[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-24 Thread bob
why, it reformats your hard drive On Oct 23, 6:17 pm, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: But if you name your method: ashiuahsdyasdasd what does it do? On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 9:47 PM, bob rbpas...@gmail.com wrote: I'll repeat: there are no operators in scala

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-24 Thread Viktor Klang
On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 8:18 PM, bob rbpas...@gmail.com wrote: why, it reformats your hard drive oh snap On Oct 23, 6:17 pm, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.com wrote: But if you name your method: ashiuahsdyasdasd what does it do? On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 9:47 PM, bob

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-24 Thread Randinn
Scala is not like, for example, BASIC, where you can look up FOR, IF/ THEN/ELSE. there's lots of individual and compound punctuation marks that are very difficult to search for online and in PDFs (try searching for !). This is where I am coming from, coding after a 16 or so year hiatus

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-24 Thread Randinn
This may not be it, but you can at least print out this list :) http://jim-mcbeath.blogspot.com/2008/12/scala-operator-cheat-sheet.html On Oct 24, 6:47 am, bob rbpas...@gmail.com wrote: I'll repeat: there are no operators in scala s/operators/methods-with-operator-like-names/ anywhere,

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-24 Thread bob
seriously, if you're suggesting that since function/method names don't have to have any relationship to the algorithm therein, so using punctuation should be fine, then why not just use single letters, followed by an optional digit, and be done. `When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-24 Thread bob
is that for Scala or Perl? :) On Oct 24, 4:49 pm, Randinn rand...@gmail.com wrote: This may not be it, but you can at least print out this list :) http://jim-mcbeath.blogspot.com/2008/12/scala-operator-cheat-sheet.html On Oct 24, 6:47 am, bob rbpas...@gmail.com wrote: I'll repeat:

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread jlist9
Ross, Personally I think that Python is great for small simple things, but as soon as you start to scale the lack of statically checked guarantees starts to bite you. What you said about the problems with dynamically typed scripting language is very true. Python is so powerful but the code

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread Ross Mellgren
On Oct 23, 2009, at 2:31 AM, jlist9 wrote: Regarding () and {} BTW, you can replace a single-argument argument list with {}, e.g. def myFunction(a: String): Unit = println(a) myFunction(foobar) myFunction { foobar } I find the following three lines of code do the same thing. Thanks for

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread Jonas Bonér
I love the _ operator. 2009/10/22 Timothy Perrett timo...@getintheloop.eu: I think this is a bit of a running joke in the scala comunity right now - your right, underscore really does have a number of meanings; I think this will be changed in some future Scala release. Your also

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread Joni Freeman
I love it too. While it is used in many different places it always means stuff that I do not care to name. BTW. high priest of the lambda calculus loves it too :) It has its roots in Haskell...

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread Viktor Klang
My personal interpretation is sh!t I don't know here or don't care what it is On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 9:08 AM, Joni Freeman freeman.j...@gmail.comwrote: I love it too. While it is used in many different places it always means stuff that I do not care to name. BTW. high priest of the lambda

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread Chris Lewis
I *think* you're referring to a thread I started some time ago: http://www.nabble.com/functional-newbie,-domain-entities-td22957479.html It turned out to be a lively discussion. On a related note, Jonas Boner gisted this in August: http://gist.github.com/173921 It's not full code, but it

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread Jeremy Day
All, the _ name is also used frequently in C++ for template-based lambdas. At least it is in many of the Boost libraries. Jeremy On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 2:37 AM, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.comwrote: My personal interpretation is sh!t I don't know here or don't care what it is On

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread bob
i believe that one of the best ways to learn a new programming language is to read software written in it when reading Scala code, I rarely say i don't understand how that works and when I do, there's usually a good explanation of it somewhere on the web. usually I find myself asking where is

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread Chris Lewis
bob wrote: i believe that one of the best ways to learn a new programming language is to read software written in it when reading Scala code, I rarely say i don't understand how that works and when I do, there's usually a good explanation of it somewhere on the web. usually I find

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread Chris Lewis
My head just exploded. Twice. ngocdaothanh wrote: Because Lift's ad is so good. *boom* For example: Lift is the only new framework in the last four years to offer fresh and innovative approaches to web development. It's not just some incremental improvements over the status quo, it

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread Jim Barrows
On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Chris Lewis burningodzi...@gmail.comwrote: My head just exploded. Twice. That explains the wet face this morning when I woke up... thought it was the dog licking it... :) ngocdaothanh wrote: Because Lift's ad is so good. *boom* It was good. My first

