test 24.05.02 9:54

[Vladimir Maslov]

Hello ,

  

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Best regards,
 Vladimir  mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]



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Divorcing karma from CVS access? (Re: Vicious Abuse?)

[Jeff Turner]

On Sat, May 25, 2002 at 03:51:54PM +0100, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> "Jeff Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > .. and thankful that people like Costin persevere in spite of rather
> > vicious abuse.
> 
> Vicious abuse? All I am proposing is to add greater flexibility to the
> freedom of those who are involved with the Jakarta project.

I was objecting to unprovoked Costin-bashing outside tomcat-dev, not
your proposal. People outside tomcat-dev may not understand why a PMC
member deserved your comments ;P

As for your proposal, a few thoughts:

- AFAIK there is no requirement that a committer be a coder. See the
  definition on http://jakarta.apache.org/site/roles.html. An example:
  Diana Shannon voted as a Cocoon committer, for volunteering to
  coordinate docs:
  http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=10189649374&r=1&w=2

- Your proposal redefined 'contributor' to include CVS access, and I
  think that will cause confusion with the existing, looser meaning.

- (random thoughts..) The whole notion of defining a person's worth in
  terms of their CVS access seems backwards and wrong. The
  'committer/non-committer' dividing line is an artifact of CVS's
  coarse-grained access control, and will disappear once we migrate to
  Subversion or whatever. It would be nice if there was a 'rating'
  system that didn't hijack the versioning system's terminology. Karma
  rated on a different scale to CVS access. Then there could be a
  one-way mapping, X karma -> Y CVS access. The karma system could be
  something like advogato's (http://www.advogato.org/trust-metric.html
  http://www.advogato.org/person/).


--Jeff

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RE: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[costinm]

On Sun, 26 May 2002, Ignacio J. Ortega wrote:

> but all i can say from the history i know, that you are simply suffering
> some kind of father syndrome, like those fathers that, when his children

Stop reading Freud :-) ! 

We need to add as commiters not only a lawyer, but also a shrink now.

Costin


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RE: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Ignacio J. Ortega]

> De: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Enviado el: sábado 25 de mayo de 2002 19:52

> 
> If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), what is 
> the way that
> this community has to decide whether a person is a committer 
> or not, given
> that as it is today, you're not recognized as a member of 
> this community if
> you don't have a CVS account, and your name is not listed in 
> $CVSROOT/avail
> 
> Pier

I Disagree completely..

Mail archives prove you wrong, althought many of the more vocal people
here are committers, nothing blocks anyone to give his opinion and his
vote,more this same thread proves you wrong too,  i can remember someone
someone was proposed last time as PMC member without being a committer..


I'm not the oldest here, 2'5 years, and my contributions are not bigger,
but all i can say from the history i know, that you are simply suffering
some kind of father syndrome, like those fathers that, when his children
grow up, doent want to loose the control they have over his lifes.

Your children is starting to be teenager, and hence dont feels his
father is so important or has the reason everytime, nor that is the
better and in addition is a little castrating as every father..  Well
time will get you to the right place.., now your children is walking on
the avenue ( making a girlfriend!!! :) and sometimes in the future, you
will get a friendship with him and he will learn to respect you..


Saludos ,
Ignacio J. Ortega


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Re: Objectbridge and JDO: Licensing issue

[John McNally]

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 11:00, Florian Bruckner wrote:
...
> > My understanding of this paragraph is, that we'd only be able the JDO part
> > of OJB under these conditions and only for research. This implies that
> we'll
> > not be able to release a "production quality" version of OJB-JDO. What we
> > jave to go for is a "clean-room" implementation, the requirements for this
> > are stipulated in the license of the JDO specification:
>

You state that this is a problem of moving to ASL. Is this not a problem
regardless of license?

Note that Apache has negotiated the ability to implement JSR's.  From
the press release 

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/jspa-agreement.html

"This is the result of extended dialog over the past year. Sun has
pledged to use licenses that enable open source independent
implementations for all its Java specifications and Test Compatibility
Kits. Sun has pledged this for all future Sun-led Java specifications as
well as key specifications already released."

Whether JDO is one of the "key" specs  is unknown by me, is there
somewhere where this list is available?

I also remember Jason van Zyl making a comment several months ago that
we had won the right to implement the JDO spec.  But I only say that so
that you may ask him where his info came from, or if I am recalling
correctly.  Do not take it to mean anything else than that.

john mcnally


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RE: Vicious Abuse?

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 18:22, Danny Angus wrote:
> I think what I'm trying to say is that if we want to reconcile the
> conflicting aims of having a small manageable group who can communicate, and
> *reach**decisions* easily with encouraging large number of participants it
> needs to be in some way fractal.
> 

This is why I think we need an infrastructure subproject for jakarta. 
Those who really care about what goes on site2 can join the
infrastructure project.  Those that actually contribute become
committers.

> What is there to be gained by giving every commiter access to jakarta-site2?
> or deadalus? filtering memberships & permissions and whatever else will
> strengthen, or at least not dilute, the "brand".
> 

whooa..ho ho..  Do you know what a pain it was to get the POI site up
with no direct access in the hands of any of the project committers? 
(The well meaning goal was to restrict access to the server)..  We had
to store all the generated HTML/javadoc/etc in CVS which was very
painful for our Australian committers/contributers.  While I don't think
everyone should have access, don't solve the traffic problem by shutting
down the road system.   

> Yet to encourage participation we need to have levels of membership which
> are comparativly easy to attain and bring with them some kudos.
> 

By demoting the committers?  Why that will bring them lots of warm
fuzzies.  

-Andy

> d.
> 
> 
> 
> > Naw, I like the PMC being elected by the greater body of committers.  I
> > think that keeps em honest.  There already is the ASF that functions
> > somewhat more as you say.  Jakarta is somewhat of a flat organization,
> > and I think thats a good thing.  Too many steps in the hierarchy and
> > sooner or later you have a bureaucratic unmovable body.
> >
> > -Andy
> 
> 
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http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

[Ceki Gülcü]

At 10:07 25.05.2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Ceki Gülcü wrote:
> >
> > The motivational power of appreciation cannot be underestimated. The
> > author is correct in emphasizing the point. What is not emphasized
> > enough is the need for direction. What's the use of having a million
> > volunteers if they all pull in different directions?
>
>Apache projects tend to attract an abundance of leaders.

I was not thinking of Apache or Jakarta.  My reading of the
article was "if you make your volunteers warm and cozy everything will
be fine" which is just wishful thinking.  I admit that this is an
incomplete reading of the Sean Haugh's article given that the issue of
leadership and direction is implied throughout the article--the
keyword here is "implied".

>- Sam Ruby

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Ceki


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[costinm]

On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:

> Nope, we shouldn't but we should give it to those who ARE interested in the
> future of Jakarta, or XML, and _do_stuff_ for those project, but are not
> "bound" to a particular codebase. We should change our "meter" from being
> you contribute CODE to the project, to you contribure WORK to the project.

AFAIK each project can decide and vote to give rights to anyone they
feel deserve it and puts work in the project.

There is no requirement that the work is Java or C - I think there are 
people who focus more on documentation and became commiters for that. It's 
up to each project to decide by the normal rules. 

If you want to propose a lawyer to become commiter on tomcat - I'll be 
more than +1 ( we need one to solve the mystery of the JMX and 
other licences, and that would be an important contribution and worth
of making him commiter ).

I don't think that having CVS access ( without knowing what CVS is )
will be a problem for him. And if he cares or not to vote - again
I don't care.

Costin


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[costinm]

On Sat, 25 May 2002, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:

> > I respect Craig mostly for the quality of his code ( even if I prefer
> > different solutions and we disagree on many other things ), I respect
> > Sam the most for keeping a low-key as 'PMC president' ( I never saw
> > him use the 'I'm the PMC chair' as an argument ).
> >
> > A smart idea ( like the try/catch unrolling ) is as important as
> > 100s of commits fixing bugs or 100s of mails answering questions.
> 
> If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), then why measure them
> at all?
> 
> BTW, this is not what you said some days ago:
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=102112907923436&w=2

I believe my message is:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=102130834717179&w=2

And I said exactly the same thing, that small commits are easier to 
review and putting a 'ranking' on a commiter ( by any criteria )
is bad ( not only number of commits - also age, how long he is commiter,
how many flame-wars he participates in or how many bugs he fixes, or 
anything else ). What it matter is that he moves the project forward
and contributes his time and inteligence to the community.  


Costin


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RE: Vicious Abuse?

[Danny Angus]

I think what I'm trying to say is that if we want to reconcile the
conflicting aims of having a small manageable group who can communicate, and
*reach**decisions* easily with encouraging large number of participants it
needs to be in some way fractal.

What is there to be gained by giving every commiter access to jakarta-site2?
or deadalus? filtering memberships & permissions and whatever else will
strengthen, or at least not dilute, the "brand".

Yet to encourage participation we need to have levels of membership which
are comparativly easy to attain and bring with them some kudos.

d.



