Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Tyler Radford]

Thanks Mike!

*Tyler Radford*
Executive Director
tyler.radf...@hotosm.org
@TylerSRadford

*Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team*
*Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic Development*
web  | twitter  | facebook
 | donate 


On Wed, Oct 19, 2016 at 4:41 PM, Mike Thompson  wrote:

> Tyler,
>
> I just log my ideas/suggestions on github.
>
> Mike
>
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 2:58 PM, Tyler Radford 
> wrote:
>
>> Phil, Robert, John, Mike, others have come up with some really great
>> ideas pertaining to Tasking Manager improvements.
>>
>> Please log them or add to already existing requests here so we don't lose
>> them! https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues
>>
>> One of the big visions for the future Tasking Manager is to better guides
>> mappers having the right skills to the right job.
>>
>> Thanks for all the thoughtful and creative ideas.
>>
>> *Tyler Radford*
>> Executive Director
>> tyler.radf...@hotosm.org
>> @TylerSRadford
>>
>> *Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team*
>> *Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic Development*
>> web  | twitter  |
>> facebook  | donate
>> 
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Autre Planete 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks , Listened to you,Mike Thompson!
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 9:13 PM, Mike Thompson 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Two situations that a new mapper may face:
 1) Task area with nothing, or very little, mapped.
 This *should* be pretty easy. For example, in the case of buildings:
 draw building, square it, tag it as a building, don't draw two buildings
 over lapping each other.  However, despite verbal instruction,
 demonstrations, and written instructions, many get it wrong. My conclusion
 is human learning is more complex than many of us assume (hence the need
 for professional educators in our society). We may need to adjust our
 training (both online and in person) to be more effective. Just providing
 the information is not enough.

 2) Task area has already been partially mapped, either outside of the
 tasking manager, as part of a previous project, or as part of the current
 project where another mapper didn't finish.
 Essentially we are asking the mapper in question to be a validator,
 because we expect that when he or she marks the task as done, they are
 saying that all of the mapping is done according to the instructions, not
 just the mapping he or she did. This can be very difficult for a new
 mapper, especially without the tools in JOSM. For example, if the
 instructions call for buildings to be square, they have to pan the entire
 task looking for buildings where is in JOSM, I put all buildings into the
 to do list and step through them (I could also search for ways tagged as
 buildings with less than a certain number of nodes and square them all at
 once).

 Ideas:
 * Have the tasking manager require a mapper to open (no way of knowing
 if they actually read them)  their messages before they can do checkout
 another tasks.
 * Have tasking manager forward messages to mapper's email account.
 * Require that a mapper at least visits the "instructions" tab before
 checking out a task.
 * Enhance project instructions to cover "edge cases". For example,
 should buildings under construction be mapped? Should existing features be
 spatially adjusted to the preferred imagery source, or should the imagery
 be adjusted to them?
 * Enhance project instructions to have links to examples (some of the
 Africa projects already do this).  "Not sure what a building under
 construction looks like? Click here for some examples." "Not sure how to
 adjust imagery offset in iD? Click here for instructions."
 * Mapathons should not be held without experienced mappers present who
 are willing to spend the entire event going from person to person to check
 on their work and answer any questions. We need many different people to
 make this work, and if someone just wants to be an organizer that is great,
 but they should ensure experienced mappers are in attendance.
 * Some sort of online way to quickly give feedback as soon as a save is
 made such that it is not necessary to wait until a task is marked as done.

 Mike

>>>
>>>
>>> ___
>>> HOT mailing list
>>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>>
>>>
>>
>
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Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Tyler Radford]

Phil, Robert, John, Mike, others have come up with some really great ideas
pertaining to Tasking Manager improvements.

Please log them or add to already existing requests here so we don't lose
them! https://github.com/hotosm/osm-tasking-manager2/issues

One of the big visions for the future Tasking Manager is to better guides
mappers having the right skills to the right job.

Thanks for all the thoughtful and creative ideas.

*Tyler Radford*
Executive Director
tyler.radf...@hotosm.org
@TylerSRadford

*Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team*
*Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic Development*
web  | twitter  | facebook
 | donate 


On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Autre Planete 
wrote:

> Thanks , Listened to you,Mike Thompson!
>
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 9:13 PM, Mike Thompson 
> wrote:
>
>> Two situations that a new mapper may face:
>> 1) Task area with nothing, or very little, mapped.
>> This *should* be pretty easy. For example, in the case of buildings: draw
>> building, square it, tag it as a building, don't draw two buildings over
>> lapping each other.  However, despite verbal instruction, demonstrations,
>> and written instructions, many get it wrong. My conclusion is human
>> learning is more complex than many of us assume (hence the need for
>> professional educators in our society). We may need to adjust our training
>> (both online and in person) to be more effective. Just providing the
>> information is not enough.
>>
>> 2) Task area has already been partially mapped, either outside of the
>> tasking manager, as part of a previous project, or as part of the current
>> project where another mapper didn't finish.
>> Essentially we are asking the mapper in question to be a validator,
>> because we expect that when he or she marks the task as done, they are
>> saying that all of the mapping is done according to the instructions, not
>> just the mapping he or she did. This can be very difficult for a new
>> mapper, especially without the tools in JOSM. For example, if the
>> instructions call for buildings to be square, they have to pan the entire
>> task looking for buildings where is in JOSM, I put all buildings into the
>> to do list and step through them (I could also search for ways tagged as
>> buildings with less than a certain number of nodes and square them all at
>> once).
>>
>> Ideas:
>> * Have the tasking manager require a mapper to open (no way of knowing if
>> they actually read them)  their messages before they can do checkout
>> another tasks.
>> * Have tasking manager forward messages to mapper's email account.
>> * Require that a mapper at least visits the "instructions" tab before
>> checking out a task.
>> * Enhance project instructions to cover "edge cases". For example, should
>> buildings under construction be mapped? Should existing features be
>> spatially adjusted to the preferred imagery source, or should the imagery
>> be adjusted to them?
>> * Enhance project instructions to have links to examples (some of the
>> Africa projects already do this).  "Not sure what a building under
>> construction looks like? Click here for some examples." "Not sure how to
>> adjust imagery offset in iD? Click here for instructions."
>> * Mapathons should not be held without experienced mappers present who
>> are willing to spend the entire event going from person to person to check
>> on their work and answer any questions. We need many different people to
>> make this work, and if someone just wants to be an organizer that is great,
>> but they should ensure experienced mappers are in attendance.
>> * Some sort of online way to quickly give feedback as soon as a save is
>> made such that it is not necessary to wait until a task is marked as done.
>>
>> Mike
>>
>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
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Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Autre Planete]

Thanks , Listened to you,Mike Thompson!

On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 9:13 PM, Mike Thompson  wrote:

> Two situations that a new mapper may face:
> 1) Task area with nothing, or very little, mapped.
> This *should* be pretty easy. For example, in the case of buildings: draw
> building, square it, tag it as a building, don't draw two buildings over
> lapping each other.  However, despite verbal instruction, demonstrations,
> and written instructions, many get it wrong. My conclusion is human
> learning is more complex than many of us assume (hence the need for
> professional educators in our society). We may need to adjust our training
> (both online and in person) to be more effective. Just providing the
> information is not enough.
>
> 2) Task area has already been partially mapped, either outside of the
> tasking manager, as part of a previous project, or as part of the current
> project where another mapper didn't finish.
> Essentially we are asking the mapper in question to be a validator,
> because we expect that when he or she marks the task as done, they are
> saying that all of the mapping is done according to the instructions, not
> just the mapping he or she did. This can be very difficult for a new
> mapper, especially without the tools in JOSM. For example, if the
> instructions call for buildings to be square, they have to pan the entire
> task looking for buildings where is in JOSM, I put all buildings into the
> to do list and step through them (I could also search for ways tagged as
> buildings with less than a certain number of nodes and square them all at
> once).
>
> Ideas:
> * Have the tasking manager require a mapper to open (no way of knowing if
> they actually read them)  their messages before they can do checkout
> another tasks.
> * Have tasking manager forward messages to mapper's email account.
> * Require that a mapper at least visits the "instructions" tab before
> checking out a task.
> * Enhance project instructions to cover "edge cases". For example, should
> buildings under construction be mapped? Should existing features be
> spatially adjusted to the preferred imagery source, or should the imagery
> be adjusted to them?
> * Enhance project instructions to have links to examples (some of the
> Africa projects already do this).  "Not sure what a building under
> construction looks like? Click here for some examples." "Not sure how to
> adjust imagery offset in iD? Click here for instructions."
> * Mapathons should not be held without experienced mappers present who are
> willing to spend the entire event going from person to person to check on
> their work and answer any questions. We need many different people to make
> this work, and if someone just wants to be an organizer that is great, but
> they should ensure experienced mappers are in attendance.
> * Some sort of online way to quickly give feedback as soon as a save is
> made such that it is not necessary to wait until a task is marked as done.
>
> Mike
>
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Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[john whelan]

Just a couple of comments about data quality, a week ago in Ethiopia there
were 4,500 untagged ways or untagged with a comment, the most common is
area=yes.  These do not show up in the map so a user in the field wouldn't
even know of their existence.

To me this a data quality issue.  Things have been mapped but are not
appearing in the map.

Secondly talking to an American data analyst his issue was sometimes the
maps could be trusted and sometimes they weren't so good.  In Nepal the
amount of effort needed to clean up the map was considerable.  I seem to
recall Kathmandu Living Labs has been involved in a fair amount of work and
I think it was because they saw the value in cleaner data.

I don't think Ethiopia is exceptional.

Cheerio John

On 13 October 2016 at 11:43, Mike Thompson  wrote:

> Two situations that a new mapper may face:
> 1) Task area with nothing, or very little, mapped.
> This *should* be pretty easy. For example, in the case of buildings: draw
> building, square it, tag it as a building, don't draw two buildings over
> lapping each other.  However, despite verbal instruction, demonstrations,
> and written instructions, many get it wrong. My conclusion is human
> learning is more complex than many of us assume (hence the need for
> professional educators in our society). We may need to adjust our training
> (both online and in person) to be more effective. Just providing the
> information is not enough.
>
> 2) Task area has already been partially mapped, either outside of the
> tasking manager, as part of a previous project, or as part of the current
> project where another mapper didn't finish.
> Essentially we are asking the mapper in question to be a validator,
> because we expect that when he or she marks the task as done, they are
> saying that all of the mapping is done according to the instructions, not
> just the mapping he or she did. This can be very difficult for a new
> mapper, especially without the tools in JOSM. For example, if the
> instructions call for buildings to be square, they have to pan the entire
> task looking for buildings where is in JOSM, I put all buildings into the
> to do list and step through them (I could also search for ways tagged as
> buildings with less than a certain number of nodes and square them all at
> once).
>
> Ideas:
> * Have the tasking manager require a mapper to open (no way of knowing if
> they actually read them)  their messages before they can do checkout
> another tasks.
> * Have tasking manager forward messages to mapper's email account.
> * Require that a mapper at least visits the "instructions" tab before
> checking out a task.
> * Enhance project instructions to cover "edge cases". For example, should
> buildings under construction be mapped? Should existing features be
> spatially adjusted to the preferred imagery source, or should the imagery
> be adjusted to them?
> * Enhance project instructions to have links to examples (some of the
> Africa projects already do this).  "Not sure what a building under
> construction looks like? Click here for some examples." "Not sure how to
> adjust imagery offset in iD? Click here for instructions."
> * Mapathons should not be held without experienced mappers present who are
> willing to spend the entire event going from person to person to check on
> their work and answer any questions. We need many different people to make
> this work, and if someone just wants to be an organizer that is great, but
> they should ensure experienced mappers are in attendance.
> * Some sort of online way to quickly give feedback as soon as a save is
> made such that it is not necessary to wait until a task is marked as done.
>
> Mike
>
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Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Mike Thompson]

Two situations that a new mapper may face:
1) Task area with nothing, or very little, mapped.
This *should* be pretty easy. For example, in the case of buildings: draw
building, square it, tag it as a building, don't draw two buildings over
lapping each other.  However, despite verbal instruction, demonstrations,
and written instructions, many get it wrong. My conclusion is human
learning is more complex than many of us assume (hence the need for
professional educators in our society). We may need to adjust our training
(both online and in person) to be more effective. Just providing the
information is not enough.

