subject:"Re\: \[FairfieldLife\] Re\: Proclaiming ones enlightenment"

--- jim_flanegin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Why would one imagine they are an ostrich if they
> are
> > not?
> > 
> Yeah- it does get a little hypothetical. I guess
> you'd have to ask the 
> ostrich...

I could pretend I was a doumbek

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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread Paula Youmans














I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that
I
was enlightened, so there.





 

Haha…have you ever had someone tell
you that you had reached enlightenment? 

It’s a lot like someone informing
you of a past life you don’t remember; or getting the gas bill:

 

“Okeedoke, I’ll take your word
for it” lol

 

Seriously…how does anyone ever
know???

 

 

 





 










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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- jim_flanegin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> Full awareness,
> > but no "I" to lay claim to be doing anything.
> There is
> > nobody home, but all the lights are on and
> everything 
> > is working just fine. That sense of "I" is just a
> very
> > subtle thought. Self-inquiry will reveal this.  
> 
> Although "I" no longer exists, do you find that you
> can think that 
> very subtle thought anyway, if you choose to?

Why would one imagine they are an ostrich if they are
not?

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- sparaig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In 
> FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,
> "tomandcindytraynoratfairfieldlis" 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Tom T:
> > > I have two friends who are Enlightened 
> > 
> > Spare egg writes:
> > And you know this because?
> > 
> > Tom T:
> > Takes one to know one. and as Rick insinuated I
> know a lot more than
> > two. More like 32 or so. I was referring to these
> specific two who had
> > the same experience independently of each other.
> Your milage may 
> vary. Tom
> >
> 
> And you know you're enlightened, how?

I told Tom he was enlightened and he told me that I
was enlightened, so there.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment



--- Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> On Oct 13, 2005, at 9:44 AM, Irmeli Mattsson wrote:
> 
> > It puzzles me also, why people, when they stop
> identifying the 'I'
> > with an image of one's personal self, say there is
> no 'I' anymore.
> >
> > The `I' is the subject, who feels, sees,
> interprets and evaluates
> > situations, makes meaning, uses concepts like
> enlightenment in
> > communication, relates to others, is in dialogue
> with others. The
> > fact that something is being perceived is based on
> subject/object
> > dualism. The perceiver is subject, the perceived
> is object.
> > The `I', the subject, cannot see itself. If it
> can, there is an error
> > in interpreting. The subject can see only
> something that is object to
> > itself. In enlightenment this error vanishes. And
> another error seems
> > to appear, the idea that there is no `I'.
> 
> The whole topic is rather interesting. This would
> certainly not be  
> considered enlightenment IMO--merely a transitory
> realization that  
> "I" is empty and not "solid". Really from a Buddhist
> perspective, if  
> one is enlightened one does not claim it for a
> number of reasons--it  
> causes sentient beings to argue, it creates
> jealousy, etc. Therefore  
> a Buddha cannot make a declaration which will cause
> suffering.  From  
> that POV one who claims to be "enlightened"
> typically is not. I have  
> to wonder if that is one of the reasons the
> Surangama sutra is  
> mentioned in movement literature (and lectures)--so
> that people might  
> pick it up and read it. It details all the ways that
> people are  
> fooled into believing they are enlightened--and I'm
> sure this is one  
> of them.

Hence I call CC "baby realization." Just the first
experiential clarification occuring.


> 

> 
> 




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

--- Irmeli Mattsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

snip

> 
> It puzzles me also, why people, when they stop
> identifying the 'I' 
> with an image of one's personal self, say there is
> no 'I' anymore.

Because no "I" or psychological sense of "me" is
present. It can't be found. When people (in avidya)
say "me" they are refering to a sense of separate
individuality. An abstract, felt-sense of "me-ness"
that is private and distinct from others' "me-ness". 

> The `I' is the subject, who feels, sees, interprets
> and evaluates 
> situations, makes meaning, uses concepts like
> enlightenment in 
> communication, relates to others, is in dialogue
> with others.

Yes, this is all true in avidya. It is a
phenomenological reality. "I" exist, "I" think, "I"
feel, "I" interprate and evaluate, "I" make meaning.
There is always, except in deep sleep, this underlying
sense of "I".

> The 
> fact that something is being perceived is based on
> subject/object 
> dualism. The perceiver is subject, the perceived is
> object. 
> The `I', the subject, cannot see itself. If it can,
> there is an error in perception.

