Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

My question was tongue in cheek, but I'm glad you answered it anyway.
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan--- via Mercedes]

Larry,

You need to check the dates on these messages...this one was from nearly a year 
ago!

In Florida private sales are not regulated, other than you can’t sell to anyone 
who would check the wrong boxes on a NICS application.  Otherwise, it’s a 
simple arms length sale. I’ve bought and sold a number of times through the 
Florida Gun Trader, a web site that provides a place for residents of the state 
to buy and sell firearms. Always met nice, law abiding folks with common 
interests and often great knowledge of the firearm being bought or sold.

-D “Anything less than 1,000 rounds isn’t enough.”

> On Sep 27, 2018, at 10:35 AM, Larry Turner via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> My apologies, I seem to have failed to reply to your question. Don't know if 
> you were asking 'tongue in cheek' or serious, but there is no gun show loop 
> hole.  The only thing I think they're talking about it when people run into 
> each other in the parking lot and one has a gun they're willing to sell.  
> Same could be said for the "Walmart Loop Hole".  I don't think any dealers 
> with tables in aa gun show will sell without a background check.  We always 
> have several State Police both uniformed and undercover watching the sales 
> inside the shows and I'd bet they would only sell one without a NICS check - 
> and that would probably be to a officer in disguise!  I can only speak of the 
> Va shows of course.
> 
> The problem with legislating against parking lot sales is where do you draw 
> the line?  I'm sure the anti-gun people would write the laws so I couldn't 
> give my son one of my guns or even loan a friend a gun to try at the range as 
> that could technically be called a "transfer".  I would think if they made it 
> illegal to sell guns in the parking lot of a gun show they would stop the few 
> transactions that take place there, but IMO will always be ways for someone 
> with a gun and a desire for money to find a person with cash and a shady 
> background to get together.  But I don't think parking lot sales are a big 
> source of guns used in crime or terrorism.  The case could be made the gov't 
> made more guns available to criminals than the occasional illegal gun show 
> park. lot sale.  Of course it doesn't take a large % of crimes involving a 
> particular type of gun to create a huge media circus.  Semi-auto rifles are 
> used in less than 1% of crimes cut you'd never know it from the way Assault 
> Rifle Madness takes over ever so often... (The % is actually approx .02% IIRC)
> 
> LarryT
> 
> 
>> On 11/09/2017 9:02 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote:
>> Larry did you purchase that via the "gun show loop hole"?  Glad to hear you
>> like it, I'm not a fan.
>> 
>> I watched NPR a couple nights ago, some D senator on the most recent mass
>> shooting in TX kept hammering on about the gun show loop hole, he must have
>> mentioned it about 20 times.  Completely ignored the fact that the TX
>> church shooter purchased his guns illegally, no additional laws would have


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Larry Turner via Mercedes]

My apologies, I seem to have failed to reply to your question. Don't 
know if you were asking 'tongue in cheek' or serious, but there is no 
gun show loop hole.  The only thing I think they're talking about it 
when people run into each other in the parking lot and one has a gun 
they're willing to sell.  Same could be said for the "Walmart Loop 
Hole".  I don't think any dealers with tables in aa gun show will sell 
without a background check.  We always have several State Police both 
uniformed and undercover watching the sales inside the shows and I'd bet 
they would only sell one without a NICS check - and that would probably 
be to a officer in disguise!  I can only speak of the Va shows of course.


The problem with legislating against parking lot sales is where do you 
draw the line?  I'm sure the anti-gun people would write the laws so I 
couldn't give my son one of my guns or even loan a friend a gun to try 
at the range as that could technically be called a "transfer".  I would 
think if they made it illegal to sell guns in the parking lot of a gun 
show they would stop the few transactions that take place there, but IMO 
will always be ways for someone with a gun and a desire for money to 
find a person with cash and a shady background to get together.  But I 
don't think parking lot sales are a big source of guns used in crime or 
terrorism.  The case could be made the gov't made more guns available to 
criminals than the occasional illegal gun show park. lot sale.  Of 
course it doesn't take a large % of crimes involving a particular type 
of gun to create a huge media circus.  Semi-auto rifles are used in less 
than 1% of crimes cut you'd never know it from the way Assault Rifle 
Madness takes over ever so often... (The % is actually approx .02% IIRC)


LarryT


On 11/09/2017 9:02 AM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote:

Larry did you purchase that via the "gun show loop hole"?  Glad to hear you
like it, I'm not a fan.

I watched NPR a couple nights ago, some D senator on the most recent mass
shooting in TX kept hammering on about the gun show loop hole, he must have
mentioned it about 20 times.  Completely ignored the fact that the TX
church shooter purchased his guns illegally, no additional laws would have
stopped him.  Sadly in this particular case the AF dropped the ball and did
not enter his felony conviction for domestic violence into the NCIC
database (actually Naval Consolidated Brig in Miramar may be taking the
heat, as that is where he was imprisoned, but I'm not sure if the staff
there was supposed to do that or the AF bubbas at the court martial that
convicted and sentenced him).

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Larry Turner via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


I bought a new FS92 at a gun show and it's a great gun.  It runs thru 9mm
ammo of any kind whether sore bought on home reloaded.  I even started
using cast bullets without issues.

If you find the 92 you want I don't think you'll be disappointed.

LarryT

91 300D



On 11/07/2017 3:11 PM, Dan--- via Mercedes wrote:


I was giving some thought to buying a Beretta 92 FS.

Any fellow listers familiar with this pistol, or have some direct
experience they might want to share?

Thanks,

Dan

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Craig via Mercedes]

On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 15:33:11 -0500 Dan--- via Mercedes
 wrote:

> Thanks, Greg.
> 
> As a matter of fact, I have done these drills with other pistols, my
> Walther PPQ and others.  Rack, smack and aim/fire.  I don’t have any
> snap caps for the .22, since I’m not going to be using this pistol
> much. I just want to be sure it’s sorted 100% before I hand it off to
> the wife.
> 
> Everyone has offered some great things as far as technique. I’m going
> to start drilling on this stuff in the next day or two.

http://www.dryfiretrainingcards.com/

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

I recently got a 1/2" thick steel target, haven't had a chance to shoot it yet.
I went to the range with my in-line muzzleloader last week. It hadn't been 
shooting well and I scored a box of "cheap bullets" which are about $0.30 each 
as opposed to the $1 each sabot bullets I usually use. I fired about 5 times 
hitting 6 FEET high before I realized the rear scope mount wasn't on the rail 
all the way. I got that worked out and commenced to aligning but since I had 
cranked the scope down it took awhile. I fired about 25 shots total before I 
ran out of primers. I scored another box of cheap bullets, I'll finish sighting 
in on black Friday the day dad and traditionally spend at the range. Deer 
season in MA starts that following Monday which I have off of work.If the 
weather is nice I'll take the flintlock,if it's gross I'll use the inline...
Curt
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Thu, Nov 16, 2017 at 11:44 AM, Dan Penoff via 
Mercedes wrote:   Never seen a black powder shooter at 
my range, mostly pistols although they will allow up to .308.

There is also a place to shoot steels as well, but that’s only for pistols.

-D

>   
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Never seen a black powder shooter at my range, mostly pistols although they 
will allow up to .308.

There is also a place to shoot steels as well, but that’s only for pistols.

-D

> On Nov 16, 2017, at 11:30 AM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> The range my dad shoots at has been infected with the "tacti-cool" guys with 
> their black plastic guns. They don't even put up a target gut blam away into 
> the berm. I don't know of any regular range that allows full Auto firing and 
> dad's has banned a couple guys who couldn't understand that bump stocks are 
> dangerous and no allowed.
> The guys at my range are always interested in my Blackpowder, one guy had to 
> come over and tell Angie and I how dangerous it was and how we were going to 
> get "blowed up". I just had to buy my second bag of 100 .437 cal balls. It 
> takes some effort to shoot that many...
> 
> Curt
> 
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
> 
>  On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 6:28 PM, OK Don via Mercedes 
> wrote:   That's because you do your shooting at a "range". Bubba shoots in 
> his (or
> someone else's) backyard. He doesn't pay to go somewhere to shoot, just
> steps out the back door. I don't consider myself "Bubba", but that's how I
> shoot - step out the back door and shoot at the pile of 12" and larger logs
> stacked three deep, with no one living on the other side.
> I hear gunfire almost every day around here, once recently was most likely
> a bump-stock. I haven't heard it this week, probably because he is saving
> up for another case of ammo . . .
> 
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 2:01 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
>> While I firmly believe it’s up to every individual’s choice as to whether
>> they want to have guns or not, I will say…
>> 
>> I have really been impressed with the camaraderie and willingness to offer
>> assistance and guidance by everyone I’ve shot with or around.  The outdoor
>> range I shoot at weekly has four RSOs (Range Security Officers), all of
>> whom know my name, know what I shoot, and either stand in back out of the
>> way or gladly step up if I have questions about what I’m doing.  All are
>> highly trained instructors and several are former military.  They’re all
>> very gracious, have never been critical (except for constructive purposes)
>> and seem just as happy to stay in the wings or step up and offer assistance
>> when requested.
>> 
>> Many of the sporting clays folks I’ve shot with or around are much the
>> same way.
>> 
>> I was working on my sight weld by myself on the sporting clays range the
>> other day.  My range has automated controllers that will throw clays for
>> you with a delay so you can shoot alone - you set the delays and just push
>> the button.  On three different occasions I had shooters who were walking
>> by my stand, two of which were leaving for the day, who offered to pull the
>> clays for me if I needed.  I never once asked for assistance or even saw a
>> couple of them as they walked by.
>> 
>> The stereotype of the crazed AK carrying redneck with his Budweiser and
>> trucker’s hat is really a joke.  Of all the shooting folks I’ve been
>> around, I have never encountered any “bubbas”, and the few that might be
>> close to that were just as safety minded and gracious as the others….
>> 
>> -D
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> OK Don
> 
> *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
> our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain
> 
> "There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
> learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
> for themselves."
> 
> WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
> 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

The range my dad shoots at has been infected with the "tacti-cool" guys with 
their black plastic guns. They don't even put up a target gut blam away into 
the berm. I don't know of any regular range that allows full Auto firing and 
dad's has banned a couple guys who couldn't understand that bump stocks are 
dangerous and no allowed.
The guys at my range are always interested in my Blackpowder, one guy had to 
come over and tell Angie and I how dangerous it was and how we were going to 
get "blowed up". I just had to buy my second bag of 100 .437 cal balls. It 
takes some effort to shoot that many...

Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 6:28 PM, OK Don via Mercedes 
wrote:   That's because you do your shooting at a "range". Bubba shoots in his 
(or
someone else's) backyard. He doesn't pay to go somewhere to shoot, just
steps out the back door. I don't consider myself "Bubba", but that's how I
shoot - step out the back door and shoot at the pile of 12" and larger logs
stacked three deep, with no one living on the other side.
I hear gunfire almost every day around here, once recently was most likely
a bump-stock. I haven't heard it this week, probably because he is saving
up for another case of ammo . . .

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 2:01 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> While I firmly believe it’s up to every individual’s choice as to whether
> they want to have guns or not, I will say…
>
> I have really been impressed with the camaraderie and willingness to offer
> assistance and guidance by everyone I’ve shot with or around.  The outdoor
> range I shoot at weekly has four RSOs (Range Security Officers), all of
> whom know my name, know what I shoot, and either stand in back out of the
> way or gladly step up if I have questions about what I’m doing.  All are
> highly trained instructors and several are former military.  They’re all
> very gracious, have never been critical (except for constructive purposes)
> and seem just as happy to stay in the wings or step up and offer assistance
> when requested.
>
> Many of the sporting clays folks I’ve shot with or around are much the
> same way.
>
> I was working on my sight weld by myself on the sporting clays range the
> other day.  My range has automated controllers that will throw clays for
> you with a delay so you can shoot alone - you set the delays and just push
> the button.  On three different occasions I had shooters who were walking
> by my stand, two of which were leaving for the day, who offered to pull the
> clays for me if I needed.  I never once asked for assistance or even saw a
> couple of them as they walked by.
>
> The stereotype of the crazed AK carrying redneck with his Budweiser and
> trucker’s hat is really a joke.  Of all the shooting folks I’ve been
> around, I have never encountered any “bubbas”, and the few that might be
> close to that were just as safety minded and gracious as the others….
>
> -D
>
>
>


-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan--- via Mercedes]

The rabbits are even tougher.

-D

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 8:28 PM, Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> I shot summadem skeets once. Damn things was tough as could be when I tried 
> to cook em up. 
> 
> --R
> Sent from iPhone
> 
>> On Nov 15, 2017, at 8:24 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Yup!   When I was in HS, one of my friends knew a pair of brothers who had a 
>> construction company and had 2 houses with a shared driveway.  Between the 
>> houses was what looked like a 2 car garage, but it was their private trap 
>> club. They let us go there whenever we wanted to shoot trap.  We went so 
>> often that I had to start reloading 12 ga.   It was a blast.
>> 
>> Find a range that will rent the hardware to you.
>> 
>> I started when I was maybe 8 or 10 at the county fair.  They had a sideshow 
>> booth with winchester 98 or 06 pump 22 short only rifles.  I think they used 
>> cb caps.Then came marksmanship merit badge at the Boy Scout camp using 
>> single shot bolt gummit rifles at 11.   The skills learned then still hold.
>> 
>> TRY IT!  You'll LOVE IT!   Shoulder, hand, or trap, skeet, or "sporting 
>> clays"
>> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Buggered Benzmail via Mercedes]

I shot summadem skeets once. Damn things was tough as could be when I tried to 
cook em up. 

--R
Sent from iPhone

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 8:24 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Yup!   When I was in HS, one of my friends knew a pair of brothers who had a 
> construction company and had 2 houses with a shared driveway.  Between the 
> houses was what looked like a 2 car garage, but it was their private trap 
> club. They let us go there whenever we wanted to shoot trap.  We went so 
> often that I had to start reloading 12 ga.   It was a blast.
> 
> Find a range that will rent the hardware to you.
> 
> I started when I was maybe 8 or 10 at the county fair.  They had a sideshow 
> booth with winchester 98 or 06 pump 22 short only rifles.  I think they used 
> cb caps.Then came marksmanship merit badge at the Boy Scout camp using 
> single shot bolt gummit rifles at 11.   The skills learned then still hold.
> 
> TRY IT!  You'll LOVE IT!   Shoulder, hand, or trap, skeet, or "sporting clays"
> 
>> Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
>> November 15, 2017 at 1:51 PM
>> So here is a thought to our anti-gun colleague:
>> 
>> Whether you would want to carry or own or use a gun, going to the range and 
>> shooting can be very relaxing in an interesting way. When you are shooting 
>> you need to clear your head of extraneous thoughts and focus totally on what 
>> you are doing -- loading the weapon, handling the weapon, aiming, holding, 
>> shooting, and adjusting as necessary to hit your target.  It becomes very 
>> "zen"-like as you really do clear out all the nagging thoughts that stay 
>> with you as you go about your business during the day. I find that I leave 
>> the range with this very calm sense of things having focused for an hour or 
>> so on that activity to the exclusion of everything else.  If you go with a 
>> friend you can compare your performance and guns and have some comradery in 
>> that way too.
>> 
>> It is not particularly intimidating, though you might feel "uncomfortable" 
>> around men and women who have some skills around use of guns.  You might 
>> also find out they are nice people and would do anything for you, even if 
>> you wore your H-> or Feel the Bern shirt.
>> 
>> But YMMV though you might want to give it a try sometime, you might be 
>> surprised that you actually have some fun and could (horrors!) enjoy it!
>> 
>> --FT
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Yup!   When I was in HS, one of my friends knew a pair of brothers who 
had a construction company and had 2 houses with a shared driveway.  
Between the houses was what looked like a 2 car garage, but it was their 
private trap club. They let us go there whenever we wanted to shoot 
trap.  We went so often that I had to start reloading 12 ga.   It was a 
blast.


Find a range that will rent the hardware to you.

I started when I was maybe 8 or 10 at the county fair.  They had a 
sideshow booth with winchester 98 or 06 pump 22 short only rifles.  I 
think they used cb caps.Then came marksmanship merit badge at the 
Boy Scout camp using single shot bolt gummit rifles at 11.   The skills 
learned then still hold.


TRY IT!  You'll LOVE IT!   Shoulder, hand, or trap, skeet, or "sporting 
clays"



Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
November 15, 2017 at 1:51 PM
So here is a thought to our anti-gun colleague:

Whether you would want to carry or own or use a gun, going to the 
range and shooting can be very relaxing in an interesting way. When 
you are shooting you need to clear your head of extraneous thoughts 
and focus totally on what you are doing -- loading the weapon, 
handling the weapon, aiming, holding, shooting, and adjusting as 
necessary to hit your target.  It becomes very "zen"-like as you 
really do clear out all the nagging thoughts that stay with you as you 
go about your business during the day. I find that I leave the range 
with this very calm sense of things having focused for an hour or so 
on that activity to the exclusion of everything else.  If you go with 
a friend you can compare your performance and guns and have some 
comradery in that way too.


It is not particularly intimidating, though you might feel 
"uncomfortable" around men and women who have some skills around use 
of guns.  You might also find out they are nice people and would do 
anything for you, even if you wore your H-> or Feel the Bern shirt.


But YMMV though you might want to give it a try sometime, you might be 
surprised that you actually have some fun and could (horrors!) enjoy it!


--FT




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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[OK Don via Mercedes]

That's because you do your shooting at a "range". Bubba shoots in his (or
someone else's) backyard. He doesn't pay to go somewhere to shoot, just
steps out the back door. I don't consider myself "Bubba", but that's how I
shoot - step out the back door and shoot at the pile of 12" and larger logs
stacked three deep, with no one living on the other side.
I hear gunfire almost every day around here, once recently was most likely
a bump-stock. I haven't heard it this week, probably because he is saving
up for another case of ammo . . .