2) Task area has already been partially mapped, either outside of the
tasking manager, as part of a previous project, or as part of the current
project where another mapper didn't finish.
Essentially we are asking the mapper in question to be a validator, because
we expect that when he or she marks the task as done, they are saying that
all of the mapping is done according to the instructions, not just the
mapping he or she did. This can be very difficult for a new mapper,
especially without the tools in JOSM. For example, if the instructions call
for buildings to be square, they have to pan the entire task looking for
buildings where is in JOSM, I put all buildings into the to do list and
step through them (I could also search for ways tagged as buildings with
less than a certain number of nodes and square them all at once).

Ideas:
* Have the tasking manager require a mapper to open (no way of knowing if
they actually read them)  their messages before they can do checkout
another tasks.
* Have tasking manager forward messages to mapper's email account.
* Require that a mapper at least visits the "instructions" tab before
checking out a task.
* Enhance project instructions to cover "edge cases". For example, should
buildings under construction be mapped? Should existing features be
spatially adjusted to the preferred imagery source, or should the imagery
be adjusted to them?
* Enhance project instructions to have links to examples (some of the
Africa projects already do this).  "Not sure what a building under
construction looks like? Click here for some examples." "Not sure how to
adjust imagery offset in iD? Click here for instructions."
* Mapathons should not be held without experienced mappers present who are
willing to spend the entire event going from person to person to check on
their work and answer any questions. We need many different people to make
this work, and if someone just wants to be an organizer that is great, but
they should ensure experienced mappers are in attendance.
* Some sort of online way to quickly give feedback as soon as a save is
made such that it is not necessary to wait until a task is marked as done.

Mike
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Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Autre Planete]

Greets!

Sorry to barge in. ...but what Mr.Phil says  is really true  in the case
of  new mappers.

Cheers:)
Autre

On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 7:08 PM, john whelan  wrote:

> ​I think we have to accept we need new mappers and we need them to be
> motivated so mapping projects that do not seem important ​may not be so
> motivating.  The Statistics Canada project is interesting as in the longer
> term I think we should see a pool of experienced mappers coming out of that
> but it is a longer term project and its interesting to see a different
> approach with more emphasis on data quality.  We rarely discuss the needs
> of our clients ie those who use the maps in the discussion group.
>
> Mapping one on one with new mappers you can train them fairly quickly but
> it still takes twenty minutes or so.  With a group I think you have to
> accept you have them there for two/three hours, 50% will never map again,
> and they want to start mapping now.  What's the guy at the front talking
> about OpenStreetMap and boring stuff for?  Asking them to train for two
> hours first and get a badge is a sort of non-starter.  Ask me to go through
> training for validation and I'm more likely to go off and play in Blender.
> They are volunteers.  Making the training available to them is a different
> issue to making it mandatory.
>
> There is an issue of trust, locally the American Red Cross has hit the
> headlines with their six permanent houses built in Haiti.  Divide into the
> money raised and its not pretty.  There has been mention of the
> Humanitarian Industry.  There is a suggestion that the NGOs look upon
> mapathons as a way of engaging the public hoping to gain donations from
> them.
>
> I've long thought that many projects could have better documentation.  Why
> is this project important? who will use the data that we know about?  This
> is being addressed through the training for project managers.
>
> For a crisis certain projects will need a higher level of expertise.  I've
> worked on critical high priority projects where tiles have been marked done
> with only 25% of the mapping done.  Other tiles had been "validated" but
> still left much to be desired, and my standard of validation isn't that
> high.
>
> Validating and giving feedback is useful.  Quite a few of the new mappers
> I've given feedback to are now solid mappers but quick feedback is critical
> and when you get twenty or more mappers mapping in a mapathon you can't
> give each the attention you'd like.
>
> By the way it doesn't seem to be just HOT mappers who leave much to be
> desired.  I've been looking at parts of Africa and there are mappers there
> who have done a fair amount of mapping more than 500 buildings for example
> but still don't tag their ways and their userid does not show up in HOT.
>
> I'll leave you the thoughts but no real solutions.
>
> Cheerio John
>
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>
>
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Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[john whelan]

​I think we have to accept we need new mappers and we need them to be
motivated so mapping projects that do not seem important ​may not be so
motivating.  The Statistics Canada project is interesting as in the longer
term I think we should see a pool of experienced mappers coming out of that
but it is a longer term project and its interesting to see a different
approach with more emphasis on data quality.  We rarely discuss the needs
of our clients ie those who use the maps in the discussion group.

Mapping one on one with new mappers you can train them fairly quickly but
it still takes twenty minutes or so.  With a group I think you have to
accept you have them there for two/three hours, 50% will never map again,
and they want to start mapping now.  What's the guy at the front talking
about OpenStreetMap and boring stuff for?  Asking them to train for two
hours first and get a badge is a sort of non-starter.  Ask me to go through
training for validation and I'm more likely to go off and play in Blender.
They are volunteers.  Making the training available to them is a different
issue to making it mandatory.

There is an issue of trust, locally the American Red Cross has hit the
headlines with their six permanent houses built in Haiti.  Divide into the
money raised and its not pretty.  There has been mention of the
Humanitarian Industry.  There is a suggestion that the NGOs look upon
mapathons as a way of engaging the public hoping to gain donations from
them.

I've long thought that many projects could have better documentation.  Why
is this project important? who will use the data that we know about?  This
is being addressed through the training for project managers.

For a crisis certain projects will need a higher level of expertise.  I've
worked on critical high priority projects where tiles have been marked done
with only 25% of the mapping done.  Other tiles had been "validated" but
still left much to be desired, and my standard of validation isn't that
high.

Validating and giving feedback is useful.  Quite a few of the new mappers
I've given feedback to are now solid mappers but quick feedback is critical
and when you get twenty or more mappers mapping in a mapathon you can't
give each the attention you'd like.

By the way it doesn't seem to be just HOT mappers who leave much to be
desired.  I've been looking at parts of Africa and there are mappers there
who have done a fair amount of mapping more than 500 buildings for example
but still don't tag their ways and their userid does not show up in HOT.

I'll leave you the thoughts but no real solutions.

Cheerio John
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Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Phil (The Geek) Wyatt]

"Having said that, I'd like to punt this back to Phil and Sev as I speak to 
people in the field, who use the data, on a regular basis. Data quality, so 
far, has almost never come up as an issue. Do you guys have different 
experience or feedback from field teams? It would be useful to know specifics 
if you have.

Cheers, Pete

Hi Pete,

Despite being a mapper for Red Cross, all my work is in Australia where I 
generally have access to relatively high quality Government spatial data. My 
interest in OSM/HOT is in support of international projects and where possible 
I would love to see the best quality digitising regardless of who is doing the 
work.

I know I made mistakes as a newbie as I just dived in and had a go (typical 
Aussie approach!) and I suspect many first time mappers do just that, despite 
there now being good tutorials around on many aspects of ID/JOSM Editor. Slowly 
I found more details and have since gone back to some areas I mapped originally 
to square up buildings and do other tidying. I also started mapping in my local 
area until I found the HOT site so I had some experience when diving into the 
humanitarian work.

I suspect you are right that any mapping is better than none for many 
humanitarian projects and initial quality issues are probably overlooked but we 
should endeavour to always improve. Leaving the least number of 'errors' for 
the locals to clean up is a worthy goal.

A more refined web interface where actual projects are further down the page 
with the initial splash screen asking folks to complete some minimal training 
does not seem that onerous to me. Even a tabbed interface, to split off harder 
tasks with specific notes in the header regarding the type of work that will be 
involved, would make it easier to explain levels of tasks and preferred 
competencies.

/ New mappers \ / Harder Tasks \ /Complex Tasks \ / Validation \

New mappers.

Tasks in this group are ideal for new mappers using the ID interface.  Check 
out the videos below to understand how best to undertake the mapping and how 
the data is used by requesting organisations. After the videos, select a task 
from the projects below. There will be more specific instructions under each 
task.

Adding Roads Video

 

Mapping Residential Boundaries Video

 

Task 1

Task2

Task 3

--

I hope these thoughts are useful and I am happy to help out testing any new 
interface. I am not a coder but work with lots of volunteers so have a fair 
idea how they think and work.

 

Cheers - Phil

 

Volunteer Mapper (GISMO) -   Red 
Cross,   Wildcare Volunteer

 

 

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Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Joseph Reeves]

