Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[EV List Lackey via EV]

On 13 Jan 2024 at 17:19, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:

> Let's not assume Tesla's sales success is because it has an unequivocally
> better EV product today.
> 
> What it does have is:
> 
> -a reliable, easy to use, rapidly growing, DCFC network

True in the US, but not in Europe.  For years, Tesla seems to have put much 
higher priority on the US than on Europe.  Last I heard, they had only 800 
supercharger stations for the entire continent.  

>From the US, it looks like Tesla has won the charging-standard wars.  From 
Europe and China, where the real future of EV growth lies, the picture looks 
a little different.

China is sticking with GB/T, now able to handle up to 1.2 mw of power.

In Europe, CCS Type 2 / Mennekes rules.  Even Teslas charge with them.  I 
don't see that changing, especially now that EU law requires full 
interoperability, and is stirring the pot for higher DC charging power and 
closer-spaced motorway stations (every 60km).

> The competition is hungry, and I feel Tesla is, in important ways,
> coasting. 

Well, if Tesla is coasting, one reason might be that Elon Musk IS Tesla, and 
he's not paying attention.  And THAT might be because he's too busy ranting 
about "woke mind virus" and driving away potential Tesla buyers with his 
favorite shiny new toy, Twitte .. oops, "X." 

Meanwhile, the competition is hungry because they have to be. In 2035 sales 
of new passenger ICEVs will be banned or strictly limited in Europe.  If 
automakers don't build EVs for Europe, they won't sell cars in Europe.  

Automakers paying more attention than Tesla have also seen the increasing EV 
saturation in the luxury segments.  (In Europe, the 3/Y is considered a 
large luxury car.)

They've realized that their ad campaigns for expensive SUVs, both ICEV and 
EV, still haven't blown small, low cost cars out of the EU market. (In 
France, the 2 top-selling cars in 2023 were superminis.)

And they smell cheap Chinese EVs quietly creeping up behind them.

In Europe, automakers are acting accordingly.  

Stellantis already has a ~23,000 euro (~$25,000)  EV.  

Soon both they and Renault will have 20,000 euro ($22,000) EVs. 

VW is aiming for the same price point. 

I expect that there will be more.

Those prices are BEFORE subtracting subsidies.  For example, France's eco 
bonus will put the Citroen E-C3 at 17,200 euro ($18,900).

Meanwhile, Elon Musk continues to mumble about Tesla maybe someday offering 
a $25,000 EV.  But with Tesla putting its effort into trying to manufacture 
their $61,000 oversize stainless steel doorstop effectively, "someday" isn't 
looking all that close just now. 

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my 
offlist address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 The internet, in its current shape, has brought out the worst parts 
 of humanity and is hiding the best parts. It's possible [that] the 
 internet has made us lose our minds. 

 -- Sarah Jeong

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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

On Sat, Jan 13, 2024, 20:56 Rush via EV  wrote:

>
>
>
>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: EV  On Behalf Of Haudy Kazemi via EV
> > Single pedal cannot give you maximum stopping force, unless it is
> configured
> to
> > apply max force upon release. That doesn't seem like a good idea for a
> smooth
> > driving experience. I don't see the brake pedal disappearing.
>
> When I drive my Model 3, I rarely use the brake pedal, sometimes not even
> once a
> trip and I do 3-5 trips a day about 5 miles each. For my last trip today,
> which
> was 7.8 miles, I used 4% of my battery, Range used was 6.1 miles - meaning
> I
> regened 1.7 miles and my efficiency was 128%. And here's one from earlier
> today
> where I stepped on the go pedal, distance 0.7 miles, battery used 1%,
> Range used
> 1.2miles (so I really stepped on it!), and efficiency was 55%. Even when I
> step
> on it, it is very easy to slow back down to a legal limit by just letting
> up on
> the go pedal.
>


To be clear, I agree that single pedal with hold can cover most cases. BUT,
single pedal regen doesn't use the maximum possible braking power (which
would be full regen + full friction braking).

My earlier comments are specific to the maximum braking power scenario
(which should just be used for emergency braking, and that should not be
how a person is driving on a regular basis). A smooth driver should hardly
need the brakes, even in a Prius or early Leaf, both of which have very
limited Regen capabilities.

For the maximum power scenario, a separate braking pedal is still needed.

>
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Rush via EV]

> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of Haudy Kazemi via EV
> Single pedal cannot give you maximum stopping force, unless it is configured
to
> apply max force upon release. That doesn't seem like a good idea for a smooth
> driving experience. I don't see the brake pedal disappearing.

