[ot] Freedom of speech online + some more issues
Dear linux-il friends, 1. I'm very concerned with freedom of speech online, especially today when the www and Internet has become so commercial. When the big corporations control the Internet, or at least to some extent are controlling the Internet, some things can't be said and some ideas can't be expressed without being censored or sued. There are a few issues I want to discuss related to this, it's off topic linux but related to open source and freedom of speech so I think it's better if you reply off list to my posts or write me directly, I'm not writing everything here because it's long and I don't want to spam the list. 2. I need some information and advice about open source software for exchanging files and ideas, and I'm also looking for people to support and help coding or finding people who can help coding and also (before coding) designing the technical issues involved here. It's long and off topic so if you are interested please see more information here: http://www.speedy.net/uri/blog/?p=83 3. I recently joined facebook but my account was disabled and I decided to leave. It's also related to me being politically active and also me criticizing facebook. There are many people who use mainly facebook to communicate with other people and I can't communicate with these people (including my friends) and by the way things I wrote have been removed from Wikipedia talk pages and I was asked to leave and not return to this website too. http://www.speedy.net/uri/blog/?p=81 4. I'm currently looking for work. If you know something please let me know privately. You can see my profile at LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/urievenchen Thanks and I hope this post is accepted although it's not directly related to linux-il. Uri Even-Chen Mobile Phone: +972-50-9007559 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] My website: http://www.speedy.net/uri/ Never believe anything men say on odd days. Never believe anything women say on even days. Check the date before you believe someone! * מכתב זה אישי וחסוי מתחילתו ועד סופו. כל זכויות היוצרים שמורות לכותב המכתב. אין לפרסם או להפיץ את המכתב ברבים ללא רשות מפורשת מכותב המכתב. אם קיבלת מכתב זה בטעות וקראת עד כאן, תשכח מה שקראת, אל תדע מה שידעת ותעמיד פנים שמעולם לא קיבלת ולא קראת את המכתב. *
Re: [ot] Freedom of speech online + some more issues
Hi, 2008/4/5 Uri [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dear linux-il friends, 1. I'm very concerned with freedom of speech online, especially today when the www and Internet has become so commercial. When the big corporations control the Internet, or at least to some extent are controlling the Internet, some things can't be said and some ideas can't be expressed without being censored or sued. There are a few issues I want to discuss related to this, it's off topic linux but related to open source and freedom of speech so I think it's better if you reply off list to my posts or write me directly, I'm not writing everything here because it's long and I don't want to spam the list. I somehow have a feeling that many people from here already marked a message from you as SPAM and kicked this message. 2. I need some information and advice about open source software for exchanging files and ideas, and I'm also looking for people to support and help coding or finding people who can help coding and also (before coding) designing the technical issues involved here. It's long and off topic so if you are interested please see more information here: http://www.speedy.net/uri/blog/?p=83 I read your idea, and I would like to say few comments both to you and to people who might want to join you: 1. You're thinking about creating yet another file sharing company. Find yourself some lawyers. 2. As a person who previously matched between companies and developers, I would say to any developer who wants to join you, that you are a Red Risk, which means that developers should ask for cash (and not Shotef+30 or anything like that) or bank's cheque or a bank guarantee. Why? because you either do not know the law in Israel and/or being fully Naive. 3. Of course, any developer who accidentally served in the Israeli army should NOT try to work with you or else you'll mock and insult him, just like what you did 1-2 years ago, an act that was fully childish behavior. 3. I recently joined facebook but my account was disabled and I decided to leave. It's also related to me being politically active and also me criticizing facebook. There are many people who use mainly facebook to communicate with other people and I can't communicate with these people (including my friends) and by the way things I wrote have been removed from Wikipedia talk pages and I was asked to leave and not return to this website too. http://www.speedy.net/uri/blog/?p=81 Hmm, I wonder why they banned you :) 4. I'm currently looking for work. If you know something please let me know privately. You can see my profile at LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/urievenchen With your behavior? with your history? any potential employer who will Google you will throw your CV to the trash after 3 minutes. You clearly alienated tons of people with your act and any HR clerk with half a brain who will google you and see the results, will think that you are a trouble maker, and thats a big red-flag to them, which means they won't accept you. In all honesty Uri, you made few very-public mistakes by flaming many Israelis on your web site's banner only because they served in the army, and you keep doing so on other places till today. I've seen that you've become a spiritual guy, and one of the things that any spiritual things that you learn is to accept the other, even if his opinions are the opposite of yours. I myself write a blog and I wtite my political opinions there (I'm from the right-side of the political map), but I totally respect people who disagree with me. It's very important to separate a political opinion from a person and a basic respect should be given. I think you should apologize to many people who were insulted by your actions. Thanks, Hetz -- Skepticism is the lazy person's default position. my blog (hebrew): http://benhamo.org = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ot] Freedom of speech online + some more issues
- Hetz Ben Hamo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, 2008/4/5 Uri [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Dear linux-il friends, I somehow have a feeling that many people from here already marked a message from you as SPAM and kicked this message. Dear Hetz, I feel that your reaction to UeCh is somewhat Pavlovian. His idea (which - alas - is more of the very old same only smeared with spiritualistic nonsense) does not merit such reaction, in my opinion. 1. You're thinking about creating yet another file sharing company. Find yourself some lawyers. That is sound advice. Alas, Uri, no matter whether your intent is to share unencumbered content or (tfu-tfu-tfu, has ve halila, perish the thought) encumbered content, the powers that be (namely, people with gazillions of dollars in ready money) will not look on such an idea with all that much goodwill. 2. As a person who previously matched between companies and developers, I would say to any developer who wants to join you, that you are a Red Risk, which means that developers should ask for cash (and not Shotef+30 or anything like that) or bank's cheque or a bank guarantee. Why? because you either do not know the law in Israel and/or being fully Naive. Hetz, my dear, this is an ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem). It might even constitute libel. Yes, Uri is either unaware or ignoring Israeli and other laws, but using an ad hominem is always a bad idea. 3. Of course, any developer who accidentally served in the Israeli army should NOT try to work with you or else you'll mock and insult him, just like what you did 1-2 years ago, an act that was fully childish behavior. Again, an ad hominem. What does it matter that Uri rails (quite incoherently, I must say, which gravely detracts from his argumentation) against criminal organizations like the IDF, etc. Uri is somewhat misguided in his views, but that is not a very good reason to ad hominem him. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ot] Freedom of speech online + some more issues
Dear Hetz, Hi Marc, 2. As a person who previously matched between companies and developers, I would say to any developer who wants to join you, that you are a Red Risk, which means that developers should ask for cash (and not Shotef+30 or anything like that) or bank's cheque or a bank guarantee. Why? because you either do not know the law in Israel and/or being fully Naive. Hetz, my dear, this is an ad hominem (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem). It might even constitute libel. Yes, Uri is either unaware or ignoring Israeli and other laws, but using an ad hominem is always a bad idea. Ad hominem, the short hebrew version: http://milon.walla.co.il/ts.cgi?tsscript=indexterm=ad+hominem I see your point, but I respectfully disagree. I can give myself as an example: After signing my last contract to work at a start-up, the boss decided (3 weeks after I started to work) that I need to select an option: either a 60% cut of my salary or quitting. He's sure that he can get professional Linux staff for around 6-7K bruto. (I'm not talking about some person who just finished RHCE, he is looking for someone who knows load balancing, scripts, deep server knowledge etc..). Why he didn't check prior signing a contract with me getting people with this amount of salary is beyond me. I know that I had to quit due to his childish decisions and be left high and dry. It's not that he wasn't satisfied with my work, it's that he wasn't satisfied with the contract that he himself wrote and signed. Thats why I wrote what I wrote. 3. Of course, any developer who accidentally served in the Israeli army should NOT try to work with you or else you'll mock and insult him, just like what you did 1-2 years ago, an act that was fully childish behavior. Again, an ad hominem. What does it matter that Uri rails (quite incoherently, I must say, which gravely detracts from his argumentation) against criminal organizations like the IDF, etc. Uri is somewhat misguided in his views, but that is not a very good reason to ad hominem him. Oh? look at this (http://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-3295235,00.html). If someone cannot separate a military service from a citizen's life, then I think that developers who want to work for/with him should decide whatever they want to decide. Sorry for this OT stuff. Thanks, Hetz -- Skepticism is the lazy person's default position. my blog (hebrew): http://benhamo.org = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ot] Freedom of speech online + some more issues