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 2:01 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> While I firmly believe it’s up to every individual’s choice as to whether
> they want to have guns or not, I will say…
>
> I have really been impressed with the camaraderie and willingness to offer
> assistance and guidance by everyone I’ve shot with or around.  The outdoor
> range I shoot at weekly has four RSOs (Range Security Officers), all of
> whom know my name, know what I shoot, and either stand in back out of the
> way or gladly step up if I have questions about what I’m doing.  All are
> highly trained instructors and several are former military.  They’re all
> very gracious, have never been critical (except for constructive purposes)
> and seem just as happy to stay in the wings or step up and offer assistance
> when requested.
>
> Many of the sporting clays folks I’ve shot with or around are much the
> same way.
>
> I was working on my sight weld by myself on the sporting clays range the
> other day.  My range has automated controllers that will throw clays for
> you with a delay so you can shoot alone - you set the delays and just push
> the button.  On three different occasions I had shooters who were walking
> by my stand, two of which were leaving for the day, who offered to pull the
> clays for me if I needed.  I never once asked for assistance or even saw a
> couple of them as they walked by.
>
> The stereotype of the crazed AK carrying redneck with his Budweiser and
> trucker’s hat is really a joke.  Of all the shooting folks I’ve been
> around, I have never encountered any “bubbas”, and the few that might be
> close to that were just as safety minded and gracious as the others….
>
> -D
>
>
>


-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan--- via Mercedes]

Thanks, Greg.

As a matter of fact, I have done these drills with other pistols, my Walther 
PPQ and others.  Rack, smack and aim/fire.  I don’t have any snap caps for the 
.22, since I’m not going to be using this pistol much. I just want to be sure 
it’s sorted 100% before I hand it off to the wife.

Everyone has offered some great things as far as technique. I’m going to start 
drilling on this stuff in the next day or two.

-D

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 2:53 PM, Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes 
> <mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
> Have you done any "ball and dummy" drills? Load a mag with some live rounds 
> and some snap caps. See what happens when the snap cap is in the chamber when 
> you pull the trigger. This reveals a lot of technique errors. 
> 
> Also, not having your wrist joint in a direct line along the axis of the 
> barrel will flip your shots to the side.
> 
> Greg
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff 
> via Mercedes
> Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 8:25 AM
> To: Mercedes List
> Cc: Dan Penoff
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase
> 
> Good point.  I need to do the same with my shotguns, too.
> 
> I’m not aware of the front sight moving when I pull the trigger, but I’m 
> figuring it must as when I shoot from the bench I’m hitting my aiming points. 
>  That’s why I’m thinking it’s a trigger issue.  And BTW, I’ve got a package 
> of the diagnostic targets.  Had them for a while, just didn’t need them 
> (until now.)
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Dan
> 
>> On Nov 15, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
>> <mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On November 15, 2017 at 8:47 AM Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>>> <mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>> Good information I’m looking forward to trying out the next time I go to 
>>> the range.
>> 
>> Why wait for a range trip?
>> Dry fire practice. Maybe even take a video and observe your hand placement 
>> from the sides. Does the front sight move when you pull the trigger?
>> 
>> Mitch.
>> 
>> ___
>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>> 
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>> 
>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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>> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

While I firmly believe it’s up to every individual’s choice as to whether they 
want to have guns or not, I will say…

I have really been impressed with the camaraderie and willingness to offer 
assistance and guidance by everyone I’ve shot with or around.  The outdoor 
range I shoot at weekly has four RSOs (Range Security Officers), all of whom 
know my name, know what I shoot, and either stand in back out of the way or 
gladly step up if I have questions about what I’m doing.  All are highly 
trained instructors and several are former military.  They’re all very 
gracious, have never been critical (except for constructive purposes) and seem 
just as happy to stay in the wings or step up and offer assistance when 
requested.

Many of the sporting clays folks I’ve shot with or around are much the same way.

I was working on my sight weld by myself on the sporting clays range the other 
day.  My range has automated controllers that will throw clays for you with a 
delay so you can shoot alone - you set the delays and just push the button.  On 
three different occasions I had shooters who were walking by my stand, two of 
which were leaving for the day, who offered to pull the clays for me if I 
needed.  I never once asked for assistance or even saw a couple of them as they 
walked by.

The stereotype of the crazed AK carrying redneck with his Budweiser and 
trucker’s hat is really a joke.  Of all the shooting folks I’ve been around, I 
have never encountered any “bubbas”, and the few that might be close to that 
were just as safety minded and gracious as the others….

-D


> On Nov 15, 2017, at 2:51 PM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> So here is a thought to our anti-gun colleague:
> 
> Whether you would want to carry or own or use a gun, going to the range and 
> shooting can be very relaxing in an interesting way. When you are shooting 
> you need to clear your head of extraneous thoughts and focus totally on what 
> you are doing -- loading the weapon, handling the weapon, aiming, holding, 
> shooting, and adjusting as necessary to hit your target.  It becomes very 
> "zen"-like as you really do clear out all the nagging thoughts that stay with 
> you as you go about your business during the day. I find that I leave the 
> range with this very calm sense of things having focused for an hour or so on 
> that activity to the exclusion of everything else.  If you go with a friend 
> you can compare your performance and guns and have some comradery in that way 
> too.
> 
> It is not particularly intimidating, though you might feel "uncomfortable" 
> around men and women who have some skills around use of guns.  You might also 
> find out they are nice people and would do anything for you, even if you wore 
> your H-> or Feel the Bern shirt.
> 
> But YMMV though you might want to give it a try sometime, you might be 
> surprised that you actually have some fun and could (horrors!) enjoy it!
> 
> --FT
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes]

Have you done any "ball and dummy" drills? Load a mag with some live rounds and 
some snap caps. See what happens when the snap cap is in the chamber when you 
pull the trigger. This reveals a lot of technique errors. 

Also, not having your wrist joint in a direct line along the axis of the barrel 
will flip your shots to the side.

Greg

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan Penoff 
via Mercedes
Sent: Wednesday, November 15, 2017 8:25 AM
To: Mercedes List
Cc: Dan Penoff
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

Good point.  I need to do the same with my shotguns, too.

I’m not aware of the front sight moving when I pull the trigger, but I’m 
figuring it must as when I shoot from the bench I’m hitting my aiming points.  
That’s why I’m thinking it’s a trigger issue.  And BTW, I’ve got a package of 
the diagnostic targets.  Had them for a while, just didn’t need them (until 
now.)

Thanks!

Dan

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
> <mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On November 15, 2017 at 8:47 AM Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>> <mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>> Good information I’m looking forward to trying out the next time I go to the 
>> range.
> 
> Why wait for a range trip?
> Dry fire practice. Maybe even take a video and observe your hand placement 
> from the sides. Does the front sight move when you pull the trigger?
> 
> Mitch.
> 
> ___
> http://www.okiebenz.com
> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

So here is a thought to our anti-gun colleague:

Whether you would want to carry or own or use a gun, going to the range 
and shooting can be very relaxing in an interesting way. When you are 
shooting you need to clear your head of extraneous thoughts and focus 
totally on what you are doing -- loading the weapon, handling the 
weapon, aiming, holding, shooting, and adjusting as necessary to hit 
your target.  It becomes very "zen"-like as you really do clear out all 
the nagging thoughts that stay with you as you go about your business 
during the day. I find that I leave the range with this very calm sense 
of things having focused for an hour or so on that activity to the 
exclusion of everything else.  If you go with a friend you can compare 
your performance and guns and have some comradery in that way too.


It is not particularly intimidating, though you might feel 
"uncomfortable" around men and women who have some skills around use of 
guns.  You might also find out they are nice people and would do 
anything for you, even if you wore your H-> or Feel the Bern shirt.


But YMMV though you might want to give it a try sometime, you might be 
surprised that you actually have some fun and could (horrors!) enjoy it!


--FT


On 11/15/17 2:10 PM, Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes wrote:

That's very difficult with a green plastic water pistol thugh with
practice I will get the hang of it..

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 2:07 PM, G Mann via Mercedes 
wrote:


Try this dry fire drill to improve trigger position and target.

1. Clear the weapon, remove ammo from dry fire room. Be safe.

2. Put a sticky note on the wall at sight height, with a small X on it.

3. Stand in firing stance, with your proper grip and finger position on
trigger, muzzle of gun 4 inches from the "X" . acquire proper sight
picture with focus on front sight and X Squeeze trigger to take up
slack to "release point" while holding sight picture... then squeeze past
release point to hammer fall, while staying focused on sight picture.

If you are "pulling the weapon with the trigger" you will observe it right
away using this drill.

Adjust stance, grip, and trigger finger to gain precision and practice
[it's cheap, no ammo used.]
The more you practice up close, the tighter you will hold on the "X" up
close... when you feel good at 4 inches... back up to 12 and start over
repeat often

Enjoy be safe.

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 9:24 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:


Good point.  I need to do the same with my shotguns, too.

I’m not aware of the front sight moving when I pull the trigger, but I’m
figuring it must as when I shoot from the bench I’m hitting my aiming
points.  That’s why I’m thinking it’s a trigger issue.  And BTW, I’ve

got a

package of the diagnostic targets.  Had them for a while, just didn’t

need

them (until now.)

Thanks!

Dan


On Nov 15, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes <

mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:



On November 15, 2017 at 8:47 AM Dan Penoff via Mercedes <

mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

Good information I’m looking forward to trying out the next time I go

to the range.

Why wait for a range trip?
Dry fire practice. Maybe even take a video and observe your hand

placement from the sides. Does the front sight move when you pull the
trigger?

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

That's very difficult with a green plastic water pistol thugh with
practice I will get the hang of it..

