subject:"\[FairfieldLife\] Re\: Speaking of homosexuality..."

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 In a message dated 2/25/06 12:35:05 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  The  Bible says it is an abomination for a man to *lay* with  
another
 man  they 
  way he would with a woman. (paraphrased). I think that gets the  
 point across 
  without being too graphic.
 
 I am not a  biblical scholar, but apparently, the bible adds that 
it is
 within gods  grace for a man to *lay* with  a woman in the ways a 
man  
 lays  with another man. 
 
 
 
 There is no sin that can not be  forgiven.


So where is it listed as a sin? Some things would get you stoned or 
banished and some would get you fined. What is the punishment for 
the sin of homosexuality?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 In a message dated 2/25/06 1:11:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  The  Bible says it is an abomination for a man to *lay* with  
 another man  they 
  way he would with a woman. (paraphrased). I think that gets  the  
 point across 
  without being too  graphic.
 
 
 
 That's IT?
 
 Sounds pretty vague to  me.
 
 
 
 
 Shemp That's the only verse, from Leviticus, that I remember  off 
hand. I 
 pretty sure there is more. The Bible wasn't written in legalese as 
a  contract 
 between man and God. Could you imagine if priests and rabbi had to  
be attorneys 
 as well? ROFLMAO!


???Who made the religious laws and who debated them?

ROFLMO back atcha.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, MDixon6569@ wrote:
 
   
  In a message dated 2/25/06 1:10:06 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
  jstein@ writes:
  
  Well,  actually the Hebrew Scriptures are exactly,
  precisely that, as far as  Judaism is concerned.
  
  Have you really never heard of the Covenant  between
  God and His Chosen People?
  
  And as to rabbis being lawyers,  have you never
  heard the provisions of the Covenant, especially
  in  Leviticus, being referred to as the Law?
  
  Yes Judy, a covenant , however I'm referring to the legalese  one 
 would hear 
  in today's laws... the party of the first part shall be referred  
 to as... 
 
 OK, what you said was that it wasn't a *contract*
 between humans and God; but that's what it is, and
 rabbis *do* have to interpret it like lawyers.
 
 As 
  for the men of Sodom  being homosexual? Read it for  yourself 
  Genesis 19:3 thru 9 and Judges 19:22. Yes they were at least  bi-
  sexual because they demanded to have sex with the strangers 
that 
  Lot had  brought to his home for safe keeping that evening. The 
men 
  of Sodom tried to  break into Lot's home to rape the guests and 
  Angels blinded the men of Sodom to  make their escape along with 
  Lot's family.
 
 Let me ask it this way: Do you think they wanted to
 rape Lot's visitors because they were horny?  In
 other words, was the point sexual gratification?


By definition, rape is never about sexual gratification, at least in 
any normal sense.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk 
shempmcgurk@ 
  wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
 wrote:
   
   
   [snip]
   

Rape generally--including heterosexual rape--is not
about sex but about power.
   
   
   Camille Paglia says that's bullshit.  Of couse, she says, rape 
 is 
   about sex.
  
  Camille Paglia is bullshit.
 
 
 She should know: she's a lesbian.


Rape is about sexuality, but not really about sex in the usual sense. 
If it was, then guys would go pay a prostitute for sex rather than 
risk being executed or spending decades behind bars.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  
  Camille Paglia is bullshit.
 
 Judy, this post seems very unlike you, why do you say this?

Uh, because I think she's bullshit?

(Not sure why it seems unlike me.)






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 2/25/06 12:35:05 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  The  Bible says it is an abomination for a man to *lay* with
  another man  they 
  way he would with a woman. (paraphrased). I think that gets the  
  point across 
  without being too graphic.
 
 I am not a  biblical scholar, but apparently, the bible adds 
 that it is within gods  grace for a man to *lay* with  a 
 woman in the ways a man lays  with another man. 
 
 
 
 There is no sin that can not be  forgiven.

There is no sin, period. It's an invention of those
who cannot accept themselves and others.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/26/06 6:17:40 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
According to the Bible, they didn't want to have toshare their 
  prosperity with every stranger who camealong.I suspect they could 
  have found other means, but rapewas a pretty effective threat, and, as I 
  said, a commonmeans of doing so at that time.Plus which, they 
  probably would have enjoyed the actualintimidation and humiliation of the 
  strangers.Rape generally--including heterosexual rape--is notabout 
  sex but about power.

I re read the story ofLot and found nothing about the 
people of Sodom not wanting to share their prosperity with anybody. Perhaps just 
the opposite. The crowd expected they Angels share themselves with the men and 
boys of Sodom while staying in their city.In fact the two angels that came 
were traveling and only intended to spend the night in the town square and Lot 
insisted they come to his home where he prepared a feast for them and they would 
be able to leave in the morningand be on their way as earlyas they 
wanted. In fact when the crowd demanded to "know" or have sex with the two 
angels andLot refused and offered his virgin daughters instead, the 
crowd became furious andtold Lot he was an outsider living among 
them and had no right totell them what they could have or not have. The 
point of the story was God had been told the people of Sodom and Gomorra were 
wicked in every way and He wanted to see for himself. Now I'll 
agree,thatdepriving hospitality to traveling strangerscould have 
been looked upon as wicked or unkind but remember, they were wicked in every 
way. And Laviticus 18:22 describes homosexuality as an abomination in the 
eyes of God. Also it says else where in the Bible that God took the land that he 
gave to the Jews away from other people that had defiled themselves 
through such behaviors. And God commanded that Jews not do the same things or he 
would take the land from them.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/26/06 6:48:11 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Christ. 
  What Christ is saying is that the people of a town that refuses his 
  message  are in far worse condition because the message was 
  offered and rejected  where as it was never offered to the 
  Sodomites who never rejected it.Of course, but why did Jesus 
  choose Sodom for thecomparison? He didn't just pick it out of a 
  hat;

Exactly! Are there any other towns other than Sodom and 
Gomorra that were totally destroyed by God with fire and brimstone mentioned in 
the Bible? It was the ideal example that Jesus was trying to impress on his 
disciples. God's judgemnet.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 In a message dated 2/26/06 6:17:40 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 According to the Bible, they didn't want to have to
 share their  prosperity with every stranger who came
 along.
 
 I suspect they could  have found other means, but rape
 was a pretty effective threat, and, as I  said, a common
 means of doing so at that time.
 
 Plus which, they  probably would have enjoyed the actual
 intimidation and humiliation of the  strangers.
 
 Rape generally--including heterosexual rape--is not
 about  sex but about power.
 
 I re read the story of Lot and found nothing about the  people of 
 Sodom not wanting to share their prosperity with anybody.

Behold, this was the guilt of your sister Sodom: she and her 
daughters had arrogance, abundant food, and careless ease, but she 
did not help the poor and needy. Thus they were haughty and committed 
abominations before Me. Therefore I removed them when I saw it. 
(Ezekiel 16:49-50)

In other words, the abominations were secondary.
In becoming arrogant and selfish, they separated
themselves from God and *as a result* descended into
immorality.

Question for you: Which do you think is more immoral,
being homosexual, or raping strangers? 




 Perhaps just  the opposite. The 
 crowd expected they Angels share themselves with the men and  boys 
of Sodom 
 while staying in their city. In fact the two angels that came  were 
traveling 
 and only intended to spend the night in the town square and Lot  
insisted they 
 come to his home where he prepared a feast for them and they would  
be able to 
 leave in the morning and be on their way as early as they  wanted. 
In fact 
 when the crowd demanded to know or have sex with the two  angels 
and Lot 
 refused and offered his virgin daughters instead, the  crowd  
became furious and 
 told Lot he was an outsider living among  them and had no right to 
tell them 
 what they could have or not have. The  point of the story was God 
had been told 
 the people of Sodom and Gomorra were  wicked in every way and He 
wanted to see 
 for himself. Now I'll  agree,that depriving hospitality to 
traveling strangers 
 could have  been looked upon as wicked or unkind but remember, they 
were 
 wicked in every  way. And Laviticus 18:22 describes homosexuality  
as an 
 abomination in the  eyes of God. Also it says else where in the 
Bible that God took the 
 land that he  gave to the Jews away from  other people that had 
defiled 
 themselves  through such behaviors. And God commanded that Jews not 
do the same 
 things or he  would take the land from them.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 In a message dated 2/26/06 6:48:11 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 Christ.  What Christ is saying is that the people of a town that  
 refuses his  message 
  are in far worse condition because the message was  offered  and 
 rejected 
  where as it was never offered to the  Sodomites who never 
rejected  
 it.
 
 Of course, but why did Jesus  choose Sodom for the
 comparison?  He didn't just pick it out of a  hat;
 
 Exactly! Are there any other towns other than Sodom and  Gomorra
 that were totally destroyed by God with fire and brimstone 
 mentioned in  the Bible? It was the ideal example that Jesus was 
 trying to impress on his  disciples. God's judgemnet.

That was certainly a factor: This is how God punishes
people who are so arrogant they are deaf to God's Word.

But the Hebrew Scriptures are full of tales of such
punishments of one unpleasant, violent sort or another.

Jesus chose the destruction of Sodom because it worked
in three respects: a punishment meted out to a *town*,
the comparative severity of the punishment, *and* the
specific sin for which it was punished.

If you want to insist that Sodom was punished for the
the sin of homosexuality, the force of the analogy is
greatly weakened because the sins wouldn't be similar.

Jesus was nothing if not precise in his analogies and
metaphors.  That's why they're so powerful.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/27/06 9:29:23 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
But the 
  Hebrew Scriptures are full of tales of suchpunishments of one unpleasant, 
  violent sort or another.Jesus chose the destruction of Sodom because 
  it workedin three respects: a punishment meted out to a *town*,the 
  comparative severity of the punishment, *and* thespecific sin for which it 
  was punished.If you want to insist that Sodom was punished for 
  thethe sin of homosexuality, the force of the analogy isgreatly 
  weakened because the sins wouldn't be similar.Jesus was nothing if not 
  precise in his analogies andmetaphors. That's why they're so 
  powerful.