t never come up as an issue. Do you guys have different
>> experience or feedback from field teams? It would be useful to know
>> specifics if you have.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Pete
>>
>> On 13 Oct 2016 07:31, "Robert Banick" <rban...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> HOT is clearly one of, if not the, most successful crowdsourcing projects
>> for humanitarian response in the world. Success means not just contributors
>> but also use of the data by actual humanitarians. It’s unsurprising we’re
>> encountering some limits to the approach and need to evolve it.
>>
>> I like Phil and John’s automated approach to these things. I think the
>> Tasking Manager has proven that the best way to manage these interactions
>> is through an automated platform. My only concern is making what’s
>> currently straightforward overly complex and intimidating for new users.
>> But that’s a call for good design and introductory materials, not dumbing
>> down our approach.
>>
>> However, it’s the middle of a disaster and clearly not the time for
>> wholesale changes. I suggest we flag these thoughts for the forthcoming
>> Tasking Manager redesign and embrace makeshift systems in the meantime.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Robert
>>
>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 8:31 AM Phil (The Geek) Wyatt <
>> p...@wyatt-family.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> I am a retired long time map user, occasional mapper (in QGIS, Mapinfo)
>> and supporter of the OSM mapping project. It seems to me that the issue of
>> poor mapping, especially for HOT projects, is coming up on such a regular
>> basis that it's time to consider some mandatory training for users before
>> they get to map under the HOT task manager. I don't think this would be too
>> difficult for most volunteers and it could ensure that at least a certain
>> level of competency is attained before being exposed to complex tasks. If
>> people know that in the first place then they can make a choice as to
>> whether they commence or continue to map.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have no idea how this could be accomplished as I know little of the
>> linkages between OSM and the HOT Task Manager, but restricting HOT tasks to
>> those with some defined training could improve the results.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let's say as a minimum you train folks on roads and residential area
>> polygons - that might be level 1 (ID Editor)
>>
>> Level 2 could be after training for buildings, tracks, paths (ID or JOSM)
>>
>> Level 3 for validation (JOSM)
>>
>>
>>
>> In this way HOT tasks simply get assigned at each level and you know you
>> have the right people doing the tasks at hand. The task manager could also
>> only highlight jobs at their assigned level until they do the next level
>> training.
>>
>>
>>
>> You might even consider, as part of validation, dropping people from a
>> higher level to a lower level if they continually fail to produce results
>> at the desired consistency.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just my thoughts as a casual mapper.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers - Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> Thin Green Line Supporter <http://www.thingreenline.org.au/>, Volunteer
>> Mapper (GISMO) - Red Cross <http://www.redcross.org.au/volunteering.aspx>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Severin Menard [mailto:severin.men...@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:34 AM
>> *To:* hot@openstreetmap.org
>> *Subject:* [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve
>>
>>
>>
>> The edits on hotosm.org job #2228 <http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2228>
>> have started and now happens what I feared. There is no mention of what are
>> the necessary skills and newbies are coming with a lot of enthusiasm but
>> with almost no OSM experience. A quick analysis of the first 29
>> contributors shows that 20 of them have created their OSM account less than
>> one month ago. Some did it yesterday or today. Wow.
>>
>> The result of that : obviously, crappy edits are coming, spoiling what we
>> have been doing over the last few days : now we have building as nodes
>> where shapes are totally visible, un-squared bad shaped buildings and the
>> main landuse area is self-cutting in various places (see there
>> <https://leslibresgeographes.org/jirafeau/f.php?h=26gWjHki=1>).
>>
>> Nothing new under the sun : it was already the case for Haiti EarthQuake
>> 2010. Quit

Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Robert Banick]

platform. My only concern is making what’s
> currently straightforward overly complex and intimidating for new users.
> But that’s a call for good design and introductory materials, not dumbing
> down our approach.
>
> However, it’s the middle of a disaster and clearly not the time for
> wholesale changes. I suggest we flag these thoughts for the forthcoming
> Tasking Manager redesign and embrace makeshift systems in the meantime.
>
> Cheers,
> Robert
>
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 8:31 AM Phil (The Geek) Wyatt <
> p...@wyatt-family.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> I am a retired long time map user, occasional mapper (in QGIS, Mapinfo)
> and supporter of the OSM mapping project. It seems to me that the issue of
> poor mapping, especially for HOT projects, is coming up on such a regular
> basis that it's time to consider some mandatory training for users before
> they get to map under the HOT task manager. I don't think this would be too
> difficult for most volunteers and it could ensure that at least a certain
> level of competency is attained before being exposed to complex tasks. If
> people know that in the first place then they can make a choice as to
> whether they commence or continue to map.
>
>
>
> I have no idea how this could be accomplished as I know little of the
> linkages between OSM and the HOT Task Manager, but restricting HOT tasks to
> those with some defined training could improve the results.
>
>
>
> Let's say as a minimum you train folks on roads and residential area
> polygons - that might be level 1 (ID Editor)
>
> Level 2 could be after training for buildings, tracks, paths (ID or JOSM)
>
> Level 3 for validation (JOSM)
>
>
>
> In this way HOT tasks simply get assigned at each level and you know you
> have the right people doing the tasks at hand. The task manager could also
> only highlight jobs at their assigned level until they do the next level
> training.
>
>
>
> You might even consider, as part of validation, dropping people from a
> higher level to a lower level if they continually fail to produce results
> at the desired consistency.
>
>
>
> Just my thoughts as a casual mapper.
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers - Phil
>
>
>
> Thin Green Line Supporter <http://www.thingreenline.org.au/>, Volunteer
> Mapper (GISMO) - Red Cross <http://www.redcross.org.au/volunteering.aspx>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Severin Menard [mailto:severin.men...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:34 AM
> *To:* hot@openstreetmap.org
> *Subject:* [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve
>
>
>
> The edits on hotosm.org job #2228 <http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2228>
> have started and now happens what I feared. There is no mention of what are
> the necessary skills and newbies are coming with a lot of enthusiasm but
> with almost no OSM experience. A quick analysis of the first 29
> contributors shows that 20 of them have created their OSM account less than
> one month ago. Some did it yesterday or today. Wow.
>
> The result of that : obviously, crappy edits are coming, spoiling what we
> have been doing over the last few days : now we have building as nodes
> where shapes are totally visible, un-squared bad shaped buildings and the
> main landuse area is self-cutting in various places (see there
> <https://leslibresgeographes.org/jirafeau/f.php?h=26gWjHki=1>).
>
> Nothing new under the sun : it was already the case for Haiti EarthQuake
> 2010. Quite a pity that six years after, despite the OSM tools have
> improved a lot, it remains the same. It is though quite simple to fix the
> most part of it:
> do-not-invite-newcomers-to-map-over-complex-crisis-contexts.
>
> I guess some will argue that the OSM newcomers are people of good will and
> that they just want to help and that they my feel offended/discouraged. Of
> course their intentions are high and yes they may feel a bit hurt. But this
> is really a classic in humanitarian response: people with the best
> intentions in the world may not fit for it, just because they are not
> experienced yet.
>
>
>
> Mapping in OSM in crisis response is not an exciting one-shot hobby : it
> does have its learning curve and it is key to learn how to map correctly
> before being dropped over complex humanitarian contexts. This is why I
> mentioned three sets of necessary skills for the jobs I created these last
> days on http://taches.francophonelibre.org. And the beginner mappers who
> joined the job that fitted for beginners are people that already have a few
> months of OSM experience, not newcomers. Newcomers should be driven over
> non urgent fields.
>
> If someone is not intere

Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Jo]

t;> and supporter of the OSM mapping project. It seems to me that the issue of
>>>> poor mapping, especially for HOT projects, is coming up on such a regular
>>>> basis that it's time to consider some mandatory training for users before
>>>> they get to map under the HOT task manager. I don't think this would be too
>>>> difficult for most volunteers and it could ensure that at least a certain
>>>> level of competency is attained before being exposed to complex tasks. If
>>>> people know that in the first place then they can make a choice as to
>>>> whether they commence or continue to map.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have no idea how this could be accomplished as I know little of the
>>>> linkages between OSM and the HOT Task Manager, but restricting HOT tasks to
>>>> those with some defined training could improve the results.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let's say as a minimum you train folks on roads and residential area
>>>> polygons - that might be level 1 (ID Editor)
>>>>
>>>> Level 2 could be after training for buildings, tracks, paths (ID or
>>>> JOSM)
>>>>
>>>> Level 3 for validation (JOSM)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In this way HOT tasks simply get assigned at each level and you know
>>>> you have the right people doing the tasks at hand. The task manager could
>>>> also only highlight jobs at their assigned level until they do the next
>>>> level training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You might even consider, as part of validation, dropping people from a
>>>> higher level to a lower level if they continually fail to produce results
>>>> at the desired consistency.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just my thoughts as a casual mapper.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers - Phil
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thin Green Line Supporter <http://www.thingreenline.org.au/>,
>>>> Volunteer Mapper (GISMO) - Red Cross
>>>> <http://www.redcross.org.au/volunteering.aspx>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Severin Menard [mailto:severin.men...@gmail.com]
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:34 AM
>>>> *To:* hot@openstreetmap.org
>>>> *Subject:* [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The edits on hotosm.org job #2228
>>>> <http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2228> have started and now happens
>>>> what I feared. There is no mention of what are the necessary skills and
>>>> newbies are coming with a lot of enthusiasm but with almost no OSM
>>>> experience. A quick analysis of the first 29 contributors shows that 20 of
>>>> them have created their OSM account less than one month ago. Some did it
>>>> yesterday or today. Wow.
>>>>
>>>> The result of that : obviously, crappy edits are coming, spoiling what
>>>> we have been doing over the last few days : now we have building as nodes
>>>> where shapes are totally visible, un-squared bad shaped buildings and the
>>>> main landuse area is self-cutting in various places (see there
>>>> <https://leslibresgeographes.org/jirafeau/f.php?h=26gWjHki=1>).
>>>>
>>>> Nothing new under the sun : it was already the case for Haiti
>>>> EarthQuake 2010. Quite a pity that six years after, despite the OSM tools
>>>> have improved a lot, it remains the same. It is though quite simple to fix
>>>> the most part of it: do-not-invite-newcomers-to-map
>>>> -over-complex-crisis-contexts.
>>>>
>>>> I guess some will argue that the OSM newcomers are people of good will
>>>> and that they just want to help and that they my feel offended/discouraged.
>>>> Of course their intentions are high and yes they may feel a bit hurt. But
>>>> this is really a classic in humanitarian response: people with the best
>>>> intentions in the world may not fit for it, just because they are not
>>>> experienced yet.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mapping in OSM in crisis response is not an exciting one-shot hobby :
>>>> it does have its learning curve and it is key to lear

Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Joseph Reeves]

ed as I know little of the
>>> linkages between OSM and the HOT Task Manager, but restricting HOT tasks to
>>> those with some defined training could improve the results.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Let's say as a minimum you train folks on roads and residential area
>>> polygons - that might be level 1 (ID Editor)
>>>
>>> Level 2 could be after training for buildings, tracks, paths (ID or JOSM)
>>>
>>> Level 3 for validation (JOSM)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In this way HOT tasks simply get assigned at each level and you know you
>>> have the right people doing the tasks at hand. The task manager could also
>>> only highlight jobs at their assigned level until they do the next level
>>> training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You might even consider, as part of validation, dropping people from a
>>> higher level to a lower level if they continually fail to produce results
>>> at the desired consistency.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts as a casual mapper.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers - Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thin Green Line Supporter <http://www.thingreenline.org.au/>, Volunteer
>>> Mapper (GISMO) - Red Cross
>>> <http://www.redcross.org.au/volunteering.aspx>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Severin Menard [mailto:severin.men...@gmail.com]
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:34 AM
>>> *To:* hot@openstreetmap.org
>>> *Subject:* [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The edits on hotosm.org job #2228 <http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2228>
>>> have started and now happens what I feared. There is no mention of what are
>>> the necessary skills and newbies are coming with a lot of enthusiasm but
>>> with almost no OSM experience. A quick analysis of the first 29
>>> contributors shows that 20 of them have created their OSM account less than
>>> one month ago. Some did it yesterday or today. Wow.
>>>
>>> The result of that : obviously, crappy edits are coming, spoiling what
>>> we have been doing over the last few days : now we have building as nodes
>>> where shapes are totally visible, un-squared bad shaped buildings and the
>>> main landuse area is self-cutting in various places (see there
>>> <https://leslibresgeographes.org/jirafeau/f.php?h=26gWjHki=1>).
>>>
>>> Nothing new under the sun : it was already the case for Haiti EarthQuake
>>> 2010. Quite a pity that six years after, despite the OSM tools have
>>> improved a lot, it remains the same. It is though quite simple to fix the
>>> most part of it: do-not-invite-newcomers-to-map
>>> -over-complex-crisis-contexts.
>>>
>>> I guess some will argue that the OSM newcomers are people of good will
>>> and that they just want to help and that they my feel offended/discouraged.
>>> Of course their intentions are high and yes they may feel a bit hurt. But
>>> this is really a classic in humanitarian response: people with the best
>>> intentions in the world may not fit for it, just because they are not
>>> experienced yet.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mapping in OSM in crisis response is not an exciting one-shot hobby : it
>>> does have its learning curve and it is key to learn how to map correctly
>>> before being dropped over complex humanitarian contexts. This is why I
>>> mentioned three sets of necessary skills for the jobs I created these last
>>> days on http://taches.francophonelibre.org. And the beginner mappers
>>> who joined the job that fitted for beginners are people that already have a
>>> few months of OSM experience, not newcomers. Newcomers should be driven
>>> over non urgent fields.
>>>
>>> If someone is not interested to learn first in not a mass media covered
>>> crisis context : this is not a problem, it is actually a good way to see
>>> real motivations. I personally prefer to get one mapper that will become a
>>> huge, excellent contributor, 3-4 more occasional but still producing neat
>>> data, than to lose 10 that would create crappy objects and just leave
>>> forever afterwards anyway.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I guess the resulting need of duplicating the number of necessary edits
>>> (crappy ones then corrections) to get a clean data is a rather a good way
>>> to grow the number of total contributors and the number of total edits
>>> created through the # of the HOT TM instance that seems to be so important
>>> for the board of HOT US Inc (two current directors have contacted me for
>>> this purpose) to make communication and raise funds from the figures. But
>>> what is at stake here is to provide good baseline data for humanitarian
>>> response, not distorted metrics.
>>>
>>> Séverin
>>> ___
>>> HOT mailing list
>>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> HOT mailing list
>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>
>>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Maurizio Napolitano]

