Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

From: *Brent Meeker* mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> On 6/12/2018 8:25 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: From: *Brent Meeker* mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> An isolated system has energy eigenvalues. But any realistic macroscopic system is only going to conserve energy approximately. I think energy

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On 6/12/2018 8:25 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: From: *Brent Meeker* An isolated system has energy eigenvalues.  But any realistic macroscopic system is only going to conserve energy approximately.  I think energy eigenvalues are found in atoms and maybe molecules.  But larger systems (C60

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On 6/12/2018 8:00 PM, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: * When the experiment ends, that is when the box is opened, the cat might still be alive. AG* Which in the idealization means it didn't evolve. *You can easily imagine the idealized life/death scenarios (by going to the

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

From: *Brent Meeker* mailto:meeke...@verizon.net>> An isolated system has energy eigenvalues. But any realistic macroscopic system is only going to conserve energy approximately. I think energy eigenvalues are found in atoms and maybe molecules. But larger systems (C60 Bucky balls?) tend

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 3:04:37 AM UTC, Bruce wrote: > > From: > > > > > *So if one chooses a basis where the cat is simultaneously alive and dead, > is this a problem for QM? AG * >> >> >> No problem for QM -- one does it all the time. It might not be the most >> useful basis, but

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

From: mailto:agrayson2...@gmail.com>> *So if one chooses a basis where the cat is simultaneously alive and dead, is this a problem for QM? AG * No problem for QM -- one does it all the time. It might not be the most useful basis, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible. *Since you

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 2:38:00 AM UTC, Brent wrote: > > > > On 6/12/2018 7:24 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 12:50:05 AM UTC, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 6/12/2018 4:45 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 12:05:34 AM UTC, Bruce wrote: > > From: > > > > On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 11:36:07 PM UTC, Bruce wrote: >> >> From: >> >> >> On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 11:03:28 PM UTC, Bruce wrote: >>> >>> From: >>> >>> >>> *Doesn't the superposition of states used in the

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On 6/12/2018 7:24 PM, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 12:50:05 AM UTC, Brent wrote: On 6/12/2018 4:45 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 11:04:21 PM UTC, Brent wrote: On 6/12/2018 3:18 PM, agrays...@gmail.com

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On Wednesday, June 13, 2018 at 12:50:05 AM UTC, Brent wrote: > > > > On 6/12/2018 4:45 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 11:04:21 PM UTC, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 6/12/2018 3:18 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On 6/12/2018 6:57 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote: On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 7:05:34 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote: From: > * So if one chooses a basis where the cat is simultaneously alive and dead, is this a problem for QM? AG * No problem for QM -- one does it all the

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

From: *Lawrence Crowell* > On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 7:05:34 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote: No problem for QM -- one does it all the time. It might not be the most useful basis, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible. In general, however, one

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 7:05:34 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote: > > From: > > > >> > > * So if one chooses a basis where the cat is simultaneously alive and > dead, is this a problem for QM? AG * > > > No problem for QM -- one does it all the time. It might not be the most > useful basis, but that

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On 6/12/2018 4:45 PM, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 11:04:21 PM UTC, Brent wrote: On 6/12/2018 3:18 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 10:14:56 PM UTC, Brent wrote: On 6/12/2018 3:02 PM, agrays...@gmail.com

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On Monday, June 11, 2018 at 4:53:45 AM UTC-5, Bruce wrote: > > From: Bruno Marchal > > > On 11 Jun 2018, at 03:41, Bruce Kellett < > bhke...@optusnet.com.au > wrote: > > From: > > > > On Sunday, June 10, 2018 at 11:11:09 PM UTC, Bruce wrote: >> >> From: >> >> >> Later, hopefully soon, I will

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On 6/12/2018 4:21 PM, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 11:03:28 PM UTC, Bruce wrote: From: > *Doesn't the superposition of states used in the cat problem. or indeed any quantum superposition, requires the system being measured to be