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 2:07 PM, G Mann via Mercedes 
wrote:

> Try this dry fire drill to improve trigger position and target.
>
> 1. Clear the weapon, remove ammo from dry fire room. Be safe.
>
> 2. Put a sticky note on the wall at sight height, with a small X on it.
>
> 3. Stand in firing stance, with your proper grip and finger position on
> trigger, muzzle of gun 4 inches from the "X" . acquire proper sight
> picture with focus on front sight and X Squeeze trigger to take up
> slack to "release point" while holding sight picture... then squeeze past
> release point to hammer fall, while staying focused on sight picture.
>
> If you are "pulling the weapon with the trigger" you will observe it right
> away using this drill.
>
> Adjust stance, grip, and trigger finger to gain precision and practice
> [it's cheap, no ammo used.]
> The more you practice up close, the tighter you will hold on the "X" up
> close... when you feel good at 4 inches... back up to 12 and start over
> repeat often
>
> Enjoy be safe.
>
> On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 9:24 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>
> > Good point.  I need to do the same with my shotguns, too.
> >
> > I’m not aware of the front sight moving when I pull the trigger, but I’m
> > figuring it must as when I shoot from the bench I’m hitting my aiming
> > points.  That’s why I’m thinking it’s a trigger issue.  And BTW, I’ve
> got a
> > package of the diagnostic targets.  Had them for a while, just didn’t
> need
> > them (until now.)
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Dan
> >
> > > On Nov 15, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> On November 15, 2017 at 8:47 AM Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
> > mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> > >> Good information I’m looking forward to trying out the next time I go
> > to the range.
> > >
> > > Why wait for a range trip?
> > > Dry fire practice. Maybe even take a video and observe your hand
> > placement from the sides. Does the front sight move when you pull the
> > trigger?
> > >
> > > Mitch.
> > >
> > > ___
> > > http://www.okiebenz.com
> > >
> > > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> > >
> > > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> > >
> >
> >
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> >
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> >
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> >
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Try this dry fire drill to improve trigger position and target.

1. Clear the weapon, remove ammo from dry fire room. Be safe.

2. Put a sticky note on the wall at sight height, with a small X on it.

3. Stand in firing stance, with your proper grip and finger position on
trigger, muzzle of gun 4 inches from the "X" . acquire proper sight
picture with focus on front sight and X Squeeze trigger to take up
slack to "release point" while holding sight picture... then squeeze past
release point to hammer fall, while staying focused on sight picture.

If you are "pulling the weapon with the trigger" you will observe it right
away using this drill.

Adjust stance, grip, and trigger finger to gain precision and practice
[it's cheap, no ammo used.]
The more you practice up close, the tighter you will hold on the "X" up
close... when you feel good at 4 inches... back up to 12 and start over
repeat often

Enjoy be safe.

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 9:24 AM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Good point.  I need to do the same with my shotguns, too.
>
> I’m not aware of the front sight moving when I pull the trigger, but I’m
> figuring it must as when I shoot from the bench I’m hitting my aiming
> points.  That’s why I’m thinking it’s a trigger issue.  And BTW, I’ve got a
> package of the diagnostic targets.  Had them for a while, just didn’t need
> them (until now.)
>
> Thanks!
>
> Dan
>
> > On Nov 15, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> >> On November 15, 2017 at 8:47 AM Dan Penoff via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >> Good information I’m looking forward to trying out the next time I go
> to the range.
> >
> > Why wait for a range trip?
> > Dry fire practice. Maybe even take a video and observe your hand
> placement from the sides. Does the front sight move when you pull the
> trigger?
> >
> > Mitch.
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
> > To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> > http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
> >
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Andrew Strasfogel via Mercedes]

Now this I can relate to.  For our community  Halloween party I was
costumed as an Aussie cattle driver, complete with new jeans,  western
shirt, and sting ray leather boots; and an Aussie leather-brimmed
driver's hat.  I portrayed as an apprentice who was not yet certified to
carry a real pistol or whip.  Instead, I wielded a cat toy on a string
(which I snapped menacingly) and a green empty water pistol (not ready to
pack a loaded pistol).  I won the party prize for "most compelling" .Ka
CHA! [sound of a whip snapping]

On Wed, Nov 15, 2017 at 1:47 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I would always put the trigger in the middle of my trigger finger pad
> (midway between finger tip and first joint).  What I was taught was that a
> group to the left of the bulls-eye probably means you're trigger finger is
> too deep, and the trigger is either at or on the crease at the first
> joint.  However, there could be other variables (hand positions, trigger
> pull smooth vs. jerking, anticipating the recoil and trying to compensate
> with a muscle movement, breathing wrong, etc), and in the end (if the
> sights are adjustable) you could simply adjust the sites to bring the group
> back to the bulls-eye.  It is more important to do exactly the same thing
> every time you shoot, so your groups are as tight as possible, and then you
> adjust the sites so that the group is hitting where you want it to hit.
>
> Stop comparing how the pistol shoots when "benched" because that's not how
> you're going to shoot all the time.  Benching it and shooting has no value
> because that's not how you will shoot the pistol "in real life".  Learn
> proper stance, hand positions, site alignment, trigger pull, and breathing,
> get those all consistent with every shoot, and then adjust the sites and
> you're done.
>
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC
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>
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

I would always put the trigger in the middle of my trigger finger pad
(midway between finger tip and first joint).  What I was taught was that a
group to the left of the bulls-eye probably means you're trigger finger is
too deep, and the trigger is either at or on the crease at the first
joint.  However, there could be other variables (hand positions, trigger
pull smooth vs. jerking, anticipating the recoil and trying to compensate
with a muscle movement, breathing wrong, etc), and in the end (if the
sights are adjustable) you could simply adjust the sites to bring the group
back to the bulls-eye.  It is more important to do exactly the same thing
every time you shoot, so your groups are as tight as possible, and then you
adjust the sites so that the group is hitting where you want it to hit.

Stop comparing how the pistol shoots when "benched" because that's not how
you're going to shoot all the time.  Benching it and shooting has no value
because that's not how you will shoot the pistol "in real life".  Learn
proper stance, hand positions, site alignment, trigger pull, and breathing,
get those all consistent with every shoot, and then adjust the sites and
you're done.

-
Max
Charleston SC
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Good point.  I need to do the same with my shotguns, too.

I’m not aware of the front sight moving when I pull the trigger, but I’m 
figuring it must as when I shoot from the bench I’m hitting my aiming points.  
That’s why I’m thinking it’s a trigger issue.  And BTW, I’ve got a package of 
the diagnostic targets.  Had them for a while, just didn’t need them (until 
now.)

Thanks!

Dan

> On Nov 15, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On November 15, 2017 at 8:47 AM Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> Good information I’m looking forward to trying out the next time I go to the 
>> range.
> 
> Why wait for a range trip?
> Dry fire practice. Maybe even take a video and observe your hand placement 
> from the sides. Does the front sight move when you pull the trigger?
> 
> Mitch.
> 
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> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On November 15, 2017 at 8:47 AM Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> Good information I’m looking forward to trying out the next time I go to the 
> range.

Why wait for a range trip?
Dry fire practice. Maybe even take a video and observe your hand placement from 
the sides. Does the front sight move when you pull the trigger?

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I watched a few of these (and yes, she’s easier to watch than the old guy, but 
not as amazing as he is) and got some good information.  She had some good 
instruction on finger placement on the trigger as well.

I definitely need to review my stance and the way I hold the pistols.

Good information I’m looking forward to trying out the next time I go to the 
range.

Thanks!

Dan
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

Mitch sez:

>‎OK, I'll admit, KJW is more fun to look at >than Miculek.

Ya think?

Rick
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

OK, I'll admit, KJW is more fun to look at than Miculek. 

Mitch. 
> On November 14, 2017 at 9:15 PM Rick Knoble via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> ‎https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIwokYOdpag=em
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dsS7Bs99rc=PLeU2EGl_uWT0gp9jy8Sv4wTbBxbLJUtOo=em
> 
> Rick

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On November 14, 2017 at 8:41 PM Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> As an aside, I shot 100 rounds of CCI - perfect.  80 rounds of Federal - 
> consistent failure to load on 2-3 rounds nearly every magazine.

It almost sounds like the P22 was made by GSG, like the Sig Mosquito. 

But the P22 is made by Walther, or some people claim Umarex.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

‎https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIwokYOdpag=em

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dsS7Bs99rc=PLeU2EGl_uWT0gp9jy8Sv4wTbBxbLJUtOo=em

Rick
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

http://static.squarespace.com/static/50037c45c4aaab8fd03f8ee9/t/5045648ac4aa994481375f2f/1346725004233/right_hand_error_target_jpeg-rv_a.jpg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChSazF41q-s

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Took the P22 back to the range today.

I’m looking for feedback as what I experienced was sort of weird to me - 
understand that I haven’t shot pistols in some years, so my current experience 
is pretty limited to my Walther PPQ and a few miscellaneous pistols I’ve shot 
randomly.

I sat the P22 on the bench and put the butt of the pistol down on the bench to 
anchor it.  I aimed at a target and was able to get a pretty consistent 
grouping in the center.

I loaded another magazine after emptying the first one from the bench and stood 
up in a typical shooting position, arms extended and left hand cupping over the 
right.  Shooting like this I was getting hits to the left of center.

Hmm.

I was able to repeat this behavior pretty consistently - shooting from the 
bench - on target - shooting from a standing position - left of center.

I’m thinking it’s my trigger pull.  I played around with moving my finger on 
the trigger and got some positive results from that.  I had been pulling from a 
place with the trigger close to my first finger joint.  I moved my finger out 
on the trigger so it was closer to the tip of my finger being on the trigger.

Thoughts?  Opinions?

