Re: [MBZ] 560 sel differential? 1988

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

Thanks. I put a used one in the 300td this year already. Not a good year
for differentials apparently.

I put a wavetrac LSD into the 606 wagon. That is the only one I have
rebuilt. Did not touch the pinion so I just bolted it back together.

I suspect the howl is from the pinion. There seem to be a lot of these old
LSD 560 diffs for sale, so I wonder if they fail more often for whatever
reason. Anyway there is an ebay one not too far from me so I will put some
bearings and seals in it and do the swap.

Thanks,
Karl

On Sun, Sep 18, 2022, 8:22 AM OK Don via Mercedes 
wrote:

> In the one diff that I had to rebuild back when I was a paid wrench, the
> noise was coming from the pinion gear - it was visibly worn. We replaced
> the gears and bearings, after waiting months for the special order Volvo
> parts, and sent it on its way, happy and quiet.
>
> I'd vote for getting a used diff, inspect/repair it, then do the swap.
>
> On Sat, Sep 17, 2022 at 12:24 PM Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Anyone have an old 2.42 diff from a 126? The USA sel cars had LSD, but
> not
> > critical. Mine is whining. I guess I could put new bearings in and see if
> > that fixes it, but I wonder if it is a bearing or gears that fail.
> > ___
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>
> --
> OK Don
>
> "Quality of life is inversely proportional to the amount of clothing you
> are wearing."
>
> "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
> pause and reflect." Mark Twain
>
> “Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”
> Wernher
> Von Braun
> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
> 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] 560 sel differential? 1988

[OK Don via Mercedes]

In the one diff that I had to rebuild back when I was a paid wrench, the
noise was coming from the pinion gear - it was visibly worn. We replaced
the gears and bearings, after waiting months for the special order Volvo
parts, and sent it on its way, happy and quiet.

I'd vote for getting a used diff, inspect/repair it, then do the swap.

On Sat, Sep 17, 2022 at 12:24 PM Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Anyone have an old 2.42 diff from a 126? The USA sel cars had LSD, but not
> critical. Mine is whining. I guess I could put new bearings in and see if
> that fixes it, but I wonder if it is a bearing or gears that fail.
> ___
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> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>

-- 
OK Don

"Quality of life is inversely proportional to the amount of clothing you
are wearing."

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect." Mark Twain

“Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”  Wernher
Von Braun
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] 560 sel differential? 1988

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Sat, 17 Sep 2022 10:23:04 -0700 Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Anyone have an old 2.42 diff from a 126? The USA sel cars had LSD, but
> not critical. Mine is whining. I guess I could put new bearings in and
> see if that fixes it, but I wonder if it is a bearing or gears that
> fail.

My 1989 Chevrolet Beauville van's differential started making noise after
I changed the gear oil to a synthetic. I later took the back off the
differential -- a messy task: why did they not put a drain plug on it?!
-- and looked at the gears. Everything seemed OK, so I presume its
problem is in the bearings. I refilled it with the best gear oil the
local NAPA store had (Royal Purple) and have continued to drive it.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

I agree on the 3k thing. I do think there is some regional variation and it
is totally rust free. I could find a 3k version somewhere but if it costs
1k to get it here, it doesnt really put me ahead. Most of these cars are
well over 200k and things like the sun visor mirror lids are all broken
off, or window regulators or sunroof not working, etc. The dash is perfect
and the gauge cluster appears as new. Brake and accelerator pads line up
with the mileage. Oh well. Not paying 5.

On Fri, Apr 16, 2021, 6:16 AM Max Dillon via Mercedes 
wrote:

> 3K sounds better.  A family member recently purchased a late 80's 420SEL,
> he loves it.  Beautiful dark red color.  Recently took it on a multi day
> road trip, got mileage on the mid 20s, one tank was upper 20s when they had
> a tail wind all day.
>
> Max Dillon
> Charleston SC
>
>
> Apr 15, 2021 8:56:09 PM Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes  >:
>
> > Well I checked out the 5400 dollar 560 sel. It is honestly pretty
> straight
> > but someone did a crappy repaint so the clear is flaking off in places,
> the
> > accumulators are done, and it is leaking either power steering fluid or
> sls
> > fluid down the front and on the steering knuckle. But it has good power
> and
> > shifts etc. Idle a bit rough. Interior basically perfect. All gadgets
> work.
> > Did not test cruise control. 120k carfax miles. The repaint is not
> hideous;
> > looks ok from 10 feet, but definitely one of those budget things. A/C
> cool
> > but not cold. Radio clicks but does not turn on; original blaupunkt
> > cassette 1991. I could get used to the paint but chasing oil leaks is not
> > my thing. Body is otherwise straight. Seemed like a 3k car with 120k
> miles.
> > I offered him 4 in the end but doesnt seem like he will take it.
> >
> > On Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 7:36 AM Jim Cathey 
> wrote:
> >
> >> Does the 560 really take premium?
> >>
> >>
> >> I rarely gave mine that.  Only in hot weather does it really
> >> seem to make a difference.  Typically I got maybe 17mpg,
> >> would crest 20 on optimal trips.
> >>
> >> Electronics is a weak point, particularly things like cruise control
> >> and HVAC.  Vacuum pods don't last forever.  I had a lot of trouble
> >> with the self-leveling suspension leaking.  Had a major overheating
> >> event due to the washer tank thermostat coming apart.  Lots of
> >> rubber, in many roles, to go bad.
> >>
> >> You can read about mine until you get bored:
> >>
> >> http://formicapeak.com/~jimc/SEL.html
> >>
> >> Very pleasant car to drive, but definitely not a 240D in terms of
> >> maintenance.
> >>
> >> -- Jim
> >>
> >>
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

3K sounds better.  A family member recently purchased a late 80's 420SEL, he 
loves it.  Beautiful dark red color.  Recently took it on a multi day road 
trip, got mileage on the mid 20s, one tank was upper 20s when they had a tail 
wind all day.

Max Dillon
Charleston SC


Apr 15, 2021 8:56:09 PM Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes :

> Well I checked out the 5400 dollar 560 sel. It is honestly pretty straight
> but someone did a crappy repaint so the clear is flaking off in places, the
> accumulators are done, and it is leaking either power steering fluid or sls
> fluid down the front and on the steering knuckle. But it has good power and
> shifts etc. Idle a bit rough. Interior basically perfect. All gadgets work.
> Did not test cruise control. 120k carfax miles. The repaint is not hideous;
> looks ok from 10 feet, but definitely one of those budget things. A/C cool
> but not cold. Radio clicks but does not turn on; original blaupunkt
> cassette 1991. I could get used to the paint but chasing oil leaks is not
> my thing. Body is otherwise straight. Seemed like a 3k car with 120k miles.
> I offered him 4 in the end but doesnt seem like he will take it.
> 
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 7:36 AM Jim Cathey  wrote:
> 
>> Does the 560 really take premium?
>> 
>> 
>> I rarely gave mine that.  Only in hot weather does it really
>> seem to make a difference.  Typically I got maybe 17mpg,
>> would crest 20 on optimal trips.
>> 
>> Electronics is a weak point, particularly things like cruise control
>> and HVAC.  Vacuum pods don't last forever.  I had a lot of trouble
>> with the self-leveling suspension leaking.  Had a major overheating
>> event due to the washer tank thermostat coming apart.  Lots of
>> rubber, in many roles, to go bad.
>> 
>> You can read about mine until you get bored:
>> 
>> http://formicapeak.com/~jimc/SEL.html
>> 
>> Very pleasant car to drive, but definitely not a 240D in terms of
>> maintenance.
>> 
>> -- Jim
>> 
>> 
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

Well I checked out the 5400 dollar 560 sel. It is honestly pretty straight
but someone did a crappy repaint so the clear is flaking off in places, the
accumulators are done, and it is leaking either power steering fluid or sls
fluid down the front and on the steering knuckle. But it has good power and
shifts etc. Idle a bit rough. Interior basically perfect. All gadgets work.
Did not test cruise control. 120k carfax miles. The repaint is not hideous;
looks ok from 10 feet, but definitely one of those budget things. A/C cool
but not cold. Radio clicks but does not turn on; original blaupunkt
cassette 1991. I could get used to the paint but chasing oil leaks is not
my thing. Body is otherwise straight. Seemed like a 3k car with 120k miles.
I offered him 4 in the end but doesnt seem like he will take it.

On Thu, Apr 15, 2021, 7:36 AM Jim Cathey  wrote:

> Does the 560 really take premium?
>
>
> I rarely gave mine that.  Only in hot weather does it really
> seem to make a difference.  Typically I got maybe 17mpg,
> would crest 20 on optimal trips.
>
> Electronics is a weak point, particularly things like cruise control
> and HVAC.  Vacuum pods don't last forever.  I had a lot of trouble
> with the self-leveling suspension leaking.  Had a major overheating
> event due to the washer tank thermostat coming apart.  Lots of
> rubber, in many roles, to go bad.
>
> You can read about mine until you get bored:
>
> http://formicapeak.com/~jimc/SEL.html
>
> Very pleasant car to drive, but definitely not a 240D in terms of
> maintenance.
>
> -- Jim
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

> Does the 560 really take premium?

I rarely gave mine that.  Only in hot weather does it really
seem to make a difference.  Typically I got maybe 17mpg,
would crest 20 on optimal trips.

Electronics is a weak point, particularly things like cruise control
and HVAC.  Vacuum pods don't last forever.  I had a lot of trouble
with the self-leveling suspension leaking.  Had a major overheating
event due to the washer tank thermostat coming apart.  Lots of
rubber, in many roles, to go bad.

You can read about mine until you get bored:

http://formicapeak.com/~jimc/SEL.html 

Very pleasant car to drive, but definitely not a 240D in terms of maintenance.

-- Jim

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

The 560SEC got fairly abysmal fuel mileage on premium, not that I cared 
much as it was just something fun to drive occsionally. I have not 
driven it in awhile, it has some issue with rough running I have not dug 
into yet.  Probably all the hoses and vac and such in there.  Apparently 
the timing chain(s) needs to be changed at some point along with the 
guides, not a huge job but something to consider.


All that said, the 126 chassis is the best MB ever built and cruising on 
the road at 80 or 90 is a very calming and pleasant experience.  The 560 
will no doubt suck premium at a rather prodigious rate but who cares 
when it is barely breathing at that speed.  Get a parrot to ride on your 
shoulder and pretend to be some turd world despot


--FT

On 4/15/21 10:16 AM, Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes wrote:

People seem to get 20 on the freeway on the forums but honestly I don't
think I have ever calculated the mileage on any of my cars. I am glad I
drove the wagon during residency when I did not have a lot of cash; it was
and still is a lot of car for the money and ran cheap. These days I buy
cars by the pound; so many people get injured in car accidents. The 126 has
dual front airbags and antilock brakes, both of which would be upgrades
from the w123 wagon. It would also probably get similar economy to the m119
in the e420 it would replace.