On Sun, Apr 06, 2008 at 12:53:49AM +0300, Hetz Ben Hamo wrote: I see your point, but I respectfully disagree. I can give myself as an example: After signing my last contract to work at a start-up, the boss decided (3 weeks after I started to work) that I need to select an option: either a 60% cut of my salary or quitting. He's sure that he can get professional Linux staff for around 6-7K bruto. (I'm not talking about some person who just finished RHCE, he is looking for someone who knows load balancing, scripts, deep server knowledge etc..). Why he didn't check prior signing a contract with me getting people with this amount of salary is beyond me. I know that I had to quit due to his childish decisions and be left high and dry. It's not that he wasn't satisfied with my work, it's that he wasn't satisfied with the contract that he himself wrote and signed. Thats why I wrote what I wrote. I expect that it was something quite different. Much more likely is that they either had money troubles, or they had staffing problems and wanted to hire someone who wanted the extra money. They figured you would take the cut, and if you did not, they would live with whomever they could get at the salary. Each month they did not fill the job, they would make do and save the money. Quite possibly, they budgeted salaries and expenses at 4.25 NIS to the dollar, got their funding in dollars and found that it was now 30% short. I'm sorry that you had to go through the emotional roller coaster but in the end you are well rid of them. 95% of all startups fail, 75%-85% of them in the first year, and this is just one of the reasons. The statistics the government publishes are skewed because they only count startups that make it to the point of incorportation or registering with the tax authorities. Lots of startups are funded privately and never get that far. I'm not sure how you could do it and not expose yourself to trouble, but you should let everyone know who the guy was and the name of his company, so that no one else falls for the same trap. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [ot] Freedom of speech online + some more issues
Hi Geoff, I expect that it was something quite different. Much more likely is that they either had money troubles, or they had staffing problems and wanted to hire someone who wanted the extra money. They figured you would take the cut, and if you did not, they would live with whomever they could get at the salary. Each month they did not fill the job, they would make do and save the money. Quite possibly, they budgeted salaries and expenses at 4.25 NIS to the dollar, got their funding in dollars and found that it was now 30% short. Actually they had the money from VC's (around $700K) which isn't bad for a 4 people start-up. They already started to make some money. I'm sorry that you had to go through the emotional roller coaster but in the end you are well rid of them. 95% of all startups fail, 75%-85% of them in the first year, and this is just one of the reasons. Emotional roller coaster? thinking about the work there right now, it was simply written all over, and I should have connect the dots and see it coming. Want an example? I was given a simple task: create a backup/restore scripts. Nothing fancy, just create some tarballs, run it with cron with a command line parameter for debugging. Easy stuff, right? So I wrote it in bash, just like the other scripts were written. He didn't like that I use grep instead of egrep. fine. modified the script. Now he wants it to be written in Perl. Fine, Perl it is. Then he wanted it to be written in PHP. Fine, I wrote it in PHP with libcurl for uploading/downloading. He doesn't like libcurl. Fine, I'll rewrite it without libcurl. Ah, but libcurl can give you the HTTP status (200,300 you know..), rewrite with libcurl and add parameters for more verbose output. See what I mean? A damn simple job to create backup/restore had to be written 4 times because he couldn't decide on one way or letting me decide what to write and with what to write. Thats why I wrote what I wrote the first time. If your boss is acting like a child when he needs to make decisions, then this should be a sign for a potential employee. Personally, I like to laugh a lot and making stupid things, I have strong political opinions, and I even do some research on mysticism, and I write a blog about these things. I leave all of this behind me when I work. I'll be happy to talk to friends at work about mystic or political stuff when we're eating out or when we finished working at the end of the day, but I will NOT mix my agenda's with my work. Few months ago, I wrote a post about a biologist who was fired because he believed in creationism. You might be interested in reading it: http://benhamo.info/wp/?p=314 I'm not sure how you could do it and not expose yourself to trouble, but you should let everyone know who the guy was and the name of his company, so that no one else falls for the same trap. I prefer not to name names. Thanks, Hetz -- Skepticism is the lazy person's default position. my blog (hebrew): http://benhamo.org = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
On Fri, Sep 08, 2006, Uri Even-Chen wrote about Freedom of speech online: What I want you to know, is that recently I had some feeling that not all my E-mail messages are sent and received properly. Today I found out a proof that somebody is not only reading my mail, but also censors it. Some of the messages sent to me I don't receive. Maybe even most of them. I tried to send messages to myself to 2 different addresses. One I received instantly, and the other I didn't receive at all. I tried it again, same result. Somebody, probably related to the Israeli government, is censoring me. I don't have freedom of speech any more. And that's only because I criticised the Israeli government. Uri, the situation you're describing is possible technically, but highly unlikely. What is more likely that you're seeing the byproducts of the world's email infrastructure's increasing complexity - and often *stupidty* - as a result of the battle against spam. The delivery of your mail more and more relies on your IP address being oked by a bunch of blacklists, your choice of words being oked by a bunch of algorithms, your domain name being oked by a bunch of authentication techniques, and so on. Let me give you a simple example that I saw just yesterday. I sent a mail from my Technion account to someone in another reputable Israeli organization. Should have been straightforward, right? Well, a minute later, my email bounced. It turns out that a mail server on the way to the destination's mail server decided to verify that the domain on my mail, math.technion.ac.il, is in the DNS. Why? Does this prevent any spam? Not really, but what the heck - this is what they decided to check. It turns out that for a few seconds, a network problem rendered the technion unreachable and the DNS did not work. So the mail server decided that this mail was spam. I was lucky that they decided to *bounce* this alleged spam. Normally, this wouldn't even happen, and the alleged spam is just discarded and you never know why (because most of the from addresses are on spam are forged, there is no point in bouncing). I've seen even stranger things happening. Mails from yahoo.com silently dropped because some newbie sysadmin saw a lot of spam from @yahoo.com and decided to drop mail based on from address). Mails from an entire country dropped because someone thought that most spam comes from it. And so on. It would have been nice to see your evidence. Perhaps we could give you a different explanation than the government's involvement. Do you know any secure way to send and receive E-mails, without censorship and without the risk of someone blocking them? What about a webmail like Gmail? I don't see how break into that, seeing that login is done with SSL and that the servers lie in another country and Google probably won't cooperate with the Israeli government. Use the URL https://mail.google.com/mail/ and your entire connection to Google, not just the login, will be through SSL. This will make you immune to eavesdropping or man-in-the-middle attacks from the government. Of course, if the government has broken into your own machine, they may have installed malicious software there. Open your machine, look for any unrecoginized hardware, then reinstall your system from scratch, keep it up to date, and put up a software firewall (e.g., iptables on Linux). If you think I deserve it, think again. Today it's me, tomorrow it can be you too! About that, see the famous poem in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came... -- Nadav Har'El|Monday, Sep 11 2006, 18 Elul 5766 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |In God we Trust -- all others must submit http://nadav.harel.org.il |an X.509 certificate. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
First of all, I agree with most of the answer and believe that what you claim about governmental or any agency surveilance is possible but very, very, very improbable. El lun, 11-09-2006 a las 09:49 +0300, Nadav Har'El escribió: On Fri, Sep 08, 2006, Uri Even-Chen wrote about Freedom of speech online: What I want you to know, is that recently I had some feeling that not all my E-mail messages are sent and received properly. Today I found out a proof that somebody is not only reading my mail, but also censors it. Some of the messages sent to me I don't receive. Maybe even most of them. I tried to send messages to myself to 2 different addresses. One I received instantly, and the other I didn't receive at all. I tried it again, same result. Somebody, probably related to the Israeli government, is censoring me. I don't have freedom of speech any more. And that's only because I criticised the Israeli government. Uri, the situation you're describing is possible technically, but highly unlikely. What is more likely that you're seeing the byproducts of the world's email infrastructure's increasing complexity - and often *stupidty* - as a result of the battle against spam. The delivery of your mail more and more relies on your IP address being oked by a bunch of blacklists, your choice of words being oked by a bunch of algorithms, your domain name being oked by a bunch of authentication techniques, and so on. Let me give you a simple example that I saw just yesterday. I sent a mail from my Technion account to someone in another reputable Israeli organization. Should have been straightforward, right? Well, a minute later, my email bounced. It turns out that a mail server on the way to the destination's mail server decided to verify that the domain on my mail, math.technion.ac.il, is in the DNS. Why? Does this prevent any spam? Not really, but what the heck - this is what they decided to check. It turns out that for a few seconds, a network problem rendered the technion unreachable and the DNS did not work. So the mail server decided that this mail was spam. I was lucky that they decided to *bounce* this alleged spam. Normally, this wouldn't even happen, and the alleged spam is just discarded and you never know why (because most of the from addresses are on spam are forged, there is no point in bouncing). I've seen even stranger things happening. Mails from yahoo.com silently dropped because some newbie sysadmin saw a lot of spam from @yahoo.com and decided to drop mail based on from address). Mails from an entire country dropped because someone thought