Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
Yet another one here: http://hginit.com/00.html http://hginit.com/00.htmlThe title says it all: Subversion re-education. It is actualyy a somewhat neutral article even though the page is a mercurial tutorial. Regards, David http://hginit.com/00.html On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 12:44 AM, Larry Garfield la...@garfieldtech.comwrote: The Drupal project's decision making process for moving to Git is documented extensively here: http://groups.drupal.org/node/48818 Just another data point. --Larry Garfield On Wednesday, December 01, 2010 2:52:53 pm dukeofgaming wrote: Hi, I was following this path to push the adoption of a DVCS for the Joomla project and I started to create the required documentation to make an informed argument and evaluation, I made some diagrams to make the case for their need for good team development and workflows, feel free to borrow any content/diagrams from here http://docs.joomla.org/Dvcs If an RFC is started I'd love to help. I have experience with git and mercurial. http://docs.joomla.org/DvcsRegards, David -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
dukeofgaming wrote: Yet another one here:http://hginit.com/00.html http://hginit.com/00.htmlThe title says it all: Subversion re-education. It is actualyy a somewhat neutral article even though the page is a mercurial tutorial. Actually this probably point up one of the fundamental differences between the different ways of working. 'Most people work with Mercurial through the command line' ... fill in your own package ... Personally I very rairly use any of these from the command line, since Eclipse has fully integrated facilities. The statement 'it just works from the cammand line' only applies if that is what you are still using, but even CVS I would have to dig out the manual to use the command line. Productivity wise, having to pull out of the IDE to do code management is the main problem with switching from CVS/SVN to any of the alternatives, but the main thing I can't understand is how people actually MANAGE with command line when dealing with a large number of changes? A graphical facility is almost essential when navigating around complex code trees and viewing diffs which are more than a few dozen lines? ( Pierre this is probably one of the reasons I had so much trouble building PHP on windows ... simply because I have used graphic IDE's since C++ Builder 1 days and before :( Command line working is a somewhat different mind set ... and prior to C++ I was working on hand coded machine code ... ) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
Its actually faster to use the command line when u have enough practice; picture yourself merging branches or something more complicated, I think its easier typing stuff as you think it than finding your way around a GUI, command line reacts faster than a GUI too. I use the IDE integration though, but not the shell integration, at all. I agree on visualizing repository tree on the GUI though. In the end its up to each individual. Regards, David On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 3:12 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: dukeofgaming wrote: Yet another one here:http://hginit.com/00.html http://hginit.com/00.htmlThe title says it all: Subversion re-education. It is actualyy a somewhat neutral article even though the page is a mercurial tutorial. Actually this probably point up one of the fundamental differences between the different ways of working. 'Most people work with Mercurial through the command line' ... fill in your own package ... Personally I very rairly use any of these from the command line, since Eclipse has fully integrated facilities. The statement 'it just works from the cammand line' only applies if that is what you are still using, but even CVS I would have to dig out the manual to use the command line. Productivity wise, having to pull out of the IDE to do code management is the main problem with switching from CVS/SVN to any of the alternatives, but the main thing I can't understand is how people actually MANAGE with command line when dealing with a large number of changes? A graphical facility is almost essential when navigating around complex code trees and viewing diffs which are more than a few dozen lines? ( Pierre this is probably one of the reasons I had so much trouble building PHP on windows ... simply because I have used graphic IDE's since C++ Builder 1 days and before :( Command line working is a somewhat different mind set ... and prior to C++ I was working on hand coded machine code ... ) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
dukeofgaming wrote: Its actually faster to use the command line when u have enough practice; picture yourself merging branches or something more complicated, I think its easier typing stuff as you think it than finding your way around a GUI, command line reacts faster than a GUI too. I use the IDE integration though, but not the shell integration, at all. I agree on visualizing repository tree on the GUI though. In the end its up to each individual. This is the key here. When working on PHP projects via CVS and SVN I get a view of all the files which have changed in the IDE. I can then review those changes and only need to select those which do not clash with my own local changes. I can also immediately see committed changes that NEED to be rolled back because they DO clash with the areas that I am maintaining! Simply automatically merging from the command line does not work FOR ME. DVCS in theory provides a nice way for me to manage my own builds of these projects, but the black hole is now how the clash problems are handled as there is no easy way to roll back a change that has broken something else. Adding the complexity of multiple packages across several projects ... smarty, adodb and the like, or building the internal extensions which use libraries from the likes of apache, firebird ... in theory should be simplified by the use of a DVCS approach, but the reality is that it is still very early days and while people are running to a number of camps there needs to be a more tidy integration path rather than the current diversity that has been created. I think that what we actually need is a complete rethink of what the problems are ... including managing the user projects rather than JUST raw source code ... and agree a level of operation rather than the current approach of slagging off the paths that you do not agree with. Every package has problems and none of them offer a single solution? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
Such IDE integration exists for mercurial, both for Eclipse and Netbeans, also at shell level. I really don't get why you say there is no easy way to rollback changes, because there is. I do manage package updates and installations through SVN (e.g. updating symfony, doctrine), I just don't use SVN to work with other people. I believe that managing packages and working with people should not be regarded as the same thing when talking about versioning systems. I think the main and general drive of people for adopting a DVCS is just that, better workflows, and fortunately, some of them have actually worried about interoperability, meaning its possible to import files from other (D)VCSs. Regards, David On Thu, Dec 2, 2010 at 4:02 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: dukeofgaming wrote: Its actually faster to use the command line when u have enough practice; picture yourself merging branches or something more complicated, I think its easier typing stuff as you think it than finding your way around a GUI, command line reacts faster than a GUI too. I use the IDE integration though, but not the shell integration, at all. I agree on visualizing repository tree on the GUI though. In the end its up to each individual. This is the key here. When working on PHP projects via CVS and SVN I get a view of all the files which have changed in the IDE. I can then review those changes and only need to select those which do not clash with my own local changes. I can also immediately see committed changes that NEED to be rolled back because they DO clash with the areas that I am maintaining! Simply automatically merging from the command line does not work FOR ME. DVCS in theory provides a nice way for me to manage my own builds of these projects, but the black hole is now how the clash problems are handled as there is no easy way to roll back a change that has broken something else. Adding the complexity of multiple packages across several projects ... smarty, adodb and the like, or building the internal extensions which use libraries from the likes of apache, firebird ... in theory should be simplified by the use of a DVCS approach, but the reality is that it is still very early days and while people are running to a number of camps there needs to be a more tidy integration path rather than the current diversity that has been created. I think that what we actually need is a complete rethink of what the problems are ... including managing the user projects rather than JUST raw source code ... and agree a level of operation rather than the current approach of slagging off the paths that you do not agree with. Every package has problems and none of them offer a single solution? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