At this point I can’t blame the pistol - it definitely seems to be the shooter.

As an aside, I shot 100 rounds of CCI - perfect.  80 rounds of Federal - 
consistent failure to load on 2-3 rounds nearly every magazine.

-D

 
> On Nov 12, 2017, at 6:57 PM, OK Don via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> I finally got too curious about what you were talking about and looked up
> the Walther P22. Interesting, but I'd take the PPK/22 instead. It would
> match my WWII PPK.
> I also noticed some references to Colt 1911's in some of the literature
> links. Are Walther and Colt now owned by the same holding company or
> something?
> 
> On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
>> Thunderbolt used to be garbage, the cheapest junk available short of the
>> Russian steel case stuff. I quit using it and it'd take something special
>> before I'd use it again.
>> 
>> Curt
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>> 
>>  On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 7:37 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes<
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:   I’ve got a box of Remington Thunderbolt
>> I’m going to run through it.  I’ve heard it’s good, too. I have also heard
>> good things about CCI minimag as well.
>> 
>> I’ve got the day off tomorrow, so I’m planning on a lot of range time in
>> the morning.  Probably do a full course of clays then switch over to the
>> pistol range and try out the P22 and work out the PPQ, all before lunch.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
>> 
>>> On Nov 9, 2017, at 6:43 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
>> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Make sure she learns NOT to hit the (cheap prastic) front sight when
>> clearing a stovepipe.  (So the sight does not gat wiped off into the dirt)
>> There is a long article about how to make a few modifications so it will
>> eat most anything you feed it.  Otherwise, the consensus it to use CCI
>> mini mag.
>>> 
 Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
 November 7, 2017 at 4:48 PM
 The wife is getting a really nice nickel plated Walther P22 for
>> Christmas. Should be here any day. It will make her happy to shoot, as
>> there’s little recoil or lift, and it’s much smaller than anything else we
>> have so it’s easy to handle.
 
 -D
 
>>> 
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>>> 
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>>> 
>> 
>> 
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>> 
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>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> OK Don
> 
> *“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
> our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain
> 
> "There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
> learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
> for themselves."
> 
> WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
> 2013 F150, 18 mpg
> 2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
> 1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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> 

Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Not to my knowledge, but understand that many manufacturers make 1911s, so 
they’re not exclusive to Colt.

I spent almost four hours with my shooting coach today.  The weather was 
crappy, as in 75F, overcast and light drizzle on and off.  He helped fit me to 
my Beretta, which needs a raise in the comb so I can get a good eye weld.  I’m 
going to get a Beartooth comb raising kit for it and we’re going to experiment 
with that.  I shot a British O/U of some sort that he had with him (he travels 
with about 10+ shoguns with him) and it had a really good fit for me.  Problem 
was that I still had the image of the Beretta in my brain and was 
overcompensating for the poor eye weld with it on his gun.  I started out well, 
but it was a really heavy gun (almost 9 pounds) and it started to wear me out.

There was a local gun shop at the range today doing custom ear molds at a 
discount for a promotion, so I got that done.  Looking forward to getting those 
so I can ditch the foam ear plugs with my shotguns (I use Howard Leight 
electronic earmuffs for the pistol range.)

Between running long with my shooting coach and the crappy weather, I didn’t 
make it back to the pistol range to work on the P22.  If the weather is decent 
tomorrow I’ll go after work.

-D

> On Nov 12, 2017, at 6:57 PM, OK Don via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> I finally got too curious about what you were talking about and looked up
> the Walther P22. Interesting, but I'd take the PPK/22 instead. It would
> match my WWII PPK.
> I also noticed some references to Colt 1911's in some of the literature
> links. Are Walther and Colt now owned by the same holding company or
> something?
> 
> On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> 
>> Thunderbolt used to be garbage, the cheapest junk available short of the
>> Russian steel case stuff. I quit using it and it'd take something special
>> before I'd use it again.
>> 
>> Curt


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[OK Don via Mercedes]

I finally got too curious about what you were talking about and looked up
the Walther P22. Interesting, but I'd take the PPK/22 instead. It would
match my WWII PPK.
I also noticed some references to Colt 1911's in some of the literature
links. Are Walther and Colt now owned by the same holding company or
something?

On Sun, Nov 12, 2017 at 5:33 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Thunderbolt used to be garbage, the cheapest junk available short of the
> Russian steel case stuff. I quit using it and it'd take something special
> before I'd use it again.
>
> Curt
>
> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android
>
>   On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 7:37 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes<
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:   I’ve got a box of Remington Thunderbolt
> I’m going to run through it.  I’ve heard it’s good, too. I have also heard
> good things about CCI minimag as well.
>
> I’ve got the day off tomorrow, so I’m planning on a lot of range time in
> the morning.  Probably do a full course of clays then switch over to the
> pistol range and try out the P22 and work out the PPQ, all before lunch.
>
> -D
>
>
> > On Nov 9, 2017, at 6:43 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> > Make sure she learns NOT to hit the (cheap prastic) front sight when
> clearing a stovepipe.  (So the sight does not gat wiped off into the dirt)
> There is a long article about how to make a few modifications so it will
> eat most anything you feed it.  Otherwise, the consensus it to use CCI
> mini mag.
> >
> >> Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
> >> November 7, 2017 at 4:48 PM
> >> The wife is getting a really nice nickel plated Walther P22 for
> Christmas. Should be here any day. It will make her happy to shoot, as
> there’s little recoil or lift, and it’s much smaller than anything else we
> have so it’s easy to handle.
> >>
> >> -D
> >>
> >
> > ___
> > http://www.okiebenz.com
> >
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> >
> > To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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> >
>
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-- 
OK Don

*“Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of
our people need it sorely on these accounts.”* – Mark Twain

"There are three kinds of men: The ones that learns by reading. The few who
learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence
for themselves."

WILL ROGERS, *The Manly Wisdom of Will Rogers*
2013 F150, 18 mpg
2017 Subaru Legacy, 30 mpg
1957 C182A, 12 mpg - but at 150 mph!
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Curt Raymond via Mercedes]

Thunderbolt used to be garbage, the cheapest junk available short of the 
Russian steel case stuff. I quit using it and it'd take something special 
before I'd use it again.

Curt

Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android 
 
  On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 7:37 PM, Dan Penoff via 
Mercedes wrote:   I’ve got a box of Remington 
Thunderbolt I’m going to run through it.  I’ve heard it’s good, too. I have 
also heard good things about CCI minimag as well.

I’ve got the day off tomorrow, so I’m planning on a lot of range time in the 
morning.  Probably do a full course of clays then switch over to the pistol 
range and try out the P22 and work out the PPQ, all before lunch.

-D


> On Nov 9, 2017, at 6:43 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Make sure she learns NOT to hit the (cheap prastic) front sight when clearing 
> a stovepipe.  (So the sight does not gat wiped off into the dirt) There is a 
> long article about how to make a few modifications so it will eat most 
> anything you feed it.  Otherwise, the consensus it to use CCI  mini mag.
> 
>> Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>> November 7, 2017 at 4:48 PM
>> The wife is getting a really nice nickel plated Walther P22 for Christmas. 
>> Should be here any day. It will make her happy to shoot, as there’s little 
>> recoil or lift, and it’s much smaller than anything else we have so it’s 
>> easy to handle.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Thanks, Scott, I’ll look into that.

I just got done cleaning it and was not happy with the amount of lead I got out 
of the barrel with only 100 rounds being put through it.  I suspect that it’s 
the Remington Thunderbolt ammo I used. I did some research and found that it’s 
prone to fouling according to a number of people.

I’m going back to the range tomorrow morning with a box of CCI Stinger and 
Federal Automatch and see how they do.  I’m not going to mess with the sights 
until I’ve put some other ammo through it to see how it performs.

And after fighting with that stupid recoil spring and pin, I ordered a 
stainless recoil spring from Galloway Precision. They have a recoil spring 
that’s captive on the pin and far easier to manage.

-D


> On Nov 10, 2017, at 7:46 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
> > wrote:
> 
> Dan,
> The main tweak I'd recommend for the P22 is smoothing the trigger bar ears 
> where they ride on the slide. Maybe the new ones are better but sharp edges 
> on my trigger bar produced visible wear to the slide before I smoothed it out 
> (a simple DIY with Dremel tool). The other tweaks are good too but less 
> critical and some are more difficult, IMO.
> Scott
> 

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Thanks, Scott, I’ll look into that.

I just got done cleaning it and was not happy with the amount of lead I got out 
of the barrel with only 100 rounds being put through it.  I suspect that it’s 
the Remington Thunderbolt ammo I used. I did some research and found that it’s 
prone to fouling according to a number of people.

I’m going back to the range tomorrow morning with a box of CCI Stinger and 
Federal Automatch and see how they do.  I’m not going to mess with the sights 
until I’ve put some other ammo through it to see how it performs.

And after fighting with that stupid recoil spring and pin, I ordered a 
stainless recoil spring from Galloway Precision. They have a recoil spring 
that’s captive on the pin and far easier to manage.