On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 11:12 PM Allan Streib via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


Fair point, but I think you're talking more like about 12 for that car.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs=5751

Allan

Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes  writes:


Funny, people do not consider 14-20 mpg poor mileage when talking
about a pickup or SUV that they drive like a car most of the time. It
would fit right in here. I just hope it has a large tank so I don't
have to fill up very often. Does the 560 really take premium?

On Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 7:47 PM Allan Streib via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


With the recent trend on the price of gas, feeding premium to that
thirsty machine would probably be at least somewhere on the list of
concerns.

Allan

Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes  writes:


Is there anything not to like about these old V8 w126 sleds? They
must have their pet mechanical issues, just like all the other old
Mercs. There are a couple near me; one is a 91 two owner California
car with ~120k and the paint and interior look like new in the
photos, so it must have lived inside its whole life. I was thinking
4k might be a fair offer on it if it is straight with original
paint and straight panel gaps, depending upon how much other stuff
it might need e.g. suspension bushings, ball joints yada yada. How
many people on here drive one? I recall Jim maybe has one. What are
the big ticket maintenance issues? Climate control?

Thanks,
Karl


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--
--FT

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

People seem to get 20 on the freeway on the forums but honestly I don't
think I have ever calculated the mileage on any of my cars. I am glad I
drove the wagon during residency when I did not have a lot of cash; it was
and still is a lot of car for the money and ran cheap. These days I buy
cars by the pound; so many people get injured in car accidents. The 126 has
dual front airbags and antilock brakes, both of which would be upgrades
from the w123 wagon. It would also probably get similar economy to the m119
in the e420 it would replace.

On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 11:12 PM Allan Streib via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Fair point, but I think you're talking more like about 12 for that car.
>
> https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs=5751
>
> Allan
>
> Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes  writes:
>
> > Funny, people do not consider 14-20 mpg poor mileage when talking
> > about a pickup or SUV that they drive like a car most of the time. It
> > would fit right in here. I just hope it has a large tank so I don't
> > have to fill up very often. Does the 560 really take premium?
> >
> > On Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 7:47 PM Allan Streib via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> >> With the recent trend on the price of gas, feeding premium to that
> >> thirsty machine would probably be at least somewhere on the list of
> >> concerns.
> >>
> >> Allan
> >>
> >> Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes  writes:
> >>
> >> > Is there anything not to like about these old V8 w126 sleds? They
> >> > must have their pet mechanical issues, just like all the other old
> >> > Mercs. There are a couple near me; one is a 91 two owner California
> >> > car with ~120k and the paint and interior look like new in the
> >> > photos, so it must have lived inside its whole life. I was thinking
> >> > 4k might be a fair offer on it if it is straight with original
> >> > paint and straight panel gaps, depending upon how much other stuff
> >> > it might need e.g. suspension bushings, ball joints yada yada. How
> >> > many people on here drive one? I recall Jim maybe has one. What are
> >> > the big ticket maintenance issues? Climate control?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > Karl
> >> >
> >>
>
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Peter Frederick via Mercedes]

W126 has a 30 gal. tank.  My brother got 28 mpg on the highway with his SDL, so 
had enormous range.  At 14, about 400 miles or so, which isn't too bad.  
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

Fair point, but I think you're talking more like about 12 for that car.

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=sbs=5751

Allan

Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes  writes:

> Funny, people do not consider 14-20 mpg poor mileage when talking
> about a pickup or SUV that they drive like a car most of the time. It
> would fit right in here. I just hope it has a large tank so I don't
> have to fill up very often. Does the 560 really take premium?
>
> On Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 7:47 PM Allan Streib via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
>> With the recent trend on the price of gas, feeding premium to that
>> thirsty machine would probably be at least somewhere on the list of
>> concerns.
>>
>> Allan
>>
>> Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes  writes:
>>
>> > Is there anything not to like about these old V8 w126 sleds? They
>> > must have their pet mechanical issues, just like all the other old
>> > Mercs. There are a couple near me; one is a 91 two owner California
>> > car with ~120k and the paint and interior look like new in the
>> > photos, so it must have lived inside its whole life. I was thinking
>> > 4k might be a fair offer on it if it is straight with original
>> > paint and straight panel gaps, depending upon how much other stuff
>> > it might need e.g. suspension bushings, ball joints yada yada. How
>> > many people on here drive one? I recall Jim maybe has one. What are
>> > the big ticket maintenance issues? Climate control?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> > Karl
>> >
>>

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes]

Funny, people do not consider 14-20 mpg poor mileage when talking about a
pickup or SUV that they drive like a car most of the time. It would fit
right in here. I just hope it has a large tank so I don't have to fill up
very often. Does the 560 really take premium?

On Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 7:47 PM Allan Streib via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> With the recent trend on the price of gas, feeding premium to that
> thirsty machine would probably be at least somewhere on the list of
> concerns.
>
> Allan
>
> Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes  writes:
>
> > Is there anything not to like about these old V8 w126 sleds? They must
> have
> > their pet mechanical issues, just like all the other old Mercs. There
> are a
> > couple near me; one is a 91 two owner California car with ~120k and the
> > paint and interior look like new in the photos, so it must have lived
> > inside its whole life. I was thinking 4k might be a fair offer on it if
> it
> > is straight with original paint and straight panel gaps, depending upon
> how
> > much other stuff it might need e.g. suspension bushings, ball joints yada
> > yada. How many people on here drive one? I recall Jim maybe has one. What
> > are the big ticket maintenance issues? Climate control?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Karl
> >
>
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[OK Don via Mercedes]

I'm assuming that the 560 version of the M117 has the same intake layout as
the iron block 450 version. If so, it's likely that the myriad rubber hoses
under the top intake housing are all rock hard and leaking badly, which
yields an engine that will barely run, if it starts at all. Those bits were
hard to come by in the early 2000's, don't know about availability now.
Speaking of rubber bits, the vacuum pods that run almost everything inside
the body are likely toast by now as well. Most are rather difficult to
reach 
Other than that, the W126 is a wonderful chassis!
My M117 ws in a 450SLC, and the W126 I had was a 300SDL -- not no direct
experience with the 560 SEL.

On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 9:47 PM Allan Streib via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> With the recent trend on the price of gas, feeding premium to that
> thirsty machine would probably be at least somewhere on the list of
> concerns.
>
> Allan
>
> Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes  writes:
>
> > Is there anything not to like about these old V8 w126 sleds? They must
> have
> > their pet mechanical issues, just like all the other old Mercs. There
> are a
> > couple near me; one is a 91 two owner California car with ~120k and the
> > paint and interior look like new in the photos, so it must have lived
> > inside its whole life. I was thinking 4k might be a fair offer on it if
> it
> > is straight with original paint and straight panel gaps, depending upon
> how
> > much other stuff it might need e.g. suspension bushings, ball joints yada
> > yada. How many people on here drive one? I recall Jim maybe has one. What
> > are the big ticket maintenance issues? Climate control?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Karl
> >
>
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-- 
OK Don

"Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to
pause and reflect." Mark Twain

“Basic research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I am doing.”  Wernher
Von Braun
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Allan Streib via Mercedes]

With the recent trend on the price of gas, feeding premium to that
thirsty machine would probably be at least somewhere on the list of
concerns.

Allan

Karl Wittnebel via Mercedes  writes:

> Is there anything not to like about these old V8 w126 sleds? They must have
> their pet mechanical issues, just like all the other old Mercs. There are a
> couple near me; one is a 91 two owner California car with ~120k and the
> paint and interior look like new in the photos, so it must have lived
> inside its whole life. I was thinking 4k might be a fair offer on it if it
> is straight with original paint and straight panel gaps, depending upon how
> much other stuff it might need e.g. suspension bushings, ball joints yada
> yada. How many people on here drive one? I recall Jim maybe has one. What
> are the big ticket maintenance issues? Climate control?
>
> Thanks,
> Karl
>

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL advice

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Donate it, since selling would probably net you $500 if that.

On Sun, Jan 10, 2021 at 7:56 PM Jim Cathey via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I don't have any current pictures, yet.  The car is in Spokane, WA.
>
> The wife has always hated the car, due to its circumstances of arrival.
> SWDNF (She Who Does Not Forgive/Forget) wants it gone, and I
> work from home, so a nap refuge vehicle is no longer of any use.
>
> -- Jim
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL advice

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

I don't have any current pictures, yet.  The car is in Spokane, WA.

The wife has always hated the car, due to its circumstances of arrival.
SWDNF (She Who Does Not Forgive/Forget) wants it gone, and I
work from home, so a nap refuge vehicle is no longer of any use.

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL advice

[Kaleb Striplin via Mercedes]

pics, location?

On 1/10/2021 2:55 PM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes wrote:

The time has come to move my 1990 560SEL napmobile on.  Rough cosmetic
condition, was guardrailed.  (Have matching front fender and front door, 
though.)
I haven't been driving it, and the last time I went to move it the starter 
would not engage.
(Whir  Didn't respond to BFH.)  Last thing I want to do is to have to 
put a new
starter in it.  Advice?  My wife says 'donate' it.  I'd rather sell it for what 
it's worth.
Any suggestions?  I've had the car since 2009.

Current list:

Donate to the Union Gospel Mission.
Sell as-is.  Parts, basically.
Repair starter, hopefully sell for incrementally more than that cost.

Anybody want a good deal on a project?

-- Jim


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Re: [MBZ] 560-SEL 338 CUBIC INC 5.6 V6... FUEL PROBLEM.. RUNS THEN SHUTS OFF.

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

On 2020-11-12 15:58, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes wrote:

Those 2 missing cylinders might have something to do with it

https://jacksonville.craigslist.org/ctd/d/interlachen-mercedes-benz/7229801312.html


Sounds like a bad fuel pump relay.

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

>
> Good work. How are you wiring the LEDs?  To monitor if power is being
> passed by the devices properly?


Internal to the PBU, I have nestled a red and a blue LED behind two of the
switches.  The red LED is behind the DEF button, and is wired so that it
turns on when the monovalve is activated.  The blue LED is behind the NORM
button, and is wires so that it turns on when the Klima is actuated.  I did
this in particular so that I could tell if it was the monovalve or the PBU
at fault when I wasn't getting heat.  The blue LED will show the AC
compressor cycling.

-- Jim
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

Good work. How are you wiringvthe LEDs?  To monitor if power is being passed by 
the devices properly?