Judy can youfind something specific that I said 
regarding this whole thread that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed *only* 
for homosexuality. The Story of Lot specifically says the Lord told 
Abraham, "I have heard that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are extremely evil 
and everything they do is wicked. I am going down to see whether or not these 
reports are true then will know." Now couple this with Leviticus 18:22 "Do 
not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin". Surely the act of raping or 
wanting to molest the strangers is an act of homosexuality whether it is for 
pleasure or exhorting power. Either way, it is an abominable act and considered 
sinful. The actions of homosexuality are forbidden by God. And I believe 
the whole purpose of this thread was somebody had asked if there was anything in 
scripture that forbid homosexuality and if so what and where. I have mentioned 
several places in the Bible where homosexuality is considered a sin and should 
not be practiced.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/27/06 1:56:44 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What's 
  the punishment for this "abomination?" Failing to observe the Sabbath 
  (always Saturday, sorry non-7th-dayers) is punishable by being stoned or 
  banished. What's the set punishment for homosexuality in the 
  bible?

Do your own rersearch





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-27 Thread Patrick Gillam

--- authfriend wrote:

 --- anonyff wrote:
 
  --- authfriend wrote:
   
   Camille Paglia is bullshit.
  
  Judy, this post seems very unlike you, why do you say this?
 
 Uh, because I think she's bullshit?
 
 (Not sure why it seems unlike me.)

I haven't analyzed your posts, Judy, but I would venture 
that if I did, I'd find most have a beginning, a middle 
and an end: Camille Paglia is bullshit because she's 
wrong. Every study of rape finds it's an act of violent 
control. For Paglia to say rape is an act of sex is like 
saying head-on collisions are an alternative way to 
park one's car. 

To simply say she's bullshit and walk away is kind of 
pugilis interruptus, you know what I mean?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 In a message dated 2/27/06 9:29:23 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 But the  Hebrew Scriptures are full of tales of such
 punishments of one unpleasant,  violent sort or another.
 
 Jesus chose the destruction of Sodom because  it worked
 in three respects: a punishment meted out to a *town*,
 the  comparative severity of the punishment, *and* the
 specific sin for which it  was punished.
 
 If you want to insist that Sodom was punished for  the
 the sin of homosexuality, the force of the analogy is
 greatly  weakened because the sins wouldn't be similar.
 
 Jesus was nothing if not  precise in his analogies and
 metaphors.  That's why they're so  powerful.
 
 Judy  can you find something specific that I said  regarding this
 whole thread that  Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed *only* for 
 homosexuality.

I don't believe I suggested you said anything to that
effect.

You *did* cite the story of Sodom as evidence that God
really, really doesn't like homosexuality, however.

 The Story of Lot specifically says the Lord told  
 Abraham, I have heard that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are 
 extremely evil  and everything they do is wicked. I am going down 
 to see whether or not these  reports are true then will know. 
 Now couple this with Leviticus 18:22 Do  not practice 
 homosexuality; it is a detestable sin.

(Note that there are significant scholarly disputes
over the meaning of the term here translated 
detestable sin.)

 Surely the act of raping
 or  wanting to molest the strangers is an act of homosexuality 
 whether it is for  pleasure or exhorting power.

Homosexuality has two different meanings: homosexual
acts, and sexual preference.  And the former, as you
note, takes two forms.

Homosexual acts between two people of homosexual
preference are engaged in for pleasure and, often,
out of deep emotional feelings of love, just as with
heterosexuals.

Homosexual acts between two people of *heterosexual*
preference are engaged in for many different reasons,
including ritualistic performance, stimulating a
jaded sexual appetite, and for purposes of
intimidation and humiliation, among others.

Now, given a loving, beneficent God, which type of
homosexuality do you think He would be most
opposed to?  Or do you think He would condemn all
of them as equally detestable in His sight?








 Either way, it is 
 an abominable act and considered  sinful.




 The actions of 
 homosexuality are forbidden  by God. And I believe  the whole 
purpose of this 
 thread was somebody had asked if there was anything in  scripture 
that forbid 
 homosexuality and if so what and where. I have mentioned  several 
places in the 
 Bible where homosexuality is considered a sin and should  not be 
practiced.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 In a message dated 2/27/06 1:56:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 What's  the punishment for this abomination? Failing to 
 observe the Sabbath (always Saturday, sorry non-7th-dayers) 
 is punishable by being stoned or banished. What's the set 
 punishment for homosexuality in the bible?
 
 Do your own rersearch

I seem to remember that in Hebrews 16:4 the
punishment for being uptight about *anything*
related to sex was to reincarnate in a place
and time where people argue endlessly about
such things on something the prophets called
the Intern-aught or a term similar to that
one. The image was of being interned up to 
one's aught (this word has been suggested by
Biblical scholars to mean ears) in shit.
This fate was generally considered to be worse 
than going to Hell. In Hell at least there was
variety, and occasionally a sense of humor.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-27 Thread Rick Archer

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...





on 2/27/06 10:08 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

In a message dated 2/27/06 9:29:23 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the Hebrew Scriptures are full of tales of 
such punishments of one unpleasant, violent sort or another.

Jesus chose the destruction of Sodom because it worked in three respects: a 
punishment meted out to a *town*, the comparative severity of the 
punishment, *and* the specific sin for which it was punished.

If you want to insist that Sodom was punished for the the sin of 
homosexuality, the force of the analogy is greatly weakened because the 
sins wouldn't be similar.

Jesus was nothing if not precise in his analogies and metaphors. That's 
why they're so powerful. Judy can you find something specific that I said 
regarding this whole thread that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed *only* 
for homosexuality. The Story of Lot specifically says the Lord told Abraham, 
I have heard that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are extremely evil and 
everything they do is wicked. I am going down to see whether or not these 
reports are true then will know. Now couple this with Leviticus 18:22 Do 
not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin. Surely the act of 
raping or wanting to molest the strangers is an act of homosexuality whether 
it is for pleasure or exhorting power. Either way, it is an abominable act 
and considered sinful.

According to the Bible:

Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people 
who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that homosexuality is an 
abominaton according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any 
circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr.Laura penned by a US 
resident and also posted on the Internet:-


Dear Dr. Laura, Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding 
God's Law.

I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that 
knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the 
homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 
clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice 
from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow 
them-

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a 
pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They 
claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b ) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 
21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her 
period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is,how do I 
tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, 
provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine 
claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? 
Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 
clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him 
myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an 
abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I 
don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a 
defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my 
vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around 
their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How 
should they die?

i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me 
unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different 
crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two 
different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse 
and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of 
getting the whole town together to stone them?(Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we 
just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people 
who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can 
help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and 
unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.






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[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 on 2/27/06 10:08 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
  In a message dated 2/27/06 9:29:23 A.M. Central Standard Time,
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the  Hebrew Scriptures are full of tales of
  such punishments of one unpleasant,  violent sort or another.
  
  Jesus chose the destruction of Sodom because  it worked in three 
respects: a
  punishment meted out to a *town*, the  comparative severity of 
the
  punishment, *and* the specific sin for which it  was punished.
  
  If you want to insist that Sodom was punished for  the the sin of
  homosexuality, the force of the analogy is greatly  weakened 
because the
  sins wouldn't be similar.
  
  Jesus was nothing if not  precise in his analogies and 
metaphors.  That's
  why they're so  powerful.

(Um, the following was written by MDixon, not me.)

 Judy  can you find something specific that I said
  regarding this whole thread that  Sodom and Gomorrah were 
destroyed *only*
  for homosexuality. The Story of Lot specifically says the Lord 
told Abraham,
  I have heard that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are 
extremely evil and
  everything they do is wicked. I am going down to see whether or 
not these
  reports are true then will know.  Now couple this with 
Leviticus 18:22 Do
  not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin. Surely the 
act of
  raping or wanting to molest the strangers is an act of 
homosexuality whether
  it is for pleasure or exhorting power. Either way, it is an 
abominable act
  and considered sinful.
  
 According to the Bible:
 
 Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice 
to people
 who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that 
homosexuality is an
 abominaton according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in 
any
 circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr.Laura penned by 
a US
 resident and also posted on the Internet:-
 
 
 Dear Dr. Laura, Thank you for doing so much to educate people 
regarding
 God's Law.
 
 I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that
 knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to 
defend the
 homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that 
Leviticus 18:22
 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need 
some advice
 from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to 
follow
 them-
 
 a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it 
creates a
 pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my 
neighbours. They
 claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
 
 b ) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in 
Exodus
 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price 
for her?
 
 c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in 
her
 period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem 
is,how do I
 tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.
 
 d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male 
and female,
 provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of 
mine
 claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you 
clarify?
 Why can't I own Canadians?
 
 e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 
35:2
 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to 
kill him
 myself?
 
 f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
 abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than 
homosexuality. I
 don't agree. Can you settle this?
 
 g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I 
have a
 defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. 
Does my
 vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
 
 h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the 
hair around
 their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by 
Lev.19:27. How
 should they die?
 
 i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig 
makes me
 unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
 
 j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two 
different
 crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made 
of two
 different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends 
to curse
 and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the 
trouble of
 getting the whole town together to stone them?(Lev.24:10-16) 
Couldn't we
 just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with 
people
 who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
 
 I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident 
you can
 help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal 
and
 unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.







 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- 
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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- authfriend wrote:
 
  --- anonyff wrote:
  
   --- authfriend wrote:

Camille Paglia is bullshit.
   
   Judy, this post seems very unlike you, why do you say this?
  
  Uh, because I think she's bullshit?
  
  (Not sure why it seems unlike me.)
 
 I haven't analyzed your posts, Judy, but I would venture 
 that if I did, I'd find most have a beginning, a middle 
 and an end: Camille Paglia is bullshit because she's 
 wrong. Every study of rape finds it's an act of violent 
 control. For Paglia to say rape is an act of sex is like 
 saying head-on collisions are an alternative way to 
 park one's car. 
 
 To simply say she's bullshit and walk away is kind of 
 pugilis interruptus, you know what I mean?

Fair enough.  But in this case I was responding to
a post which stated flatly that Paglia had said
rape was about sex, no further argument, so a flatly
stated response seemed appropriate.

If somebody wants to present Paglia's reasons for
saying rape is about sex rather than power, I'd
be happy to take a crack at refuting them.

(Love your analogy.  May I borrow it?)






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...



On Feb 27, 2006, at 8:44 AM, authfriend wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "anonyff" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" jstein@ wrote:   Camille Paglia is bullshit.  Judy, this post seems very unlike you, why do you say this?  Uh, because I think she's bullshit?  (Not sure why it seems unlike me.) Maybe because you seem similar is some way?