All this is true in waking state/avidya. 

> The subject can see only something
> that is object to 
> itself. In enlightenment this error vanishes. And
> another error seems 
> to appear, the idea that there is no `I'.

No, it is not an error. You are extending waking state
logic into realization and it falls apart there. In
realization no individuality or sense of "me" can be
located. There is thought, there is feeling, there is
everything just like waking state, but there is no "I"
or "me" present. It just can't be located! People say
your name as if refering to a "you," but there is no
"you" present.

This "I" is a delusion created by the identification
of pure consciousness with bound mind. Consciousness
projects into and identifies with a subjective object
and assumes the limitations of that object.
Patanjali's metaphor of the crystal gem assuming the
color of whatever it is placed on works well. The
crystal appears to be colored. I mean, damn boy, I can
see that it's colored! That's the phenomenology of
waking state. But consciousness is not bound by any
object even when it appears to be bound (hence the
you're already enlightened rap). The initial
stage/condition of liberation is this cessation of
projection/identification of counsciousness with
objects of experience. Once counsciousness "pulls
back" into itself there is no longer any
identification occuring and hence no boundary or
relative limitation to consciousness. Full awareness,
but no "I" to lay claim to be doing anything. There is
nobody home, but all the lights are on and everything 
is working just fine. That sense of "I" is just a very
subtle thought. Self-inquiry will reveal this.  

> 
> Irmeli
> 
> 
> >
> 
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread Vaj

On Oct 13, 2005, at 9:44 AM, Irmeli Mattsson wrote:It puzzles me also, why people, when they stop identifying the 'I' with an image of one's personal self, say there is no 'I' anymore. The `I' is the subject, who feels, sees, interprets and evaluates situations, makes meaning, uses concepts like enlightenment in communication, relates to others, is in dialogue with others. The fact that something is being perceived is based on subject/object dualism. The perceiver is subject, the perceived is object. The `I', the subject, cannot see itself. If it can, there is an error in interpreting. The subject can see only something that is object to itself. In enlightenment this error vanishes. And another error seems to appear, the idea that there is no `I'. The whole topic is rather interesting. This would certainly not be considered enlightenment IMO--merely a transitory realization that "I" is empty and not "solid". Really from a Buddhist perspective, if one is enlightened one does not claim it for a number of reasons--it causes sentient beings to argue, it creates jealousy, etc. Therefore a Buddha cannot make a declaration which will cause suffering. From that POV one who claims to be "enlightened" typically is not. I have to wonder if that is one of the reasons the Surangama sutra is mentioned in movement literature (and lectures)--so that people might pick it up and read it. It details all the ways that people are fooled into believing they are enlightened--and I'm sure this is one of them. IIRC it also prophecizes that at the end of the Kali yuga, large numbers of people who are not enlightened will surface, claiming to be.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-13 Thread Vaj

On Oct 12, 2005, at 9:43 PM, akasha_108 wrote:Does the switching experience I described correspond to any types of "standard" transmissions that you are aware of?Anything's possible but nothing specific I could add. Does the clothng I described, white cloak, hood, dark bue symbol laden embrodery ring a bell for any monastic or adept orders of children for which you are familiar? Either now/ 1960's or any time in the past?Not particularly although there is the white sangha (as opposed to the red one) which are lamas/gurus which marry (rather then being celibate), although they don't necessarily wear blue are part of their get up. I'm not real familiar with Chinese and Japanese spirituality other than Taoism. Are there / were there any 10 year old adepts doing such transmissions?Sure. Often reincarnated lamas, etc. begin teaching at an early age--some when they are half that age. But it just seems to fit together in a way. Maybe just an unknown, that is, unconscious (to me) ego mechanism flaming up to make me feel "spiritual".Perhaps, perhaps also a past life memory. In some cases, past life memories are only remembered towards the beginning of our lives, when we are children.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment



--- TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
> >
> > When I was around 9 or 10 my best friend and I
> used to
> > play this game. We would sit quietly and begin to
> > negate our experience piece by piece. We'd
> alternate
> > saying things like, "The tree in the front yard
> > doesn't exist. Your parents car doesn't exist.
> School
> > doesn't exist., etc." We'd slowly negate
> everything we
> > could think of. Finally we'd come to the end after
> > negating the entire creation and we'd negate
> ourselves
> > simultaneously. I remember there would be this
> > "explosion" of energy and we'd both freakout and
> run
> > outside screaming in delight.
> 
> So you're the ones who made my school disappear.
> I always wondered who did that, and wanted to
> thank them.