-D


> On Nov 10, 2017, at 7:46 PM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Dan,
> The main tweak I'd recommend for the P22 is smoothing the trigger bar ears 
> where they ride on the slide. Maybe the new ones are better but sharp edges 
> on my trigger bar produced visible wear to the slide before I smoothed it out 
> (a simple DIY with Dremel tool). The other tweaks are good too but less 
> critical and some are more difficult, IMO.
> Scott
> 

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Dan,
The main tweak I'd recommend for the P22 is smoothing the trigger bar ears 
where they ride on the slide. Maybe the new ones are better but sharp edges on 
my trigger bar produced visible wear to the slide before I smoothed it out (a 
simple DIY with Dremel tool). The other tweaks are good too but less critical 
and some are more difficult, IMO.
Scott

> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan
> Penoff via Mercedes
> Sent: Friday, November 10, 2017 6:13 AM
> To: Mercedes List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> Cc: Dan Penoff <d...@penoff.com>
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase
> 
> Thanks, Scott.
> 
> I’ve had a couple of people point out the “P22 Bible” that’s listed in the
> Walther pistol forum.  I saw it probably a week or two ago while researching
> this model.  Lots of good information there, and a takedown that’s probably
> father than I would ever go.
> 
> No interest in personal protection here, just target shooting for the wife
> so she can get out on the range with the boys and their bigger pistols. For
> that matter, I can’t see a lot of value in a .22 for personal protection
> myself - you would probably just make the victim mad, not hurt them….
> 
> I love my PPQ as far as the grip goes.  I have big hands but I didn’t need
> to change the backstrap from the standard one that came on the pistol from
> Walther.  I’m getting my finger/trigger technique down now so I’m pulling
> consistently.  I shot steels last week and probably hit about 80% of them,
> maybe more.
> 
> -D
> 
> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Sounds like you need to adjust the sights.  or make sure the prastic 
front sight is seated correctly




Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
November 10, 2017 at 12:13 PM
Agreed. It has a very, very nice trigger pull. I wish my PPQ had a 
trigger like that.


I had the RSO who is a competition shooter try it, too. He had the 
same results. It shot level for sure, just offset to the left almost 
exactly 4”.


-D


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I was using Remington Thunderbolts, which I’m not finding are not good for this 
pistol as the bare lead fouls the rifling, according to a number of users.  
Looks like CCI or Remington Golden Bullets are the best based on a pretty big 
consensus of users.

I got some CCIs at Wally World today, may take them down to the range tomorrow 
and try them out.

-D

> On Nov 10, 2017, at 1:26 PM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> My LC9S shoots left and low from where it is aimed.  Out of the box.  I need 
> to twiddle with it and get it sighted in.
> 
> --FT
> 
> 
> On 11/10/17 1:13 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:
>> Agreed.  It has a very, very nice trigger pull. I wish my PPQ had a trigger 
>> like that.
>> 
>> I had the RSO who is a competition shooter try it, too.  He had the same 
>> results.  It shot level for sure, just offset to the left almost exactly 4”.
>> 
>> -D
>> 


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

My LC9S shoots left and low from where it is aimed.  Out of the box.  I 
need to twiddle with it and get it sighted in.


--FT


On 11/10/17 1:13 PM, Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

Agreed.  It has a very, very nice trigger pull. I wish my PPQ had a trigger 
like that.

I had the RSO who is a competition shooter try it, too.  He had the same 
results.  It shot level for sure, just offset to the left almost exactly 4”.

-D



On Nov 10, 2017, at 1:06 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  
wrote:



On November 10, 2017 at 11:42 AM Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
 wrote:

The thing shot to the left of center about 4” consistently.  Not sure if that’s 
the pistol or the ammo.

Yanking the trigger makes a right handed shooter shoot left and usually low.
Not saying that's the case, just mentioning a possibility.
Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Agreed.  It has a very, very nice trigger pull. I wish my PPQ had a trigger 
like that.

I had the RSO who is a competition shooter try it, too.  He had the same 
results.  It shot level for sure, just offset to the left almost exactly 4”.

-D


> On Nov 10, 2017, at 1:06 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On November 10, 2017 at 11:42 AM Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> The thing shot to the left of center about 4” consistently.  Not sure if 
>> that’s the pistol or the ammo.  
> 
> Yanking the trigger makes a right handed shooter shoot left and usually low. 
> Not saying that's the case, just mentioning a possibility. 
> Mitch.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On November 10, 2017 at 11:42 AM Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> The thing shot to the left of center about 4” consistently.  Not sure if 
> that’s the pistol or the ammo.  

Yanking the trigger makes a right handed shooter shoot left and usually low. 
Not saying that's the case, just mentioning a possibility. 
Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Shot the P22 this morning.  heh.  A peashooter compared to my PPQ, which I tool 
along some I would have some contrast.

The thing shot to the left of center about 4” consistently.  Not sure if that’s 
the pistol or the ammo.  I shot Remington .22 Thunderbolt ammo. I had a couple 
of “failed to feed” issues, but that could have been due to the gun being new.  
No misfires, so I’m thinking it’s the gun, not the ammo.

I’ve got some Federal .22LR as well, so next time out I’ll try that and see how 
it shoots.  I need to get some CCI minimag for it.

Shot the Lanber O/U on the short course.  Couldn’t hit the side of the barn 
today for some reason. My shooting coach is going to be around on Sunday, so I 
booked a few hours of his time.

-D

 
> On Nov 10, 2017, at 8:41 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On November 10, 2017 at 12:40 AM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Dan,
>> I have had a P22 for several years and it's a sweet little pistol.  Mine is 
>> plain black and I paid too much but ammo is cheap.  Like all semi's, some 
>> ammo (like subsonic) will not work but Remington Golden Bullets always 
>> worked for me. 
> 
> Don't know about the P22, but my GSG .22 conversion kit in my stainless 1911 
> (stainless frames have more slide friction, so that might be part of it) 
> doesn't like Federal Champion and really doesn't like Federal Automatch, even 
> though the Federal has the same advertised velocity as the Remington and CCI 
> stuff that works fine in it. My friend's 22/45 eats anything within reason.
> My other fried's Woodsman Target Model doesn't like Automatch. 
> 
> I bought 3 boxes of Golden Bullets a couple of days ago, Fedex is supposed to 
> deliver today. Free shipping and $10/box rebate from Remington:
> https://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/remington-golden-bullet-hp-22-lr-36-grain-rimfire-rifle-ammunition#repChildCatid=173661
> https://www.remington.com/sites/default/files/rebate/file/Pre%20Black%20Friday%20Ammo.pdf
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On November 10, 2017 at 12:40 AM Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Dan,
> I have had a P22 for several years and it's a sweet little pistol.  Mine is 
> plain black and I paid too much but ammo is cheap.  Like all semi's, some 
> ammo (like subsonic) will not work but Remington Golden Bullets always worked 
> for me. 

Don't know about the P22, but my GSG .22 conversion kit in my stainless 1911 
(stainless frames have more slide friction, so that might be part of it) 
doesn't like Federal Champion and really doesn't like Federal Automatch, even 
though the Federal has the same advertised velocity as the Remington and CCI 
stuff that works fine in it. My friend's 22/45 eats anything within reason.
My other fried's Woodsman Target Model doesn't like Automatch. 
 
I bought 3 boxes of Golden Bullets a couple of days ago, Fedex is supposed to 
deliver today. Free shipping and $10/box rebate from Remington:
https://www.academy.com/shop/pdp/remington-golden-bullet-hp-22-lr-36-grain-rimfire-rifle-ammunition#repChildCatid=173661
https://www.remington.com/sites/default/files/rebate/file/Pre%20Black%20Friday%20Ammo.pdf

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

Thanks, Scott.

I’ve had a couple of people point out the “P22 Bible” that’s listed in the 
Walther pistol forum.  I saw it probably a week or two ago while researching 
this model.  Lots of good information there, and a takedown that’s probably 
father than I would ever go.

No interest in personal protection here, just target shooting for the wife so 
she can get out on the range with the boys and their bigger pistols. For that 
matter, I can’t see a lot of value in a .22 for personal protection myself - 
you would probably just make the victim mad, not hurt them….

I love my PPQ as far as the grip goes.  I have big hands but I didn’t need to 
change the backstrap from the standard one that came on the pistol from 
Walther.  I’m getting my finger/trigger technique down now so I’m pulling 
consistently.  I shot steels last week and probably hit about 80% of them, 
maybe more.