--R
Sent from iPhone

> On Oct 28, 2017, at 9:19 PM, Jim Cathey via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> The heat control has been flaky for some time, and as things cool down
> it's getting more critical.  Just the lightest touch on the control
> wheel would make it cut in and out.  (The monovalve LED I added some
> time ago is really crucial for this kind of diagnostic.)  Today I
> finally made some time and removed the ACC panel.  I removed the
> potentiometer from the PCB and opened it up.  It's custom, no way to
> come up with a replacement, except out of another unit.  I cleaned it
> out, and used DeOxIt fader spray on it, and did a very light
> wire-brushing of the circular tracks and the sliding metal fingers.
> According to my meter, the resistance change is smooth, with no
> intermittency.  We'll see if this works any better.  While I was there
> I added another LED, this one for showing AC energization, behind the
> center button.  I used the other LED from the same toy, but used the
> blue side for this function.  I used another 680 ohm resistor from the
> junk box, and hooked the series combination between the X1-7 (Klima)
> pin and power.  Also, one of the two illumination lamps was
> intermittent, so I replaced it with a new one.  All this took a little
> over two hours.  On the test drive today it behaved well, but as it
> was a warm day nothing much was proven.  The next cold morning drive
> should be more definitive.
> 
> -- Jim
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL high idle

[Jim Cathey]

I caved recently and sent the SEL to the spa, which has taken
care of the worst of the miscellaneous fluid leaks.  I hope.
When I took it in to get licensed it failed its stink test,
due to its intermittent high idle.

That old thing.

I did some research and decided to try moving the brass
plug in the idle air valve, which I'd already cleaned and
found seemingly functional on the test bench.  I also resoldered
the OVP relay, which did _not_ want to open.  These two measures,
at least, were suitable to try at home.  After this I tried the
car again, and it seems to hold a nice low idle, even when hot.

I'll try the licensing thing again tomorrow.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Jim Cathey]

Wretched car.

I put the car up on ramps and started it, let it get good and warm.
It was like a gentle warm rain under the car, all the various fluids
dripping from above.  The most immediately disturbing, and the last
one to start, was coolant.  I had thought that the heater core was
holed and this was coming down from the condensate drains, but I
no longer think so.  I could see the drains pretty well from below,
and they were dry.  The coolant, though dripping from the front of the
transmission, was coming from well forward of that point.  It was very
hard to tell, but it is definitely dripping from the head at the rear
corner of #4.  I can't really see if it's coming from above there, it
may well be.  Or not.  Can the head leak coolant readily from there?
I tried to examine all coolant hoses back in the area and all seemed
dry, but of course you can't see everything 100%.  Head gasket?  The
car did get pretty hot when it lost its coolant through the windshield
washer tank.  Did the head crack?  The block?  Anybody know if the car's
prone to leaking coolant back by #4?

There is ATF everywhere back at the pan.  On everything, especially
the exhaust pipes.  And dripping.  Can't even tell where it's
originating it's so messy.

Power steering fluid, of course.  But that's the normal bad seal
weeping.  The least of the problems I'd say.

And something clear-browny and runny dripping from the ATF cooler line
where it straps to the oil pan.  But it's not red, I think this is
suspension oil running down from above and picking up a lot of
dirt/grime along the way.  I can't really see where it is coming from,
but the two fittings on the pump seem dry enough, though the bottom of
the body is wet with suspension oil.  I've re-sealed that twice, I
probably need to get another pump.)  I did note a flaw in the sealing
surface of the pump body.)  That won't be easy.  That may not be the
only leak in the area, the high-pressure line looks like it joins a
rubber hose, it looks pretty wet there.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Rich Thomas]

Well you won't have to worry about underbody rust.

--R

On 5/11/2011 11:00 AM, Jim Cathey wrote:

Wretched car.

I put the car up on ramps and started it, let it get good and warm.
It was like a gentle warm rain under the car, all the various fluids
dripping from above.  The most immediately disturbing, and the last
one to start, was coolant.  I had thought that the heater core was
holed and this was coming down from the condensate drains, but I
no longer think so.  I could see the drains pretty well from below,
and they were dry.  The coolant, though dripping from the front of the
transmission, was coming from well forward of that point.  It was very
hard to tell, but it is definitely dripping from the head at the rear
corner of #4.  I can't really see if it's coming from above there, it
may well be.  Or not.  Can the head leak coolant readily from there?
I tried to examine all coolant hoses back in the area and all seemed
dry, but of course you can't see everything 100%.  Head gasket?  The
car did get pretty hot when it lost its coolant through the windshield
washer tank.  Did the head crack?  The block?  Anybody know if the car's
prone to leaking coolant back by #4?

There is ATF everywhere back at the pan.  On everything, especially
the exhaust pipes.  And dripping.  Can't even tell where it's
originating it's so messy.

Power steering fluid, of course.  But that's the normal bad seal
weeping.  The least of the problems I'd say.

And something clear-browny and runny dripping from the ATF cooler line
where it straps to the oil pan.  But it's not red, I think this is
suspension oil running down from above and picking up a lot of
dirt/grime along the way.  I can't really see where it is coming from,
but the two fittings on the pump seem dry enough, though the bottom of
the body is wet with suspension oil.  I've re-sealed that twice, I
probably need to get another pump.)  I did note a flaw in the sealing
surface of the pump body.)  That won't be easy.  That may not be the
only leak in the area, the high-pressure line looks like it joins a
rubber hose, it looks pretty wet there.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Gerry Archer]

It was like a gentle warm rain under the car, all the various fluids
dripping from above.
Jim

Truly a memorable and poetic line.
A paean to the car fixit buffs of ancient and modern times.
Gerry

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Max Dillon]

Yes, I second the nomination for the Quotes page.

Kaleb? Maybe a reading of the quotes at the Atlanta GTG is in order. Whose got 
good pipes?

-Max
-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Gerry Archer arche...@embarqmail.com wrote:

It was like a gentle warm rain under the car, all the various fluids dripping 
from above. Jim_
Truly a memorable and poetic line. A paean to the car fixit buffs of ancient 
and modern times. Gerry_
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Jim Cathey]

It was like a gentle warm rain under the car, all the various fluids
dripping from above.


Translation: I couldn't find a place to lie under there where
hot crap wouldn't be dropping on me.  Made it hard to investigate!

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Jim Cathey]

It's official: I'm starting to hate this car.  My wife went to pick up
our son from school yesterday, and called me to say that the car was
dripping.  I had her drop by so I could take a look.  Coolant, from
the transmission area, a pretty significant flow.  (The level wasn't
really down much, though.)  My guess is that the heater core is
leaking, probably from the boiling-hot hammering it took, and it's
dripping out the condensate drain.  There's another possibility or
two, though, more investigation is required.  I'm _not_ happy!

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Dimitri Seretakis]

Your problems aside, that is a really nice car. So incredibly well built and 
comfortable and fast. These things seem to go for nothing nowadays-perhaps due 
to the abysmal gas mileage.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 5, 2011, at 9:51 AM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote:

It's official: I'm starting to hate this car.  My wife went to pick up
our son from school yesterday, and called me to say that the car was
dripping.  I had her drop by so I could take a look.  Coolant, from
the transmission area, a pretty significant flow.  (The level wasn't
really down much, though.)  My guess is that the heater core is
leaking, probably from the boiling-hot hammering it took, and it's
dripping out the condensate drain.  There's another possibility or
two, though, more investigation is required.  I'm _not_ happy!

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Mitch Haley]

What if it is woefully 'out of tune', but switches from open loop to closed loop 
mode at a certain temperature, checks the O2 sensor and adjusts itself?


Mitch.

Jim Cathey wrote:

So I've been driving the 560 SEL lately and it seems to me that it has
one other odd behavior to go along with its variably-high and
sometimes rough idle: as it's warming up it is somewhat puny and rough
running, but as the engine temperature gauge approaches normal
operating temperature it's almost as if a switch is flipped and the
car surges forward a bit and smooths out.  It's more responsive to the
throttle and stronger, you have to back off the pedal a bit.  I'm not
certain, but it may be that the idle is not really that high until
then.  I'm wondering if one of the engine warmup sensors is off, or if
what it's hooked to is broken or maladjusted.  I should look into this
sometime.



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Alex Chamberlain]

 Jim Cathey wrote:

 So I've been driving the 560 SEL lately and it seems to me that it has
 one other odd behavior to go along with its variably-high and
 sometimes rough idle: as it's warming up it is somewhat puny and rough
 running, but as the engine temperature gauge approaches normal
 operating temperature it's almost as if a switch is flipped and the
 car surges forward a bit and smooths out.

Mitch said:
 What if it is woefully 'out of tune', but switches from open loop to closed
 loop mode at a certain temperature, checks the O2 sensor and adjusts itself?


My Euro 500SEL exhibits very similar behavior. Would it have an O2
sensor, considering that (judging by the smell of the exhaust) it has
virtually no emissions controls?

Alex

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[E M]

I think your car has a WUR ?  Maybe it's sticking a bit.  I believe it has a
bi-metal strip and an electrical connection.  They're usually mounted on a
warm part of the engine, so if the electrical portion fails, the housing
will still get warm from the engine mounting, and activate the bi-metal
strip.  If it's running too rich at first, if will feel like it's bogging
down when you get on it.  As it leans out, performance improves.

Maybe check the O2 as Mitch says, they fail in the rich mode.  I've found
though, if they are bad, when you get on the gas, they bog down as well, as
the system goes too rich.

Just a shot, hope someone with more knowledge can help out.

Ed
300E

On 4 February 2011 09:32, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote:

 So I've been driving the 560 SEL lately and it seems to me that it has
 one other odd behavior to go along with its variably-high and
 sometimes rough idle: as it's warming up it is somewhat puny and rough
 running, but as the engine temperature gauge approaches normal
 operating temperature it's almost as if a switch is flipped and the
 car surges forward a bit and smooths out.  It's more responsive to the
 throttle and stronger, you have to back off the pedal a bit.  I'm not
 certain, but it may be that the idle is not really that high until
 then.  I'm wondering if one of the engine warmup sensors is off, or if
 what it's hooked to is broken or maladjusted.  I should look into this
 sometime.

 -- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Dieselhead]

Daughter's 380SL ran fast at idle and variable speeds.  We found the 
timing way off, and fuel turned up high.


I found the vacuum lines all messed up.  Connecting them properly 
didn't seem to make a difference.  Idle air solenoid is sticky. 
Kleb was supposed to bring me a replacement.  Still don't have it. 
Still doesn't run the way I think it should.  Now it tends to die at 
idle.  Seems like there are some similarities to your 560.   Maybe 
there is a clue here for you.  I am interested in your findings later 
on.





So I've been driving the 560 SEL lately and it seems to me that it has
one other odd behavior to go along with its variably-high and
sometimes rough idle: as it's warming up it is somewhat puny and rough
running, but as the engine temperature gauge approaches normal
operating temperature it's almost as if a switch is flipped and the
car surges forward a bit and smooths out.  It's more responsive to the
throttle and stronger, you have to back off the pedal a bit.  I'm not
certain, but it may be that the idle is not really that high until
then.  I'm wondering if one of the engine warmup sensors is off, or if
what it's hooked to is broken or maladjusted.  I should look into this
sometime.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[E M]

My understanding is, the real purpose of the O2 is to keep the air and fuel
metered at the proper stoichiometric ratio that the cats require to
operate.  So I would guess if you don't have cats on your car, you probably
don't have an O2.  With computers, they can help to workout the driving
needs, and adjust the fuel and air as required, but primarily always within
or close to that magic figure 13;1 or14:1, something like that?  It will go
outside these parameters at times when needed, like starting up, or under
really heavy load, where it will go rich as needed.