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

On Feb 27, 2006, at 11:31 AM, Rick Archer wrote:on 2/27/06 10:08 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:In a message dated 2/27/06 9:29:23 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: But the Hebrew Scriptures are full of tales of such punishments of one unpleasant, violent sort or another.Jesus chose the destruction of Sodom because it worked in three respects: a punishment meted out to a *town*, the comparative severity of the punishment, *and* the specific sin for which it was punished.If you want to insist that Sodom was punished for the the sin of homosexuality, the force of the analogy is greatly weakened because the sins wouldn't be similar.Jesus was nothing if not precise in his analogies and metaphors. That's why they're so powerful. Judy can you find something specific that I said regarding this whole thread that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed *only* for homosexuality. The Story of Lot specifically says the Lord told Abraham, "I have heard that the people of Sodom and Gomorrah are extremely evil and everything they do is wicked. I am going down to see whether or not these reports are true then will know." Now couple this with Leviticus 18:22 "Do not practice homosexuality; it is a detestable sin". Surely the act of raping or wanting to molest the strangers is an act of homosexuality whether it is for pleasure or exhorting power. Either way, it is an abominable act and considered sinful.According to the Bible:Laura Schlessinger is a US radio personality who dispenses advice to people who call in to her radio show. Recently, she said that homosexuality is an abominaton according to Leviticus 18:22 and cannot be condoned in any circumstance. The following is an open letter to Dr.Laura penned by a US resident and also posted on the Internet:-Dear Dr. Laura, Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law.I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow them-a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?b ) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem is,how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them?(Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan. Jesus f*cking Christ are you going to be smote for posting that!

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-27 Thread foufou_fl

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

The following is an open letter to Dr.Laura penned by a US
 resident and also posted on the Internet:-

Actually it was penned by an US Pesident: Jeb Bartlett of West Wing --
it was part of the script of one of the shows.


 
 
 Dear Dr. Laura, Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding
 God's Law.
 
 I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that
 knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the
 homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that
Leviticus 18:22
 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need
some advice
 from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to follow
 them-
 
 a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a
 pleasing odour for the Lord (Lev. 1:9). The problem is my
neighbours. They
 claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
 
 b ) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in
Exodus
 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price
for her?
 
 c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her
 period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev. 15:19-24). The problem
is,how do I
 tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.
 
 d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and
female,
 provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine
 claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you
clarify?
 Why can't I own Canadians?
 
 e) I have a neighbour who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2
 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to
kill him
 myself?
 
 f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an
 abomination (Lev. 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than
homosexuality. I
 don't agree. Can you settle this?
 
 g) Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I
have a
 defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my
 vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
 
 h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the
hair around
 their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How
 should they die?
 
 i) I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me
 unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
 
 j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different
 crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made
of two
 different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to
curse
 and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the
trouble of
 getting the whole town together to stone them?(Lev.24:10-16) Couldn't we
 just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with
people
 who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
 
 I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident
you can
 help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and
 unchanging. Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-27 Thread foufou_fl

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Feb 27, 2006, at 8:44 AM, authfriend wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff anonyff@ wrote:
 
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
 
 
  Camille Paglia is bullshit.

Why do we keep picking on bulls -- a fine and noble animal. Why not
say rat shit. Or cockroach shit. Or the worst of all, Barry Shit.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-27 Thread Rick Archer

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...





on 2/27/06 10:38 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Jesus f*cking Christ are you going to be smote for posting that!

We must inquire, who is the smiter, and who the smitee? Isnt there really only one of us? And is there really a process of smiting, or is that not also part of Brahman?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Feb 27, 2006, at 8:44 AM, authfriend wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff anonyff@ wrote:
 
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
wrote:
 
 
 
  Camille Paglia is bullshit.
 
 
  Judy, this post seems very unlike you, why do you say this?
 
 
  Uh, because I think she's bullshit?
 
  (Not sure why it seems unlike me.)
 
 Maybe because you seem similar is some way?

It seems unlike me because I seem similar.

Very good, Vaj.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...



On Feb 27, 2006, at 12:06 PM, Rick Archer wrote:on 2/27/06 10:38 AM, Vaj at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Jesus f*cking Christ are you going to be smote for posting that!We must inquire, who is the smiter, and who the smitee? Isn’t there really only one of us? And is there really a process of smiting, or is that not also part of Brahman?"I" can't decide!





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-27 Thread shempmcgurk

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, MDixon6569@ wrote:
  In a message dated 2/25/06 12:35:05 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
  
   The  Bible says it is an abomination for a man to *lay* with
   another man  they 
   way he would with a woman. (paraphrased). I think that gets 
the  
   point across 
   without being too graphic.
  
  I am not a  biblical scholar, but apparently, the bible adds 
  that it is within gods  grace for a man to *lay* with  a 
  woman in the ways a man lays  with another man. 
  
  
  
  There is no sin that can not be  forgiven.
 
 There is no sin, period. It's an invention of those
 who cannot accept themselves and others.


Until I see some holy book that explicitly and clearly says that 
doing this or that particular homosexual act is a sin, I would have 
to agree with Barry.

Laying with another man is pretty darn ambiguous.  As Foufou Macoute 
pointed out, those fundamentalists that insist upon interpreting the 
Bible literally must ONLY be against the literal lying of a man with 
another man...everything else isn't expressly forbidden therefore 
there is nothing against doing it.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...



On Feb 27, 2006, at 12:17 PM, authfriend wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:   On Feb 27, 2006, at 8:44 AM, authfriend wrote:  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "anonyff" anonyff@ wrote:   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" jstein@  wrote:Camille Paglia is bullshit.   Judy, this post seems very unlike you, why do you say this?   Uh, because I think she's bullshit?  (Not sure why it seems unlike me.)  Maybe because you seem similar is some way?  It seems unlike me because I seem similar.  Very good, Vaj. I was actually serious. I often thought of you as similar to Camille (in a positive sense), therefore it was surprising to hear you find her offensive in some way and therefore the post seemed unlike you...however...people often project dislike towards those who mirror certain aspects of themselves, no? Can you see Camille as a certain aspect of yourself?





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-27 Thread Sal Sunshine

Maybe this is the abridged version. :)

Sal

On Feb 27, 2006, at 10:25 AM, Patrick Gillam wrote:

 I haven't analyzed your posts, Judy, but I would venture 
 that if I did, I'd find most have a beginning, a middle 
 and an end: Camille Paglia is bullshit because she's 
 wrong. Every study of rape finds it's an act of violent 
 control. For Paglia to say rape is an act of sex is like 
 saying head-on collisions are an alternative way to 
 park one's car. 

 To simply say she's bullshit and walk away is kind of 
 pugilis interruptus, you know what I mean?

[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-27 Thread foufou_fl

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Maybe this is the abridged version. :)
 
 Sal

Abridged over troubled waters?


 
 On Feb 27, 2006, at 10:25 AM, Patrick Gillam wrote:
 
   I haven't analyzed your posts, Judy, but I would venture
   that if I did, I'd find most have a beginning, a middle
   and an end: Camille Paglia is bullshit because she's
   wrong. Every study of rape finds it's an act of violent
   control. For Paglia to say rape is an act of sex is like
   saying head-on collisions are an alternative way to
   park one's car.
 
   To simply say she's bullshit and walk away is kind of
   pugilis interruptus, you know what I mean?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
 wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, MDixon6569@ wrote:
   In a message dated 2/25/06 12:35:05 A.M. Central Standard 
Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
   
The  Bible says it is an abomination for a man to *lay* with
another man  they 
way he would with a woman. (paraphrased). I think that gets 
the point across without being too graphic.
   
   I am not a  biblical scholar, but apparently, the bible adds 
   that it is within gods  grace for a man to *lay* with  a 
   woman in the ways a man lays  with another man. 
   
   There is no sin that can not be  forgiven.
  
  There is no sin, period. It's an invention of those
  who cannot accept themselves and others.
 
 Until I see some holy book that explicitly and clearly 
 says that doing this or that particular homosexual act 
 is a sin, I would have to agree with Barry.

I know I'm in effect agreeing with myself to agree
with Shemp here :-), but I'll not only agree, I'll 
see his agreement and raise him one heresy. 

I personally have never met a book I would consider 
holy, so it really doesn't matter to me what *any* 
of them has to say on this subject.

I know that might sound harsh, so I'll explain. In
my opinion, EVERY SINGLE HOLY BOOK IN THE HISTORY
OF THIS PLANET WAS WRITTEN BY MEN, FOR MEN. A few of
them IMO may have been inspired, in the sense that
they were written by or dictated by human beings in
higher states of consciousness, but to be honest not
very many of them even achieved that. The norm in the
realm of holy books is that most of the books that 
humans consider holy were written by NON-enlightened 
humans describing the actions of enlightened (or at 
least more enlightened) fellow humans as best they 
could (such as the Gospels).

IMO *none* of them was either written by God or 
inspired by God. They were all written by men, doing
their best to interpret their own experiences and
hoping to inspire others to have experiences of their
own. 

So it really doesn't matter to me what ANY of them
says on the subject of sex and sexuality, be it 
between men and women, men and men, women and women,
men and toasters, women and battery-powered objects,
whatever. Whatever the scriptures say, to me they
are merely words, and merely the words of other 
people just like myself. They are not necessarily
any closer to truth than grafiti written on a 
subway wall.

Others are free to believe what they want about the
books they revere. But I'll believe that any of them
are actual scriptures the day someone can show me
a copy of one that was actually autographed by the
supposed author.  :-)







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 On Feb 27, 2006, at 12:17 PM, authfriend wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
 
 
 
  On Feb 27, 2006, at 8:44 AM, authfriend wrote:
 
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anonyff anonyff@ 
wrote:
 
 
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@
 
  wrote:
 
 
 
 
 
  Camille Paglia is bullshit.
 
 
 
  Judy, this post seems very unlike you, why do you say this?
 
 
 
  Uh, because I think she's bullshit?
 
  (Not sure why it seems unlike me.)
 
 
  Maybe because you seem similar is some way?
 
 
  It seems unlike me because I seem similar.
 
  Very good, Vaj.
 
 I was actually serious. I often thought of you as similar to 
Camille  
 (in a positive sense), therefore it was surprising to hear you 
find  
 her offensive in some way and therefore the post seemed unlike  
 you...however...
 
 people often project dislike towards those who mirror certain  
 aspects of themselves, no? Can you see Camille as a certain aspect
 of yourself?