When I drive my Model 3, I rarely use the brake pedal, sometimes not even once a
trip and I do 3-5 trips a day about 5 miles each. For my last trip today, which
was 7.8 miles, I used 4% of my battery, Range used was 6.1 miles - meaning I
regened 1.7 miles and my efficiency was 128%. And here's one from earlier today
where I stepped on the go pedal, distance 0.7 miles, battery used 1%, Range used
1.2miles (so I really stepped on it!), and efficiency was 55%. Even when I step
on it, it is very easy to slow back down to a legal limit by just letting up on
the go pedal.

Best regards,

Rush Dougherty
TucsonEV
1014 E King St
Tucson AZ 85719
520 240 7493
www.TucsonEV.com



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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Lee Hart via EV]

Anyone who has driven a Ford model T can certainly attest to the challenges of 
having all the controls in the "wrong" locations. (OK, the steering wheel is 
the same as modern cars; but nothing else).

The early EVs also had considerably different controls. How about tiller 
steering? :-)

The tiller also had a hand grip that you rotated forward to accelerate, and 
backward for braking. Backward would give you *plenty* of electric braking 
force!

Lee
--
Excellence does not require perfection. -- Henry James
--
Lee A. Hart https://www.sunrise-ev.com

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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

You're right, Larry, I should be charging big money for these flashes 
of brilliance!


Lawrence Winiarski wrote:


Stopgiving...them...ideas

On Saturday, January 13, 2024, 9:39:14 AM PST, Mr. Sharkey via EV 
 wrote:


Making vehicles with intuitive control layout is a safety feature.
Maybe Tesla will switch the brake and accelerator pedals just to be "unique"?


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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

Stopgiving...them...ideas
On Saturday, January 13, 2024, 9:39:14 AM PST, Mr. Sharkey via EV 
 wrote:  
Making vehicles with intuitive control layout is a safety feature. 
Maybe Tesla will switch the brake and accelerator pedals just to be "unique"?

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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

On Sat, Jan 13, 2024, 17:27 John Lussmyer via EV  wrote:

> On 1/13/2024 3:19 PM, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:
> > Single pedal cannot give you maximum stopping force, unless it is
> > configured to apply max force upon release. That doesn't seem like a good
> > idea for a smooth driving experience. I don't see the brake pedal
> > disappearing.
>
> Single pedal can give max braking - when used with the (always included)
> driver assist package that really, reallydoesn't want you to collide
> with the car in front of you.
>


Well, okay, I'll concede in that scenario. But that scenario requires radar
and/or camera sensors and software to be operational, which is definitely
not 100% of the time (nor 5-9s).

And it cannot be the only way to apply max braking force.
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs

[George McNeir via EV]

Hertz is in business to make money. It is a BUSINESS not a government anti 
pollution program.
I did not build my 40 foot long Totally Electric Powered Solar (TEPS)tm boat 
for sale or rental.
It would never yield a profit that to allow a company to generate enough money 
to pay workers, a design team, insurance, taxes, marketing and enough profit 
for me to plow back into sales.

I am a solar boat nut because it works perfectly BUT only for a few folks who 
desire a slow go. EVs provide a fast go but limited range - therefore limited 
acceptance. Hertz has run the numbers and the numbers are poor (to put it 
exceptionally nice).

My solar boat, its design, 35 years work, testing and upgrades has shown me 
that I will stick to ICEs for the rest of my foreseeable life. Preferable ICEs 
are vintage 1956 to 1979. However a 2005 Mercedes Benz Sprinter, five cylinder 
diesel, low emission is approaching 300k miles of carefree driving. EVs are 
great for certain applications and limited range unlike the MOG Canal Boat with 
unlimited range and low speed.

As an industrial designer I expect more than a glass dash to impulse me to buy 
an EV. I want power, speed, economy of PURCHASE, economy of fueling 
(electricity), low maintenance/cost and stations galore for fuel. That ain’t 
happened yet and Hertz is wiser.

Until there is a 10 minute zero to full battery charge station with 20 servers 
every few kilometers and a vastly improved national grid to deliver the 
gigawatts of power to slake demand, I will be on the sidelines rooting for the 
EVs but definitely not impressed to date.
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On 1/13/2024 3:19 PM, Haudy Kazemi via EV wrote:

Single pedal cannot give you maximum stopping force, unless it is
configured to apply max force upon release. That doesn't seem like a good
idea for a smooth driving experience. I don't see the brake pedal
disappearing.