dukeofgaming wrote: Such IDE integration exists for mercurial, both for Eclipse and Netbeans, also at shell level. This has already been covered ... git and hg integration is only partially functional. Git is a right pain in windows, while hg is at least functional identically in both linux and windows. BUT sub-repo is an area that is not currently supported in any of the integration tools and hg-git actually fails if there is a git sub-repo. Keeping each extension of php in it's own sub-repo is the obvious way of managing things, but is the very area that is not fully functional. Building a single 'download' of a group of packages is not something that can currently be handled, as the 'module' structure of CVS simply can't be mapped. A single CVS repo becomes 200+ separate repo's in hg or git, and you then need script files to manage things, which is fine for command line users, but a problem for the IDE approach. I really don't get why you say there is no easy way to rollback changes, because there is. I do manage package updates and installations through SVN (e.g. updating symfony, doctrine), I just don't use SVN to work with other people. I believe that managing packages and working with people should not be regarded as the same thing when talking about versioning systems. Again you are missing the point here. CVS/SVN works nicely for managing a master code base. DVCS does not naturally support that, and this is a major area that needs to be managed by any project switching so that you CAN manage a master codebase. The problem I was trying to highlight was that with patches around a number of distributed copies, managing a 'rollback' can be difficult if several people have pushed around different paths, and currently the available tools do not allow the same flexibility that has been provided for CVS/SVN for several years. I think the main and general drive of people for adopting a DVCS is just that, better workflows, and fortunately, some of them have actually worried about interoperability, meaning its possible to import files from other (D)VCSs. Again ... there is no 'natural' workflow so it becomes a lot more difficult to cooperate. I still think that a 'master' of the CVS/SVN type may be preferable rather than trying to manage that via a DVCS maze? All of the projects that have published their research have indicated that there is not a simple answer and that the goal posts are still moving on a weekly basis? hg has published improvements to the sub-repo problem only this week, but the integration packages still have to catch up. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On 12/2/10 5:33 AM, Lester Caine wrote: Again you are missing the point here. CVS/SVN works nicely for managing a master code base. DVCS does not naturally support that, and this is a major area that needs to be managed by any project switching so that you CAN manage a master codebase. I used to think that; I had no idea how you had an authoritative repo when everyone had a repo. Then I actually started working with Git, and the answer became obvious: You agree on one. You agree on a particular branch in a particular repo (eg, the one hosted on kernel.org / drupal.org / php.net) is the canonical branch, possibly restrict who can push to that (or not, but I think that would help PHP by having a release manager named early who can merge micro-branches), and document it. Git doesn't technologically force an answer on you; you get to define one socially. That actually works surprisingly well in practice in a functional project. (If PHP can't come to such an agreement in practice, that's a social problem, not a tool problem.) --Larry Garfield -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
hi, I think we have enough feedback about this topic. We will come back with a detailed proposal explaining how it could be done, which tools, etc. Thanks for the constructive replies, Cheers, On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 9:41 PM, dukeofgaming dukeofgam...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, I've never participated on the lists, but this was a topic I could just not look away from. My take on this is that it all boils down to the statistics of the developers and contributors, as Gwynne said, there is really no much merit on technical aspects of the tools... but rather how the community plans to use other tools around it. My preferred DVCS is mercurial due to its portability (no messing with bash consoles in Windows, using it is the same for all platforms) and the fact that I use Netbeans as my main IDE and it comes by default with the mercurial plugin (the Netbeans project uses mercurial). I also like mercurial because Bitbucket.org is comparable enough to github, and more generous with its free accounts (free private repositories and unlimited space). I also like git, but I stick with mercurial. I have never used bazaar... and I have never used svn for team development, fortunately =). Regards, David On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Gwynne Raskind wrote: *Googles.* *Reads.* Well... dang. Go Wez!! Magic just what I was looking for as well. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On 2010-12-01, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: hi, I think we have enough feedback about this topic. We will come back with a detailed proposal explaining how it could be done, which tools, etc. I think it would be good to have people willing to help out with evaluating certain DVCS. In particular we need someone for BZR to put together a good RFC. I'll probably help evaluating Git and Mercurial. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On Wed, 2010-12-01 at 10:01 -0500, David Soria Parra wrote: On 2010-12-01, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: hi, I think we have enough feedback about this topic. We will come back with a detailed proposal explaining how it could be done, which tools, etc. I think it would be good to have people willing to help out with evaluating certain DVCS. In particular we need someone for BZR to put together a good RFC. I'll probably help evaluating Git and Mercurial. An evaluation requires a clear set of goals first. Like: Why change? What is broken? What can be improved? What are existing requirements? Once that is done one can start evaluating specific tools. johannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On 01.12.2010 16:16, Johannes Schlüter wrote: On Wed, 2010-12-01 at 10:01 -0500, David Soria Parra wrote: On 2010-12-01, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: hi, I think we have enough feedback about this topic. We will come back with a detailed proposal explaining how it could be done, which tools, etc. I think it would be good to have people willing to help out with evaluating certain DVCS. In particular we need someone for BZR to put together a good RFC. I'll probably help evaluating Git and Mercurial. An evaluation requires a clear set of goals first. Like: Why change? What is broken? What can be improved? What are existing requirements? Once that is done one can start evaluating specific tools. yes, I'm aware of that, but it make sense to ask for people support right during a discussion. So we can get together and discuss the goals. johannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On Dec 1, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Johannes Schlüter wrote: On Wed, 2010-12-01 at 10:01 -0500, David Soria Parra wrote: On 2010-12-01, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: hi, I think we have enough feedback about this topic. We will come back with a detailed proposal explaining how it could be done, which tools, etc. I think it would be good to have people willing to help out with evaluating certain DVCS. In particular we need someone for BZR to put together a good RFC. I'll probably help evaluating Git and Mercurial. An evaluation requires a clear set of goals first. Like: Why change? What is broken? What can be improved? What are existing requirements? Once that is done one can start evaluating specific tools. Instead of doing this, how about concentrate in actual work for the next release? And IMO, there's nothing broken that needs fixing or changing to some DVCS since SVN works just fine.. --Jani -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
thanks for remember me the obvious questions, anything else to add or? 2010/12/1 Johannes Schlüter johan...@schlueters.de: On Wed, 2010-12-01 at 10:01 -0500, David Soria Parra wrote: On 2010-12-01, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: hi, I think we have enough feedback about this topic. We will come back with a detailed proposal explaining how it could be done, which tools, etc. I think it would be good to have people willing to help out with evaluating certain DVCS. In particular we need someone for BZR to put together a good RFC. I'll probably help evaluating Git and Mercurial. An evaluation requires a clear set of goals first. Like: Why change? What is broken? What can be improved? What are existing requirements? Once that is done one can start evaluating specific tools. johannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
Hi, I was following this path to push the adoption of a DVCS for the Joomla project and I started to create the required documentation to make an informed argument and evaluation, I made some diagrams to make the case for their need for good team development and workflows, feel free to borrow any content/diagrams from here http://docs.joomla.org/Dvcs If an RFC is started I'd love to help. I have experience with git and mercurial. http://docs.joomla.org/DvcsRegards, David 2010/12/1 Johannes Schlüter johan...@schlueters.de On Wed, 2010-12-01 at 10:01 -0500, David Soria Parra wrote: On 2010-12-01, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: hi, I think we have enough feedback about this topic. We will come back with a detailed proposal explaining how it could be done, which tools, etc. I think it would be good to have people willing to help out with evaluating certain DVCS. In particular we need someone for BZR to put together a good RFC. I'll probably help evaluating Git and Mercurial. An evaluation requires a clear set of goals first. Like: Why change? What is broken? What can be improved? What are existing requirements? Once that is done one can start evaluating specific tools. johannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