Other than that we can both be abrasive and both
loathe what seems to us to be hypocrisy, no.  But
her abrasiveness and hatred of hypocrisy aren't why
I think she's full of it.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-27 Thread Patrick Gillam

--- authfriend wrote:

  in this case I was responding to
 a post which stated flatly that Paglia had said
 rape was about sex, no further argument, so a flatly
 stated response seemed appropriate.

Oh yeah, it was perfect. And your rationale for not 
elaborating makes utter sense. Thanks.

 (Love your analogy.  May I borrow it?)

Be my guest.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk 
 shempmcgurk@ wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ 
  wrote:
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, MDixon6569@ wrote:
In a message dated 2/25/06 12:35:05 A.M. Central Standard 
 Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 The  Bible says it is an abomination for a man to *lay* with
 another man  they 
 way he would with a woman. (paraphrased). I think that gets 
 the point across without being too graphic.

I am not a  biblical scholar, but apparently, the bible adds 
that it is within gods  grace for a man to *lay* with  a 
woman in the ways a man lays  with another man. 

There is no sin that can not be  forgiven.
   
   There is no sin, period. It's an invention of those
   who cannot accept themselves and others.
  
  Until I see some holy book that explicitly and clearly 
  says that doing this or that particular homosexual act 
  is a sin, I would have to agree with Barry.
 
 I know I'm in effect agreeing with myself to agree
 with Shemp here :-), but I'll not only agree, I'll 
 see his agreement and raise him one heresy. 
 
 I personally have never met a book I would consider 
 holy, so it really doesn't matter to me what *any* 
 of them has to say on this subject.
 
 I know that might sound harsh, so I'll explain. In
 my opinion, EVERY SINGLE HOLY BOOK IN THE HISTORY
 OF THIS PLANET WAS WRITTEN BY MEN, FOR MEN. A few of
 them IMO may have been inspired, in the sense that
 they were written by or dictated by human beings in
 higher states of consciousness, but to be honest not
 very many of them even achieved that. The norm in the
 realm of holy books is that most of the books that 
 humans consider holy were written by NON-enlightened 
 humans describing the actions of enlightened (or at 
 least more enlightened) fellow humans as best they 
 could (such as the Gospels).
 
 IMO *none* of them was either written by God or 
 inspired by God.

Is that the sole criterion by which a book can be
judged holy?

Or is that just how you're defining holy?

Is it possible there are other viable definitions
of the term?

If there *were* (hypothetically) a book that met
this criterion of holy--i.e., that it was written
or inspired by God--would what it said then matter
to you?






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

On Feb 27, 2006, at 12:41 PM, TurquoiseB wrote:I know that might sound harsh, so I'll explain. In my opinion, EVERY SINGLE "HOLY" BOOK IN THE HISTORY OF THIS PLANET WAS WRITTEN BY MEN, FOR MEN. A few of them IMO may have been "inspired," in the sense that they were written by or dictated by human beings in higher states of consciousness, but to be honest not very many of them even achieved that. The norm in the realm of "holy books" is that most of the books that humans consider "holy" were written by NON-enlightened humans describing the actions of enlightened (or at least more enlightened) fellow humans as best they could (such as the Gospels). What about yellow scrolls written in microscopic Dakini script :-)?...not all works are "by purusha", by men. Of course, this is one thing Mahesh Yogi has claimed to have: the "apurusheya bhasya" (not purusha created commentary), of Rig Veda, which is also "not by man". So "men" can use the fact that books 'not by men' have some alleged clout...What about texts that require a certain level or state of consciousness to even grok?Sometimes there's more to the text than meets the eye. :-)

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 What about texts that require a certain level or state of  
 consciousness to even grok?
 
 Sometimes there's more to the text than meets the eye. :-)

Indeed. The claim that a book can only be understood
by a few might, in fact, mask an attempt by those few
to manipulate others.  :-)








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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...



On Feb 27, 2006, at 1:10 PM, TurquoiseB wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  What about texts that require a certain level or state of   consciousness to even grok?  Sometimes there's more to the text than meets the eye. :-)  Indeed. The claim that a book can only be "understood" by a few might, in fact, mask an attempt by those "few" to manipulate others.  :-) And indeed it does. That's why some texts are sealed by the beings who communicate them.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 On Feb 27, 2006, at 1:10 PM, TurquoiseB wrote:
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
 
  What about texts that require a certain level or state of
  consciousness to even grok?
 
  Sometimes there's more to the text than meets the eye. :-)
 
  Indeed. The claim that a book can only be understood
  by a few might, in fact, mask an attempt by those few
  to manipulate others.  :-)
 
 And indeed it does. That's why some texts are sealed by 
 the beings who communicate them.

Whatever floats your boat.

I'm not saying that such a thing isn't possible.
All I'm suggesting is that, given the long, 
sordid history of spirituality on this rock,
it's just as possible that claims of a book's
specialness are a way of attracting followers
whose greatest desire is to feel special to
those who claim to have special knowledge
of special books.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

On Feb 27, 2006, at 1:33 PM, TurquoiseB wrote:--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 27, 2006, at 1:10 PM, TurquoiseB wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote: What about texts that require a certain level or state of consciousness to even grok? Sometimes there's more to the text than meets the eye. :-) Indeed. The claim that a book can only be "understood" by a few might, in fact, mask an attempt by those "few" to manipulate others. :-) And indeed it does. That's why some texts are sealed by the beings who communicate them. Whatever floats your boat. I'm not saying that such a thing isn't possible. All I'm suggesting is that, given the long, sordid history of spirituality on this rock, it's just as possible that claims of a book's specialness are a way of attracting followers whose greatest desire is to feel "special" to those who claim to have "special" knowledge of "special" books. Yeah, that's a given because it clearly has. One only has to remember the Christian liturgy and bible which was encoded in Latin and dispensed to the unknowing masses. Destroy the Gnosis and we, the priest, will mediate for you. Just keep sending money.It's interesting in Sanskrit literature it is said that it is only in the Kali Yuga, 'when the minds of men began to wane' that writing appeared. Writing is therefore an artifact of the age of darkness. Some traditions do not even consider written texts to be worthy of repetition. Having met a number of yogis who had photographic memory I can understand how this is possible even though epic poets and bards are hard to find these days. Also NOT having photographic memory myself, I can see why writing is important. But while either the oral or written can create exclusive priesthoods, in history it was the written word which allowed for codification, dogma and control--the Aryans "capture" of Dravidian texts in the artificial language of Sanskrit is but one example. The question seems to me is 'which is more capable of producing Gnosis for a given person?' The importance of "ear-whispered tradition" thus remains important--the morphogenetic field of living tradition: only "alive" when it is alive in us.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-27 Thread anonyff

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 
 Other than that we can both be abrasive and both
 loathe what seems to us to be hypocrisy, no.  But
 her abrasiveness and hatred of hypocrisy aren't why
 I think she's full of it.


you abrasive? come on now!






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/27/06 10:32:48 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Homosexual acts between two people of homosexualpreference are 
  engaged in for "pleasure" and, often,out of deep emotional feelings of 
  love, just as withheterosexuals.Homosexual acts between two people 
  of *heterosexual*preference are engaged in for many different 
  reasons,including ritualistic performance, stimulating ajaded sexual 
  appetite, and for purposes ofintimidation and humiliation, among 
  others.Now, given a loving, beneficent God, which type 
  of"homosexuality" do you think He would be mostopposed to? Or do 
  you think He would condemn allof them as equally detestable in His 
  sight?

Perhaps you should ask Him. Either way, it's still sin and 
disobedience and either way that sin and disobedience can be forgiven if 
repented of. Basically you're asking me to judge for God or speak for him. I 
can't do that. You still haven't shown me any evidence that the men and boys in 
Sodom tried to have sex with the angels in order to intimidate them into 
leaving. Yet it is said in the Bible that they wanted to "know" them, a term 
which is repeatedly used to show intimacy between men and women in the Bible. 
Somebody wanting to exhibit dominance and control by rape are not 
concernedwith intimacy.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 In a message dated 2/27/06 10:32:48 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 Homosexual acts between two people of homosexual
 preference are  engaged in for pleasure and, often,
 out of deep emotional feelings of  love, just as with
 heterosexuals.
 
 Homosexual acts between two people  of *heterosexual*
 preference are engaged in for many different  reasons,
 including ritualistic performance, stimulating a
 jaded sexual  appetite, and for purposes of
 intimidation and humiliation, among  others.
 
 Now, given a loving, beneficent God, which type  of
 homosexuality do you think He would be most
 opposed to?  Or do  you think He would condemn all
 of them as equally detestable in His  sight?
 
 Perhaps you should ask Him. Either way, it's still sin and  
 disobedience and either way that sin and disobedience can be 
 forgiven if  repented of. Basically you're asking me to judge for 
 God or speak for him. I  can't do that.

You can certainly say what you would expect of the
God you believe in.  If you didn't have some expectations
that you think He satisfies, you wouldn't be very
likely to believe in Him, would you?

 You still haven't shown me any evidence that the men and boys in  
 Sodom tried to have sex with the angels in order to intimidate them 
 into leaving.

Well, it would be rather difficult to provide you
with hard evidence at this juncture.  However, as
I've noted, there's excellent historical/cultural
evidence that anal rape was a means of intimidating
and humiliating people; and there's also Ezekiel's
complaint about Sodom, which emphasizes its refusal
to share its wealth with the poor and needy (in
this case, Lot's visitors).

There's also the unlikelihood that all the males in
the town--including the young ones--suddenly got
horny all at once on that particular evening, and
instead of satisfying their desires with each other,
decided to go after Lot's visitors.

In other words, the story doesn't make much sense in
your interpretation, whereas it makes perfect sense
in mine.

 Yet it is said in the Bible that they wanted to know them, a 
 term  which is repeatedly used to show intimacy between men and 
 women in the Bible.  Somebody wanting to exhibit dominance and 
 control by rape are not  concerned with intimacy.

Certainly not, but such people would be quite capable
of using mocking, sneering language, suggesting that
the strangers were weak.  Remember the social position
of women in biblical times.  The whole idea of anal
rape of one man by another was (and still is) to put
the rapee in a position of submission and
powerlessness, just as a woman is when a man wants
to have his way with her.

The men of Sodom would have used that term to suggest
that the strangers were as powerless as women.  It
*emphasizes* the power element in the situation, makes
it explicit.  Has nothing to do with intimacy per se.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-27 Thread t3rinity

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Also NOT having photographic memory myself, I can see why writing is 
 important.

