Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Peri,
That sounds like it is including the comfort creature power draw.
It is simple to check, I believe that holding the "dot" button down resets the 
efficiency meter,
so drive a mile with the heater/defrost on and then a mile without and reset 
the meter
before each mile. The meter updates every few hundred yards so you should see 
the difference immediately.
As far as I know the battery is not much affected as long as it is not 
seriously below freezing
and then mostly the *power* is restricted, not even the capacity much affected.
At extremely low temps the battery heater comes on, but now we are talking 
about 30 deg below or so.
And the battery heaters only come on when the car is on or charging, since the 
heaters are connected
to the "car" side of the battery contactors.
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: Peri Hartman [mailto:pe...@kotatko.com] 
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 3:26 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List; Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Cor van de Water
Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

The tires are, or should be, at the manufacturer's recommended pressure. 
Not sure what that is at the moment. Regardless, I find it hard to believe that 
would make a difference of 100% between cool and warm weather driving.

Again, the first question is about the meter: does it include all the aux or is 
it just traction?

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
Sent: 23-Oct-17 2:37:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

>Peri,
>If you have tires already well pumped (~45 PSI) and nothing is dragging 
>then I found that tweaking the toe of the front wheels makes a lot of 
>difference in the consumption (mi/kWh) which can easily make a 
>difference of more than 10 miles per charge.
>My first Leaf had trouble allowing me even to get 3.7 mi/kWh and then I 
>saw my current Leaf showing 4.9 kWh/mi so I checked the difference and 
>all I could find was that this Leaf had a slight toe-out.
>I drive more freeway than the previous owner, but it still gives me 
>close to 4.5 mi/kWh and the tweaked toe of my original Leaf also 
>increased its efficiency.
>Cor.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman 
>via EV
>Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 2:26 PM
>To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
>Cc: Peri Hartman
>Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?
>
>Hi Lawrence,
>
>I've been paying attention to the kWh usage for various kinds of trips 
>over the last several months. In summer, with reasonably careful 
>driving, I could normally get better than 4 miles / kWh. Just like you
>;) That was with no AC or other high aux loads. Now that we have cooler 
>weather, it's maxing out around 2 miles / kWh. That's with heat and 
>defrost on.
>
>Do you, or anyone, know if the Leaf miles / kWh meter (lower left of 
>steering wheel) includes all the aux power or is it just the traction 
>power? If the latter, then I would hypothesize that the battery is very 
>sensitive to outdoor temperature. But, this seems extreme.
>
>Peri
>
>-- Original Message --
>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
>To: "Peri Hartman" 
>Cc:
>Sent: 05-Mar-17 9:52:09 PM
>Subject: Re: Re[6]: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?
>
>>Starting and stopping it certainly will.  However when city driving I 
>>accelerate to the speed limit and coast to the next stop if possible 
>>using Regen to slow.  LR
>>
>>Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device
>>
>>On Mar 5, 2017 9:45 PM, Peri Hartman  wrote:
>>>Temperature could be contributing, but we're not that much colder - 
>>>high 30s today. I think I'll check the brakes and see if they're 
>>>dragging. Other than that, I think you are probably better at it than 
>>>I and have better road conditions - lesser grades, longer blocks 
>>>without stops, etc. Still, it definitely made a difference for me for 
>>>city driving.
>>>
>>>Peri
>>>
>>>-- Original Message --
>>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
>>>To: "Peri Hartman" 
>>>Cc:
>>>Sent: 05-Mar-17 9:38:10 PM
>>>Subject: Re: Re[4]: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?
>>>
>>>>Seems temperature is an issue.  My Leaf shows 4.3 average.
>>>>Temperature here is 45 F or higher.  I also coast as much as 
>>>>possible.  LR
>>>>
>>>>Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device
>>>>
>>>>On Mar 5, 2017 8:51 PM, Peri Hartman  wrote:
>>>>>I tried a mostly freeway drive today, ab

Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

The tires are, or should be, at the manufacturer's recommended pressure. 
Not sure what that is at the moment. Regardless, I find it hard to 
believe that would make a difference of 100% between cool and warm 
weather driving.


Again, the first question is about the meter: does it include all the 
aux or is it just traction?


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
Sent: 23-Oct-17 2:37:52 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?


Peri,
If you have tires already well pumped (~45 PSI) and nothing is dragging
then I found that tweaking the toe of the front wheels makes a lot of
difference
in the consumption (mi/kWh) which can easily make a difference of more
than 10 miles per charge.
My first Leaf had trouble allowing me even to get 3.7 mi/kWh
and then I saw my current Leaf showing 4.9 kWh/mi so I checked the
difference
and all I could find was that this Leaf had a slight toe-out.
I drive more freeway than the previous owner, but it still gives me
close to 4.5 mi/kWh
and the tweaked toe of my original Leaf also increased its efficiency.
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman
via EV
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 2:26 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Peri Hartman
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

Hi Lawrence,

I've been paying attention to the kWh usage for various kinds of trips
over the last several months. In summer, with reasonably careful
driving, I could normally get better than 4 miles / kWh. Just like you
;) That was with no AC or other high aux loads. Now that we have cooler
weather, it's maxing out around 2 miles / kWh. That's with heat and
defrost on.