Hi
I want share with you my idea. In Madrid, during the IODC conference,
I spoke with Heather.
I think that we can imagine a system that, by starting from the login
to http://tasks.hotosm.org/, calculates a value of "trust" of a
contributor.
As starting job we can use the wonderful work made by Pascal Neis for
"How did you contribute to OpenStreetMap" - http://hdyc.neis-one.org//
If the user has a good experience, the system offers the new task to
solve, otherwise, the system drives the newbie in a "virtual course"
to increase the experience.
The "virtual course" offers, to the newbies, some tasks well known to
use as gym to increase the osm experience.
What do you think?

___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Arun Ganesh]

The future of HOT will be in more local mappers joining tasks, and we will
definitely have to remain open to having greater number of first time OSM
contributors with no prior experience and not fluent in English.

The core of the problem is that contributors have access to powerful
editing tools that they may not know how to correctly use [1]. Lets always
create great documentation, but more importantly we need some mechanism to
ensure that a contributor has read and understood it before contributing.

[1] https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/3142

On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 1:33 AM, Romain Bousson 
wrote:

> Hi all,
> As a pretty newcomer in the osm and hot communities, I personnaly had the
> feeling that the 3 first tabs "Description / instructions / Contribute"
> could be very easily enhanced, by just improving the text and its
> organisation. Today, as I see the new #2228 - Hurricane Matthew: Jereme
> Post Event Imagery , instructions,
> I see that there had been some improvements :)
> I do not complain, and I applaud all the work done by HOT, but I think my
> following comments and ideas could be helpful :
>
>
>- Description tab : often the same text for all the different Haïti
>projects. The general context is well explained, but we may miss some
>important context elements on the practical things (hearthquake in 2010,
>the date of the Bing imagery, the date of the new imagery).
>
>- Instructions tab: it was not explained how to use the new Digital
>Globe imagery in iD. IMHO, only the link is not enough: some people may say
>that it's only a strange line in the instructions and ignore it. The
>hierarchy of the informations provided on this tab is not adequate and
>almost inverted imho. What to do when 2 imageries coexist really missed me.
>The only information was the type of "use imageries in that order : DG,
>Bing, Mapbox", but we can identify simple and common cases that could be
>explained in a Frequently Asquesd Questions or something : what to do when
>a house is already mapped, appears on ancient imagery, and is not here
>anymore with the new imagery etc.
>
>- Contribute tab: maybe a reminder to read the instructions, and/or a
>phrase saying that "If you know what you are doing, you can validate, if
>not, you may let more experienced user take this role". The accessibility
>of the tiles given to only  users who have a certain level, as previously
>said, is a good and interesting idea, but is pretty drastic and limits
>freedom, wich is one of the powers of crowdsourcing. Ensuring a good
>instruction, and ensuring  a good peer-review by experienced users and not
>newcomers is what I think the most important.
>
>
> This said, I agree that all the main instructions are already here, on the
> welcome page and the tabs, but we still see people not reading them, so it
> will be a choice to make by HOT community wether we keep users who do not
> read them to be free to map badly or not.
>
>
> Here are an other famous crowdsourced project that has fine tutorials in
> my opinion. I put 2 links for people who do not know them, it could inspire
> us for the HOT improvements (pay attention to the explanations given in the
> tutorials) :
> https://www.zooniverse.org/projects/povich/milky-way-project
> https://www.zooniverse.org/projects/dwright04/supernova-hunters/classify
>
> @Dale : thank you for your answer! No problemo I understand that you were
> busy. I hope I did not spam you too much, sory about that :D
>
> Thanks for everything,
> Romain
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Martin Noblecourt]

Dear all,

This is obviously a key topic that have been around, actually way before 
I was there in the OSM community ;-)


I completely agree with Séverin's warning and the comments from 
subsequent speakers.


To me we already have elements of the solution:

1. As expressed by John & Mikel, improving the TM can certainly help. I
   also suggested recently to split clearly the beginners projects from
   the rest on the homepage (and only make the advanced one visible by
   opening a menu/clicking a button, that would already prevent quite a
   few beginners access them I think). That implies also a clearer
   documentation/research on what is a beginner/medium/advanced tasks,
   based on emergency situation, features, imagery...
2. As a quick fix, some basic phrasing/warnings on the tasks could also
   be improved/increased. E.g. are we sure all new mappers go to the
   "Instructions" tab? Else a sentence in bold in tab one "Make sure to
   read instructions tab" could already help?
3. As expressed by Séverin & Heather, tweaking the TM will not do all
   and training will remain paramount. EOF is a great example of
   focusing on training a few quality mappers (particularly for African
   countries contexts), I think Missing Maps' repeated mapathons
   (specially in London) are also a good example and maybe more adapted
   to Western countries contexts. This is also why we focus mostly on
   non-disaster settings with MM, except with contributors with some
   experience.
4. Regular mapathons/in-depths training are the only way to train
   validators, a resource we are short on. As discussed regularly with
   the Missing Maps members, we also lack incentive/recognition for
   validators, this should be taken into account in the new TM.

I'll conclude by seconding Pete that the overall quality of data of OSM 
is mostly deemed as good by the humanitarians users we are & see - as 
expressed via the feedback from NGOs to contributors we're trying to 
develop.


So thanks to the whole community and let's continue improving.

Best

Martin



On 13/10/2016 08:57, hot-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:

--


--

Message: 4
Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 16:57:40 -0400
From: Dale Kunce <dale.ku...@gmail.com>
To: Romain Bousson <romainbous...@gmail.com>
Cc: "hot@openstreetmap.org" <hot@openstreetmap.org>
Subject: Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve
Message-ID:

Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Romain Bousson]

Hi all,
As a pretty newcomer in the osm and hot communities, I personnaly had the
feeling that the 3 first tabs "Description / instructions / Contribute"
could be very easily enhanced, by just improving the text and its
organisation. Today, as I see the new #2228 - Hurricane Matthew: Jereme
Post Event Imagery , instructions, I
see that there had been some improvements :)
I do not complain, and I applaud all the work done by HOT, but I think my
following comments and ideas could be helpful :


   - Description tab : often the same text for all the different Haïti
   projects. The general context is well explained, but we may miss some
   important context elements on the practical things (hearthquake in 2010,
   the date of the Bing imagery, the date of the new imagery).

   - Instructions tab: it was not explained how to use the new Digital
   Globe imagery in iD. IMHO, only the link is not enough: some people may say
   that it's only a strange line in the instructions and ignore it. The
   hierarchy of the informations provided on this tab is not adequate and
   almost inverted imho. What to do when 2 imageries coexist really missed me.
   The only information was the type of "use imageries in that order : DG,
   Bing, Mapbox", but we can identify simple and common cases that could be
   explained in a Frequently Asquesd Questions or something : what to do when
   a house is already mapped, appears on ancient imagery, and is not here
   anymore with the new imagery etc.

   - Contribute tab: maybe a reminder to read the instructions, and/or a
   phrase saying that "If you know what you are doing, you can validate, if
   not, you may let more experienced user take this role". The accessibility
   of the tiles given to only  users who have a certain level, as previously
   said, is a good and interesting idea, but is pretty drastic and limits
   freedom, wich is one of the powers of crowdsourcing. Ensuring a good
   instruction, and ensuring  a good peer-review by experienced users and not
   newcomers is what I think the most important.


This said, I agree that all the main instructions are already here, on the
welcome page and the tabs, but we still see people not reading them, so it
will be a choice to make by HOT community wether we keep users who do not
read them to be free to map badly or not.


Here are an other famous crowdsourced project that has fine tutorials in my
opinion. I put 2 links for people who do not know them, it could inspire us
for the HOT improvements (pay attention to the explanations given in the
tutorials) :
https://www.zooniverse.org/projects/povich/milky-way-project
https://www.zooniverse.org/projects/dwright04/supernova-hunters/classify

@Dale : thank you for your answer! No problemo I understand that you were
busy. I hope I did not spam you too much, sory about that :D

Thanks for everything,
Romain
___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Laura O'Grady]

Hi all,

Experienced mappers and validators - I feel your pain. Along with others 
including Séverin, Mikel, Romain and Phil (as cited below) I agree with your 
comments and concerns. 

I've been checking in with the TM here and there, trying to help out with the 
recent crisis and noticed a lot of keen but but very green mappers doing their 
best but frankly are just not up to speed. This can cause a lot of (needless) 
work for others. 

As others have noted I think we need to re-evaluate training/participation in 
this context. 

I've made a suggestion to the Training Working Group that we set up a mandatory 
2 (or so) hour training/testing session for new mappers in a crisis scenario. I 
believe that if someone has the time to sign up and participate in a mapathon, 
where some of these problems are generated then I also believe they should be 
able to commit to some advance preparation. Of course we would not turn away 
any volunteers at a mapathon who were unable to compete the 2 hour course.

To that end I suggest setting up a formal course in a MOOC such as Udemy that 
currently offers a platform for elearning including video, text, message forums 
and quizzes, which could accommodate some of the levels Phil (cited below) has 
suggested. 

As Heather pointed out its time to move forward to a formal peer-to-peer 
learning model. These are key components in collaborative learning and this 
system can accommodate this type of learning. 

I've suggested this to the TrWG but not received any real concrete feedback.

I would be happy to take the lead and set up the curriculum using materials we 
already have (videos, documents from LearnOSM and wiki.openstreeetmap.org, for 
example).  