I always thought that photographic memory was useful only with written
texts.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-27 Thread t3rinity

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 IMO *none* of them was either written by God or 
 inspired by God. 

What a revolutionary claim made by a man not believing in God anyway.
How could he have inspired a book if he doesn't exist? (in your book)






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-27 Thread t3rinity

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 I seem to remember that in Hebrews 16:4 the
 punishment for being uptight about *anything*
 related to sex was to reincarnate in a place
 and time where people argue endlessly about
 such things on something the prophets called
 the Intern-aught or a term similar to that
 one. The image was of being interned up to 
 one's aught (this word has been suggested by
 Biblical scholars to mean ears) in shit.
 This fate was generally considered to be worse 
 than going to Hell. In Hell at least there was
 variety, and *occasionally a sense of humor*

But only for the cigarette-break ;-)
The funny thing about it is, that they aren't even forced to be there;
they just act under the compulsion 'as if' they were forced to be
there. In reality they are free to leave the place for a better one
any time.
:-) :-) :-)






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/27/06 3:25:09 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Well, it 
  would be rather difficult to provide youwith hard evidence at this 
  juncture. However, asI've noted, there's excellent 
  historical/culturalevidence that anal rape was a means of 
  intimidatingand humiliating people; and there's also 
  Ezekiel'scomplaint about Sodom, which emphasizes its refusalto share 
  its wealth with the poor and needy (inthis case, Lot's 
  visitors).There's also the unlikelihood that all the males inthe 
  town--including the young ones--suddenly gothorny all at once on that 
  particular evening, andinstead of satisfying their desires with each 
  other,decided to go after Lot's visitors.In other words, the story 
  doesn't make much sense inyour interpretation, whereas it makes perfect 
  sensein mine.

Actually I think my interpretation makes much more since. 
Lot's guests made no demand for charity from anybody in the city. As a matter of 
fact Lot met them at the gate to the city and invited them to stay in his house 
for the evening. Why would anybody object to that? On the other hand, can you 
imagine if two gorgeous angels walked into the Castro district of San Francisco 
and a bunch of gay biker types saw them and followed them to the house they went 
in. Do you think they would hang aroundto run them out of town or be 
inhopes of getting a *date*?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 In a message dated 2/27/06 3:25:09 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 Well, it  would be rather difficult to provide you
 with hard evidence at this  juncture.  However, as
 I've noted, there's excellent  historical/cultural
 evidence that anal rape was a means of  intimidating
 and humiliating people; and there's also  Ezekiel's
 complaint about Sodom, which emphasizes its refusal
 to share  its wealth with the poor and needy (in
 this case, Lot's  visitors).
 
 There's also the unlikelihood that all the males in
 the  town--including the young ones--suddenly got
 horny all at once on that  particular evening, and
 instead of satisfying their desires with each  other,
 decided to go after Lot's visitors.
 
 In other words, the story  doesn't make much sense in
 your interpretation, whereas it makes perfect  sense
 in mine.
 
 Actually I think my interpretation makes much more since.  Lot's
 guests made no demand for charity from anybody in the city. As a 
 matter of  fact Lot met them at the gate to the city and invited 
 them to stay in his house  for the evening. Why would anybody 
 object to that?

The people of Sodom were unfriendly to outsiders,
not willing to share, not wanting anybody to get
any ideas about sponging off them.  They obviously
were not pleased that Lot had invited them to stay
with him.  They were mean, nasty, selfish people.

 On the other hand, can you  imagine if 
 two gorgeous angels walked into the Castro district of San 
 Francisco  and a bunch of gay biker types saw them and followed 
 them to the house they went  in. Do you think they would hang 
 around to run them out of town or be   in hopes of getting a *date*?

You're truly hopeless.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-27 Thread Nelson

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
 
  What about texts that require a certain level or state of  
  consciousness to even grok?
  
  Sometimes there's more to the text than meets the eye. :-)
 
 Indeed. The claim that a book can only be understood
 by a few might, in fact, mask an attempt by those few
 to manipulate others.  :-)

+++ Seems to be some similarity in,
 You are not enlightened -we will enlighten you.
 You are all sinners, -   we will save you.
 You are in danger from terrorists - we will protect you.
 The first two say send money whereas the last says pay your taxes
or else.
  It looks like all have the common denominator of we know what
is best for you and, if you stop thinking (which is recommended) it
is all for the best.  N.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-27 Thread lurkernomore20002000

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 
 Dear Dr. Laura, Thank you for doing so much to educate people 
regarding
 God's Law.
 
 I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that
 knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to 
defend the
 homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that 
Leviticus 18:22
 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate. I do need 
some advice
 from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to 
follow
 them

Rick, I had never seen this before.  I loved it!

lurk
 









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, MDixon6569@ wrote:
 
   
  In a message dated 2/27/06 3:25:09 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
  jstein@ writes:
  
  Well, it  would be rather difficult to provide you
  with hard evidence at this  juncture.  However, as
  I've noted, there's excellent  historical/cultural
  evidence that anal rape was a means of  intimidating
  and humiliating people; and there's also  Ezekiel's
  complaint about Sodom, which emphasizes its refusal
  to share  its wealth with the poor and needy (in
  this case, Lot's  visitors).
  
  There's also the unlikelihood that all the males in
  the  town--including the young ones--suddenly got
  horny all at once on that  particular evening, and
  instead of satisfying their desires with each  other,
  decided to go after Lot's visitors.
  
  In other words, the story  doesn't make much sense in
  your interpretation, whereas it makes perfect  sense
  in mine.
  
  Actually I think my interpretation makes much more since.  Lot's
  guests made no demand for charity from anybody in the city. As a 
  matter of  fact Lot met them at the gate to the city and invited 
  them to stay in his house  for the evening. Why would anybody 
  object to that?
 
 The people of Sodom were unfriendly to outsiders,
 not willing to share, not wanting anybody to get
 any ideas about sponging off them.  They obviously
 were not pleased that Lot had invited them to stay
 with him.  They were mean, nasty, selfish people.
 
  On the other hand, can you  imagine if 
  two gorgeous angels walked into the Castro district of San 
  Francisco  and a bunch of gay biker types saw them and followed 
  them to the house they went  in. Do you think they would hang 
  around to run them out of town or be   in hopes of getting a 
*date*?
 
 You're truly hopeless.

Just to add: Your interpretation requires reading
*far more* into the biblical story than mine does.

There is zero evidence of Castro district-like entire
gay towns in biblical times.

But there's plenty of evidence of the use of anal rape
to intimiate and humiliate in those times.

You have to find a situation that has existed, as
far as we know, only in modern times, and claim
it existed in biblical times.

I don't have to do that.  The situation I'm saying
is parallel we *know* existed in biblical times.
And everything in the biblical story fits that
parallel perfectly.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Nelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajranatha@ wrote:
  
   What about texts that require a certain level or state of  
   consciousness to even grok?
   
   Sometimes there's more to the text than meets the eye. :-)
  
  Indeed. The claim that a book can only be understood
  by a few might, in fact, mask an attempt by those few
  to manipulate others.  :-)
 
 +++ Seems to be some similarity in,
  You are not enlightened -we will enlighten you.
  You are all sinners, -   we will save you.
  You are in danger from terrorists - we will protect you.
  The first two say send money whereas the last says pay your 
taxes
 or else.
   It looks like all have the common denominator of we know what
 is best for you and, if you stop thinking (which is recommended) it
 is all for the best.  N.

Of course, it could also be the case that--given that
knowledge is different in different states of 
consciousness (which Barry has repeatedly insisted on)--
something composed by someone in a different state
of consciousness than the person reading or hearing it
would *not* be comprehensible to the latter, no matter
how hard they think.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-27 Thread shempmcgurk

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, MDixon6569@ wrote:
  In a message dated 2/27/06 1:56:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
  sparaig@ writes:
 
  What's  the punishment for this abomination? Failing to 
  observe the Sabbath (always Saturday, sorry non-7th-dayers) 
  is punishable by being stoned or banished. What's the set 
  punishment for homosexuality in the bible?
  
  Do your own rersearch
 
 I seem to remember that in Hebrews 16:4 the
 punishment for being uptight about *anything*
 related to sex was to reincarnate in a place
 and time where people argue endlessly about
 such things on something the prophets called
 the Intern-aught or a term similar to that
 one. The image was of being interned up to 
 one's aught (this word has been suggested by
 Biblical scholars to mean ears) in shit.
 This fate was generally considered to be worse 
 than going to Hell. In Hell at least there was
 variety, and occasionally a sense of humor.


(the following was a joke going on in Canada around 1982 when Pierre 
Trudeau was in power and Joe Clark was Royal Opposition Leader):

Pierre Trudeau dies and goes to heaven.  At the Pearly Gates, 
Trudeau meets St. Peter who says: well, Mr. Trudeau, you've been a 
very good person but there are a few things that you did that were 
not so great (which he then lists and, of course, if you're a 
Canadian you'd understand the list of unpopular things that St. 
Peter lists).

So, Mr. Trudeau, before you get into heaven you've got to spend a 
bit of time in purgatory to pay for those sins.  So I'm going to put 
you in a room full of broken glass and ravor blade for a month.

So Trudeau thinks that's reasonable and as St. Peter is bringing Mr. 
Trudeau to his room to suffer his fate they pass by a room with the 
door ajar and Mr. Trudeau looks in and sees Joe Clark being massaged 
by a naked Bo Derek.

The surprised Mr. Trudeau turns to St. Peter and says: Surely I 
understand that I wasn't perfect and that I deserve to spend a month 
in the room of broken glass and razor blades as punishment. But, 
certainly, Mr. Clark wasn't any better than me!  This isn't fair!

And St. Peter turns to Mr. Trudeau and says: Mr, Trudeau, Miss 
Derek's punishment is none of your business!









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, t3rinity [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  IMO *none* of them was either written by God or 
  inspired by God. 
 
 What a revolutionary claim made by a man not believing 
 in God anyway. How could he have inspired a book if he 
 doesn't exist? (in your book)

True.

But *you* clearly believe that God *does* exist.
And just as clearly, since you keep bringing 
up my lack of belief in same, over and over 
and over again, as if it were some kind of 
cosmic failing, you have some strong feelings
about the God you believe in that get tweaked
when someone believes differently.

