Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Wed, Oct 23, 2019 at 12:22 AM John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 6:07 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > > >> That statement is worse than false, you're talking logical nonsense. >>> The photograph itself contains which way information, if the photo has no >>> interference pattern then you

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

> Il 22 ottobre 2019 alle 10.14 Philip Thrift ha > scritto: > > "Nor do they demonstrate ‘temporal nonlocality’ in their ‘delayed choice’ > form, beyond standard EPR correlations." > > or > > "Nor do they demonstrate ‘temporal nonlocality’ in their ‘delayed choice’ > form beyon

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 6:07 PM Bruce Kellett wrote: >> That statement is worse than false, you're talking logical nonsense. The >> photograph itself contains which way information, if the photo has no >> interference pattern then you know the photon went through one and only one >> slit, and if

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Monday, October 21, 2019 at 5:42:46 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > Here's a good paper analyzing the experiment and showing it's entirely > explained just by the non-local correlation which is exemplified in the > effect of the space-like measurement choice. > > https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/pap

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 1:41 AM John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 6:24 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > > *> It seems that you think you will just see Young's interference fringes >> whatever you do *after* the record is made at the screen. But that is >> false,* >> > > Like hell it is! Do

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 9:42 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > Here's a good paper analyzing the experiment and showing it's entirely > explained just by the non-local correlation which is exemplified in the > effect of the space-like measuremen

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/21/2019 3:07 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 1:41 AM John Clark > wrote: On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 6:24 PM Bruce Kellett mailto:bhkellet...@gmail.com>> wrote: /> It seems that you think you will just see Young's interfe

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tue, Oct 22, 2019 at 1:41 AM John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 6:24 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > > *> It seems that you think you will just see Young's interference fringes >> whatever you do *after* the record is made at the screen. But that is >> false,* >> > > Like hell it is! Do

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/21/2019 7:40 AM, John Clark wrote: On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 6:24 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: /> It seems that you think you will just see Young's interference fringes whatever you do *after* the record is made at the screen. But that is false,/ Li

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 6:24 PM Bruce Kellett wrote: *> It seems that you think you will just see Young's interference fringes > whatever you do *after* the record is made at the screen. But that is > false,* > Like hell it is! Do you actually think Zeilinger and other experimental physicists cl

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 4:29 AM 'scerir' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > Il 20 ottobre 2019 alle 17.57 smitra < smi...@zonnet.nl> ha scritto: > > Yes, Bruce is right on this point of the interference being detectable > after the photons hitting the screen by transf

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Mon, Oct 21, 2019 at 1:19 AM John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 5:57 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote > > >> Because the choice to erase or not to erase is delayed until long >>> after the photon has passed the slit, it could be made a billion years >>> after it passed the slit, and the deci

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/20/2019 8:29 AM, smitra wrote: On 19-10-2019 21:28, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: On 10/19/2019 8:49 AM, smitra wrote: On 19-10-2019 00:33, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: On 10/18/2019 1:04 PM, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 3:39 PM 'Brent Meeker'

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

> Il 20 ottobre 2019 alle 17.57 smitra < smi...@zonnet.nl > mailto:smi...@zonnet.nl > ha scritto: > > Yes, Bruce is right on this point of the interference being detectable > after the photons hitting the screen by transferring the which way > information to the spins of electron

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 19-10-2019 23:57, Bruce Kellett wrote: On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 8:32 AM John Clark wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 6:31 PM Bruce Kellett wrote: _> if you erase or not the welcher weg information 'before' the signal photon hits the screen, then presumably some, presently unknown physics, cou

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 19-10-2019 21:28, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: On 10/19/2019 8:49 AM, smitra wrote: On 19-10-2019 00:33, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: On 10/18/2019 1:04 PM, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 3:39 PM 'Brent Meeker' wrote: _ > I want to know how the AI di

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 5:57 PM Bruce Kellett wrote >> Because the choice to erase or not to erase is delayed until long after >> the photon has passed the slit, it could be made a billion years after it >> passed the slit, and the decision could be made one nanosecond before the >> photon hit th

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/19/2019 2:31 PM, John Clark wrote: As long as the photon is still in transit if you erase the which way information you see a interference pattern and if you don't erase that information there is no interference pattern. And that is seriously weird and seriously interesting. If you wa