I think in the long run it would be a win-win as we'd have a ready made course 
for crisis scenarios/mapathon preparation and it would always be available as 
course in the MOOC listings to attract new mappers to OSM/HOT at any point in 
time.

I would need assistance from the community to test the course before roll out.

Thoughts?

Thanks for any feedback.

Best wishes,

Laura

-
Laura O'Grady, PhD
la...@lauraogrady.ca

> 
> 
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2016 17:34:15 +
> From: Severin Menard <severin.men...@gmail.com>
> To: "hot@openstreetmap.org" <hot@openstreetmap.org>
> Subject: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve
> Message-ID:
><CA+y5pB+YnMeCuAHowPfgP6zBuT4mO=sd8rta7ducs1qbsme...@mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> The edits on hotosm.org job #2228 <http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2228>
> have started and now happens what I feared. There is no mention of what are
> the necessary skills and newbies are coming with a lot of enthusiasm but
> with almost no OSM experience. A quick analysis of the first 29
> contributors shows that 20 of them have created their OSM account less than
> one month ago. Some did it yesterday or today. Wow.
> 
> The result of that : obviously, crappy edits are coming, spoiling what we
> have been doing over the last few days : now we have building as nodes
> where shapes are totally visible, un-squared bad shaped buildings and the
> main landuse area is self-cutting in various places (see there
> <https://leslibresgeographes.org/jirafeau/f.php?h=26gWjHki=1>).
> 
> Nothing new under the sun : it was already the case for Haiti EarthQuake
> 2010. Quite a pity that six years after, despite the OSM tools have
> improved a lot, it remains the same. It is though quite simple to fix the
> most part of it: do-not-invite-newcomers-to-map-over-complex-crisis-
> contexts.
> 
> I guess some will argue that the OSM newcomers are people of good will and
> that they just want to help and that they my feel offended/discouraged. Of
> course their intentions are high and yes they may feel a bit hurt. But this
> is really a classic in humanitarian response: people with the best
> intentions in the world may not fit for it, just because they are not
> experienced yet.
> 
> Mapping in OSM in crisis response is not an exciting one-shot hobby : it
> does have its learning curve and it is key to learn how to map correctly
> before being dropped over complex humanitarian contexts. This is why I
> mentioned three sets of necessary skills for the jobs I created these last
> days on http://taches.francophonelibre.org. And the beginner mappers who
> joined the job that fitted for beginners are people that already have a few
> months of OSM experience, not newcomers. Newcomers should be driven over
> non urgent fields.
> 
> If someone is not interested to learn first in not a mass media covered
> crisis context : this is not a problem, it is actually a good way to see
> real motivations. I personally prefer to get one mapper that will become a
> hug

Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Heather Leson]

; difficult for most volunteers and it could ensure that at least a certain
>>>> level of competency is attained before being exposed to complex tasks. If
>>>> people know that in the first place then they can make a choice as to
>>>> whether they commence or continue to map.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I have no idea how this could be accomplished as I know little of the
>>>> linkages between OSM and the HOT Task Manager, but restricting HOT tasks to
>>>> those with some defined training could improve the results.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let's say as a minimum you train folks on roads and residential area
>>>> polygons - that might be level 1 (ID Editor)
>>>>
>>>> Level 2 could be after training for buildings, tracks, paths (ID or
>>>> JOSM)
>>>>
>>>> Level 3 for validation (JOSM)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In this way HOT tasks simply get assigned at each level and you know
>>>> you have the right people doing the tasks at hand. The task manager could
>>>> also only highlight jobs at their assigned level until they do the next
>>>> level training.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You might even consider, as part of validation, dropping people from a
>>>> higher level to a lower level if they continually fail to produce results
>>>> at the desired consistency.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Just my thoughts as a casual mapper.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Cheers - Phil
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thin Green Line Supporter <http://www.thingreenline.org.au/>,
>>>> Volunteer Mapper (GISMO) - Red Cross
>>>> <http://www.redcross.org.au/volunteering.aspx>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Severin Menard [mailto:severin.men...@gmail.com]
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:34 AM
>>>> *To:* hot@openstreetmap.org
>>>> *Subject:* [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The edits on hotosm.org job #2228
>>>> <http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2228> have started and now happens
>>>> what I feared. There is no mention of what are the necessary skills and
>>>> newbies are coming with a lot of enthusiasm but with almost no OSM
>>>> experience. A quick analysis of the first 29 contributors shows that 20 of
>>>> them have created their OSM account less than one month ago. Some did it
>>>> yesterday or today. Wow.
>>>>
>>>> The result of that : obviously, crappy edits are coming, spoiling what
>>>> we have been doing over the last few days : now we have building as nodes
>>>> where shapes are totally visible, un-squared bad shaped buildings and the
>>>> main landuse area is self-cutting in various places (see there
>>>> <https://leslibresgeographes.org/jirafeau/f.php?h=26gWjHki=1>).
>>>>
>>>> Nothing new under the sun : it was already the case for Haiti
>>>> EarthQuake 2010. Quite a pity that six years after, despite the OSM tools
>>>> have improved a lot, it remains the same. It is though quite simple to fix
>>>> the most part of it: do-not-invite-newcomers-to-map
>>>> -over-complex-crisis-contexts.
>>>>
>>>> I guess some will argue that the OSM newcomers are people of good will
>>>> and that they just want to help and that they my feel offended/discouraged.
>>>> Of course their intentions are high and yes they may feel a bit hurt. But
>>>> this is really a classic in humanitarian response: people with the best
>>>> intentions in the world may not fit for it, just because they are not
>>>> experienced yet.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Mapping in OSM in crisis response is not an exciting one-shot hobby :
>>>> it does have its learning curve and it is key to learn how to map correctly
>>>> before being dropped over complex humanitarian contexts. This is why I
>>>> mentioned three sets of necessary skills for the jobs I created these last
>>>> days on http://taches.francophonelibre.org. And the beginner mappers
>>>> who joined the job that fitted for beginners are people that already have a
>>&

Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Pete Masters]

Level 3 for validation (JOSM)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> In this way HOT tasks simply get assigned at each level and you know you
>>> have the right people doing the tasks at hand. The task manager could also
>>> only highlight jobs at their assigned level until they do the next level
>>> training.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> You might even consider, as part of validation, dropping people from a
>>> higher level to a lower level if they continually fail to produce results
>>> at the desired consistency.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Just my thoughts as a casual mapper.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Cheers - Phil
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Thin Green Line Supporter <http://www.thingreenline.org.au/>, Volunteer
>>> Mapper (GISMO) - Red Cross
>>> <http://www.redcross.org.au/volunteering.aspx>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *From:* Severin Menard [mailto:severin.men...@gmail.com]
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:34 AM
>>> *To:* hot@openstreetmap.org
>>> *Subject:* [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The edits on hotosm.org job #2228 <http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2228>
>>> have started and now happens what I feared. There is no mention of what are
>>> the necessary skills and newbies are coming with a lot of enthusiasm but
>>> with almost no OSM experience. A quick analysis of the first 29
>>> contributors shows that 20 of them have created their OSM account less than
>>> one month ago. Some did it yesterday or today. Wow.
>>>
>>> The result of that : obviously, crappy edits are coming, spoiling what
>>> we have been doing over the last few days : now we have building as nodes
>>> where shapes are totally visible, un-squared bad shaped buildings and the
>>> main landuse area is self-cutting in various places (see there
>>> <https://leslibresgeographes.org/jirafeau/f.php?h=26gWjHki=1>).
>>>
>>> Nothing new under the sun : it was already the case for Haiti EarthQuake
>>> 2010. Quite a pity that six years after, despite the OSM tools have
>>> improved a lot, it remains the same. It is though quite simple to fix the
>>> most part of it: do-not-invite-newcomers-to-map
>>> -over-complex-crisis-contexts.
>>>
>>> I guess some will argue that the OSM newcomers are people of good will
>>> and that they just want to help and that they my feel offended/discouraged.
>>> Of course their intentions are high and yes they may feel a bit hurt. But
>>> this is really a classic in humanitarian response: people with the best
>>> intentions in the world may not fit for it, just because they are not
>>> experienced yet.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Mapping in OSM in crisis response is not an exciting one-shot hobby : it
>>> does have its learning curve and it is key to learn how to map correctly
>>> before being dropped over complex humanitarian contexts. This is why I
>>> mentioned three sets of necessary skills for the jobs I created these last
>>> days on http://taches.francophonelibre.org. And the beginner mappers
>>> who joined the job that fitted for beginners are people that already have a
>>> few months of OSM experience, not newcomers. Newcomers should be driven
>>> over non urgent fields.
>>>
>>> If someone is not interested to learn first in not a mass media covered
>>> crisis context : this is not a problem, it is actually a good way to see
>>> real motivations. I personally prefer to get one mapper that will become a
>>> huge, excellent contributor, 3-4 more occasional but still producing neat
>>> data, than to lose 10 that would create crappy objects and just leave
>>> forever afterwards anyway.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I guess the resulting need of duplicating the number of necessary edits
>>> (crappy ones then corrections) to get a clean data is a rather a good way
>>> to grow the number of total contributors and the number of total edits
>>> created through the # of the HOT TM instance that seems to be so important
>>> for the board of HOT US Inc (two current directors have contacted me for
>>> this purpose) to make communication and raise funds from the figures. But
>>> what is at stake here is to provide good baseline data for humanitarian
>>> response, not distorted metrics.
>>>
>>> Séverin
>>> ___
>>> HOT mailing list
>>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>>
>>
>> ___
>> HOT mailing list
>> HOT@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>>
>>
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
___
HOT mailing list
HOT@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot

Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Robert Banick]

Just quickly: I agree with both Heather and Jo.

I think the Tasking Manager and associated technologies are the
cornerstones on which we build mentoring, community and good practices. So
much of HOT’s way of operating in a disaster is set by the current
structure of the Tasking Manager. So if we build out a good new TM that
explicitly allows for mentoring, learning and on-boarding then we’ll be in
a better place.

Anyways for now mentoring, validating or pairing people + explicitly
inviting them onto Slack / IRC for questions is definitely necessary.