that most spam comes from it. And so on. It would have been nice to see your evidence. Perhaps we could give you a different explanation than the government's involvement. Do you know any secure way to send and receive E-mails, without censorship and without the risk of someone blocking them? What about a webmail like Gmail? I don't see how break into that, seeing that login is done with SSL and that the servers lie in another country and Google probably won't cooperate with the Israeli government. Use the URL https://mail.google.com/mail/ and your entire connection to Google, not just the login, will be through SSL. This will make you immune to eavesdropping or man-in-the-middle attacks from the government. Also, if you´ll like to improve the security and/ or anonymity of your Gmail experience, use Firefox( In Linux) as web browser install Tor, Privoxy, the FoxyPoxy Firefox´s extension, and follow the instructions of this link http://www.freenet.org.nz.nyud.net:8080/misc/google-privacy.html?coral-no-redirect . Of course, if the government has broken into your own machine, they may have installed malicious software there. Open your machine, look for any unrecoginized hardware, then reinstall your system from scratch, keep it up to date, and put up a software firewall (e.g., iptables on Linux). And if you are really, really paranoiac, you can use OpenBSD as OS in some of you computers to have an always¨ safe¨ option. I´m not an expert in OpenBSD, but there is a live CD designed to operate in laptops with wireless connection. It comes with Firefox and other basics applications and you can download it from http://kaos.to/cms/content/view/14/32/ . They claim at their website that it is special for defending people from governmental surveilance and also that you can install it to you HD. Hope that it will help you in someway. Good luck, Julian If you think I deserve it, think again. Today it's me, tomorrow it can be you too! About that, see the famous poem in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came... -- Nadav Har'El|Monday, Sep 11 2006, 18 Elul 5766 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |In God we Trust -- all others must submit http
Re: Freedom of speech online
Nadav Har'El wrote: I've seen even stranger things happening. Mails from yahoo.com silently dropped because some newbie sysadmin saw a lot of spam from @yahoo.com and decided to drop mail based on from address). About two years ago I failed to subscribe to unicode mailing lists on unicode.org, because their sysadmin decided that all emails from shemesh.biz should be blocked (yes, spammers did use this domains some year and a half prior to that). I guess it's more noobs than newbies. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting ltd. Have you backed up today's work? http://www.lingnu.com/backup.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
On Mon, Sep 11, 2006 at 01:12:53PM +0300, Shachar Shemesh wrote: About two years ago I failed to subscribe to unicode mailing lists on unicode.org, because their sysadmin decided that all emails from shemesh.biz should be blocked (yes, spammers did use this domains some year and a half prior to that). Yesterday I tried to post an anonymous comment on a blog. The blog rejected it because my IP address was used for an open relay. The problem is that I have a regular cable modem connection to Netvision. Yesterday's open relay, is today's web browser. Some people just don't understand dynamic IP addresses. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 Fax ONLY: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
On 9/11/06, Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Uri, the situation you're describing is possible technically, but highly unlikely. You think it's unlikely, because you don't expect secret agents to read and/or block E-mail messages of ordinary people like me? What if, for example, there was someone (let's call him Osama) who is a very dangerous terrorist. Don't you think they will do it to him? Read his E-mail, and maybe even censor it? I think you should at least consider the possibility that they can and will do it. So the question is not if they are capable of doing it (I think they are), but if they are capable of doing it to me (as in Uri). I think they are. I think they also sent agents to speak to me, spy on me and pretend they are ordinary people. I think they listened to my phone calls, and even disconnected some of my phone calls. It's difficult to prove, their agents never identify as such and they never leave any concrete evidence. I can't prove what I suspect, I just think it looks very suspisious. By the way, have you heard that the Bush administration is charging people invovled in animal rights as terrorists? For example, read about SHAC activists [http://www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/jones06152004/]. So maybe, after all, I am legally a terrorist? And if so, it that surprising that someone is reading my E-mail? What about a webmail like Gmail? I don't see how break into that, seeing that login is done with SSL and that the servers lie in another country and Google probably won't cooperate with the Israeli government. Think again. They cooperate with the Chinese government, and the United States government is known as a pro-Israeli government. [I'm writing you this message using Gmail]. If you think I deserve it, think again. Today it's me, tomorrow it can be you too! About that, see the famous poem in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came... Yes, I know. I read it before. Uri. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Freedom of speech online
People do understand, and yet decide to block them. I believe the term is collateral damage :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Geoffrey S. Mendelson Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 1:35 PM To: Shachar Shemesh Cc: Nadav Har'El; linux-il Subject: Re: Freedom of speech online On Mon, Sep 11, 2006 at 01:12:53PM +0300, Shachar Shemesh wrote: About two years ago I failed to subscribe to unicode mailing lists on unicode.org, because their sysadmin decided that all emails from shemesh.biz should be blocked (yes, spammers did use this domains some year and a half prior to that). Yesterday I tried to post an anonymous comment on a blog. The blog rejected it because my IP address was used for an open relay. The problem is that I have a regular cable modem connection to Netvision. Yesterday's open relay, is today's web browser. Some people just don't understand dynamic IP addresses. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 Fax ONLY: 972-2-648-1443 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Freedom of speech online
I think we heard enough. As many people already mentioned before, this is a technical list, rather than a political one. If someone was tapping your emails, I'm sure you already managed to bore them off. Can someone please forward this thread to the MOH? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Uri Even-Chen Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 2:02 PM To: Nadav Har'El Cc: linux-il Subject: Re: Freedom of speech online On 9/11/06, Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Uri, the situation you're describing is possible technically, but highly unlikely. You think it's unlikely, because you don't expect secret agents to read and/or block E-mail messages of ordinary people like me? What if, for example, there was someone (let's call him Osama) who is a very dangerous terrorist. Don't you think they will do it to him? Read his E-mail, and maybe even censor it? I think you should at least consider the possibility that they can and will do it. So the question is not if they are capable of doing it (I think they are), but if they are capable of doing it to me (as in Uri). I think they are. I think they also sent agents to speak to me, spy on me and pretend they are ordinary people. I think they listened to my phone calls, and even disconnected some of my phone calls. It's difficult to prove, their agents never identify as such and they never leave any concrete evidence. I can't prove what I suspect, I just think it looks very suspisious. By the way, have you heard that the Bush administration is charging people invovled in animal rights as terrorists? For example, read about SHAC activists [http://www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/jones06152004/]. So maybe, after all, I am legally a terrorist? And if so, it that surprising that someone is reading my E-mail? What about a webmail like Gmail? I don't see how break into that, seeing that login is done with SSL and that the servers lie in another country and Google probably won't cooperate with the Israeli government. Think again. They cooperate with the Chinese government, and the United States government is known as a pro-Israeli government. [I'm writing you this message using Gmail]. If you think I deserve it, think again. Today it's me, tomorrow it can be you too! About that, see the famous poem in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came... Yes, I know. I read it before. Uri. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
is this linux-il list?! orim-so-important-and-everybody-wants-to-kill-me-il list? Uri, take your paranoids elsewhere. please. /Nitzan (an alleged war criminal) On 9/11/06, Uri Even-Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/11/06, Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Uri, the situation you're describing is possible technically, but highly unlikely. You think it's unlikely, because you don't expect secret agents to read and/or block E-mail messages of ordinary people like me? What if, for example, there was someone (let's call him Osama) who is a very dangerous terrorist. Don't you think they will do it to him? Read his E-mail, and maybe even censor it? I think you should at least consider the possibility that they can and will do it. So the question is not if they are capable of doing it (I think they are), but if they are capable of doing it to me (as in Uri). I think they are. I think they also sent agents to speak to me, spy on me and pretend they are ordinary people. I think they listened to my phone calls, and even disconnected some of my phone calls. It's difficult to prove, their agents never identify as such and they never leave any concrete evidence. I can't prove what I suspect, I just think it looks very suspisious. By the way, have you heard that the Bush administration is charging people invovled in animal rights as terrorists? For example, read about SHAC activists [http://www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/jones06152004/]. So maybe, after all, I am legally a terrorist? And if so, it that surprising that someone is reading my E-mail? What about a webmail like Gmail? I don't see how break into that, seeing that login is done with SSL and that the servers lie in another country and Google probably won't cooperate with the Israeli government. Think again. They cooperate with the Chinese government, and the United States government is known as a pro-Israeli government. [I'm writing you this message using Gmail]. If you think I deserve it, think again. Today it's me, tomorrow it can be you too! About that, see the famous poem in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came... Yes, I know. I read it before. Uri. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
