RE: [hackers] Release Strategy
This is great. I really don't think a big release is the way to go -- in fact, I think it would backfire. For this to work, I think I'll start offering particular services, like a "want to set up your own Dean website?" there are volunteers who can help. And then build off that, slowly and quietly. I'll work on the DFA page that can do this. Z Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of zachary rosen Sent: Monday, August 04, 2003 12:00 PM To: Joshua Koenig Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hackers] Release Strategy All sounds great Josh - ill get cracking on this stuff tonight with you. Also, i think a theme contest is in order for DeanSpace.org. Does 2 weeks sound like a long enough time? We can put a vote to the submitted themese - with the winner winning "Default". -Zack On Mon, 4 Aug 2003, Joshua Koenig wrote: > > This is going to be a big week for Dean. > > In our own corner of the universe, we've gone "live" with our new > website, deanspace.org. This is good stuff. Now we need to think > strategy. > > Basically, as soon as we start pushing this, we're going to get a lot > of interest from techies and regular campaign people alike. Deanspace > needs to channel that interest so it is rewarded and put to use, rather > than frustrated. > > Here are some ideas: > > 1) A "first time here?" page that explains what we're about > 2) A release schedule and strategy for our "vanilla" kit. > 3) A place for tech people to get the whole "alpha" package and start > messing around on their own. > 4) A place for regular campaign people to get a taste of what we're > offering (e.g. a freebie demo site) > > I'm going to take a stab at a "first time here" page. Anyone else > things think these are good ideas? > > cheers > -josh > > > > Politics is the art of controlling your environment. Participate! > Elect Howard Dean President in 2004! > http://www.outlandishjosh.com/politics/dean/ >
RE: [hackers] Action Module/Get Local
I think that project.module could be modified to do this. Since I'm the one that just played with it to create helpdesk.module I'm volunteering to take on action.module since media is stalled. >>>GREAT! I am unsure what "linking to the Get Local tools" means. Does this mean Get Local tools are going to continute to exist on DFA but that they want them integrated with DeanSpace or just that we want Get Local functionality? The ultimate goal I think, needs to be people *using* the tools. I have a Meetup listed in the Get Local tools and I know it's an undercount simple because people won't go there to sign up. >>>YEAH! Yes, we do want to continue to use GET LOCAL--and our focus in the next months is making it work as well as possible. We're hiring someone just to focus on the GET LOCAL improvements. Right now we're working on fixing about 20 things about it to make it more usable (and right now over 400 events/mo are on Get Local, so they are getting used--just not for Meetup). Also, action.module will be able to do more than what get local does. Plus, I'm not sure action.module could replace get local without every county immediately establishing a site... So I've answered my own question - in technical terms, right now at least, action.module isn't going to replace Get Local. >>>Right Though we do need a way to interact with Get Local. (Note to people working on profile modifications - make zip code mandatory.) >>> here's where we're going to get a feed from the Get Local tools to a boz that the modules can pull from, by zip or other criteria. So here's a question, now that I've shared my though process with you and this is mostly directed towards Zephyr: do we need an action module (that can do more than get local but can't replace it) or a get local interaction module first? I hazard a guess that Get Local is most important, but it is also going to require that get local somehow syndicates or makes publically available its information, which is something I don't have any control over... >>I think I answered this now -- does it make sense? We need a Get Local interaction module. We will make it public -- it's the top priority for us when we finalize a contract to make modifications. Thanks so much! ~Alison > Hey all! > > From DFA's perspective, we're interested in getting this kit out as soon > as possible -- and for a bunch of reasons, we don't think we can push > DMT. (Most of them, but not all, are legal, fwiw, but as such critical > to our lawyer's ok and getting this out the door.) If anyone has any > questions about this, feel free to get in touch with me offline. > > So for the kits that we push, at least, whether or not we suggest a link > to DMT, we've got to do a distributed system for the modules. > > Finally, I'd love to push the vanilla version as soon as possible - I > don't want to push you guys, but I believe that the usability of the kit > depends on people using it, experimenting, telling us what works, and > then improving it. Much more important than the media part is the > section linking to the Get Local tools. It should be a simple module, > but its critical to us that people use these tools to reach out in their > community. > > What's your collective sense of time frame? > > Thanks so much. > > Z > > The work DMT has done is fantastic, but, in brief, centralized nervous > systems create a different set of responsibilities for the campaign. In > fact, just a few issues with the video production related to a > centralized system can throw off our ability to connect to it at all. We > have to be cautious here -- I'm sorry if its tough. > > Zephyr Teachout > Internet Organizing & Outreach > Dean for America > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup > Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com > Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > On Behalf Of Ka-Ping Yee > Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 2:40 AM > To: Zack Rosen > Cc: 'Jon Lebkowsky'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [hackers] Edge-to-Edge Principle / Reed's Law > > Zack & Jon -- i'm not sure it's a good idea to copy David Reed and Larry > Lessig on these huge e-mail messages. It might be impolite to ask their > opinion Without giving them the context of the discussion. > > (And for God's sake i finally had to fix the spelling in the subject. I > couldn't take it any more...) > > Anyway, i just wanted to address one thing for now -- > > On Sat, 2 Aug 2003, Zack Rosen wrote: >> So ei
[hackers] DFA's Kit, Media Team, and Time Frame
Hey all! >From DFA's perspective, we're interested in getting this kit out as soon as possible -- and for a bunch of reasons, we don't think we can push DMT. (Most of them, but not all, are legal, fwiw, but as such critical to our lawyer's ok and getting this out the door.) If anyone has any questions about this, feel free to get in touch with me offline. So for the kits that we push, at least, whether or not we suggest a link to DMT, we've got to do a distributed system for the modules. Finally, I'd love to push the vanilla version as soon as possible - I don't want to push you guys, but I believe that the usability of the kit depends on people using it, experimenting, telling us what works, and then improving it. Much more important than the media part is the section linking to the Get Local tools. It should be a simple module, but its critical to us that people use these tools to reach out in their community. What's your collective sense of time frame? Thanks so much. Z The work DMT has done is fantastic, but, in brief, centralized nervous systems create a different set of responsibilities for the campaign. In fact, just a few issues with the video production related to a centralized system can throw off our ability to connect to it at all. We have to be cautious here -- I'm sorry if its tough. Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ka-Ping Yee Sent: Saturday, August 02, 2003 2:40 AM To: Zack Rosen Cc: 'Jon Lebkowsky'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hackers] Edge-to-Edge Principle / Reed's Law Zack & Jon -- i'm not sure it's a good idea to copy David Reed and Larry Lessig on these huge e-mail messages. It might be impolite to ask their opinion Without giving them the context of the discussion. (And for God's sake i finally had to fix the spelling in the subject. I couldn't take it any more...) Anyway, i just wanted to address one thing for now -- On Sat, 2 Aug 2003, Zack Rosen wrote: > So either the media-network intelligence goes in the nodes of the > network, or it goes straight to the center of the Dean Media Team > mother-ship. A few times now you've talked about "having to get permission from DMT" or being "controlled by DMT", and now the "DMT mother-ship". It's clear that you don't like the idea of someone else telling us what to do. But it's unfair to describe DMT so adversarially, as though they were some sort of independent controlling entity. There is no "us" and "them". We are all on the same team. We're in this together. Would you feel different if we were talking about america.fordean.net as the search hub instead? Why does it matter? Slashdot has a reasonably open moderation system, where they hand out moderator access to lots of people. The end result of the moderation is a pretty good consensus on which comments are informative and which ones are pointless flames. And i don't have a sense that the discussion there is being stifled or censored by single-minded moderation. (The discussions may be biased because of the user population, but that's a different thing). Would you be so unhappy with a system that worked as well as Slashdot? It would probably be better, since (a) we wouldn't be relying on a couple of dictators to select all the articles, and (b) our user population would probably be better-behaved. -- ?!ng
[hackers] this postcard function seems pretty effective
So you all have probably talked about this in some long ago post, but adapting this postcard function: http://www.tim2002.com/timcontents/postcards/send.shtml to easily localized postcards would be great. Z Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute
RE: [hackers] Easing potential conflict between 'homegrown' sites and DeanSpace
Dave et al -- As I said last night in the chat, I think the modules will be the most heavily used part of this -- already tech-savvy groups will want to hook into aspects, but not all, of this service. In fact, I think introducing the service as module or site will vastly increase the likelihood of it catching on and connecting communities. Thanks so much Z Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dave Pentecost Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2003 10:37 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hackers] Easing potential conflict between 'homegrown' sites and DeanSpace Hello all I've been onboard since early on, basically lurking and following the email exchanges. But I'm glad that Josh S. has brought back the idea of non-Drupal modules. I suggested a while back that there be an MT module for bloggers, to put into a sidebar. I think that if we reach out to some of the more political webloggers using MT we could get help creating and distributing it. While you folks are busy with Drupal, I'll start looking into this angle. If anybody has additional ideas on separate modules, let me know. Dave Pentecost I expect no one to > be excited about abandoning their current sites... I > expect few to be enthusiastic _beyond the initial > excitement_ about maintaining an additional site that > does not contribute to their current, "homegrown" > sites. So could we develop stand-alone (non-drupal) > modules (in php, asp, jsp, others? or perhaps just > one, in client-side javascript?) that groups can put > on their current sites, that will display (not alter, > just display) the RSS feeds, thereby allowing a > measure of integration between "homegrown" sites and > DeanSpace nodes? Autonomy being the foundation of a > grassroots movement, we don't want people to feel like > DeanSpace is hijacking or upstaging their own work. > > Better yet, do such stand-alone modules already exist, > GPL'd, and do they need to be expanded for our needs? > Will we provide these as part of (or alongside) our > kit? > > Peace, > Josh Swartzbaugh > [Madoc] > > > __ > Do you Yahoo!? > Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software > http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com
RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc
What josh said :) Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joshua Koenig Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:03 PM To: Aldon Hynes Cc: Zephyr Teachout; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc > Independent of the terminology, I believe it is crucial > for any sort of online community building tool to facilitate > interaction > between the users above and beyond merely listing information. I am > concerned from what I am hearing, that such functionality seems to be > missing from 'Deanster' and I feel that needs to be addressed. What you see now is an attempt at a first iteration of this service. I find the three-step development methodology of "crawl, walk, run" to generally be helpful. Right now all the campaign has is a bank of email addresses and no way to connect them. Step one is to let people put a face to the name, seek each other out and make connections. Step two will be allowing them to express themselves a little more through the system. Step three will be layering on the xpertweb tools to handle reputation and tasks. > It may be that it is best addressed by avoiding too strong a > bifurcation > between 'Deanster' and 'DeanSpace'. Indeed. When it comes to creating voluminous content and original forms of expression, we need to trust that people will find a place for that in the wider deanspace (or just online in general), and can link to that via their profile. This is the same as how I link to my own blog from my ryze profile. > P.S. Personally, I think the Friendster UI sucks. Different strokes for different folks I suppose. The layout on Ryze is highly overcrowded and chaotic to my eye. Friendster is a lot more simple. cheers -j
RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc
Aldon,
I see at as two different kinds of connection we are trying to enable:
(1) end to end individuals(friendster)
(2) end to end group to group (blogging --deanspace)
Both are critical. The latter is distributed, the former is centralized,
and they work together. The former is simple, and moderated, and safe --
the latter is someone complex, nonmoderated, and highly expressive. I
think that answers your concerns, which are critical. I think its also
important to give people very safe, small steps for political
engagement.
Z
Zephyr Teachout
Internet Organizing & Outreach
Dean for America
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup
Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com
Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute
-Original Message-
From: Aldon Hynes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, July 29, 2003 2:57 PM
To: Zephyr Teachout; 'Joshua Koenig'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc
Well, I'm trying to catch up on everything that happened over the
weekend
while I was off at the folk music festival.
So, I'm sorry if I'm covering things that have already been covered, but
I
would like to throw in my two cents here.
Zephyr, I respectfully disagree with you on the importance of public
expression in whatever sort of space is created. The public expression
is
crucial in establishing a sense of a cohesive community and in
facilitating
different people in connecting.
Let me illustrate: On Friendster, I am connected to 157232 people in my
Personal Network, through 17 friends. However, friendster doesn't
facilitate communicating with others in a manner that develops
community.
As such, I haven't made any useful new contacts.
On the other hand, communities like www.ryze.com and www.ecademy.com do
a
much better job of promoting community through things like blogging.
So, I strongly encourage facilities to promote blogging. Granted, there
are
other venues, including posting comments on the official blog, having
your
own blogs, etc., but I believe having blogs, forums, or similar tools as
part of Deanspace will make it much more effective.