Single pedal can give max braking - when used with the (always included) 
driver assist package that really, reallydoesn't want you to collide 
with the car in front of you.

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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Haudy Kazemi via EV]

On Sat, Jan 13, 2024, 16:03 Willie via EV  wrote:

>
> On 1/13/24 11:38, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:
> > > all the buttons, stalks, switches, etc that mimic
> > > obsolete cars and satisfies those with such fetishes.
> >
> > Exactly how is having commonly used controls that are needed for the
> > safe operation of a vehicle right out in plain sight and easily
> > adjusted without requiring the driver to take eyes off the road a
> > "fetish"? C'mon, Willie look at what you just wrote!
> >
> > Seems more like Tesla is masturbating with technology in order to
> > appear more modern than anything. Sure, put the setup and deep
> > adjustments behind a screen, but if I want to control the heater,
> > radio (I know, obsolete...) or wipers, let me just reach for the
> > hardware control and continue to concentrate on driving (I know, also
> > obsolete once FSD is a "reality").
> >
> > Making vehicles with intuitive control layout is a safety feature.
> > Maybe Tesla will switch the brake and accelerator pedals just to be
> > "unique"?
>
> Thanks, you've made your bias clear.  BUT, there are FAR more EV drivers
> that appreciate the value of Teslas, as they show by buying them, than
> all other, non-Tesla, EVs combined.



Let's not assume Tesla's sales success is because it has an unequivocally
better EV product today.

What it does have is:

-a reliable, easy to use, rapidly growing, DCFC network
-vehicles that can effectively use that DCFC network (regularly at 100 kW+
sustained charging power, with peaks above 250 kW)
-vehicle price points, that for a 300 mile range vehicle, currently
undercuts the competition
-the most and longest experience with making reliable lithium battery
packs, having been through several product generations so far
-bulk EV production capacity, and the supply chain to support it, leading
to actual product being available for sale
-a generally excellent maps and navigation system, with integrated, near
real-time, charging information (I recently compared it to Android Auto on
a 2023 Toyota vehicle, and felt Tesla software was mostly better. Main
thing that the Toyota had that was better in terms of software was
including a regional weather map screen. Tesla should have a radar overlay
later on the maps.)

IMO, those advantages, together, have so far sufficiently outweighed the
product weaknesses (which include certain UI decisions and feature/hardware
cuts and missing capabilities) to allow Tesla to hold an EV sales lead.

But, the advantages shouldn't be interpreted as Tesla having an unshakable
position.

The competition is hungry, and I feel Tesla is, in important ways,
coasting. Some of its recent tech additions (heat pumps) are half
innovation (octovalve) and half catch-up (the heat pump itself). Nissan had
heat pumps in 2013. V2L is another catch up item...seen on several
competitor products for years, and even on some Toyota hybrids.

IMO, for Tesla to reliably maintain its lead, it will increasingly need to
offer an equal or better product (including availability) and product
experience, and equal or better supporting infrastructure, and equal or
better service.

Anything less leaves room for hungry competitors to peel away customers. Or
for current customers to feel spurned, and to consider jumping to a
competitor, when they are ready to purchase again.


  You seem to argue that development
> of automobiles is near complete with no need to consider other ways of
> doing things.  Tesla (and some other EVs) has made the brake pedal near
> obsolete.  Indeed, we seem to be on the cusp of making human drivers
> obsolete.
>

Single pedal cannot give you maximum stopping force, unless it is
configured to apply max force upon release. That doesn't seem like a good
idea for a smooth driving experience. I don't see the brake pedal
disappearing.
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

> you've made your bias clear

Oh, I'm not necessarily biased against the vehicles, it's not 
arguable that they don't represent the pinnacle of automotive 
technology to date. My bias is against the company, which seems to 
operate on a very rigid, control-freak centric business plan. That 
and a one-size-fits-all product lineup with software-enabled options 
that really don't make the cars affordable for buyers who don't want 
to enable features they don't need. I'm not spending several years 
worth of my retirement income on ~any~ car.


For better or worse, a segment of my technology use includes Apple 
products (schmott phone, schmott watch). The Apple way of handling 
consumers that want a consideration that's not in the company model 
are told in effect: "If you want your Apple product to do something 
that it won't, there something wrong with YOU, not the device".