I am the first to admit that that when it comes 
to God, you're the expert and I'm not. 

So tell us...is the God you believe in an author?  
Did He/She/It actually *write* any of the books 
that have been credited to Him/Her/It over the 
centuries?  If so, which ones?  And where does
one go to check their actual sales ranking on 
the great Best Seller List In The Sky?







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/25/06 8:12:07 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Let 
  me ask it this way: Do you think they wanted to rape Lot's 
  visitors because they were horny? In other words, was the 
  point sexual gratification?  Would it matter? Would the 
  act be justified if it were just a power  trip? Or justified if 
  it were for shear pleasure?Was anybody trying to *justify* 
  it?? Certainly not I.Can you answer the question, 
  please?

The men and boys of Sodomwanted Lot to bring out his 
guests so they could "know" them. Sounds like horniness to me. But that would be 
a guess on my part.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/25/06 8:49:40 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What a 
  family. And what a great book from which to take instruction about family 
  values and sexual mores!

And what does that say about homosexuality in the eyes of God? 
At least Leviticus deals with the rest at a later place in the Bible as society 
evolves.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/26/06 12:13:43 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
you 
  know, if this stuff were in the Koran, the fundies would be using it as 
  evidence of how bad Islam is...

It probably is in the Koran. Much of the Bible is found in the 
Koran with a few variations and twists. 





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/26/06 12:29:53 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Better 
  yet: Billy Crystal's impersonation of Edward J. Robinson's biblical 
  character from "The Ten Commandments": "Where's your Moses now? 
  Where's your King of the Jews now?", done in classical 
  Brooklynese...

Billy Crystal is one of my favorites! I Liked his Yule Brenner 
impersonation going back and forth between the King of Siam and Ramases," So it 
shall be written, so it shall be, done etc etc 
etc





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, bbrigante [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk 
 shempmcgurk@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam 
  jpgillam@ wrote:
  
   --- MDixon6569 wrote:
   
 
 The men 
of Sodom tried to  break into Lot's home to rape 
the guests and Angels blinded the men of Sodom 
to  make their escape along with Lot's family.
   
   But not before Lot offers his daughters to the mob 
   as an appeasement:
   
   See now, I have two virgin daughters. Please let me 
   bring them out to you, and you may do to them what 
   seems good to you. Only don't do anything to these 
   men, because they have come under the shadow of 
   my roof.  (Genesis 19:8)
   
   And what daughters they are! After escaping Sodom 
   and losing Mrs. Lot to God's wrath -- I guess, like a 
   criminal, the Almighty doesn't like witnesses -- the 
   girls realize they'll never find husbands, so the conspire 
   to get pregnant by their dad in order to preserve the 
   family line. They're holed up in a cave at the time.
   
   Lot's daughters get the old man so blind drunk that 
   he doesn't realize he's having sex with them. The 
   oldest daughter has the honors one night, and the 
   second daughter the next.
   
   Thus both of Lot's daughters were with child by 
   their father. (Genesis 19:36)
   
   I wonder how they explained the offspring to dad? 
   Maybe they said those killer angels who offed 
   Sodom came back and wed the daughters when 
   Lot was shitfaced in the cave.
   
   What a family. And what a great book from which 
   to take instruction about family values and sexual mores!
  
  
  
 
 
  you know, if this stuff were in the Koran, the fundies would be 
  using it as evidence of how bad Islam is...
 
 
 *
 
 Muslims accept the authority and authenticity of the Old Testament 
 just as Christians do:
 
 http://www.al-bushra.org/Madros/traditional.htm



...and Jews -- as well as Christians -- are people of the book 
(i.e. the Koran) but that doesn't stop most, if not all, governments 
of Muslim countries and the vast majority of Arabs and Muslims from 
wanting Israel and Jews dead.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 In a message dated 2/26/06 12:29:53 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 Better  yet: Billy Crystal's impersonation of Edward J. Robinson's 
 biblical  character from The Ten Commandments: Where's your 
Moses 
 now?   Where's your King of the Jews now?, done in classical  
 Brooklynese...
 
 
 
 
 Billy Crystal is one of my favorites! I Liked his Yule Brenner  
impersonation 
 going back and forth between the King of Siam and Ramases, So it  
shall be 
 written, so it shall be, done etc etc  etc


On one of his performance videos, his Edward J. Robinson routine is 
done right after his King of Siam routine.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 In a message dated 2/25/06 8:12:07 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Let  me  ask it this way: Do you think they wanted to
  rape Lot's  visitors because  they were horny?  In
  other words, was the  point sexual  gratification?
  
  Would it matter? Would the  act be justified if it were just a  
  power trip? Or justified if  it were for shear  pleasure?
 
 Was anybody trying to *justify*  it??  Certainly not I.
 
 Can you answer the question,  please?
 
 The men and boys of Sodom wanted Lot to bring out his  guests so
 they could know them. Sounds like horniness to me. But that would 
 be  a guess on my part.

It's important to guess right if you're going to claim
the Bible considers homosexuality a sin based on what
happened to the men of Sodom, isn't it?  (Which you did,
several posts back, and as many religionists do.)

In fact, there's a great deal of cultural, historical, and
even textual evidence (from the story itself) that strongly
suggests otherwise--i.e., that the men of Sodom weren't
homosexual or even bisexual, and that the threatened rape
was not a function of sexual desire on their part, but
rather an attempt to intimidate Lot's visitors into
leaving forthwith.  Anal rape of men by men was a common
means of intimidation and humiliation in biblical times,
and still is in some areas today (including in prisons).

The real sin of Sodom was that it was *inhospitable to
people in need*.  Again, historically and culturally, in a
hostile desert environment, not to take in and care for
strangers was considered a terrible breach, because it
could put their lives at risk.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-26 Thread Patrick Gillam

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 What a  family. And what a great book from which 
 to take instruction about family  values and sexual mores!
 
 Leviticus deals with the rest at a later place in the Bible as society  
 evolves.

Cite some passages and I'll look them up. Thanks.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, MDixon6569@ wrote:
 
   
  In a message dated 2/25/06 8:12:07 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
  jstein@ writes:
  
   Let  me  ask it this way: Do you think they wanted to
   rape Lot's  visitors because  they were horny?  In
   other words, was the  point sexual  gratification?
   
   Would it matter? Would the  act be justified if it were just a  
   power trip? Or justified if  it were for shear  pleasure?
  
  Was anybody trying to *justify*  it??  Certainly not I.
  
  Can you answer the question,  please?
  
  The men and boys of Sodom wanted Lot to bring out his  guests so
  they could know them. Sounds like horniness to me. But that 
would 
  be  a guess on my part.
 
 It's important to guess right if you're going to claim
 the Bible considers homosexuality a sin based on what
 happened to the men of Sodom, isn't it?  (Which you did,
 several posts back, and as many religionists do.)
 
 In fact, there's a great deal of cultural, historical, and
 even textual evidence (from the story itself) that strongly
 suggests otherwise--i.e., that the men of Sodom weren't
 homosexual or even bisexual, and that the threatened rape
 was not a function of sexual desire on their part, but
 rather an attempt to intimidate Lot's visitors into
 leaving forthwith.  Anal rape of men by men was a common
 means of intimidation and humiliation in biblical times,
 and still is in some areas today (including in prisons).
 
 The real sin of Sodom was that it was *inhospitable to
 people in need*.  Again, historically and culturally, in a
 hostile desert environment, not to take in and care for
 strangers was considered a terrible breach, because it
 could put their lives at risk.

P.S.:  From Luke, Jesus to his disciples:

But if you go into a town, and the people don't welcome you, then go 
out into the streets of that town and say, 'Even the dirt (dust) from 
your town that sticks to our feet we wipe off against you. But 
remember that the kingdom of God is coming soon.' I tell you, on the 
judgment day it will be worse for the people of that town than for 
the people of Sodom.

It appears that as far as Jesus was concerned, the sin
of refusing hospitality was far worse than that of
homosexuality.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- MDixon6569@ wrote:
   
  jpgillam@ writes:
  
  What a  family. And what a great book from which 
  to take instruction about family  values and sexual mores!
  
  Leviticus deals with the rest at a later place in the Bible as
  society  evolves.
 
 Cite some passages and I'll look them up. Thanks.

There's an excellent (and very balanced) rundown of
the various interpretations of the primary passage,
Leviticus 18:22, here:

http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh.htm

It should be quite an eye-opener to those who have
always assumed the verse condemns homosexuality.

But then there's also Paul in Romans 1:26-27...






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-26 Thread foufou_fl

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam jpgillam@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- MDixon6569@ wrote:

   jpgillam@ writes:
   
   What a  family. And what a great book from which 
   to take instruction about family  values and sexual mores!
   
   Leviticus deals with the rest at a later place in the Bible as
   society  evolves.
  
  Cite some passages and I'll look them up. Thanks.
 
 There's an excellent (and very balanced) rundown of
 the various interpretations of the primary passage,
 Leviticus 18:22, here:
 
 http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh.htm
 
 It should be quite an eye-opener to those who have
 always assumed the verse condemns homosexuality.
 
 But then there's also Paul in Romans 1:26-27...

And with a male you shall not lay lyings of a woman

Well, being a fundamentalist, I beleive the Bible should be read
literally, without a lot of symbolic or metaphoric or fancy smancy
interpretations. I take the passage to mean that men should not lay
together. Period.

Nothing is said about sex. Thus if two men get it on by standing,
sitting, bent over, etc, then thats fine. They just cant lay together
 -- on the ground or in a bed, or in the hay in the barn. Sex or no
sex. No man to man laying.

And women can lay together, no problem. 









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- authfriend wrote:
  
  There's an excellent (and very balanced) rundown of
  the various interpretations of the primary passage,
  Leviticus 18:22, here:
  
  http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibh.htm
 
 Yes, that's interesting, thank you. 
 
 Reading these old verses points up the impracticality 
 of trying to live one's life by the dictates of some 
 external code. I mean, the original Hebrew sounds 
 warped as it is: And with a male you shall not lay 
 lyings of a woman. Huh? And now I have to make
 sense of that, and live my life by it?
 
 Not only that, but this is the book that condones 
 polygyny and slavery. Shall we reinstate those
 practices as well?
 
 I suspect those old Jews had the same issue with 
 gay sex that people have today: it seems stinky, 
 what with all that santorum on the sheepskins...

ROTFL!!!