> Naw, I like the PMC being elected by the greater body of committers.  I
> think that keeps em honest.  There already is the ASF that functions
> somewhat more as you say.  Jakarta is somewhat of a flat organization,
> and I think thats a good thing.  Too many steps in the hierarchy and
> sooner or later you have a bureaucratic unmovable body.
>
> -Andy


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RE: Vicious Abuse?

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 17:40, Danny Angus wrote:
> 
> > Is it a vicious abuse to ask to free this community from a concept like
> > "meritocracy as the number of lines of code you put into CVS"?
> 
> I'm lagging behind here.. but, if you'll humor me,
> IMHO its naieve, and potentially harmful for the project to have one type of
> membership, commiters, with many seperate entrance "exams" of different
> standards.
> It also provides too much privilege in one go.
> 
> I would suggest that there be two entry levels, commiter to a sub-project
> and non-coding-member (admin) for a sub-project, neither of which carry as
> many benfits/responsibilities as the proposed next level, commiter/admin of
> whole-jakarta (like current commiters), which in turn can become "member" of
> jakarta, with "members" electing the pmc. "members" would be the elder
> statesmen, and others elevated thanks to their contribution to the
> community, not just the code, eg jon,sam, et al.
> 

Naw, I like the PMC being elected by the greater body of committers.  I
think that keeps em honest.  There already is the ASF that functions
somewhat more as you say.  Jakarta is somewhat of a flat organization,
and I think thats a good thing.  Too many steps in the hierarchy and
sooner or later you have a bureaucratic unmovable body.

-Andy

> d.
> 
> 
> --
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-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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RE: Vicious Abuse?

[Danny Angus]

> Is it a vicious abuse to ask to free this community from a concept like
> "meritocracy as the number of lines of code you put into CVS"?

I'm lagging behind here.. but, if you'll humor me,
IMHO its naieve, and potentially harmful for the project to have one type of
membership, commiters, with many seperate entrance "exams" of different
standards.
It also provides too much privilege in one go.

I would suggest that there be two entry levels, commiter to a sub-project
and non-coding-member (admin) for a sub-project, neither of which carry as
many benfits/responsibilities as the proposed next level, commiter/admin of
whole-jakarta (like current commiters), which in turn can become "member" of
jakarta, with "members" electing the pmc. "members" would be the elder
statesmen, and others elevated thanks to their contribution to the
community, not just the code, eg jon,sam, et al.

d.


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

From: "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> "Nicola Ken Barozzi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > It does have the right to vote, but it's not binding (at least this is
what
> > Stefano told me two weeks ago).
> >
> > I don't want developers that are not committers to vote: a vote is
important
> > for the future of the project, and the future of Apache.
> >
> > Should we give votes to developers that are not interested in the future
of
> > Apache?
>
> Nope, we shouldn't but we should give it to those who ARE interested in
the
> future of Jakarta, or XML, and _do_stuff_ for those project, but are not
> "bound" to a particular codebase.

In cocoon, we have a documentation team now.
Documentation is in CVS.

IMO all should be in CVS, which is the project store, or the mailing lists.

> We should change our "meter" from being
> you contribute CODE to the project, to you contribure WORK to the project.

You contribute work? Ok, then you become a committer, that gets the *right*
to use the CVS, not the *need*.
If we trust him, why not give him CVS commit access?

I don't understand what rights you want to give to these "developers but not
committers".

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Pier Fumagalli]

"Nicola Ken Barozzi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> It does have the right to vote, but it's not binding (at least this is what
> Stefano told me two weeks ago).
> 
> I don't want developers that are not committers to vote: a vote is important
> for the future of the project, and the future of Apache.
> 
> Should we give votes to developers that are not interested in the future of
> Apache?

Nope, we shouldn't but we should give it to those who ARE interested in the
future of Jakarta, or XML, and _do_stuff_ for those project, but are not
"bound" to a particular codebase. We should change our "meter" from being
you contribute CODE to the project, to you contribure WORK to the project.

That's at least what I (and others) think should happen. I'll try to put
together a more "formal" proposal in the next few hours/days (now it's cats
time, food and entertainment is required by my two furry creeps)...

Pier

--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

From: "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> "Nicola Ken Barozzi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > What is the way that *any* community decides in voting?
> >
> > You *are* a member of the community even if you do not have an account.
> >
> > http://xml.apache.org/roles.html   :
> > "
> > Developers
> >
> > Developers are the people who write code or documentation patches or
> > contribute positively to the project in other ways. A developer's
> > contribution is always recognized. In source code, all developers who
> > contribute to a source file may add their name to the list of authors
for
> > that file.
> > "
> >
> > A developer *is* part of the community.
> >
> > This is how it works on the Cocoon, Forrest and POI projects AFAIK.
> >
> > It seems that you are trying to put on paper that developers that are
not
> > committers have to be listed.
> >
> > It can be done, but why?
>
> Nicola, you might as well ask Stefano who wrote that page... I want to
point
> out one little paragraph below the one you mentioned:
>
> "A Committer has write access to the source code repository and gains
voting
> rights allowing them to affect the future of the subproject."
>
> A developer, at the end of the day, doesn't have the right to vote. When
it
> comes to numbers, he is worth less than zero... I'm sorry, but this is how
> OUR reality is right now, because we didn't think about it in the first
> place when this project (or XML) were founded (and you can trust me
because
> I was there, both times)...

It does have the right to vote, but it's not binding (at least this is what
Stefano told me two weeks ago).

I don't want developers that are not committers to vote: a vote is important
for the future of the project, and the future of Apache.

Should we give votes to developers that are not interested in the future of
Apache?

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Pier Fumagalli]

"Nicola Ken Barozzi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> What is the way that *any* community decides in voting?
> 
> You *are* a member of the community even if you do not have an account.
> 
> http://xml.apache.org/roles.html   :
> "
> Developers
> 
> Developers are the people who write code or documentation patches or
> contribute positively to the project in other ways. A developer's
> contribution is always recognized. In source code, all developers who
> contribute to a source file may add their name to the list of authors for
> that file.
> "
> 
> A developer *is* part of the community.
> 
> This is how it works on the Cocoon, Forrest and POI projects AFAIK.
> 
> It seems that you are trying to put on paper that developers that are not
> committers have to be listed.
> 
> It can be done, but why?

Nicola, you might as well ask Stefano who wrote that page... I want to point
out one little paragraph below the one you mentioned:

"A Committer has write access to the source code repository and gains voting
rights allowing them to affect the future of the subproject."

A developer, at the end of the day, doesn't have the right to vote. When it
comes to numbers, he is worth less than zero... I'm sorry, but this is how
OUR reality is right now, because we didn't think about it in the first
place when this project (or XML) were founded (and you can trust me because
I was there, both times)...

Pier

--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]


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Re: FW: Howdy... just FYI, the bcel-dev archive mailing list linkis broken...

[Martin van den Bemt]

Someone beat me to it ;)

Mvgr,
Martin

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 20:07, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> bcel-dev is just not on mail-archive.com.. 
> It has to be subscribed, which I am trying to do currently ;))
> 
> Mvgr,
> Martin
> 
> On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 19:58, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > FYI, can someone with the right knowledge fix it? :)
> > 
> > Pier
> > 
> > --
> > [Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
> > sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
> > the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]
> > 
> > -- Forwarded Message
> > > From: Tom Copeland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 22:45:53 -0400 (EDT)
> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Subject: Howdy... just FYI, the bcel-dev archive mailing list link is
> > > broken...
> > > 
> > > on this page:
> > > 
> > > http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html
> > > 
> > > The link to these archives - http://jakarta.apache.org/mail/ - is fine
> > > though...
> > > 
> > > Yours,
> > > 
> > > Tom
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > -- End of Forwarded Message
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
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> 
> 



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Re: FW: Howdy... just FYI, the bcel-dev archive mailing list linkis broken...

[Martin van den Bemt]

bcel-dev is just not on mail-archive.com.. 
It has to be subscribed, which I am trying to do currently ;))

Mvgr,
Martin

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 19:58, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> FYI, can someone with the right knowledge fix it? :)
> 
> Pier
> 
> --
> [Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
> sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
> the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]
> 
> -- Forwarded Message
> > From: Tom Copeland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 22:45:53 -0400 (EDT)
> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Subject: Howdy... just FYI, the bcel-dev archive mailing list link is
> > broken...
> > 
> > on this page:
> > 
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html
> > 
> > The link to these archives - http://jakarta.apache.org/mail/ - is fine
> > though...
> > 
> > Yours,
> > 
> > Tom
> > 
> > 
> > 
> 
> -- End of Forwarded Message
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> 



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

From: "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> "Nicola Ken Barozzi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), then why measure
them
> > at all?
>
> If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), what is the way that
> this community has to decide whether a person is a committer or not, given
> that as it is today, you're not recognized as a member of this community
if
> you don't have a CVS account, and your name is not listed in
$CVSROOT/avail

What is the way that *any* community decides in voting?

You *are* a member of the community even if you do not have an account.

http://xml.apache.org/roles.html   :
"
Developers

 Developers are the people who write code or documentation patches or
contribute positively to the project in other ways. A developer's
contribution is always recognized. In source code, all developers who
contribute to a source file may add their name to the list of authors for
that file.
"

A developer *is* part of the community.