The Drupal project's decision making process for moving to Git is documented extensively here: http://groups.drupal.org/node/48818 Just another data point. --Larry Garfield On Wednesday, December 01, 2010 2:52:53 pm dukeofgaming wrote: Hi, I was following this path to push the adoption of a DVCS for the Joomla project and I started to create the required documentation to make an informed argument and evaluation, I made some diagrams to make the case for their need for good team development and workflows, feel free to borrow any content/diagrams from here http://docs.joomla.org/Dvcs If an RFC is started I'd love to help. I have experience with git and mercurial. http://docs.joomla.org/DvcsRegards, David -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On Nov 29, 2010, at 4:19 AM, Lester Caine wrote: I've not used git or hg much at all, but bzr has always satisfied my needs for DVCS, and has recently gotten much faster and more space efficient than it was in the past. Sorry, but I think bzr is not a good fit. It's numerous changes to the repository format make it impossible to use. It's either slow if you use an old version, or it's incompatible with old clients, let's say on an old debian box. So I think php.net is better of using mercurial or git, but if we put together an RFC for a migration, I'll make sure bzr is covered as well in an evaluation. Personally I would need a very good reason to add yet another DVCS to the mix here! I've not found bzr as easy to link to from hg as git is. In fact I've not actually got it to play at all as yet ... while hg does work into git with only the problems of managing multiple repo's which is still work in progress on both of them. That said, bzr does seem to handle the multiple repo's in a more user friendly manor? It is just a pity that there is NOT a single target solution for DVCS as everybody is currently scurrying off to their own corners :( The barriers have already been drawn rather then there being concensus on some sort of standard. I think it's high time I tossed in my 1.682¥(JPY) (according to current exchange rates)... I've been out of the PHP dev community for some months now, so anything I say has to be taken with a grain of salt; I simply don't have the time right now to catch up in any detail on the current state of affairs. That in mind, I was already disgusted with SVN by the time the move to it was finished. At the risk of drawing a bit of fire, I have to say I agree with Linus Torvalds' attitude about it, when he said (search Linus Torvalds subversion on Google for the reference) that it was pointless and that CVS couldn't be done right. SVN ditched things CVS had that should've been kept. Sub-repo management (modules) and module merging/aliasing are the two I fought most with during the migration; externals were a BAD patch on the problem! SVN was trying to do CVS right, but that simply doesn't hold together in the modern software development world. Centralized servers by themselves are an old model. Simple, but old. That's why DVCSs exist in the first place! So yes, I think PHP needs to move past Subversion, which is being constantly held back by a model that's just too limited. The branching/merging nightmare seals the coffin, as far as I'm concerned. Which DVCS do I think is best? Git is the massive favorite out there at the moment, according to my Googling. I myself have never been able to fully get my head around it; someone said earlier in the thread that it's a swiss army knife with a boom button, a sentiment I tend to agree with. Still, someone else also correctly said that the huge majority of devs in PHP right now do use it, and that can't be ignored. It is my observation that the Windows issues have been largely solved in more recent times. GitHub itself (while I would prefer something we host ourselves), is pretty easy to use. I don't know much about Mercurial, having never used it, so I can't comment much on it. The fact that it continues to be prevalent at all versus Git says something for it, but it falls down against the ubiquity argument, as a quick glance suggests to me that the learning curve would actually be a bit worse than Git's. Its Web interface makes me cringe. Bazaar is -my- current favorite, as its commands tend to translate almost directly from SVN's and while a minority, it has a passionate following (largely thanks to Ubuntu and MySQL, I think). But it being my personal favorite doesn't mean much. I also find Launchpad a bit incomprehensible, and Bazaar being written in Python feels a little odd to me. Don't we rely enough already on competing languages? :) (Mercurial also suffers from this.) I am not going to attempt any kind of conclusion based on technical merits (branching/merging ability, sub-repo support, etc.), as I don't know what the status of these features is, and even if I did, I no longer have enough knowledge of PHP's current state to apply the knowledge. So, I have to base my thought on what the most people are going to have the least trouble working with, and that's Git, hands down. There are more than enough people around the community with the full knowledge necessary to undertake the migration with minimum fuss; it's been pointed out that the kind of massive manual balancing I had to do for CVS-SVN would be completely absent. I just wish I didn't have to also admit that Trac is a really great project management system. Unless things have changed drastically since I was last active, PHP still needs one. ^^; -- Gwynne -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Gwynne Raskind gwy...@darkrainfall.orgwrote: On Nov 29, 2010, at 4:19 AM, Lester Caine wrote: I've not used git or hg much at all, but bzr has always satisfied my needs for DVCS, and has recently gotten much faster and more space efficient than it was in the past. Sorry, but I think bzr is not a good fit. It's numerous changes to the repository format make it impossible to use. It's either slow if you use an old version, or it's incompatible with old clients, let's say on an old debian box. So I think php.net is better of using mercurial or git, but if we put together an RFC for a migration, I'll make sure bzr is covered as well in an evaluation. Personally I would need a very good reason to add yet another DVCS to the mix here! I've not found bzr as easy to link to from hg as git is. In fact I've not actually got it to play at all as yet ... while hg does work into git with only the problems of managing multiple repo's which is still work in progress on both of them. That said, bzr does seem to handle the multiple repo's in a more user friendly manor? It is just a pity that there is NOT a single target solution for DVCS as everybody is currently scurrying off to their own corners :( The barriers have already been drawn rather then there being concensus on some sort of standard. I think it's high time I tossed in my 1.682¥(JPY) (according to current exchange rates)... I've been out of the PHP dev community for some months now, so anything I say has to be taken with a grain of salt; I simply don't have the time right now to catch up in any detail on the current state of affairs. That in mind, I was already disgusted with SVN by the time the move to it was finished. At the risk of drawing a bit of fire, I have to say I agree with Linus Torvalds' attitude about it, when he said (search Linus Torvalds subversion on Google for the reference) that it was pointless and that CVS couldn't be done right. SVN ditched things CVS had that should've been kept. Sub-repo management (modules) and module merging/aliasing are the two I fought most with during the migration; externals were a BAD patch on the problem! SVN was trying to do CVS right, but that simply doesn't hold together in the modern software development world. Centralized servers by themselves are an old model. Simple, but old. That's why DVCSs exist in the first place! So yes, I think PHP needs to move past Subversion, which is being constantly held back by a model that's just too limited. The branching/merging nightmare seals the coffin, as far as I'm concerned. Which DVCS do I think is best? Git is the massive favorite out there at the moment, according to my Googling. I myself have never been able to fully get my head around it; someone said earlier in the thread that it's a swiss army knife with a boom button, a sentiment I tend to agree with. Still, someone else also correctly said that the huge majority of devs in PHP right now do use it, and that can't be ignored. It is my observation that the Windows issues have been largely solved in more recent times. GitHub itself (while I would prefer something we host ourselves), is pretty easy to use. I don't know much about Mercurial, having never used it, so I can't comment much on it. The fact that it continues to be prevalent at all versus Git says something for it, but it falls down against the ubiquity argument, as a quick glance suggests to me that the learning curve would actually be a bit worse than Git's. Its Web interface makes me cringe. Bazaar is -my- current favorite, as its commands tend to translate almost directly from SVN's and while a minority, it has a passionate following (largely thanks to Ubuntu and MySQL, I think). But it being my personal favorite doesn't mean much. I also find Launchpad a bit incomprehensible, and Bazaar being written in Python feels a little odd to me. Don't we rely enough already on competing languages? :) (Mercurial also suffers from this.) I am not going to attempt any kind of conclusion based on technical merits (branching/merging ability, sub-repo support, etc.), as I don't know what the status of these features is, and even if I did, I no longer have enough knowledge of PHP's current state to apply the knowledge. So, I have to base my thought on what the most people are going to have the least trouble working with, and that's Git, hands down. There are more than enough people around the community with the full knowledge necessary to undertake the migration with minimum fuss; it's been pointed out that the kind of massive manual balancing I had to do for CVS-SVN would be completely absent. I just wish I didn't have to also admit that Trac is a really great project management system. Unless things have changed drastically since I was last active, PHP still needs one. ^^; -- Gwynne -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On Nov 30, 2010, at 5:10 AM, Ferenc Kovacs wrote: I just wish I didn't have to also admit that Trac is a really great project management system. Unless things have changed drastically since I was last active, PHP still needs one. ^^; just a little comment on the last statement: do you know about mtrack? it is a trac clone written in php by Wez *Googles.* *Reads.* Well... dang. Go Wez!! I like it :-). Thanks for the pointer! I'll have to look into that in more detail soon, it could prove very useful. And it looks a good bit better than Trac too ;-). -- Gwynne -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