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/26/06 12:19:32 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
suggests 
  otherwise--i.e., that the men of Sodom weren'thomosexual or even bisexual, 
  and that the threatened rapewas not a function of sexual desire on their 
  part, butrather an attempt to intimidate Lot's visitors intoleaving 
  forthwith.

And Why did they want them to leave so quickly? Was rape the 
only means of intimidating them?





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/26/06 12:21:12 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Cite 
  some passages and I'll look them up. Thanks.

Try Leviticus 18 Forbidden Sexual 
practices.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/26/06 12:31:30 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
But 
  remember that the kingdom of God is coming soon.' I tell you, on the 
  judgment day it will be worse for the people of that town than for the 
  people of Sodom."It appears that as far as Jesus was concerned, the 
  sinof refusing hospitality was far worse than that 
  ofhomosexuality.

The comparison of homosexuality and hospitality are not 
made here by Christ. What Christ is saying is that the people of a town that 
refuses his message are in far worse condition because the message was offered 
and rejected where as it was never offered to the Sodomites who never rejected 
it. Try reading Leviticus 18:22,Romans 1:18-32, 1 Corinthians 
6:9-10.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 In a message dated 2/26/06 12:19:32 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 suggests  otherwise--i.e., that the men of Sodom weren't
 homosexual or even bisexual,  and that the threatened rape
 was not a function of sexual desire on their  part, but
 rather an attempt to intimidate Lot's visitors into
 leaving  forthwith. 
 
 
 And Why did they want them to leave so quickly? Was rape the  only
 means of intimidating them?

According to the Bible, they didn't want to have to
share their prosperity with every stranger who came
along.

I suspect they could have found other means, but rape
was a pretty effective threat, and, as I said, a common
means of doing so at that time.

Plus which, they probably would have enjoyed the actual
intimidation and humiliation of the strangers.

Rape generally--including heterosexual rape--is not
about sex but about power.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 In a message dated 2/26/06 12:31:30 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 But  
 remember that the kingdom of God is coming soon.' I tell you, on 
the  
 judgment day it will be worse for the people of that town than for 
 the  people of Sodom.
 
 It appears that as far as Jesus was concerned, the  sin
 of refusing hospitality was far worse than that  of
 homosexuality.
 
 
 
 The comparison of homosexuality and  hospitality are not  made here 
by 
 Christ. What Christ is saying is that the people of a town that  
refuses his message 
 are in far worse condition because the message was offered  and 
rejected 
 where as it was never offered to the Sodomites who never rejected  
it.

Of course, but why did Jesus choose Sodom for the
comparison?  He didn't just pick it out of a hat;
he used Sodom  because the sinful *behavior* was
similar to that of the town that would reject
Jesus's disciples--the lack of welcome to strangers.

The *punishment* would be worse because they were
rejecting Jesus's message, but to make that very
point he had to choose a town with an equivalent
sin.

Obviously he wasn't suggesting that the towns that
rejected his disciples would be full of homosexuals.





 Try reading 
 Leviticus 18:22,Romans 1:18-32,  1 Corinthians  6:9-10.

But why did Jesus choose Sodom for his comparison?








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-26 Thread foufou_fl

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 Rape generally--including heterosexual rape--is not
 about sex but about power.


I am sure it is generally, Susan Brownmiller's work and all, but it
occured to me a large category of rape -- date rape -- is primarily
about lust. Some power dimension perhaps in some cases. What do you think?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, foufou_fl [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  
  Rape generally--including heterosexual rape--is not
  about sex but about power.
 
 
 I am sure it is generally, Susan Brownmiller's work and all, but it
 occured to me a large category of rape -- date rape -- is primarily
 about lust. Some power dimension perhaps in some cases. What do you 
think?

Date rape as a category involves a very broad range
of situations. Where it's coerced against explicit,
vehement resistance, it's still about power.  But much
less overtly coercive behavior is also called date rape.
So you have to look at it on a case-by-case basis.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


[snip]

 
 Rape generally--including heterosexual rape--is not
 about sex but about power.


Camille Paglia says that's bullshit.  Of couse, she says, rape is 
about sex.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
 
 [snip]
 
  
  Rape generally--including heterosexual rape--is not
  about sex but about power.
 
 
 Camille Paglia says that's bullshit.  Of couse, she says, rape is 
 about sex.

Camille Paglia is bullshit.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
wrote:
  
  
  [snip]
  
   
   Rape generally--including heterosexual rape--is not
   about sex but about power.
  
  
  Camille Paglia says that's bullshit.  Of couse, she says, rape 
is 
  about sex.
 
 Camille Paglia is bullshit.


She should know: she's a lesbian.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-26 Thread anonyff

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 
 Camille Paglia is bullshit.


Judy, this post seems very unlike you, why do you say this?








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-26 Thread sparaig

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 In a message dated 2/24/06 8:35:37 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 
 I  guess that pretty much sums up all that these holy books would 
have 
 had to  say if they wanted to ban homosexuals.
 
 Anyone know of any holy book  that comes close to telling us what 
we 
 can or can't do in this  area?
 
 
 
 
 The Bible says it is an abomination for a man to *lay* with  
another man they 
 way he would with a woman. (paraphrased). I think that gets the  
point across 
 without being too graphic.


What's the punishment for this abomination? Failing to observe the 
Sabbath (always Saturday, sorry non-7th-dayers) is punishable by 
being stoned or banished. What's the set punishment for homosexuality 
in the bible?
 






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/25/06 12:35:05 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 The 
  Bible says it is an abomination for a man to *lay* with anotherman 
  they  way he would with a woman. (paraphrased). I think that gets the 
  point across  without being too graphic.I am not a 
  biblical scholar, but apparently, the bible adds that it iswithin gods 
  grace for a man to *lay* with a woman in the ways a man lays 
  with another man. 

There is no sin that can not be 
forgiven.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/25/06 1:11:44 A.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 The 
  Bible says it is an abomination for a man to *lay* with another man 
  they  way he would with a woman. (paraphrased). I think that gets 
  the point across  without being too 
  graphic.That's IT?Sounds pretty vague to 
  me.

Shemp That's the only verse, from Leviticus, that I remember 
off hand. I pretty sure there is more. The Bible wasn't written in legalese as a 
contractbetween man and God. Could you imagine if priests and rabbi had to 
be attorneys as well?ROFLMAO!





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 In a message dated 2/25/06 1:11:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  The  Bible says it is an abomination for a man to *lay* with  
 another man  they 
  way he would with a woman. (paraphrased). I think that gets  the  
 point across 
  without being too  graphic.
 
 That's IT?
 
 Sounds pretty vague to  me.
 
 Shemp That's the only verse, from Leviticus, that I remember  off
 hand. I pretty sure there is more.

Paul has a pretty good rant, I forget in which
of the epistles.

 The Bible wasn't written in 
 legalese as a  contract between man and God. Could you imagine if 
 priests and rabbi had to  be attorneys as well? ROFLMAO!

Well, actually the Hebrew Scriptures are exactly,
precisely that, as far as Judaism is concerned.

Have you really never heard of the Covenant between
God and His Chosen People?

And as to rabbis being lawyers, have you never
heard the provisions of the Covenant, especially
in Leviticus, being referred to as the Law?

One of the major tasks of rabbis was (and still is,
although to a lesser extent) to interpret the Law,
so they did indeed have to be able to think
legalistically.  The entire Talmud is filled with
detailed legalistic discussions about how the Law
was to be applied, just as the judiciary today
wrestles with questions about how the Consitution
and the laws based on it are to be applied.  Even
though the Constitution is much more recent than
the Hebrew Scriptures, there are still disagreements
and conflicting interpretations.

(In fact, one of the defenses offered for displaying
the Ten Commandments in public buildings is that
*our* law is based on the Judaic Law, so the Ten
Commandments can be seen as historical legal
precedent rather than a religious statement.)

As to the passage you cite from Leviticus--which is
most definitely part of the Law--and Paul's later
rant, there are scholars who question the
traditional interpretation, i.e., that it was
intended to prohibit all homosexual activity.

You never answered my question, by the way, as to
whether you thought the men of Sodom were homosexual.
I'm intereted to know.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 In a message dated 2/25/06 12:35:05 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  The  Bible says it is an abomination for a man to *lay* with  
 another man  they way he would with a woman. (paraphrased). I think 
 that gets the point across without being too graphic.
 
 I am not a  biblical scholar, but apparently, the bible adds that 
 it is within gods  grace for a man to *lay* with  a woman in the 
 ways a man lays  with another man. 
 
 There is no sin that can not be  forgiven.

(Except, perhaps, for using the word lay when it
should be lie...)






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-25 Thread shempmcgurk

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 In a message dated 2/25/06 1:11:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  The  Bible says it is an abomination for a man to *lay* with  
 another man  they 
  way he would with a woman. (paraphrased). I think that gets  
the  
 point across 
  without being too  graphic.
 
 
 
 That's IT?
 
 Sounds pretty vague to  me.
 
 
 
 
 Shemp That's the only verse, from Leviticus, that I remember  off 
hand. I 
 pretty sure there is more. The Bible wasn't written in legalese as 
a  contract 
 between man and God. Could you imagine if priests and rabbi had 
to  be attorneys 
 as well? ROFLMAO!



Well, actually, isn't that precisely what the Talmud is...basically, 
volume after volume after volume of legalese of the contract 
between man and God?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, MDixon6569@ wrote:
 
   
  In a message dated 2/25/06 1:11:44 A.M. Central Standard Time,  
  shempmcgurk@ writes:
  
   The  Bible says it is an abomination for a man to *lay* with  
  another man  they 
   way he would with a woman. (paraphrased). I think that gets  
 the  
  point across 
   without being too  graphic.
  
  That's IT?
  
  Sounds pretty vague to  me.
  
  Shemp That's the only verse, from Leviticus, that I remember  off 
  hand. I pretty sure there is more. The Bible wasn't written in 
  legalese as a  contract between man and God. Could you imagine if 
  priests and rabbi had to  be attorneys as well? ROFLMAO!
 
 Well, actually, isn't that precisely what the Talmud is... 
 basically, volume after volume after volume of legalese of the 
 contract between man and God?

Between Jews and God, yes, indeed, that is exactly
what it is (the contract itself is what Leviticus
is, the book where we find the passage MDixon cites).