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Sun, Oct 20, 2019 at 8:32 AM John Clark wrote: > On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 6:31 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > > >> *> if you erase or not the welcher weg information 'before' the signal photon hits the screen, then presumably some, presently unknown physics, could send this information

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 6:31 PM Bruce Kellett wrote: *> I see, Deutsch was testing the idea that it was consciousness that >>> collapsed the wave function. But, apart from a few flirtations with the >>> idea, none has ever taken that seriously. It is certainly not part of the >>> Copenhagen Inter

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/19/2019 8:49 AM, smitra wrote: On 19-10-2019 00:33, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: On 10/18/2019 1:04 PM, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 3:39 PM 'Brent Meeker' wrote: _ > I want to know how the AI did the measurement_ The same way a human does. In that cas

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 19-10-2019 00:33, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: On 10/18/2019 1:04 PM, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 3:39 PM 'Brent Meeker' wrote: _ > I want to know how the AI did the measurement_ The same way a human does. In that case it would not be erasable because a huma

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Saturday, October 19, 2019 at 1:06:39 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 16 Oct 2019, at 23:47, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everyth...@googlegroups.com > wrote: > > > > On 10/16/2019 2:05 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:49:12 PM UTC-5, Brent

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

> On 17 Oct 2019, at 23:35, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 11:41 PM John Clark > wrote: > On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 7:53 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > > > The quantum erasure-delayed choice experiments that have been don

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

> On 16 Oct 2019, at 23:47, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 10/16/2019 2:05 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:49:12 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> On 10/16/2019 8:22 AM, John Clark wrote: >>> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 8:00 PM Bruce

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

> On 16 Oct 2019, at 17:43, 'scerir' via Everything List > wrote: > > > "In the delayed choice experiment, the decision whether or not to quantum > erase the "which way" information can be made long after the original photons > hit the screen and make their marks there. So decoherence has s

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

; From: John Clark > To: everything-list > Sent: Tue, Oct 15, 2019 5:14 pm > Subject: Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 1:50 PM 'Brent Meeker' > mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> > wrote: > > > Curiously

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

> On 16 Oct 2019, at 15:45, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 7:23:53 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 14 Oct 2019, at 20:20, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >> > wrote: >> >> Part of the dislike of the MWI is that its proponents assume a purity that >

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/18/2019 1:04 PM, John Clark wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 3:39 PM 'Brent Meeker' > wrote: /> I want to know how the AI did the measurement/ The same way a human does. In that case it would not be erasable because a human being is big and

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Sat, Oct 19, 2019 at 1:39 AM John Clark wrote: > On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 5:35 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > > *> I see, Deutsch was testing the idea that it was consciousness that >> collapsed the wave function. But, apart from a few flirtations with the >> idea, none has ever taken that seriou

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 3:39 PM 'Brent Meeker' < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: * > I want to know how the AI did the measurement* > The same way a human does. > *> and the erasure,* > The same way Lewis and then Wheeler said. *and what consciousness had to do with it? * > The AI's

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/18/2019 7:39 AM, John Clark wrote: Yes but you can't expect to learn anything if you look at the developed photograph and then decide whether to erase the which way information or not. If you decide to erase the information do you imagine you will see the photograph change before your

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Friday, October 18, 2019 at 9:39:41 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 5:35 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > > *> I see, Deutsch was testing the idea that it was consciousness that >> collapsed the wave function. But, apart from a few flirtations with the >> idea, none has e

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 5:35 PM Bruce Kellett wrote: *> I see, Deutsch was testing the idea that it was consciousness that > collapsed the wave function. But, apart from a few flirtations with the > idea, none has ever taken that seriously. It is certainly not part of the > Copenhagen Interpretat

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Friday, October 18, 2019 at 5:18:35 AM UTC-5, Bruce wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 8:16 PM Philip Thrift > wrote: > >> On Friday, October 18, 2019 at 1:36:33 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 6:05:00 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 10/17/2019 2:35

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 8:16 PM Philip Thrift wrote: > On Friday, October 18, 2019 at 1:36:33 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 6:05:00 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>> >>> On 10/17/2019 2:35 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: >>> >>> I think you have misunderstood the experim