Zephyr raises the issue of moderation. DFA doesn't have the staff to
vet
who posts or what posts remain if we have a giant network of people
posting.
However, following the paradigm of self organizing systems, and the
example
of DMOZ, I don't believe that is important. Every site that gets set up
will have its administrators and/or moderators. This is no different
than
the close to 400 mailing lists that have already been set up. These
moderators can be as controlling or free flowing as they feel
comfortable
with and fits their particular community.
Part of the beauty of a truly distributed system like this, is that I
can
(or should be able to), as moderator of one system decide what content I
pick up from other systems. This provides a natural feedback system.
Those
sites that develop a good sense of community through an appropriate
level of
moderation will end up producing more valuable content, which will get
more
widely distributed.
So, that's my two cents on the role of blogs, content, moderation and
community building within DeanSpace.
Comments?
Aldon
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Zephyr Teachout
Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 1:53 PM
To: 'Joshua Koenig'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc
This is fantastic. Thanks Josh! I believe that if we get this up and
running, over 500,000 people will use it. I do -- over 1,000,000 on
friendster, and they aren't trying to change the world :)
The single biggest request we get from folks in the field is "how do I
find other Dean supporters." This provides that means. It's a top
priority for the campaign, and if we can provide other resources to help
make it happen, ask me and I'll do everything I can do provide them.
The one thing that I would change in Josh's model is just that we are
not thinking of this as a place for public expression ("why I support
Dean") not because we don't want that expression, but because
(1) there are other venues for it, and
(2) it drastically (or almost completely) eviscerates the
moderation/management needs if we don't provide that space--if there is
no "enter your own content here" but all pick and choose and links to
forum, we don't need to vet who enters at ALL which is ideal (this is
the big diff between us and friendster -- we don't have staff who can
routinely check every new person and we don't have people who want to
kill the campaign by posting obscene or harassing posts (that's the big
concern, not dissent).
I'm thinking that we'll just modify our extensive registration to
include all these elements (we're modifying anyway), and then feed th
RE: [hackers] RE: More on Deanster Participant Content
I don't really like deanster myself, but at least we all know what we mean :). We'll put up a naming thread later -- but keep coming up w/ideas! Z Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jay R. Ashworth Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 2:43 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hackers] RE: More on Deanster Participant Content On Mon, Jul 28, 2003 at 02:41:44PM -0500, Jon Lebkowsky wrote: > One other point about Deanster: you might get some flak from Friendster if > you combine that concept with that name. The Friendster guys aren't > necessarily Dean supporters. Zephyr, you might discuss with legal whether > there's any exposure - obviously it's a great name but a legal hassle would > make it counterproductive, I'm afraid. Do you really think so, Jon, inasmuch as they're *both* (fairly explicitly) derivative of "Napster", which in itself didn't really mean anything? Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Technical Staff Baylink RFC 2100 The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Floridahttp://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows -- Simon Slavin, on a.f.c
[hackers] RE: More on Deanster Participant Content
Sure, I think it might work. But there is a more basic role for Deanster, and the reason for its urgency (w/the idea of experimenting w/this functionality on top of it). People can't find eachother. Dean supporters in the same area can't find eachother. Dean supporters w/the same interests can't find eachother. We have, incredibly, a nationwide movement of people who happen to run into eachother if they use the get local tools -- or show up wearing buttons -- or are on a listserv. Imagine what it could be if I could search for local people to ask them to join me? The second-and third-level functions are those Josh talked about -- and ultimately very important -- Z Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: Joshua Koenig [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:13 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Zephyr Teachout Subject: More on Deanster Participant Content After Zephyr's previous posting about content for Deanster, I just wanted to give y'all a little more of my vision for the whole Deanster "user expression" piece. You're indubitably "the boss" on this one, so the call is yours, but I wanted to give you the whole nine yards. The notion for this sprung from the fact that there's a wealth of ideas and content being created by the devotees of the Official Campaign Blog. Originally, I had thought of hacking Movable Type so that there would be a way for users to "concur" with other users' comments; to mark them as an idea, a phrase, a story worth saving. This way at the end of the day, you can have someone from your team browse through the 25 most "highlighted" posts. Creating a way for the Official Site to grant recognition to stellar user participation will spur greater participation as well as greater quality. From that came a discussion with Britt about how deanforamerica.com might be re-designed. I've attached an image of what he's come up with. It shows the idea pretty well: a quote from a participant for every section. This would be easy enough to set up if it were static, but my immediate thought was that it should be dynamic. It should be a rotation of many quotes, which will further drive participation as it shows that everyone has a chance of having their voice heard. But for you to try and do this -- incorporate participant content -- requires some structure be built around it. So I thought of a facility on Deanster which would let you elicit on-topic quotes from your userbase; there would be some administrative overhead in terms of flagging content either as "worth highlighting" (good) or "administrative review" (bad), but this won't take much time at all. 90% of it can be done by users. Here's how: 1) Most of the content will be neither worth posting on DFA or worth badgering anyone about in terms of taking it down. The process I describe here will happen less than 10% of the time. 2) Objectionable content (e.g. explicit photos, objectionable statements) can be flagged by any user and quickly addressed by the moderation staff. If you create an environment that doesn't provide an opportunity to create entropy, then it won't happen. In other words, if people don't see bogus profiles, they're far less likely to try it themselves. 3) High-quality content can also be flagged by any user (though not for themselves), and dealt with in the same fashion. 4) Volunteer moderators (trusted participants) can further vet flagged content. People will kill to have this job. They can send warning letters to objectionable content posters and give a more seasoned "thumbs up" to high-quality profiles. 5) Finally, one staff member can invest an hour a day selecting the best of the best and flagging them as worthy of the DFA homepage. Likewise they can take the official action of booting people who don't respond to a warning letter. At this point were talking about 1% of total posts, so it's not really a lot of overhead. Do we think this will cure a potential troll problem? IMHO, rigorous moderation is sufficient for stopping harmful BS. By giving users a "flag for review" button, you give them a means of doing something about trolls without feeding them. cheers -josh Politics is the art of controlling your environment. Participate! Elect Howard Dean President in 2004! http://www.outlandishjosh.com/politics/dean/
RE: [hackers] Privacy control for profiles