On 11/09/06, Uri Even-Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think they are. I think they also sent agents to speak to me, spy on me and pretend they are ordinary people. I think they listened to my phone calls, and even disconnected some of my phone calls. It's difficult to prove, their agents never identify as such and they never leave any concrete evidence. I can't prove what I suspect, I just think it looks very suspisious. Uri - if these agencies are so dangerous then would you please stop dragging us into their network? I'd hate to be the next person on their list and your discussion about this on this public list will surely make us all targe Oops - just a sec - there is a knock on the door. -- Military justice is to justice what military music is to music = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Freedom of speech online
On Mon, 2006-09-11 at 14:14 +0300, Imri Zvik wrote: I think we heard enough. As many people already mentioned before, this is a technical list, rather than a political one. If someone was tapping your emails, I'm sure you already managed to bore them off. Can someone please forward this thread to the MOH? .as if his TFH [1] wasn't enough to get him straitjacketed... Gilboa 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TFH = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
On Mon, Sep 11, 2006, Uri Even-Chen wrote about Re: Freedom of speech online: On 9/11/06, Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Uri, the situation you're describing is possible technically, but highly unlikely. You think it's unlikely, because you don't expect secret agents to read and/or block E-mail messages of ordinary people like me? What if, for example, there was someone (let's call him Osama) who is a very dangerous terrorist. Don't you think they will do it to him? I think everything is a tradeoff. Say it costs $100 a day to do this sort of surveilance on someone: let's say this (made up) cost includes lawyer fees (somebody had to convince that judge to issue an order), computer operator fees, hardware fees, and of course, the cost of someone to actually do something with your mail. If this surveilance carries on for a month, it would cost $3,000. If these prices were correct (and as I said, I just made them up), would the US blink for a second before investing $3,000 a month to follow Bin Laden? Of course not - they are already spending millions to chase him. But will the Israeli police invest $3,000 a month to follow one of the *thousands* of people who were arrested this year, one of the *thousands* of people who are political activists for the wrong party, and so on? Somehow I doubt it. Last time I delt with the Israeli police, it looks like they didn't even have a shekel to spare. Read his E-mail, and maybe even censor it? I think you should at least consider the possibility that they can and will do it. So the question is not if they are capable of doing it (I think they are), but if they are capable of doing it to me (as in Uri). My hunch: they are capable of doing this, but haven't done this in your case. My suspicion is (although I don't know your crimes :-)) that the Israeli Police, Mossad, Shabak, or whomever you suspect, have much bigger fish to catch: terrorist leaders, mafia bosses, gang leaders, embezelers of millions, car theft rings, armed robbers, and so on. I think they are. I think they also sent agents to speak to me, spy on me and pretend they are ordinary people. I think they listened to my phone calls, and even disconnected some of my phone calls. It's This is a different issue. Being probed by undercover agents sounds like a harmless, routine, work of the Shabak. For your phone to be tapped, they would need a court order, but it's also a relatively routine (and simpler) thing for them to do. Going after your email is harder to pull off, and is more of a one-off project (each person's email will require different techniques to tap, and not every two-bit cop can do this). By the way, have you heard that the Bush administration is charging people invovled in animal rights as terrorists? For example, read about SHAC activists [http://www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/jones06152004/]. So maybe, after all, I am legally a terrorist? And if so, it that surprising that someone is reading my E-mail? Frankly, in a country where hundreds of people get killed each year by actual terrorists, nobody really bothers to spend too much effort in catching the terrorists who spray-paint furs or free monkeys from cages... Think again. They cooperate with the Chinese government, and the United States government is known as a pro-Israeli government. So what? I don't think that Google would give a rat's *** if some Mossad agent came to them with the plea please help us catch that tree-hugging terrorist from Israel. If you suspect that Google do care, switch to another email provider that doesn't. If animal rights are important to you, maybe you can consider www.care2.com. -- Nadav Har'El|Monday, Sep 11 2006, 18 Elul 5766 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |God created the world out of nothing, but http://nadav.harel.org.il |the nothingness still shows through. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Freedom of speech online
When I read all this emails exchange I can now understand why Linux is so popular. Uri needs help, but this forum is not the place where is should look for it... Israel Shikler -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Nadav Har'El Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 2:46 PM To: Uri Even-Chen Cc: linux-il Subject: Re: Freedom of speech online On Mon, Sep 11, 2006, Uri Even-Chen wrote about Re: Freedom of speech online: On 9/11/06, Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Uri, the situation you're describing is possible technically, but highly unlikely. You think it's unlikely, because you don't expect secret agents to read and/or block E-mail messages of ordinary people like me? What if, for example, there was someone (let's call him Osama) who is a very dangerous terrorist. Don't you think they will do it to him? I think everything is a tradeoff. Say it costs $100 a day to do this sort of surveilance on someone: let's say this (made up) cost includes lawyer fees (somebody had to convince that judge to issue an order), computer operator fees, hardware fees, and of course, the cost of someone to actually do something with your mail. If this surveilance carries on for a month, it would cost $3,000. If these prices were correct (and as I said, I just made them up), would the US blink for a second before investing $3,000 a month to follow Bin Laden? Of course not - they are already spending millions to chase him. But will the Israeli police invest $3,000 a month to follow one of the *thousands* of people who were arrested this year, one of the *thousands* of people who are political activists for the wrong party, and so on? Somehow I doubt it. Last time I delt with the Israeli police, it looks like they didn't even have a shekel to spare. Read his E-mail, and maybe even censor it? I think you should at least consider the possibility that they can and will do it. So the question is not if they are capable of doing it (I think they are), but if they are capable of doing it to me (as in Uri). My hunch: they are capable of doing this, but haven't done this in your case. My suspicion is (although I don't know your crimes :-)) that the Israeli Police, Mossad, Shabak, or whomever you suspect, have much bigger fish to catch: terrorist leaders, mafia bosses, gang leaders, embezelers of millions, car theft rings, armed robbers, and so on. I think they are. I think they also sent agents to speak to me, spy on me and pretend they are ordinary people. I think they listened to my phone calls, and even disconnected some of my phone calls. It's This is a different issue. Being probed by undercover agents sounds like a harmless, routine, work of the Shabak. For your phone to be tapped, they would need a court order, but it's also a relatively routine (and simpler) thing for them to do. Going after your email is harder to pull off, and is more of a one-off project (each person's email will require different techniques to tap, and not every two-bit cop can do this). By the way, have you heard that the Bush administration is charging people invovled in animal rights as terrorists? For example, read about SHAC activists [http://www.pressaction.com/news/weblog/full_article/jones06152004/]. So maybe, after all, I am legally a terrorist? And if so, it that surprising that someone is reading my E-mail? Frankly, in a country where hundreds of people get killed each year by actual terrorists, nobody really bothers to spend too much effort in catching the terrorists who spray-paint furs or free monkeys from cages... Think again. They cooperate with the Chinese government, and the United States government is known as a pro-Israeli government. So what? I don't think that Google would give a rat's *** if some Mossad agent came to them with the plea please help us catch that tree-hugging terrorist from Israel. If you suspect that Google do care, switch to another email provider that doesn't. If animal rights are important to you, maybe you can consider www.care2.com. -- Nadav Har'El|Monday, Sep 11 2006, 18 Elul 5766 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |God created the world out of nothing, but http://nadav.harel.org.il |the nothingness still shows through. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
Whoever who is not interested, please don't read this thread. And please, don't respond! You're just spamming... On 9/11/06, Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think everything is a tradeoff. Say it costs $100 a day to do this sort of surveilance on someone: let's say this (made up) cost includes lawyer fees (somebody had to convince that judge to issue an order), computer operator fees, hardware fees, and of course, the cost of someone to actually do something with your mail. If this surveilance carries on for a month, it would cost $3,000. If these prices were correct (and as I said, I just made them up), would the US blink for a second before investing $3,000 a month to follow Bin Laden? Of course not - they are already spending millions to chase him. I called him Osama, not Bin Laden. It's just an example. He can be anybody, including you and me. This is a different issue. Being probed by undercover agents sounds like a harmless, routine, work of the Shabak. For your phone to be tapped, they would need a court order, but it's also a relatively routine (and simpler) thing for them to do. Going after your email is harder to pull off, and is more of a one-off project (each person's email will require different techniques to tap, and not every two-bit cop can do this). Actually, I suspect that court orders are needed only for ordinary police investigations. I think the Mossad, Shabak, etc, don't abide to laws, and they can do what they want. If you heard about what happened in other countries, for example New Zealand, Switzerland, Italy (Vaanunu), Norway, Jordan, how they assassinated people in Gaza and West Bank (the engineer) etc - you can see that they do what they want. So I think also in Israel, they can tap phones without court orders, for security reasons. So what? I don't think that Google would give a rat's *** if some Mossad agent came to them with the plea please help us catch that tree-hugging terrorist from Israel. If you suspect that Google do care, switch to another email provider that doesn't. If animal rights are important to you, maybe you can consider www.care2.com. Google, as a company, don't have to be involved. It can be either done by someone working at Google (and also for somebody else), or it can be done by the United States intelligence, with something like carnivore. The United States intelligence will probably cooperate with the Mossad, if they where after someone as dangerous as Osama, or me :-) Maybe they're more afraid from nonviolent terrorists than from violent ones. After all, I do admit to the most dangerous crime of being a pacifist. It's contagious! Uri. (Please don't send me hate letters. You better send them to [EMAIL PROTECTED]) Thanks. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