That's my understanding anyway, but I'm no engineer.

Ed
300E

On 4 February 2011 10:20, Alex Chamberlain apchamberl...@gmail.com wrote:

  Jim Cathey wrote:
 
  So I've been driving the 560 SEL lately and it seems to me that it has
  one other odd behavior to go along with its variably-high and
  sometimes rough idle: as it's warming up it is somewhat puny and rough
  running, but as the engine temperature gauge approaches normal
  operating temperature it's almost as if a switch is flipped and the
  car surges forward a bit and smooths out.

 Mitch said:
  What if it is woefully 'out of tune', but switches from open loop to
 closed
  loop mode at a certain temperature, checks the O2 sensor and adjusts
 itself?
 

 My Euro 500SEL exhibits very similar behavior. Would it have an O2
 sensor, considering that (judging by the smell of the exhaust) it has
 virtually no emissions controls?

 Alex

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Jim Cathey]

I think your car has a WUR?


It has something, I'm sure, but not the classic bi-metallic
WUR from the 450 days.  This is a 1990 car.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[OK Don]

Reminders me of the 300SDL that had the idle control sensor and AC high
engine temp sensor connectors switched -- the AC would run till the engine
hit operatin temp, then it would turn off. The idle wasn't affected that I
could tell, but it was a great running 603. Both sensors were in one housing
- two connectors on top.

If yours are switched (I don't know what a 560 has - my M117 was a '78 450),
it might do something simlar, but to the idle circuit.

On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 8:32 AM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote:

 So I've been driving the 560 SEL lately and it seems to me that it has
 one other odd behavior to go along with its variably-high and
 sometimes rough idle: as it's warming up it is somewhat puny and rough
 running, but as the engine temperature gauge approaches normal
 operating temperature it's almost as if a switch is flipped and the
 car surges forward a bit and smooths out.  It's more responsive to the
 throttle and stronger, you have to back off the pedal a bit.  I'm not
 certain, but it may be that the idle is not really that high until
 then.  I'm wondering if one of the engine warmup sensors is off, or if
 what it's hooked to is broken or maladjusted.  I should look into this
 sometime.


 -- Jim --

OK Don
2001 ML320
1992 300D 2.5T
1990 300D 2.5T
1997 Plymouth Grand Voyager
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Hendrik Fay]

Given this car has KE jetronic injection it will have an O2 sensor, as 
info from the sensor tells the computer how to adjust the mixture via 
the EHA.

I may or may not have cats.
Timing issues are usually to do with the ignition computer but it is 
expensive so guesstimate replacement is not advised.


Hendrik
who has an o2 sensor and a couple of cats, one of which seems to have 
gone walkabouts as we haven't seen him for a day or so


E M wrote:

My understanding is, the real purpose of the O2 is to keep the air and fuel
metered at the proper stoichiometric ratio that the cats require to
operate.  So I would guess if you don't have cats on your car, you probably
don't have an O2.  With computers, they can help to workout the driving
needs, and adjust the fuel and air as required, but primarily always within
or close to that magic figure 13;1 or14:1, something like that?  It will go
outside these parameters at times when needed, like starting up, or under
really heavy load, where it will go rich as needed.

That's my understanding anyway, but I'm no engineer.

Ed
300E
  
  



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL rear suspension leak

[Jim Cathey]

After a day the car still is driving right, and there's
no appreciable change in the tank fluid level.  Fixed?

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL rear suspension leak

[Craig]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 07:55:10 -0800 Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net
wrote:

 After a day the car still is driving right, and there's
 no appreciable change in the tank fluid level.  Fixed?

Sure seems like that is a possibility.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL rear suspension leak

[Jim Cathey]

Well, the $9 repair of my rear SLS leak is provisionally successful.
The story:

I jacked up the back of the car, high as I could get it.  Two jacks,
two jackstands.  I sprayed PB Blaster on all the hydraulic fittings.
The height valve may have been messed with, the locknut isn't anywhere
near the socket on one end.  Looks to me like the shaft seal on the
left cylinder is blown.  Won't know for sure until I get it out.  Need
to do some reading, next.

I opened up the trunk to dry out, water had gotten in.

I did some reading, so I felt qualified to remove the rear seat.
(This is harder on a car with the reclining rear seat option, I've
done plenty of the others.  The manual wasn't very helpful at all.)
First remove the two 10mm bolt heads visible along the seat bottom,
near where the release clips are on a non-recliner.  That lets the
seat bottom lift up and out, and you have to unplug the heating
elements along the way.  (Unplug the backs, too.)  The seat back was
trickier.  Remove the _three_ 10mm bolts that are tucked under the
seat back, one of them in the center underneath the plastic shield for
the recliner motor, and _not_ the two visible ones that are attached
to the geared track.  That lets you lift up on the seat back,
releasing the upper posts from the holes in the reclining rack.  Then
the seat back comes out of the car.  _Now_ remove the two 10mm bolts
holding the reclining back frame to the geared tracks, and flip the
frame up enough to allow the sound padding to be pulled back.  This
exposes the area where the two plastic body plugs have to be removed,
but first you might have to unclip the radio amplifier and the seat
heater relay to get them out of the way.  Once everything is out of
the way the two plastic body plugs may be pried out, exposing the
hydraulic strut connections.

I got the control link removed from the valve.  To grip the flats on
the ball I needed a thin 8-9mm wrench , which I didn't really have,
but I made do with the prybar I'd made for the 380 SL trunk hinge pin
operation.  It gripped well enough somehow to crack loose the nut.
That and a 10mm wrench and I got the link loose from the valve's
control arm.  I then had room enough to swing the 11mm wrench on the
bleed screw.  The valve body wanted to twist on its sheet-metal mount,
so I used an 18 Crescent-style wrench to put a hold on it.  I had the
piece of tubing I use for bleeding clutch slave cylinders on the
nipple, with the other end in a clean ATF bottle.  Rather than the 1/2
liter that _should_ come out, I got maybe half of the tubing filled.
Yeah, the system was empty all right!

Anyway, a 17mm offset box wrench cracked loose the hydraulic fitting.
I removed the two washers and the banjo fitting and wrapped the open
bits with aluminum foil to keep out dirt.  I got the two 17mm bolts on
the bottom removed, but the 17mm nut on top didn't want to crack
loose.  I should have tried the penetrant first, because I managed to
badly twist the 8mm flat that's on the top of the strut.  Oops!  I put
penetrant on and left it to soak.  A little red heat would cure the
problem, but applying said heat would be unwise as the gas tank is
right next to the nut.

After a couple of hours of soaking I got out a rubber mallet and a
stick of wood.  I wedged the wood through the keyhole shaped body hole
and spun the strut with the wrench until the hydraulic fitting wedged
up against the wood.  I then put the vise grips on the twisted flat on
top the strut and struck the wrench with the mallet.  Between the
penetrant and the shock transmitted against the vise grips and the
stick the nut popped loose.  It was then a simple matter to raise the
tire a bit with the jack, to release the tension on the strut and then
remove it bodily from the car.  The strut seemed to be in very good
shape, apart from the leaking.  MB P/N 126 320 46 13, Sachs P/N 012400
102 178 R.J  (According to the EPC, this is used in 1988+ cars.)  The
ruined accordion boot looks like MB P/N 448 006 10 0?, the last digit
(and a half, really) is obscured by a vent hole.  This part number
doesn't seem to be in the EPC.  There's also a 53932 and a 1-2 molded
into it, and a mystery logo that looks a bit like a hand giving the
'OK' sign.

I cleaned it off some and pulled back the damaged accordion boot.  I
could see a circular snap ring inside the strut body, so I got out a
bar clamp and used it between the protruding shoulder of the plug and
the shoulder at the top of the strut.  Modest pressure caused the plug
to push in fractionally, releasing the tension on the snap ring.
Unfortunately I was out of time to proceed further.  It is clear that
this strut isn't much like the one I found the rebuild article on.

A little digging with some small screwdrivers got the snap ring out of
the strut, whereupon the end sealing plug could be pulled out.  There
was a second snap ring inside that kept in the piston, that came out
much the same.  The piston itself has what looks like an 

Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL rear suspension leak

[Allan Streib]

Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net writes:

 It might be possible to find something from a place like Gardan Mfg.,
 but their off-the-shelf selection didn't look that promising.  The
 boot needs an extension range of 1.75-6.5 (overall length), an
 outside diameter of no more than 2.25, and a clamping flange of 1.5
 on one end, and 7/8 on the other.

Wonder if the Astoria Flexx boot for rack and pinion units would work?

http://www.astoria2000.com/fb4000info.html

I used their CV boots on my 300D and they are holding up fine so far.

Allan
-- 
1983 300D

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL rear suspension leak

[Max Dillon]

Fascinating!

My '87 300TD struts that failed had no accordion boots left at all.  The
nice used struts from a 300TE had very nice boots; I think that good boots =
long life.

-Max

-Original Message-
From: mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com]
On Behalf Of Jim Cathey
Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 7:35 PM
To: Mercedes Discussion List
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL rear suspension leak

Well, the $9 repair of my rear SLS leak is provisionally successful.
The story:

I jacked up the back of the car, high as I could get it.  Two jacks,
two jackstands.  I sprayed PB Blaster on all the hydraulic fittings.
The height valve may have been messed with, the locknut isn't anywhere
near the socket on one end.  Looks to me like the shaft seal on the
left cylinder is blown.  Won't know for sure until I get it out.  Need
to do some reading, next.

I opened up the trunk to dry out, water had gotten in.

I did some reading, so I felt qualified to remove the rear seat.
(This is harder on a car with the reclining rear seat option, I've
done plenty of the others.  The manual wasn't very helpful at all.)
First remove the two 10mm bolt heads visible along the seat bottom,
near where the release clips are on a non-recliner.  That lets the
seat bottom lift up and out, and you have to unplug the heating
elements along the way.  (Unplug the backs, too.)  The seat back was
trickier.  Remove the _three_ 10mm bolts that are tucked under the
seat back, one of them in the center underneath the plastic shield for
the recliner motor, and _not_ the two visible ones that are attached
to the geared track.  That lets you lift up on the seat back,
releasing the upper posts from the holes in the reclining rack.  Then
the seat back comes out of the car.  _Now_ remove the two 10mm bolts
holding the reclining back frame to the geared tracks, and flip the
frame up enough to allow the sound padding to be pulled back.  This
exposes the area where the two plastic body plugs have to be removed,
but first you might have to unclip the radio amplifier and the seat
heater relay to get them out of the way.  Once everything is out of
the way the two plastic body plugs may be pried out, exposing the
hydraulic strut connections.

