Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

Kim Jones >>> Evolution is supposed to be "the only game in town" >>> >> >> >> I don't know who you're quoting but it's not me, and it's not true, at >> least not anymore. >> > > > PZ Meyers, Larry Krauss, Dicky Dawkins et al at their > atheist/physicalist talkfests > I’ve never heard of Meyers b

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

> On 29 Nov 2014, at 10:08 am, Richard Ruquist wrote: > > It may just be herding instinct or projection on my part, > but it seems that my chickens are more intelligent > as a group than individually. > > I attribute that to a group mind due to entanglement > in a mind/matter duality. > Rich

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 6:01 PM, wrote: I was talking about your root idea that Evolution cannot detect > consciousness > It can't and neither can we. > (because we can't, I think you said) > The reason isn't because of us, it's just that neither we nor Evolution nor anything else can detect c

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 11/28/2014 7:31 PM, Kim Jones wrote: On 29 Nov 2014, at 1:37 pm, LizR wrote: Hi Brent I seem to remember saying that I thought perhaps consciousness is something like "awareness of yourself and your environment" and asking if you had a better definition a couple of days ago. Did you

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

I don't think there's a single definition of consciousness because I think there are different kinds, as I indicated below. Brent On 11/28/2014 6:37 PM, LizR wrote: Hi Brent I seem to remember saying that I thought perhaps consciousness is something like "awareness of yourself and your envir

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

> On 29 Nov 2014, at 1:37 pm, LizR wrote: > > Hi Brent > > I seem to remember saying that I thought perhaps consciousness is something > like "awareness of yourself and your environment" and asking if you had a > better definition a couple of days ago. Did you reply? I don't recall seeing

Re: Is Dark Energy Gobbling Dark Matter, and Slowing Universe's Expansion?

On 29 November 2014 at 11:59, Richard Ruquist wrote: > I have wondered if space is expanding by adding on more space, keeping the > space of say our galaxy intact. > Or is the actual space within our galaxy getting bigger, along with each > of us. > And if the latter, how would we know.? > > The

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

Hi Brent I seem to remember saying that I thought perhaps consciousness is something like "awareness of yourself and your environment" and asking if you had a better definition a couple of days ago. Did you reply? I don't recall seeing anything. If not - any ideas? On 29 November 2014 at 13:39,

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 11/28/2014 12:53 PM, LizR wrote: On 29 November 2014 at 04:42, John Clark > wrote: Kim Jones: >> Yes but tell me of the examples you have found of Evolution producing intelligence without consciousness. > iPhones. Smart frid

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 11/28/2014 9:55 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 28 Nov 2014, at 04:27, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 11:30 PM, meekerdb > wrote: > More likely we will make an AI that is intelligent, is not conscious like a human with an inner narrative but is

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 11/28/2014 8:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 27 Nov 2014, at 18:49, meekerdb wrote: On 11/27/2014 12:19 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Nov 2014, at 23:34, meekerdb wrote: On 11/26/2014 9:53 AM, John Clark wrote: No that is not fine. I DEFINE intelligence just as everybody else does, the

Re: Is Dark Energy Gobbling Dark Matter, and Slowing Universe's Expansion?

Richard Ruquist wrote: I have wondered if space is expanding by adding on more space, keeping the space of say our galaxy intact. Or is the actual space within our galaxy getting bigger, along with each of us. And if the latter, how would we know.? Richard Space is expanding uniformly. But th

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

It may just be herding instinct or projection on my part, but it seems that my chickens are more intelligent as a group than individually. I attribute that to a group mind due to entanglement in a mind/matter duality. Richard On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 4:56 PM, Kim Jones wrote: > > > > > On 29 Nov

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

I'm with Liz - I suspect that George is using a specific version of entropy that is (say) only applicable for canonical or microcanonical ensembles, and that the second law actually survives because the system is in neither ensemble. But I could be wrong - its been far too many years since I studi

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On Friday, November 28, 2014 6:34:16 PM UTC, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 12:26 PM, > wrote: > > > You've not answered the logic so far >> > > Give me some logic and I'll give you a answer. I thought you were asking > how Evolution produced consciousness but apparently tha

Re: Is Dark Energy Gobbling Dark Matter, and Slowing Universe's Expansion?

I have wondered if space is expanding by adding on more space, keeping the space of say our galaxy intact. Or is the actual space within our galaxy getting bigger, along with each of us. And if the latter, how would we know.? Richard On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 5:12 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: > LizR w

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 29 November 2014 at 06:04, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 27 Nov 2014, at 22:35, LizR wrote: > > On 26 November 2014 at 22:52, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> You need consciousness to develop intelligence, and you need intelligence >> to develop competence. >> > > IN my humble opinion you don't need

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

Is this a violation of the 2nd law, or is it an outcome of the 2nd law that doesn't take the expected form? (I would expect a violation of the law to involve something anti-entropic going on, which would look to us like time running backwards). On 29 November 2014 at 10:48, George wrote: > Than

Re: Is Dark Energy Gobbling Dark Matter, and Slowing Universe's Expansion?