Quoting Amos Shapira, from the post of Mon, 11 Sep: On 11/09/06, Uri Even-Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think they are. I think they also sent agents to speak to me, spy on me and pretend they are ordinary people. I think they listened to my phone calls, and even disconnected some of my phone calls. It's If that's the case I see two options... A. you are low on Vitamin B12 and became paranoid, go see a doctor. B. It's real. go get a lawyer and have some trustworthy people involved. You're describing something reminiscent of the Men-In-Black Syndrome... And frankly I'd be more interested in what you said that you think started this. difficult to prove, their agents never identify as such and they never leave any concrete evidence. I can't prove what I suspect, I just think it looks very suspisious. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_in_Black#Psychological_Explanations Uri - if these agencies are so dangerous then would you please stop dragging us into their network? I'd hate to be the next person on their list and your discussion about this on this public list will surely make us all targe Might help to leave everything and catch the next flight to the absolute other end of the other hemisphere of the planet, mate! -- Through the looking glass Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
Quoting Amos Shapira, from the post of Sat, 09 Sep: Even technically - if Gmail directly connects to the SMTP port on your private server - how is the government supposed to be able to intercept, analyse and then block your TCP stream live? It's not impossible but would require going to a great length in order to achieve, don't you think? there are proxies in firewalls you know, and they are not even too expensive. They are mainly used to catch spam or malware, but the exact same technology is easely adapted to eavesdropping. Unless Uri checkes the TCP packets are really coming from where they are supposed to be, who's to tell he is getting the mail from Google or from a proxy? Need to dig the logs... Also, there are many ways to listen to TCP packets and kill a session in flight if you are on the route. that's how the Echelon system might work if it wasn't simply passive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON -- Curse of the bambino Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
Quoting Uri Even-Chen, from the post of Sat, 09 Sep: OK, I checked and here is some more information: at the time I suspect they were blocking my E-mail (which I think they stopped now), I received many messages in delay of about 10 minutes, if they were sent to one of the addresses being tapped. There was no delay to addresses not being tapped, or in some cases even to the addresses being tapped, depends who's the sender. It's possible they tapped only some of the traffic, for example from mail servers in Israel. It's not a concrete proof, but it adds to the other evidence I have. SMTP is not a real-time protocol. delayed messages are normal. 10 minutes for censorship of a letter is slow on the other hand :-) hey, why not use PGP on their ass if you want to drive them nuts? :) in any case, Dark and backwards as we are, I think Israelis enjoy more openness to opinions and freedom of speech than Americans. -- Telephone sanitary engineer Ira Abramov http://ira.abramov.org/email/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
What about a webmail like Gmail? I don't see how break into that, seeing that login is done with SSL and that the servers lie in another country and Google probably won't cooperate with the Israeli government. Think again. They cooperate with the Chinese government, and the United States government is known as a pro-Israeli government. [I'm writing you this message using Gmail]. Uri, It seems that you did not read or follow the recommendations how to use Goolge anonymously that I made at the bottom of my previous post. If you think I deserve it, think again. Today it's me, tomorrow it can be you too! About that, see the famous poem in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came... Yes, I know. I read it before. Uri. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Julian Daich [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
Uri Even-Chen wrote: You think it's unlikely, because you don't expect secret agents to read and/or block E-mail messages of ordinary people like me? Now you're just ignoring what I said. What if, for example, there was someone (let's call him Osama) who is a very dangerous terrorist. Don't you think they will do it to him? Read his E-mail, Absolutly, positively, without a doubt yes. and maybe even censor it? Absolutly, positively, without a doubt no. When you make someone your target, that last thing you want them to know is that you have figured out how to tap their communication paths. If you do, they may: 1. Find and disable your interception mechanism (if foreign - search for how wiretapped. If domestic, get a court order to make you stop). 2. Use (better) encryption to make sure you can't read their email. 3. Bypass email and use a phone. Any way you look at it, LISTENING in on communication is something I believe the Israeli agencies do all the time. INTERCEPTING is something that is almost never done. It simply makes zero operational sense. Yet you are certain that that was what happened, while not bringing a single piece of evidence. Yes, I'm afraid the term Paranoid does come to mind. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting ltd. Have you backed up today's work? http://www.lingnu.com/backup.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
me :-) Maybe they're more afraid from nonviolent terrorists than from violent ones. After all, I do admit to the most dangerous crime of being a pacifist. It's contagious! Uri, I think I want to express my gratitude to you for the first-class entertainment you are providing on the list. Observing people to openly get in touch with their tinfoil-hat side is a refreshing addition to the routine boredom of distributions and configuration tweaks. Good job! Wish you luck in your struggle against the mighty Big SMTP Brother and his omnipresent IP-minions. Please keep us posted if you discover that Mossad had replaced our government with insectoid aliens. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
I personally think what you're doing here is very bad, people who will read this discussion on google in the next zillion years would actually think Israel is a dark and scary place to live in. if i was you i would show some personal responsibility and 1st check my facts with security/network experts OFFLINE! and not throw it out to the open Internet. /Nitzan (AKA NuN) On 9/8/06, Uri Even-Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/8/06, marc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe Uri mentioned sending from a given email address to two addresses on the same mail server, with one email arriving and the other getting lost. That's right. Barring the question of tin-foil hats, etc, it _is_ possible and, if you ask my not very humble or contrite opinion, very Israeli-government-like behaviour. Uri - If you express your opinions (political, etc) online or publicly, expect repercussions. Mind you - no one impugned your freedom of speech. What you are experiencing is the _consequences_ of that same freedom. The Israeli Secret Service Swine (including all the official and para official organizations) are sufficiently, shall we say, divorced from human and humane principles or of submission to the laws of proper process and procedure to be quite able and willing to ... well, the code word NuN is appropriate. It is the very soul of the night, this Israeli propensity to shoot/abduct/blow/poison first, then foggily think about due process later. It is my hope and - should I have both the personal courage and the free time - desire to denounce those that would be well served by such a denouncement to dance to the tune of the London Charter before the ICC. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[OFFTOPIC] How to reply to Israeli paranoids (was: Re: Freedom of speech online)
If I ever bothered to be serious in replying to such accusations, I'd be more worried about Uri Even-Chen's own reputation than Israeli reputation. Every country has its own dark periods (Soviet Union's Stalin, USA's McCarthy and Bush Jr. periods, etc. etc. even if I refrain from mentioning the word which triggers Godwin's Law). This does not tarnish their reputation at their brighter periods. On the other hand, the guy in question would have to do some explaining to future employers if they read this discussion in Google and find that he harbored some paranoid tendencies during certain turbulent periods of Israeli history. --- Omer On Sat, 2006-09-09 at 09:07 +0300, Nitzan wrote: I personally think what you're doing here is very bad, people who will read this discussion on google in the next zillion years would actually think Israel is a dark and scary place to live in. if i was you i would show some personal responsibility and 1st check my facts with security/network experts OFFLINE! and not throw it out to the open Internet. /Nitzan (AKA NuN) On 9/8/06, Uri Even-Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 9/8/06, marc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe Uri mentioned sending from a given email address to two addresses on the same mail server, with one email arriving and the other getting lost. That's right. Barring the question of tin-foil hats, etc, it _is_ possible and, if you ask my not very humble or contrite opinion, very Israeli-government-like behaviour. Uri - If you express your opinions (political, etc) online or publicly, expect repercussions. Mind you - no one impugned your freedom of speech. What you are experiencing is the _consequences_ of that same freedom. The Israeli Secret Service Swine (including all the official and para official organizations) are sufficiently, shall we say, divorced from human and humane principles or of submission to the laws of proper process and procedure to be quite able and willing to ... well, the code word NuN is appropriate. It is the very soul of the night, this Israeli propensity to shoot/abduct/blow/poison first, then foggily think about due process later. It is my hope and - should I have both the personal courage and the free time - desire to denounce those that would be well served by such a denouncement to dance to the tune of the London Charter before the ICC. -- One does not make peace with enemies. One makes peace with former enemies. My own blog is at http://tddpirate.livejournal.com/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