Do you, or anyone, know if the Leaf miles / kWh meter (lower left of
steering wheel) includes all the aux power or is it just the traction
power? If the latter, then I would hypothesize that the battery is very
sensitive to outdoor temperature. But, this seems extreme.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
To: "Peri Hartman" 
Cc:
Sent: 05-Mar-17 9:52:09 PM
Subject: Re: Re[6]: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?


Starting and stopping it certainly will.  However when city driving I
accelerate to the speed limit and coast to the next stop if possible
using Regen to slow.  LR

Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device

On Mar 5, 2017 9:45 PM, Peri Hartman  wrote:

Temperature could be contributing, but we're not that much colder -
high 30s today. I think I'll check the brakes and see if they're
dragging. Other than that, I think you are probably better at it than
I and have better road conditions - lesser grades, longer blocks
without stops, etc. Still, it definitely made a difference for me for
city driving.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
To: "Peri Hartman" 
Cc:
Sent: 05-Mar-17 9:38:10 PM
Subject: Re: Re[4]: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?


Seems temperature is an issue.  My Leaf shows 4.3 average.
Temperature here is 45 F or higher.  I also coast as much as
possible.  LR

Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device

On Mar 5, 2017 8:51 PM, Peri Hartman  wrote:
I tried a mostly freeway drive today, about 12 miles each way. 
Going



there I averaged 3.0 miles/kwh, coming back I got 3.3, the primary
difference probably being elevation change. I did my absolute best
to try to stay with 2 balls but I found it took 3 balls to maintain
about 56-57mph on the flat. Also there were some short grades where
I had to go to 6 balls to keep within 10 mph of the speed limit and
longer grades where I need 4 to stay at 50. It's an interesting
challenge and experiment. I'll have to try the same trip again
limiting to 4 balls and see how much difference there is.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
To: "Peri Hartman" 
Cc:
Sent: 27-Feb-17 3:59:01 PM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?


It's one thing safety with too much going on.  But my eyes flutter
to the power consumption and using the two ball system isn't like
keeping an eye all the time on the miles per kwh.  I can do it and
I have gotten amazing range but when going 25 in the city I'm
always coasting up to lights.  So again no way having cruise
control on saves energy. Saves your brain.  Not energy. Those 
micro

adjustments is what wastes energy.   Lawrence


---
-
From: Peri Hartman 
To: Lawrence Rhodes 
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 1:01 PM
Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

I'll disagree, privately. Let me explain. If you are going 25mph
and you regulate manually, you are probaby going to vary between 
22



and 27 or so. It's just too hard to keep an eye on traffic and
other activities an

Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[Paul Compton via EV]

I set my Scirocco conversion up by using a set of slide plates.
They're mounted on bearings that allow them to only move laterally and
the amount they move as the vehicle rolls over indicates the toe under
load more accurately than the normal method. I'd set up for a small
amount of toe-out, so that the wheels are at zero toe under cruise
load.

On 23 October 2017 at 22:37, Cor van de Water via EV  wrote:
> Peri,
> If you have tires already well pumped (~45 PSI) and nothing is dragging
> then I found that tweaking the toe of the front wheels makes a lot of
> difference
> in the consumption (mi/kWh) which can easily make a difference of more
> than 10 miles per charge.
> My first Leaf had trouble allowing me even to get 3.7 mi/kWh
> and then I saw my current Leaf showing 4.9 kWh/mi so I checked the
> difference
> and all I could find was that this Leaf had a slight toe-out.
> I drive more freeway than the previous owner, but it still gives me
> close to 4.5 mi/kWh
> and the tweaked toe of my original Leaf also increased its efficiency.
> Cor.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman
> via EV
> Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 2:26 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
> Cc: Peri Hartman
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?
>
> Hi Lawrence,
>
> I've been paying attention to the kWh usage for various kinds of trips
> over the last several months. In summer, with reasonably careful
> driving, I could normally get better than 4 miles / kWh. Just like you
> ;) That was with no AC or other high aux loads. Now that we have cooler
> weather, it's maxing out around 2 miles / kWh. That's with heat and
> defrost on.
>
> Do you, or anyone, know if the Leaf miles / kWh meter (lower left of
> steering wheel) includes all the aux power or is it just the traction
> power? If the latter, then I would hypothesize that the battery is very
> sensitive to outdoor temperature. But, this seems extreme.
>
> Peri
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
> To: "Peri Hartman" 
> Cc:
> Sent: 05-Mar-17 9:52:09 PM
> Subject: Re: Re[6]: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?
>
>>Starting and stopping it certainly will.  However when city driving I
>>accelerate to the speed limit and coast to the next stop if possible
>>using Regen to slow.  LR
>>
>>Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device
>>
>>On Mar 5, 2017 9:45 PM, Peri Hartman  wrote:
>>>Temperature could be contributing, but we're not that much colder -
>>>high 30s today. I think I'll check the brakes and see if they're
>>>dragging. Other than that, I think you are probably better at it than
>>>I and have better road conditions - lesser grades, longer blocks
>>>without stops, etc. Still, it definitely made a difference for me for
>>>city driving.
>>>
>>>Peri
>>>
>>>-- Original Message --
>>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
>>>To: "Peri Hartman" 
>>>Cc:
>>>Sent: 05-Mar-17 9:38:10 PM
>>>Subject: Re: Re[4]: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?
>>>
>>>>Seems temperature is an issue.  My Leaf shows 4.3 average.
>>>>Temperature here is 45 F or higher.  I also coast as much as
>>>>possible.  LR
>>>>
>>>>Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device
>>>>
>>>>On Mar 5, 2017 8:51 PM, Peri Hartman  wrote:
>>>>>I tried a mostly freeway drive today, about 12 miles each way. Going
>
>>>>>there I averaged 3.0 miles/kwh, coming back I got 3.3, the primary
>>>>>difference probably being elevation change. I did my absolute best
>>>>>to try to stay with 2 balls but I found it took 3 balls to maintain
>>>>>about 56-57mph on the flat. Also there were some short grades where
>>>>>I had to go to 6 balls to keep within 10 mph of the speed limit and
>>>>>longer grades where I need 4 to stay at 50. It's an interesting
>>>>>challenge and experiment. I'll have to try the same trip again
>>>>>limiting to 4 balls and see how much difference there is.
>>>>>
>>>>>Peri
>>>>>
>>>>>-- Original Message --
>>>>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
>>>>>To: "Peri Hartman" 
>>>>>Cc:
>>>>>Sent: 27-Feb-17 3:59:01 PM
>>>>>Subject: Re: Re[2]: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?
>>>>>
>>>>>>It's one thing safety with too much going on.  But my

Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Peri,
If you have tires already well pumped (~45 PSI) and nothing is dragging
then I found that tweaking the toe of the front wheels makes a lot of
difference
in the consumption (mi/kWh) which can easily make a difference of more
than 10 miles per charge.
My first Leaf had trouble allowing me even to get 3.7 mi/kWh
and then I saw my current Leaf showing 4.9 kWh/mi so I checked the
difference
and all I could find was that this Leaf had a slight toe-out.
I drive more freeway than the previous owner, but it still gives me
close to 4.5 mi/kWh
and the tweaked toe of my original Leaf also increased its efficiency.
Cor.

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman
via EV
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2017 2:26 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Peri Hartman
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

Hi Lawrence,

I've been paying attention to the kWh usage for various kinds of trips
over the last several months. In summer, with reasonably careful
driving, I could normally get better than 4 miles / kWh. Just like you
;) That was with no AC or other high aux loads. Now that we have cooler
weather, it's maxing out around 2 miles / kWh. That's with heat and
defrost on.

Do you, or anyone, know if the Leaf miles / kWh meter (lower left of
steering wheel) includes all the aux power or is it just the traction
power? If the latter, then I would hypothesize that the battery is very
sensitive to outdoor temperature. But, this seems extreme.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
To: "Peri Hartman" 
Cc:
Sent: 05-Mar-17 9:52:09 PM
Subject: Re: Re[6]: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

>Starting and stopping it certainly will.  However when city driving I 
>accelerate to the speed limit and coast to the next stop if possible 
>using Regen to slow.  LR
>
>Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device
>
>On Mar 5, 2017 9:45 PM, Peri Hartman  wrote:
>>Temperature could be contributing, but we're not that much colder - 
>>high 30s today. I think I'll check the brakes and see if they're 
>>dragging. Other than that, I think you are probably better at it than 
>>I and have better road conditions - lesser grades, longer blocks 
>>without stops, etc. Still, it definitely made a difference for me for 
>>city driving.
>>
>>Peri
>>
>>-- Original Message --
>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
>>To: "Peri Hartman" 
>>Cc:
>>Sent: 05-Mar-17 9:38:10 PM
>>Subject: Re: Re[4]: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?
>>
>>>Seems temperature is an issue.  My Leaf shows 4.3 average. 
>>>Temperature here is 45 F or higher.  I also coast as much as 
>>>possible.  LR
>>>
>>>Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device
>>>
>>>On Mar 5, 2017 8:51 PM, Peri Hartman  wrote:
>>>>I tried a mostly freeway drive today, about 12 miles each way. Going

>>>>there I averaged 3.0 miles/kwh, coming back I got 3.3, the primary 
>>>>difference probably being elevation change. I did my absolute best 
>>>>to try to stay with 2 balls but I found it took 3 balls to maintain 
>>>>about 56-57mph on the flat. Also there were some short grades where 
>>>>I had to go to 6 balls to keep within 10 mph of the speed limit and 
>>>>longer grades where I need 4 to stay at 50. It's an interesting 
>>>>challenge and experiment. I'll have to try the same trip again 
>>>>limiting to 4 balls and see how much difference there is.
>>>>
>>>>Peri
>>>>
>>>>-- Original Message --
>>>>From: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
>>>>To: "Peri Hartman" 
>>>>Cc:
>>>>Sent: 27-Feb-17 3:59:01 PM
>>>>Subject: Re: Re[2]: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?
>>>>
>>>>>It's one thing safety with too much going on.  But my eyes flutter 
>>>>>to the power consumption and using the two ball system isn't like 
>>>>>keeping an eye all the time on the miles per kwh.  I can do it and 
>>>>>I have gotten amazing range but when going 25 in the city I'm 
>>>>>always coasting up to lights.  So again no way having cruise 
>>>>>control on saves energy. Saves your brain.  Not energy. Those micro
>>>>>adjustments is what wastes energy.   Lawrence
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>---
>>>>>-
>>>>>From: Peri Hartman 
>>>>>To: Lawrence Rhodes 
>>>>>Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 1:01 PM
>>

Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Hi Lawrence,

I've been paying attention to the kWh usage for various kinds of trips 
over the last several months. In summer, with reasonably careful 
driving, I could normally get better than 4 miles / kWh. Just like you 
;) That was with no AC or other high aux loads. Now that we have cooler 
weather, it's maxing out around 2 miles / kWh. That's with heat and 
defrost on.


Do you, or anyone, know if the Leaf miles / kWh meter (lower left of 
steering wheel) includes all the aux power or is it just the traction 
power? If the latter, then I would hypothesize that the battery is very 
sensitive to outdoor temperature. But, this seems extreme.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
To: "Peri Hartman" 
Cc:
Sent: 05-Mar-17 9:52:09 PM
Subject: Re: Re[6]: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

Starting and stopping it certainly will.  However when city driving I 
accelerate to the speed limit and coast to the next stop if possible 
using Regen to slow.  LR


Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device

On Mar 5, 2017 9:45 PM, Peri Hartman  wrote:
Temperature could be contributing, but we're not that much colder - 
high 30s today. I think I'll check the brakes and see if they're 
dragging. Other than that, I think you are probably better at it than 
I and have better road conditions - lesser grades, longer blocks 
without stops, etc. Still, it definitely made a difference for me for 
city driving.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
To: "Peri Hartman" 
Cc:
Sent: 05-Mar-17 9:38:10 PM
Subject: Re: Re[4]: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

Seems temperature is an issue.  My Leaf shows 4.3 average. 
Temperature here is 45 F or higher.  I also coast as much as 
possible.  LR


Sent from my MetroPCS 4G LTE Android device

On Mar 5, 2017 8:51 PM, Peri Hartman  wrote:
I tried a mostly freeway drive today, about 12 miles each way. Going 
there I averaged 3.0 miles/kwh, coming back I got 3.3, the primary 
difference probably being elevation change. I did my absolute best 
to try to stay with 2 balls but I found it took 3 balls to maintain 
about 56-57mph on the flat. Also there were some short grades where 
I had to go to 6 balls to keep within 10 mph of the speed limit and 
longer grades where I need 4 to stay at 50. It's an interesting 
challenge and experiment. I'll have to try the same trip again 
limiting to 4 balls and see how much difference there is.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes" 
To: "Peri Hartman" 
Cc:
Sent: 27-Feb-17 3:59:01 PM
Subject: Re: Re[2]: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

It's one thing safety with too much going on.  But my eyes flutter 
to the power consumption and using the two ball system isn't like 
keeping an eye all the time on the miles per kwh.  I can do it and 
I have gotten amazing range but when going 25 in the city I'm 
always coasting up to lights.  So again no way having cruise 
control on saves energy. Saves your brain.  Not energy. Those micro 
adjustments is what wastes energy.   Lawrence




From: Peri Hartman 
To: Lawrence Rhodes 
Sent: Monday, February 27, 2017 1:01 PM
Subject: Re[2]: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

I'll disagree, privately. Let me explain. If you are going 25mph 
and you
regulate manually, you are probaby going to vary between 22 and 27 
or
so. It's just too hard to keep an eye on traffic and other 
activities

and also watch and control your speed. That much variance, on level
ground, is just not as optimal as the micro adjustments the cruise
control will do to maintain almost exactly 25. If you are in a stop 
& go
situation or on substantial hills, then allowing a drop to 20 
uphill and

some excess downhill will be more efficient manually, yes.

If you didn't care about maintaining a constant speed, then I think 
your
most optimal travel would be at a fixed power level. But that just 
isn't

realistic driving in most situations.

Anyway, I understand your point. I hope you understand mine.

Peri

-- Original Message ------
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; 
"ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org"


Cc:
Sent: 27-Feb-17 12:46:49 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

>No.  Yes you have to keep thinking but you will be better able to
>adjust to terrain than the cruise control because it doesn't 
adjust to
>miles per kwh just miles per hour.  Lawrence...why don't they make 
a

>kwh per mile control...Rhodes..would that be a smart cruise
>control...does such a thing exist?
>Also, for example, if you are in a 25mph zone and need to be 
careful
>about your speed, it's true that the cruise control will mostly 
either

>be drawing power or in regen. But if you need to go 25mph in a
>reasonab

Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Rhodes via EV wrote:

why don't they make a kwh per mile control...


That would be hard! In some driving conditions, it would lead to "infinite" 
speed (would try to go as fast as possible downhill). In others, your speed 
would be zero (going up a hill too steep to climb at X kwh/mile).



if you are in a 25mph zone and need to be careful about your speed, it's
true that the cruise control will mostly either be drawing power or in regen.