No problem, man.


  
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment



--- authfriend <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, akasha_108
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > As a kid, maybe starting at 8 or 10, I had a
> repeated "inquiry" -- I
> > was a curious sort of kid (as in inquisitive and
> odd). I kept 
> > looking at the sky and visualizing another kid my
> age -- in Japan 
> > actually -- though I had not much connection
> there. I think it was 
> > my idea of "as different and foreign as could be
> (this was around 
> > 1960). 
> > 
> > And I kept asking myself, what makes me different
> from him. It was
> > clear that there were surface differences -- that
> was the point in
> > choosing someone in a vastly different culture.
> But I was after the
> > question of identity: what is it that makes me
> "me" different from
> > what makes him "him".
> 
> I remember something similar to this, although much
> less elaborate.  I was a few years younger, I think.
> It suddenly occurred to me that other people must
> have
> a "me" inside them just as I did.  It felt very
> counterintuitive to think my consciousness was not
> the
> only consciousness, but it had to be the case
> because
> other people clearly behaved as though they had
> their
> own.  With considerable reluctance, I accepted that
> this was just the way it was, and it became part of
> my outlook.
> 
> I also remember, roughly around the same time,
> wondering
> what it would be like if I could stop thinking.  I
> tried
> and tried but couldn't do it.  Essentially, I
> realized
> that trying not to think was itself a thought,
> although
> I didn't phrase it that way to myself.  And I gave
> up,
> figuring that was just the way it was.
> 
> My memories of these two occasions remained very
> clear,
> though, and they came to mind immediately when I
> began
> to learn something about TM.  It was a source of
> some
> satisfaction to know my intuitions as a child had
> been
> on the money, if a bit frustrating that I hadn't
> been
> willing to trust them.
> 
> I suspect most kids have these moments.  If we could
> only get to them and confirm their insights before
> they give up and accept the Standard Model, maybe
> they'd be able to grow up enlightened.

When I was around 9 or 10 my best friend and I used to
play this game. We would sit quietly and begin to
negate our experience piece by piece. We'd alternate
saying things like, "The tree in the front yard
doesn't exist. Your parents car doesn't exist. School
doesn't exist., etc." We'd slowly negate everything we
could think of. Finally we'd come to the end after
negating the entire creation and we'd negate ourselves
simultaneously. I remember there would be this
"explosion" of energy and we'd both freakout and run
outside screaming in delight.




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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment












Or maybe it was "me" in the past,
transmitting to my future self, in
California, 1960. Ha ha, now thats funny. Then it was both
"Me" and "me".
*

 

I wouldn’t
be surprised in the least J












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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment











Hi again Akasha lol

 

This reminded me that I used to get really obsessed
with the idea that there couldn’t be a beginning because something would
have to “be” in order to begin anyway.

It drove me nuts. Still does. 

Crap…I shouldn’t have even
brought it up. Ugh. 

 

 

> Or thinking where does space end? Or what was
> there before the universe wa[s] created.




















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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

On Oct 12, 2005, at 8:45 PM, akasha_108 wrote:

> Or thinking where does space end? Or what was
> there before the universe wa[s] created.

Yes. I had the precise same thought processes. Frustrating as a 7  
year old with no one who could answer and adults increasingly  
projecting "weirdness".

Were you able to meditate on this?

I would bet you also wondered what was "there" before you were  
"born", no?

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

On Oct 12, 2005, at 4:02 PM, akasha_108 wrote:

> Vaj <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 12, 2005, at 2:10 PM, akasha_108 wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Enlightenment, connates, to me at least, an endpoint.
>>>
>>
>> Hmmm. Never got that., although unimpeded omniscience might seem
>>
> that way.
>
>
> Well it you may have a broader view than many. Why label some initial
> state with a high falutin term like "enlightenment". It never made
> sense to me.

Nor me. My lingering question having been a youngster when I started  
TM--as I strongly suspected we weren't being given the full picture-- 
was what did others have to say? Seven states of Consciousness? The  
Self resting in the Self? Eventually you get the answers. Look deep  
enough and you get the experiences too, not stuck on some initial  
experiences of clarity or bliss or the elements relaxing or calm or  
movement or presence.