Yes, I do support Musk with $$$, as the only viable internet service 
available here is Starlink. In order to use it, I have to tolerate 
some things I don't like, including such things as the cost, which 
seems to be at premium rates in the US, while other parts of the 
world pay a fraction of the rate, and the use of Spacex satellites 
for military purposes. I hold my nose, and pay the monthly invoice, 
but if something else came along, I'd jump out the airlock in a second.


MiniBMS modules are definitely obsolete, but they help keep my EV and 
electric tractor running, and being field-repairable, having a stock 
of them on hand is never a bad thing. I'll contact you off-list, 
assuming that your email address hasn't changed in the last couple of 
years. Thanks.


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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Willie via EV]

On 1/13/24 11:38, Mr. Sharkey via EV wrote:

> all the buttons, stalks, switches, etc that mimic
> obsolete cars and satisfies those with such fetishes.

Exactly how is having commonly used controls that are needed for the 
safe operation of a vehicle right out in plain sight and easily 
adjusted without requiring the driver to take eyes off the road a 
"fetish"? C'mon, Willie look at what you just wrote!


Seems more like Tesla is masturbating with technology in order to 
appear more modern than anything. Sure, put the setup and deep 
adjustments behind a screen, but if I want to control the heater, 
radio (I know, obsolete...) or wipers, let me just reach for the 
hardware control and continue to concentrate on driving (I know, also 
obsolete once FSD is a "reality").


Making vehicles with intuitive control layout is a safety feature. 
Maybe Tesla will switch the brake and accelerator pedals just to be 
"unique"?


Thanks, you've made your bias clear.  BUT, there are FAR more EV drivers 
that appreciate the value of Teslas, as they show by buying them, than 
all other, non-Tesla, EVs combined.  You seem to argue that development 
of automobiles is near complete with no need to consider other ways of 
doing things.  Tesla (and some other EVs) has made the brake pedal near 
obsolete.  Indeed, we seem to be on the cusp of making human drivers 
obsolete.


BTW, a few years ago, I gave you a batch of mostly "miniBMS" balancing 
modules.  I have recently seen another batch.  Do you want them?  
Condition unknown but likely mostly bad.




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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

> As far as I know, all of the Tesla's are available without
> the Full Self Driving and Autopilot software.  Since you
> have to pay extra for those features, they are cheaper.

Ah, but you ~are~ paying extra for those features, even if you don't 
enable them, as the *hardware* to support them is built into every 
car. Unless, of course Tesla is charging more for enabling FSD than 
the actual cost of the software in order to cover the hardware 
expenses on the non-enabled cars.


Yeah, right, how likely is that?

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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas

[John Blair via EV]

> On Jan 13, 2024, at 10:29 AM, Mark E. Hanson via EV  wrote:
> 
> It would also be nice if Tesla made a non-self driving "Autopilot" less car
> - and sell for less $$.

As far as I know, all of the Tesla’s are available without the Full Self 
Driving and Autopilot software.  Since you have to pay extra for those 
features, they are cheaper.  Maybe you meant something different?


John
John Blair

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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[John Blair via EV]

> On Jan 13, 2024, at 9:38 AM, Mr. Sharkey via EV  wrote:
> 
>  Sure, put the setup and deep adjustments behind a screen, but if I want to 
> control the heater, radio (I know, obsolete...) or wipers, let me just reach 
> for the hardware control and continue to concentrate on driving (I know, also 
> obsolete once FSD is a "reality”).

Actually, all I have to do on my Tesla Y is use my thumb to push the right hand 
knob on the steering wheel and tell the car what I want to do with the climate 
control (“increase fan speed by 2” or “increase temperature by 3 degrees”).  So 
I don’t have to reach for anything or take my eyes off of the road to adjust 
the climate control. That’s one advantage of having the “screen-based” 
controls.  

I know that the controls are different than the hardware-based ones. I’ve been 
driving for over 50 years and it only took me a few minutes to understand and 
work the new controls.  Now they seem much easier to use. That said, Teslas may 
not be ideal as rental vehicles for those folks who don’t own one.

John
John Blair
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[EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas

[Mark E. Hanson via EV]

Well said Dave; 

 

The bottom line is, all rentals *must* have standard controls where you
expect them - *no* learning curve (especially while driving = crash).

 

It would also be nice if Tesla made a non-self driving "Autopilot" less car
- and sell for less $$.

 

While I've *never* met an EV I didn't like, conventional controls like my
Bolt, Leaf (or even the Tesla-S) are better when *others* drive my car.