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread David Pollak
On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 9:29 AM, Jim Barrows jim.barr...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 9:15 AM, Chris Lewis burningodzi...@gmail.comwrote: My head just exploded. Twice. That explains the wet face this morning when I woke up... thought it was the dog licking it... :)

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread jlist9
It's often hard to describe some (I'd say most) of the Scala syntax if you want to search for an answer online. It would be great if the eclipse plugin can tell you what the code is trying to do and what kind of syntax is that, for example, linking an operator back to a method name. On Fri, Oct

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread Chris Lewis
jlist9 wrote: It's often hard to describe some (I'd say most) of the Scala syntax if you want to search for an answer online. I can't relate with that. I've been coding scala for 3-4 months, and I've never had any problem finding method definitions. Most of this probably had to do with

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread bob
I'll repeat: there are no operators in scala s/operators/methods-with-operator-like-names/ anywhere, here's a typical case: import some.library.package.foo._ val a = bar 42 val b = a ~!~ 3.14159 you can't easily tell that bar is being imported via foo._ . what is bar's return type? what does

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread Viktor Klang
But if you name your method: ashiuahsdyasdasd what does it do? On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 9:47 PM, bob rbpas...@gmail.com wrote: I'll repeat: there are no operators in scala s/operators/methods-with-operator-like-names/ anywhere, here's a typical case: import some.library.package.foo._

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread Jim Barrows
On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.comwrote: But if you name your method: ashiuahsdyasdasd what does it do? Oh Bloddy Ell... that caused Cthulu to appear on my keyboard when I read it On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 9:47 PM, bob rbpas...@gmail.com wrote: I'll

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread Viktor Klang
On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 12:23 AM, Jim Barrows jim.barr...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.comwrote: But if you name your method: ashiuahsdyasdasd what does it do? Oh Bloddy Ell... that caused Cthulu to appear on my keyboard when I read

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-23 Thread Jim Barrows
On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 3:28 PM, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.comwrote: On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 12:23 AM, Jim Barrows jim.barr...@gmail.comwrote: On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 3:17 PM, Viktor Klang viktor.kl...@gmail.comwrote: But if you name your method: ashiuahsdyasdasd what does it do? Oh

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread ngocdaothanh
jlist9, This is a Lift group, but I have to say I feel the same about Scala. I had to ask for advice here: http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb/browse_thread/thread/a588f997af842f93/60c378bb36d26030 Scala may help me to get my work done for the day. But I don't feel happy with Scala. Scala

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread TylerWeir
On Oct 22, 2:02 am, ngocdaothanh ngocdaoth...@gmail.com wrote: jlist9, This is a Lift group, but I have to say I feel the same about Scala. I had to ask for advice here:http://groups.google.com/group/liftweb/browse_thread/thread/a588f997a... Scala may help me to get my work done for the

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread Viktor Klang
Programming is not a simple task, that's why we haven't been replaced by machines. Scala is a _very_ powerful language, and it _is_ a challenge to harness that power in addition to other languagues you have harnessed. However, I do not feel that Scala has much non-explainable complexity, as is

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread Timothy Perrett
Guys, Im confused - Scala is not Java. This my friends, is a very good thing. You cant expect to start a language and be able to use all the advanced features right away I doubt you were a meta-programming ninja when learning ruby! Getting back on topic, I read the original link and

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread ngocdaothanh
Because Lift's ad is so good. For example: Lift is the only new framework in the last four years to offer fresh and innovative approaches to web development. It's not just some incremental improvements over the status quo, it redefines the state of the art. If you are a web developer, you should

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread Marius
+1 Tim Viktor. Many people with this sort of background and Java web frameworks too find difficult to accept that we don't do MVC. Also they find difficult to accepts XML in Scala Snippets. When I presented Scala Lift at Transylvania JUG I got the same concerns ... What? ... markup in Scala

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread Timothy Perrett
Well said that man! Couldn't agree more with this statement. Cheers, Tim On Oct 22, 9:43 am, Marius marius.dan...@gmail.com wrote: I accept that many people think that MVC is the Holly Grail, but I don't believe that ... and I think most people really using Lift don't believe that either.

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread tiro
override def validations = validPriority _ :: super.validations funny, I had stumbled on exactly the same line of code when beginning. Took me more than a day to understand what's going on. Especially because when you copied code from the PDF version of the Liftbook/Lift getting started guide,

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread Timothy Perrett
I think this is a bit of a running joke in the scala comunity right now - your right, underscore really does have a number of meanings; I think this will be changed in some future Scala release. Your also forgetting: import some.package._ Cheers, Tim On 22 Oct 2009, at 12:57, tiro wrote:

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread jlist9
Yes. Typically one will only see a couple of Java-y Scala samples in the tutorials to show that you can write Scala the Java way to encourage Java developers to pick up Scala. However, in any real world applications and libraries you'll only see Scala-y Scala and that's where the disconnect is.