This is how it works on the Cocoon, Forrest and POI projects AFAIK.

It seems that you are trying to put on paper that developers that are not
committers have to be listed.

It can be done, but why?

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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Re: Objectbridge and JDO: Licensing issue

[Pier Fumagalli]

Florian, I believe that this is more-or-less (or falls really close) to the
issue that XML-Axis is having (but I might be wrong, Sam?)

Maybe Jason (our liaison with the JCP) can give us some light on this topic?

Pier

"Florian Bruckner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> I am sending this to the jakarta-general list because I hope that some of
> you can help us to resolve the following issue.
> 
> As you might remember, Objectbridge was recently proposed as a
> jakarta-subproject and accepted. This requires Objectbridge to change the
> license to ASL, which is perfectly ok for everybody there.
> 
> As far as I can see, a small problem arose a few days ago. Somebody added
> two jar Files of Sun Microsystems related to JDO (Java Data Objects, an API
> OJB plans to implement). One of those jars is of the reference
> implementation of JDO, one is either from the reference implementation or
> the specification.
> 
> The following paragraphs is from an email I sent to the Objectbridge
> Mailinglist, but unfortunately it didn't help to resolve our issue:
> 
>> jdo.jar and jdori.jar are part of the reference implementation of JDO from
>> Sun, and that is licensed unter the sun community source license. The
>> paragraph in question says:
>> 
>> "
>> a) Research Use License:
>> 
>> (i) use, reproduce and modify the Original Code,
>> Upgraded Code and Specifications to create Modifications and
>> Reformatted Specifications for Research Use by You, (ii)
>> publish and display Original Code, Upgraded Code and
>> Specifications with, or as part of Modifications, as
>> permitted under Section 3.1 b) below, (iii) reproduce and
>> distribute copies of Original Code and Upgraded Code to
>> Licensees and students for Research Use by You, (iv)
>> compile, reproduce and distribute Original Code and Upgraded
>> Code in Executable form, and Reformatted Specifications to
>> anyone for Research Use by You.
>> "
>> 
>> My understanding of this paragraph is, that we'd only be able the JDO part
>> of OJB under these conditions and only for research. This implies that
> we'll
>> not be able to release a "production quality" version of OJB-JDO. What we
>> jave to go for is a "clean-room" implementation, the requirements for this
>> are stipulated in the license of the JDO specification:
>> 
>> "
>> Sun hereby grants you a fully-paid, non-exclusive,
>> non-transferable, worldwide, limited license (without the
>> right to sublicense), under Sun's intellectual property
>> rights that are essential to practice the Specification, to
>> internally practice the Specification for the purpose of
>> designing and developing your Java applets and applications
>> intended to run on the Java platform or creating a clean
>> room implementation of the Specification that:  (i) includes
>> a complete implementation of the current version of the
>> Specification, without subsetting or supersetting; (ii)
>> implements all of the interfaces and functionality of the
>> Specification without subsetting or supersetting; (iii)
>> includes a complete implementation of any optional
>> components (as defined by the Specification) which you
>> choose to implement, without subsetting or supersetting;
>> (iv) implements all of the interfaces and functionality of
>> such optional components, without subsetting or
>> supersetting; (v) does not add any additional packages,
>> classes or interfaces to the "java.*" or "javax.*" packages
>> or subpackages or other packages defined by the
>> Specification; (vi) satisfies all testing requirements
>> available from Sun relating to the most recently published
>> version of the Specification six (6) months prior to any
>> release of the clean room implementation or upgrade thereto;
>> (vii) does not derive from any Sun source code or binary
>> code materials; and (viii) does not include any Sun source
>> code or binary code materials without an appropriate and
>> separate license from Sun.  The Specification contains the
>> proprietary information of Sun and may only be used in
>> accordance with the license terms set forth herein.  This
>> license will terminate immediately without notice from Sun
>> if you fail to comply with any provision of this license.
>> Upon termination or expiration of this license, you must
>> cease use of or destroy the Specification.
>> "
>> 
>> jdo.jar is also part of the specification, but paragraph viii contains a
>> clause that this .jar mustn't be used by a clean-room implementation as
> well
>> (and that is our goal, isn't it?)
> 
> Can we keep using these jars in Objectbridge or do we have to replace them
> with our own implementation to do the move to ASL?
> 
> TIA,
> Florian Bruckner
> 
--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]


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For 

Objectbridge and JDO: Licensing issue

[Florian Bruckner]

Hi,

I am sending this to the jakarta-general list because I hope that some of
you can help us to resolve the following issue.

As you might remember, Objectbridge was recently proposed as a
jakarta-subproject and accepted. This requires Objectbridge to change the
license to ASL, which is perfectly ok for everybody there.

As far as I can see, a small problem arose a few days ago. Somebody added
two jar Files of Sun Microsystems related to JDO (Java Data Objects, an API
OJB plans to implement). One of those jars is of the reference
implementation of JDO, one is either from the reference implementation or
the specification.

The following paragraphs is from an email I sent to the Objectbridge
Mailinglist, but unfortunately it didn't help to resolve our issue:

> jdo.jar and jdori.jar are part of the reference implementation of JDO from
> Sun, and that is licensed unter the sun community source license. The
> paragraph in question says:
>
> "
> a) Research Use License:
>
>   (i) use, reproduce and modify the Original Code,
> Upgraded Code and Specifications to create Modifications and
> Reformatted Specifications for Research Use by You, (ii)
> publish and display Original Code, Upgraded Code and
> Specifications with, or as part of Modifications, as
> permitted under Section 3.1 b) below, (iii) reproduce and
> distribute copies of Original Code and Upgraded Code to
> Licensees and students for Research Use by You, (iv)
> compile, reproduce and distribute Original Code and Upgraded
> Code in Executable form, and Reformatted Specifications to
> anyone for Research Use by You.
> "
>
> My understanding of this paragraph is, that we'd only be able the JDO part
> of OJB under these conditions and only for research. This implies that
we'll
> not be able to release a "production quality" version of OJB-JDO. What we
> jave to go for is a "clean-room" implementation, the requirements for this
> are stipulated in the license of the JDO specification:
>
> "
> Sun hereby grants you a fully-paid, non-exclusive,
> non-transferable, worldwide, limited license (without the
> right to sublicense), under Sun's intellectual property
> rights that are essential to practice the Specification, to
> internally practice the Specification for the purpose of
> designing and developing your Java applets and applications
> intended to run on the Java platform or creating a clean
> room implementation of the Specification that:  (i) includes
> a complete implementation of the current version of the
> Specification, without subsetting or supersetting; (ii)
> implements all of the interfaces and functionality of the
> Specification without subsetting or supersetting; (iii)
> includes a complete implementation of any optional
> components (as defined by the Specification) which you
> choose to implement, without subsetting or supersetting;
> (iv) implements all of the interfaces and functionality of
> such optional components, without subsetting or
> supersetting; (v) does not add any additional packages,
> classes or interfaces to the "java.*" or "javax.*" packages
> or subpackages or other packages defined by the
> Specification; (vi) satisfies all testing requirements
> available from Sun relating to the most recently published
> version of the Specification six (6) months prior to any
> release of the clean room implementation or upgrade thereto;
> (vii) does not derive from any Sun source code or binary
> code materials; and (viii) does not include any Sun source
> code or binary code materials without an appropriate and
> separate license from Sun.  The Specification contains the
> proprietary information of Sun and may only be used in
> accordance with the license terms set forth herein.  This
> license will terminate immediately without notice from Sun
> if you fail to comply with any provision of this license.
> Upon termination or expiration of this license, you must
> cease use of or destroy the Specification.
> "
>
> jdo.jar is also part of the specification, but paragraph viii contains a
> clause that this .jar mustn't be used by a clean-room implementation as
well
> (and that is our goal, isn't it?)

Can we keep using these jars in Objectbridge or do we have to replace them
with our own implementation to do the move to ASL?

TIA,
Florian Bruckner



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FW: Howdy... just FYI, the bcel-dev archive mailing list link isbroken...

[Pier Fumagalli]

FYI, can someone with the right knowledge fix it? :)

Pier

--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]

-- Forwarded Message
> From: Tom Copeland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Fri, 24 May 2002 22:45:53 -0400 (EDT)
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Howdy... just FYI, the bcel-dev archive mailing list link is
> broken...
> 
> on this page:
> 
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html
> 
> The link to these archives - http://jakarta.apache.org/mail/ - is fine
> though...
> 
> Yours,
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
> 

-- End of Forwarded Message


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Pier Fumagalli]

"Nicola Ken Barozzi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), then why measure them
> at all?

If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), what is the way that
this community has to decide whether a person is a committer or not, given
that as it is today, you're not recognized as a member of this community if
you don't have a CVS account, and your name is not listed in $CVSROOT/avail

Pier

--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Martin van den Bemt]

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 19:03, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> The action worthy of merit being: Surviving adolescence?

Too many words I need a dictionary for ;)) (it's hard to discuss stuff
you have to get out of a dictionary, so I will not try that)
I will conclude this day of way too little coding by using the footer I
just seen on Nicola's mail : 

- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)

Let's I made the choice to remain ;).