Great. I'm working on fields, which are primarily driven by fields here -- Plus. The other plus is info about the nodes they are involved in. Z Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: Joshua Koenig [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 11:40 AM To: Ka-Ping Yee Cc: Jon Lebkowsky; Zephyr Teachout; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hackers] Privacy control for profiles > I agree. Giving members privacy control over their profile information > encourages them to share more information and add more value to the > database. (It's also respectful and polite.) Preaching to the Choir here. ;) > I've been working on an enhanced profile module -- please use it or > build > off of it if it can help you. Currently, it has the following features > in addition to the standard profile module: We should coordinate on this. Part of my vision is having matching fields between an extended Drupal profile and Deanster. That way when people register for a Drupal Node they can check a box to simultaneously create a Deanster profile. This works both ways: when registering for a Drupal Node, the enhanced registration will ask, "are you a Deanster" and if so it will create a useful default profile from your data there. Deanster could also act as a (Jabber/Drupal) single-sign-on point for any Drupal Dean Nodes a Deanster also frequents. > I'll post a link to this module on the TalentDatabase page. Please > let me know what you think of it. Excellent. I'll review it further. cheers -josh
[hackers] Deanster run at DFA
Just catching the tail end of this, but we're fully planning to run deanster, I've got the server space planned, and I'm looking to hire for someone to administer. So all we're doing is making sure its designed in a way we can manage. There's a lot of projects we're going to build on this, and it runs off our main database (we'll be sending out email asking folks to register additional info to fill out deanster profile). This is one that we're completely committed to -- and it would be silly to set up rival deansters off site! Z Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: Joshua Koenig [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:26 PM To: zachary rosen Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Zephyr Teachout; Jon Lebkowsky; Ka-Ping Yee Subject: Re: [hackers] Privacy control for profiles >>> We talked about this with Zephyr, and the deal is - if DFA run >>> Deanster >>> then it cannot handle Authentication for the Nodes or they would have >>> to >>> be vetted by DFA (ie official) so I don't think this is possible. >> >> What about the opposite direction? Can unofficial nodes act as >> single-signons for Deanster? All this implies is that Deanster will >> trust an external source for identity validation, a necessary >> component >> of any distributed identity framework. To put it another way, how is >> this different from Deanster accepting MS Passport validation? > > I don't see any problem with the opposite direction. THere shouldnt be > any bad implications of Deanster using trusted node logins that I can > think of. The issue with nodes using Deanster logins is that - if the > nodes authentication is "controlled" by "official" DFA services, then > the > nodes must become official / vetted as well. This make sense? It does make some sense. I think it's a little over-cautious (e.g. MS doesn't have to "endorse" every site that wants to use Passport) but it's not that big a deal. Having it work by allowing local Nodes to be trusted sources for identity is probably better anyway. More of a foundation for distributed architecture. cheers -josh
RE: [hackers] Privacy control for profiles
Not quite! DFA is planning on running Deanster. We're just not vetting nodes or hosting them. No reason we can't link to them, map them, and push them (much like we do w/dean directory). We're just not controlling, directing, or hosting them. Z Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: zachary rosen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 12:07 PM To: Joshua Koenig Cc: Ka-Ping Yee; Jon Lebkowsky; Zephyr Teachout; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hackers] Privacy control for profiles On Mon, 28 Jul 2003, Joshua Koenig wrote > Deanster could also act as a (Jabber/Drupal) single-sign-on point for > any Drupal Dean Nodes a Deanster also frequents. We talked about this with Zephyr, and the deal is - if DFA run Deanster then it cannot handle Authentication for the Nodes or they would have to be vetted by DFA (ie official) so I don't think this is possible. -Zack
RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc
Agreed. Ultimately there will be more room for this, but I want to focus
on basic model first. Also, the fact of limited expression will actually
drive people to two things we're excited about -- conversations
w/eachother and setting up their own nodes.
Z
Zephyr Teachout
Internet Organizing & Outreach
Dean for America
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup
Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com
Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Joshua Koenig
Sent: Monday, July 28, 2003 11:36 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc
> The one thing that I would change in Josh's model is just that we are
> not thinking of this as a place for public expression ("why I support
> Dean") not because we don't want that expression, but because
> (1) there are other venues for it, and
> (2) it drastically (or almost completely) eviscerates the
> moderation/management needs if we don't provide that space--if there
is
> no "enter your own content here" but all pick and choose and links to
> forum, we don't need to vet who enters at ALL which is ideal (this is
> the big diff between us and friendster -- we don't have staff who can
> routinely check every new person and we don't have people who want to
> kill the campaign by posting obscene or harassing posts (that's the
big
> concern, not dissent).
I built this in after talking with Britt about the idea for future
Howard Dean sites to include rotating "volunteer statements" as part of
the design. Also, for this to work users need to be at least able to
tell other people a little about them.
If you're worried about Trolls (people trying to sabotage the system
socially), the best way to deal is to have a "flag for review" button
ala Friendster. Let the users do 90% of the moderation for you.
> It seems if we can do that and roll it out, we can then add other
> features like uploading contacts and rating -- but I'm not the
> programming guru.
Yes, a phased approach is best. I'll turn out some more detail today.
Then we start breaking this (and MetaDean) into discreet chunks and
handing off the work. You know, the fun part.
cheers
-j
RE: [hackers] Ooops - Sunday IRC meeting :) ....
Man, can't make it again -- we're having big budget meeting. Enjoy & thousands of thanks from here. Z Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zack Rosen Sent: Sunday, July 27, 2003 2:59 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [hackers] Ooops - Sunday IRC meeting :) #hack4dean. Was supposed to start an hour ago - but do to my very bad memory has been rescheduled for 4:15 PM; ie in 15 minutes. Come join us, we are throwing up a topic list right now. Sorry for the messup, -Zack
RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc
Oh, and (1) I'll start the profile table (to match with our data guy) and (2) I thought Phil's Indiana's comments were very useful, and spot on in a lot of ways. I think the RSS feeds will be used in modules (am I using the right terminology? Likely not) mostly by existing groups, and then you'll see the following development: get involved in campaign leads to sign up for Deanster (working Name, I know I know) leads to finding friends and making contacts w/similar interests leads to lets start our own page leads to hey, there's a way to start our own page and stay connected (deanspace( My hunch is you'll see 500,000 on Deanster, and 500 or so drupal groups, and any more of the latter would be too many. But we'll see! You never know, which is part of the excitement -- we do know that what you're working on is responding to real grassroots needs right now, but not how folks will end up using them. Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joshua Koenig Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 5:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc Here's a draft of my design doc for Deanster (a.k.a. the talend database, the visible volunteers, the "front room"). Please excuse the parts that aren't quite filled in yet and feel free to correct me where I'm wrong: http://www.hack4dean.org/phpwiki/index.php?TalentDatabase peace -josh Politics is the art of controlling your environment. Participate! Elect Howard Dean President in 2004! http://www.outlandishjosh.com/politics/dean/
RE: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc
This is fantastic. Thanks Josh! I believe that if we get this up and
running, over 500,000 people will use it. I do -- over 1,000,000 on
friendster, and they aren't trying to change the world :)
The single biggest request we get from folks in the field is "how do I
find other Dean supporters." This provides that means. It's a top
priority for the campaign, and if we can provide other resources to help
make it happen, ask me and I'll do everything I can do provide them.