I got the control link removed from the valve.  To grip the flats on
the ball I needed a thin 8-9mm wrench , which I didn't really have,
but I made do with the prybar I'd made for the 380 SL trunk hinge pin
operation.  It gripped well enough somehow to crack loose the nut.
That and a 10mm wrench and I got the link loose from the valve's
control arm.  I then had room enough to swing the 11mm wrench on the
bleed screw.  The valve body wanted to twist on its sheet-metal mount,
so I used an 18 Crescent-style wrench to put a hold on it.  I had the
piece of tubing I use for bleeding clutch slave cylinders on the
nipple, with the other end in a clean ATF bottle.  Rather than the 1/2
liter that _should_ come out, I got maybe half of the tubing filled.
Yeah, the system was empty all right!

Anyway, a 17mm offset box wrench cracked loose the hydraulic fitting.
I removed the two washers and the banjo fitting and wrapped the open
bits with aluminum foil to keep out dirt.  I got the two 17mm bolts on
the bottom removed, but the 17mm nut on top didn't want to crack
loose.  I should have tried the penetrant first, because I managed to
badly twist the 8mm flat that's on the top of the strut.  Oops!  I put
penetrant on and left it to soak.  A little red heat would cure the
problem, but applying said heat would be unwise as the gas tank is
right next to the nut.

After a couple of hours of soaking I got out a rubber mallet and a
stick of wood.  I wedged the wood through the keyhole shaped body hole
and spun the strut with the wrench until the hydraulic fitting wedged
up against the wood.  I then put the vise grips on the twisted flat on
top the strut and struck the wrench with the mallet.  Between the
penetrant and the shock transmitted against the vise grips and the
stick the nut popped loose.  It was then a simple matter to raise the
tire a bit with the jack, to release the tension on the strut and then
remove it bodily from the car.  The strut seemed to be in very good
shape, apart from the leaking.  MB P/N 126 320 46 13, Sachs P/N 012400
102 178 R.J  (According to the EPC, this is used in 1988+ cars.)  The
ruined accordion boot looks like MB P/N 448 006 10 0?, the last digit
(and a half, really) is obscured by a vent hole.  This part number
doesn't seem to be in the EPC.  There's also a 53932 and a 1-2 molded
into it, and a mystery logo that looks a bit like a hand giving the
'OK' sign.

I cleaned it off some and pulled back the damaged accordion boot.  I
could see a circular snap ring inside the strut body, so I got out a
bar clamp and used it between the protruding shoulder of the plug and
the shoulder at the top of the strut.  Modest pressure caused the plug
to push in fractionally, releasing the tension

Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL rear suspension leak

[Peter Frederick]

Hot damn!

I suspect air pressure isn't quite adequate to hold the car up, eh?

Great job!

Peter

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL rear suspension leak

[David Bruckmann]

I presume she took note that this is a mineral oil hydraulic system (not 
synthetic/glycol-based). The mineral oil will eat rubbers not meant for it and 
vice-versa.

On 2011-01-09, at 16:34, mercedes-requ...@okiebenz.com wrote:

 They looked pretty normal
 to her and she got out the calipers for a bit of measurement and then
 ran upstairs.

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL rear suspension leak

[Jim Cathey]

I presume she took note that this is a mineral oil hydraulic system 
(not synthetic/glycol-based). The mineral oil will eat rubbers not 
meant for it and vice-versa.


Dunno.  It was a hydraulic cylinder shop, I think I may
have mentioned mineral oil.  Maybe not.  Aren't most
bulldozer cyls on mineral oil?

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL rear suspension leak

[Jim Cathey]

Wonder if the Astoria Flexx boot for rack and pinion units would work?
http://www.astoria2000.com/fb4000info.html


That looks pretty interesting!

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL -- now hyd cylinder

[Jim Cathey]

I have a really old hydraulic floor jack with a leaky cylinder, have 
thought for some time to try to rehabilitate it.  Are those similarly 
arranged?


I think they can be repaired, but I've never done one.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL -- now hyd cylinder

[Dieselhead]

Rebuild depends on design and availability of parts.  If the seals 
are all orings, you are in luck as long as metal parts are not worn 
badly.  I think some jack pumps use a cup in the pump, and it may be 
hard to find replacement cups.


I have worked on hyd cylinders that are in the range of 100 years 
old, but still perform regular duty made with leather cups.  The 
leather cups are available. The cylinders run and work ok at 2000 
psi.  One I saw being operated at 2750 psi on an 8 cylinder.  that 
is 16 pi x 2750 or 70 tons on a piece of leather.



I have a really old hydraulic floor jack with a leaky cylinder, 
have thought for some time to try to rehabilitate it.  Are those 
similarly arranged?


I think they can be repaired, but I've never done one.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL -- now hyd cylinder

[Craig]

On Thu, 23 Dec 2010 07:41:43 -0600 Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have worked on hyd cylinders that are in the range of 100 years old,
 but still perform regular duty made with leather cups.  The leather
 cups are available. The cylinders run and work ok at 2000 psi.  One I
 saw being operated at 2750 psi on an 8 cylinder.  that is 16 pi x 2750
 or 70 tons on a piece of leather.

But the leather is most surely in compression between the hydraulic fluid
and steel cylinder walls and a steel piston attached to the cylinder's
rod, with only a small part exposed to the gap it's sealing.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL -- now hyd cylinder

[Dieselhead]

Yes, that is why leather can work in such a situation



On Thu, 23 Dec 2010 07:41:43 -0600 Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com wrote:


 I have worked on hyd cylinders that are in the range of 100 years old,
 but still perform regular duty made with leather cups.  The leather
 cups are available. The cylinders run and work ok at 2000 psi.  One I
 saw being operated at 2750 psi on an 8 cylinder.  that is 16 pi x 2750
 or 70 tons on a piece of leather.


But the leather is most surely in compression between the hydraulic fluid
and steel cylinder walls and a steel piston attached to the cylinder's
rod, with only a small part exposed to the gap it's sealing.


Craig

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Max Dillon]

We'll be eagerly awaiting your results - I REALLY wish I hadn't thrown out the 
bad struts from my '87 wagon two summers ago.

How did you already get the old apart?

-Max





From: Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 2:18:46 AM
Subject: [MBZ] 560 SEL

A set of seals for the SLS rear strut was $8.87 today.
Wish me luck!

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Dieselhead]

The 87 TD struts are different and I have been told by several 
different authoritative sources that they are not rebuildable.  It 
hurt badly to throw out the terribly leaky struts from the 88TE, 
after I had to pay for new struts.  But I looked over the greasy 
hulks and did not see any way to get them apart without total 
destruction.  So, I tossed them.   You did the right thing.



We'll be eagerly awaiting your results - I REALLY wish I hadn't thrown out the
bad struts from my '87 wagon two summers ago.

How did you already get the old apart?

-Max





From: Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 2:18:46 AM
Subject: [MBZ] 560 SEL

A set of seals for the SLS rear strut was $8.87 today.
Wish me luck!

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Jim Cathey]

How did you already get the old apart?


Snap rings hold it [strut] together.
You need two thin wrenches to get the
ball joint off the bottom.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Max Dillon]

OK, didn't realize there was a difference between 126 struts and 124.

-Max





From: Dieselhead 126die...@gmail.com
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 9:04:41 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

The 87 TD struts are different and I have been told by several 
different authoritative sources that they are not rebuildable.  It 
hurt badly to throw out the terribly leaky struts from the 88TE, 
after I had to pay for new struts.  But I looked over the greasy 
hulks and did not see any way to get them apart without total 
destruction.  So, I tossed them.   You did the right thing.

We'll be eagerly awaiting your results - I REALLY wish I hadn't thrown out the
bad struts from my '87 wagon two summers ago.

How did you already get the old apart?

-Max





From: Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 2:18:46 AM
Subject: [MBZ] 560 SEL

A set of seals for the SLS rear strut was $8.87 today.
Wish me luck!

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Jim Cathey]

The 87 TD struts are different and I have been told by several 
different authoritative sources that they are not rebuildable.


Did you see:

http://bmwe32.masscom.net/gavin/LAD_strut_rebuild.htm

Does that crimped-on cap look anything like your strut?
Mine doesn't have that.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Alex Chamberlain]

On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 6:37 AM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote:
 The 87 TD struts are different and I have been told by several different
 authoritative sources that they are not rebuildable.

 Did you see:

 http://bmwe32.masscom.net/gavin/LAD_strut_rebuild.htm


That page agrees with what I've read about the internals of the
struts---they are a VERY simple mechanism and the only hard part is
just getting them apart to get to the seals.  Should be a lot easier
job than rebuilding, say, a motorcycle fork (which people do all the
time).  I too will be following your progress closely, Jim!

Alex

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL -- now hyd cylinder

[Rich Thomas]

I have a really old hydraulic floor jack with a leaky cylinder, have 
thought for some time to try to rehabilitate it.  Are those similarly 
arranged?  Parts available?  Or should I take it off and take it to a 
shop and have them deal with it?


--R

On 12/22/2010 9:37 AM, Jim Cathey wrote:
The 87 TD struts are different and I have been told by several 
different authoritative sources that they are not rebuildable.


Did you see:

http://bmwe32.masscom.net/gavin/LAD_strut_rebuild.htm

Does that crimped-on cap look anything like your strut?
Mine doesn't have that.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL -- now hyd cylinder

[Max Dillon]

Have one of those dead floor jacks also, I have to say that I've lost 
confidence 
in the thing at this point and I'm not sure I'd want myself or anyone else to 
use it.

-Max





From: Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Wed, December 22, 2010 10:05:47 AM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL -- now hyd cylinder

I have a really old hydraulic floor jack with a leaky cylinder, have 
thought for some time to try to rehabilitate it.  Are those similarly 
arranged?  Parts available?  Or should I take it off and take it to a 
shop and have them deal with it?

--R

On 12/22/2010 9:37 AM, Jim Cathey wrote:
 The 87 TD struts are different and I have been told by several 
 different authoritative sources that they are not rebuildable.

 Did you see:

 http://bmwe32.masscom.net/gavin/LAD_strut_rebuild.htm

 Does that crimped-on cap look anything like your strut?
 Mine doesn't have that.

 -- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL -- now hyd cylinder

[Mitch Haley]

Rich Thomas wrote:
I have a really old hydraulic floor jack with a leaky cylinder, have 
thought for some time to try to rehabilitate it.  Are those similarly 
arranged?  Parts available?  Or should I take it off and take it to a 
shop and have them deal with it?


