Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

2002-05-25 Thread Ceki Gülcü
At 23:30 24.05.2002 -0400, Sam Ruby wrote: http://www.libertyforall.net/2002/archive/do-ocracy.html The motivational power of appreciation cannot be underestimated. The author is correct in emphasizing the point. What is not emphasized enough is the need for direction. What's the use of having a

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote: If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all other commiters. If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice. Hola, you tend to forget a part I'm stressing out quite hardly...

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli
Tim Vernum [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all other commiters. If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice. But it's not just about exercising rights, it's also about

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli
Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -1, its not broken, it worked. I see little reason to fix it. It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this community, nor James Gonzo Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his employment and terminate his working (9 to 5)

Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli
Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.libertyforall.net/2002/archive/do-ocracy.html Nice article, but that has little to do with the problem that I'm trying to outline here (which is not a matter of freedom but of rights and responsibilities). Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail:

Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

2002-05-25 Thread Sam Ruby
Ceki Gülcü wrote: The motivational power of appreciation cannot be underestimated. The author is correct in emphasizing the point. What is not emphasized enough is the need for direction. What's the use of having a million volunteers if they all pull in different directions? Apache projects

Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli
Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ceki Gülcü wrote: The motivational power of appreciation cannot be underestimated. The author is correct in emphasizing the point. What is not emphasized enough is the need for direction. What's the use of having a million volunteers if they all pull in

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Jeff Turner
On Sat, May 25, 2002 at 02:04:24PM +0100, Pier Fumagalli wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote: If you are a commiter - you have the same rights with all other commiters. If you don't want to exercise some rights - it's your choice.

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt
Even though I am not a committer / member (I try to contribute code however), I just needed to express my opinion ;). I am a +1 on Piers proposal. Especially the membership possibility for people who are not coding can be very constructive for this community! Designers, politicians,

Vicious Abuse?

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli
Jeff Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. and thankful that people like Costin persevere in spite of rather vicious abuse. Vicious abuse? All I am proposing is to add greater flexibility to the freedom of those who are involved with the Jakarta project. All I'm proposing is to accept the idea

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli
Martin van den Bemt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Designers, politicians, copywriters, lawyers, nannies, cleaning lady, sys admins, people with great ideas (the thinkers) etc,etc.. A community is more then just programming, although it is our core business here. Others can give us a look at

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 10:44, Martin van den Bemt wrote: Even though I am not a committer / member (I try to contribute code however), I just needed to express my opinion ;). I am a +1 on Piers proposal. Especially the membership possibility for people who are not coding can be very

Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 10:17, Pier Fumagalli wrote: Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ceki Gülcü wrote: The motivational power of appreciation cannot be underestimated. The author is correct in emphasizing the point. What is not emphasized enough is the need for direction. What's the

Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 10:07, Sam Ruby wrote: Ceki Gülcü wrote: The motivational power of appreciation cannot be underestimated. The author is correct in emphasizing the point. What is not emphasized enough is the need for direction. What's the use of having a million volunteers if they

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 09:13, Pier Fumagalli wrote: Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -1, its not broken, it worked. I see little reason to fix it. It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this community, nor James Gonzo Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt
Andy, With this attitude nothing gets ever implemented I guess. In this case Pier can hardly say : I am going to implement this and all of you comply! So he can implement whatever he wants, as long as it it still veto'd its no use investing spare time in. I offered myself 2 times to jakarta as

Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 07:35, Ceki Gülcü wrote: At 23:30 24.05.2002 -0400, Sam Ruby wrote: http://www.libertyforall.net/2002/archive/do-ocracy.html The motivational power of appreciation cannot be underestimated. The author is correct in emphasizing the point. What is not emphasized enough

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
I fail to see the connection between what I said and what you stated. I offered myself as installer of Scarab and it was accepted. I'll be implementing that shortly. (Step 1. Drive Server to chapel hill, Step 2. Install Scarab on it for practice, Step 3. install here) -Andy On Sat,

Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

2002-05-25 Thread costinm
On Sat, 25 May 2002, Ceki Gülcü wrote: At 23:30 24.05.2002 -0400, Sam Ruby wrote: http://www.libertyforall.net/2002/archive/do-ocracy.html The motivational power of appreciation cannot be underestimated. The author is correct in emphasizing the point. What is not emphasized enough is the

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 17:16, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: I fail to see the connection between what I said and what you stated. Then I fail to see your connection with my story too.. I'll Give it try anyway : If no one cares or just one person cares and needs to vote of all to get things

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli
Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I fail to see the connection between what I said and what you stated. I offered myself as installer of Scarab and it was accepted. I'll be implementing that shortly. (Step 1. Drive Server to chapel hill, Step 2. Install Scarab on it for

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread James Taylor
My projects haven't come to a grinding halt. Only on general @ jakarta But this isn't about your projects, it is about the community, and the community is more important than the code. Do you even know why you are here? -Andy -- jt (who is afraid Pier will do a mailing list search on him

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt
-- jt (who is afraid Pier will do a mailing list search on him and realize how little value he brings to the community =) +1 on humor ;) You can add some extra by committing my patches for turbine-2.. )) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands,

Re: Vicious Abuse?