Gwynne Raskind wrote: *Googles.* *Reads.* Well... dang. Go Wez!! Magic just what I was looking for as well. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
Hi, I've never participated on the lists, but this was a topic I could just not look away from. My take on this is that it all boils down to the statistics of the developers and contributors, as Gwynne said, there is really no much merit on technical aspects of the tools... but rather how the community plans to use other tools around it. My preferred DVCS is mercurial due to its portability (no messing with bash consoles in Windows, using it is the same for all platforms) and the fact that I use Netbeans as my main IDE and it comes by default with the mercurial plugin (the Netbeans project uses mercurial). I also like mercurial because Bitbucket.org is comparable enough to github, and more generous with its free accounts (free private repositories and unlimited space). I also like git, but I stick with mercurial. I have never used bazaar... and I have never used svn for team development, fortunately =). Regards, David On Tue, Nov 30, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Gwynne Raskind wrote: *Googles.* *Reads.* Well... dang. Go Wez!! Magic just what I was looking for as well. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On 2010-11-29, Clint Byrum cl...@ubuntu.com wrote: On Sat, 2010-11-27 at 16:26 +, Lester Caine wrote: I've not used git or hg much at all, but bzr has always satisfied my needs for DVCS, and has recently gotten much faster and more space efficient than it was in the past. Sorry, but I think bzr is not a good fit. It's numerous changes to the repository format make it impossible to use. It's either slow if you use an old version, or it's incompatible with old clients, let's say on an old debian box. So I think php.net is better of using mercurial or git, but if we put together an RFC for a migration, I'll make sure bzr is covered as well in an evaluation. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
David Soria Parra wrote: On 2010-11-29, Clint Byrumcl...@ubuntu.com wrote: On Sat, 2010-11-27 at 16:26 +, Lester Caine wrote: I've not used git or hg much at all, but bzr has always satisfied my needs for DVCS, and has recently gotten much faster and more space efficient than it was in the past. Sorry, but I think bzr is not a good fit. It's numerous changes to the repository format make it impossible to use. It's either slow if you use an old version, or it's incompatible with old clients, let's say on an old debian box. So I think php.net is better of using mercurial or git, but if we put together an RFC for a migration, I'll make sure bzr is covered as well in an evaluation. Personally I would need a very good reason to add yet another DVCS to the mix here! I've not found bzr as easy to link to from hg as git is. In fact I've not actually got it to play at all as yet ... while hg does work into git with only the problems of managing multiple repo's which is still work in progress on both of them. That said, bzr does seem to handle the multiple repo's in a more user friendly manor? It is just a pity that there is NOT a single target solution for DVCS as everybody is currently scurrying off to their own corners :( The barriers have already been drawn rather then there being concensus on some sort of standard. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On Sat, 2010-11-27 at 16:26 +, Lester Caine wrote: At the end of the day however it probably has nothing to do with which DVCS is used for master copies. The interoperability now available does mean that we can safely ignore any 'choice' and simply use our own preference locally :) It will be the management of processes which are the main problem, something that is still outstanding anyway currently ... Agreed that most of them are pretty interoperable at this point. ** DISCLAIMER: I am an employee of Canonical, owners of Launchpad ** May I suggest bzr+launchpad as another alternative. MySQL has successfully migrated, and it would offer some real benefits to the process management. * Release and Milestone Management for bugs and specs (Blueprints) * Blueprints tied to milestones/releases (Blueprints == RFC's) * Powerful web based merge proposal management. * Branch aware bug management (bzr commit --fixes lp:1234567 bzr push automatically attaches the branch to the bug) I've not used git or hg much at all, but bzr has always satisfied my needs for DVCS, and has recently gotten much faster and more space efficient than it was in the past. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
The DVCS migration path would not have to be as radical as the path from cvs to svn. A single section of the overall svn repoistory can be migrated to a DVCS. This pilot repo would serve two purposes: determine if that DVCS is the correct choice and allow for a more gradual learning curve. Python is in the process of doing this with Mercurial: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0374/ - PEP 374: On switching to a DVCS http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0385/ - PEP 385: Migrating from svn to Mercurial There was talk of other alternatives to a DVCS too. Those should be considered fully as well. -- Herman Radtke hermanrad...@gmail.com | http://hermanradtke.com -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
Herman Radtke wrote: The DVCS migration path would not have to be as radical as the path from cvs to svn. A single section of the overall svn repoistory can be migrated to a DVCS. This pilot repo would serve two purposes: determine if that DVCS is the correct choice and allow for a more gradual learning curve. Python is in the process of doing this with Mercurial: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0374/ - PEP 374: On switching to a DVCS http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0385/ - PEP 385: Migrating from svn to Mercurial There was talk of other alternatives to a DVCS too. Those should be considered fully as well. While part of the reasoning behind going with Hg there was to do with the fact that Hg is heavily python based, it is useful to note that the secondary reason was the poor windows support, and apparent LACK of interest in git that swung the decision hg's way. At the end of the day however it probably has nothing to do with which DVCS is used for master copies. The interoperability now available does mean that we can safely ignore any 'choice' and simply use our own preference locally :) It will be the management of processes which are the main problem, something that is still outstanding anyway currently ... -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On Wed, 2010-11-24 at 21:46 -0800, Stas Malyshev wrote: However, there are a lot of practical challenges (auth, etc.) that need to be solved. I think one of the biggest issues is PHP extension handling. All ways for moving extensions in/out while keeping history are annoying. Doing all in sub-modules would be damn annoying ... that certainly needs evaluation before a switch. Other than that I really love git :-) johannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
I really like Git (much more than SVN actually) and I use it for all my projects, but I doubt moving to Git would solve anything. IMO even CVS was quite enough for our development model. On 11/25/2010 04:47 AM, Pierre Joye wrote: hi, We have moved not too long ago and for what I see it gave some opportunities to many of us to see what are the other tools on the market, git and github in particular. I think 99% of the active developers here are on github or use git in one way or another. I think git could be a great help, maintaining multiple branches will be easier. It will also be very useful to develop new complex features requiring a longer development period. SVN works fine but merging is very limited and buggy, maintaining a branch while syncing changes from trunk/other branches is a very frustrating experiences. Please not I'm not requesting to do it now and here, only trying to get a feeling/poll about git usage. Cheers, -- Wbr, Antony Dovgal --- http://pinba.org - realtime statistics for PHP -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
the branching/merging is much better, so if not anything, but could solve/make thing easier, especially if we decide to work with more branches (either for cherry picking, or multiple stable branches, for example the suggested lts method) On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 10:39 AM, Antony Dovgal t...@daylessday.org wrote: I really like Git (much more than SVN actually) and I use it for all my projects, but I doubt moving to Git would solve anything. IMO even CVS was quite enough for our development model. On 11/25/2010 04:47 AM, Pierre Joye wrote: hi, We have moved not too long ago and for what I see it gave some opportunities to many of us to see what are the other tools on the market, git and github in particular. I think 99% of the active developers here are on github or use git in one way or another. I think git could be a great help, maintaining multiple branches will be easier. It will also be very useful to develop new complex features requiring a longer development period. SVN works fine but merging is very limited and buggy, maintaining a branch while syncing changes from trunk/other branches is a very frustrating experiences. Please not I'm not requesting to do it now and here, only trying to get a feeling/poll about git usage. Cheers, -- Wbr, Antony Dovgal --- http://pinba.org - realtime statistics for PHP -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
GIT is realy nice! git merging magic!
