Dear All,
I agree with Krassimir's suggestions. Implementing them would relieve a
certain frustration one experiences. On the other hand, the discipline of
not posting more than two substantive messages a week, which should contain
something really new, is essential.
Joseph
- Original M
Dear Pedro,
I would be very interested, and I believe other FISers also, in your views
of the seriousness of the constructal law as a fundamental law of nature, as
claimed. I thought that for flow to occur it is sufficient to have some kind
of energy gradient which must operate in a context of
Dear Dr. Isiegas,
I will add my support to the extended concept of information that inheres in
the work of Robert Ulanowicz and John Collier. I would just add that I like
to call it information-as-process, to call attention to its 'structure'
being dynamic, with individual neurones involved in
Dear Carolina, Bob L., Bob U., Sören and Krassimir,
First of all thanks to Carolina for having launched a most interesting
thread, of which I have changed the title since the issues are broader than
that of Neuroinformation alone, as Francesco has noted.
My first point is a response to Sören
csson-Zenith
Sent: Tuesday, December 09, 2014 10:13 PM
To: l...@leydesdorff.net
Cc: Joseph Brenner; fis
Subject: Re: [Fis] Information-as-Process
The problem with this approach (and approaches like it) is that it is
descriptive and not explanatory. The distribution of the shape, in my model
Dear Ken,
Thank you very much for calling this volume to the attention of the group. It
was particularly important for me to see, as I might never have elsewhere,
articles such as the one on Parallax Ontologyand the Philosophy of Information.
The one criticizing the concept of Information Scien
Dear FISers,
I have no difficulty in understanding Loet's approach as measuring one form of
interdisciplinarity. However, it requires well-defined quantitative entities -
classes, categories and journal articles to which they apply. I thus do not
think that it exhausts the possibilities of the
Dear Srinandan, Dear John and All,
At the Vienna Information Summit, I will present a paper in the Symmetry
Section of Gyuri Darvas entitled "Symmetry and Information; Brothers in Arms".
I wished by this title to convey the idea that symmetry and information somehow
emerged together from a prio
Dear Colleagues,
I completely agree with Krassimir's position and on the importance of the issue
on which it taken. Neither he nor I wish to say that there cannot be models and
insights for science in religious beliefs, such as the Kabbala, but then John's
diagram would be more appropriate if i
- Original Message -
From: Joseph Brenner
To: fis
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 10:13 AM
Subject: Fw: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information - apologies!
Dear Colleagues,
I completely agree with Krassimir's position and on the importance of the issue
on which it
Dear Colleagues and Reasoned Opponents,
A scientific position may be the object of rational disagreement and
discussion, but the 'ganging up' of some individuals on a highly respected
colleague is disgraceful and unacceptable. By this note I am suggesting to
Pedro that Ericsson-Zenith, Sherman
h to the dynamics of information,
adding something to the 'how' side, but there is a lot more to be done here.
Best wishes,
Joseph
- Original Message -
From: Loet Leydesdorff
To: 'Joseph Brenner' ; 'fis'
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 12:42 PM
Subject: RE:
Dear Terry,
I agree with the distinction you make between the two types of properties
indicated, but I wish you had stated your point positively. I hope we are all
not so lazy as not to be able to use modifers such as 'meaningful' with
information,as Loet suggests. If one does not, does that me
critique of ‘it-from-bit’
and my ‘proposal’ for going beyond it.
Thank you and best regards,
Joseph
- Original Message -
From: John Collier
To: Joseph Brenner
Cc: fis
Sent: Saturday, June 13, 2015 12:45 PM
Subject: RE: [Fis] Philosophy, Computing, and Information
Dear Fernando and Luis,
Your paper is very rich and very serious, and so I hope you will accept my
slightly different perspective and see it as a basis for further foundational
work, rather than just criticism. I will first make just two comments here:
1. Matter is potentiality, actuality and f
Dear Fernando,
This is becoming very interesting. I understand your critique, but I do not
believe it applies exactly to what I am trying to say. I start from a position
that the apodictic statement by Wiener is not or in any case is no longer
valid. In my view, the following should be taken in
ents that
differ in their dimensionality, with meaning associated with the emergent
component with the higher dimensionality.
Curious,
Joseph
- Original Message -
From: "Robert E. Ulanowicz"
To: "John Collier"
Cc: ; "'Joseph Brenner'" ;
Dear All,
This note from Fernando clearly spells out his universe of discourse (practical
problems; everyday life). However, in stating that
> our "acts" are neither "actions" nor "events"... Our acts are
> phenomenological;
but that current information theory is only mathematical, dealing wi
Dear Mark,
Thank you for this note, which points correctly to the fact that there was
something missing in the debate. Intersubjectivity is a good word for it, but
phenomenology in general is probably no longer the answer, if it ever was.