Hydraulic cylinders are usually held together with a screw on cap.
Always fun finding a way to apply huge torque to the cylinder body (and the cap, 
if the cap isn't a hex head). I took my grandfather's (1975-1980 vintage) small 
floor jack to a shop about 20 years ago, and they told me it wasn't fixable. I 
never threw it away, intend to tear it apart some day but never have.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Dieselhead]

I don't remember what theTD struts looked like.  I  threw them out 
years ago.  I read that article when you posted it the first time. 
With that info, it might be possible to do a Catheyesque repair on 
them.



The 87 TD struts are different and I have been told by several 
different authoritative sources that they are not rebuildable.


Did you see:

http://bmwe32.masscom.net/gavin/LAD_strut_rebuild.htm

Does that crimped-on cap look anything like your strut?
Mine doesn't have that.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL again

[Jim Cathey]

Anybody else find this as intriguing as I do?

http://bmwe32.masscom.net/gavin/LAD_strut_rebuild.htm

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL again

[Dieselhead]

Interesting.  Let us know how yours turn out, and where you get the 
parts from.  I can see you are off on a mission!




Anybody else find this as intriguing as I do?

http://bmwe32.masscom.net/gavin/LAD_strut_rebuild.htm

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[E M]

Hi Rich, and thanks for the offer, but there are several of them around here
close to home if I decide to take the plunge. ;-)

Thanks again,

Ed
300E

2009/10/14 Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net

 If you are seriously interested I could go take a look at that car.  It has
 been listed long enough they might be willing to entertain offers.

 --R

 E M wrote:

 Exterior looks nice.  If they are in good running order and clean, it's a
 lot of car for $5000.

 I know I have an old brochure kicking around somewhere, that listed all
 the
 options.  One of them, and an expensive one, was where the bench rear seat
 was replaced with two seats, and a center wood console divider.  I've yet
 to
 see a car with that option.  I seem to remember it was something close to
 $10,000 in late 80s dollars.

 Does anyone know if they used the seat pattern as used on Euro cars with
 cloth, on the leather seats too ?  Not sure how to describe it, but it
 wasn't folded and pleated as on W126s that came to North America.

 Ed
 300

 2009/10/14 Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net



 There's a black one that has been sitting on a used car dealer lot for
 months, and posted on CL every few days, $5450
 http://charleston.craigslist.org/ctd/1419164721.html

 I have seen it driving by, looks nice exterior but I have not stopped to
 look at it.  I think this is the one where you could get hudge savings
 and
 all your friends will be your envy or all your base are belong to us
 or
 something like that.

 --R

 E M wrote:



 saw a great 560 the other day, no rust at all, interior perfect, and
 rear
 window shade.  I'd still love a 560 if I could find a nice clean one.  I
 was
 tempted to leave a note on the car, as I have done in the past with
 other
 cars, but I resisted. :-)

 Ed
 300E
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Rich Thomas]

There's a black one that has been sitting on a used car dealer lot for 
months, and posted on CL every few days, $5450   
http://charleston.craigslist.org/ctd/1419164721.html


I have seen it driving by, looks nice exterior but I have not stopped to 
look at it.  I think this is the one where you could get hudge savings 
and all your friends will be your envy or all your base are belong to 
us or something like that.


--R

E M wrote:

saw a great 560 the other day, no rust at all, interior perfect, and rear
window shade.  I'd still love a 560 if I could find a nice clean one.  I was
tempted to leave a note on the car, as I have done in the past with other
cars, but I resisted. :-)

Ed
300E
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[E M]

Exterior looks nice.  If they are in good running order and clean, it's a
lot of car for $5000.

I know I have an old brochure kicking around somewhere, that listed all the
options.  One of them, and an expensive one, was where the bench rear seat
was replaced with two seats, and a center wood console divider.  I've yet to
see a car with that option.  I seem to remember it was something close to
$10,000 in late 80s dollars.

Does anyone know if they used the seat pattern as used on Euro cars with
cloth, on the leather seats too ?  Not sure how to describe it, but it
wasn't folded and pleated as on W126s that came to North America.

Ed
300

2009/10/14 Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net

 There's a black one that has been sitting on a used car dealer lot for
 months, and posted on CL every few days, $5450
 http://charleston.craigslist.org/ctd/1419164721.html

 I have seen it driving by, looks nice exterior but I have not stopped to
 look at it.  I think this is the one where you could get hudge savings and
 all your friends will be your envy or all your base are belong to us or
 something like that.

 --R

 E M wrote:

 saw a great 560 the other day, no rust at all, interior perfect, and rear
 window shade.  I'd still love a 560 if I could find a nice clean one.  I
 was
 tempted to leave a note on the car, as I have done in the past with other
 cars, but I resisted. :-)

 Ed
 300E
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Rich Thomas]

If you are seriously interested I could go take a look at that car.  It 
has been listed long enough they might be willing to entertain offers.


--R

E M wrote:

Exterior looks nice.  If they are in good running order and clean, it's a
lot of car for $5000.

I know I have an old brochure kicking around somewhere, that listed all the
options.  One of them, and an expensive one, was where the bench rear seat
was replaced with two seats, and a center wood console divider.  I've yet to
see a car with that option.  I seem to remember it was something close to
$10,000 in late 80s dollars.

Does anyone know if they used the seat pattern as used on Euro cars with
cloth, on the leather seats too ?  Not sure how to describe it, but it
wasn't folded and pleated as on W126s that came to North America.

Ed
300

2009/10/14 Rich Thomas richthomas79td...@constructivity.net

  

There's a black one that has been sitting on a used car dealer lot for
months, and posted on CL every few days, $5450
http://charleston.craigslist.org/ctd/1419164721.html

I have seen it driving by, looks nice exterior but I have not stopped to
look at it.  I think this is the one where you could get hudge savings and
all your friends will be your envy or all your base are belong to us or
something like that.

--R

E M wrote:



saw a great 560 the other day, no rust at all, interior perfect, and rear
window shade.  I'd still love a 560 if I could find a nice clean one.  I
was
tempted to leave a note on the car, as I have done in the past with other
cars, but I resisted. :-)

Ed
300E
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL HVAC

[Jim Cathey]

I got it working again, four (!) of the valves in the valve
block were bad.  Unfortunately two of the ones in the one
I got at the U-Pull were also bad.  ($3 for the part.)
Fortunately there is room for _two_ valve blocks in there,
so I just put them both in and mix-and-matched to get seven
working valves.  That made everything but the center vent
work (actually the Diverter's fault), but I resoldered part
of the PB unit and then that worked too.  We'll see how it
holds up, but I'm confident.

The 126 HVAC is a marvel when it's working right, but this
wasn't.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL HVAC

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

now tell us again how you tested the valves

Jim Cathey wrote:

I got it working again, four (!) of the valves in the valve
block were bad.  Unfortunately two of the ones in the one
I got at the U-Pull were also bad.  ($3 for the part.)
Fortunately there is room for _two_ valve blocks in there,
so I just put them both in and mix-and-matched to get seven
working valves.  That made everything but the center vent
work (actually the Diverter's fault), but I resoldered part
of the PB unit and then that worked too.  We'll see how it
holds up, but I'm confident.

The 126 HVAC is a marvel when it's working right, but this
wasn't.

-- Jim



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--
Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK
95 E300, 92 500SEL, 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 91 300E, 
89 560SEL, 87 300SDL x2, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 85 190D, 84 190D, 
84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 
http://www.okiebenz.com


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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL HVAC

[Jim Cathey]

now tell us again how you tested the valves


Ohmmeter.  See:

http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/mamerepairs.html#acctest

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL HVAC

[Jim Cathey]

Oh, and the details (along with connection chart) of the
valve body repair are at:

http://userweb.windwireless.net/~jimc/SELlog.html#19Jul2009

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL HVAC

[LWB250]

Jim,

Did you reflow the solder joints between the bottom board and the side boards?  
That's the most common area for failures when it comes to solder joints in the 
PB units.

Dan

--- On Sun, 7/19/09, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote:

 From: Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net
 Subject: [MBZ] 560 SEL HVAC
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Date: Sunday, July 19, 2009, 8:54 AM
 My wife's been complaining of wacky
 AC vent behavior,
 often going to defrost, and/or losing center vent
 output.  Since I was fooling with the radio I pulled
 the PB array and had a look at its solder joints.
 I touched up the switches themselves but didn't see
 anything there.  (I didn't really expect to, but I
 was in the area.)  I then ran my checklist and found
 that three of the seven switchover valves had high
 impedance.  I poked around at its body, and found
 that one of them 'came back', and then went away
 again.  Huh.  The U-Pull had a 300 SEL listed so
 I
 went there and found it nicely exposed already, so
 it was easy to pull out.  I'd brought my meter and
 found that it also had several open valve coils,
 largely the same ones IIRC.  I bought it anyway, it
 was cheap enough.  (I got its cable plug too.)
 
 Now, a new one is fairly expensive so since there is
 some room in there I figured I could just use both of
 them together to get seven good valves.  (We'll see
 how that works out today.  Takes a Y connector for
 the vacuum source and some splicing into the cable.)
 
 The question:  Is this a common failure?  I've
 not
 noticed that individual valves in the older cars have
 had much of a problem, but this integrated valve block
 perhaps is not so reliable?  (Made by Eaton.) 
 These
 two cars were both 1990's, for what it's worth.
 
 -- Jim
 
 
 
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL HVAC

[Jim Cathey]

Did you reflow the solder joints between the bottom board and the side 
boards?  That's the most common area for failures when it comes to 
solder joints in the PB units.


No side boards in the later 126 units.  (The side board problem
is a biggie for the ones with the little translucent AUTO switch.)
They use a ribbon cable instead.  Vastly more reliable due to the
vibration isolation.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Jim Cathey]

I was putting the car back together today after repairing
the cruise control and lubricating the HVAC motors.  While
looking in the trunk for the screws I found _two_ radio
code cards peeking out of a corner.  They're even the
right code.

Well, _that_ would have been better to find much earlier!

For what it's worth, the 1990 cruise control box looks a
lot like the earlier one, except that there is a 40-pin
DIP in it.  I don't know if it's an actual processor, or
just an ASIC version of the earlier digital circuitry.
In that time frame it could have gone either way.

Regardless, resoldering (after using paint stripper and
a wire brush) and a couple of new complementary power
transistors and a diode brought it back to life.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[WILTON]

'Nother ATTABOY.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Saturday, June 27, 2009 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL



I was putting the car back together today after repairing
the cruise control and lubricating the HVAC motors.  While
looking in the trunk for the screws I found _two_ radio
code cards peeking out of a corner.  They're even the
right code.

Well, _that_ would have been better to find much earlier!

For what it's worth, the 1990 cruise control box looks a
lot like the earlier one, except that there is a 40-pin
DIP in it.  I don't know if it's an actual processor, or
just an ASIC version of the earlier digital circuitry.
In that time frame it could have gone either way.

Regardless, resoldering (after using paint stripper and
a wire brush) and a couple of new complementary power
transistors and a diode brought it back to life.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Trampas Stern]

Brushes were cheaper than Honda minivan, but Honda minivan was cheaper than
new wife...