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On 25/11/10 07:41, Lester Caine wrote: Patrick ALLAERT wrote: 2010/11/25 Lester Caineles...@lsces.co.uk: Have you used git on Windows Pierre ... It is a joke! Yes one can get it to work, but only if you do not use anything that the git cygwin install destroys! And as yet there is no consensus on getting it working cross platform in things like Eclipse. At least hg works out of the box on both linux and windows, but like git THAT does not properly support sub-repo's and makes managing nice modularly constructed projects like PHP almost impossible. Trying to work with projects that write modular PHP code in either git or hg is simply not currently practical ... especially when half of your user base is still tied to windows! Git on Windows problems belong to the past since a while now: * mSysGit Provide you don't use cygwin ALREADY on your machine !!! Install mSysGit and existing packages stop working ... While I don't use Windows, I do know that msysgit keeps things separate and shouldn't clobber your cygwin setup. Perhaps you have an issue with your path? The state of Git on Windows is, yes, far from perfect, but certainly improving. A quick search yields up some nice looking tools for Git on Windows: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/5-windows-git-clients-git-job/ SmartGit looks pretty good (non-commercial use). Git on Windows is not 100% friendly, but is workable. We have people using it everyday at work here. * TortoiseGit TortoiseHg does it RIGHT and works on both Linux and Windows. TortoiseGit does not work on Linux ... I use Linux and quite frankly I couldn't give a damn about things like Tortoise*. Such tools are nice enough for Windows where command prompt is so desperately useless, but they are no substitute for a real understanding of the command line interface of the SCM tool. I have a decent command prompt in Linux and it is a hell of a lot quicker (and, I would say, easier) to use. In short - I'm not sure why you're trying to slag off Git because TortoiseGit is no good for Linux. What is wrong with git-gui, gitk or gitg? Personally I run hg since I need cross platform capability for my customers, and hggit quite happily links to github but all of this has to be managed outside Eclipse since none of those tools work reliably. And we STILL have the problem of handling modular projects since neither do 'sub-repo' reliably. This area seems to be in a similar state of chaos to PHP with different factions all pushing their own agendas. Both git and hg are targeting compiled applications and ignore handing scripted applications like php, python, ruby and the like. 'You fix the problems when you build a project' simply does not work when you do not have anything to build! So while it may work for building PHP as a single program, a packaged distribution is a different matter. Ultimately I'm a +1 for Git. The proper branching/merging would solve so many issues that have been addressed recently on the mailing list regarding the pollution of trunk with incomplete and broken features, as well as BC breakage by feature removal... -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
Nick Pope wrote: Ultimately I'm a +1 for Git. The proper branching/merging would solve so many issues that have been addressed recently on the mailing list regarding the pollution of trunk with incomplete and broken features, as well as BC breakage by feature removal... I have been using Eclipse for development for several years, and PHPEclipse does everything I need. CVS and SVN simply work ... fully integrated ... and BeyondCompare handles all of the 'merge' problems that a simple update or manual merge has trouble with. For that reason I have never had a problem with 'merging'. Eclipse works transparently in linux and windows ... it is the reason that I started using it in the first place. I do not have to think 'linux ... commmand line'/'windows ... need something else' Neither GIT nor HG integration works with Eclipse so I have to drop outside Eclipse to handle picking up changes from github, and for HG, the graphics tools simply work transparently. BUT in reality the broken Eclipse in integration needs to be repaired if these projects are to really support a replacement of CVS and SVN. I have wasted weeks of possible real coding time trying to get git working for *ME* and I'm not going to spend any more until it is available as a working plugin for Eclipse. I AM using HG but simply as it was the only way to remain in touch with my main commercial activities since those developers forced a change to github. I would strongly agree with the statement that CVS is ideal for PHP since that at least has a working package management system which has worked for years. Managing merges is NOT a problem if you are used to tools which fix the problem, in much the same way as third party plugins already try to do in git and hg! Currently importing a CVS project into either git or hg creates an essentially unusable mess since the package management is no longer avialable. How do you combine a 200 package CVS project which gets mapped to 200 repos to create a single distributable project in ANY DVCS system? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On 25/11/10 10:14, Lester Caine wrote: Nick Pope wrote: Ultimately I'm a +1 for Git. The proper branching/merging would solve so many issues that have been addressed recently on the mailing list regarding the pollution of trunk with incomplete and broken features, as well as BC breakage by feature removal... I have been using Eclipse for development for several years, and PHPEclipse does everything I need. CVS and SVN simply work ... fully integrated ... and BeyondCompare handles all of the 'merge' problems that a simple update or manual merge has trouble with. For that reason I have never had a problem with 'merging'. I wasn't really referring to the diff tools like BeyondCompare. I was referring to having a SCM tool that does *proper* branching and merging. Git does, SVN really doesn't. Git is incredibly flexible when it comes to branching. It is also space efficient which is useful on large projects - a branch isn't a complete copy. Git is faster/distributed - doesn't require access to the remote repository to perform a diff/merge - useful if you are without network access. And generally operations are quick because they occur on blobs that contain just the changes rather than the entire source tree. Eclipse works transparently in linux and windows ... it is the reason that I started using it in the first place. I do not have to think 'linux ... commmand line'/'windows ... need something else' Fair enough regarding eclipse... I wasn't slamming it, I just don't use it. And I don't really find that lack of SCM integration in IDE is the end of the world. But if you are using msysgit which uses a bash shell for running command line Git... You don't have to think any different. Neither GIT nor HG integration works with Eclipse so I have to drop outside Eclipse to handle picking up changes from github, and for HG, the graphics tools simply work transparently. BUT in reality the broken Eclipse in integration needs to be repaired if these projects are to really support a replacement of CVS and SVN. I really couldn't make sense of this. Also - did you actually read my last reply? The link I sent you linked to this: http://www.eclipse.org/egit/ I've never used it. I can't vouch for it. But if that isn't some form of integration, I don't know what is. I have wasted weeks of possible real coding time trying to get git working for *ME* and I'm not going to spend any more until it is available as a working plugin for Eclipse. I AM using HG but simply as it was the only way to remain in touch with my main commercial activities since those developers forced a change to github. Fair enough. I just can't really see that there is that much of a problem with Git. It has rough edges on Windows as I've said in my last reply. Again - there is a plugin. I would strongly agree with the statement that CVS is ideal for PHP since that at least has a working package management system which has worked for years. Managing merges is NOT a problem if you are used to tools which fix the problem, in much the same way as third party plugins already try to do in git and hg! Currently importing a CVS project into either git or hg creates an essentially unusable mess since the package management is no longer avialable. How do you combine a 200 package CVS project which gets mapped to 200 repos to create a single distributable project in ANY DVCS system? Seriously? CVS is painful. Back when I first looked into SCM I brushed on it and skipped straight to SVN. Managing merges is NOT a problem if you are used to tools which fix the problem... That goes without saying for pretty much any SCM tool. ...in much the same way as third party plugins already try to do in git and hg! Third-party plugins?! That's news to me. I think you mean use of an external program that already handles diffs/merges. Why reinvent the wheel. And you were going on about BeyondCompare. Would that not be exactly the same. Currently importing a CVS project into either git or hg creates an essentially unusable mess... In my opinion it was in a mess in the first place... ...working package management system... I presume this is multiple projects in a single repository? Yes, Git doesn't have that. Again - it just sounds like a mess to me. I've never had to have a package management system in a SCM repository myself before, so I guess I cannot comment too strongly on this. However, submodules do work quite nicely. I won't pretend that they are a perfect solution in every case because the are tied by commit. Anyone who doesn't want the cruft can ignore them. The PHP repository could probably do with some level of segmentation anyway - it is one giant monolithic beast at the moment. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: ( And installing msysgit broke ssh access to my customer sites from the windows box. A couple of days working on fixing that produced no solution, while simply un-installing it restored all of the broken functionality. It was a few months ago, but I don't believe anything ha changed so I will not be wasting time on it until someone says that msysgit is now working with an existing putty/secure key setup ... What I have has worked for years and git broke it! ) As this is off topic, the question is about using git for php.net, not really about how to do break a windows setup :) I use cygwin, msys, msysgit (separate install) and putty on the same machines, without any special issues. Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On 25/11/10 11:47, Lester Caine wrote: Nick Pope wrote: I really couldn't make sense of this. Also - did you actually read my last reply? The link I sent you linked to this: http://www.eclipse.org/egit/ I've never used it. I can't vouch for it. But if that isn't some form of integration, I don't know what is. Please check fact before posting 'solutions' ... egit does not ACTUALLY fully work hence the main reason it is still an incubation project. The main problem is that jgit on which it is based does not current support sub-repo, and as soon as there is a sub-repo in the target then nothing works! Granted it doesn't *fully* work. You said Neither GIT nor HG integration works with Eclipse... and I disagreed. You just told me that it doesn't fully work. Thus it must do to some extent... What you mean is that it currently doesn't work for you. ... and I'm not going to spend any more until it is available as a working plugin for Eclipse. That is fine - I'd just use the command line and be done with it to be honest. I never found even the SVN eclipse integration to be all that wonderful either. Each to their own. ...working package management system... I presume this is multiple projects in a single repository? Yes, Git doesn't have that. Again - it just sounds like a mess to me. I've never had to have a package management system in a SCM repository myself before, so I guess I cannot comment too strongly on this. However, submodules do work quite nicely. I won't pretend that they are a perfect solution in every case because the are tied by commit. Anyone who doesn't want the cruft can ignore them. The PHP repository could probably do with some level of segmentation anyway - it is one giant monolithic beast at the moment. sub-repo STILL needs work to allow a SINGLE download of a clone complex repo. PHP is a number of packages which combine to provide a single distribution, and packages can be added as required. It is not a single monolithic beast. Either the whole modular setup is imported into a single git repo, or each package has it's own repo. It is THEN that the holes in sub-repo management become a problem! I said that the SVN repository is just a single glob of everything: PHP, PECL stuff, etc... ( And installing msysgit broke ssh access to my customer sites from the windows box. A couple of days working on fixing that produced no solution, while simply un-installing it restored all of the broken functionality. It was a few months ago, but I don't believe anything ha changed so I will not be wasting time on it until someone says that msysgit is now working with an existing putty/secure key setup ... What I have has worked for years and git broke it! ) Uhh... I can tell you now that msysgit and putty are fine together... With public keys. Because my colleagues use it every day. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On 25/11/10 12:22, Pierre Joye wrote: On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 12:47 PM, Lester Caineles...@lsces.co.uk wrote: ( And installing msysgit broke ssh access to my customer sites from the windows box. A couple of days working on fixing that produced no solution, while simply un-installing it restored all of the broken functionality. It was a few months ago, but I don't believe anything ha changed so I will not be wasting time on it until someone says that msysgit is now working with an existing putty/secure key setup ... What I have has worked for years and git broke it! ) As this is off topic, the question is about using git for php.net, not really about how to do break a windows setup :) I use cygwin, msys, msysgit (separate install) and putty on the same machines, without any special issues. Cheers, Agreed. Sorry. Was just trying to say that I really don't think that support for Windows is an issue. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On Thu, 25 Nov 2010, Pierre Joye wrote: We have moved not too long ago and for what I see it gave some opportunities to many of us to see what are the other tools on the market, git and github in particular. I think 99% of the active developers here are on github or use git in one way or another. Before even talking about git; the discussion should focus on whether we want DVCS. There are other things out there beside gits, which are not that difficult to use and provide just as much functionality. Please not I'm not requesting to do it now and here, only trying to get a feeling/poll about git usage. I am not in favour; I will repeat what I just wrote to Davey: DVCS is also a lot more egocentric thing, instead of collaboration. You want your stuff exposed to as many developers as possible instead of walled gardens. It might be easy enough to share, but discovery is a lot harder. Derick -- http://derickrethans.nl | http://xdebug.org Like Xdebug? Consider a donation: http://xdebug.org/donate.php twitter: @derickr and @xdebug -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
Derick Rethans wrote: On Thu, 25 Nov 2010, Pierre Joye wrote: We have moved not too long ago and for what I see it gave some opportunities to many of us to see what are the other tools on the market, git and github in particular. I think 99% of the active developers here are on github or use git in one way or another. Before even talking about git; the discussion should focus on whether we want DVCS. There are other things out there beside gits, which are not that difficult to use and provide just as much functionality. Please not I'm not requesting to do it now and here, only trying to get a feeling/poll about git usage. I am not in favour; I will repeat what I just wrote to Davey: DVCS is also a lot more egocentric thing, instead of collaboration. You want your stuff exposed to as many developers as possible instead of walled gardens. It might be easy enough to share, but discovery is a lot harder. Ignoring the problems of actually using github I think this is exactly the problem we are finding with those projects that have pushed over to git. MANAGING what is allowed back into some master copy of the code base is the bit that is a lot more difficult than with current arrangements. The result is several versions of the same projects simply because people are doing their own things and then nobody knows which version to pull from. The release manager has to un-pick what should be merged and even on a small project this is time consuming. If everybody with their own agenda for PHP starts doing their own builds we will end up with even more branches since they will just be publishing them ;) -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On 25 November 2010 07:16, Patrick ALLAERT patrickalla...@php.net wrote: TortoiseGit So, I now have TortoiseCVS, TortoiseSVN _and_ TortoiseGit. Gee! My windows is slow enough ... now I'm pulling along 3 tortoises. -- Richard Quadling Twitter : EE : Zend @RQuadling : e-e.com/M_248814.html : bit.ly/9O8vFY -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Derick Rethans wrote: On Thu, 25 Nov 2010, Pierre Joye wrote: We have moved not too long ago and for what I see it gave some opportunities to many of us to see what are the other tools on the market, git and github in particular. I think 99% of the active developers here are on github or use git in one way or another. Before even talking about git; the discussion should focus on whether we want DVCS. There are other things out there beside gits, which are not that difficult to use and provide just as much functionality. Please not I'm not requesting to do it now and here, only trying to get a feeling/poll about git usage. I am not in favour; I will repeat what I just wrote to Davey: DVCS is also a lot more egocentric thing, instead of collaboration. You want your stuff exposed to as many developers as possible instead of walled gardens. It might be easy enough to share, but discovery is a lot harder. Ignoring the problems of actually using github I think this is exactly the problem we are finding with those projects that have pushed over to git. MANAGING what is allowed back into some master copy of the code base is the bit that is a lot more difficult than with current arrangements. The result is several versions of the same projects simply because people are doing their own things and then nobody knows which version to pull from. The release manager has to un-pick what should be merged and even on a small project this is time consuming. If everybody with their own agenda for PHP starts doing their own builds we will end up with even more branches since they will just be publishing them ;) http://progit.org/book/ch5-1.html I think we could go with either an Integration Manager kind of workflow, or with the Dictator and Lieutenants (that is used for the linux development). either way, with good merging tools, the integrations isn't such of a problem. my 2 cents.
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On Thu, 25 Nov 2010, Ferenc Kovacs wrote: On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Derick Rethans wrote: On Thu, 25 Nov 2010, Pierre Joye wrote: Please not I'm not requesting to do it now and here, only trying to get a feeling/poll about git usage. I am not in favour; I will repeat what I just wrote to Davey: DVCS is also a lot more egocentric thing, instead of collaboration. You want your stuff exposed to as many developers as possible instead of walled gardens. It might be easy enough to share, but discovery is a lot harder. Ignoring the problems of actually using github I think this is exactly the problem we are finding with those projects that have pushed over to git. MANAGING what is allowed back into some master copy of the code base is the bit that is a lot more difficult than with current arrangements. The result is several versions of the same projects simply because people are doing their own things and then nobody knows which version to pull from. The release manager has to un-pick what should be merged and even on a small project this is time consuming. If everybody with their own agenda for PHP starts doing their own builds we will end up with even more branches since they will just be publishing them ;) http://progit.org/book/ch5-1.html I think we could go with either an Integration Manager kind of workflow, or with the Dictator and Lieutenants (that is used for the linux development). either way, with good merging tools, the integrations isn't such of a problem. Whatever workflow we prefer is not what is guaranteed to happen. I agree totally with Lester here. DVCS fragments the development team. cheers, Derick -- http://derickrethans.nl | http://xdebug.org Like Xdebug? Consider a donation: http://xdebug.org/donate.php twitter: @derickr and @xdebug -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On Wed, 24 Nov 2010, Philip Olson wrote: Please not I'm not requesting to do it now and here, only trying to get a feeling/poll about git usage. The main reasons we moved to SVN and not Git include: - Less of a learning curve, because SVN is like CVS - Most of the CVS-SVN work was already finished - A few old timers didn't want us using Git - We aren't sure how the authentication/karma system would work Most people wanted (and still want) to move to Git, but moving to SVN was a simpler process. Any proposal towards Git should include how it'd work. Also, Github (yes or no) is another part of this. Git is *not* the only DVCS either! The others (mercurial, bazaar) should also be looked at. cheers, Derick -- http://derickrethans.nl | http://xdebug.org Like Xdebug? Consider a donation: http://xdebug.org/donate.php twitter: @derickr and @xdebug -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