The one thing that I would change in Josh's model is just that we are
not thinking of this as a place for public expression ("why I support
Dean") not because we don't want that expression, but because
(1) there are other venues for it, and
(2) it drastically (or almost completely) eviscerates the
moderation/management needs if we don't provide that space--if there is
no "enter your own content here" but all pick and choose and links to
forum, we don't need to vet who enters at ALL which is ideal (this is
the big diff between us and friendster -- we don't have staff who can
routinely check every new person and we don't have people who want to
kill the campaign by posting obscene or harassing posts (that's the big
concern, not dissent).
I'm thinking that we'll just modify our extensive registration to
include all these elements (we're modifying anyway), and then feed the
Data to deanster. The tricks then, are
(1) how to display the information
(2) how to search
Right? The critical thing for the search is that people who are
currently online show up first, but if we start with a really clumsy
search (almost like an excel spreadsheet) we could at least get going.
We're a shoot first improve later campaign, in many ways, but esp. for
this one -- the basic functionality will be heaven for people.
It seems if we can do that and roll it out, we can then add other
features like uploading contacts and rating -- but I'm not the
programming guru.
What do you all think?
Zephyr Teachout
Internet Organizing & Outreach
Dean for America
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup
Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com
Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Joshua Koenig
Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 5:57 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [hackers] Draft Deanster Design Doc
Here's a draft of my design doc for Deanster (a.k.a. the talend
database, the visible volunteers, the "front room"). Please excuse the
parts that aren't quite filled in yet and feel free to correct me where
I'm wrong:
http://www.hack4dean.org/phpwiki/index.php?TalentDatabase
peace
-josh
Politics is the art of controlling your environment. Participate!
Elect Howard Dean President in 2004!
http://www.outlandishjosh.com/politics/dean/
RE: [hackers] RE: [developers] MetaDean NodeTracking Design Doc
I'd vote for feeds for "hot" items (not knowing anything about programming part of it). Seems like that would make lots of intuitive sense to everyone on the receiving end. Its how I've been describing it -- and whatever we do, describing it is important, too. But I don't have a good alternative vision -- Z Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Zack Rosen Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 1:04 AM To: 'Joshua Koenig' Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [hackers] RE: [developers] MetaDean NodeTracking Design Doc Looks great so far Josh, but my one big question is - how does MetaDean assign ratings to content so that it can be bubbled up? Will sites ping the server? Or will it just have feeds for "hot" items? Or is there an easier way to do this that my addled brain isn't coming up with right now? -Zack -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joshua Koenig Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 3:18 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Zephyr Teachout Subject: [developers] MetaDean NodeTracking Design Doc A first stab at a design doc for node-tracking MetaDean is here: http://www.hack4dean.org/phpwiki/index.php?NodeTracking If no one else does it, I'll hammer out a first-draft SQL schema over the weekend. The other big question now is where we're going to set up our sandbox. Note that when I talk about MetaDean from now on, I'm talking about tracking nodes/sites and content only, not talent. The talent stuff is going under the Visible Volunteer social networking tool (aka Deanster). Unless there are objections, of course. ;) cheers -josh Politics is the art of controlling your environment. Participate! Elect Howard Dean President in 2004! http://www.outlandishjosh.com/politics/dean/
RE: [hackers] A current endorse dean page...
The talent db is misnamed, really -- it has a talent db function, but the real trick is in the display, ALA friendster, and the social community building. Its not about the info coming in (really easy) -- more about the way of showing it that induces connections (find a neighbor for dean). Z Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Neil Drumm Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 1:14 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hackers] A current endorse dean page... >From what I know about endorse it is a form you fill out and spam all your friends with some premade Dean messages. That link looks like something to gather names (which we can also do, where do we put them?). The deanvolunteers page is closer to the talent database. How is that part going? We won't be duplicating or conflicting with the DeanVolunteers effort if we make that will we? -Neil Original message >Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 13:03:42 -0400 >From: Shannon Little <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: [hackers] A current endorse dean page... >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Here is the link: > >http://www.deanvolunteers.org/DeanVolunteers/top_ten.asp#7 >
RE: [hackers] Goals
Hey guys, let me know if you want some sites to test on -- there are dozens of sites out there that would be interested in knowing about this, and I'd like to start giving some folks the headsup that you're working on it, if nothing else (also I'm so damn thrilled about the whole project its hard to keep in)-- let me know what you think, & when I can leak it more publicly, Z Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ka-Ping Yee Sent: Friday, July 25, 2003 2:41 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hackers] Goals On Thu, 24 Jul 2003 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Most of you don't know me very well yet but I am all about action and > immediacy wherever possible. Goals are important to keep us on track, and > since last week's goals were not met, I think some level of dialogue is > needed. I propose the following timeline goals: > > A week from now all modules will be written. I understand the need for urgency, but i don't see how you can be comfortable setting deadlines for everyone at this point. That might be an appropriate thing to try if you understood the degree of complexity of each module and the status of progress on each module -- but some of the modules haven't been specified, and some haven't even been claimed by anyone yet, so there's no way anyone could possibly know that. I do think the enthusiasm is good. Let's just try to avoid setting wildly unrealistic goals. (Why do i think this is unrealistic? With respect to the media module, unless you are already way ahead of me on the code -- if so, great, but we should communicate -- there's no way it will be done next week. I'll continue the discussion of complexity and unresolved issues regarding the media module on the developers list.) I agree with you that setting goals is good -- when we set them, they have to be both realistic and specific. -- ?!ng
RE: [hackers] How about deancountry.com?