Check out the new book by Tom Sparrow, The End of Phenom
Dear Mark,
I find much novelty in your interesting approach as I read your note of
October 1 and this one. This novelty should not be lost by imposing standard
patterns of interpretation on it. If we really believe "it's time we confess
in science just how little we know about language, that w
Dear Colleagues,
I am sorry but I cannot sit still when I see unqualified references to Niklas
Luhmann as some kind of unqualified genius. As far as I am concerned, the
situation has not changed since 2009 when I wrote the following in an article
"Prolegomenon to a Logic for the Information Soc
Dear Pedro, Dear FISers,
Pedro's note conveys very well the intellectual /Angst/ I and probably also
many of you feel confronted by the complexity of the 'crazy story' which we
are both tellers of and listeners to. Pedro's division into five domains of
knowledge (and knowing) is a very useful
Dear Pedro and Colleagues,
Pedro's note has brought out more clearly to me the concept of an
'Itinerary' as a path between Momenta. I for one would be willing to accept
the discipline that comments should address relations and movement between
Momenta in an AGREED UPON SEQUENCE. The one in Pedro'
Dear John and All,
I have read this paper, but it seems to me that the word 'idealization' has a
key place in it. Thus, the statement that 'quantum mechanics is about the
structure of information' begs the question of what information is being
discussed. Is it not conceivable, in the 'macroworl
Dear Nikhil,
I think it is a very interesting exercise to see how a consensus might be
reached on your work by both adding to and subtracting from the different
perspectives. Thus, I agree with Stan that we are looking at instances of
isomorphism at different levels, and this for me is entirel
Dear Pedro,
I agree with your presentation here of the dynamics of informational entities
and the necessary dominance of the informational realm. But my reaction to your
placing the energetic and informational realm in a kind of opposition was a
Capurrian 'hm'. What is still and will be always
rld,
precisely in those times: gun powder, magnetic compass, paper making,
printing press... in combination they formed sort of a "dynamite" that
exploded into the Medieval way of life.
All the best--Pedro
Joseph Brenner wrote:
Dear Pedro,
I agree with your presentation here of the
Dear Stan, Pedro et al.,
I think it is correct and useful of Stan to force ((;-)) us to keep in mind
questions of being and of our Being to which, today, we can bring an
informational perspective. I would just also like to recall that information
can be and is added in processes which evolve co
Dear Folks,
I do not wish to be negative, but I think this example is contaminated by a
homunculus. There are so much energy coming into the system from various
sources that the alleged result is not surprising. I would be glad to be wrong
but the decision should be up to someone like Terry wit
Dear FISers,
The most scientific aspect of the recent exchanges is their existence. It is
obvious that some people feel more comfortable than others in ascribing
properties to quantum particles that are characteristic of the thermodynamic
world in which we exist, in particular difference (let
Dear John,
Sorry you have been ill.
I agree fully with your statement: All of these explanations, and even stating
the problem, require information notions, not just energy as in classical
physics.
What I object to are statements or implications that information, whether in
boundaries or not
for reality and one for
mathematical reality. The key would seem to me to make sure they are used in
their proper respective informational domains.
Best,
Joseph
- Original Message -
From: Bruno Marchal
To: Joseph Brenner
Cc: fis
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 11:45
Dear Friends and Colleagues,
The last couple of postings have opened the discussion in a direction their
authors may not have intended. Bob's felt personal plea for a
phenomenological approach to biology, and hence to other sciences, and as
the foundation of a philosophy, begs the question of
Dear Folks,
In my humble opinion, "Mechanical Information" is a contradiction in terms when
applied to biological processes as described, among others, by Bob L. and his
colleagues. When applied to isolated DNA, it gives at best a reductionist
perspective. In the reference cited by Hector, the
Dear FIS Colleagues,
As I have noted on other occasions, Brian Josephson deserves our respect for
his fundamental discoveries in solid-state physics (the Josephson junction).
Unfortunately, a subsequent foray into physics - his alleged demonstration of
cold nuclear fusion - was a fraud.
Despit
Dear Pedro,
Most of us would agree that standard Western science does not give a complete
answer to questions about life and mind. As we try to seek better foundations
in general and for information science in particular, we may be able to benefit
from knowledge resources which have not been
scientific publishing, maybe we should get rid of the
neo-capitalist market system for this as well as other reasons! I also have
some comments on Bhaskar but I would like to read the article again. Many
thanks.