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

From: mailto:agrayson2...@gmail.com>> On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 11:36:07 PM UTC, Bruce wrote: From: On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 11:03:28 PM UTC, Bruce wrote: From: *Doesn't the superposition of states used in the cat problem. or indeed any

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 11:36:07 PM UTC, Bruce wrote: > > From: > > > > On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 11:03:28 PM UTC, Bruce wrote: >> >> From: >> >> >> *Doesn't the superposition of states used in the cat problem. or indeed >>> any quantum superposition, requires the system being

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 11:04:21 PM UTC, Brent wrote: > > > > On 6/12/2018 3:18 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 10:14:56 PM UTC, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 6/12/2018 3:02 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

From: mailto:agrayson2...@gmail.com>> On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 11:03:28 PM UTC, Bruce wrote: From: *Doesn't the superposition of states used in the cat problem. or indeed any quantum superposition, requires the system being measured to be isolated? AG *

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 11:03:28 PM UTC, Bruce wrote: > > From: > > > > *Doesn't the superposition of states used in the cat problem. or indeed >> any quantum superposition, requires the system being measured to be >> isolated? AG * >> > > *As I see it, the total system represented by the

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On 6/12/2018 3:31 PM, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: *As I see it, the total system represented by the wf  ( (Alive, Undecayed) + (Dead, Decayed) ), leaving out Dirac symbols, must be isolated if it's regarded as a superposition. If so, this implies the cat is also isolated. AG * Being

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On 6/12/2018 3:18 PM, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 10:14:56 PM UTC, Brent wrote: On 6/12/2018 3:02 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 8:20:00 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

From: mailto:agrayson2...@gmail.com>> *Doesn't the superposition of states used in the cat problem. or indeed any quantum superposition, requires the system being measured to be isolated? AG * *As I see it, the total system represented by the wf ( (Alive, Undecayed) + (Dead,

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 10:18:42 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 10:14:56 PM UTC, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 6/12/2018 3:02 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 8:20:00 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: >>> >>>

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 10:14:56 PM UTC, Brent wrote: > > > > On 6/12/2018 3:02 PM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 8:20:00 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 6:13:04 PM UTC, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On 6/12/2018 3:02 PM, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 8:20:00 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 6:13:04 PM UTC, Brent wrote: On 6/12/2018 10:51 AM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 8:20:00 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 6:13:04 PM UTC, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 6/12/2018 10:51 AM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 5:28:05 PM UTC, Brent wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 6:13:04 PM UTC, Brent wrote: > > > > On 6/12/2018 10:51 AM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 5:28:05 PM UTC, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 6/12/2018 1:01 AM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> *The bottom line, or if you will, the 800

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On 6/12/2018 10:51 AM, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 5:28:05 PM UTC, Brent wrote: On 6/12/2018 1:01 AM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: *The bottom line, or if you will, the 800 pound elephant in the room, is that the macro entities which are included

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On Tuesday, June 12, 2018 at 5:28:05 PM UTC, Brent wrote: > > > > On 6/12/2018 1:01 AM, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > *The bottom line, or if you will, the 800 pound elephant in the room, is > that the macro entities which are included in the seminal superposition of > states for

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On 6/12/2018 1:01 AM, agrayson2...@gmail.com wrote: *The bottom line, or if you will, the 800 pound elephant in the room, is that the macro entities which are included in the seminal superposition of states for decoherence, are in thermal equilibrium with their environments, constantly

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

> Il 12 giugno 2018 alle 10.01 agrayson2...@gmail.com ha scritto: > > > > On Monday, June 11, 2018 at 9:12:41 AM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > > > On Sunday, June 10, 2018 at 4:36:37 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com > > wrote: > > > > > > >

Re: Schrodinger's Cat vs Decoherence Theory

On Monday, June 11, 2018 at 9:12:41 AM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Sunday, June 10, 2018 at 4:36:37 PM UTC, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> Later, hopefully soon, I will make the case that Schrodinger's Cat >> implies that Decoherence Theory false, since the former shows the