Hey, no knocking country! For names, I since we'll host the kits somewhere on DFA.com, the public name of the website service will be diff. than the name of the dev community (since my sense is that you all want to remain a loose collective doing vol work but not officially on campaign). Here's the plan from our pov: (1) We host kit service (2) We host the deanster wannabe (talent db, as zack calls it) (3) You (dev com) host yourselves (but you're welcome to be hosted by us) (4) Groups that use the kits host themselves (and are not welcome to be hosted by us cuz then we'd have to be responsible for content, which nobody wants) The naming q could be: (a) about -you- (name of dev. Com) (b) suggestion to the campaign about kit hosting place (c) suggestion to the campaign about the suggestions to the dean community sites about how to brand Seems to me there's a conflation of a, b & c -- inasmuch as they are b & c, I like deanspace fwiw, but I'm not the message guru :) -- will share w/staff. Am I the conflated one, or do I have it right? Z Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CMR Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 12:19 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hackers] How about deancountry.com? Subject: [hackers] How about deancountry.com? > The name is available and I posted on the forum poll as to why I think > it would be a good choice. People tend to associate web sites with > .com most of all (especially the average web user) and it might be > better to go for something with a .com domain. Just my two cents. > > Sounds like a handle that would appeal more to dubya's crowd to me; as in "y'all hippie tree-huggers from vermont ain't country!" IMHO CMR <--enter gratuitous quotation that implies my profundity here-->
RE: [hackers] Re: Legal Issues and dodo birds
"I think, as much as anything else, the job over here in hackland is going to be to get the questions down into single sentences without losing anything..." Yep! We certainly haven't answered everything, but there are a bunch of things we have made decisions on, and I'm happy to answer any questions! And no, this opensource/presidential campaign confluence is a hell of a fun ride! Just let Rove try it :) Z Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jay R. Ashworth Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 3:00 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hackers] Re: Legal Issues and dodo birds On Wed, Jul 23, 2003 at 02:43:07PM -0500, zachary rosen wrote: > Astute observations CMR - I don't disagree with a word you said. If we > are official, then we have sold out. > > That being said I remain almost completly unconcerned with the problems of > such a close association. All through the process of deciding how > "official" our organization would be come it was made clear that it would > be a conscious choice, and to knowledge there was not one objection. > > Yes there are very real conflicts with this development community having > such close ties with the official campaign, but in my opinion the problems > are almost completly mitigated by the fact that this project is completly > open source. Or maybe not. I think that, as I noted in my immediately previous email, delineating between a4d and h4d is probably something close to critical here. *I* tend to think a4d might get embroiled, but that h4d probably shouldn't, and that that split will make lots of people lots of happier. But what do *I* know; I just got here. :-) > * Yes, HQ is very concerned about the name "hack" and in my opinion it is > very probable we will change our name because of it. The fact that a > _presidential campaign_ - the official campaign - is willing to embrace > and endorse an open source development project is so outragously cool that > name of the working group working on the tools isn't so important to me > personally anymore. Besides, i would rather win this election than save > the word "hack". Speak for yourself. :-) > * Correct, the fact that the development community is becoming somewhat > "official" spells out conflict with the abilities for the communities > using our software to voice their opinion. However, HQ has already stated > and I truly believe that communities using our tools will remain > unofficial, and thus unrestricted by the official campaign. There are > very reall PR and legal reasons why this must be so, beyond perceivable > conflicts between control over the campaign message. That doesn't seem to coincide with what I think I've heard Z say here in the last 24 hours. Now, I understand that Burlington probably doesn't *know* how to approach this; no one has ever tried, I don't think, to intersect something as free-wheeling as open-source with something as tightly-controlled as a presidential campaign. And yes, we can't afford to make as many mistakes here. And yes, we need strategic thinking. And yes, (alas) they're likely to have to come from the political side of the house. I think, as much as anything else, the job over here in hackland is going to be to get the questions down into single sentences without losing anything... At least, that's what I've done for clients for about 20 years, and it seems to work well. If I can help... Cheers, -- jra -- Jay R. Ashworth [EMAIL PROTECTED] Member of the Technical Staff Baylink RFC 2100 The Suncoast Freenet The Things I Think Tampa Bay, Floridahttp://baylink.pitas.com +1 727 647 1274 OS X: Because making Unix user-friendly was easier than debugging Windows -- Simon Slavin, on a.f.c
RE: [hackers] To answer one simple question
Ah! I'm sorry. And I did mean it exactly like free lunch, with the tone, too -- I'm glad you picked up on it (I realized later that it sounded gruff :). Thanks for the help & advice -- very useful, Z Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: Jon Lebkowsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 2:16 PM To: Zephyr Teachout; 'Howard Vicini'; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [hackers] To answer one simple question [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thank you for those who offer, but there is no such thing as pro bono > hosting, and any donated services from a corporation count as illegal > corporate donations. A couple of points: 1) "no such thing as pro bono hosting": I assume you must mean that's it's something you can't accept. There is definitely such a thing, because we do it all the time. If you mean "no such thing as a free lunch," that's sort of true, and in this case we figure it serves our self-interest to keep the U.S. from crumbling. :) 2) If you look closely what I said was that we had considered it. It's not really practical because of the expected volume. The point I was trying to make, and must have made badly, is that we'll work to ensure that you get the best hosting deal, whether it's with Polycot or somebody else. If we host we don't want to plaster our name all over the site. Our interest is in making sure you have a site that works. best, Jon Jon Lebkowsky CEO/Catalyst, Polycot http://www.polycot.com
RE: [hackers] Re: Legal Issues and dodo birds
Hey CMR: I was under the (perhaps mis)apprehension that all this had been hashed out with the hackers, but it sounds like it may not have been. Of course it's a tough choice. You guys have two choices, really: (1) work w/the campaign (2) work outside the campaign We're not indifferent to what you decide to do -- the opposite, really (you are a complete godsend, and can transform the campaign) -- but completely respect whatever you decide upon. It is your choice. I see the main advantage of working with the campaign being, from a political point of view, that the work you are doing can not only win the presidency but transform politics. Because there is a driver behind it -- Dean -- it will grow exponentially. The main disadvantage is that HQ ultimately has to make final decisions on content, presentation, and legal issues. The legal issues come up throughout, because they are the hammer of the conservatives. The content and presentation come up as the project nears completion. The closer we work together, the easier it will be to take the project immediately into the public sphere. We at HQ are committed to building a kit that allows decentralized, bottom up creativity and communication. We want to build something that allows each Dean site to control its own content and still be connected to the movements of the campaign, official and unofficial. That kit, perversely, as the expression of the campaign's commitment, is extremely important -- in legal as well as message presentation. I REALLY REALLY hope you decide (or affirm, if it is already decided) to work with us. It will be very hard for us to do it another way. I believe, personally, that the functionality built here will take off and be used to transform politics altogether, but that Dean is the