacturered by someone else. Richard Woods Sensormatic Electronics Tyco International -Original Message- From: John Juhasz [mailto:jjuh...@fiberoptions.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 12:35 PM To: 'Don Rhodes'; 'Jong Ho,Lee'; EMC-PSTC; EMC-PSTC Subject: RE: Varient Model on Fcc. I think what the question is here is not so much as 'Class' of emission levels I think he is refering to an OEM product. He is buying completed/fully-functional product A and will market it as product B. They are one in the same. His question is whether he can use (transfer) the FCC ID issued to product A on the marketed product B. I would like to know the same . . . John Juhasz Fiber Options Bohemia, NY -Original Message- From: Don Rhodes [mailto:don.rho...@infocus.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 06, 2001 11:23 AM To: 'Jong Ho,Lee'; EMC-PSTC; EMC-PSTC Subject: RE: Varient Model on Fcc. Tommy, I'm not exactly sure what you're asking. If you're asking if a Product which is labeled as Class A can be relabeled as a Class B product because they look the same, the answer is no. The product must be properly retested to assure its compliance with the Class B limits and then you must have a test report approved by the FCC. I have little doubt that if the two really were the same they would be labeled differently. Secondly, the FCC ID is a means of identifying the manufacturer. Therefore, unless your company is the holder of the FCC ID in question, I suggest you ask the printer manufacturer the question you're posing to the group. Respectfully, Don Rhodes EMC Engineering InFocus Corp. -Original Message- From: Jong Ho,Lee [mailto:upu...@samsung.com] Sent: Monday, November 05, 2001 8:50 PM To: EMC-PSTC; EMC-PSTC Subject: Varient Model on Fcc. Hi folk. A model has Fcc ID.It is Printer. Our buyer sale A model product to maket as B . There are not differnt between A and B. So I will use same Fcc ID on buyer model. Is it possible? If not,How can I do for get Fcc ID ? Best regards. Tommy --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri
RE: Have we lost something? was John Woodgate - RE: New EMC standards; now CISPR24/EN55024 query
Don't laugh!! those good ole days are still here. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Laboratory Operations Sanmina Homologation Services -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of John Juhasz Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 12:47 PM To: 'CE-test - Ing. Gert Gremmen - ce-marking and more...'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Have we lost something? was John Woodgate - RE: New EMC standards; now CISPR24/EN55024 query A . . . naiveté! I remember those days . . . Break it to him/her gently. John Juhasz Fiber Options Bohemia, NY -Original Message- From: CE-test - Ing. Gert Gremmen - ce-marking and more... [mailto:cet...@cetest.nl] Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 2:54 PM To: Ken Javor; Gregg Kervill; 'John Woodgate'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: RE: Have we lost something? was John Woodgate - RE: New EMC standards; now CISPR24/EN55024 query You are right ??? May I add the following quoted part of an email inquiry we received today from one reputable USA manufacturer I received today in my mail box : QUOTE I apologize for the delay in responding back to you, but my boss is informing me that we simply have to fill out the EC Type Declaration of Conformity and put the label on it. The system will then be ok to send out. No documentation is needed until the system itself is questioned by the authorities or the customer. If we do get questioned, what sort of documentation will I need. Especially if I have not got the system officially tested. END QUOTE ?? This is maybe just because their own philosophy about safety and spectrum protection exceeds the requirements of current standards .. Regards, Gert Gremmen, (Ing) ce-test, qualified testing === Web presence http://www.cetest.nl CE-shop http://www.cetest.nl/ce_shop.htm /-/ Compliance testing is our core business /-/ === -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of Ken Javor Sent: Thursday, November 01, 2001 6:05 PM To: Gregg Kervill; 'John Woodgate'; emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Re: Have we lost something? was John Woodgate - RE: New EMC standards; now CISPR24/EN55024 query My opinion only. There was a time when the reputation of a manufacturer or business in general was a very important part of the success of that company, and the honesty and integrity of that company, extending to high quality products, was the major part of a good reputation. That is part of a free-market economy. The rationale behind immunity standards (indeed, gov't enforced emission standards) is that the free-market place does not work and it is more efficient to impose external political control. This is untrue a priori but becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy: once you impose rigid governmental standards industry-wide, there is nothing to be gained by exceeding the standard performance and everything to be gained by finding ways to meet these limits in the most cost-effective way. In effect, industry-wide standards tend to make what might have been a unique product into a commodity to be purchased from the lowest priced vendor. In this way, gov't imposed standards are are an assault on the integrity of the marketplace and ultimately justify their imposition by destroying the integrity that previously existed, while destroying the perception of individual integrity on the part of the consumer. Here is a simple example that works in the USA. Sometime in the 1930s the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation was formed to insure bank deposits. Banks still like to boast about how strong they are, but for the average depositor the strength of the bank (the quality of their loans) is a moot point of little or no interest. If the bank goes bust, they are insured by the Fed. One bank looks pretty much like another to the average depositor. -- From: Gregg Kervill gkerv...@eu-link.com To: 'John Woodgate' j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk, emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org Subject: Have we lost something? was John Woodgate - RE: New EMC standards; now CISPR24/EN55024 query Date: Thu, Nov 1, 2001, 9:20 AM I agree whole heartedly with John's point.And while deliberation may not always be a bad thing, a lack of immunity in an industrial computer must always be a bad thing, and very possibly a BAD THING! -- However it is not so much a lack of standards but a lack of will and commitment to Quality designs that I believe is the problem. Back in the dark ages - long ago - one of my design jobs was with a company making industrial photo-electric controls. We checked out emissions on all of our products using a LW/MW/VHF radio and a TV. We checked out susceptibility by wiring a BIG contactor as a buzzer and put x-y caps
RE: one more thing about duty cycle...
Do not assume that a TCB is an extension of the FCC. Think of a TCB as a outsourced subcontractor reviewing reports. They are not allowed to interpret the Rules. If there is a question regarding interpretation, they, the TCB, will have recourse to the FCC. End of Story. John Shinn, P.E. Manager, Laboratory Operations Sanmina Homologation Services -Original Message- From: owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org [mailto:owner-emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org]On Behalf Of umbdenst...@sensormatic.com Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 2:08 PM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; stu...@timcoengr.com Subject: RE: one more thing about duty cycle... Who is the final authority? It would seem to me that this would be the one who wrote the rules -- the FCC. So if you are audited and questioned about the correct handling of factors, you merely produce the FCC generated instructions and show that you comply with the instructions. End of issue. After all, a TCB is an extension of the FCC. Best regards, Don Umbdenstock Sensormatic -- From: Stuart Lopata[SMTP:stu...@timcoengr.com] Reply To: Stuart Lopata Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2001 10:27 AM To: emc Subject: one more thing about duty cycle... I found the reference that used 20log() for the correction factors. TCB Training Unlicensed Devices Part I Richard Fabina This was given to us by the FCC for training our TCB people and part of a TCB training course at NIST. I agree that the correction factor should be 10log(), but would like to see a confirmation from the actual certifiers. So who is the final authority? Sincerely, Stuart Lopata --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server. --- This message is from the IEEE EMC Society Product Safety Technical Committee emc-pstc discussion list. Visit our web site at: http://www.ewh.ieee.org/soc/emcs/pstc/ To cancel your subscription, send mail to: majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc For help, send mail to the list administrators: Michael Garretson:pstc_ad...@garretson.org Dave Healddavehe...@mediaone.net For policy questions, send mail to: Richard Nute: ri...@ieee.org Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: No longer online until our new server is brought online and the old messages are imported into the new server.