LizR wrote: The point is that galaxies should be expanding in relation to bound systems like stars and the solar system, in a similar manner to the universe though for a different reason (so almost certainly not at the same rate). And that should be visible as we look back in time. So it's an

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

> On 29 Nov 2014, at 2:42 am, John Clark wrote: > > Kim Jones: > >>> >> Yes but tell me of the examples you have found of Evolution producing >>> >> intelligence without consciousness. >> >> > iPhones. Smart fridges. Self-driving cars. Computers. Space probes etc. >> > etc. > > If you be

Re: Quantum Mechanics Violation of the Second Law

Thank you Liz, Bruce and John for your comments. I am grateful that you are forcing me to explain myself in simple terms, and this is exactly what I need to do. I am definitely not an expert in this field. I consider myself more like a student and I am eager for constructive and informed feedba

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 29 November 2014 at 04:42, John Clark wrote: > Kim Jones: > > >> Yes but tell me of the examples you have found of Evolution producing >>> intelligence without consciousness. >>> >> >> > iPhones. Smart fridges. Self-driving cars. Computers. Space probes etc. >> etc. >> > > If you believe all t

Re: Is Dark Energy Gobbling Dark Matter, and Slowing Universe's Expansion?

The point is that galaxies should be expanding in relation to bound systems like stars and the solar system, in a similar manner to the universe though for a different reason (so almost certainly not at the same rate). And that should be visible as we look back in time. So it's an acid test for thi

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 12:55 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> And having no facts that must be fitted to theory is why the profession >> of consciousness theoretician is so incredibly easy and why they are so >> common on the internet. However it's hard as hell to find a good >> intelligence theory b

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 12:26 PM, wrote: > You've not answered the logic so far > Give me some logic and I'll give you a answer. I thought you were asking how Evolution produced consciousness but apparently that's not the question you wanted answered. Maybe I missed it but as far as I can tell

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

Bruno, It occurred to me that if consciousness is entirely classical- no quantum effects- then perhaps consciousness on occurs in one world. Or in general if most natural processes are classical, then we are mostly in one world, maybe with a little fuzziness. Richard On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 11:37

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 28 Nov 2014, at 04:27, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 11:30 PM, meekerdb wrote: > More likely we will make an AI that is intelligent, is not conscious like a human with an inner narrative but is conscious in some other way which will be very difficult for us to recognize.

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On Friday, November 28, 2014 4:37:40 PM UTC, John Clark wrote: > > On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 4:43 AM, > wrote: > > > Let's say there are two individuals, one seems to be normal in that >> there is no history of injuries to the head. While the other individual >> fell off a tricycle and ended up h

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 27 Nov 2014, at 22:35, LizR wrote: On 26 November 2014 at 22:52, Bruno Marchal wrote: You need consciousness to develop intelligence, and you need intelligence to develop competence. IN my humble opinion you don't need consciousness to develop intelligence. Keep in mind that I disti

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On 27 Nov 2014, at 18:49, meekerdb wrote: On 11/27/2014 12:19 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 26 Nov 2014, at 23:34, meekerdb wrote: On 11/26/2014 9:53 AM, John Clark wrote: No that is not fine. I DEFINE intelligence just as everybody else does, the ability to find novel solutions to new prob

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On Fri, Nov 28, 2014 at 4:43 AM, wrote: > Let's say there are two individuals, one seems to be normal in that there > is no history of injuries to the head. While the other individual fell off > a tricycle and ended up hospitalized with a head injury. Now let's jump > into the shoes of objective

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

Kim Jones: >> Yes but tell me of the examples you have found of Evolution producing >> intelligence without consciousness. >> > > > iPhones. Smart fridges. Self-driving cars. Computers. Space probes etc. > etc. > If you believe all these things are smart then fine, but what makes you think they'r

Re: Is Dark Energy Gobbling Dark Matter, and Slowing Universe's Expansion?

On Thursday, November 27, 2014 8:49:02 PM UTC, Liz R wrote: > > Still no comment on the fact (if it is a fact) that if galaxies are losing > mass thru dark matter annihilation, they should be expanding. > It's a fact, Bruno's estimate levels are too low at present obviously reasonable & accept

Re: Edge: Myth of A.I.

On Friday, November 28, 2014 3:27:30 AM UTC, John Clark wrote: > > On Wed, Nov 26, 2014 at 11:30 PM, meekerdb > wrote: > > > More likely we will make an AI that is intelligent, is not conscious >> like a human with an inner narrative but is conscious in some other way >> which will be very dif