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Friday, October 18, 2019 at 1:36:33 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 6:05:00 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 10/17/2019 2:35 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: >> >> I think you have misunderstood the experiments. The interference pattern >> is present if t

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 6:20 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > On 10/17/2019 8:38 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 2:08 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> On 10/17/2019 4:34 PM

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/17/2019 8:38 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 2:08 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 10/17/2019 4:34 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 10:05 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List mailto:

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Thursday, October 17, 2019 at 6:05:00 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/17/2019 2:35 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > I think you have misunderstood the experiments. The interference pattern > is present if the welcher weg information is erased, whether the erasure > takes place before or af

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 2:08 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > On 10/17/2019 4:34 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 10:05 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> >> But I wonder what

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/17/2019 4:34 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 10:05 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: But I wonder what happens in Carroll's experiment if, after measuring in the left/right basis and noting that two differen

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Fri, Oct 18, 2019 at 10:05 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > But I wonder what happens in Carroll's experiment if, after measuring in > the left/right basis and noting that two different interference patterns > can then be discerned by consider

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/17/2019 2:35 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: I think you have misunderstood the experiments. The interference pattern is present  if the welcher weg information is erased, whether the erasure takes place before or after the photons hit the screen. If the information is not erased, no interfere

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 11:41 PM John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 7:53 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > > *> The quantum erasure-delayed choice experiments that have been done,* >> > > True. > > >> * and discussed by Carroll (in his book and on his blog)* >> > > True. > > * > are entirely

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 7:53 PM Bruce Kellett wrote: *> The quantum erasure-delayed choice experiments that have been done,* > True. > * and discussed by Carroll (in his book and on his blog)* > True. * > are entirely equivalent to Deutsch's thought experiment.* > Bullshit. Where is the int

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Thu, Oct 17, 2019 at 8:51 AM John Clark wrote: > On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 4:49 PM 'Brent Meeker' < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> * > I thought you read Carroll's book. His example shows in what sense >> you can erase the information after the photon has hit the screen.* >> >

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 6:10 PM 'Brent Meeker' v < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: >> you still haven't told me what your best guess is that Deutsch will find > when he develops that all important photographic plate; will he see > interference bands or no interference bands? I've already

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 4:47:43 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/16/2019 2:05 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:49:12 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> >> >> On 10/16/2019 8:22 AM, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 8:00 PM Bruce Kellett

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/16/2019 2:50 PM, John Clark wrote: On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 4:49 PM 'Brent Meeker'  > wrote: /> I thought you read Carroll's book.  His example shows in what sense you can erase the information after the photon has hit the screen./ I

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 4:49 PM 'Brent Meeker' < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > * > I thought you read Carroll's book. His example shows in what sense > you can erase the information after the photon has hit the screen.* > If you wait to erase the which way information until after t

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/16/2019 2:05 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:49:12 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 10/16/2019 8:22 AM, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 8:00 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > I/n the delayed choice experiment, the decision whether or

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 3:49:12 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/16/2019 8:22 AM, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 8:00 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > > > I*n the delayed choice experiment, the decision whether or not to >> quantum erase the "which way" information can b

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/16/2019 8:22 AM, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 8:00 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > I/n the delayed choice experiment, the decision whether or not to quantum erase the "which way" information can be made long after the original photons hi

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

"In the delayed choice experiment, the decision whether or not to quantum erase the "which way" information can be made long after the original photons hit the screen and make their marks there. So decoherence has set in, and any parallel universes have necessarily become different in some way

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 8:00 PM Bruce Kellett wrote: > I*n the delayed choice experiment, the decision whether or not to quantum > erase the "which way" information can be made long after the original > photons hit the screen and make their marks there.* > No. In the delayed choice experiment th

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

human survival and quality of life. If all it turns out to be merely, a code breaker, then, from my pov. meh! -Original Message- From: John Clark To: everything-list Sent: Tue, Oct 15, 2019 5:14 pm Subject: Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 1:50 PM 'Br

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 7:55 PM 'Brent Meeker' < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: *>>> What about the world in which a K40 atom in JKC's blood stream decayed > compared to one in which it didn't?* > >> What about it? > > * > Does it produce another world?* > Do I really have to spell th

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Wednesday, October 16, 2019 at 7:23:53 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 14 Oct 2019, at 20:20, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everyth...@googlegroups.com > wrote: > > Part of the dislike of the MWI is that its proponents assume a purity that > is not an evident virtue of the in