> Maybe call it "first light" or "groggy, but eyes are
> open" or "ascended above sea level" or "less localized" (instead of
> "cosmic") or "release from prison to a half-way house with ankle
> braclet" instead of "liberation".

Yeah I remember after learning Sanskrit trying to find out what all  
the *real* words were for all the TM buzzwords and experiences.  
"Cosmic Consciousness" wasn't that cosmic at all, how disappointing  
and how enlightening. All it really means is "Beyond the Fourth".

It was interesting after TM daze to hang out with yogis who had  
profound experiential knowledge and seeing all these students who  
thought they were enlightened. A real learning experience.

>
>> But even Rainbow body is a beginning since they have the ability to
>> divide into tens of thousands of different manifestations, all
>> capable of incarnating or affecting other dimensions--and not
>> necessarily within linear time.
>>
>
> Yes. My point about the Rainbow Body was not that it is an endpoint,
> but that it is so far beyond the "no I" or other such "experiences" --
> that its silly to think one has reached the pinnacle of human
> development when they have that experience.  "First light", "groggy,
> but eyes are open" or "less localized" does not a Rainbow Body
> immediately make(eth).
>
>
>
>> One person I spoke to on retreat a number of years ago claimed that
>> M. did a lecture on the "absolute body" based on the cognitions of
>> Brighu rishi where he described these various bodies. I wish someone
>> would present a transcript--which used to circulate.
>>
>
>
> I heard the Brighu lectures. At least some. If I am recalling
> correctly, this was part of the discussions of immortality. A main
> point was that a state could be reached where the body just keeps
> renewing itself, and keeps changing.
>
> Which appears at least plausible given the knoweldge modern genetics
> -- where there appear to be genes that at a certain age, turn off the
> body's cells ability to continually rejuvinate -- and thus one gets
> older and finally, as renewel gets too sluggish, dies. If the "normal"
> continuously renewing ability of cells could be maintained, the body
> could last much longer if not "forever". I posted an article on rats
> where this has been done -- to a degree.

Yeah we had talked at little bit about aglets and the new research on  
that. Ultimately IMO, something has to give. You may extend life to  
several hundred years but it now appears the downside to this is you  
will simply digest time more slowly. You will move very slowly under  
that type of life extension. The Naths had better ideas which even  
Marco Polo got to see.

>
> The key was changing , changing changing. And M. emphasized "if we
> don't mind this "changing , changing changing" forever happening
> happening". To me it implied some pretty different and unexpected
> forms could be "changed" into.
>
> M. mentioned Vyasa, for whom "there is no record of his dropping his
> body". He played aronnd the edges of terming Vyasa an immortal. And
> being still here on earth. Himalayas I think was alluded to.

My Patanjali guru said there were at least six "Vyasas". Different  
people. Under Vaishnava influence, many works were attributed to  
Vyasa which never were his--most notably Badarayana.

>
> Soma was part of the story I think.

Oh ok. This sounds like it is part of the triple hut retreat thing  
(which was talked of but never materialized).

>
> Someone on an India course asked, perhaps after a similar lecture, why
> saints like Vyasa didn't visit? M. said something about such persons
> would not visit a groups so unclean. Not a dis on the group, but more
> an indication of the purity of the immortals.
>
> I assume Baba-ji, of Yoganada stories, is an immortal like Vyasa. As
> many possible residents of deep areas of himalayas and other places.

IIRC "Babaji" is "Goraknath" or an emanation thereof. The Naths were  
into the whole immortality trip.

> And ties to christ's "resurrection of the body" theme. Some in India /
> Tibet say Jesus came there after t

RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment











I’ve been slapped silly…a few
times lol. The ego loss was just the tip of the iceberg.

Getting rather used to it by now…and
each journey has gotten easier.

I feel like through meditation that I have
gained some control, but I have
far to go. 

 

I don’t mind one bit…I’d
rather be on the ride then standing in the sidelines watching others have all
the fun ;)

Hell, when it’s over I just might go
again if I can find another ticket lol!

 

Yes, completely outside mind …good way
to put it! I also like how in another post you mentioned the fullness of emptiness
J

 

 

 











Seems like you got "slapped" hard when that "I"
went.
I lost it leaving the dome one afternoon.
Consciousness withdrew back into itself and there
was
no "I" or individuality. The mind
freaked-out, but
everything kept on working all by itself.
Consciousness apperceived itself as a
"point". No
dimensions or time at all "in" that
point...no inside
or outside either! Completely outside mind.



