-D


> On Nov 10, 2017, at 12:40 AM, Scott Ritchey via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Dan,
> I have had a P22 for several years and it's a sweet little pistol.  Mine is 
> plain black and I paid too much but ammo is cheap.  Like all semi's, some 
> ammo (like subsonic) will not work but Remington Golden Bullets always worked 
> for me.  There is a lot of info online about tweaking this model, for example:
> https://www.gunfactory.ch/download/Walther_P22_bible.pdf
> Some of the tweaks are worthwhile improvements.  
> The barrel is fixed to the frame so disassembly is a bit nonstandard and 
> reassembly normally requires a tool, like a piece of cleaning rod, to align 
> the recoil spring while you work the slide back into place.  The slide is 
> some kind of light weight material that's softer than steel or aluminum so 
> minimize tripping the slide release to avoid unnecessary wear.  
> Overall, the P22 is not a serious defensive weapon but its fun for practice 
> and plinking and the grip size is good for smaller hands.
> If moving up to a larger caliper, I'm pleased with my S shield for 
> concealed.  I love my CZ 75 but I find the grip a bit wide for my hands.  I 
> also have a P95 and M 9, but I don't have any favorites in full-size 9mms. 
> Scott


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Scott Ritchey via Mercedes]

Dan,
I have had a P22 for several years and it's a sweet little pistol.  Mine is 
plain black and I paid too much but ammo is cheap.  Like all semi's, some ammo 
(like subsonic) will not work but Remington Golden Bullets always worked for 
me.  There is a lot of info online about tweaking this model, for example:
https://www.gunfactory.ch/download/Walther_P22_bible.pdf
Some of the tweaks are worthwhile improvements.  
The barrel is fixed to the frame so disassembly is a bit nonstandard and 
reassembly normally requires a tool, like a piece of cleaning rod, to align the 
recoil spring while you work the slide back into place.  The slide is some kind 
of light weight material that's softer than steel or aluminum so minimize 
tripping the slide release to avoid unnecessary wear.  
Overall, the P22 is not a serious defensive weapon but its fun for practice and 
plinking and the grip size is good for smaller hands.
If moving up to a larger caliper, I'm pleased with my S shield for concealed. 
 I love my CZ 75 but I find the grip a bit wide for my hands.  I also have a 
P95 and M 9, but I don't have any favorites in full-size 9mms. 
Scott

> -Original Message-
> From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of
> Dan--- via Mercedes
> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:40 AM
> To: Mercedes Discussion List <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> Cc: d...@penoff.com
> Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase
> 
> I had been looking at the Walther P22 as a good pistol for her to start out 
> with.
> She got indoctrinated a few months ago with a 9mm S semi auto of some
> flavor at my brother in law's range, but it was clearly big and difficult for 
> her to
> handle due to the size, weight and ammo type.
> 
> I asked her recently if she would go to the range with us if I could find her
> something easier for her to shoot, and she said yes. The P22 was the first 
> thing
> that came to mind, so I started looking for one. The local retailer I've
> frequented had them on their web site for $229, but no stock in the plain 
> black
> model, only the nickel plated and fancy colored versions (ugh!) I started
> looking around on gunbroker.com and stumbled across a fixed price auction a
> sporting goods store in MO had for a bunch of brand new nickel plated
> versions. They wanted $239.00 plus shipping. With that and my FFL fee I was
> still well below what the same model would have cost me anywhere else, so I
> pulled the trigger and ordered one. Should be here in a day or two.
> 
> I'm going to take it out and shoot it to check it out and get familiar with it
> before it goes to her.  Should be fun.
> 
> -D
> 
> > On Nov 8, 2017, at 10:05 AM, MG via Mercedes <mercedes@okiebenz.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > A few years ago I gave my #1 daughter a nice little .380 Llama that I had. 
> > She
> loves it. Looks like a miniature version of the 1911 with the grip safety and 
> all.
> Had some very nice scroll work on the slide.
> >
> > Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:
> >> The wife is getting a really nice nickel plated Walther P22 for Christmas.
> Should be here any day.  It will make her happy to shoot, as there’s little 
> recoil
> or lift, and it’s much smaller than anything else we have so it’s easy to 
> handle.
> >> -D
> >>> On Nov 7, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes
> <mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> #1 daughter did way better with a (US made Karl/Rem) P22 than with the
> luger load in a cz.  She did substantially better with a P226 in 40 smith than
> with the cz/luger, but not as good as with the p22.
> >>>
> >>> Moral of the story is:  get what you like that fits well, and does what 
> >>> you
> expect it to.  While the p22 may not be considered pow'ful 'nuff for CC, 120
> grains (3 x 40)  from it delivered accurately may be better than any number of
> grains delivered less accurately.
> >>>
> >>> the 1911 will bite your hand too.
> >>>> Max Dillon via Mercedes <mailto:mercedes@okiebenz.com> November
> 7,
> >>>> 2017 at 4:32 PM The 1911 is a classic, for good reason. I know
> >>>> nothing about the various makers versions, hopefully someone else will
> chime in. I only shot that a couple times, and I was not very accurate with 
> it,
> but getting better with time. Any gun is not much use if you can't hit what
> you're aiming at...
> >>> ___
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> >>>
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> >>>
> >>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
> &

Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Mountain Man via Mercedes]

Max wrote:
> Sadly in this particular case the AF dropped the ball...

Waaay too many explanations, justifications, etc for this to be
anything but crisis actors.  The AK was being wielded by a barefoot
guy who flagged a pickup driver?  Too much sounds fishy.  This tragedy
is a ploy that will never be figured out.  We are being played.
tin.man

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Greg Fiorentino via Mercedes]

I carried a M92 daily for several years (the double action only (DAO) version 
called the "Brigadier". It works, it is pretty reliable, but I did not love it. 
I have also carried a Glock 19 and an HK USP Compact in .40. My preference 
would be for the Glock or H If you want self-defense capability, I recommend 
the .40 greatly over the 9.

Also, size and weight are a detriment to concealed carry. It's a lot more 
pleasant to carry something lighter weight. I believe that the polymer of the 
Glock and H help to absorb recoil. I worked with some agents who worked 
anti-narcotics in the jungles of South America, and they claimed that the 
anti-corrosion finish on the steel parts of the Glock resisted corrosion much 
better than others' stainless pistols. IME the Glock 19 had annoying snappy 
recoil with 9 mm +P+ ammo, but handled nicely with regular 9 mm ammo.

I think recovery for subsequent shots is faster and more natural with the Glock 
or the H than with the Beretta.

As far as grip is concerned: a consistent grip is a critical part of accuracy 
with a handgun. Revolvers tend to have a more rounded grip which lends itself 
to more consistency. A pistol (semi-auto) requires more practice to achieve the 
same level of consistency.

I would rate the Glock easiest to shoot well, followed by the H, with the 
Beretta last.

HTH

Greg

-Original Message-
From: Mercedes [mailto:mercedes-boun...@okiebenz.com] On Behalf Of Dan--- via 
Mercedes
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2017 12:12 PM
To: Mercedes List
Cc: d...@penoff.com
Subject: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

I was giving some thought to buying a Beretta 92 FS.

Any fellow listers familiar with this pistol, or have some direct experience 
they might want to share?

Thanks,

Dan

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

I’ve got a box of Remington Thunderbolt I’m going to run through it.  I’ve 
heard it’s good, too. I have also heard good things about CCI minimag as well.

I’ve got the day off tomorrow, so I’m planning on a lot of range time in the 
morning.  Probably do a full course of clays then switch over to the pistol 
range and try out the P22 and work out the PPQ, all before lunch.

-D


> On Nov 9, 2017, at 6:43 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Make sure she learns NOT to hit the (cheap prastic) front sight when clearing 
> a stovepipe.  (So the sight does not gat wiped off into the dirt) There is a 
> long article about how to make a few modifications so it will eat most 
> anything you feed it.  Otherwise, the consensus it to use CCI  mini mag.
> 
>> Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
>> November 7, 2017 at 4:48 PM
>> The wife is getting a really nice nickel plated Walther P22 for Christmas. 
>> Should be here any day. It will make her happy to shoot, as there’s little 
>> recoil or lift, and it’s much smaller than anything else we have so it’s 
>> easy to handle.
>> 
>> -D
>> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

That is the malibu analog Overrated, but common.


Dan--- via Mercedes 
November 8, 2017 at 11:39 AM
I'm sure it's no difference than our affinity for Mercedes, but since 
I've become more aware of the pistol world, it seems like some people 
have a reverence for Glocks that is like no other.


Or is that just me?

-D




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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

Make sure she learns NOT to hit the (cheap prastic) front sight when 
clearing a stovepipe.  (So the sight does not gat wiped off into the 
dirt) There is a long article about how to make a few modifications so 
it will eat most anything you feed it.  Otherwise, the consensus it to 
use CCI  mini mag.



Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
November 7, 2017 at 4:48 PM
The wife is getting a really nice nickel plated Walther P22 for 
Christmas. Should be here any day. It will make her happy to shoot, as 
there’s little recoil or lift, and it’s much smaller than anything 
else we have so it’s easy to handle.


-D



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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On November 9, 2017 at 9:33 AM Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> $5,200 USD

I think he wants $7800 on CL. 

$5200 at CoPart is $5778 for a dealer or $6168 for an individual bidder once 
you include the fees. I wonder if his CoPart reserve price is $7800 plus seller 
fees, which might push an unlicensed bidder into five digits?

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

$5,200 USD

Seller Reserve Not Yet Met
That's crazy
--FT

On 11/8/17 11:42 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

If Dan buys a finnie, he won't have money for extra pistols...
https://www.copart.com/lot/36651357

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.



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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Larry Turner via Mercedes]

Hi Max,
    You and I have different impressions of the FS92/M9 as  I never had 
any mag failures but I never practiced fast mag changes like you 
either.    Of course, with your military needs I can see how you would 
be critical of the mag problems.
    My FS did come with 3 quality all metal mags, and while  doing 
range shooting at paper targets there were never any problems.  I keep 
the gun loaded with a 18 rd (IIRC) mag - if I can't defuse a problem 
with all those 9mm rounds I need something besides a pistol.

Larry



On 11/07/2017 3:27 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes wrote:

That looks to be the same pistol that is standard issue military now.  I
was not impressed with them, they did not stand up well to hard use
(magazines).  The military magazines were cheap, had plastic cap on the
bottom to hold the spring in and after the mag was dropped on the deck too
many times, that plastic would crack and finally break (usually when you
were inserting a fresh magazine) and then all the ammo would just dump out
onto the ground.  Very frustrating during range time, deadly under combat
conditions.  If you can get higher quality magazines with all metal
construction, do that.  The few armorers that I talked with about them also
did not like them much.  They are easy to field strip and clean, which is a
plus.