On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 12:44 PM Jo <winfi...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Unfortunately there will constantly be new crises. So we'll always be 'in
> the middle of a crisis'.
>
> Polyglot
>
> 2016-10-13 8:29 GMT+02:00 Robert Banick <rban...@gmail.com>:
>
> Hi all,
>
> HOT is clearly one of, if not the, most successful crowdsourcing projects
> for humanitarian response in the world. Success means not just contributors
> but also use of the data by actual humanitarians. It’s unsurprising we’re
> encountering some limits to the approach and need to evolve it.
>
> I like Phil and John’s automated approach to these things. I think the
> Tasking Manager has proven that the best way to manage these interactions
> is through an automated platform. My only concern is making what’s
> currently straightforward overly complex and intimidating for new users.
> But that’s a call for good design and introductory materials, not dumbing
> down our approach.
>
> However, it’s the middle of a disaster and clearly not the time for
> wholesale changes. I suggest we flag these thoughts for the forthcoming
> Tasking Manager redesign and embrace makeshift systems in the meantime.
>
> Cheers,
> Robert
>
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 8:31 AM Phil (The Geek) Wyatt <
> p...@wyatt-family.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Folks,
>
>
>
> I am a retired long time map user, occasional mapper (in QGIS, Mapinfo)
> and supporter of the OSM mapping project. It seems to me that the issue of
> poor mapping, especially for HOT projects, is coming up on such a regular
> basis that it's time to consider some mandatory training for users before
> they get to map under the HOT task manager. I don't think this would be too
> difficult for most volunteers and it could ensure that at least a certain
> level of competency is attained before being exposed to complex tasks. If
> people know that in the first place then they can make a choice as to
> whether they commence or continue to map.
>
>
>
> I have no idea how this could be accomplished as I know little of the
> linkages between OSM and the HOT Task Manager, but restricting HOT tasks to
> those with some defined training could improve the results.
>
>
>
> Let's say as a minimum you train folks on roads and residential area
> polygons - that might be level 1 (ID Editor)
>
> Level 2 could be after training for buildings, tracks, paths (ID or JOSM)
>
> Level 3 for validation (JOSM)
>
>
>
> In this way HOT tasks simply get assigned at each level and you know you
> have the right people doing the tasks at hand. The task manager could also
> only highlight jobs at their assigned level until they do the next level
> training.
>
>
>
> You might even consider, as part of validation, dropping people from a
> higher level to a lower level if they continually fail to produce results
> at the desired consistency.
>
>
>
> Just my thoughts as a casual mapper.
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers - Phil
>
>
>
> Thin Green Line Supporter <http://www.thingreenline.org.au/>, Volunteer
> Mapper (GISMO) - Red Cross <http://www.redcross.org.au/volunteering.aspx>
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Severin Menard [mailto:severin.men...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:34 AM
> *To:* hot@openstreetmap.org
> *Subject:* [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve
>
>
>
> The edits on hotosm.org job #2228 <http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2228>
> have started and now happens what I feared. There is no mention of what are
> the necessary skills and newbies are coming with a lot of enthusiasm but
> with almost no OSM experience. A quick analysis of the first 29
> contributors shows that 20 of them have created their OSM account less than
> one month ago. Some did it yesterday or today. Wow.
>
> The result of that : obviously, crappy edits are coming, spoiling what we
> have been doing over the last few days : now we have building as nodes
> where shapes are totally visible, un-squared bad shaped buildings and the
> main landuse area is self-cutting in various places (see there
> <https://leslibresgeographes.org/jirafeau/f.php?h=26gWjHki=1>).

Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Jo]

Unfortunately there will constantly be new crises. So we'll always be 'in
the middle of a crisis'.

Polyglot

2016-10-13 8:29 GMT+02:00 Robert Banick <rban...@gmail.com>:

> Hi all,
>
> HOT is clearly one of, if not the, most successful crowdsourcing projects
> for humanitarian response in the world. Success means not just contributors
> but also use of the data by actual humanitarians. It’s unsurprising we’re
> encountering some limits to the approach and need to evolve it.
>
> I like Phil and John’s automated approach to these things. I think the
> Tasking Manager has proven that the best way to manage these interactions
> is through an automated platform. My only concern is making what’s
> currently straightforward overly complex and intimidating for new users.
> But that’s a call for good design and introductory materials, not dumbing
> down our approach.
>
> However, it’s the middle of a disaster and clearly not the time for
> wholesale changes. I suggest we flag these thoughts for the forthcoming
> Tasking Manager redesign and embrace makeshift systems in the meantime.
>
> Cheers,
> Robert
>
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 8:31 AM Phil (The Geek) Wyatt <
> p...@wyatt-family.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> I am a retired long time map user, occasional mapper (in QGIS, Mapinfo)
>> and supporter of the OSM mapping project. It seems to me that the issue of
>> poor mapping, especially for HOT projects, is coming up on such a regular
>> basis that it's time to consider some mandatory training for users before
>> they get to map under the HOT task manager. I don't think this would be too
>> difficult for most volunteers and it could ensure that at least a certain
>> level of competency is attained before being exposed to complex tasks. If
>> people know that in the first place then they can make a choice as to
>> whether they commence or continue to map.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have no idea how this could be accomplished as I know little of the
>> linkages between OSM and the HOT Task Manager, but restricting HOT tasks to
>> those with some defined training could improve the results.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let's say as a minimum you train folks on roads and residential area
>> polygons - that might be level 1 (ID Editor)
>>
>> Level 2 could be after training for buildings, tracks, paths (ID or JOSM)
>>
>> Level 3 for validation (JOSM)
>>
>>
>>
>> In this way HOT tasks simply get assigned at each level and you know you
>> have the right people doing the tasks at hand. The task manager could also
>> only highlight jobs at their assigned level until they do the next level
>> training.
>>
>>
>>
>> You might even consider, as part of validation, dropping people from a
>> higher level to a lower level if they continually fail to produce results
>> at the desired consistency.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just my thoughts as a casual mapper.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers - Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> Thin Green Line Supporter <http://www.thingreenline.org.au/>, Volunteer
>> Mapper (GISMO) - Red Cross <http://www.redcross.org.au/volunteering.aspx>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Severin Menard [mailto:severin.men...@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:34 AM
>> *To:* hot@openstreetmap.org
>> *Subject:* [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve
>>
>>
>>
>> The edits on hotosm.org job #2228 <http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2228>
>> have started and now happens what I feared. There is no mention of what are
>> the necessary skills and newbies are coming with a lot of enthusiasm but
>> with almost no OSM experience. A quick analysis of the first 29
>> contributors shows that 20 of them have created their OSM account less than
>> one month ago. Some did it yesterday or today. Wow.
>>
>> The result of that : obviously, crappy edits are coming, spoiling what we
>> have been doing over the last few days : now we have building as nodes
>> where shapes are totally visible, un-squared bad shaped buildings and the
>> main landuse area is self-cutting in various places (see there
>> <https://leslibresgeographes.org/jirafeau/f.php?h=26gWjHki=1>).
>>
>> Nothing new under the sun : it was already the case for Haiti EarthQuake
>> 2010. Quite a pity that six years after, despite the OSM tools have
>> improved a lot, it remains the same. It is though quite simple to fix the
>> most part of it: do-not-invite-newcomers-to-map-over-complex-crisis-
>> contex

Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Heather Leson]

Robert et al
Thanks for this conversation.

This is not just about technology. As we evolve there needs to be more
mechanisms for learning, mentoring and on boarding. One way to do that is
to pair new learners with more experienced or simply peers.

HOT and OSM are growing communities.
I welcome new people as I think this is how a healthy global community
exists.

Heather

On 13 Oct 2016 08:32, "Robert Banick" <rban...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> HOT is clearly one of, if not the, most successful crowdsourcing projects
> for humanitarian response in the world. Success means not just contributors
> but also use of the data by actual humanitarians. It’s unsurprising we’re
> encountering some limits to the approach and need to evolve it.
>
> I like Phil and John’s automated approach to these things. I think the
> Tasking Manager has proven that the best way to manage these interactions
> is through an automated platform. My only concern is making what’s
> currently straightforward overly complex and intimidating for new users.
> But that’s a call for good design and introductory materials, not dumbing
> down our approach.
>
> However, it’s the middle of a disaster and clearly not the time for
> wholesale changes. I suggest we flag these thoughts for the forthcoming
> Tasking Manager redesign and embrace makeshift systems in the meantime.
>
> Cheers,
> Robert
>
> On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 8:31 AM Phil (The Geek) Wyatt <
> p...@wyatt-family.com> wrote:
>
>> Hi Folks,
>>
>>
>>
>> I am a retired long time map user, occasional mapper (in QGIS, Mapinfo)
>> and supporter of the OSM mapping project. It seems to me that the issue of
>> poor mapping, especially for HOT projects, is coming up on such a regular
>> basis that it's time to consider some mandatory training for users before
>> they get to map under the HOT task manager. I don't think this would be too
>> difficult for most volunteers and it could ensure that at least a certain
>> level of competency is attained before being exposed to complex tasks. If
>> people know that in the first place then they can make a choice as to
>> whether they commence or continue to map.
>>
>>
>>
>> I have no idea how this could be accomplished as I know little of the
>> linkages between OSM and the HOT Task Manager, but restricting HOT tasks to
>> those with some defined training could improve the results.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let's say as a minimum you train folks on roads and residential area
>> polygons - that might be level 1 (ID Editor)
>>
>> Level 2 could be after training for buildings, tracks, paths (ID or JOSM)
>>
>> Level 3 for validation (JOSM)
>>
>>
>>
>> In this way HOT tasks simply get assigned at each level and you know you
>> have the right people doing the tasks at hand. The task manager could also
>> only highlight jobs at their assigned level until they do the next level
>> training.
>>
>>
>>
>> You might even consider, as part of validation, dropping people from a
>> higher level to a lower level if they continually fail to produce results
>> at the desired consistency.
>>
>>
>>
>> Just my thoughts as a casual mapper.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Cheers - Phil
>>
>>
>>
>> Thin Green Line Supporter <http://www.thingreenline.org.au/>, Volunteer
>> Mapper (GISMO) - Red Cross <http://www.redcross.org.au/volunteering.aspx>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Severin Menard [mailto:severin.men...@gmail.com]
>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:34 AM
>> *To:* hot@openstreetmap.org
>> *Subject:* [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve
>>
>>
>>
>> The edits on hotosm.org job #2228 <http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2228>
>> have started and now happens what I feared. There is no mention of what are
>> the necessary skills and newbies are coming with a lot of enthusiasm but
>> with almost no OSM experience. A quick analysis of the first 29
>> contributors shows that 20 of them have created their OSM account less than
>> one month ago. Some did it yesterday or today. Wow.
>>
>> The result of that : obviously, crappy edits are coming, spoiling what we
>> have been doing over the last few days : now we have building as nodes
>> where shapes are totally visible, un-squared bad shaped buildings and the
>> main landuse area is self-cutting in various places (see there
>> <https://leslibresgeographes.org/jirafeau/f.php?h=26gWjHki=1>).
>>
>> Nothing new under the sun : it was already

Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Phil (The Geek) Wyatt]

Hi Folks,

 

I am a retired long time map user, occasional mapper (in QGIS, Mapinfo) and 
supporter of the OSM mapping project. It seems to me that the issue of poor 
mapping, especially for HOT projects, is coming up on such a regular basis that 
it's time to consider some mandatory training for users before they get to map 
under the HOT task manager. I don't think this would be too difficult for most 
volunteers and it could ensure that at least a certain level of competency is 
attained before being exposed to complex tasks. If people know that in the 
first place then they can make a choice as to whether they commence or continue 
to map.

 

I have no idea how this could be accomplished as I know little of the linkages 
between OSM and the HOT Task Manager, but restricting HOT tasks to those with 
some defined training could improve the results.

 

Let's say as a minimum you train folks on roads and residential area polygons - 
that might be level 1 (ID Editor)

Level 2 could be after training for buildings, tracks, paths (ID or JOSM)

Level 3 for validation (JOSM)

 

In this way HOT tasks simply get assigned at each level and you know you have 
the right people doing the tasks at hand. The task manager could also only 
highlight jobs at their assigned level until they do the next level training.

 

You might even consider, as part of validation, dropping people from a higher 
level to a lower level if they continually fail to produce results at the 
desired consistency.