2002-05-25 Thread costinm
On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote: Jeff Turner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: .. and thankful that people like Costin persevere in spite of rather vicious abuse. Vicious abuse? All I am proposing is to add greater flexibility to the freedom of those who are involved with the Jakarta

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt
The converse: You all can vote all day long on what I'm to do, but what are you going to do when my dissenting vote is cast by me not actually doing it? Voting has NOTHING to do with what work gets done. Thats the POWER of those who do. We are talking about this proposal am I right not

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 11:38, James Taylor wrote: My projects haven't come to a grinding halt. Only on general @ jakarta But this isn't about your projects, it is about the community, and the community is more important than the code. Do you even know why you are here? No.. how about

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread costinm
On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote: Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -1, its not broken, it worked. I see little reason to fix it. It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this community, nor James Gonzo Todd (ex employee at Sun), to leave his

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli
James Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- jt (who is afraid Pier will do a mailing list search on him and realize how little value he brings to the community =) Sorry James, I just _had_ to do this! :) Nothing personal!!! :) :) :) sarcasm Just need to grep the right files... You are a good

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote: Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -1, its not broken, it worked. I see little reason to fix it. It is broken. We don't allow Sally Khudairi to be a member of this community, nor James Gonzo

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the right to vote, but also the due to vote... This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country. Are we undermining that? you also have the right to abstain. Sometimes you speak loudest by not

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt
Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the right to vote, but also the due to vote... This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country. Are we undermining that? Hmm.. democracy is also having the right not to vote. Just don't complain if

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Nicola Ken Barozzi
From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the right to vote, but also the due to vote... This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country. Are we undermining that? No, it isn't. In a true democracy, one

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt
Maven provides that functionality ;)) see http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/activity-log.html Mvgr, Martin On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 18:28, Pier Fumagalli wrote: James Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- jt (who is afraid Pier will do a mailing list search on him and realize how little

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread James Taylor
while one of the major democracies of the world, the US, doen't surely have one of the highest turnouts. And a lot of people see that as a really bad thing. Turning in an empty ballot is one thing, but not going to the polls because you can't tear yourself away from 'Must See TV' is ignoring

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
No, it isn't. In a true democracy, one has the right to abstain. IMO that a good democracy doesn't need strong feelings: many dictators go to power with a strong vote with a strong turnout, while one of the major democracies of the world, the US, doen't surely have one of the highest

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
LOL ;-) On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 12:43, Martin van den Bemt wrote: Maven provides that functionality ;)) see http://jakarta.apache.org/turbine/maven/activity-log.html Mvgr, Martin On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 18:28, Pier Fumagalli wrote: James Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: -- jt (who is

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli
Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the right to vote, but also the due to vote... This is one of the fundamental concepts of any good democratic country. Are we undermining

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt
its a meritocracy. Thanx to the Oxfort dictionary I know what it is.. But all democracies are actually meritocracies according to the dictionary, they select you to be able to vote when 18+. But this is getting way to Off-Topic I guess... ;)) Mvgr, Martin -- To unsubscribe, e-mail:

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread costinm
On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote: Just need to grep the right files... You are a good committer, I see that you have 2342 commits into the turbine CVS. Good. I still beat you, overall I'm at 10717, Andy is at 2666 (Andy you're so lazy), but hear hear, Costin has 25871, beating

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Nicola Ken Barozzi
From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Being a committer (at least that's my idea), he doesn't only have the right to vote, but also the due to vote... This is one of the fundamental concepts of any

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 12:53, Martin van den Bemt wrote: its a meritocracy. Thanx to the Oxfort dictionary I know what it is.. But all democracies are actually meritocracies according to the dictionary, they select you to be able to vote when 18+. But this is getting way to Off-Topic I

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Nicola Ken Barozzi
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote: Just need to grep the right files... You are a good committer, I see that you have 2342 commits into the turbine CVS. Good. I still beat you, overall I'm at 10717, Andy is at 2666 (Andy you're so lazy), but hear hear,

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 19:03, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: The action worthy of merit being: Surviving adolescence? Too many words I need a dictionary for ;)) (it's hard to discuss stuff you have to get out of a dictionary, so I will not try that) I will conclude this day of way too little coding by

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli
Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), then why measure them at all? If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), what is the way that this community has to decide whether a person is a committer or not, given that as it is

FW: Howdy... just FYI, the bcel-dev archive mailing list link isbroken...