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

> On 16 Oct 2019, at 00:29, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 4:14:39 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 1:50 PM 'Brent Meeker' > wrote: > > > Curiously, Deutsch used a quantum computer in a thought experiment to prove > > multiple worlds. > >

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

> On 15 Oct 2019, at 00:22, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 10/14/2019 2:50 PM, John Clark wrote: >> On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 4:05 PM 'Brent Meeker' >> mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> >> wrote: >> >> >> It's not assumed its concluded based on overwhelming e

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

> On 14 Oct 2019, at 20:20, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > Part of the dislike of the MWI is that its proponents assume a purity that is > not an evident virtue of the intepretation. For example, interpreting the > squared amplitudes as probabilities seems to be assumed, alo

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 6:16:33 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > > On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 5:29:21 PM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> But the path integral is both interpretation of quantum computing - >> https://arxiv.org/abs/quant-ph/0607151 (2006) - and algorithm fo

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 10:10 AM John Clark wrote: > On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:01 PM 'Brent Meeker' < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > *> Well in practice he has to measure them in an orthogonal basis in order >> to erase the welcher weg.* > > > I don't quite see how but apparently

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/15/2019 4:10 PM, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:01 PM 'Brent Meeker'  > wrote: >> Oh for christ sake! As I've said over and over, in Many Worlds a change, any change, is equivalent to a measurement and it does

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 5:29:21 PM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 4:14:39 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 1:50 PM 'Brent Meeker' < >> everyth...@googlegroups.com> wrote: >> >>> >> * > Curiously, Deutsch used a quantum computer

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 6:01 PM 'Brent Meeker' < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> Oh for christ sake! As I've said over and over, in Many Worlds a >> change, any change, is equivalent to a measurement and it doesn't make the >> slightest difference if that change involves consciousn

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 4:14:39 PM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 1:50 PM 'Brent Meeker' < > everyth...@googlegroups.com > wrote: > >> > * > Curiously, Deutsch used a quantum computer in a thought experiment to >> prove multiple worlds.* > > > He did indeed, I read

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/15/2019 1:46 PM, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 6:22 PM 'Brent Meeker'  > wrote: >>This is physics not mathematics, the Born rule isn't derived it's observed, and it's observed to work. /> But then MWI can't claim

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Wed, Oct 16, 2019 at 7:47 AM John Clark wrote: > > Oh for christ sake! As I've said over and over, in Many Worlds a change, > any change, is equivalent to a measurement and it doesn't make the > slightest difference if that change involves consciousness or not. If Brent > Meeker flips a coin a

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/15/2019 2:14 PM, John Clark wrote: On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 1:50 PM 'Brent Meeker'  > wrote: /> Curiously, Deutsch used a quantum computer in a thought experiment to prove multiple worlds./ He did indeed, I read about it 30 years ago in

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 1:50 PM 'Brent Meeker' < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > * > Curiously, Deutsch used a quantum computer in a thought experiment to > prove multiple worlds.* He did indeed, I read about it 30 years ago in Deutsch's book "The Ghost In The Atom" and that was when

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 6:22 PM 'Brent Meeker' < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>This is physics not mathematics, the Born rule isn't derived it's >> observed, and it's observed to work. > > > * > But then MWI can't claim to be simpler and "purer" than CI. * > CI says the laws of phys

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 12:50:53 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/15/2019 10:46 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > Or: I have yet to see any Many Worlds (Carroll's, Everett's, ...) used > > in the actual programming in quantum modeling software. > > > > Where is it? (Surprise me.)

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/15/2019 10:46 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: Or: I have yet to see any Many Worlds (Carroll's, Everett's, ...) used in the actual programming in quantum modeling software. Where is it? (Surprise me.) Curiously, Deutsch used a quantum computer in a thought experiment to prove multiple wo

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 12:26:55 PM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 10:26:15 AM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >> >> On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 6:02:15 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 5:48:58 AM UTC-5,

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 11:06:07 AM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/15/2019 4:08 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > Also see Feynman's Meaning of Probabilities in QM paper. > > > > But there are no probabilities in MWI. > > There are, but you have to put them in there essentially by