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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment











Thank you for the suggested reading!  I have
not read this yet… but I will J

 

I too was raised Christian (Catholic
actually) ….

You would not believe how incredibly fast
I had to dump out my belief system just to “get by”

 

I look forward to reading this stuff!

 

Oh, btw…people mentioned having a
master look at you and tell you “where” you have been or what it
was you reached?

Is that really possible? Where in the heck
do you find such people???

Not sure why that intrigues me…but
it does.

 











> > Paula, have you read ³Collision with the Infinite² -
> > http://tinyurl.com/exuwz
> > I think you would enjoy it.
> 
> Ditto on that. The story of a woman awakening
to the
> "horror" of the fullness of
emptiness.

Or the books of Bernadette Roberts; I think the
first
is "The Experience of No-Self." 
She's a Christian
contemplative who unexpectedly slipped into the
experience and had quite a struggle dealing with
it,
went through several stages, ending up in what
sounds
a lot like MMY's descriptions of Unity
consciousness.












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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Peter

--- Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> on 10/12/05 8:06 AM, Paula Youmans at
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> > Hello  I am very new on this list, but wanted to
> respond to this last bit. I
> > am one of those people who somehow managed to
> experience things in reverse
> > order. Strangely, it had the opposite effect on my
> ego...to the point that I
> > felt I wasn¹t even ³allowed² one.
> > The real point I wanted to make about reaching
> those experiences before proper
> > development is that it almost crippled my life as
> well as my mind. In my life
> > I would not change a thing about the way it
> happened, but I can see how it can
> > be both confusing and dangerous. Very dangerous
> actually.
> >  
> > I look forward to getting to know this list J
> >  
> > Paula
> > 
> 
> Paula, have you read ³Collision with the Infinite² -
> http://tinyurl.com/exuwz
> I think you would enjoy it.

Ditto on that. The story of a woman awakening to the
"horror" of the fullness of emptiness.

> 

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

On Oct 12, 2005, at 2:10 PM, akasha_108 wrote:Enlightenment, connates, to me at least, an endpoint.Hmmm. Never got that., although unimpeded omniscience might seem that way. The proposed model views the mapping of points in the multi-dimensional space as milestones or simple current mappings of ongoing trajectories -- with no necessary endpoint (or one so far "out there" is is silly to contemplate). Thus, in this models' view, saying there are 100 million different flavors of the rest stops of the many people on the "path" is correct and good. But saying there are 100 million flavors of "enlightenment" or endpoints -- that is "mu" -- none-sensical, in this open-ended framework -- where trajectories of growth can continue indefinately -- at least to rainbow body etc. But even Rainbow body is a beginning since they have the ability to divide into tens of thousands of different manifestations, all capable of incarnating or affecting other dimensions--and not necessarily within linear time.One person I spoke to on retreat a number of years ago claimed that M. did a lecture on the "absolute body" based on the cognitions of Brighu rishi where he described these various bodies. I wish someone would present a transcript--which used to circulate.

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment



On Oct 12, 2005, at 2:10 PM, akasha_108 wrote: Better yet would be a two dimensional scale, like an xy graph. It helps dispose of the linearity and alleged necessary sequence of "happenings".   For example, various peoples experience could be plotted on two characteristics of the "the experience" -- as a scatter plot. In terms of xy values, there may be individual experiences at points (1,2) (1,3) (4,4) (2,1) (2,2) (3,2) etc. While easier to simply plot visually, or draw on a blackboard, bear with me.  It provides a non-ranking way of viewing various types of awakening experience.  Experience (1,2) is different from (2,1) but clearly not "better". Though (4,4) is acknowledged as richer than (3,3). Have you seen Bentov's time/space/consciousness scale? That's the best experiential model I've seen conveyed. Very nice.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Rick Archer

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment





on 10/12/05 8:06 AM, Paula Youmans at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hello – I am very new on this list, but wanted to respond to this last bit. I am one of those people who somehow managed to experience things in reverse order. Strangely, it had the opposite effect on my ego...to the point that I felt I wasn’t even “allowed” one. 
The real point I wanted to make about reaching those experiences before proper development is that it almost crippled my life as well as my mind. In my life I would not change a thing about the way it happened, but I can see how it can be both confusing and dangerous. Very dangerous actually…. 
 