 

Just my thoughts as a casual mapper.

 

 

Cheers - Phil

 

 <http://www.thingreenline.org.au/> Thin Green Line Supporter, Volunteer Mapper 
(GISMO) -  <http://www.redcross.org.au/volunteering.aspx> Red Cross 

 

 

From: Severin Menard [mailto:severin.men...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2016 4:34 AM
To: hot@openstreetmap.org
Subject: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

 

The edits on hotosm.org job #2228 <http://tasks.hotosm.org/project/2228>  have 
started and now happens what I feared. There is no mention of what are the 
necessary skills and newbies are coming with a lot of enthusiasm but with 
almost no OSM experience. A quick analysis of the first 29 contributors shows 
that 20 of them have created their OSM account less than one month ago. Some 
did it yesterday or today. Wow. 

The result of that : obviously, crappy edits are coming, spoiling what we have 
been doing over the last few days : now we have building as nodes where shapes 
are totally visible, un-squared bad shaped buildings and the main landuse area 
is self-cutting in various places (see there 
<https://leslibresgeographes.org/jirafeau/f.php?h=26gWjHki=1> ). 

Nothing new under the sun : it was already the case for Haiti EarthQuake 2010. 
Quite a pity that six years after, despite the OSM tools have improved a lot, 
it remains the same. It is though quite simple to fix the most part of it: 
do-not-invite-newcomers-to-map-over-complex-crisis-contexts.

I guess some will argue that the OSM newcomers are people of good will and that 
they just want to help and that they my feel offended/discouraged. Of course 
their intentions are high and yes they may feel a bit hurt. But this is really 
a classic in humanitarian response: people with the best intentions in the 
world may not fit for it, just because they are not experienced yet. 

 

Mapping in OSM in crisis response is not an exciting one-shot hobby : it does 
have its learning curve and it is key to learn how to map correctly before 
being dropped over complex humanitarian contexts. This is why I mentioned three 
sets of necessary skills for the jobs I created these last days on 
http://taches.francophonelibre.org. And the beginner mappers who joined the job 
that fitted for beginners are people that already have a few months of OSM 
experience, not newcomers. Newcomers should be driven over non urgent fields.

If someone is not interested to learn first in not a mass media covered crisis 
context : this is not a problem, it is actually a good way to see real 
motivations. I personally prefer to get one mapper that will become a huge, 
excellent contributor, 3-4 more occasional but still producing neat data, than 
to lose 10 that would create crappy objects and just leave forever afterwards 
anyway. 

 

I guess the resulting need of duplicating the number of necessary edits (crappy 
ones then corrections) to get a clean data is a rather a good way to grow the 
number of total contributors and the number of total edits created through the 
# of the HOT TM instance that seems to be so important for the board of HOT US 
Inc (two current directors have contacted me for this purpose) to make 
communication and raise funds from the figures. But what is at stake here is to 
provide good baseline data for humanitarian response, not distorted metrics.

Séverin

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Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Mikel Maron]

Could be a good idea John. Is there a GitHub issue?


Mikel

On Wednesday, October 12, 2016, 5:12 PM, john whelan  
wrote:

A suggestion would be for these types of tasks disable the tasking manager from 
communicating with anything but JOSM its a bit drastic but where data quality 
matters it is a very simple but crude method of keeping the very inexperienced 
mappers away.

The other suggestion is disable Tasking Manager from permitting anything but a 
JOSM mapper from validating but that would be on all projects.

Cheerio John

On 12 October 2016 at 16:57, Dale Kunce  wrote:

Thanks everyone. I agree that the task should be marked as appropriate for 
intermediate or advanced mappers. 
I also wanted to reiterate a point that Mikel made. Having two tasking 
managers, is not the greatest for more coordination. HOT's official tasking 
manager should be the only tasking manager used. Having conflicting tasks 
introduces errors and makes coordination for actual data use difficult.
Romain,Thanks for your suggestions. My apologies on not getting back to you 
I've been very busy and traveling the last couple of days.You are correct that 
we changed the way that created tasks. There was some debate within the 
activation team as to which way to do the work. All of your comments will be 
captured in the after action for some lesson's learned.
Thanks again for everyone that is contributing to the mapping.
Dale


On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Romain Bousson  wrote:

Hello,
I noticed the same issues recently. All along the week, as the media coverage 
increased, the way that the projects and tasks were completing themselves 
changed. From large tiles completed by several users turn by turn, we came to 
big tiles directly divided into tiny tasks, being completed by only one user in 
a few minutes. The peer review process, making the quality of the work, was 
botched. 
I personnaly found many tasks checked green as "validated" by newcomers, and 
"completed" by newcomers.

For example, here is an extract from a message I sent to Dale Kunce (admin of 
many Haïti projects), where I was pointing to the fact that many newcomers did 
not see the instructions tab and so did not use the new Digital Globe imagery, 
and stayed using Bing (that was before today's post disaster imagery). But I 
unfortunately received no answer. I am not here to complain about that: I 
understand that there may be a lot of other things to do during these days.
 
I just saw 4 tiles on the #2223 - Hurricane Matthew: Grand Anse coast project 
and all were wrong according to me (but maybe I am wrong and somebody have to 
tell me):- task #53 was checked "complete" by @michaelcraven, but many 
buildings were missing.- and the 3 main tasks of ANSE D'HAINAULT town : #232, 
#233 and #13. All 3 were clearly not done using Digital Globe imagery so it 
missed a lot of things.


I think some more warnings and advices written in the instructions tabs would 
be very simple and quite effective.

Cheers,
Romain Bousson (mapping as Romainbou)

2016-10-12 19:34 GMT+02:00 Severin Menard :

The edits on hotosm.org job #2228 have started and now happens what I feared. 
There is no mention of what are the necessary skills and newbies are coming 
with a lot of enthusiasm but with almost no OSM experience. A quick analysis of 
the first 29 contributors shows that 20 of them have created their OSM account 
less than one month ago. Some did it yesterday or today. Wow. 

The result of that : obviously, crappy edits are coming, spoiling what we have 
been doing over the last few days : now we have building as nodes where shapes 
are totally visible, un-squared bad shaped buildings and the main landuse area 
is self-cutting in various places (see there). 

Nothing new under the sun : it was already the case for Haiti EarthQuake 2010. 
Quite a pity that six years after, despite the OSM tools have improved a lot, 
it remains the same. It is though quite simple to fix the most part of it: 
do-not-invite-newcomers-to-map -over-complex-crisis-contexts.

I guess some will argue that the OSM newcomers are people of good will and that 
they just want to help and that they my feel offended/discouraged. Of course 
their intentions are high and yes they may feel a bit hurt. But this is really 
a classic in humanitarian response: people with the best intentions in the 
world may not fit for it, just because they are not experienced yet. 

Mapping in OSM in crisis response is not an exciting one-shot hobby : it does 
have its learning curve and it is key to learn how to map correctly before 
being dropped over complex humanitarian contexts. This is why I mentioned three 
sets of necessary skills for the jobs I created these last days on 
http://taches.francophonelibre .org. And the beginner mappers who joined the 
job that fitted for beginners are people that already have a few months of OSM 

Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[john whelan]

A suggestion would be for these types of tasks disable the tasking manager
from communicating with anything but JOSM its a bit drastic but where data
quality matters it is a very simple but crude method of keeping the very
inexperienced mappers away.

The other suggestion is disable Tasking Manager from permitting anything
but a JOSM mapper from validating but that would be on all projects.

Cheerio John

On 12 October 2016 at 16:57, Dale Kunce  wrote:

> Thanks everyone. I agree that the task should be marked as appropriate for
> intermediate or advanced mappers.
>
> I also wanted to reiterate a point that Mikel made. Having two tasking
> managers, is not the greatest for more coordination. HOT's official tasking
> manager should be the only tasking manager used. Having conflicting tasks
> introduces errors and makes coordination for actual data use difficult.
>
> Romain,
> Thanks for your suggestions. My apologies on not getting back to you I've
> been very busy and traveling the last couple of days.
> You are correct that we changed the way that created tasks. There was some
> debate within the activation team as to which way to do the work. All of
> your comments will be captured in the after action for some lesson's
> learned.
>
> Thanks again for everyone that is contributing to the mapping.
>
> Dale
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Romain Bousson 
> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>> I noticed the same issues recently. All along the week, as the media
>> coverage increased, the way that the projects and tasks were completing
>> themselves changed. From large tiles completed by several users turn by
>> turn, we came to big tiles directly divided into tiny tasks, being
>> completed by only one user in a few minutes. The peer review process,
>> making the quality of the work, was botched.
>> I personnaly found many tasks checked green as "validated" by newcomers,
>> and "completed" by newcomers.
>>
>> For example, here is an extract from a message I sent to Dale Kunce
>> (admin of many Haïti projects), where I was pointing to the fact that many
>> newcomers did not see the instructions tab and so did not use the new
>> Digital Globe imagery, and stayed using Bing (that was before today's post
>> disaster imagery). But I unfortunately received no answer. I am not here to
>> complain about that: I understand that there may be a lot of other things
>> to do during these days.
>>
>>
>>> I just saw 4 tiles on the #2223 - Hurricane Matthew: Grand Anse coast
>>> project and all were wrong according to me (but maybe I am wrong and
>>> somebody have to tell me): - task #53 was checked "complete" by
>>> @michaelcraven, but many buildings were missing. - and the 3 main tasks of
>>> ANSE D'HAINAULT town : #232, #233 and #13. All 3 were clearly not done
>>> using Digital Globe imagery so it missed a lot of things.
>>>
>>
>> I think some more warnings and advices written in the instructions tabs
>> would be very simple and quite effective.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Romain Bousson (mapping as Romainbou)
>>
>> 2016-10-12 19:34 GMT+02:00 Severin Menard :
>>
>>> The edits on hotosm.org job #2228 
>>> have started and now happens what I feared. There is no mention of what are
>>> the necessary skills and newbies are coming with a lot of enthusiasm but
>>> with almost no OSM experience. A quick analysis of the first 29
>>> contributors shows that 20 of them have created their OSM account less than
>>> one month ago. Some did it yesterday or today. Wow.
>>>
>>> The result of that : obviously, crappy edits are coming, spoiling what
>>> we have been doing over the last few days : now we have building as nodes
>>> where shapes are totally visible, un-squared bad shaped buildings and the
>>> main landuse area is self-cutting in various places (see there
>>> ).
>>>
>>> Nothing new under the sun : it was already the case for Haiti EarthQuake
>>> 2010. Quite a pity that six years after, despite the OSM tools have
>>> improved a lot, it remains the same. It is though quite simple to fix the
>>> most part of it: do-not-invite-newcomers-to-map
>>> -over-complex-crisis-contexts.
>>>
>>> I guess some will argue that the OSM newcomers are people of good will
>>> and that they just want to help and that they my feel offended/discouraged.
>>> Of course their intentions are high and yes they may feel a bit hurt. But
>>> this is really a classic in humanitarian response: people with the best
>>> intentions in the world may not fit for it, just because they are not
>>> experienced yet.
>>>
>>> Mapping in OSM in crisis response is not an exciting one-shot hobby : it
>>> does have its learning curve and it is key to learn how to map correctly
>>> before being dropped over complex humanitarian contexts. This is why I
>>> mentioned three sets of necessary skills for the jobs I created 

Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Dale Kunce]

Thanks everyone. I agree that the task should be marked as appropriate for
intermediate or advanced mappers.