 

Best Regards,

Mark in Roanoke, VA

 

From: "EV List Lackey" mailto:evp...@drmm.net> >

To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailto:ev@lists.evdl.org> >

Subject: Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas,

for gas cars | Reuters

Message-ID: <65a21eb1.23779.3149...@evpost.drmm.net
<mailto:65a21eb1.23779.3149...@evpost.drmm.net> >

Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

 

On 12 Jan 2024 at 10:29, Rush via EV wrote:

 

> I've heard lots of whining about how difficult change is but this 

> thread takes the cake

 

VW is returning to real physical controls - at least simulated ones -
because all over the world their customers have told VW that they despise
touchscreens.  

 

But that's a matter of taste.  

 

Having controls where the driver expects them is a matter of *safety*.  

 

No one should have to watch a video introduction or take a class before
driving a rental car, or even a new car he's just bought.

 

Tesla moved controls to a touchscreen not because anyone asked for them
there, but because Elon Musk himself, stuck in his adolescent science
fiction world, wanted them there.  

 

Musk doesn't build cars for customers, he builds them for himself. If you
happen to like what he likes, great.  Otherwise, tough.  

 

That's been working surprisingly well for him, but that was before the
unfolding "Cybertruck" disaster. That hideous, awkward, grossly inefficient
lump belongs in a dystopian SF film, not on the road.  If he stubbornly
carries on with it, it will be Tesla's undoing.

 

David Roden, EVDL moderator & general lackey

 

To reach me, don't reply to this message; I won't get it.  Use my offlist
address here : http://evdl.org/help/index.html#supt

 

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 

 

 Twenty years ago, if you were eating dinner under the unblinking eye 

 of a video-camera, it was because you were in a supermax prison. Now, 

 thanks to "luxury surveillance," you can get the same experience in 

 your middle-class home with your Google, Apple or Amazon "smart" 

 camera.

 

 -- Cory Doctorow

 

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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Mr. Sharkey via EV]

> all the buttons, stalks, switches, etc that mimic
> obsolete cars and satisfies those with such fetishes.

Exactly how is having commonly used controls that are needed for the 
safe operation of a vehicle right out in plain sight and easily 
adjusted without requiring the driver to take eyes off the road a 
"fetish"? C'mon, Willie look at what you just wrote!


Seems more like Tesla is masturbating with technology in order to 
appear more modern than anything. Sure, put the setup and deep 
adjustments behind a screen, but if I want to control the heater, 
radio (I know, obsolete...) or wipers, let me just reach for the 
hardware control and continue to concentrate on driving (I know, also 
obsolete once FSD is a "reality").


Making vehicles with intuitive control layout is a safety feature. 
Maybe Tesla will switch the brake and accelerator pedals just to be "unique"?


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[EVDL] LFP batteries now a better option than reclaimed batteries

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

This will help all aspects of battery adoption, except corded devices. Lawrence 
Rhodes.  
https://www.energy-storage.news/lfp-price-falls-make-first-life-batteries-more-attractive-than-second-life-ones-firm-says/
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Re: [EVDL] 156v Tech assistance needed

[paul dove via EV]

Hey John,
You say you run your shop off of the 24v setup….. do you have an inverter that 
makes 120VAC? Or 240VAC? 
Seems to me that all you need is an inverter and a charger. There would be some 
losses but simple to implement. 
If you go straight to the battery from the array you could use a DC to DC 
converter. Not sure of availability at those voltages. Let me think a bit and 
I’ll back to you.
Paul


Sent from AT Yahoo Mail for iPhone


On Friday, January 12, 2024, 9:21 PM, John McIntire via EV  
wrote:

Having read this list for several years now, and commented occasionally, I know 
there some electrical engineers out there. It is to you I address this problem.

I am now the proud owner of a '96 Solectria Force which will be receiving a new 
battery made up of 48, 280A LiFePo4 prismatic cells. The Force was designed to 
run at 156v (13 lead acid batteries). My primary power source is a 16 panel, 
8.5 Kw PV array. Max voltage under load is 43v/panel at 13A. There is no back 
up power as I am not grid tied. I do have a small domestic 24v Li battery to 
run my shop. The Force battery will be equipped with a robust BMS.

I can configure the panels to provide 172v at 52A in full sun but I know that 
the voltage and amp will be unstable which does not promote longevity in Li 
cells. Normal circumstances have a charge controller between the battery and 
the array to even out the voltage. Normal charge controllers are 48v or less. I 
would like to find or build a buck/boost circuit that would match the battery.