Not necessarily. "Hypermilers" tend to treat the engine as an on/off switch. 
When on, it runs at its most efficient setting. When off, you just coast. Not 
the most comfortable way to drive -- it makes others think you are both an idiot 
*and* and a maniac!


"Anybody driving slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster
than you is a maniac" - George Carlin

But again depending on terrain, you won't coast at over 25 mph unless it's 
downhill. Or, the automorons have decided that the vehicle's "creep" speed 
should be over 25 mph. :-)


--
Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the
complicated simple. -- Charles Mingus
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

No.  Yes you have to keep thinking but you will be better able to adjust to 
terrain than the cruise control because it doesn't adjust to miles per kwh just 
miles per hour.  Lawrence...why don't they make a kwh per mile 
control...Rhodes..would that be a smart cruise control...does such a thing 
exist?
Also, for example, if you are in a 25mph zone and need to be careful 
about your speed, it's true that the cruise control will mostly either 
be drawing power or in regen. But if you need to go 25mph in a 
reasonably flat area, I wager it will do a better job of minimizing 
power use that you will.

Peri



   
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I mostly agree. However, the regen on the 2011 Leaf is too weak to keep 
you at speed going downhill. So it actually lets you exceed the speed 
limit and then will coast until your speed drops back to your set point.


Of course, you have to be comfortable with exceeding the speed limit. 
That likely depends on the situation.


Also, for example, if you are in a 25mph zone and need to be careful 
about your speed, it's true that the cruise control will mostly either 
be drawing power or in regen. But if you need to go 25mph in a 
reasonably flat area, I wager it will do a better job of minimizing 
power use that you will.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Lawrence Rhodes via EV" 
To: "ev@lists.evdl.org" ; "ev-requ...@lists.evdl.org" 


Cc:
Sent: 27-Feb-17 7:58:45 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

Do not use cruise control at all times it will reduce your range.  It 
will however work well going up hills at a set speed.  The reason 
cruise control wastes energy is it always draws power or regens.  It 
never coasts so you lose that component you would have if you had your 
foot on the pedal.  With the foot on the pedal you can more efficiently 
back off rather than regening which wastes energy.  I know it's counter 
intuitive but if you put the power out and regen it's worse than just 
backing off.  Reclaimed energy is not as good as energy not used.  Does 
that make sense?  Lawrence Rhodes

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[Lawrence Rhodes via EV]

Do not use cruise control at all times it will reduce your range.  It will 
however work well going up hills at a set speed.  The reason cruise control 
wastes energy is it always draws power or regens.  It never coasts so you lose 
that component you would have if you had your foot on the pedal.  With the foot 
on the pedal you can more efficiently back off rather than regening which 
wastes energy.  I know it's counter intuitive but if you put the power out and 
regen it's worse than just backing off.  Reclaimed energy is not as good as 
energy not used.  Does that make sense?  Lawrence Rhodes 
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[tomw via EV]

Wow! You have all kinds of charging options! Should be no problem.  

Please say hi to Ben Brown of the Chargecar team if he is still around.  I
think he may have retired.

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[via EV]

Cal, we just acquired our second Leaf. My wife charges it with 120vac and is 
fully charged over night. You may try this before going to the expense of the 
240vac outlet. Because then you need to convert the charger to work on 240vac 
if it is the one that comes with the car. Best of luck. Congrats with your 
purchase. 

- Original Message -

From: "Cal Frye via EV"  
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List"  
Sent: Saturday, February 25, 2017 12:19:08 PM 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations? 

Peri, Tom (and others, particularly Bruce), 
I appreciate all the concern and good suggestions. You folks have 
greatly helped me feel I've thought this through very thoroughly. 

I purchased the Leaf today. Peri, it's a 2015 model S, with the battery 
apparently in top condition. It does come with the quick charger, so I'm 
set there. 

It does have the resistance heater, but so far I can see that the heated 
seats are almost all I need there. I think I will get a pair of 
fleece-lined boots for driving that will help keep my toes warm without 
having to resort to the cabin heater unless really necessary. I do see 
what effect that has on the miles remaining gauge. 

Overall, in my admittedly limited testing so far, I'm averaging 4 mi/kW, 
so I'm pleased. I've ordered an OBDII dongle for use with LeafSpy to 
keep better tabs on it. 

Tom, I do indeed have redundant charging options at work, four choices, 
actually, within easy walking distance from the office. There is a 
backup 3kW charger a mile from my house, but I will next be putting a 
240v outlet in the garage for a home charger, too. 

Along the route, there are a couple of quick charger locations at two 
Walmarts, along with charging at two Nissan dealerships, all near the 
highways I would routinely use on my commute. 

I really think I've got charging covered with reasonable alternatives 
available should my preferred be ICEd or otherwise unavailable. I have 
not personally tested in our coldest weather, but I think there's 
sufficient reserve for this to work, and there's always an ICE for 
backup, but I'm adventurous enough to want to avoid that unless 
absolutely necessary. 