Mvgr,
Martin van den Bemt 


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
>
> > Just need to grep the right files... You are a good committer, I see
that
> > you have 2342 commits into the turbine CVS. Good.
> >
> > I still beat you, overall I'm at 10717, Andy is at 2666 (Andy you're so
> > lazy), but hear hear, Costin has 25871, beating Craig who is just at
22712,
> > and our president (Sam) at 60869... Yes yes, he deserves to be the PMC
> > president just for that...
>
> I don't think anyone can find a mail from Craig or Sam (or me) 'bragging'
> about the number of commits or how important of contribution we make and
> how people who contribute 'less' should pay attention.
>
> I respect Craig mostly for the quality of his code ( even if I prefer
> different solutions and we disagree on many other things ), I respect
> Sam the most for keeping a low-key as 'PMC president' ( I never saw
> him use the 'I'm the PMC chair' as an argument ).
>
> A smart idea ( like the try/catch unrolling ) is as important as
> 100s of commits fixing bugs or 100s of mails answering questions.

If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), then why measure them
at all?

BTW, this is not what you said some days ago:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=jakarta-general&m=102112907923436&w=2

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 12:53, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> > its a meritocracy. 
> 
> Thanx to the Oxfort dictionary I know what it is.. But all democracies
> are actually meritocracies according to the dictionary, they select you
> to be able to vote when 18+. But this is getting way to Off-Topic I
> guess... ;))
> 

The action worthy of merit being: Surviving adolescence?

> Mvgr,
> Martin
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
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Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
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The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

From: "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> "Nicola Ken Barozzi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > From: "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >
> >> Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the
> >> "right" to vote, but also the "due" to vote...
> >>
> >> This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country.
> >> Are we undermining that?
> >
> > No, it isn't.
> > In a true democracy, one has the right to abstain.
>
> Correct... In every official Apache ballot (foundation crap, legal stuff),
> you always have three options:
>
> [ ] Yes
> [ ] No
> [ ] Abstain
>
> But I feel it's a due for all foundation members to at least tick one of
> those boxes (got upset with a couple of very close friends of mine because
> they didn't show up at the members meeting last week)...
>
> You can abstain, but you shouldn't "ignore"...
>
> 
> Democraticamente parlando, cos'e` piu` giusto, votare scheda bianca o
> non andare a votare?
> 

 
 Democraticamente parlando, cos'e` piu` giusto, votare scheda bianca o
 non andare a votare?
 

Dipende dal messaggio che vuoi dare...

> (Translated it would sound like: what's more "right" democratically
> speaking, going to poll booth and put in an unticked voter's card, or not
> even caring about going to vote? - But I don't know if it makes sense in
> English... Andy?)

I always thought that voters has at least a "moral" due to vote.

But I have noted that when a democtratic system is sane, the percentages of
the two major parties are similar.
This keeps a healthy tension between them, that keeps the actions of the
ruling party in control.

I have also noted that high turnouts usually mean that the voters are upset
by something, or that the vote is particularly important.
These cases usually involve a lot of tensions.

Out of these simple observations, I have cone not to disdain low turnouts,
and appreciate the fact that there are really 4 votes:

 [ ] Yes
 [ ] No
 [ ] Abstain
 [ ] whatever

Don't we have a similar system (the +-0 is even more)?

+1
-1
+-0
no vote

These votes are different in meaning:

 [ 3] Yes
 [ 1] No
 [ 10] Abstain
 [ 1] Whatever

(I want you to take a decision on this matter, but I don't know what is
best; please try to lobby the -1 or find a compromise)

 [ 3] Yes
 [ 1] No
 [1] Abstain
 [10] Whatever

(I don't care whatever happens, you could even not decide on this issue and
drop it: if there is a -1, don't mind lobbying too much, I will never back
you)

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[costinm]

On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:

> Just need to grep the right files... You are a good committer, I see that
> you have 2342 commits into the turbine CVS. Good.
> 
> I still beat you, overall I'm at 10717, Andy is at 2666 (Andy you're so
> lazy), but hear hear, Costin has 25871, beating Craig who is just at 22712,
> and our president (Sam) at 60869... Yes yes, he deserves to be the PMC
> president just for that...

I don't think anyone can find a mail from Craig or Sam (or me) 'bragging' 
about the number of commits or how important of contribution we make and 
how people who contribute 'less' should pay attention. 

I respect Craig mostly for the quality of his code ( even if I prefer 
different solutions and we disagree on many other things ), I respect
Sam the most for keeping a low-key as 'PMC president' ( I never saw
him use the 'I'm the PMC chair' as an argument ).

A smart idea ( like the try/catch unrolling ) is as important as 
100s of commits fixing bugs or 100s of mails answering questions.

Costin


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Martin van den Bemt]

> its a meritocracy. 

Thanx to the Oxfort dictionary I know what it is.. But all democracies
are actually meritocracies according to the dictionary, they select you
to be able to vote when 18+. But this is getting way to Off-Topic I
guess... ;))

Mvgr,
Martin



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Pier Fumagalli]

"Nicola Ken Barozzi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> 
>> Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the
>> "right" to vote, but also the "due" to vote...
>> 
>> This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country.
>> Are we undermining that?
> 
> No, it isn't.
> In a true democracy, one has the right to abstain.

Correct... In every official Apache ballot (foundation crap, legal stuff),
you always have three options:

[ ] Yes
[ ] No
[ ] Abstain

But I feel it's a due for all foundation members to at least tick one of
those boxes (got upset with a couple of very close friends of mine because
they didn't show up at the members meeting last week)...

You can abstain, but you shouldn't "ignore"...


Democraticamente parlando, cos'e` piu` giusto, votare scheda bianca o
non andare a votare?


(Translated it would sound like: what's more "right" democratically
speaking, going to poll booth and put in an unticked voter's card, or not
even caring about going to vote? - But I don't know if it makes sense in
English... Andy?)

Pier

--
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sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Andrew C. Oliver]

LOL ;-)

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 12:43, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> Maven provides that functionality ;))
> see http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/activity-log.html
> 
> Mvgr,
> Martin
> 
> On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 18:28, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > "James Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > -- jt (who is afraid Pier will do a mailing list search on him and
> > > realize how little value he brings to the community =)
> > 
> > Sorry James, I just _had_ to do this! :) Nothing personal!!! :) :) :)
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Just need to grep the right files... You are a good committer, I see that
> > you have 2342 commits into the turbine CVS. Good.
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
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Java
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structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Andrew C. Oliver]

> No, it isn't.
> In a true democracy, one has the right to abstain.
> 
> IMO that a good democracy doesn't need strong feelings: many dictators go to
> power with a strong vote with a strong turnout, while one of the major
> democracies of the world, the US, doen't surely have one of the highest
> turnouts.
> 

For the record, technically the US is a democratic republic and not a
"Democracy".  The low turnout in part reflects that.  We vote *against*
things not for them.  Hence our representatives try to say next to
nothing that they could get voted against on.  (this isn't unpatriotic
or a complaint, its just facts).  As a test of this, be an incumbent and
run on something that people are against, make a racist comment or
something...you'll find your opponent does really well.  

For example.  I did vote in the last presidential election, but it made
little sense to do so.  The electoral votes in North Carolina were
decided LONG before I cast my ballet.  So in a sense, when it came to
actually picking the man, my vote actually did not count.  (You vote for
your states electors, the electors vote for the president...so if your
electors vote for the other guy...well your vote meant nothing on the
scale of things...if you don't win...your issues have to wait till next
time)

>From my understanding, in most European parliamentary democracies,
generally you vote for more issue-oriented parties.  Even if you "loose"
you take a certain number of seats.  So it makes sense to vote
regardless of whether its going to be a landslide.

But as far as I know Jakarta is not a democracy...its a meritocracy. 

-Andy

> Just my 2euros.
> 
> --
> Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> - verba volant, scripta manent -
>(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
> -
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
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structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[James Taylor]

> while one of the major
> democracies of the world, the US, doen't surely have one of the highest
> turnouts.

And a lot of people see that as a really bad thing. Turning in an empty
ballot is one thing, but not going to the polls because you can't tear
yourself away from 'Must See TV' is ignoring your responsibility as a
citizen.

-- jt


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Martin van den Bemt]

Maven provides that functionality ;))
see http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/activity-log.html

Mvgr,
Martin

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 18:28, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> "James Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > -- jt (who is afraid Pier will do a mailing list search on him and
> > realize how little value he brings to the community =)
> 
> Sorry James, I just _had_ to do this! :) Nothing personal!!! :) :) :)
> 
> 
> 
> Just need to grep the right files... You are a good committer, I see that
> you have 2342 commits into the turbine CVS. Good.



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

From: "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the
> "right" to vote, but also the "due" to vote...
>
> This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country.
Are
> we undermining that?

No, it isn't.
In a true democracy, one has the right to abstain.

IMO that a good democracy doesn't need strong feelings: many dictators go to
power with a strong vote with a strong turnout, while one of the major
democracies of the world, the US, doen't surely have one of the highest
turnouts.

Just my 2euros.