I look forward to getting to know this list J
 
Paula

Paula, have you read “Collision with the Infinite” - http://tinyurl.com/exuwz
I think you would enjoy it.






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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Peter

Seems like you got "slapped" hard when that "I" went.
I lost it leaving the dome one afternoon.
Consciousness withdrew back into itself and there was
no "I" or individuality. The mind freaked-out, but
everything kept on working all by itself.
Consciousness apperceived itself as a "point". No
dimensions or time at all "in" that point...no inside
or outside either! Completely outside mind.

--- Paula Youmans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi Peter and thank you for the welcome! Ha-ha.I hope
> it is a tough
> neighborhood! Good for learning :-)
> 
>  
> 
> I can talk about the experience directly, but am
> never sure "what" to talk
> about. To tell you the truth, I knew very little
> when it happened and I know
> even less now.
> 
> I'm not sure what anyone would like to hear. How it
> felt? How it changed me?
> Why it was difficult? What happened spiritually and
> physically? There would
> be so much to tell!!! 
> 
>  
> 
> Ego loss is a tricky subject for me, because when it
> is gone.there is no "I"
> to lose it. So in that regard, of course I have an
> ego lol. When "I"
> disappeared there was no "me" to experience it.quite
> literally. So did "I"
> lose ego? That is a good question. (Rubbing my chin
> in deep thought).
> 
> I will tell you the experience and let you decide. I
> was in water at the
> time what I consider to be me began to disseminate.
> The next thing "I" was
> aware of was the question "who are you?" The
> question reminded me that I
> did, in fact, exist..as I was trying to remember who
> I was, I felt the words
> "I am." coming from my own mind and everything came
> rushing back as I was
> launched out of the water. (I swear I felt a hand
> push me out of the water
> at the same moment I realized my legs could hold
> me). I most definitely
> would have drowned had it not been for whatever
> asked me who I was. 
> 
>  
> 
> So, is that what people mean when they reference ego
> loss? I'll never
> know..but it is what I mean when "I" say it ;)
> 
> There was no me.so how can I say I lost it? It just
> happened.It simply was.
> 
> 
>  
> 
> When I reference "I" now..it is a lot like
> referencing your hand. It is
> yours and you can use it and you can feel it.but it
> is not "you" complete. 
> 
>  
> 
> I sure hope I make sense lol. Words become so
> awkward in these subjects; at
> least for me they do. 
> 
>  
> 
> Someone told me once that "enlightenment" is not
> only being able to bridge
> into the "heavens"..but being able to go AND come
> back at will. 
> 
> I liked that.
> 
>  
> 
>   _  
> 
> Subject: RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones
> enlightenment
> 
>  
> 
> Hi Paula and welcome to our tough neighborhood! Can
> you talk about your experiences directly? You seem
> to
> have experienced a degree of ego loss, one of the
> points of enlightenment discussed here quite often.
> Do
> you have an ego now, or is there only "no thing"
> when
> mind tries to reference an "I"?
> 
> --- Paula Youmans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>   _  
> 
> 





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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment











Hi Peter and thank you for the welcome! Ha-ha…I
hope it is a tough neighborhood! Good for learning J

 

I can talk about the experience directly,
but am never sure “what” to talk about. To tell you the truth, I
knew very little when it happened and I know even less now.

I’m not sure what anyone would like
to hear. How it felt? How it changed me? Why it was difficult? What happened
spiritually and physically? There would be so much to tell!!! 

 

Ego loss is a tricky subject for me,
because when it is gone…there is no “I” to lose it. So in
that regard, of course I have an ego lol. When “I” disappeared
there was no “me” to experience it…quite literally. So did “I”
lose ego? That is a good question… (Rubbing my chin in deep thought).

I will tell you the experience and let you
decide. I was in water at the time what I consider to be me began to
disseminate. The next thing “I” was aware of was the question “who
are you?” The question reminded me that I did, in fact, exist….as I
was trying to remember who I was, I felt the words “I am…”
coming from my own mind and everything came rushing back as I was launched out
of the water. (I swear I felt a hand push me out of the water at the same
moment I realized my legs could hold me). I most definitely would have drowned
had it not been for whatever asked me who I was. 

 

So, is that what people mean when they
reference ego loss? I’ll never know….but it is what I mean when “I”
say it ;)

There was no me…so how can I say I
lost it? It just happened…It simply was.   