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread David Pollak
I've drafted a couple of different versions of a response to this message and they all seem somewhat mean and/or condescending... that is not at all my intent... here's another draft and please read it as acknowledging the challenges you are articulating, but suggesting a different perspective on

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread Timothy Perrett
David, I think your response was well measured and appropriate. The analogy of linguistics is a good one :-) Without wanting to diverge this thread, can I ask why it is your unhappy with Record? Its been fairly fun to use so far and appears to work well. Cheers, Tim On 22 Oct 2009, at

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread David Pollak
On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Timothy Perrett timo...@getintheloop.euwrote: David, I think your response was well measured and appropriate. The analogy of linguistics is a good one :-) Without wanting to diverge this thread, can I ask why it is your unhappy with Record? Its been fairly

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread Timothy Perrett
Right, no one likes mutable anything :-) I kinda wondered why you haven't pushed forward any more with the current record implementation... can one assume that is why - because it didn't feel right? Some of this stuff is going to be fundamental to how we move forward - id love to perhaps

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread Jim Barrows
On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 9:22 AM, David Pollak feeder.of.the.be...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 9:18 AM, Timothy Perrett timo...@getintheloop.euwrote: David, I think your response was well measured and appropriate. The analogy of linguistics is a good one :-) Without

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread Raoul Duke
hi, i take issue with the following: misunderstood. They are NOT controllers .. they are simple constructs to allow dynamic markup to be injected in the template. Of course one can abuse anything in any framework but this is besides the point. my personal take is that if you are a

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread jlist9
Hi David, Appreciate your reply. It's definitely helpful in clearing some of my thoughts, as well as in my process of learning Scala down the road. I also think your book is very well paced and organization of the content is well thought out. Great job! I'd like to explain a little bit where my

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread Jim Barrows
On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 1:29 PM, jlist9 jli...@gmail.com wrote: Hi David, Appreciate your reply. It's definitely helpful in clearing some of my thoughts, as well as in my process of learning Scala down the road. I also think your book is very well paced and organization of the content is

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread David Pollak
On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 1:29 PM, jlist9 jli...@gmail.com wrote: Hi David, Appreciate your reply. It's definitely helpful in clearing some of my thoughts, as well as in my process of learning Scala down the road. I also think your book is very well paced and organization of the content is

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread jlist9
Perl's motto is There is more then one way to do it. I remember reading somewhere that part of the the design goal of Perl 6 was to make the language more sane. That says it all. For scripting language, I'd stick to Python, whose syntax feels natural to me, and to stay sane as much as I can.

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread Jim Barrows
On Thu, Oct 22, 2009 at 2:27 PM, jlist9 jli...@gmail.com wrote: Perl's motto is There is more then one way to do it. I remember reading somewhere that part of the the design goal of Perl 6 was to make the language more sane. That says it all. For scripting language, I'd stick to Python,

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread Ross Mellgren
Personally I think that Python is great for small simple things, but as soon as you start to scale the lack of statically checked guarantees starts to bite you. The larger and larger you get the more often and more subtle the bites get. Conversely, with a rigorous statically checked

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread johncch
I know this is not the programming languages weblog but I'll still like to chip in a bit.. I love Scala. I know it's confusing, sometimes (more often than not) it makes my head hurts. But the language itself is so expressive. I think it's kinda, well, maybe I'm machoistic, but there's often

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread Naftoli Gugenheim
How hard can automatic save be? But how would immutable DAOs work? There was a thread, I think on scala-user, a long time ago discussing it, that pretty much concluded it would be very problematic. David weighed in and said after a long time he concluded that databases represent state.

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-22 Thread Naftoli Gugenheim
The last use of _, as in empty_?, is not a special scala meaning. As on Java, underscores can be part of an identifier. Scala takes advantage of this to combine letters and symbols in one name. These names, like empty_?, are a Lift convention, as well as ..._! for use-with-care methods. The

[Lift] Re: A Critique On Lift

2009-10-21 Thread jlist9
override def validations = validPriority _ :: super.validations This is a more of a comment about Scala than one about Lift - this does look cryptic to me. And this is just one of the simpler syntax that confuses people, who are new to the language. And I'm one of them. I understand that you