On 9/9/06, Nitzan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally think what you're doing here is very bad, people who will read this discussion on google in the next zillion years would actually think Israel is a dark and scary place to live in. Oh, sorry! I forgot! Israel is a free democracy, human rights are never abused here, the government of Israel never does anything illegal, the Israeli armed forces are not involved in war crimes, there is no death penalty without a court order, Israeli airplanes don't bomb civil neighborhoods from the air, the laws of Israel are not racist, there are no administrative arrests of innocent people (they are all gulity), the Israeli government never denies what they did, the Israeli government (and its agents) never do anything illegal in territories of other countries. Should I continue? Mind you, Israel IS a dark and scary place to live in. Depends who you are. What's your race and religion. etc. But I don't want to get too much into politics here. Uri. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
On 9/8/06, marc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe Uri mentioned sending from a given email address to two addresses on the same mail server, with one email arriving and the other getting lost. Barring the question of tin-foil hats, etc, it _is_ possible and, if you ask my not very humble or contrite opinion, very Israeli-government-like behaviour. Uri - If you express your opinions (political, etc) online or publicly, expect repercussions. Mind you - no one impugned your freedom of speech. What you are experiencing is the _consequences_ of that same freedom. The Israeli Secret Service Swine (including all the official and para official organizations) are sufficiently, shall we say, divorced from human and humane principles or of submission to the laws of proper process and procedure to be quite able and willing to ... well, the code word NuN is appropriate. It is the very soul of the night, this Israeli propensity to shoot/abduct/blow/poison first, then foggily think about due process later. Sorry, what's NuN? It is my hope and - should I have both the personal courage and the free time - desire to denounce those that would be well served by such a denouncement to dance to the tune of the London Charter before the ICC. OK, I checked and here is some more information: at the time I suspect they were blocking my E-mail (which I think they stopped now), I received many messages in delay of about 10 minutes, if they were sent to one of the addresses being tapped. There was no delay to addresses not being tapped, or in some cases even to the addresses being tapped, depends who's the sender. It's possible they tapped only some of the traffic, for example from mail servers in Israel. It's not a concrete proof, but it adds to the other evidence I have. Uri. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
But I don't want to get too much into politics here. Please take your political views elsewhere. This is a Linux oriented technical mailing list, not a forum on tapuz. Me, for one, is is sick and tired of your bullshit. Go away. Now. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
On Sat, 2006-09-09 at 08:54 +0200, Uri Even-Chen wrote: On 9/9/06, Nitzan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally think what you're doing here is very bad, people who will read this discussion on google in the next zillion years would actually think Israel is a dark and scary place to live in. Oh, sorry! I forgot! Israel is a free democracy, human rights are never abused here, the government of Israel never does anything illegal, the Israeli armed forces are not involved in war crimes, there is no death penalty without a court order, Israeli airplanes don't bomb civil neighborhoods from the air, the laws of Israel are not racist, there are no administrative arrests of innocent people (they are all gulity), the Israeli government never denies what they did, the Israeli government (and its agents) never do anything illegal in territories of other countries. Should I continue? Mind you, Israel IS a dark and scary place to live in. Depends who you are. What's your race and religion. etc. But I don't want to get too much into politics here. Uri. This is a technical Linux mailing list and not a political one. Take your political agenda, tin foil hat included, elsewhere. Now! - Gilboa Oh, I wish I had my chance to turn Israel into my own favorite Drakonia - somehow I doubt that having your email SNTP sessions tapped would have worried you when my brute squad will come marching in... Davara. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Nitzan wrote: I personally think what you're doing here is very bad, people who will read this discussion on google in the next zillion years would actually think Israel is a dark and scary place to live in. if i was you i would show some personal responsibility and 1st check my facts with security/network experts OFFLINE! and not throw it out to the open Internet. /Nitzan (AKA NuN) Actually, I am not at all concerned with the reputation of Israel as a polity or a state. As for casting aspersions - that is what the internet is for - sharing porn and slandering everything and everyone, no? M -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFAl1Fj9cvu/qbAI8RAiqXAJ48vCsVBnT2LcBY0gYl574ojAXhhgCfcLgn JoAVXbUUEYgujRE9/HVKZ7c= =Ynnv -END PGP SIGNATURE- = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
On Fri, Sep 08, 2006 at 05:39:11PM +0300, Shachar Shemesh wrote: And the bottom line is this. It's not about you, just like it wasn't about me. As things stood, when MS did explicitly target Wine (in WGA) they actually went public with it. I've heard that Wine actually passed the WGA test with flying colours: http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2005/08/08/Linux_OK_WGA/ -- Lionel = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
Lionel Elie Mamane wrote: On Fri, Sep 08, 2006 at 05:39:11PM +0300, Shachar Shemesh wrote: And the bottom line is this. It's not about you, just like it wasn't about me. As things stood, when MS did explicitly target Wine (in WGA) they actually went public with it. I've heard that Wine actually passed the WGA test with flying colours: http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2005/08/08/Linux_OK_WGA/ They detected Wine using the standard if you must method - checking for HKLM\Software\Wine key. There was some discussions on whether we should just bypass it, and the consensus was a resonating no. But then Wine underwent a configuration change, and the key vanished. This was nothing to do with WGA. It was just a fairly planned change in Wine. Apparently, MS did not alter their WGA tests since, and so Wine, for the time being, passes. I should point out that just about every Wine developer knows of a way to detect whether you are running on Wine that cannot be blocked by Wine, so we are fairly sure we do not intend to start a cat and fish (or was it mouse and fish?) game over this point. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting ltd. Have you backed up today's work? http://www.lingnu.com/backup.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
On Fri, Sep 08, 2006 at 02:06:32PM +0200, Uri Even-Chen wrote: Hi everybody, Recently I was politically active and published opinions against the formal policy of the government of Israel. I don't want to get into details about my opinions, or if it's legal or not to express them. What I want you to know, is that recently I had some feeling that not all my E-mail messages are sent and received properly. Today I found out a proof that somebody is not only reading my mail, but also censors it. Some of the messages sent to me I don't receive. Maybe even most of them. I tried to send messages to myself to 2 different addresses. One I received instantly, and the other I didn't receive at all. I tried it again, same result. Somebody, probably related to the Israeli government, is censoring me. I don't have freedom of speech any more. And that's only because I criticised the Israeli government. Well, my mail server managed to get blacklisted once for the sole crime of a luser sending spam through it. I would suspect spamming-related blacklisting (be that false. e.g: because of someone else in the same addresses block as your server) first. -- Tzafrir = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
Sorry, I have my own mail server and there is no spam filter. I'm also not black listed. I sent 2 messages from Gmail (same address), to 2 different addresses on my server, and only one of them was received. I did it again, same result. I have reasons to believe the Israeli government is censoring me. Uri. On 9/8/06, E L [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: First of all I think there is much better chance a spam filter is filtering your messages than anything else:) So you first should go to your isp or whoever provide your email account asking them about it. It could be someone complained about you and you got black listed. Anyhow you can always use pgp and then no one else can readd your email Ely On 9/8/06, Uri Even-Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everybody, Recently I was politically active and published opinions against the formal policy of the government of Israel. I don't want to get into details about my opinions, or if it's legal or not to express them. What I want you to know, is that recently I had some feeling that not all my E-mail messages are sent and received properly. Today I found out a proof that somebody is not only reading my mail, but also censors it. Some of the messages sent to me I don't receive. Maybe even most of them. I tried to send messages to myself to 2 different addresses. One I received instantly, and the other I didn't receive at all. I tried it again, same result. Somebody, probably related to the Israeli government, is censoring me. I don't have freedom of speech any more. And that's only because I criticised the Israeli government. I want to know, is this legal? Did it happen before? Do you know other mailing lists or websites which might want to know it? I think the Israeli government wants to shut me up, and I think they know why. Do you know any secure way to send and receive E-mails, without censorship and without the risk of someone blocking them? If you think I deserve it, think again. Today it's me, tomorrow it can be you too! Best Regards, Uri Even-Chen (If you're not sure I received your E-mail, you can also send me messages by fax, +972-9-7716721. It will take me some time to read them). = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