I also wanted to reiterate a point that Mikel made. Having two tasking
managers, is not the greatest for more coordination. HOT's official tasking
manager should be the only tasking manager used. Having conflicting tasks
introduces errors and makes coordination for actual data use difficult.

Romain,
Thanks for your suggestions. My apologies on not getting back to you I've
been very busy and traveling the last couple of days.
You are correct that we changed the way that created tasks. There was some
debate within the activation team as to which way to do the work. All of
your comments will be captured in the after action for some lesson's
learned.

Thanks again for everyone that is contributing to the mapping.

Dale



On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Romain Bousson 
wrote:

> Hello,
> I noticed the same issues recently. All along the week, as the media
> coverage increased, the way that the projects and tasks were completing
> themselves changed. From large tiles completed by several users turn by
> turn, we came to big tiles directly divided into tiny tasks, being
> completed by only one user in a few minutes. The peer review process,
> making the quality of the work, was botched.
> I personnaly found many tasks checked green as "validated" by newcomers,
> and "completed" by newcomers.
>
> For example, here is an extract from a message I sent to Dale Kunce (admin
> of many Haïti projects), where I was pointing to the fact that many
> newcomers did not see the instructions tab and so did not use the new
> Digital Globe imagery, and stayed using Bing (that was before today's post
> disaster imagery). But I unfortunately received no answer. I am not here to
> complain about that: I understand that there may be a lot of other things
> to do during these days.
>
>
>> I just saw 4 tiles on the #2223 - Hurricane Matthew: Grand Anse coast
>> project and all were wrong according to me (but maybe I am wrong and
>> somebody have to tell me): - task #53 was checked "complete" by
>> @michaelcraven, but many buildings were missing. - and the 3 main tasks of
>> ANSE D'HAINAULT town : #232, #233 and #13. All 3 were clearly not done
>> using Digital Globe imagery so it missed a lot of things.
>>
>
> I think some more warnings and advices written in the instructions tabs
> would be very simple and quite effective.
>
> Cheers,
> Romain Bousson (mapping as Romainbou)
>
> 2016-10-12 19:34 GMT+02:00 Severin Menard :
>
>> The edits on hotosm.org job #2228 
>> have started and now happens what I feared. There is no mention of what are
>> the necessary skills and newbies are coming with a lot of enthusiasm but
>> with almost no OSM experience. A quick analysis of the first 29
>> contributors shows that 20 of them have created their OSM account less than
>> one month ago. Some did it yesterday or today. Wow.
>>
>> The result of that : obviously, crappy edits are coming, spoiling what we
>> have been doing over the last few days : now we have building as nodes
>> where shapes are totally visible, un-squared bad shaped buildings and the
>> main landuse area is self-cutting in various places (see there
>> ).
>>
>> Nothing new under the sun : it was already the case for Haiti EarthQuake
>> 2010. Quite a pity that six years after, despite the OSM tools have
>> improved a lot, it remains the same. It is though quite simple to fix the
>> most part of it: do-not-invite-newcomers-to-map
>> -over-complex-crisis-contexts.
>>
>> I guess some will argue that the OSM newcomers are people of good will
>> and that they just want to help and that they my feel offended/discouraged.
>> Of course their intentions are high and yes they may feel a bit hurt. But
>> this is really a classic in humanitarian response: people with the best
>> intentions in the world may not fit for it, just because they are not
>> experienced yet.
>>
>> Mapping in OSM in crisis response is not an exciting one-shot hobby : it
>> does have its learning curve and it is key to learn how to map correctly
>> before being dropped over complex humanitarian contexts. This is why I
>> mentioned three sets of necessary skills for the jobs I created these last
>> days on http://taches.francophonelibre.org. And the beginner mappers who
>> joined the job that fitted for beginners are people that already have a few
>> months of OSM experience, not newcomers. Newcomers should be driven over
>> non urgent fields.
>>
>> If someone is not interested to learn first in not a mass media covered
>> crisis context : this is not a problem, it is actually a good way to see
>> real motivations. I personally prefer to get one mapper that will become a
>> huge, excellent contributor, 3-4 more occasional but still producing neat
>> data, than to 

Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Romain Bousson]

Hello,
I noticed the same issues recently. All along the week, as the media
coverage increased, the way that the projects and tasks were completing
themselves changed. From large tiles completed by several users turn by
turn, we came to big tiles directly divided into tiny tasks, being
completed by only one user in a few minutes. The peer review process,
making the quality of the work, was botched.
I personnaly found many tasks checked green as "validated" by newcomers,
and "completed" by newcomers.

For example, here is an extract from a message I sent to Dale Kunce (admin
of many Haïti projects), where I was pointing to the fact that many
newcomers did not see the instructions tab and so did not use the new
Digital Globe imagery, and stayed using Bing (that was before today's post
disaster imagery). But I unfortunately received no answer. I am not here to
complain about that: I understand that there may be a lot of other things
to do during these days.


> I just saw 4 tiles on the #2223 - Hurricane Matthew: Grand Anse coast
> project and all were wrong according to me (but maybe I am wrong and
> somebody have to tell me): - task #53 was checked "complete" by
> @michaelcraven, but many buildings were missing. - and the 3 main tasks of
> ANSE D'HAINAULT town : #232, #233 and #13. All 3 were clearly not done
> using Digital Globe imagery so it missed a lot of things.
>

I think some more warnings and advices written in the instructions tabs
would be very simple and quite effective.

Cheers,
Romain Bousson (mapping as Romainbou)

2016-10-12 19:34 GMT+02:00 Severin Menard :

> The edits on hotosm.org job #2228 
> have started and now happens what I feared. There is no mention of what are
> the necessary skills and newbies are coming with a lot of enthusiasm but
> with almost no OSM experience. A quick analysis of the first 29
> contributors shows that 20 of them have created their OSM account less than
> one month ago. Some did it yesterday or today. Wow.
>
> The result of that : obviously, crappy edits are coming, spoiling what we
> have been doing over the last few days : now we have building as nodes
> where shapes are totally visible, un-squared bad shaped buildings and the
> main landuse area is self-cutting in various places (see there
> ).
>
> Nothing new under the sun : it was already the case for Haiti EarthQuake
> 2010. Quite a pity that six years after, despite the OSM tools have
> improved a lot, it remains the same. It is though quite simple to fix the
> most part of it: do-not-invite-newcomers-to-map
> -over-complex-crisis-contexts.
>
> I guess some will argue that the OSM newcomers are people of good will and
> that they just want to help and that they my feel offended/discouraged. Of
> course their intentions are high and yes they may feel a bit hurt. But this
> is really a classic in humanitarian response: people with the best
> intentions in the world may not fit for it, just because they are not
> experienced yet.
>
> Mapping in OSM in crisis response is not an exciting one-shot hobby : it
> does have its learning curve and it is key to learn how to map correctly
> before being dropped over complex humanitarian contexts. This is why I
> mentioned three sets of necessary skills for the jobs I created these last
> days on http://taches.francophonelibre.org. And the beginner mappers who
> joined the job that fitted for beginners are people that already have a few
> months of OSM experience, not newcomers. Newcomers should be driven over
> non urgent fields.
>
> If someone is not interested to learn first in not a mass media covered
> crisis context : this is not a problem, it is actually a good way to see
> real motivations. I personally prefer to get one mapper that will become a
> huge, excellent contributor, 3-4 more occasional but still producing neat
> data, than to lose 10 that would create crappy objects and just leave
> forever afterwards anyway.
>
> I guess the resulting need of duplicating the number of necessary edits
> (crappy ones then corrections) to get a clean data is a rather a good way
> to grow the number of total contributors and the number of total edits
> created through the # of the HOT TM instance that seems to be so important
> for the board of HOT US Inc (two current directors have contacted me for
> this purpose) to make communication and raise funds from the figures. But
> what is at stake here is to provide good baseline data for humanitarian
> response, not distorted metrics.
>
> Séverin
>
> ___
> HOT mailing list
> HOT@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/hot
>
>
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Re: [HOT] OSM humanitarian mapping and its learning curve

[Mikel Maron]

I think the main point here is that skill level required on that task should be 
higher, and that the task instructions should reflect that. I’ve alerted the 
HOT activation leads for Haiti, and expect that will be looked at soon. 
On a related note I think there may be tasks overlapping the same area posted 
on http://taches.francophonelibre.org/. Having another tasking manager instance 
organizing tasks over the same areas without coordination with the HOT 
activation leads is most certainly going to cause confusion, and best to be 
avoided.
-Mikel * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron 

On Wednesday, October 12, 2016 1:36 PM, Severin Menard 
 wrote:
 
 

 The edits on hotosm.org job #2228 have started and now happens what I feared. 
There is no mention of what are the necessary skills and newbies are coming 
with a lot of enthusiasm but with almost no OSM experience. A quick analysis of 
the first 29 contributors shows that 20 of them have created their OSM account 
less than one month ago. Some did it yesterday or today. Wow. 

The result of that : obviously, crappy edits are coming, spoiling what we have 
been doing over the last few days : now we have building as nodes where shapes 
are totally visible, un-squared bad shaped buildings and the main landuse area 
is self-cutting in various places (see there). 

Nothing new under the sun : it was already the case for Haiti EarthQuake 2010. 
Quite a pity that six years after, despite the OSM tools have improved a lot, 
it remains the same. It is though quite simple to fix the most part of it: 
do-not-invite-newcomers-to- map-over-complex-crisis- contexts.

I guess some will argue that the OSM newcomers are people of good will and that 
they just want to help and that they my feel offended/discouraged. Of course 
their intentions are high and yes they may feel a bit hurt. But this is really 
a classic in humanitarian response: people with the best intentions in the 
world may not fit for it, just because they are not experienced yet. 

Mapping in OSM in crisis response is not an exciting one-shot hobby : it does 
have its learning curve and it is key to learn how to map correctly before 
being dropped over complex humanitarian contexts. This is why I mentioned three 
sets of necessary skills for the jobs I created these last days on 
http://taches. francophonelibre.org. And the beginner mappers who joined the 
job that fitted for beginners are people that already have a few months of OSM 
experience, not newcomers. Newcomers should be driven over non urgent fields.

If someone is not interested to learn first in not a mass media covered crisis 
context : this is not a problem, it is actually a good way to see real 
motivations. I personally prefer to get one mapper that will become a huge, 
excellent contributor, 3-4 more occasional but still producing neat data, than 
to lose 10 that would create crappy objects and just leave forever afterwards 
anyway. 

I guess the resulting need of duplicating the number of necessary edits (crappy 
ones then corrections) to get a clean data is a rather a good way to grow the 
number of total contributors and the number of total edits created through the 
# of the HOT TM instance that seems to be so important for the board of HOT US 
Inc (two current directors have contacted me for this purpose) to make 
communication and raise funds from the figures. But what is at stake here is to 
provide good baseline data for humanitarian response, not distorted metrics.

Séverin

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