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 10:28:09 AM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > > On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 6:08:27 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 6:02:15 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 5:48:58 AM UTC-5

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 10:26:15 AM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > > On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 6:02:15 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 5:48:58 AM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >>> >>> On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 2:24:10 AM UTC-5, Phi

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/15/2019 4:08 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: Also see Feynman's Meaning of Probabilities in QM paper. But there are no probabilities in MWI. There are, but you have to put them in there essentially by slipping the Born rule in the back door. Brent You can't take a probabilistic theory

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 6:08:27 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 6:02:15 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 5:48:58 AM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >>> >>> On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 2:24:10 AM UTC-5, Phili

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 6:02:15 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 5:48:58 AM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >> >> On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 2:24:10 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 6:52:24 PM UTC-5, Lawr

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 6:02:15 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 5:48:58 AM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >> >> On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 2:24:10 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 6:52:24 PM UTC-5, La

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 5:48:58 AM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > > On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 2:24:10 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 6:52:24 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >>> >>> On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 4:44:42 PM UTC-5, Bruce

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tuesday, October 15, 2019 at 2:24:10 AM UTC-5, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 6:52:24 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote: >> >> On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 4:44:42 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 5:38 AM Philip Thrift >>> wrote: >>> On

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 6:52:24 PM UTC-5, Lawrence Crowell wrote: > > On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 4:44:42 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote: >> >> On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 5:38 AM Philip Thrift wrote: >> >>> On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 1:20:39 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: Part of the dislike

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 4:44:42 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 5:38 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > >> On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 1:20:39 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>> >>> Part of the dislike of the MWI is that its proponents assume a purity >>> that is not an evident virt

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/14/2019 3:33 PM, Philip Thrift wrote: On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 5:24:54 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 10/14/2019 2:50 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 7:05 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 10/14/2019 12:00 PM, John Clark wrote:

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 5:24:54 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > > > On 10/14/2019 2:50 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 7:05 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everyth...@googlegroups.com > wrote: > >> On 10/14/2019 12:00 PM, John Clark wrote: >> >> On Mon, Oct 14, 20

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/14/2019 2:50 PM, Bruce Kellett wrote: On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 7:05 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 10/14/2019 12:00 PM, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 2:20 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List mailto:eve

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/14/2019 2:50 PM, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 4:05 PM 'Brent Meeker'  > wrote: >> It's not assumed its concluded based on overwhelming experimental evidence /> But in the theory that's just adding the Born rule on empiri

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 4:05 PM 'Brent Meeker' < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: >> It's not assumed its concluded based on overwhelming experimental > evidence > > * > But in the theory that's just adding the Born rule on empirical > evidence. * > In physics empirical evidence is the

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 7:05 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > On 10/14/2019 12:00 PM, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 2:20 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > *> So it becomes probabi

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 7:05 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > On 10/14/2019 12:00 PM, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 2:20 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > *Part of the dislike o

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Tue, Oct 15, 2019 at 5:38 AM Philip Thrift wrote: > On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 1:20:39 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >> >> Part of the dislike of the MWI is that its proponents assume a purity >> that is not an evident virtue of the intepretation. For example, >> interpreting the squared amplitu

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On 10/14/2019 12:00 PM, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 2:20 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > /Part of the dislike of the MWI is that its proponents assume a purity that is not an evident virtue of the intepretation

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 2:20 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > *Part of the dislike of the MWI is that its proponents assume a purity > that is not an evident virtue of the intepretation. For example, > interpreting the squared amplitudes as probab

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 1:20:39 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: > > Part of the dislike of the MWI is that its proponents assume a purity that > is not an evident virtue of the intepretation. For example, interpreting > the squared amplitudes as probabilities seems to be assumed, along with the

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

On Monday, October 14, 2019 at 8:38:59 AM UTC-5, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Oct 14, 2019 at 9:27 AM Philip Thrift > wrote: > > *> Abstract. Bell’s theorem requires the assumption that hidden variables >> are independent of future measurement settings.* > > > Yes, Bell assumes hidden variable

Re: Something deeply hidden in the forest

Part of the dislike of the MWI is that its proponents assume a purity that is not an evident virtue of the intepretation.  For example, interpreting the squared amplitudes as probabilities seems to be assumed, along with the existence of the preferred basis in which the amplitudes are defined. 

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