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli
FYI, can someone with the right knowledge fix it? :) Pier -- [Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and Lisp: a billion of different sublanguages in one monolithic executable. It combines the power of C with the readability of PostScript. [Jamie Zawinski - DNA Lounge - San Francisco]

Objectbridge and JDO: Licensing issue

2002-05-25 Thread Florian Bruckner
Hi, I am sending this to the jakarta-general list because I hope that some of you can help us to resolve the following issue. As you might remember, Objectbridge was recently proposed as a jakarta-subproject and accepted. This requires Objectbridge to change the license to ASL, which is

Re: Objectbridge and JDO: Licensing issue

2002-05-25 Thread Pier Fumagalli
Florian, I believe that this is more-or-less (or falls really close) to the issue that XML-Axis is having (but I might be wrong, Sam?) Maybe Jason (our liaison with the JCP) can give us some light on this topic? Pier Florian Bruckner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I am sending this to

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Nicola Ken Barozzi
From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), then why measure them at all? If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), what is the way that this community has to decide whether a person

Re: FW: Howdy... just FYI, the bcel-dev archive mailing list linkis broken...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt
bcel-dev is just not on mail-archive.com.. It has to be subscribed, which I am trying to do currently ;)) Mvgr, Martin On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 19:58, Pier Fumagalli wrote: FYI, can someone with the right knowledge fix it? :) Pier -- [Perl] combines all the worst aspects of C and

Re: FW: Howdy... just FYI, the bcel-dev archive mailing list linkis broken...

2002-05-25 Thread Martin van den Bemt
Someone beat me to it ;) Mvgr, Martin On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 20:07, Martin van den Bemt wrote: bcel-dev is just not on mail-archive.com.. It has to be subscribed, which I am trying to do currently ;)) Mvgr, Martin On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 19:58, Pier Fumagalli wrote: FYI, can someone

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Nicola Ken Barozzi
From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is the way that *any* community decides in voting? You *are* a member of the community even if you do not have an account. http://xml.apache.org/roles.html : Developers Developers are

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Nicola Ken Barozzi
From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It does have the right to vote, but it's not binding (at least this is what Stefano told me two weeks ago). I don't want developers that are not committers to vote: a vote is important for the future

RE: Vicious Abuse?

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 17:40, Danny Angus wrote: Is it a vicious abuse to ask to free this community from a concept like meritocracy as the number of lines of code you put into CVS? I'm lagging behind here.. but, if you'll humor me, IMHO its naieve, and potentially harmful for the

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread costinm
On Sat, 25 May 2002, Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: I respect Craig mostly for the quality of his code ( even if I prefer different solutions and we disagree on many other things ), I respect Sam the most for keeping a low-key as 'PMC president' ( I never saw him use the 'I'm the PMC chair'

Re: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread costinm
On Sat, 25 May 2002, Pier Fumagalli wrote: Nope, we shouldn't but we should give it to those who ARE interested in the future of Jakarta, or XML, and _do_stuff_ for those project, but are not bound to a particular codebase. We should change our meter from being you contribute CODE to the

Re: welcoming and nurturing volunteers

2002-05-25 Thread Ceki Gülcü
At 10:07 25.05.2002 -0400, you wrote: Ceki Gülcü wrote: The motivational power of appreciation cannot be underestimated. The author is correct in emphasizing the point. What is not emphasized enough is the need for direction. What's the use of having a million volunteers if they all

RE: Vicious Abuse?

2002-05-25 Thread Andrew C. Oliver
On Sat, 2002-05-25 at 18:22, Danny Angus wrote: I think what I'm trying to say is that if we want to reconcile the conflicting aims of having a small manageable group who can communicate, and *reach**decisions* easily with encouraging large number of participants it needs to be in some way

RE: [PROPOSAL] Committer access and responsibilities...

2002-05-25 Thread Ignacio J. Ortega
De: Pier Fumagalli [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Enviado el: sábado 25 de mayo de 2002 19:52 If commit numbers are not so important (and I agree), what is the way that this community has to decide whether a person is a committer or not, given that as it is today, you're not recognized as