--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
-


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Martin van den Bemt]

> 
> Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the
> "right" to vote, but also the "due" to vote...
> 
> This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country. Are
> we undermining that?

Hmm.. democracy is also having the right not to vote. Just don't
complain if you don't like what happened after the vote..

Mvgr,
Martin



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Andrew C. Oliver]

> Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the
> "right" to vote, but also the "due" to vote...
> 
> This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country. Are
> we undermining that?
> 

you also have the right to abstain.  Sometimes you speak loudest by not
speaking at all.

> Pier
> 
> --
> [Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
> sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
> the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Andrew C. Oliver]

> Hints for newbies, make your CVS commits small, so your overall activity
> meter will grow. Two lines at a time, and if you have a nice file of 1000
> lines, you get 500 points just for that...
> 

I'll try and remember that next time.  

Can//;
  //;
   We //;
  //;  
  //;
get //;
  //;
  //;
  //;
a  //;
  //;
  //;
line  //;
  //;
count  //;
  //;
  //;
please?  //;

> 
> --
> [Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
> sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
> the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]
> 
> 
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Pier Fumagalli]

"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> 
>> Andrew C. Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 
>>> -1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.
>> 
>> It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
>> community, nor James "Gonzo" Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
>> employment and terminate his working (9 to 5) relationship with Apache,
>> without leaving him with the "dues" of a committer and make him "look bad"
>> because he disappeared.
> 
> What harm is James Todd doing ? Since there are 6 months from his last
> activity you can request the removal of his account - but I don't see
> why he ( or James Davidson or Anil ) should be removed for disappearing.
> If they'll never come back - that's fine and it doesn't hurts nobody.
> But their name remains listed in many source files and should remain
> in the list of commiters.
> 
> Todd is still listed in @author tags in quite a few files ( used by both
> 3.x and 4.x - in tomcat-util package ). And there is nothing wrong with
> 9-5 contributions, there are many people who have jobs related with apache
> projects. 

Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the
"right" to vote, but also the "due" to vote...

This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country. Are
we undermining that?

Pier

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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Pier Fumagalli]

"James Taylor" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> -- jt (who is afraid Pier will do a mailing list search on him and
> realize how little value he brings to the community =)

Sorry James, I just _had_ to do this! :) Nothing personal!!! :) :) :)



Just need to grep the right files... You are a good committer, I see that
you have 2342 commits into the turbine CVS. Good.

I still beat you, overall I'm at 10717, Andy is at 2666 (Andy you're so
lazy), but hear hear, Costin has 25871, beating Craig who is just at 22712,
and our president (Sam) at 60869... Yes yes, he deserves to be the PMC
president just for that...

This is such a nice way to recognized "how much" you contributed to the
foundation, isn't it?

Hints for newbies, make your CVS commits small, so your overall activity
meter will grow. Two lines at a time, and if you have a nice file of 1000
lines, you get 500 points just for that...



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[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[costinm]

On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:

> Andrew C. Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > -1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.
> 
> It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
> community, nor James "Gonzo" Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
> employment and terminate his working (9 to 5) relationship with Apache,
> without leaving him with the "dues" of a committer and make him "look bad"
> because he disappeared.

What harm is James Todd doing ? Since there are 6 months from his last 
activity you can request the removal of his account - but I don't see 
why he ( or James Davidson or Anil ) should be removed for disappearing.
If they'll never come back - that's fine and it doesn't hurts nobody.
But their name remains listed in many source files and should remain 
in the list of commiters.

Todd is still listed in @author tags in quite a few files ( used by both
3.x and 4.x - in tomcat-util package ). And there is nothing wrong with 
9-5 contributions, there are many people who have jobs related with apache
projects. 


Costin





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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 11:38, James Taylor wrote:
> 
> > My projects haven't come to a grinding halt.  Only on general @ jakarta
> 
> But this isn't about your projects, it is about the community, and the
> community is more important than the code. Do you even know why you are
> here?
> 

No.. how about you enlighten me?

> > -Andy
> 
> -- jt (who is afraid Pier will do a mailing list search on him and
> realize how little value he brings to the community =)
> 
> 
> --
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> 
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Java
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structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Martin van den Bemt]

 
> The converse: You all can vote all day long on what I'm to do, but what
> are you going to do when my dissenting vote is cast by me not actually
> doing it?  Voting has NOTHING to do with what work gets done.  Thats the
> POWER of those who do.

We are talking about this proposal am I right not about a project
proposal? So if there is a veto, you can do whatever you want, but you
are doing it for nobody. Unless you want to push the proposal in, when
the opportunity is there.

> 
> > > 
> > > I offered myself as installer of Scarab and it was accepted. 
> > 
> > Guess you are a committer on jakarta? I am not. Is that the difference?
> > This is exactly the reason why I said +1.. 
> 
> If you contribute work, you'll become a committer, its as simple as
> that.  I propose people committers because I can't keep up with their
> patches and get my own work done.  (After I make sure they will fit into
> the community and they know how to use CVS).  I would like to say I
> really value the opinions of everyone, but I don't.  I value the
> opinions of those who are going to contribute something tangible to the
> project (even if its just critique of the documentation, bug reports,
> test files, etc).  

Don't think we are discussing the same thing here.. I refered to my
offer of being a sysadmin/maillist moderator. Becoming a committer of
any project isn't involved in that. Probably because you have to be
committer to do such a thing, getting involved the community is pretty
difficult. 

> 
> If +1 = "Andy Do" then thats a big -1 from me.  If +1 = "Yes and I'll do
> or help do" then great!  To let non-coders be committers cheapens the
> meaning.  
Agreed ont hat, but I guess you missed to point Pier made.. Pier wasn't
suggesting that non-coders can be committers, just that they can be
members. 

> Its just a bunch of folks registering their opinion on what I
> should do.  Yeah, the difference between that and toilette paper is that
> toilette paper is useful.

You are all (seen this reference a couple of times now) thinking of
members that take up "jakarta" management issues and that they become
leaders.. I was just referring to people who can make life easier for
the coders. If I was jakarta's sysadmin, and someones says we want to
switch to scarab, I must be able to say -1 (when supplying good
reasons..). If you have a vote on POI, as a sysmanager I don't vote on
that. The only members that can intervene in your project (if that
member role was there that is), could be the lawyers ;) En (or
de)-cryption support in POI is something that could be appropiate on
that ;)). Hope you get the "overall" picture of what I am trying to say
here.. (please don't kill me on details..)
 
> 
> Yeah the kicker is that there are no bugs in it (or at least there
> weren't a week or two ago).  Maybe Turbine is perfect? :-D

Dude.. I was searching my ass of on that crashing thing.. I guess it is
perfect then indeed ;).

Mvgr,
Martin



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 11:38, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > I fail to see the connection between what I said and what you stated.
> > 
> > I offered myself as installer of Scarab and it was accepted.  I'll be
> > implementing that shortly.  (Step 1. Drive Server to chapel hill, Step
> > 2. Install Scarab on it for practice, Step 3. install here)
> 
> Good. If you weren't a committer for POI, and you did that for the past 2
> years, wouldn't you like to have a some sort of recognition by this
> community? Wouldn't you like to be able to elect the PMC? To decide what
> projects you'll have to deal with in your installation of the bug tracking
> system? I believe you would.
> 

And that is why I think there should be an infrastructure project.  The
infrastructure project would give credibility to such persons and remove
it from general @.  But if we're going to give lawyers and nannies
voting rights in POI...well thats not real high on my list of good
things.

-Andy

> Pier
> 
> --
> [Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
> sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
> the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 11:38, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 17:16, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > 
> > I fail to see the connection between what I said and what you stated.  
> 
> Then I fail to see your connection with my story too.. 
> I'll Give it try anyway : If no one cares or just one person cares and
> needs to vote of all to get things implemented or changed and doesn't
> get that vote, it will not get implemented, or even tried.
> I think that is normal behaviour here, so that is why I guess a lot of
> idea's never get implemented anyway, because you guys -1 it.. 
> 

The converse: You all can vote all day long on what I'm to do, but what
are you going to do when my dissenting vote is cast by me not actually
doing it?  Voting has NOTHING to do with what work gets done.  Thats the
POWER of those who do.

> > 
> > I offered myself as installer of Scarab and it was accepted. 
> 
> Guess you are a committer on jakarta? I am not. Is that the difference?
> This is exactly the reason why I said +1.. 

If you contribute work, you'll become a committer, its as simple as
that.  I propose people committers because I can't keep up with their
patches and get my own work done.  (After I make sure they will fit into
the community and they know how to use CVS).  I would like to say I
really value the opinions of everyone, but I don't.  I value the
opinions of those who are going to contribute something tangible to the
project (even if its just critique of the documentation, bug reports,
test files, etc).  

If +1 = "Andy Do" then thats a big -1 from me.  If +1 = "Yes and I'll do
or help do" then great!  To let non-coders be committers cheapens the
meaning.  Its just a bunch of folks registering their opinion on what I
should do.  Yeah, the difference between that and toilette paper is that
toilette paper is useful.

> If you don't mind me asking out of interest : which project ? (else I
> have to dig into the avail file to see where you have commit access ;))
> 

Committer to POI and Lucene.  Developer/Contributer to Cocoon.