He needs to brush up on his religious history just
a bit, I think.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-25 Thread shempmcgurk

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk shempmcgurk@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, MDixon6569@ wrote:
  

   In a message dated 2/25/06 1:11:44 A.M. Central Standard 
Time,  
   shempmcgurk@ writes:
   
The  Bible says it is an abomination for a man to *lay* 
with  
   another man  they 
way he would with a woman. (paraphrased). I think that gets  
  the  
   point across 
without being too  graphic.
   
   That's IT?
   
   Sounds pretty vague to  me.
   
   Shemp That's the only verse, from Leviticus, that I remember  
off 
   hand. I pretty sure there is more. The Bible wasn't written in 
   legalese as a  contract between man and God. Could you imagine 
if 
   priests and rabbi had to  be attorneys as well? ROFLMAO!
  
  Well, actually, isn't that precisely what the Talmud is... 
  basically, volume after volume after volume of legalese of the 
  contract between man and God?
 
 Between Jews and God, yes, indeed, that is exactly
 what it is (the contract itself is what Leviticus
 is, the book where we find the passage MDixon cites).
 
 He needs to brush up on his religious history just
 a bit, I think.


When I was a student at MIU, I remember browsing through the stacks 
at the MIU library and coming across an English translation of the 
Talmud.

Firstly, there were at least 20 volumes.  Secondly, there were all 
sorts of weird instructions.  Randomly, I picked up a volume and 
there were page upon page upon page on how a carpenter was supposed 
to pick up wood, cut it, etc.  I couldn't believe it!  There were 
instructions and laws and rules on pretty much anything you could 
think of!






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ 
 wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, shempmcgurk 
shempmcgurk@ 
  wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, MDixon6569@ wrote:
   
 
In a message dated 2/25/06 1:11:44 A.M. Central Standard 
 Time,  
shempmcgurk@ writes:

 The  Bible says it is an abomination for a man to *lay* 
 with  
another man  they 
 way he would with a woman. (paraphrased). I think that 
gets  
   the  
point across 
 without being too  graphic.

That's IT?

Sounds pretty vague to  me.

Shemp That's the only verse, from Leviticus, that I remember  
 off 
hand. I pretty sure there is more. The Bible wasn't written 
in 
legalese as a  contract between man and God. Could you 
imagine 
 if 
priests and rabbi had to  be attorneys as well? ROFLMAO!
   
   Well, actually, isn't that precisely what the Talmud is... 
   basically, volume after volume after volume of legalese of 
the 
   contract between man and God?
  
  Between Jews and God, yes, indeed, that is exactly
  what it is (the contract itself is what Leviticus
  is, the book where we find the passage MDixon cites).
  
  He needs to brush up on his religious history just
  a bit, I think.
 
 When I was a student at MIU, I remember browsing through the stacks 
 at the MIU library and coming across an English translation of the 
 Talmud.
 
 Firstly, there were at least 20 volumes.  Secondly, there were all 
 sorts of weird instructions.  Randomly, I picked up a volume and 
 there were page upon page upon page on how a carpenter was supposed 
 to pick up wood, cut it, etc.  I couldn't believe it!  There were 
 instructions and laws and rules on pretty much anything you could 
 think of!

Yup.  That's what the Jews agreed to at Mount Sinai:
complete, utter, unquestioning obedience to God in
all things.

If you read some Talmudic discussion, and then read
some of the closely reasoned constitutional opinions
from a U.S. high court, you might be struck by the
stylistic resonances.

It should also be borne in mind that some of the
pickier stuff in the Talmud, while it does apply to
the particular actions in question, also involves
establishing precedent in interpreting the Law that
then becomes the basis for interpreting the Law in
more consequential matters.  There's a lot of
*process* involved, in other words.






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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/25/06 1:10:06 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Well, 
  actually the Hebrew Scriptures are exactly,precisely that, as far as 
  Judaism is concerned.Have you really never heard of the Covenant 
  betweenGod and His Chosen People?And as to rabbis being lawyers, 
  have you neverheard the provisions of the Covenant, especiallyin 
  Leviticus, being referred to as the Law?

Yes Judy, a covenant , however I'm referring to the legalese 
one would hear in today's laws... the party of the first part shall be referred 
to as... As for the men of Sodom being homosexual?Read it for 
yourself Genesis 19:3 thru 9and Judges 19:22. Yes they were at least 
bi-sexual because they demanded to have sex with the "strangers" that Lot had 
brought to his home for safe keeping that evening. The men of Sodom tried to 
break into Lot's home to rape the guests and Angels blinded the men of Sodom to 
make their escape along with Lot's family.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/25/06 1:56:16 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Shemp That's the only verse, from Leviticus, that I remember off 
  hand. I  pretty sure there is more. The Bible wasn't written in 
  legalese as a contract  between man and God. Could you 
  imagine if priests and rabbi had to be attorneys  as well? 
  ROFLMAO!Well, actually, isn't that precisely what the 
  Talmud is...basically, volume after volume after volume of "legalese" of 
  the contract between man and God?

Shemp just as I explained to Judy, yes that's is exactly what 
the Talmud is, a promise from God, however my definition of legalese is probably 
far different than what yours may be. I'm referring to legalese as the technical 
terms used today in the practice of modern civil law. Open a contract for a new 
house today and compare it to the contract between Abraham and God 
linguistically. 





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/25/06 2:00:21 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Well, 
  actually, isn't that precisely what the Talmud is...  basically, 
  volume after volume after volume of "legalese" of the  contract 
  between man and God?Between Jews and God, yes, indeed, that is 
  exactlywhat it is (the contract itself is what Leviticusis, the book 
  where we find the passage MDixon cites).He needs to brush up on his 
  religious history justa bit, I think.

"Legalese" according to the Merriam Webster Dictionary is "the 
specialized language of the legal profession" as opposed to plain talk or in the 
case of Leviticus "scriptural reference". My religious history is fine it's your 
understanding of the word "legalese" that is the problem, I 
think.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 In a message dated 2/25/06 1:10:06 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
 Well,  actually the Hebrew Scriptures are exactly,
 precisely that, as far as  Judaism is concerned.
 
 Have you really never heard of the Covenant  between
 God and His Chosen People?
 
 And as to rabbis being lawyers,  have you never
 heard the provisions of the Covenant, especially
 in  Leviticus, being referred to as the Law?
 
 Yes Judy, a covenant , however I'm referring to the legalese  one 
would hear 
 in today's laws... the party of the first part shall be referred  
to as... 

OK, what you said was that it wasn't a *contract*
between humans and God; but that's what it is, and
rabbis *do* have to interpret it like lawyers.

As 
 for the men of Sodom  being homosexual? Read it for  yourself 
 Genesis 19:3 thru 9 and Judges 19:22. Yes they were at least  bi-
 sexual because they demanded to have sex with the strangers that 
 Lot had  brought to his home for safe keeping that evening. The men 
 of Sodom tried to  break into Lot's home to rape the guests and 
 Angels blinded the men of Sodom to  make their escape along with 
 Lot's family.

Let me ask it this way: Do you think they wanted to
rape Lot's visitors because they were horny?  In
other words, was the point sexual gratification?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  
 In a message dated 2/25/06 1:56:16 P.M. Central Standard Time,  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
   Shemp That's the only verse, from Leviticus, that I remember  
off  
 hand. I 
  pretty sure there is more. The Bible wasn't written in  legalese 
as 
 a  contract 
  between man and God. Could you  imagine if priests and rabbi had 
 to  be attorneys 
  as well?  ROFLMAO!
 
 Well, actually, isn't that precisely what the  Talmud 
is...basically, 
 volume after volume after volume of legalese of  the contract 
 between man and God?
 
 Shemp just as I explained to Judy, yes that's is exactly what  the
 Talmud is, a promise from God

No, that's *Torah*.  Torah is the contract, with the
stipulations and provisions.  Talmud is how the rabbis
interpreted the contract.

Roughly speaking, Torah is like the U.S. Constitution,
and Talmud is like all the Supreme Court's rulings
applying the Constitution to specific cases.

 however my definition of legalese is probably  far 
 different than what yours may be. I'm referring to legalese as the 
technical  terms 
 used today in the practice of modern civil law. Open a contract for 
a new  
 house today and compare it to the contract between Abraham and God  
 linguistically.

The Law as laid down in the Torah was in what amounted
to legalese of the time.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/25/06 5:22:13 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Let me 
  ask it this way: Do you think they wanted torape Lot's visitors because 
  they were horny? Inother words, was the point sexual 
  gratification?

Would it matter? Would the act be justified if it were just a 
power trip? Or justified if it were for shear 
pleasure?





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...







In a message dated 2/25/06 5:28:43 P.M. Central Standard Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
The Law 
  as laid down in the Torah was in what amountedto legalese of the 
  time.

I wouldn't presume to know that. However it might be funny to 
hear Leviticus redone in modern day legalese.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...

2006-02-25 Thread Sal Sunshine

What I have always understood about the Talmud was that it was a commentary on every aspect of the Torah that the rabbis writing it could come up with, the Torah being the basis of Jewish law.  

x-tad-biggerTraditional Judaism has always held that the books of the /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggerTanakh/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger were transmitted in parallel with a living, /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggeroral tradition/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger. Thus, the /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggerTorah/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger - the Law or Instruction - is the /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggerwritten law/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger, while the /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggeroral law/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger deals with its application and elaborates on its meaning. The Talmud, ultimately, constitutes the authoritative /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggerredaction/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger of this tradition. It is thus the major influence on /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggerJewish belief and thought/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger. Furthermore, although not a formal legal code, it is the basis for all later /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggercodes of Jewish law/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger, and thus continues to exert a major influence on /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggerHalakha/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger and Jewish religious practice. (See /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggerMaimonides/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger introduction to the /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggerMishneh Torah/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger /x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger[1]/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger.) The Talmud is arranged content-wise by Order and by Tractate; while conceptually, it is divided into two parts: /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggerMishna/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger and /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggerGemara/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger. There is also a distinction between /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggerHalakha/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger (/x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggernormative/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger, legal focused material) and /x-tad-biggerx-tad-biggerAggadah/x-tad-biggerx-tad-bigger (non-normative material).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud
/x-tad-bigger

On Feb 25, 2006, at 1:55 PM, shempmcgurk wrote:

 Well, actually, isn't that precisely what the Talmud is...basically, 
 volume after volume after volume of legalese of the contract 
 between man and God?

[FairfieldLife] Re: Speaking of homosexuality...