driving force that will allow it to happen -- and our coordination, and a close connection to the campaign, will be the synergy necessary to make it work. In my vision, Howard Dean will not just mention Meetups on the stump, but setting up Dean Community Sites. I really believe this is the next phase of the revolution -- and I'm sorry if you're feeling some of the constraints, but I hope you decide that they are worth it. Thanks so much, Z Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of CMR Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 10:49 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [hackers] Re: Legal Issues and dodo birds > I talked to our lawyer again and he urged me STRONGLY to please ask you > guys not to deal with legal issues. This is different than Meetup hosts, > where people are looking for legal advice as independent groups, and not > coordinated with the campaign. Since we're working together, and > building a product the campaign will offer as a service, it is critical > that all legal decisions be made by Eric. > Observation time boys and girls: As this thread develops, I think it's becoming clear just what the difference is in becoming a movement "of Dean" as opposed to one "for Dean". I'm not passing judgment here, but just making the observation that ceding the independence of the project, and subsequently it's ultimate nature and function, comes at a "price".As do all choices. We've reached (and passed?) a crossroads here. Coordinating with Burlington in a evermore "intimate" manner way well be the optimal path to follow at this juncture, but that's a judgment call; anyone who says it's not, is being disingenuous. We (or some of us, in any case) have become "players" and that's a seductive experience indeed. But players often are required to play by someone else's rules. Nothing wrong with that, right? Got to have rules, after all. Thing is, I recall Zack's first posts regarding this "vision" on the coffeehouse list. He was carrying on about decentralized organic networks and reeds law and so forth... I could hear the eyes roll. But he got my attention because I see the cosmos as an "organic", adaptive, interconnected thing. A complex open self-organizing system so to speak. And the thing about open systems is that you start with some very simple ground rules and then you get out of the way. It'll make it's own rules from then on and if you try constrain it with boxes, or walls or straight lines it'll either overwhelm you or it'll die. But what it won't be is the same. My rather circuitous point here is simply that by choosing to directly link the project into the Dean organization, we lose some of that self-directed, self-sustaining, and, yes, self-organizing character; for
[hackers] Naming
We don't want to call it a network, for a bunch of reasons. (a) First, it suggests control or centralness -- which we don't want (i.e, join our network instead of start your site). (b) The same as (a) but for legal reasons (c) It creates a sense of barrier -- the critical thing is to Instead, we are going to present it as a kit. Would you like to start your own website for Dean? It's not hard. We'll provide you the tools do it, and there are hundreds of volunteer administrators who will help to make it easy. The question, then, is what to call the kit? Ultimately, that's a Trippi question, but lets generate lots of ideas. My working name is "Dean Community Sites" or "Dean Space Community Sites" Start your own ... Here are our campaign themes, generally stated: Bringing people back into the political process Restoring our role as an idealistic moral force in the world Building a New American Community We also use "people-powered howard" frequently. Start your own... people powered howard site? Zephyr Teachout Internet Evangelist Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Britt Blaser Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 9:39 AM To: Ka-Ping Yee Cc: zrosen; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hackers] Name by Thursday midnight There was no consensus last weekend, but I have snagged deantownhall.com which seemed better than a lot of others. Britt __ On Wednesday, July 23, 2003, at 12:33 AM, Ka-Ping Yee wrote: > On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, zrosen wrote: >> So - we will decide the name for the network by Thursday correct? >> - thats the deal, no? > > Did campaign HQ have any suggestions, restrictions, or preferences > regarding the name of our network? > > > -- ?!ng > >
[hackers] To answer one simple question
Thank you for those who offer, but there is no such thing as pro bono hosting, and any donated services from a corporation count as illegal corporate donations. Thanks! Z Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Howard Vicini Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 12:14 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hackers] MINORITY REPORT ... Jon and Jeff ... That is truly great news! Thank you ... -howard Howard Vicini computer graphics, prepress, animation & web design San Francisco Dean url www.bayarea4dean.com personal url www.vicini.net email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo IM howardvicini AIM IM howardvicini voice 415-522-1555 - Original Message - From: "Jon Lebkowsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Howard Vicini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "CMR" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Zephyr Teachout" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Zack Rosen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Aldon Hynes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 9:15 PM Subject: RE: [hackers] MINORITY REPORT ... > > And, I am also concerned about what is going to happen in the Fall when a > > lot of the individuals involved with this project are back in > > classes ... if > > setting up the use of these services does not involve turnkey > > solutions with > > automated setups at a known, trusted host who is contractually > > committed to > > maintaining the integrity of the overall network, who is going to > > do all the > > tweaking of the system and all the individual nodes? > > Jeff and I were just talking. He has the real network expertise in our > organization, so I wanted to make sure he was on board before we offered to > do anything. Our company, Polycot Consulting, does selective hosting - it's > not our main gig but Jeff is proficient. As I said, we might be willing to > do manageable stuff pro bono, like host primary sites but not a number of > nodes. Otherwise we can offer expertise, help figure out the tech and the > costs if you want to take it elsewhere. The main thing is that we want to > support the effort and we have a clue... which is to say we might be able to > contribute to sustainability in the fall and thereafter. > > ~ Jon > > Jon Lebkowsky > CEO/Catalyst, Polycot > http://www.polycot.com > > >
[hackers] Legal Issues -- VERY Important
I talked to our lawyer again and he urged me STRONGLY to please ask you guys not to deal with legal issues. This is different than Meetup hosts, where people are looking for legal advice as independent groups, and not coordinated with the campaign. Since we're working together, and building a product the campaign will offer as a service, it is critical that all legal decisions be made by Eric. I am working with him on putting together legal guidelines that we will offer along with the Dean Community Sites Kit. http://www.hack4dean.org/phpwiki/index.php?Legalities This page makes me extremely nervous. We'll do the legal work -- its our job, and our boss, on the line, and even talking about the FEC in ways that are inaccurate can get me, and through me Dean, in a lot of hot water. Thanks! Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Jeff Kramer Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2003 8:25 AM To: Aldon Hynes; Jon Lebkowsky; Howard Vicini; CMR; Zephyr Teachout; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Zack Rosen Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [hackers] MINORITY REPORT ... At 4:30 AM -0400 7/23/03, Aldon Hynes wrote: >Jon, > >I do worry a little bit about the 'Pro Bono' contributions of a >corporation. This gets into 'in-kind' donations which can be a sticky >issue. I've been dealing with another company that sounds like it is in a >similar situation as yours. They have suggested hosting the site in return >for having a text ad at the bottom to the effect: Legally an LLC is a partnership (in this case a 3 person one) in the eyes of the government and the IRS, I don't think it has the 'individual in the eyes of the law' aspects of a real Incorprated entity, but I have no clue how that effects the political campaign aspects. -- Jeff Kramer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.keika.co.uk/
[hackers] where are my manners?