>  I'll be
> > implementing that shortly.  (Step 1. Drive Server to chapel hill, Step
> > 2. Install Scarab on it for practice, Step 3. install here)
> 
> It's broken now indeed ;) On the turbine list they are still saying that
> I have to use that to get bugs...
> 

Yeah the kicker is that there are no bugs in it (or at least there
weren't a week or two ago).  Maybe Turbine is perfect? :-D

-Andy

> Mvgr,
> Martin
> 
> > -Andy
> > 
> > On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 11:05, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> > > Andy,
> > > 
> > > With this attitude nothing gets ever implemented I guess.
> > > 
> > > In this case Pier can hardly say : I am going to implement this and all
> > > of you comply! So he can implement whatever he wants, as long as it it
> > > still veto'd its no use investing spare time in. 
> > > I offered myself 2 times to jakarta as a sysadmin/co-list moderator, but
> > > to no avail, although some were complaining about lack of time. This new
> > > proposal will leave this kind of involvement at least open.
> > > 
> > > Mvgr,
> > > Martin
> > > 
> > > On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 16:49, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 10:44, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> > > > > Even though I am not a committer / member (I try to contribute code
> > > > > however), I just needed to express my opinion ;).
> > > > > 
> > > > > I am a +1 on Piers proposal. 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Especially the membership possibility for people who are not coding can
> > > > > be very constructive for this community! 
> > > > > 
> > > > > Designers, politicians, copywriters, lawyers, nannies, cleaning lady,
> > > > > sys admins, people with great ideas ("the thinkers")  etc,etc.. A
> > > > > community is more then just programming, although it is "our" core
> > > > > business here. Others can give us a look at things we didn't have before
> > > > > and make life a little bit easier for us code monkeys (or as I call
> > > > > myself in dutch "tiep miep")
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > I see lots of ideas floating around.  Just few get implemented.  
> > > > 
> > > > -Andy
> > > > 
> > > > > Just my 2 euro cents ;)
> > > > > 
> > > > > Mvgr,
> > > > > Martin
> > > > > 
> > > > > PS this is not a pro Pier (or whoever) and con Costin (or whoever)
> > > > > thing. So let's keep it that way and ignore the comments about that to
> > > > > each other. If you cannot mail something independend of the past,
> > > > > besidees the current subject, don't mail it or mail it in private, or
> > > > > better be the wisest to ignore it.
> > > > > 
> > > > > I am not here to teach values or something like that (you are not
> > > > > waiting for that probably), but I am going to try anyway :
> > > > > The past is something that happened and is not now, you cannot blame
> > > > > people for what has taken place then, because it is not taking place now
> > > > > (with now I mean this Nanosecond even less). Life becomes so m

Re: Vicious Abuse?

[costinm]

On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:

> "Jeff Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > .. and thankful that people like Costin persevere in spite of rather
> > vicious abuse.
> 
> Vicious abuse? All I am proposing is to add greater flexibility to the
> freedom of those who are involved with the Jakarta project.
> 
> All I'm proposing is to accept the idea that we might have coders who don't
> care about new projects or PMCs, they just want their code done, or that we
> might have important resources out there who might want to get involved with
> this project but cannot be tied to one particular code base?
> 
> Is it a vicious abuse to ask Sally to become an ASF member ALTHOUGH she
> doesn¹t know how to code in C or Java, or Perl, and doesn't even know what
> CVS is all about?

There is no requirement for someone to know C or Java for becomming a 
commiter. All you need is make contributions to the project. I've seen
no language requirement ( Java or English )

We have plenty of people who don't care about politics - they just don't 
vote or are smart enough to not participate in the flame-wars. 


> Is it a vicious abuse to ask to free this community from a concept like
> "meritocracy as the number of lines of code you put into CVS"?
> 
> I don't think so, because if this community believes that "freedom" is a
> vicious abuse, this community is racist, racist towards those who can't or
> don't want to have to deal with CVS, no more and no less as one could be
> racist on the color of your skin, or the ideas that populate your mind...

Having hierarchies of 'people can only code' and 'people who lead' is
not freedom. Creating a group that is 'more equal than the others' and
taking away the right to vote to those we believe don't care is not
freedom.

Costin 


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Martin van den Bemt]

> 
> -- jt (who is afraid Pier will do a mailing list search on him and
> realize how little value he brings to the community =)

+1 on humor ;) 
You can add some extra by committing my patches for turbine-2.. ))


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[James Taylor]

> My projects haven't come to a grinding halt.  Only on general @ jakarta

But this isn't about your projects, it is about the community, and the
community is more important than the code. Do you even know why you are
here?

> -Andy

-- jt (who is afraid Pier will do a mailing list search on him and
realize how little value he brings to the community =)


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Pier Fumagalli]

"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 
> I fail to see the connection between what I said and what you stated.
> 
> I offered myself as installer of Scarab and it was accepted.  I'll be
> implementing that shortly.  (Step 1. Drive Server to chapel hill, Step
> 2. Install Scarab on it for practice, Step 3. install here)

Good. If you weren't a committer for POI, and you did that for the past 2
years, wouldn't you like to have a some sort of recognition by this
community? Wouldn't you like to be able to elect the PMC? To decide what
projects you'll have to deal with in your installation of the bug tracking
system? I believe you would.

Pier

--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Martin van den Bemt]

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 17:16, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> 
> I fail to see the connection between what I said and what you stated.  

Then I fail to see your connection with my story too.. 
I'll Give it try anyway : If no one cares or just one person cares and
needs to vote of all to get things implemented or changed and doesn't
get that vote, it will not get implemented, or even tried.
I think that is normal behaviour here, so that is why I guess a lot of
idea's never get implemented anyway, because you guys -1 it.. 

> 
> I offered myself as installer of Scarab and it was accepted. 

Guess you are a committer on jakarta? I am not. Is that the difference?
This is exactly the reason why I said +1.. 
If you don't mind me asking out of interest : which project ? (else I
have to dig into the avail file to see where you have commit access ;))

 I'll be
> implementing that shortly.  (Step 1. Drive Server to chapel hill, Step
> 2. Install Scarab on it for practice, Step 3. install here)

It's broken now indeed ;) On the turbine list they are still saying that
I have to use that to get bugs...

Mvgr,
Martin

> -Andy
> 
> On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 11:05, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> > Andy,
> > 
> > With this attitude nothing gets ever implemented I guess.
> > 
> > In this case Pier can hardly say : I am going to implement this and all
> > of you comply! So he can implement whatever he wants, as long as it it
> > still veto'd its no use investing spare time in. 
> > I offered myself 2 times to jakarta as a sysadmin/co-list moderator, but
> > to no avail, although some were complaining about lack of time. This new
> > proposal will leave this kind of involvement at least open.
> > 
> > Mvgr,
> > Martin
> > 
> > On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 16:49, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > > On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 10:44, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> > > > Even though I am not a committer / member (I try to contribute code
> > > > however), I just needed to express my opinion ;).
> > > > 
> > > > I am a +1 on Piers proposal. 
> > > > 
> > > > Especially the membership possibility for people who are not coding can
> > > > be very constructive for this community! 
> > > > 
> > > > Designers, politicians, copywriters, lawyers, nannies, cleaning lady,
> > > > sys admins, people with great ideas ("the thinkers")  etc,etc.. A
> > > > community is more then just programming, although it is "our" core
> > > > business here. Others can give us a look at things we didn't have before
> > > > and make life a little bit easier for us code monkeys (or as I call
> > > > myself in dutch "tiep miep")
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > I see lots of ideas floating around.  Just few get implemented.  
> > > 
> > > -Andy
> > > 
> > > > Just my 2 euro cents ;)
> > > > 
> > > > Mvgr,
> > > > Martin
> > > > 
> > > > PS this is not a pro Pier (or whoever) and con Costin (or whoever)
> > > > thing. So let's keep it that way and ignore the comments about that to
> > > > each other. If you cannot mail something independend of the past,
> > > > besidees the current subject, don't mail it or mail it in private, or
> > > > better be the wisest to ignore it.
> > > > 
> > > > I am not here to teach values or something like that (you are not
> > > > waiting for that probably), but I am going to try anyway :
> > > > The past is something that happened and is not now, you cannot blame
> > > > people for what has taken place then, because it is not taking place now
> > > > (with now I mean this Nanosecond even less). Life becomes so much easier
> > > > if you obtain this view! No barriers to look back on, just plain free,
> > > > non prejudiced communications. Wow we live in a great world!
> > > > Forgive me my Martin logic, you will get used to it.. ;))
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 15:13, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > > > > Andrew C. Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > -1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.
> > > > > 
> > > > > It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
> > > > > community, nor James "Gonzo" Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
> > > > > employment and terminate his working (9 to 5) relationship with Apache,
> > > > > without leaving him with the "dues" of a committer and make him "look bad"
> > > > > because he disappeared.
> > > > > 
> > > > > Pier
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --
> > > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > > > > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> > > > > 
> > > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> > > > 
> > > -- 
> > > http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
> > > http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
> > > Java
> > > http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> 

Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

[costinm]

On Sat, 25 May 2002, Ceki Gülcü wrote:

> At 23:30 24.05.2002 -0400, Sam Ruby wrote:
> >http://www.libertyforall.net/2002/archive/do-ocracy.html
> 
> The motivational power of appreciation cannot be underestimated. The
> author is correct in emphasizing the point. What is not emphasized
> enough is the need for direction. What's the use of having a million
> volunteers if they all pull in different directions?