Trampas

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 11:21 AM, andrew strasfogel
astrasfo...@gmail.comwrote:

 Take the radio to a dealer and they will give you the code for free.

 On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net
 wrote:

  Got the new window slider in today, always fun to
  use a BFH and an anvil to fix your car.  Got the
  door panel back on, but not the handles and trim.
 
  The Becker is WAIT-ing on my bench now.  We'll see
  tomorrow if it wants a CODE, which I don't have.
 
  The AC is charged, using a test refrigerant.  I again
  had problems getting the gauge set to open the seal
  pin on the low-side fitting.  The barrel was too
  large, it wouldn't go on far enough.
 
  -- Jim
 
 
 
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Jim Cathey]

Brushes were cheaper than Honda minivan, but Honda minivan was cheaper 
than

new wife...


New wives aren't that expensive, it's the disposal fee
on the old one that kills you!  :-)

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[andrew strasfogel]

Take the radio to a dealer and they will give you the code for free.

On Wed, May 27, 2009 at 10:59 AM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote:

 Got the new window slider in today, always fun to
 use a BFH and an anvil to fix your car.  Got the
 door panel back on, but not the handles and trim.

 The Becker is WAIT-ing on my bench now.  We'll see
 tomorrow if it wants a CODE, which I don't have.

 The AC is charged, using a test refrigerant.  I again
 had problems getting the gauge set to open the seal
 pin on the low-side fitting.  The barrel was too
 large, it wouldn't go on far enough.

 -- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Tim C .]

I would have done the same as you, but don't have space to pull it off.

When I drove the gold w123 300D in to work, a few days after parking the dark 
brown w115 240D, a coworker came in and complimented me on what a great paint 
job I'd done.  Guess you have to be a car nerd...

-Tim

-Original Message-
From: Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net
Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 1:50 AM
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

 Does Rusty have the riveted sliders?

Yes he does.  And mine are on the way.  (I ordered a spare.)

 I'll give you $100 for it.

Thanks for the offer, I think I'll pass right now.

 I learned last week you can buy just a slider and peen it on the arm.

BTDT, on the SDL.

 I suspect Jill has a natural bias against that thing, stemming from 
 the way she learned it was NOT the SDL.

I'm sure too, but how could I _not_ do what I did?  I defy
any one of you to pass up that opportunity.  (I mean, when
she walked right by it and didn't twig... it's not like I
was trying to hide it.)

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Trampas Stern]

I had similar event with Alternator brushes. Now we have a new Honda
minivan.

Trampas

On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 9:44 AM, Tim C. bb...@crone.us wrote:

 I would have done the same as you, but don't have space to pull it off.

 When I drove the gold w123 300D in to work, a few days after parking the
 dark brown w115 240D, a coworker came in and complimented me on what a great
 paint job I'd done.  Guess you have to be a car nerd...

 -Tim

 -Original Message-
 From: Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net
 Sent: Thursday, May 21, 2009 1:50 AM
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

  Does Rusty have the riveted sliders?

 Yes he does.  And mine are on the way.  (I ordered a spare.)

  I'll give you $100 for it.

 Thanks for the offer, I think I'll pass right now.

  I learned last week you can buy just a slider and peen it on the arm.

 BTDT, on the SDL.

  I suspect Jill has a natural bias against that thing, stemming from
  the way she learned it was NOT the SDL.

 I'm sure too, but how could I _not_ do what I did?  I defy
 any one of you to pass up that opportunity.  (I mean, when
 she walked right by it and didn't twig... it's not like I
 was trying to hide it.)

 -- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[kevin kraly]

I would think that replacing alternator brushes would cost A LOT LESS MONEY 
than a new Honda Minivan.   Even if you factor in all of the other nickel 
and dime issues that would come up with the old Mercedes over the term of 
the Honda Minivan payment plan, you're coming out way ahead.  Of course, 
when it's what SHE wants...


Kevin in Hillsboro, OR
1983 300SD 267Kmi, Ursula 



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Rich Thomas]

I'll give you $100 for it.

I learned last week you can buy just a slider and peen it on the arm.

--R

Jim Cathey wrote:

More fun, the nylon slider broke in one of the rear windows.
My wife has summarily decided that the car's a POS, and
doesn't want to drive it anymore.  (Watch out, the ashtrays
might be dirty too.)

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[WILTON]

Does Rusty have the riveted sliders?

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Sent: Wednesday, May 20, 2009 10:45 AM
Subject: [MBZ] 560 SEL



More fun, the nylon slider broke in one of the rear windows.
My wife has summarily decided that the car's a POS, and
doesn't want to drive it anymore.  (Watch out, the ashtrays
might be dirty too.)

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Mitch Haley]

Jim Cathey wrote:

More fun, the nylon slider broke in one of the rear windows.
My wife has summarily decided that the car's a POS, and
doesn't want to drive it anymore.  (Watch out, the ashtrays
might be dirty too.)


I suspect Jill has a natural bias against that thing, stemming from the way she 
learned it was NOT the SDL.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

yep, once the women folk decide that, its downhill from there.

Jim Cathey wrote:

More fun, the nylon slider broke in one of the rear windows.
My wife has summarily decided that the car's a POS, and
doesn't want to drive it anymore.  (Watch out, the ashtrays
might be dirty too.)

-- Jim



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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com 
Version: 8.0.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.35/2124 - Release Date: 05/20/09 06:22:00


  


--
Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK
95 E300, 92 500SEL, 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 91 300E, 
89 560SEL, 87 300SDL x2, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 85 190D, 84 190D, 
84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 
http://www.okiebenz.com


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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[E M]

well I blew a coolant hose today while sitting at a coffee shop.  Came out,
coolant EVEYRWHERE!  Hmmm, ok, walk a few kms to the nearest shopping mall,
buy two 10 liter jugs of water, walk back.  Dig the magic roll of plumbers
take out of the toolbox, (which holds to about 100 psi), order another
coffee, and limp it home, never allowing it to go over 90 degrees.

I've had much worse days! ;-)  lol

Ed
300E, with a new appreciation for my old oil cooled 911. lol

2009/5/20 Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net

 More fun, the nylon slider broke in one of the rear windows.
 My wife has summarily decided that the car's a POS, and
 doesn't want to drive it anymore.  (Watch out, the ashtrays
 might be dirty too.)

 -- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL

[Jim Cathey]

Does Rusty have the riveted sliders?


Yes he does.  And mine are on the way.  (I ordered a spare.)


I'll give you $100 for it.


Thanks for the offer, I think I'll pass right now.


I learned last week you can buy just a slider and peen it on the arm.


BTDT, on the SDL.

I suspect Jill has a natural bias against that thing, stemming from 
the way she learned it was NOT the SDL.


I'm sure too, but how could I _not_ do what I did?  I defy
any one of you to pass up that opportunity.  (I mean, when
she walked right by it and didn't twig... it's not like I
was trying to hide it.)

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL shifting

[Jim Cathey]

Also as I recall their is a one valve assembly which has different 
springs
for first gear start. thus if the seals on this value is bad or 
sticking it

can cause problems.


I can say that I'm pretty sure I feel it drop into 1st from 2nd
when leaving a stop, and that with the cable loosened it definitely
wants to jump through the higher gears faster than optimal, though
you don't have to release the pedal as much (or at all, at lighter
takeoffs) to get it to shift out of first.  Forward engagement time
is a second or less, reverse somewhat longer.  Any kind of exuberant
takeoff results in bouncing off of redline, until you release the
throttle to get it into higher gears, then you can mash it again.
Usable, but irritating, and not something I really want to hand
off to my wife to drive, which was the original point.

No suggestions?  Don't really want to double the price of the
car with a replacement tranny, and besides it seems to shift well
except for its 'separation anxiety'.  Not afraid to dive into
things, if I know what to expect and have some idea of what I'm
doing.  Valve body RR?  Easy.  Valve body surgery?  Would be
my first time!  Can't be any worse than taking apart (and
reassembling into working condition) the dial bar of an old
Friden rotary calculator, which I did as a youth.

But _what_ to be doing, that is what I lack.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL shifting

[Mathieu J . Cama]

Kickdown switch stuck closed or kickdown solenoid is stuck in activated 
position. Both of those match your symptoms 100% and other defects 
would have other symptoms. What gives it away is the car dropping into 
first when leaving a stop. That is activated by the kickdown mechanism 
or by manually downshifting the shift selector. Bowden cable should not 
activate 1st on the 722.3xx.


Quick test: remove the electrical connector at the kickdown solenoid. 
Passenger side, tail of the trans., single round connector in black 
plastic. If the problem stops, look to the switch, if not look to the 
solenoid.


Regards,

Mathieu Cama

Old World Automotive
Lawrenceville, GA
www.oldworldauto.com
404-550-8000
9:30 AM - 5:30 PM Mon-Fri


On May 15, 2009, at 9:34 AM, Jim Cathey wrote:

Also as I recall their is a one valve assembly which has different 
springs
for first gear start. thus if the seals on this value is bad or 
sticking it

can cause problems.


I can say that I'm pretty sure I feel it drop into 1st from 2nd
when leaving a stop, and that with the cable loosened it definitely
wants to jump through the higher gears faster than optimal, though
you don't have to release the pedal as much (or at all, at lighter
takeoffs) to get it to shift out of first.  Forward engagement time
is a second or less, reverse somewhat longer.  Any kind of exuberant
takeoff results in bouncing off of redline, until you release the
throttle to get it into higher gears, then you can mash it again.
Usable, but irritating, and not something I really want to hand
off to my wife to drive, which was the original point.

No suggestions?  Don't really want to double the price of the
car with a replacement tranny, and besides it seems to shift well
except for its 'separation anxiety'.  Not afraid to dive into
things, if I know what to expect and have some idea of what I'm
doing.  Valve body RR?  Easy.  Valve body surgery?  Would be
my first time!  Can't be any worse than taking apart (and
reassembling into working condition) the dial bar of an old
Friden rotary calculator, which I did as a youth.

But _what_ to be doing, that is what I lack.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL shifting

[Jim Cathey]

Kickdown switch stuck closed or kickdown solenoid is stuck in 
activated position. Both of those match your symptoms 100% and other 
defects would have other symptoms. What gives it away is the car 
dropping into first when leaving a stop. That is activated by the 
kickdown mechanism or by manually downshifting the shift selector. 
Bowden cable should not activate 1st on the 722.3xx.


I will test this, but I recall from my 560 SL that it normally
rests in second, and normally shifts to first on takeoff.  Also,
the car reacts to the kickdown switch, as it does to the shifter's
side-switch.  I don't see how it could react this way and still
be stuck, either electrically or mechanically.  Also, behavior
in higher gears seems normal, which I wouldn't expect if the
kickdown function was stuck.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL shifting

[Mitch Haley]

Jim Cathey wrote:


I will test this, but I recall from my 560 SL that it normally
rests in second, and normally shifts to first on takeoff.