I am not in favour; I will repeat what I just wrote to Davey: DVCS is also a lot more egocentric thing, instead of collaboration. You want your stuff exposed to as many developers as possible instead of walled gardens. It might be easy enough to share, but discovery is a lot harder. Developers can already wall themselves off now with the github mirror. Also, taking a peak at the linux dev mailing list I see lots of collaboration going on. It makes sense that a developer wanting to discuss a new feature or patch will push that branch to origin. What a DVCS does allow for are branches for each specific project/patch and incremental commits within that branch. That keeps project/patch commits together and also side-steps the entire issue of cherry-picking. At work we use git and usually have 6 project branches with competing and interweaving timeframes. Each developer has upwards of 50 branches local to them (heck I recently had 105 until I did some cleaning yesterday) that feed the project branches. We manage this with very few problems and is not something we could do with cvs or svn. Ignoring the problems of actually using github I think this is exactly the problem we are finding with those projects that have pushed over to git. MANAGING what is allowed back into some master copy of the code base is the bit that is a lot more difficult than with current arrangements. The result is several versions of the same projects simply because people are doing their own things and then nobody knows which version to pull from. The release manager has to un-pick what should be merged and even on a small project this is time consuming. If everybody with their own agenda for PHP starts doing their own builds we will end up with even more branches since they will just be publishing them ;) http://progit.org/book/ch5-1.html I think we could go with either an Integration Manager kind of workflow, or with the Dictator and Lieutenants (that is used for the linux development). either way, with good merging tools, the integrations isn't such of a problem. Whatever workflow we prefer is not what is guaranteed to happen. I agree totally with Lester here. DVCS fragments the development team. DVCS does not cause fragmentation. DVCS is a tool. How a development team uses that tool is up to them. I don't think anyone seriously considering a migration to git is thinking that there are no problems. However, the problems Lester is describing are similar to the problems we have now: people checked in all kinds of changes to trunk and nobody knows how to pick them apart to make a stable build. In my experience, managing DVCS is less work than managing cvs/svn. Sure, individuals and entire development teams can shoot themselves in the foot if they use DVCS incorrectly. But, I would rather use a sharp tool (like git) than a dull one (like svn). -- Herman Radtke hermanrad...@gmail.com | http://hermanradtke.com -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 16:28, Herman Radtke hermanrad...@gmail.com wrote: I am not in favour; I will repeat what I just wrote to Davey: DVCS is also a lot more egocentric thing, instead of collaboration. You want your stuff exposed to as many developers as possible instead of walled gardens. It might be easy enough to share, but discovery is a lot harder. Developers can already wall themselves off now with the github mirror. No. People. Stop saying that. It simply isn't true. The 'github mirror' hasn't been active for 6months. It got killed because our box simply couldn't handle the job. -Hannes -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On 2010-11-25, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote: On Thu, 25 Nov 2010, Pierre Joye wrote: We have moved not too long ago and for what I see it gave some opportunities to many of us to see what are the other tools on the market, git and github in particular. I think 99% of the active developers here are on github or use git in one way or another. Before even talking about git; the discussion should focus on whether we want DVCS. There are other things out there beside gits, which are not that difficult to use and provide just as much functionality. Actually, this is the right question... but there's another option. Offer PHP via as many VCS systems as possible. A number of Apache projects do this, and have ways to keep the various systems in sync. This would offer the most flexibility, as well as appease the largest number of developers. Please not I'm not requesting to do it now and here, only trying to get a feeling/poll about git usage. I am not in favour; I will repeat what I just wrote to Davey: DVCS is also a lot more egocentric thing, instead of collaboration. That's a pretty broad generalization, and one I've *never* heard voiced before. I've actually found exactly the opposite -- DVCS tends to be more democratic (developers can create and maintain features and share them easily), and less egocentric (DVCS developers are more willing to share and cherry-pick than in projects with centralized control). Can you please qualify the above statement. You want your stuff exposed to as many developers as possible instead of walled gardens. How is SVN not just another such walled garden? It might be easy enough to share, but discovery is a lot harder. Perhaps. But that's what mailing lists, issue trackers, and blogs are for. I've had very little issue with discovery, to be honest. -- Matthew Weier O'Phinney Project Lead| matt...@zend.com Zend Framework | http://framework.zend.com/ PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On 2010-11-25, Andi Gutmans a...@zend.com wrote: -Original Message- From: Pierre Joye [mailto:pierre@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 5:47 PM To: PHP internals Subject: [PHP-DEV] git anyone? We have moved not too long ago and for what I see it gave some opportunities to many of us to see what are the other tools on the market, git and github in particular. I think 99% of the active developers here are on github or use git in one way or another. I think git could be a great help, maintaining multiple branches will be easier. It will also be very useful to develop new complex features requiring a longer development period. SVN works fine but merging is very limited and buggy, maintaining a branch while syncing changes from trunk/other branches is a very frustrating experiences. Please not I'm not requesting to do it now and here, only trying to get a feeling/poll about git usage. I personally doubt moving will have a material positive impact on the project. I wouldn't particularly mind if all the issues were addressed but I wouldn't hold my breath that it will be game changing. It may be better to invest the effort elsewhere. I disagree here, actually. It's much easier to handle feature isolation using git, as you can do these in separate branches -- perhaps not even on the canonical repo! -- and later merge them in when they are ready. Additionally, keeping multiple branches up-to-date is much, much simpler. With ZF, I've found that merging in even months worth of changes from the ZF1 trunk to ZF2 master is often a matter of hours; with SVN, this process was so daunting, we simply wouldn't do it in favor of creating new branches and starting over. -- Matthew Weier O'Phinney Project Lead| matt...@zend.com Zend Framework | http://framework.zend.com/ PGP key: http://framework.zend.com/zf-matthew-pgp-key.asc -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 5:54 PM, Matthew Weier O'Phinney weierophin...@php.net wrote: It might be easy enough to share, but discovery is a lot harder. Perhaps. But that's what mailing lists, issue trackers, and blogs are for. I've had very little issue with discovery, to be honest. And www.php.net, that's exactly what is meant in the release management RFC, under the feature preview release. rmtools.php.net can also be easily adapted to fetch src from git and the build bots will work just fine as well. Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
Developers can already wall themselves off now with the github mirror. No. People. Stop saying that. It simply isn't true. The 'github mirror' hasn't been active for 6months. It got killed because our box simply couldn't handle the job. My mistake. The github mirror really isn't the point thought. The point is that anyone can use git-svn to make a git repo of PHP source and isolate themselves. -- Herman Radtke hermanrad...@gmail.com | http://hermanradtke.com -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On 2010-11-25, Herman Radtke hermanrad...@gmail.com wrote: Developers can already wall themselves off now with the github mirror. No. People. Stop saying that. It simply isn't true. The 'github mirror' hasn't been active for 6months. It got killed because our box simply couldn't handle the job. My mistake. The github mirror really isn't the point thought. The point is that anyone can use git-svn to make a git repo of PHP source and isolate themselves. Nope you cannot. We forbid total git-svn clones as they put too much traffic on the svn server. You can run a shallow clone, but either way you will have a hard time merging and using all the nice DVCS features together when you use git-svn. git-svn is more a local svn with local feature branches than a full blown git. -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
As much as i might not have enough Karma to vote, being only involved in tests, but i think git would be a great fit. I agree with Phillip that we need to address the issues mentioned before if we want to move over, but our community includes guys like Travis Swicegood, who quite literally wrote the book on Git, i'm sure we can count on his help to aid us in sorting those out. I'm a +1 if we have also docs and usage examples to help the learning curve of git beginners. -- Rafael Dohms PHP Evangelist and Community Leader http://www.rafaeldohms.com.br http://www.phpsp.org.br -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP-DEV] git anyone?