What I should have said in my post was: You guys are INCREDIBLE. Nothing close to this has ever happened, as far as I know -- not only in terms of the architecture being built but the who and how of building it. I am completely in awe of what you are doing and how you are working together, and THANK YOU. Z
RE: [hackers] node hosting
There are two primary different hosting questions, as I see it: (1) Where will we send people to host their own Dean Community Sites. Our current position on this is that we do not send them anywhere. We leave it up to the volunteer administrators to recommend hosting services, with some suggested guidelines. The more involved we get in the hosting decisions of the sites, the fuzzier the line between the campaign and the unofficial community sites. Furthermore, we don't want vendors fighting and calling the campaign all the time to be on the "recommended" list. (2) Where we host the Visible Volunteer Network. This is a DFA decision -- would love suggestions but likely use Rackspace or something, once our requirements are clear. I've asked that we have server space by this weekend, but we should at least have funding for it by that point. Does that make sense? Zephyr How does everyone feel about an IRC meeting specific to the hosting issues so that everyone can catch up on what everyone else is doing ... Until I see a very specific spec sheet, I am very nervous about the outcome of anyone's efforts, including my own ... This is such an important project, for this Presidential election and future elections, in general, that I don't think anything should be done off the cuff ... *Financing issues are one thing, of course ... we will eventually get clear guidelines from the campaign staff ... and 'banking' arrangements for ongoing expenses that are within the FEC rules ... these are standard concerns that will get worked out ... *Technical specs seem to pretty well defined now, but I have not seen an approved, written spec sheet ... anyone have something? *I believe that we can gain valuable insight on traffic and volume issues by sampling current Dean websites that have been online for a while in order to develop realistic guidelines that will be imprecise, but better than a guess, at least ... But there are also other requirements that we must define before selecting any host: -is the host's building secure from intrusion ... what level of security do they maintain? -does it have fire suppression... what type of structure? -does the host have emergency, internal power generation capabilities? -what records does the host make available concerning its uptime? -how do current customers rate the host? -what is the ownership's Party affiliation? And, a spec sheet covering all of these requirements should be developed before any 'shopping' for a host is done, even an internal one ... it is a standard corporate procedure that should be followed, I believe, for the obvious reasons ... and everything should be done in written, contract form ... thoughts? Howard Vicini computer graphics, prepress, animation & web design San Francisco Dean url www.bayarea4dean.com personal url www.vicini.net email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo IM howardvicini AIM IM howardvicini voice 415-522-1555 - Original Message - From: "Jon Lebkowsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Howard Vicini" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 1:08 PM Subject: RE: [hackers] node hosting > > How about CMR, Aldon and I work on finding out what options we have for > > hosting ... not to commit to anything, but to have our options fully known > > when the time comes ... > > We were already working on that, but feel free to jump in. Our original > thought was to host pro bono but when Jeff saw the requirements, he was a > little concerned about the potential bandwidth and other technical issues. > We were researching to see what other options exist to fit the requirements. > Jeff is at [EMAIL PROTECTED] if you want to contact him directly (but I think > he's on the list, as [EMAIL PROTECTED]). > > ~ jon > > >
RE: [hackers] node hosting
I will forward this on to our lawyer, but in general, I agree with Britt. I think the nominal fee will NOT be a barrier to entry, and that we get in very gray water here w/nonprofits, etc -- which we want to avoid. And as helpful as Berkman et al is, Eric (our lawyer) has to be the final say on this -- and has a great grasp of FEC issues. Thanks for the idea, but we need to stay out of the weeds. Zephyr Teachout Internet Organizing & Outreach Dean for America [EMAIL PROTECTED] Meetup at http://www.deanforamerica.com/meetup Get local at http://action.deanforamerica.com Contribute at http://www.deanforamerica.com/contribute -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Britt Blaser Sent: Tuesday, July 22, 2003 3:56 PM To: zachary rosen; Josh Koenig Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [hackers] node hosting On Tuesday, July 22, 2003, at 12:05 PM, zachary rosen wrote: > The only concern is: if there is to strong a connection / correlation > between the Dean campaign and this non profit service then the > campaign is liable. __ I suggest a memo of understanding with the Dean campaign that the campaign is our first beta tester. We should quickly add other campaigns as testers, especially congressional candidates. (We should especially support Ms. Gerry Mander, who's anxious to help Texas Democratic Congresspeople;-) __ On Tuesday, July 22, 2003, at 12:54 PM, Joshua Koenig wrote: > Offering non-partisan "Digital Town Hall" hosting is the only way to > go about it. If we offer the same class/quality of hosting service to > all candidates of all parties, then it's all good. Having started *many* businesses, I'd be careful of setting up as a for-profit (employees) ASP. Let's just develop the code and then let anyone, some of us and others operate a Blogspot or Red Hat kind of service. We need to focus tightly on code and not get distracted by hosting, which is a separate issue. The main reason to offer the code openly is to not distract ourselves with FEC concerns. __ > We need a lawyer to look at this, but I see no substantial difference > between what we would offer here and what blogspot does. We would also > need any domain suffixes (e.g. *.fordean.net or *.fordean.com) to be > handled through a third party. I'm sure Professor Lessig, the Berkman people or EFF can connect us with the right legal resources. __ On Tuesday, July 22, 2003, at 03:36 PM, zachary rosen wrote: > The node concept is just fine. The only thing that is stalled is the > so called "turnkey node hosting service" for the Dean campaign which > looks to > be nixxed due to FEC rules. If we offer the service to all comers at a nominal expense to donors who believe strongly in this project, we shouldn't have to worry about FEC rules. And it probably saves more trouble than the hassle of trying to turn hosting into a business. Please tell me if I'm missing something here. thanks.