The biggest problem I find with the Leaf so far is it's so quiet I often 
am exceeding the speed limit without recognizing just how fast I'm 
going. I will learn to cope. 

Best regards, -- Cal Frye, 
www.calfrye.com /Be an Internet Sceptic/ Stop. Think. Connect. 
www.stopthinkconnect.org - Be at least as safe on the Internet as you 
are crossing the street! 

"Good generally conquers evil. Unless, of course, good is stupid." 


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Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Glad to hear, Cal. I think you will be fine.

Use the cruise control. I do, even at 25mph. No, especially at 25mph :)

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Cal Frye via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc:
Sent: 25-Feb-17 12:19:08 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?


Peri, Tom (and others, particularly Bruce),
I appreciate all the concern and good suggestions. You folks have
greatly helped me feel I've thought this through very thoroughly.

I purchased the Leaf today. Peri, it's a 2015 model S, with the battery
apparently in top condition. It does come with the quick charger, so 
I'm

set there.

It does have the resistance heater, but so far I can see that the 
heated

seats are almost all I need there. I think I will get a pair of
fleece-lined boots for driving that will help keep my toes warm without
having to resort to the cabin heater unless really necessary. I do see
what effect that has on the miles remaining gauge.

Overall, in my admittedly limited testing so far, I'm averaging 4 
mi/kW,

so I'm pleased. I've ordered an OBDII dongle for use with LeafSpy to
keep better tabs on it.

Tom, I do indeed have redundant charging options at work, four choices,
actually, within easy walking distance from the office. There is a
backup 3kW charger a mile from my house, but I will next be putting a
240v outlet in the garage for a home charger, too.

Along the route, there are a couple of quick charger locations at two
Walmarts, along with charging at two Nissan dealerships, all near the
highways I would routinely use on my commute.

I really think I've got charging covered with reasonable alternatives
available should my preferred be ICEd or otherwise unavailable. I have
not personally tested in our coldest weather, but I think there's
sufficient reserve for this to work, and there's always an ICE for
backup, but I'm adventurous enough to want to avoid that unless
absolutely necessary.

The biggest problem I find with the Leaf so far is it's so quiet I 
often

am exceeding the speed limit without recognizing just how fast I'm
going. I will learn to cope.

Best regards, -- Cal Frye,
www.calfrye.com /Be an Internet Sceptic/ Stop. Think. Connect.
www.stopthinkconnect.org - Be at least as safe on the Internet as you
are crossing the street!

"Good generally conquers evil. Unless, of course, good is stupid."


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Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[Cal Frye via EV]

Peri, Tom (and others, particularly Bruce),
I appreciate all the concern and good suggestions. You folks have
greatly helped me feel I've thought this through very thoroughly.

I purchased the Leaf today. Peri, it's a 2015 model S, with the battery
apparently in top condition. It does come with the quick charger, so I'm
set there.

It does have the resistance heater, but so far I can see that the heated
seats are almost all I need there. I think I will get a pair of
fleece-lined boots for driving that will help keep my toes warm without
having to resort to the cabin heater unless really necessary. I do see
what effect that has on the miles remaining gauge.

Overall, in my admittedly limited testing so far, I'm averaging 4 mi/kW,
so I'm pleased. I've ordered an OBDII dongle for use with LeafSpy to
keep better tabs on it.

Tom, I do indeed have redundant charging options at work, four choices,
actually, within easy walking distance from the office. There is a
backup 3kW charger a mile from my house, but I will next be putting a
240v outlet in the garage for a home charger, too.

Along the route, there are a couple of quick charger locations at two
Walmarts, along with charging at two Nissan dealerships, all near the
highways I would routinely use on my commute.

I really think I've got charging covered with reasonable alternatives
available should my preferred be ICEd or otherwise unavailable. I have
not personally tested in our coldest weather, but I think there's
sufficient reserve for this to work, and there's always an ICE for
backup, but I'm adventurous enough to want to avoid that unless
absolutely necessary.

The biggest problem I find with the Leaf so far is it's so quiet I often
am exceeding the speed limit without recognizing just how fast I'm
going. I will learn to cope.

Best regards, -- Cal Frye,
www.calfrye.com /Be an Internet Sceptic/ Stop. Think. Connect.
www.stopthinkconnect.org - Be at least as safe on the Internet as you
are crossing the street!

"Good generally conquers evil. Unless, of course, good is stupid."


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Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[tomw via EV]

/"Don't forget about having heat and defrost on. At an average city speed of
12mph, those accessories eat up quite a bit of power."/

That's the main effect. Those are constant power loads so the energy per
mile consumed increases with decreasing speed. A graph of total energy per
mile the vehicle uses, traction plus these constant power loads is a
somewhat U-shaped curve, increasing greatly at low speeds due to the
constant power loads, and increasing again a very high speeds due to
increasing traction power.  On my car there is a fairly broad "sweet spot"
centered around 40-45 mph. Plus all the re-acceleration on hills. I can
easily believe energy consumption is that high.