 

When I reference “I” now….it
is a lot like referencing your hand. It is yours and you can use it and you can
feel it…but it is not “you” complete. 

 

I sure hope I make sense lol. Words become
so awkward in these subjects; at least for me they do. 

 

Someone told me once that “enlightenment”
is not only being able to bridge into the “heavens”….but
being able to go AND come back at will. 

I liked that…

 









Subject: RE:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment



 

Hi Paula and welcome to our tough neighborhood! Can
you talk about your experiences directly? You seem
to
have experienced a degree of ego loss, one of the
points of enlightenment discussed here quite
often. Do
you have an ego now, or is there only "no thing"
when
mind tries to reference an "I"?

--- Paula Youmans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:


















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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

2005-10-12 Thread Peter

Hi Paula and welcome to our tough neighborhood! Can
you talk about your experiences directly? You seem to
have experienced a degree of ego loss, one of the
points of enlightenment discussed here quite often. Do
you have an ego now, or is there only "no thing" when
mind tries to reference an "I"?

--- Paula Youmans <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> Irmeli wrote:
> 
> 
> People can get enlightened without these inner
> structures. Then they
> tend to think they are fully perfect as they are and
> also superior
> beings. They desperately need their enlightenment to
> be seen, and
> themselves to be seen as superior, because that is
> their personality
> structure. The personal self, that cannot work with
> one's issues needs
> all the time adulation and a feeling of power to
> feel good about
> oneself. Problems are seen in the world. These
> people can create a lot
> of unnecessary havoc, but also help some in getting
> enlightened.
> 
> I personally think nowadays that it is probably
> better that people
> develop the inner structures mentioned above before
> the experience of
> enlightenment.
> 
> Irmeli
> 
> ***
> 
>  
> 
> Hello - I am very new on this list, but wanted to
> respond to this last bit.
> I am one of those people who somehow managed to
> experience things in reverse
> order. Strangely, it had the opposite effect on my
> ego...to the point that I
> felt I wasn't even "allowed" one. 
> 
> The real point I wanted to make about reaching those
> experiences before
> proper development is that it almost crippled my
> life as well as my mind. In
> my life I would not change a thing about the way it
> happened, but I can see
> how it can be both confusing and dangerous. Very
> dangerous actually.. 
> 
>  
> 
> I look forward to getting to know this list :-)
> 
>  
> 
> Paula
> 
> 
> 
>   _  
> 
> 




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment

On Oct 12, 2005, at 6:22 AM, Irmeli Mattsson wrote:When we discuss enlightenment the concepts we use tend to be quite confusing, because different individuals mean different things by those concepts. Interesting thing I've noticed is that of those of us who were weaned on the "7 states of consciousness" model, few seem to question it. If it is from "the Veda", where is it located in the Veda? What is it's description? Are they in a sequence (CC -> GC -> UC)? Based on how I understand `personal self' it doesn't go anywhere with enlightenment. What is gone is one's identification of the `I' with an image of one's personal self. In enlightenment the `I' becomes identified with the transcendental source and hence it becomes very stable in the turmoil of life. Nothing happens directly to the personality with its strengths and weaknesses. On the other hand the enlightened state of the `I' makes it much easier to work with personal issues and defects, because you can stay calm in blissful state in the emotional whirlwind and pain that regularly is part of a real healing. You must also have a personality structure that is capable of self reflection and of internally observing one's emotions and contradicting thought forms in order to be able to do transformative inner work. People can get enlightened without these inner structures. Then they tend to think they are fully perfect as they are and also superior beings. They desperately need their enlightenment to be seen, and themselves to be seen as superior, because that is their personality structure. The personal self, that cannot work with one's issues needs all the time adulation and a feeling of power to feel good about oneself. Problems are seen in the world. These people can create a lot of unnecessary havoc, but also help some in getting enlightened. I personally think nowadays that it is probably better that people develop the inner structures mentioned above before the experience of enlightenment.My feeling is get the experience of enlightenment first, gain the View of Unity. Have the Master check your View. Even if you cannot sustain it, at least you will no longer be in doubt, nor are you likely to hold any false intellectual views. Then all you have to do is "continue" and "babysit your rigpa (vidya)" as Willytex is fond of saying.

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RE: [FairfieldLife] Re: Proclaiming ones enlightenment