hi, We have moved not too long ago and for what I see it gave some opportunities to many of us to see what are the other tools on the market, git and github in particular. I think 99% of the active developers here are on github or use git in one way or another. I think git could be a great help, maintaining multiple branches will be easier. It will also be very useful to develop new complex features requiring a longer development period. SVN works fine but merging is very limited and buggy, maintaining a branch while syncing changes from trunk/other branches is a very frustrating experiences. Please not I'm not requesting to do it now and here, only trying to get a feeling/poll about git usage. Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 20:47, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: hi, [snip] Please not I'm not requesting to do it now and here, only trying to get a feeling/poll about git usage. You might recall several conversations on this during the period where Gwynne was migrating us from CVS to SVN in 2008/09. Two two threads that stand out most in my mind were Rasmus' thoughts on the matter[1] and David Soria Parra actually working toward using git --- or at least git-svn[2]. There were several other threads on the subject as well, so unless opinions have changed, you may already have some folks in your corner. ^1: http://news.php.net/svn.migration/255 ^2: http://news.php.net/php.internals/44942 -- /Daniel P. Brown -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On 25 November 2010 09:47, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: Please not I'm not requesting to do it now and here, only trying to get a feeling/poll about git usage. I would be +1 on this, where 1 is the biggest 1 possible without it becoming 2. :) git-svn is a reasonable alternative for smaller repositories and projects (I use it at work on a daily basis to deal with older projects that we haven't migrated to git), but the PHP repository is difficult to use effectively with it, since it (in my experience, at least) requires a checkout of every revision for proper handling of branches and tags. git-svn also imposes some restrictions on developer workflow which aren't insurmountable, but do limit what you can do relative to a real git repository. So, in short, I'd love to see us move to git. Adam -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On Wednesday, November 24, 2010 8:12:25 pm Daniel Brown wrote: On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 20:47, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote: hi, [snip] Please not I'm not requesting to do it now and here, only trying to get a feeling/poll about git usage. You might recall several conversations on this during the period where Gwynne was migrating us from CVS to SVN in 2008/09. Two two threads that stand out most in my mind were Rasmus' thoughts on the matter[1] and David Soria Parra actually working toward using git --- or at least git-svn[2]. There were several other threads on the subject as well, so unless opinions have changed, you may already have some folks in your corner. ^1: http://news.php.net/svn.migration/255 ^2: http://news.php.net/php.internals/44942 FWIW, the KDE project migrated from CVS to SVN a few years ago and is now in the process of migrating to Git following numerous KDE projects moving to Github of their own accord. They're doing a piece-meal approach with projects migrating bit by bit. I believe they are hosting their own Git setup but I'm not certain of that. The Drupal project skipped SVN entirely and is currently in the process of migrating our entire infrastructure from CVS to Git, which we will be self- hosting. Numerous Drupal projects were already migrating to Github and we decided, basically, CVS sucks and people are voting with their feet for Git. We opted to setup our own Git infrastructure rather than use GitHub's because our development toolchain is very tightly coupled with our version control system and issue queue history, and we wanted to retain that. We couldn't do that on Github, but building our own we could. A nice side-effect of this process (in progress as we speak) is a number of more generic tools (many Drupal-based, I grant) for version control handling, particularly Git. By the time we're done (hopefully late Q1 2011) we should have a number of people who know a disturbing amount about Git and Git-PHP, and I suspect many could be coaxed to at least provide advise and consultation if not actual labor. (I am not one of those people so I can't speak for them, but I would certainly be willing to poke and prod people into offering what help they can. g) Having been an SVN fan for a long time, I must say I am *really* liking working with Git for the past year or so on various projects. --Larry Garfield -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
Please not I'm not requesting to do it now and here, only trying to get a feeling/poll about git usage. The main reasons we moved to SVN and not Git include: - Less of a learning curve, because SVN is like CVS - Most of the CVS-SVN work was already finished - A few old timers didn't want us using Git - We aren't sure how the authentication/karma system would work Most people wanted (and still want) to move to Git, but moving to SVN was a simpler process. Any proposal towards Git should include how it'd work. Also, Github (yes or no) is another part of this. Regards, Philip -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
Hi! We have moved not too long ago and for what I see it gave some opportunities to many of us to see what are the other tools on the market, git and github in particular. I think 99% of the active developers here are on github or use git in one way or another. My personal experience is that git runs circles around svn when it comes to merging and branching, etc. There's some learning curve but you can get used to it in less than a month. However, there are a lot of practical challenges (auth, etc.) that need to be solved. I personally wouldn't mind using git but we need to find a brave soul that would agree to figure out all the challenges. As for now, we already have github mirror, so maybe private needs can be served by it... -- Stanislav Malyshev, Software Architect SugarCRM: http://www.sugarcrm.com/ (408)454-6900 ext. 227 -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
-Original Message- From: Pierre Joye [mailto:pierre@gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 5:47 PM To: PHP internals Subject: [PHP-DEV] git anyone? hi, We have moved not too long ago and for what I see it gave some opportunities to many of us to see what are the other tools on the market, git and github in particular. I think 99% of the active developers here are on github or use git in one way or another. I think git could be a great help, maintaining multiple branches will be easier. It will also be very useful to develop new complex features requiring a longer development period. SVN works fine but merging is very limited and buggy, maintaining a branch while syncing changes from trunk/other branches is a very frustrating experiences. Please not I'm not requesting to do it now and here, only trying to get a feeling/poll about git usage. I personally doubt moving will have a material positive impact on the project. I wouldn't particularly mind if all the issues were addressed but I wouldn't hold my breath that it will be game changing. It may be better to invest the effort elsewhere. Andi -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
Pierre Joye wrote: Please not I'm not requesting to do it now and here, only trying to get a feeling/poll about git usage. Have you used git on Windows Pierre ... It is a joke! Yes one can get it to work, but only if you do not use anything that the git cygwin install destroys! And as yet there is no consensus on getting it working cross platform in things like Eclipse. At least hg works out of the box on both linux and windows, but like git THAT does not properly support sub-repo's and makes managing nice modularly constructed projects like PHP almost impossible. Trying to work with projects that write modular PHP code in either git or hg is simply not currently practical ... especially when half of your user base is still tied to windows! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 8:06 AM, Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk wrote: Pierre Joye wrote: Please not I'm not requesting to do it now and here, only trying to get a feeling/poll about git usage. Have you used git on Windows Pierre ... It is a joke! I'm pretty sure, that Pierre uses windows on his desktop. :) Tyrael
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
2010/11/25 Lester Caine les...@lsces.co.uk: Have you used git on Windows Pierre ... It is a joke! Yes one can get it to work, but only if you do not use anything that the git cygwin install destroys! And as yet there is no consensus on getting it working cross platform in things like Eclipse. At least hg works out of the box on both linux and windows, but like git THAT does not properly support sub-repo's and makes managing nice modularly constructed projects like PHP almost impossible. Trying to work with projects that write modular PHP code in either git or hg is simply not currently practical ... especially when half of your user base is still tied to windows! Git on Windows problems belong to the past since a while now: * mSysGit * TortoiseGit -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
2010/11/25 Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com: hi, We have moved not too long ago and for what I see it gave some opportunities to many of us to see what are the other tools on the market, git and github in particular. I think 99% of the active developers here are on github or use git in one way or another. I think git could be a great help, maintaining multiple branches will be easier. It will also be very useful to develop new complex features requiring a longer development period. SVN works fine but merging is very limited and buggy, maintaining a branch while syncing changes from trunk/other branches is a very frustrating experiences. Please not I'm not requesting to do it now and here, only trying to get a feeling/poll about git usage. Cheers, -- Pierre @pierrejoye | http://blog.thepimp.net | http://www.libgd.org Definetely a big +1. But you don't want us to be geeky early adopters, do you? Let's wait everybody else did the svn-git migration before us like we always did :) -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP-DEV] git anyone?
Patrick ALLAERT wrote: 2010/11/25 Lester Caineles...@lsces.co.uk: Have you used git on Windows Pierre ... It is a joke! Yes one can get it to work, but only if you do not use anything that the git cygwin install destroys! And as yet there is no consensus on getting it working cross platform in things like Eclipse. At least hg works out of the box on both linux and windows, but like git THAT does not properly support sub-repo's and makes managing nice modularly constructed projects like PHP almost impossible. Trying to work with projects that write modular PHP code in either git or hg is simply not currently practical ... especially when half of your user base is still tied to windows! Git on Windows problems belong to the past since a while now: * mSysGit Provide you don't use cygwin ALREADY on your machine !!! Install mSysGit and existing packages stop working ... * TortoiseGit TortoiseHg does it RIGHT and works on both Linux and Windows. TortoiseGit does not work on Linux ... Personally I run hg since I need cross platform capability for my customers, and hggit quite happily links to github but all of this has to be managed outside Eclipse since none of those tools work reliably. And we STILL have the problem of handling modular projects since neither do 'sub-repo' reliably. This area seems to be in a similar state of chaos to PHP with different factions all pushing their own agendas. Both git and hg are targeting compiled applications and ignore handing scripted applications like php, python, ruby and the like. 'You fix the problems when you build a project' simply does not work when you do not have anything to build! So while it may work for building PHP as a single program, a packaged distribution is a different matter. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk// Firebird - http://www.firebirdsql.org/index.php -- PHP Internals - PHP Runtime Development Mailing List To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