Best regards,
Joseph Brenner
- Original Message -
From: "Mark John
Dear Francesco and All,
The implications of your note go far beyond scientific communication as such,
but we can start here.
1. Francesco, you are entirely right to 'open up' the otherwise inert standard
concepts of probability to include a qualitative (subjective-objective)
component. You als
Dear All,
I agree with the consensus I see emerging. Andrei shows the problem of trying
to pin down a complex process with a single term - information. And I agree
with Rafael that information must have a valence. On the other hand, as such,
information cannot be completely defined mathematical
Thank you.
Joseph
- Original Message -
From: Karl Javorszky
To: Joseph Brenner
Cc: Terrence Deacon ; fis ; John Collier ; Gyorgy Darvas ; Bob Logan ; Andrei
Khrennikov ; raf...@capurro.de
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 9:43 PM
Subject: Re: [Fis] Is quantum information the basis of
gift to information
theory'. That principle should apply generally.
Thank you.
Joseph
- Original Message -----
From: Karl Javorszky
To: Joseph Brenner
Cc: Terrence Deacon ; fis ; John Collier ; Gyorgy Darvas ; Bob Logan ; Andrei
Khrennikov ; raf...@capurro.de
Sent: Mond
Dear All,
It is fascinating to watch the evolution of ideas about information as a
function of some new theories which beg for critique:
1. Andrei gives a correct explanation of the origin of Irreducible Quantum
Randomness. In my opinion, however, it is not necessary to assume that
randomnes
Dear All,
Pedro should be thanked already for this new Session, even as we welcome Andrew
and Alexander. The depth of your work facilitates rigorous discussion of
serious philosophical as well as scientific issues.
In Pedro's note of 2016.11.24 there is the following:
"Somehow, the projection
Dear FISers,
At the risk of attracting the anger of all the mathematicians in the group, I
will agree with Arturo, contra Krassimir. For a non-mathematician like me, a
description of complex dynamic processes such as consciousness and information
can be partly mathematical but need not involve
Dear Folks,
Arturo wrote:
"therefore logic, in general, cannot be anymore useful in the description of
our world. I'm sad about that, but that's all."
The answer is to change logic from one of propositions (Lesniewski-Tarski) or
mathematics (Zermelo-Fraenkel) to one of the states of real pro
- Original Message -
From: Joseph Brenner
To: fis
Cc: tozziart...@libero.it
Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2016 3:15 PM
Subject: Fw: [Fis] Fwd: R: Re: Who may proof that consciousness is an Euclidean
n-space ??? Logic
Dear Folks,
Arturo wrote:
"therefore logic, in general, c
orsuk-Ulam theorem, A and non-A become
T in a dimension lower…
Arturo Tozzi
AA Professor Physics, University North Texas
Pediatrician ASL Na2Nord, Italy
Comput Intell Lab, University Manitoba
http://arturotozzi.webnode.it/
Messaggio originale----
Da: "Joseph Brenner"
Dear FISers,
There is 'something' in Terry's approach that I would like to refer to as
wisdom. Wisdom need not be thought of as esoteric, but to describe at least one
further level of recursive information processing in which, echoing Terry,
absent properties are as essential as present ones. I
Dear All,
Happy New Year indeed! Let us all 'hope' (here OK) that 2017 does not turn into
1984. . .
Regarding the proposed discussion topic, I have two suggestions:
1) everyone should read, at least, the excellent and recent (Dec., 2016)
Wikipedia article on Small Black Holes, so that we can s
Dear All,
I am sorry but I am still not satisfied with the evolution of this discussion
to date. I am still looking forward to some explicit comment on my initial
question of why mini black holes would not evaporate. I note that both Alex and
Bruno asked the same question, before we have seen G
Dear Pedro and All,
Thanks to Pedro again for this thought-provoking theme. We are all in states of
greater or lesser ignorance regarding it!