Uri Even-Chen wrote: Sorry, I have my own mail server and there is no spam filter. I'm also not black listed. I sent 2 messages from Gmail (same address), to 2 different addresses on my server, and only one of them was received. I did it again, same result. I have reasons to believe the Israeli government is censoring me. Uri. When you hear hoofs, better first assume horses. While it is entirely possible that your email is being TAPPED, emails actually not being received is infinitely more likely due to misconfiguration or other types of problems, rather than some sinister government activity. Just think about it. What are the odds that someone will be blocking emails that you send to yourself? What's to be gained by said mysterious government agency? Check DNS configuration, mail configuration, quotas, try sending the mail by telneting directly to port 25, and report back. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting ltd. Have you backed up today's work? http://www.lingnu.com/backup.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
OK, I want to clarify some things: 1. My mail server is configured correctly. 2. After I wrote about it to a friend (from Gmail), they found out, and stopped the censorship within a few minutes. 3. I did again the same test, this time received both messages instantly. 4. I had the feeling that many messages I sent were not received, or messages sent to me were not received by me. This needs to be proved, but I believe it is true. 5. Of course it can also be related to the allmighty United States government. But I have a feeling that both governments will never admit it. 6. They don't block only messages I sent to myself, they read any message I send and receive, and then decide whether to block it. That's the reason why I didn't receive messages I sent to myself. Uri. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
On Friday 08 September 2006 15:27, Uri Even-Chen wrote: I have reasons to believe the Israeli government is censoring me. You've got to be kidding me. Not only is it very difficult to pull off technically, it is ridiculous to think that the barely functioning Israeli government (BTW: what minister exactly? Or was it a cooperation of the Mosad and the little green men from Mars?) has decided to take a personal vendeta against you and silence you for being such a dangerous political activist. In the first time in the known world history, I might add. I guess the government is sorry it didn't have that great ability when Va'anunu was released from prison, or perhaps Va'anunu wasn't as dangerous as you and our government didn't want to use our entire arsenal on him. One has to wonder why they haven't blocked your email to the list saying you're being censored but I don't want to ruin your paranoia with logic so I'll skip forward. Common, being paranoid is fine, but you don't have to do it in a public Linux mailing list. People reading the archives might take you seriously. Do you know any secure way to send and receive E-mails, without censorship and without the risk of someone blocking them? I guess you do - since you managed to send this email without censorship. If you think I deserve it, think again. Today it's me, tomorrow it can be you too! I certainly hope that you're wrong and whatever it is you have is _not_ contagious. Uri. - Aviram = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
I know that everybody thinks it, but I am gonna be the one to say it. You are just paranoid. Don't you think that both goverments has nothing better to do then to monitor / block emails from a person who said that soldiers are criminals on his website ? You are small fish. Relax, take a vacation or something. - Original Message - From: Uri Even-Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]; E L [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Adam Morrison [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Tzafrir Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: linux-il linux-il@linux.org.il Sent: Friday, September 08, 2006 3:37 PM Subject: Re: Freedom of speech online OK, I want to clarify some things: 1. My mail server is configured correctly. 2. After I wrote about it to a friend (from Gmail), they found out, and stopped the censorship within a few minutes. 3. I did again the same test, this time received both messages instantly. 4. I had the feeling that many messages I sent were not received, or messages sent to me were not received by me. This needs to be proved, but I believe it is true. 5. Of course it can also be related to the allmighty United States government. But I have a feeling that both governments will never admit it. 6. They don't block only messages I sent to myself, they read any message I send and receive, and then decide whether to block it. That's the reason why I didn't receive messages I sent to myself. Uri. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
Uri Even-Chen wrote: OK, I want to clarify some things: 1. My mail server is configured correctly. Don't you just love axioms. 2. After I wrote about it to a friend (from Gmail), they found out, and stopped the censorship within a few minutes. Or the transient error got better. 4. I had the feeling that many messages I sent were not received, or messages sent to me were not received by me. This needs to be proved, but I believe it is true. I believe it is true too. The question that begs answer is why? If you receive those same emails within the next five days (or a bounce), this was probably just a configuraiton error. Email has failsafe mechanisms, but they sometimes take time. 5. Of course it can also be related to the allmighty United States government. But I have a feeling that both governments will never admit it. No need to. Next time this happens, do give me a call. There are ways you can test whether this is someone messing around or not. 6. They don't block only messages I sent to myself, they read any message I send and receive, and then decide whether to block it. That's the reason why I didn't receive messages I sent to myself. Ok, here's how the powers of the dark work. There are two modus operandi, and neither seem to match what you are doing here: 1. Gathering intelligence. In this mode, the worst thing that can happen to them is that you know they are monitoring you. If this is were what is/was going on with you, they would never, ever, so much as delay a message in transit. It is unnecessary for reading this message, and it hints to you they are on to you. 2. Someone is dangerous enough to be silenced. Unfortunately, there is such a mechanism in Israel for doing so. It is called administrative arrest. A person can be taken off the street, no trial, no lawyer, for periods of several weeks at least. I do believe that you would have noticed had that been the case. I'm sorry. It's not that I don't believe that the Israeli government is morally up to what you are describing. It's just that the actual symptoms make zero sense. Uri. In a way, paranoia is a natural state of mind. It bears directly on our fundamentally ego-centric nature. In order for you not to take this personally, allow me to share a little story with you where I reacted the same as you did now. A (long) while back I worked on a Wine feature. The feature was implementing support for a horrid hack of a library called Unicows. It was meant to solve a deep MS dilemma: so long as Windows 9x was a valid OS to run, no sensible application developer would produce Unicode applications, as they will not be able to run on Windows 9x, even if no actual Unicode support was required. To solve this problem they introduced a horrible hack called Unicows. You link it with your application with higher precedence than the usual libs, and it intercepts any call to any Unicode (*W) related Windows function. If you're on NT and such it just passes the call along to the real function. If you're on 9x it tries to emulate the call, as best it can, using the Ansi (*A) functions. Did I mention it was a horrible hack? Thing is, the NT vs. 9x detection wouldn't work on Wine. This was strange, as you would expect it to simply call GetWindowsVersion. After much digging I found out that the detection was implemented completely differently. It would call some file related function with arguments that did not make any sense. Something along the line of \\?\?.?. The function would, obviously, fail. However, on Windows 9x it would fail with Invalid argument, while on NT it would fail with File not found. Wine did not implement this distinction, and it would always detect it as Windows 9x. At this point my paranoia mode kicked in. I figured Microsoft did this on purpose to make wine fail! What other explanation could possibly account for the fact that they didn't just get the windows version? And the bottom line is this. It's not about you, just like it wasn't about me. As things stood, when MS did explicitly target Wine (in WGA) they actually went public with it. It's just healthy paranoia. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting ltd. Have you backed up today's work? http://www.lingnu.com/backup.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
Aviram Jenik wrote: Not only is it very difficult to pull off technically, Not that difficult if you recruit the ISP's cooperation (in his case - netvision). Just redirect all traffic (or just the port 25 traffic) to a filtering machine, and have it directly deliver anything that it does not want to scan. I'm not saying they DID (quite the contrary), just that it is not that difficult. Common, being paranoid is fine, but you don't have to do it in a public Linux mailing list. People reading the archives might take you seriously. Aw, come on. What's the fun in being paranoid inside the confine of your own home? I guess you do - since you managed to send this email without censorship. Yes, that is a strange part of the story, but like I said elsewhere in this thread, there are other things that don't add up here. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting ltd. Have you backed up today's work? http://www.lingnu.com/backup.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OFFTOPIC] Paranoia expels boredom (was: Re: Freedom of speech online)
ביום שישי, 8 בספטמבר 2006, 18:23, נכתב על ידי Omer Zak: AND, YES, THE BORG INVASION IS PLANNED TO START ABOUT TWO YEARS FROM NOW. START PREPARING NOW! actually I can confirm that one, please apt-get dist-upgrade -y your servers. resistance is not futile. -- diego, kde-il translation team Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments. See http://www.fsf.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OFFTOPIC] Paranoia expels boredom (was: Re: Freedom of speech online)
ביום שישי 08 ספטמבר 2006, 18:23, נכתב על ידי Omer Zak: AND, YES, THE BORG INVASION IS PLANNED TO START ABOUT TWO YEARS FROM NOW. Ah, so Vista got delayed again?