I think I could break the Force battery into 3, 16s packs, charge them parallel 
at 48v+ and then reconnect in series for discharge. I think 2 contactors per 
pack along with appropriate safety devices would do the job but that seems 
cumbersome at best if workable.

I am not an engineer. I do have 30 years experience with automotive 
electronics. Since partial retirement, over the past 15 years I have converted 
an S-10 and 2 tractors to run as EVs. So I am somewhat familiar with the 
concepts and pitfalls.

I would appreciate your thoughts and suggestions. Thanks in advance.

John M

"Money doesn't talk, it swears"--Bob Dylan
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Rush via EV]

> On 1/12/2024 8:25 PM, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
> > That's been working surprisingly well for him, but that was before the
> > unfolding "Cybertruck" disaster. That hideous, awkward, grossly
> > inefficient lump belongs in a dystopian SF film, not on the road.  If
> > he stubbornly carries on with it, it will be Tesla's undoing.

Then John responded -
> Yeah, sure.  The vehicle with over 2 million pre-orders.
> The vehicle that has better specs, and a similar price to comparable EV 
> trucks.
> The vehicle that Tesla will make a profit on - while all other EV trucks are 
> being
> sold at a loss.
> Right.  Sure that will hurt Tesla.

Well said John. Look what happened with the Tesla Plug/Inlet. When Tesla first 
proposed the NACS everybody said, oh no, CCS is here to stay. The EV 
manufactures 
took a look at the total charging system that Tesla had designed and 
implemented 
and then decided that NACS was for them So far Ford, General Motors, 
Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Volvo, Polestar, Rivian, Fisker, Honda, Jaguar, Hyundai, 
BMW, Toyota and two EVSE companies Electrify America and ChargePoint have said 
that they are going to use the NACS.

Rush
www.TucsonEV.com




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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

Meh...It's too small of a sample and far too early to say whether "The Market" 
has decided.   The good news is EV's in general are doing prettywell and 
obviously we have a pretty diverse range of strong opinions on user interfaces. 
  I think it's perfectly fair to disagree on what is obviously
personal preference.   

That said...all glass controls are the work of the devil


On Saturday, January 13, 2024 at 05:37:34 AM PST, Willie via EV 
 wrote:  
 
 
On 1/12/24 22:25, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:
> Tesla moved controls to a touchscreen not because anyone asked for them
> there, but because Elon Musk himself, stuck in his adolescent science
> fiction world, wanted them there.
You might explain your reasoning behind that rather illogical comment.
>  
>
> Musk doesn't build cars for customers, he builds them for himself. If you
> happen to like what he likes, great.  Otherwise, tough.
Again, I can not see any reasoning on your part.  The market is clearly 
deciding whether cost effective and minimalist controls will prevail.  
Or not.  Someone can remind me what fraction of the market Tesla 
commands.  There are plenty of inferior EVs out there that are offering 
all the buttons, stalks, switches, etc that mimic obsolete cars and 
satisfies those with such fetishes.
>
> That's been working surprisingly well for him, but that was before the
> unfolding "Cybertruck" disaster. That hideous, awkward, grossly inefficient
> lump belongs in a dystopian SF film, not on the road.  If he stubbornly
> carries on with it, it will be Tesla's undoing.
I see John did a fine job of refuting the above.
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Re: [EVDL] Rental giant Hertz dumps EVs, including Teslas, for gas cars | Reuters

[Willie via EV]

On 1/12/24 22:25, EV List Lackey via EV wrote:

Tesla moved controls to a touchscreen not because anyone asked for them
there, but because Elon Musk himself, stuck in his adolescent science
fiction world, wanted them there.

You might explain your reasoning behind that rather illogical comment.
  


Musk doesn't build cars for customers, he builds them for himself. If you
happen to like what he likes, great.  Otherwise, tough.
Again, I can not see any reasoning on your part.  The market is clearly 
deciding whether cost effective and minimalist controls will prevail.  
Or not.  Someone can remind me what fraction of the market Tesla 
commands.  There are plenty of inferior EVs out there that are offering 
all the buttons, stalks, switches, etc that mimic obsolete cars and 
satisfies those with such fetishes.


That's been working surprisingly well for him, but that was before the
unfolding "Cybertruck" disaster. That hideous, awkward, grossly inefficient
lump belongs in a dystopian SF film, not on the road.  If he stubbornly
carries on with it, it will be Tesla's undoing.

I see John did a fine job of refuting the above.
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