More on topic...When you scope out charging options Cal keep in mind that
you need redundancy. You have to be able to get to work each day, so you
can't afford to place all your bets on one or two EVSE or outlets that may
not be available, may not be working, or may go away.  I think I would use
the light rail if it doesn't require fairly long walks in Cleveland winters. 
I'd also consider a Volt since your gas consumption and carbon emissions
would be small for such a commute, especially if you get to charge at work
much of the time.

My car is a conversion, but it has about 80 mile range like the Leaf, and
I've been driving it for over 7 years as my main car.  I've never been
stuck, but that's because I always have a back up plan for charging when I
drive far enough away that I must charge to get home.

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

Not a typo. 25-30 mph with lots of hills and stop and go takes about 
350-450 wh / mile. Going 40 mph on hwy 99 with few stops gets as low as 
200 wh /mile. Going 60 mph on I5 is some where around 300 wh / mile. 
These numbers are undocumented, though I've observed them many times 
while driving.


Don't forget about having heat and defrost on. At an average city speed 
of 12mph, those accessories eat up quite a bit of power.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc:
Sent: 29-Nov-16 4:38:01 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?


 You will probably get better mileage than I
 since you will have a significant portion on freeway
 whereas most of my driving is stop & go at 25-30 mph.


Huh???  Is that a typo?

AN EV going stop and go at 30 MPH can get more than double the range of 
an

EV going at freeway speeds.

Bob, WB4AOPR

-- Original Message --
From: "Cal Frye via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc:
Sent: 28-Nov-16 7:05:20 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?


Hi, folks,

I just got a new job, which is going to have me making changes.
So far, my commute has been adequately met by my GEM e2.

Now I'm looking at 42 miles one way, mainly freeway with a bit of stop
and go at the end.
I'm thinking that, while this might be pushing it a bit, a 2013+ 
Nissan

Leaf SL might just make it, and I'm liking the pricing I see on used
ones with under 30k miles.

Am I being foolish? What else should I be careful to observe should I
try to buy one?

Thanks!

Best regards,
-- Cal Frye,
  www.calfrye.com <http://www.touchstonehumanists.org/>

"As business replaces civil society, advertising is taking over the
cultural functions that used to be filled by the left. . . . We used 
to

have movements for change; now we have products." -- Thomas Frank.
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[Willie McKemie via EV]

Avoiding braking under all conditions is crucial for efficiency.  As you
know.  "Stop and go" MAY mean lots of braking.

On Nov 29, 2016 6:38 PM, "Robert Bruninga via EV"  wrote:

> > You will probably get better mileage than I
> > since you will have a significant portion on freeway
> > whereas most of my driving is stop & go at 25-30 mph.
>
> Huh???  Is that a typo?
>
> AN EV going stop and go at 30 MPH can get more than double the range of an
> EV going at freeway speeds.
>
> Bob, WB4AOPR
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Cal Frye via EV" 
> To: ev@lists.evdl.org
> Cc:
> Sent: 28-Nov-16 7:05:20 PM
> Subject: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?
>
> >Hi, folks,
> >
> >I just got a new job, which is going to have me making changes.
> >So far, my commute has been adequately met by my GEM e2.
> >
> >Now I'm looking at 42 miles one way, mainly freeway with a bit of stop
> >and go at the end.
> >I'm thinking that, while this might be pushing it a bit, a 2013+ Nissan
> >Leaf SL might just make it, and I'm liking the pricing I see on used
> >ones with under 30k miles.
> >
> >Am I being foolish? What else should I be careful to observe should I
> >try to buy one?
> >
> >Thanks!
> >
> >Best regards,
> >-- Cal Frye,
> >  www.calfrye.com 
> >
> >"As business replaces civil society, advertising is taking over the
> >cultural functions that used to be filled by the left. . . . We used to
> >have movements for change; now we have products." -- Thomas Frank.
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> >racing at NEDRA
> >(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
> >
> >
>
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> You will probably get better mileage than I
> since you will have a significant portion on freeway
> whereas most of my driving is stop & go at 25-30 mph.

Huh???  Is that a typo?

AN EV going stop and go at 30 MPH can get more than double the range of an
EV going at freeway speeds.

Bob, WB4AOPR

-- Original Message --
From: "Cal Frye via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc:
Sent: 28-Nov-16 7:05:20 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

>Hi, folks,
>
>I just got a new job, which is going to have me making changes.
>So far, my commute has been adequately met by my GEM e2.
>
>Now I'm looking at 42 miles one way, mainly freeway with a bit of stop
>and go at the end.
>I'm thinking that, while this might be pushing it a bit, a 2013+ Nissan
>Leaf SL might just make it, and I'm liking the pricing I see on used
>ones with under 30k miles.
>
>Am I being foolish? What else should I be careful to observe should I
>try to buy one?
>
>Thanks!
>
>Best regards,
>-- Cal Frye,
>  www.calfrye.com 
>
>"As business replaces civil society, advertising is taking over the
>cultural functions that used to be filled by the left. . . . We used to
>have movements for change; now we have products." -- Thomas Frank.
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>racing at NEDRA
>(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
>
>

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[Marion Hakanson via EV]

Hi Cal,

We purchased a used 2013 LEAF SL, after turning in our leased 2012 SV.  We put 
nearly 48k miles on the 2012 car, and had no problems.  It only needed tires, 
wiper blades, and its scheduled service visits.