Re: [OFFTOPIC] Paranoia expels boredom (was: Re: Freedom of speech online)
On Fri, 2006-09-08 at 19:13 +0300, Levy, Chen wrote: ביום שישי 08 ספטמבר 2006, 18:23, נכתב על ידי Omer Zak: AND, YES, THE BORG INVASION IS PLANNED TO START ABOUT TWO YEARS FROM NOW. Ah, so Vista got delayed again? Yes. If Vista weren't delayed, then the Borg would have delayed their operations until they develop an effective defense against the melody, which Microsoft are going to make cumpulsory listening by anyone who is turning on a PC with Vista. YES, MICROSOFT KNOWS SOMETHING THAT WE MORTALS DO NOT KNOW. --- Omer -- I am the Cochlear Corporation of the Borg. All resistance is futile. Deaf Culture is irrelevant. YOU SHALL BE IMPLANTED. My own blog is at http://tddpirate.livejournal.com/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
On 9/8/06, marc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe Uri mentioned sending from a given email address to two addresses on the same mail server, with one email arriving and the other getting lost. That's right. Barring the question of tin-foil hats, etc, it _is_ possible and, if you ask my not very humble or contrite opinion, very Israeli-government-like behaviour. Uri - If you express your opinions (political, etc) online or publicly, expect repercussions. Mind you - no one impugned your freedom of speech. What you are experiencing is the _consequences_ of that same freedom. The Israeli Secret Service Swine (including all the official and para official organizations) are sufficiently, shall we say, divorced from human and humane principles or of submission to the laws of proper process and procedure to be quite able and willing to ... well, the code word NuN is appropriate. It is the very soul of the night, this Israeli propensity to shoot/abduct/blow/poison first, then foggily think about due process later. It is my hope and - should I have both the personal courage and the free time - desire to denounce those that would be well served by such a denouncement to dance to the tune of the London Charter before the ICC. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
On 9/8/06, Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ok, here's how the powers of the dark work. There are two modus operandi, and neither seem to match what you are doing here: 1. Gathering intelligence. In this mode, the worst thing that can happen to them is that you know they are monitoring you. If this is were what is/was going on with you, they would never, ever, so much as delay a message in transit. It is unnecessary for reading this message, and it hints to you they are on to you. Yes, I think they did it too. 2. Someone is dangerous enough to be silenced. Unfortunately, there is such a mechanism in Israel for doing so. It is called administrative arrest. A person can be taken off the street, no trial, no lawyer, for periods of several weeks at least. I do believe that you would have noticed had that been the case. They do administrative arrests all the time, mostly to people who are not Jewish and not Israeli citizens (what we call Palestinians). But they can't do it without the arrest being published. Especially for an Israeli citizen, who has many relatives. A person can't just disappear (or he can, it happened to Vaanunu. But it's not common). So there is a high price for administrative arrest (and the person can appeal to court, too). On the other hand, there are more clean way to silence somebody. They can drive him crazy, then close him in a mental hospital. They already warned me that they will send me to a mental hospital, when I was arrested by the police last week. It's a very effective way to silence someone who speaks, if they don't want him to speak. They torture people there. I know it from personal experience. They can be very violent if you don't follow their rules. So excuse me for being paranoid, but I have my reasons. I think they really don't want me to speak. Maybe they want to drive me crazy. It can't be coincidence, there are too many signs. I really think they are following me. Uri. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
On 9/8/06, Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not that difficult if you recruit the ISP's cooperation (in his case - netvision). Just redirect all traffic (or just the port 25 traffic) to a filtering machine, and have it directly deliver anything that it does not want to scan. I'm not saying they DID (quite the contrary), just that it is not that difficult. Thanks for the technical description. It sounds very similar to what I suspect they did. Did you know it was Netvision, or did you check the IP? And if they did it, is there any way for me to find out? Besides losing some of the E-mails sent to me? Do they leave any tracks? Can I check the E-mail messages I did received? The headers? Will they be different? Is what they did (if they did it) legal? I assume that if Netvision got a court order, they will not reveal it to me. I already received a similar court order once, I had to reveal details of a customer of mine or I would go to jail. I tried to get out of it, they insisted and eventually I revealed the details. I felt very bad for betraying one of my customers. It's the only time I did it, in other cases I didn't reveal anything. And even if they got a court order, can a court order allow them to block some of my incoming messages? And if not, if the court order doesn't allow it, then I guess they probably did it illegally. Or maybe even there is no court order, someone who works at Netvision or has access there did it, without asking permission? What do you think? Uri. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
Uri Even-Chen wrote: Thanks for the technical description. It sounds very similar to what I suspect they did. Did you know it was Netvision, May I remind you, again, that I believe that what you think happened is NOT what happened? or did you check the IP? Your server is located at the Netvision hosting farm (based on its IP). The best way to pull something like what I'm describing off would be there. Then again, this can be done further away. Of course, the further away you perform such a trick, the less traffic you get, and you miss some. And if they did it, is there any way for me to find out? Retroactively? Only if they were non-careful. While it happens, however, there actually is what to do to find out whether this is the case or not. Besides losing some of the E-mails sent to me? Do they leave any tracks? Can I check the E-mail messages I did received? The headers? Will they be different? Well, the received line may be broken. It's not easy to spot, and it is possible for a smart interceptor to prevent it (assuming they are, already, on the line). Is what they did (if they did it) legal? I'm aware of a law that forbids listening in on emails enroute without a court order. I don't know how it applies to special agencies. I'm not aware of any law that allows blocking of traffic of any kind, but I am not a lawyer. I assume that if Netvision got a court order, they will not reveal it to me. I do believe that if the court order said it should be secret, then they are not allowed to. Then again, it's extremely stupid to issue a secrecy order on blocking someone. I already received a similar court order once, I had to reveal details of a customer of mine or I would go to jail. I tried to get out of it, they insisted and eventually I revealed the details. I felt very bad for betraying one of my customers. It's the only time I did it, in other cases I didn't reveal anything. That's why I: 1. Have a lawyer knowledgable in those matters, and mindful of human rights. 2. Make sure that my backup service does not allow ME to read client's data either. It much easier to resist such orders when you simply don't have the information law enforcement is after. Having said that, our privacy policy clearly states that should a court order arrive that demands that we hand over information, that we will. And even if they got a court order, can a court order allow them to block some of my incoming messages? And if not, if the court order doesn't allow it, then I guess they probably did it illegally. Or maybe even there is no court order, someone who works at Netvision or has access there did it, without asking permission? What do you think? Too much hypothesis for me. Uri. Let's agree that if such a thing happens again, give me a call (google knows my number, search for my resume). Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting ltd. Have you backed up today's work? http://www.lingnu.com/backup.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Freedom of speech online
On 08/09/06, Uri Even-Chen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, I have my own mail server and there is no spam filter.I'malso not black listed.I sent 2 messages from Gmail (same address),to 2 different addresses on my server, and only one of them wasreceived.I did it again, same result.I have reasons to believe the Israeli government is censoring me.Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity.http://www.jargon.net/jargonfile/h/HanlonsRazor.htmlI think you are jumping to too many conclusions. Even technically - if Gmail directly connects to the SMTP port on your private server - how is the government supposed to be able to intercept, analyse and then block your TCP stream live? It's not impossible but would require going to a great length in order to achieve, don't you think? --Amos-- Military justice is to justice what military music is to music
Re: Freedom of speech online
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Shachar Shemesh wrote: When you hear hoofs, better first assume horses. I believe Uri mentioned sending from a given email address to two addresses on the same mail server, with one email arriving and the other getting lost. Barring the question of tin-foil hats, etc, it _is_ possible and, if you ask my not very humble or contrite opinion, very Israeli-government-like behaviour. Uri - If you express your opinions (political, etc) online or publicly, expect repercussions. Mind you - no one impugned your freedom of speech. What you are experiencing is the _consequences_ of that same freedom. The Israeli Secret Service Swine (including all the official and para official organizations) are sufficiently, shall we say, divorced from human and humane principles or of submission to the laws of proper process and procedure to be quite able and willing to ... well, the code word NuN is appropriate. It is the very soul of the night, this Israeli propensity to shoot/abduct/blow/poison first, then foggily think about due process later. It is my hope and - should I have both the personal courage and the free time - desire to denounce those that would be well served by such a denouncement to dance to the tune of the London Charter before the ICC. Marc -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFFAW+Qj9cvu/qbAI8RAmdRAJ9sIwNu2rhrryoZuhf59KQrFsfRswCeMOBA JHGIzGOKy8AJGx1n/SB0oIM= =5PZr -END PGP SIGNATURE- = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