What's the fun of having a million volunteers going in a single 
direction :-) ?
Most amazing things happen when people go in unexpected directions.


Costin


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Andrew C. Oliver]

I fail to see the connection between what I said and what you stated.  

I offered myself as installer of Scarab and it was accepted.  I'll be
implementing that shortly.  (Step 1. Drive Server to chapel hill, Step
2. Install Scarab on it for practice, Step 3. install here)

-Andy

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 11:05, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> Andy,
> 
> With this attitude nothing gets ever implemented I guess.
> 
> In this case Pier can hardly say : I am going to implement this and all
> of you comply! So he can implement whatever he wants, as long as it it
> still veto'd its no use investing spare time in. 
> I offered myself 2 times to jakarta as a sysadmin/co-list moderator, but
> to no avail, although some were complaining about lack of time. This new
> proposal will leave this kind of involvement at least open.
> 
> Mvgr,
> Martin
> 
> On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 16:49, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> > On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 10:44, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> > > Even though I am not a committer / member (I try to contribute code
> > > however), I just needed to express my opinion ;).
> > > 
> > > I am a +1 on Piers proposal. 
> > > 
> > > Especially the membership possibility for people who are not coding can
> > > be very constructive for this community! 
> > > 
> > > Designers, politicians, copywriters, lawyers, nannies, cleaning lady,
> > > sys admins, people with great ideas ("the thinkers")  etc,etc.. A
> > > community is more then just programming, although it is "our" core
> > > business here. Others can give us a look at things we didn't have before
> > > and make life a little bit easier for us code monkeys (or as I call
> > > myself in dutch "tiep miep")
> > > 
> > 
> > I see lots of ideas floating around.  Just few get implemented.  
> > 
> > -Andy
> > 
> > > Just my 2 euro cents ;)
> > > 
> > > Mvgr,
> > > Martin
> > > 
> > > PS this is not a pro Pier (or whoever) and con Costin (or whoever)
> > > thing. So let's keep it that way and ignore the comments about that to
> > > each other. If you cannot mail something independend of the past,
> > > besidees the current subject, don't mail it or mail it in private, or
> > > better be the wisest to ignore it.
> > > 
> > > I am not here to teach values or something like that (you are not
> > > waiting for that probably), but I am going to try anyway :
> > > The past is something that happened and is not now, you cannot blame
> > > people for what has taken place then, because it is not taking place now
> > > (with now I mean this Nanosecond even less). Life becomes so much easier
> > > if you obtain this view! No barriers to look back on, just plain free,
> > > non prejudiced communications. Wow we live in a great world!
> > > Forgive me my Martin logic, you will get used to it.. ;))
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 15:13, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > > > Andrew C. Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > -1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.
> > > > 
> > > > It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
> > > > community, nor James "Gonzo" Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
> > > > employment and terminate his working (9 to 5) relationship with Apache,
> > > > without leaving him with the "dues" of a committer and make him "look bad"
> > > > because he disappeared.
> > > > 
> > > > Pier
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > --
> > > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > > > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> > > 
> > -- 
> > http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
> > Java
> > http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> > structure
> > a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
> > The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> > vote.
> > -Ambassador Kosh
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> --
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> 
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http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 07:35, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
> At 23:30 24.05.2002 -0400, Sam Ruby wrote:
> >http://www.libertyforall.net/2002/archive/do-ocracy.html
> 
> The motivational power of appreciation cannot be underestimated. The
> author is correct in emphasizing the point. What is not emphasized
> enough is the need for direction. What's the use of having a million
> volunteers if they all pull in different directions?
> 

Its that very few "DO" when they are pulling.  Its the power of those
that "Do" that eventually makes the boat go in a particular direction.

> >- Sam Ruby
> 
> --
> Ceki
> 
> 
> --
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http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Martin van den Bemt]

Andy,

With this attitude nothing gets ever implemented I guess.

In this case Pier can hardly say : I am going to implement this and all
of you comply! So he can implement whatever he wants, as long as it it
still veto'd its no use investing spare time in. 
I offered myself 2 times to jakarta as a sysadmin/co-list moderator, but
to no avail, although some were complaining about lack of time. This new
proposal will leave this kind of involvement at least open.

Mvgr,
Martin

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 16:49, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 10:44, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> > Even though I am not a committer / member (I try to contribute code
> > however), I just needed to express my opinion ;).
> > 
> > I am a +1 on Piers proposal. 
> > 
> > Especially the membership possibility for people who are not coding can
> > be very constructive for this community! 
> > 
> > Designers, politicians, copywriters, lawyers, nannies, cleaning lady,
> > sys admins, people with great ideas ("the thinkers")  etc,etc.. A
> > community is more then just programming, although it is "our" core
> > business here. Others can give us a look at things we didn't have before
> > and make life a little bit easier for us code monkeys (or as I call
> > myself in dutch "tiep miep")
> > 
> 
> I see lots of ideas floating around.  Just few get implemented.  
> 
> -Andy
> 
> > Just my 2 euro cents ;)
> > 
> > Mvgr,
> > Martin
> > 
> > PS this is not a pro Pier (or whoever) and con Costin (or whoever)
> > thing. So let's keep it that way and ignore the comments about that to
> > each other. If you cannot mail something independend of the past,
> > besidees the current subject, don't mail it or mail it in private, or
> > better be the wisest to ignore it.
> > 
> > I am not here to teach values or something like that (you are not
> > waiting for that probably), but I am going to try anyway :
> > The past is something that happened and is not now, you cannot blame
> > people for what has taken place then, because it is not taking place now
> > (with now I mean this Nanosecond even less). Life becomes so much easier
> > if you obtain this view! No barriers to look back on, just plain free,
> > non prejudiced communications. Wow we live in a great world!
> > Forgive me my Martin logic, you will get used to it.. ;))
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 15:13, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > > Andrew C. Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > 
> > > > -1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.
> > > 
> > > It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
> > > community, nor James "Gonzo" Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
> > > employment and terminate his working (9 to 5) relationship with Apache,
> > > without leaving him with the "dues" of a committer and make him "look bad"
> > > because he disappeared.
> > > 
> > > Pier
> > > 
> > > 
> > > --
> > > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> > 
> -- 
> http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
> http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
> Java
> http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
> structure
>   a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
> The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
> vote.
> -Ambassador Kosh
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> 



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 09:13, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> Andrew C. Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > -1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.
> 
> It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
> community, nor James "Gonzo" Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
> employment and terminate his working (9 to 5) relationship with Apache,
> without leaving him with the "dues" of a committer and make him "look bad"
> because he disappeared.
> 

My projects haven't come to a grinding halt.  Only on general @ jakarta
is the sky always falling and Apache coming to an end.  I prefer the
status quo.  Nothing you've said has convinced me that (it could be that
I don't know who those people are anyhow) there is a compelling reason
to change it.  There are other things I see as more pressing than the
need for more chiefs.

-Andy

> Pier
> 
> 
> --
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http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 10:07, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Ceki Gülcü wrote:
> >
> > The motivational power of appreciation cannot be underestimated. The
> > author is correct in emphasizing the point. What is not emphasized
> > enough is the need for direction. What's the use of having a million
> > volunteers if they all pull in different directions?
> 
> Apache projects tend to attract an abundance of leaders.
> 

+1 

> - Sam Ruby
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 10:17, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> "Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > Ceki Gülcü wrote:
> >> 
> >> The motivational power of appreciation cannot be underestimated. The
> >> author is correct in emphasizing the point. What is not emphasized
> >> enough is the need for direction. What's the use of having a million
> >> volunteers if they all pull in different directions?
> > 
> > Apache projects tend to attract an abundance of leaders.
> 
> But maybe the best leader is the non-coding one? Now all we can do is
> "sorry, but you're not welcome because you don't know how to use CVS".
> 

Oh god...I just can't wait to have non-technical leadership to
tell me what to do on projects I work on at least mostly just for fun. 
That would just kick my work to a higher level.  Can we please have
Marketing leaders tell us what features should be coded and how to code
them?  They always cause the best software to be produced.

> Pier
> 
> --
> [Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
> sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
> the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Andrew C. Oliver]

On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 10:44, Martin van den Bemt wrote:
> Even though I am not a committer / member (I try to contribute code
> however), I just needed to express my opinion ;).
> 
> I am a +1 on Piers proposal. 
> 
> Especially the membership possibility for people who are not coding can
> be very constructive for this community! 
> 
> Designers, politicians, copywriters, lawyers, nannies, cleaning lady,
> sys admins, people with great ideas ("the thinkers")  etc,etc.. A
> community is more then just programming, although it is "our" core
> business here. Others can give us a look at things we didn't have before
> and make life a little bit easier for us code monkeys (or as I call
> myself in dutch "tiep miep")
> 

I see lots of ideas floating around.  Just few get implemented.  