My '79 300SD accomplishes that via the kickdown solenoid. There's an underhood 
relay that controls exactly when the kickdown is activated, but I can't recall 
what it senses to know when to release the kickdown after you get rolling.


Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL shifting

[Curt Raymond]

Didja do the filter yet?

Seems like many AT problems are cured with new fluid and filter. Maybe give it 
a couple days or a week of driving for the new fluid to pick up some sludge, 
then change both. Who knows what the old fluid was, it sounds like this car was 
on a major deferred maintenance plan...

-Curt

Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 06:34:30 -0700
From: Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net
Subject: Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL shifting
To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Message-ID: 1e2c57a4-4155-11de-adec-000502d9a...@windwireless.net
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

 Also as I recall their is a one valve assembly which has different 
 springs
 for first gear start. thus if the seals on this value is bad or 
 sticking it
 can cause problems.

I can say that I'm pretty sure I feel it drop into 1st from 2nd
when leaving a stop, and that with the cable loosened it definitely
wants to jump through the higher gears faster than optimal, though
you don't have to release the pedal as much (or at all, at lighter
takeoffs) to get it to shift out of first.  Forward engagement time
is a second or less, reverse somewhat longer.  Any kind of exuberant
takeoff results in bouncing off of redline, until you release the
throttle to get it into higher gears, then you can mash it again.
Usable, but irritating, and not something I really want to hand
off to my wife to drive, which was the original point.

No suggestions?  Don't really want to double the price of the
car with a replacement tranny, and besides it seems to shift well
except for its 'separation anxiety'.  Not afraid to dive into
things, if I know what to expect and have some idea of what I'm
doing.  Valve body RR?  Easy.  Valve body surgery?  Would be
my first time!  Can't be any worse than taking apart (and
reassembling into working condition) the dial bar of an old
Friden rotary calculator, which I did as a youth.

But _what_ to be doing, that is what I lack.

-- Jim


  
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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL shifting

[Jim Cathey]

Didja do the filter yet?


No, not yet.  This car was starting on its downhill
slide, I'm hoping I arrested it.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL shifting

[Jim Cathey]

the control cable is out of adjustment.


But all the other shifts seem fine.  I thought a badly
whacked cable resulted in across-the-board bad shifting?
I didn't notice anything particularly strange about the
cable, I know that it _is_ hooked up for example.

The cable was slightly wrong on the SL, it would stay
in gears 'too long'.  I shifted it about 2.7mm and now
it's a lot closer to right.  I may have gone too far,
I'm still deciding.

I can try dinking with it, I guess.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL shifting

[Trampas Stern]

I should have been clearer. If the kick down switch works it most likely is
not stuck. If it does not kick down then it could be stuck.

Also as I recall their is a one valve assembly which has different springs
for first gear start. thus if the seals on this value is bad or sticking it
can cause problems.

I had my 420SEL get where it would go in reverse but not forward. Problem
ended up being trash in the valve body...

Trampas

On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 1:47 PM, Trampas Stern tst...@nc.rr.com wrote:

 Does the kick down switch work? Sometimes the solenoid can stick.

 Trampas


 On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote:

 the control cable is out of adjustment.


 But all the other shifts seem fine.  I thought a badly
 whacked cable resulted in across-the-board bad shifting?
 I didn't notice anything particularly strange about the
 cable, I know that it _is_ hooked up for example.

 The cable was slightly wrong on the SL, it would stay
 in gears 'too long'.  I shifted it about 2.7mm and now
 it's a lot closer to right.  I may have gone too far,
 I'm still deciding.

 I can try dinking with it, I guess.


 -- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL shifting

[Trampas Stern]

Does the kick down switch work? Sometimes the solenoid can stick.

Trampas

On Thu, May 14, 2009 at 8:01 AM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote:

 the control cable is out of adjustment.


 But all the other shifts seem fine.  I thought a badly
 whacked cable resulted in across-the-board bad shifting?
 I didn't notice anything particularly strange about the
 cable, I know that it _is_ hooked up for example.

 The cable was slightly wrong on the SL, it would stay
 in gears 'too long'.  I shifted it about 2.7mm and now
 it's a lot closer to right.  I may have gone too far,
 I'm still deciding.

 I can try dinking with it, I guess.


 -- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL shifting

[Jim Cathey]

Does the kick down switch work? Sometimes the solenoid can stick.


Yes, works fine.


the control cable is out of adjustment.


The tranny cable adjustment has made it a little more palatable for
regular driving, but if you romp on it at all it'll still go up and
bounce off the rev limiter unless you back off the throttle to let it
shift.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL shifting

[OK Don]

Sounds like Kaleb has been near it 

On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 8:58 PM, Jim Cathey j...@windwireless.net wrote:

 So, anybody have any ideas about why the SEL will not shift
 out of first gear unless you lift off the throttle?  (Only
 above about 25 MPH.)  It's not the kickdown switch, as it
 operates if you toe it, as does the side-gate switch in the
 shifter.  I changed the ATF this morning, pan and torque
 converter, with no difference.  (Didn't drop pan, didn't
 change filter.)  Old oil wasn't too bad looking, slight
 cloudiness, no rank odor.

 Gunk in valve body?  Broken secondary pump drive?
 Any suggestions?  It's still quite drivable, but
 very annoying.

 -- Jim



 --
 OK Don
 Pair of W124 300D 2.5 Turbos
 KD5NRO
 The important thing in aeroplanes is that they shall be speedy Baron
 Manfred von Richthofen

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Re: [MBZ] 560 SEL shifting

[Kaleb C. Striplin]

the control cable is out of adjustment.

Jim Cathey wrote:

So, anybody have any ideas about why the SEL will not shift
out of first gear unless you lift off the throttle?  (Only
above about 25 MPH.)  It's not the kickdown switch, as it
operates if you toe it, as does the side-gate switch in the
shifter.  I changed the ATF this morning, pan and torque
converter, with no difference.  (Didn't drop pan, didn't
change filter.)  Old oil wasn't too bad looking, slight
cloudiness, no rank odor.

Gunk in valve body?  Broken secondary pump drive?
Any suggestions?  It's still quite drivable, but
very annoying.

-- Jim



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--
Kaleb C. Striplin/Claremore, OK
95 E300, 92 500SEL, 92 300SD, 92 300E 4Matic, 91 300D, 91 300E, 
89 560SEL, 87 300SDL x2, 85 380SE 5.0 Euro, 85 190D, 84 190D, 
84 300D euro manny, 81 240D, 80 240D, 76 240D, 76 300D, 
http://www.okiebenz.com



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Re: [MBZ] @#$% 560 SEL water pump

[Jim Cathey]

Progress!  I took a look at the nearly-frozen AC idler bearing, and
removed it from the dogleg.  I then cleaned it and carefully pried out
the (hardened) rubber seal, exposing the dry bearing.  A shot of brake
cleaner loosened everything up, then I cleaned out the bearing and
blew it dry with compressed air.  I smeared in bearing grease, packing
it down in, then I pushed the seal back into place.  It won't seal too
well anymore, but it'll extend the life of this considerably.  (And I
don't need to order anything or wait for it to get here.)  It works
pretty smoothly now.

I then removed the suspension pump from the engine.  That takes a 17mm
flare wrench to remove the high-pressure line, and a 17mm socket to
remove the banjo bolt on the low.  An Allen wrench removes the four
long bolts from the face of the pump, liberating it.  You need a 13mm
socket to loosen the clamp on the high-pressure line, else you don't
have enough slack to remove the pump.  With the pump out you need to
cork the high-pressure line else the suspension oil reservoir will
empty onto the ground.  I lost quite a bit of oil before I got this
done.

With the pump out you can remove the remaining two Allen bolts (the
short ones) and pry the lid off the pump.  The shaft and cam can then
be pushed out from behind with your thumb.  I cleaned everything with
brake cleaner, it was very grimy.  I took pains to keep the four
pistons from getting dirty during this.  The three old seals (of
diverse sorts) can now be removed: scrape off the paper body seal (114
236 00 X0), chisel out the big O-ring body seal (010 997 43 45) being
careful not to damage the channel or the face, and pry out the shaft
seal (004 997 01 47).  The big O-ring was very hard, I couldn't even
tell that it had been an O-ring in the beginning, and was most likely
the source of the leak.

I then cleaned everything again and tapped the new shaft seal in
gently with a hammer.  The shaft may then be lubed and twisted back
into place.  (You need to gently pry the piston drive ring into place
to let the cam go into it while you do this.  With the shaft in place
you can then pry again to slip the brass bushing between the drive
collar and the cam, it doesn't really work to try to install it all in
one shot.)  Then I put the O-ring in the channel and bolted the cover
back on with the two bolts.  The trickiest part is getting the body of
the pump installed back on the engine with the drive ears mating with
the distributor drive while keeping the new paper seal in place.  (You
need to put the high-pressure line back on the pump first, though not
tightened down yet.)  That's not too difficult, though.  I then bolted
everything back down and reinstalled and tightened the hoses and their
braces, then sprayed everything off again with cleaner.  Done.  Today's
session was about 1-1/2 hours.

The big O-ring keeps suspension oil from leaking out of the head of
the pump.  The shaft seal keeps it from leaking into the engine
crankcase, and the paper seal keeps the engine oil (and any vagrant
suspension oil) from leaking out behind the body of the pump.

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] @#$% 560 SEL water pump

[Jim Cathey]

In another session in the evening I scraped off the gasket surfaces
and installed the water pump.  That took a long time, due to the
tenacity of the old gasket.  I tried to be careful with the razor
blade not to damage the metal surfaces.  Once done I transferred the
thermostat to the new pump, but used the new O-ring seal that came
with the pump.  (I made sure to install the jiggle valve up.)  The two
slightly-longer pump mounting bolts must go in where they came out, at
the bottom and bottom-right of the water pump where the thicker bosses
on the pump are else they'll bottom out in the holes and not clamp.  I
wire-brushed the rust off of the one very long bolt that goes through
the body before reinstalling it.  The new gasket had a small tear most
of the way through at one point, that was very distressing to find.
At least it was at the top and not the bottom, so any leak will be
very visible.  I used Permatex anaerobic sealer to goop the torn area
before reassembly, it should be fine.  I got the pump and thermostat
housings assembled, and the radiator feed fitting partially installed
before I had to quit again.

This job is turning out to be very slow!

-- Jim



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Re: [MBZ] @#$% 560 SEL water pump

[Jim Cathey]

I don't remember if I reported this or not, but once it was
all apart I was able to check to see if an Allen bolt would
be removable 'easily'.  Verdict: I don't think so.

I pressure-washed the area, that's as far as I've gotten
so far.  I still need to remove the suspension pump for
re-sealing.

-- Jim



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