Here is just, again, a thought about your quote of Conrad: "when we look at a
biological system we are looking at the face of the underlying physics of t
Dear Jesse,
Welcome to the group and thank you for your thoughtful presentation of a view
of information. I would call this this standard physicalist view and say that
while it applies in some simple cases, it does not capture the complex process
that is represented by the word 'information'. P
osophers would be very interesting. In
order to warm up the discussion, may I ask John Collier, Joseph Brenner and
Rafael Capurro to send some initial comments / criticisms? Later on, if the
commentators idea flies, Koichiro Matsuno and Wolfgang Hofkirchner would be
very valuable voices to put
about organizing the present discussion, I bet I was too
optimistic with the commentators scheme. In any case, for having a first glance
on the whole scheme, the opinions of philosophers would be very interesting. In
order to warm up the discussion, may I ask John Collier, Joseph Brenner
Dear Gordana and Friends,
In 2002, the cybernetician Stephen Wolfram published a massive book with the
title, A New Kind of Science. For me, it was not: it was an attempt to explain
the simplest, quasi-non-living structures of living systems by recourse to
simple algorithms and a multitude of f
Dear Gordana, Dear All,
In a few carefully chosen words, Gordana has established a 'two faces' picture
of 'agency', involving energy where it should be and with reference to several
levels (the limit cases). All this is within the principles of physics, closure
and completeness, with no arbitra
Dear Arturo,
I think this formulation is correct and very useful. It implies, in the formal
sense of real implication, a dynamics of emergence of the more complex states.
Gerhard Luhn has also pointed to this emergence (he calls it of 'new laws') as
a property of the universe, of which are our
Dear Colleagues,
In all humility, I have asked why a non-standard logic of processes might not
transcend our specializations as part of the 'provisional solution'. I would
still hope to get a response to my question in this cosmic cycle . . .
If we look at Terry's note of October 25, we can see
Dear Colleagues,
When I was working in the chemical industry, my company was often confronted
with very difficult competitive situations. The response of some co-workers was
to propose projects which offered rapid, low-cost, almost magic solutions.
Unfortunately, these people offered no scien
Dear Colleagues,
This is simply to register a dissenting opinion, for similar reasons, with the
last two notes, if nothing else to say that there can be one:
1. Regarding John C.'s view of the value of Pierce, there can be no common
ground. Scholastic, propositional logic is part of the proble
- Original Message -----
From: Jose Javier Blanco Rivero
To: Joseph Brenner
Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Fis] Fw: Idealism and Materialism - and Empiricism
Dear Joseph,
Luhmann's concept of meaning (Sinn) is defined exactly as the unity of the
difference b
Dear All,
Terry's phrase deserves at least the attention, if not the agreement of all of
us. In my view, qualitative terms belong in science if they follow some sort of
logic. There are risks, of fraud and pseudo-science, but these risks cannot be
avoided in reality by relying on mathematics al
Dear Pedro, Dear FISers,
I regret that I have difficulty in relating to the current FIS discussion,
but that is my problem. I see little progress since the appearance of
Lupasco's physical - biological - contradictorial information; Kauffman,
Logan's biotic and Ulanowicz' apophatic information;
?
_
From: Søren Brier [mailto:sbr@cbs.dk]
Sent: samedi, 16 décembre 2017 13:28
To: Joseph Brenner; fis
Subject: RE: [Fis] Comes the Revolution
Dear Joseph
This very Peircean of you as The challenge is to reconcile our roles as
informational organisms and agents within nature and as stewards
lly, "con-versare". "to turn together". dancing! Does this
fit?
A further point is to then ask whether a logic of evolutionary biology
is a logic of recursive transductions over history. The critical point
is what Joseph Br
Dear All,
The problem that I see with the approach of Sungchul and others like it is
its reference to data, specifically, quantitative data or their semiotic
equivalent. Without a robust theory of information-as-process, there is no
way of capturing the qualitative aspects of information and com
Dear All again,
Terry has introduced an absolutely essential concept on which we need to
focus, that of a generative logic of informational relationships. I would
just like to point out that we are not starting from zero. Some of us, for
example Mark J. and I have already recognized the need for
Perhaps you will also be interested in my brief comments on
information-as-process in my 2011 paper in Information 2(3), 560-578. It
seems a bit too simple to say that a computer, machine, whatever can process
all reflections if these include high-level complex exchanges of energy in
and between hu
Dear All,
Information is physical and non-physical, simultaneously and sequentially.
Best regards,
Joseph
_
From: Fis [mailto:fis-boun...@listas.unizar.es] On Behalf Of
tozziart...@libero.it
Sent: jeudi, 31 mai 2018 08:34
To: fis@listas.unizar.es; Emanuel Diamant
Subject: Re: [Fi
Stan,
Good, but things can also run in the opposite direction. How about variety
(plus more energy) generating more variety, more possibilities and allowing
new information to emerge? Standard logical analysis is inadequate because
it cannot handle this picture.
Joseph
_
From: Fis
The utility of logarithms? I've always thought using a slide rule was more
esthetic than pushing buttons on a calculator. Perhaps few people still know
what a slide rule can do. Of course, the result might be a little less
accurate . . .
Best,
Joseph
-Original Message-
From: Fis [mailt
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