-Andy

> Just my 2 euro cents ;)
> 
> Mvgr,
> Martin
> 
> PS this is not a pro Pier (or whoever) and con Costin (or whoever)
> thing. So let's keep it that way and ignore the comments about that to
> each other. If you cannot mail something independend of the past,
> besidees the current subject, don't mail it or mail it in private, or
> better be the wisest to ignore it.
> 
> I am not here to teach values or something like that (you are not
> waiting for that probably), but I am going to try anyway :
> The past is something that happened and is not now, you cannot blame
> people for what has taken place then, because it is not taking place now
> (with now I mean this Nanosecond even less). Life becomes so much easier
> if you obtain this view! No barriers to look back on, just plain free,
> non prejudiced communications. Wow we live in a great world!
> Forgive me my Martin logic, you will get used to it.. ;))
> 
> 
> 
> On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 15:13, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > Andrew C. Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > 
> > > -1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.
> > 
> > It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
> > community, nor James "Gonzo" Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
> > employment and terminate his working (9 to 5) relationship with Apache,
> > without leaving him with the "dues" of a committer and make him "look bad"
> > because he disappeared.
> > 
> > Pier
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> > 
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
-- 
http://www.superlinksoftware.com - software solutions for business
http://jakarta.apache.org/poi - Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document in
Java
http://krysalis.sourceforge.net/centipede - the best build/project
structure
a guy/gal could have! - Make Ant simple on complex Projects!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Pier Fumagalli]

"Martin van den Bemt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Designers, politicians, copywriters, lawyers, nannies, cleaning lady,
> sys admins, people with great ideas ("the thinkers")  etc,etc.. A
> community is more then just programming, although it is "our" core
> business here. Others can give us a look at things we didn't have before
> and make life a little bit easier for us code monkeys (or as I call
> myself in dutch "tiep miep")

_THIS_ is freedom. It doesn't look like a "vicious abuse"... Thank you
Martin...

Pier

--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]


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Vicious Abuse?

[Pier Fumagalli]

"Jeff Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> .. and thankful that people like Costin persevere in spite of rather
> vicious abuse.

Vicious abuse? All I am proposing is to add greater flexibility to the
freedom of those who are involved with the Jakarta project.

All I'm proposing is to accept the idea that we might have coders who don't
care about new projects or PMCs, they just want their code done, or that we
might have important resources out there who might want to get involved with
this project but cannot be tied to one particular code base?

Is it a vicious abuse to ask Sally to become an ASF member ALTHOUGH she
doesn¹t know how to code in C or Java, or Perl, and doesn't even know what
CVS is all about?

Is it a vicious abuse to ask to free this community from a concept like
"meritocracy as the number of lines of code you put into CVS"?

I don't think so, because if this community believes that "freedom" is a
vicious abuse, this community is racist, racist towards those who can't or
don't want to have to deal with CVS, no more and no less as one could be
racist on the color of your skin, or the ideas that populate your mind...

Pier (really, really worried)

--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Martin van den Bemt]

Even though I am not a committer / member (I try to contribute code
however), I just needed to express my opinion ;).

I am a +1 on Piers proposal. 

Especially the membership possibility for people who are not coding can
be very constructive for this community! 

Designers, politicians, copywriters, lawyers, nannies, cleaning lady,
sys admins, people with great ideas ("the thinkers")  etc,etc.. A
community is more then just programming, although it is "our" core
business here. Others can give us a look at things we didn't have before
and make life a little bit easier for us code monkeys (or as I call
myself in dutch "tiep miep")

Just my 2 euro cents ;)

Mvgr,
Martin

PS this is not a pro Pier (or whoever) and con Costin (or whoever)
thing. So let's keep it that way and ignore the comments about that to
each other. If you cannot mail something independend of the past,
besidees the current subject, don't mail it or mail it in private, or
better be the wisest to ignore it.

I am not here to teach values or something like that (you are not
waiting for that probably), but I am going to try anyway :
The past is something that happened and is not now, you cannot blame
people for what has taken place then, because it is not taking place now
(with now I mean this Nanosecond even less). Life becomes so much easier
if you obtain this view! No barriers to look back on, just plain free,
non prejudiced communications. Wow we live in a great world!
Forgive me my Martin logic, you will get used to it.. ;))



On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 15:13, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> Andrew C. Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> > -1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.
> 
> It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
> community, nor James "Gonzo" Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
> employment and terminate his working (9 to 5) relationship with Apache,
> without leaving him with the "dues" of a committer and make him "look bad"
> because he disappeared.
> 
> Pier
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> 



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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Jeff Turner]

On Sat, May 25, 2002 at 02:04:24PM +0100, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> > 
> >>> If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all other commiters.
> >>> If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice.
> >> 
> >> Hola, you tend to forget a part I'm stressing out quite hardly... It's not
> >> only "rights"... It's also "dues", right?
> > 
> > Yes, the 'due' to spend weekends writing code or answering emails or
> > reading flame wars.
> > 
> > Give me a break with the big 'due' to vote or have a say over how the
> > project you're involved with.
> 
> And in fact, Costin, the big opposition you're going to get from me, will
> always be on the fact that you are totally and utterly irresponsible towards
> this community and the ASF... It's years that you're been told that, not
> only from me, but from an extended number of people (do we want to get back
> to the Tomcat 3.x/4.x flamewar? Read those comments)...

Aren't we all happy that 3.3.x exists, and is better than 3.2.x? Aren't
we all happy that we have a choice to 4.x?

Aren't we all happy that Jon was 'mislead' into not -1'ing Struts (one
of Jakarta's biggest successes)?

Perhaps people should be less certain they know what is best for the
community :P

> Anyway, nice talking to you (not).

.. and thankful that people like Costin persevere in spite of rather
vicious abuse.


--Jeff
(a happy 3.3.x and Struts user, whose sense of justice temporarily
outweighs an aversion to general@ flamewars)


> Pier
> 

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Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

[Pier Fumagalli]

"Sam Ruby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Ceki Gülcü wrote:
>> 
>> The motivational power of appreciation cannot be underestimated. The
>> author is correct in emphasizing the point. What is not emphasized
>> enough is the need for direction. What's the use of having a million
>> volunteers if they all pull in different directions?
> 
> Apache projects tend to attract an abundance of leaders.

But maybe the best leader is the non-coding one? Now all we can do is
"sorry, but you're not welcome because you don't know how to use CVS".

Pier

--
[Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp:  a billion of different
sublanguages in  one monolithic executable.  It combines the power of C with
the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]


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Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

[Sam Ruby]

Ceki Gülcü wrote:
>
> The motivational power of appreciation cannot be underestimated. The
> author is correct in emphasizing the point. What is not emphasized
> enough is the need for direction. What's the use of having a million
> volunteers if they all pull in different directions?

Apache projects tend to attract an abundance of leaders.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

[Pier Fumagalli]

Sam Ruby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> http://www.libertyforall.net/2002/archive/do-ocracy.html

Nice article, but that has little to do with the problem that I'm trying to
outline here (which is not a matter of "freedom" but of "rights and
responsibilities").

Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Pier Fumagalli]

Andrew C. Oliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> -1, its not broken, it worked.  I see little reason to fix it.

It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this
community, nor James "Gonzo" Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his
employment and terminate his working (9 to 5) relationship with Apache,
without leaving him with the "dues" of a committer and make him "look bad"
because he disappeared.

Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Pier Fumagalli]

Tim Vernum <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> 
>> If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all
>> other commiters.
>> If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice.
> 
> But it's not just about exercising rights, it's also about
> granting rights.
> 
> At the moment, you cannot grant someone one right (commit access)
> without also granting them additional rights (voting etc).
> 
> Some people (myself included) would claim that the "condition of
> entry" for those rights, are not equal.

Thanks, it seems that few people understood what I'm trying to do: freeing
the community from being tied down to a particular CVS repository and
restructuring it, for most of the otehrs I'm just someone who wants to "lock
up" this community and strip it of its freedom... Bah :)

Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

[Pier Fumagalli]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> 
>>> If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all other commiters.
>>> If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice.
>> 
>> Hola, you tend to forget a part I'm stressing out quite hardly... It's not
>> only "rights"... It's also "dues", right?
> 
> Yes, the 'due' to spend weekends writing code or answering emails or
> reading flame wars.
> 
> Give me a break with the big 'due' to vote or have a say over how the
> project you're involved with.

And in fact, Costin, the big opposition you're going to get from me, will
always be on the fact that you are totally and utterly irresponsible towards
this community and the ASF... It's years that you're been told that, not
only from me, but from an extended number of people (do we want to get back
to the Tomcat 3.x/4.x flamewar? Read those comments)...

Anyway, nice talking to you (not).

Pier


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Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

[Ceki Gülcü]

At 23:30 24.05.2002 -0400, Sam Ruby wrote:
>http://www.libertyforall.net/2002/archive/do-ocracy.html

The motivational power of appreciation cannot be underestimated. The
author is correct in emphasizing the point. What is not emphasized
enough is the need for direction. What's the use of having a million
volunteers if they all pull in different directions?

>- Sam Ruby

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Ceki


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