We recommend the SL or above models, because these have the heat pump 
heating/cooling system, so using the heater or defroster has very little 
effect on range (we're in Portland, OR, pretty much the same climate as Peri). 
 Given that your commute is pushing the range of the LEAF, you'll regret 
having to live with the old-school heating system (we know, we did so for 42 
months in our 2012 car).


We also recommend you make sure you get one with the L3 charging option, 
because you can take advantage of quick charging stations if you find you need 
to make a side-trip that you hadn't planned on.


Another desirable improvement in the 2013+ SL (or higher) models is a more 
powerful onboard charger.  On the more common L2 public charging stations, 
this can charge twice as fast as the low-end 3.3KW charger, so if you do get 
stuck with a low battery and no L3 stations, you'll be stuck for a shorter 
amount of time.


Last comment:  While my wife's daily commute is 60 miles round trip, she has 
on occasion done 85 miles on a single charge in our 2013 car (not possible in 
the 2012 car).  These were on warm, dry days, and included some light-footed 
driving, such as keeping the freeway speeds at 55 instead of 65.  We suspect 
that, depending on the hills in your area, you could make your round trip 
commute on a single charge on such ideal days if you do some minor 
hypermiling, but catching some hours of L1 charge while you're at work (or a 
10-20 minute top-off at an L3 charger) should get you home year round.


Regards,

Marion



Hi, folks,

I just got a new job, which is going to have me making changes.
So far, my commute has been adequately met by my GEM e2.

Now I'm looking at 42 miles one way, mainly freeway with a bit of stop
and go at the end.
I'm thinking that, while this might be pushing it a bit, a 2013+ Nissan
Leaf SL might just make it, and I'm liking the pricing I see on used
ones with under 30k miles.

Am I being foolish? What else should I be careful to observe should I
try to buy one?

Thanks!

Best regards,
-- Cal Frye,
 www.calfrye.com 

"As business replaces civil society, advertising is taking over the
cultural functions that used to be filled by the left. . . . We used to
have movements for change; now we have products." -- Thomas Frank.
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Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[Seth Rothenberg via EV]

Cal,
I have a 2013 Leaf S
(which I know is not as efficient as an SL)
My commute is 27 to 30 miles depending
on traffic-avoidance maneuvers.

The 24 KWh battery is adequate for me
in Spring, Summer, and Fall.

In the winter, I use more local streets,
I preheat the car and use seat warmers
rather than "air conditioning heat".

I am in a carpool, so I "offer" to drive
the warmest day.

I am discussing whether to buy a 2016 next month.
I would probably lose a bit of money on the trade,
and a 2016 is about a month from becoming
deprecated, so I am really not sure.
The one year that I need next year's car now,
they are not coming out now.


I showed my manager a picture of an outlet
across the parking lot in the same office park.
Clearly, if there is a will, there is a way to convince
the Realty company to do it.   My manager will
ask the CIO to push for it.
The Model 3 might be out before that :-)


One day last week, I had to drive 2 days in a row, with
only Level 1 charging over night...I left the office with 32
miles on the guess guage and 27 to go on Google Maps.

I took local streets  from my office for about the first
10 miles and I followed the 2 dots rule after that,
and I got home with 10 on the guage  (i.e., I saved 8 range miles)
It's not fun to worry so much, but it did work.

I have never gotten stuck, but I have come home on 0
a few times.   I have used DC Quick Charging often,
but it is either 6 miles out of the way to Nissan or $7 nrg.

I hope this helps

Seth

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Re: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?

[Peri Hartman via EV]

You'll need to charge at work in order to make the round trip and, from 
time to time, have some excess for a lunch run-around or detours on the 
way home.


I have a 2011 Leaf and have found it completely reliable and fine. (Some 
gripes, but overall very good.) However, the range decreases 
significantly in winter (Seattle) with the A/C and heat on to keep the 
humidity down. Also the battery in my model is unheated. My range in 
summer is probably about 70+. In winter I get 50ish on a full charge.


You will probably get better mileage than I since you will have a 
significant portion on freeway whereas most of my driving is stop & go 
at 25-30 mph.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Cal Frye via EV" 
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Cc:
Sent: 28-Nov-16 7:05:20 PM
Subject: [EVDL] Leaf recommendations?


Hi, folks,

I just got a new job, which is going to have me making changes.
So far, my commute has been adequately met by my GEM e2.

Now I'm looking at 42 miles one way, mainly freeway with a bit of stop
and go at the end.
I'm thinking that, while this might be pushing it a bit, a 2013+ Nissan
Leaf SL might just make it, and I'm liking the pricing I see on used
ones with under 30k miles.

Am I being foolish? What else should I be careful to observe should I
try to buy one?

Thanks!

Best regards,
-- Cal Frye,
 www.calfrye.com 

"As business replaces civil society, advertising is taking over the
cultural functions that used to be filled by the left. . . . We used to
have movements for change; now we have products." -- Thomas Frank.
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