In addition, the recoil (when shooting military ball which was probably
P+P) was not to my liking, too much muzzle climb.  My hand was a little too
small for the grips, so I had to pay close attention to always get the same
hand position for accurate shooting, and then the safety lever and the
slide release were hard to reach single-handed.  In order to release the
safety, I had to shift my hand to reach it and then shift back, which I
hated doing.

My only comparisons against which I measure this pistol is against a
Browning Hi Power (superb, but very expensive) or against a 1911 .45, which
kicks like hell but has the stopping power to go with that kick, so a good
trade-off for a military weapon.  My hand fit both of those pistols very
well.

I would never purchase one more for the hand fitment issue than anything
else.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Dan--- via Mercedes 
wrote:


I was giving some thought to buying a Beretta 92 FS.

Any fellow listers familiar with this pistol, or have some direct
experience they might want to share?

Thanks,

Dan

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

Larry did you purchase that via the "gun show loop hole"?  Glad to hear you
like it, I'm not a fan.

I watched NPR a couple nights ago, some D senator on the most recent mass
shooting in TX kept hammering on about the gun show loop hole, he must have
mentioned it about 20 times.  Completely ignored the fact that the TX
church shooter purchased his guns illegally, no additional laws would have
stopped him.  Sadly in this particular case the AF dropped the ball and did
not enter his felony conviction for domestic violence into the NCIC
database (actually Naval Consolidated Brig in Miramar may be taking the
heat, as that is where he was imprisoned, but I'm not sure if the staff
there was supposed to do that or the AF bubbas at the court martial that
convicted and sentenced him).

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Thu, Nov 9, 2017 at 8:54 AM, Larry Turner via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> I bought a new FS92 at a gun show and it's a great gun.  It runs thru 9mm
> ammo of any kind whether sore bought on home reloaded.  I even started
> using cast bullets without issues.
>
> If you find the 92 you want I don't think you'll be disappointed.
>
> LarryT
>
> 91 300D
>
>
>
> On 11/07/2017 3:11 PM, Dan--- via Mercedes wrote:
>
>> I was giving some thought to buying a Beretta 92 FS.
>>
>> Any fellow listers familiar with this pistol, or have some direct
>> experience they might want to share?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Dan
>>
>> ___
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>>
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>>
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>>
>>
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Larry Turner via Mercedes]

I bought a new FS92 at a gun show and it's a great gun.  It runs thru 
9mm ammo of any kind whether sore bought on home reloaded.  I even 
started using cast bullets without issues.


If you find the 92 you want I don't think you'll be disappointed.

LarryT

91 300D



On 11/07/2017 3:11 PM, Dan--- via Mercedes wrote:

I was giving some thought to buying a Beretta 92 FS.

Any fellow listers familiar with this pistol, or have some direct experience 
they might want to share?

Thanks,

Dan

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

That’s been on the Indy CL.  Wonder what it’s doing on Coparts?

Note the “Est. Retail Value”.  Uh, yeah, right.  Pretty much the same approach 
the seller had when it was on CL.

-D


> On Nov 8, 2017, at 11:42 PM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> If Dan buys a finnie, he won't have money for extra pistols...
> https://www.copart.com/lot/36651357
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

If Dan buys a finnie, he won't have money for extra pistols...
https://www.copart.com/lot/36651357

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Jim Cathey via Mercedes]

>
> some people have a reverence for Glocks that is like no other.

...The brand has quite a reputation for reliability.
>

Glock was early into the 'appliance' pistol market, and is a high-quality
product.  They are extremely reliable and durable, and an excellent choice
for a utilitarian piece.  I think they're incredibly bland, but they are an
excellent choice where functionality is paramount.  My favorite story is
about the pistol that was lost by a diver in the ocean, and recovered a
year later on another dive.  After a thorough cleaning it was completely
functional, and undamaged by its year in sea water!

-- Jim
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[MG via Mercedes]

Ah yes I missed that one. That is very close. Mine however had 
the top surface of the scroll work bright polished which set it 
off very nicely from the background. It was probably a few years 
older back from the late 70's or early 80's.


Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

On November 8, 2017 at 1:12 PM MG via Mercedes  wrote:


That is the kind but none of them have the fancy scroll work on 
the slide.


This isn't it?
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/714282678

(I missed the fact that the price got up to $385 by bidding and wasn't the 
starting bid)

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On November 8, 2017 at 1:12 PM MG via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> 
> That is the kind but none of them have the fancy scroll work on 
> the slide.

This isn't it?
http://www.gunbroker.com/item/714282678

(I missed the fact that the price got up to $385 by bidding and wasn't the 
starting bid)

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[G Mann via Mercedes]

Suggest anyone interested could attend a gun show nearby and take the
opportunity to handle a very wide variety of pistols to see "what fits"
your individual hand and finger reach. Once you get a feel for "what might
fit" call around for a local gun range that has pistols for rent and try
your selections in actual use for a while, at the range. Run a box of ammo
through each selection to get the full experience of how it works "just for
you".

Then make a decision. Pistol selection is sort of on the same scale as
picking a wife [or next ex-wife, as a friend says]. It is not "one size
fits all" regardless of the following a particular maker may have.

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

>
> > On November 8, 2017 at 12:39 PM Dan--- via Mercedes <
> mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I'm sure it's no difference than our affinity for Mercedes, but since
> I've become more aware of the pistol world, it seems like some people have
> a reverence for Glocks that is like no other.
>
> There are indeed Glock snobs out there. The brand has quite a reputation
> for reliability.
> There's enough different models that if one wants to use only Glock
> pistols they don't have to compromise much for any particular use.
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[MG via Mercedes]

That is the kind but none of them have the fancy scroll work on 
the slide.


Mitch Haley via Mercedes wrote:

On November 8, 2017 at 10:05 AM MG via Mercedes  wrote:


A few years ago I gave my #1 daughter a nice little .380 Llama 
that I had. She loves it. Looks like a miniature version of the 
1911 with the grip safety and all. Had some very nice scroll work 
on the slide.


You see them on Gunbroker for $400 a lot.
Right now there's one up for auction, should be interesting to see how far under $400 it ends up. $277 now. 
http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=380%20llama


Colt had the Mustang in .380ACP/9mm Kurz, a lot like a 1911 without the grip 
safety. Sig updated it a bit and called it the P238, and enlarged it a hair to 
9x19 Luger, added an ambidextrous safety and called it the P938. I like my P938 
a lot better than my mom's LC380.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On November 8, 2017 at 12:39 PM Dan--- via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> I'm sure it's no difference than our affinity for Mercedes, but since I've 
> become more aware of the pistol world, it seems like some people have a 
> reverence for Glocks that is like no other.

There are indeed Glock snobs out there. The brand has quite a reputation for 
reliability. 
There's enough different models that if one wants to use only Glock pistols 
they don't have to compromise much for any particular use.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan--- via Mercedes]

I'm sure it's no difference than our affinity for Mercedes, but since I've 
become more aware of the pistol world, it seems like some people have a 
reverence for Glocks that is like no other.

Or is that just me?

-D

> On Nov 8, 2017, at 11:40 AM, Mitch Haley via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On November 8, 2017 at 9:53 AM Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> I haven't shot one yet, but I also really like the Glock pistols.  A
>> relative familiar with my obsession with the Browning Hi Power recommended
>> that a Glock 17 or 19 would probably be to my liking, but I haven't
>> followed up yet.
> 
> Striker fired polymer framed pistols are a dime a dozen these days. 
> Everybody's making them and competition is pushing prices down. If you don't 
> have at least one feature on your pistol that's 'the best of them all', then 
> you're just selling a commodity item. 
> 
> I've seen advertised prices as low as $269 for Remington's 18 round "Glock", 
> less $100 rebate. When the after rebate price starts looking like 2-3 MBZ 
> tanks full of Premium, that's a cheap gun. 
> 
> Mitch.
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On November 8, 2017 at 10:05 AM MG via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> 
> A few years ago I gave my #1 daughter a nice little .380 Llama 
> that I had. She loves it. Looks like a miniature version of the 
> 1911 with the grip safety and all. Had some very nice scroll work 
> on the slide.

You see them on Gunbroker for $400 a lot.
Right now there's one up for auction, should be interesting to see how far 
under $400 it ends up. $277 now. 
http://www.gunbroker.com/All/BI.aspx?Keywords=380%20llama

Colt had the Mustang in .380ACP/9mm Kurz, a lot like a 1911 without the grip 
safety. Sig updated it a bit and called it the P238, and enlarged it a hair to 
9x19 Luger, added an ambidextrous safety and called it the P938. I like my P938 
a lot better than my mom's LC380.

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Mitch Haley via Mercedes]

> On November 8, 2017 at 9:53 AM Meade Dillon via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> I haven't shot one yet, but I also really like the Glock pistols.  A
> relative familiar with my obsession with the Browning Hi Power recommended
> that a Glock 17 or 19 would probably be to my liking, but I haven't
> followed up yet.

Striker fired polymer framed pistols are a dime a dozen these days. Everybody's 
making them and competition is pushing prices down. If you don't have at least 
one feature on your pistol that's 'the best of them all', then you're just 
selling a commodity item. 

I've seen advertised prices as low as $269 for Remington's 18 round "Glock", 
less $100 rebate. When the after rebate price starts looking like 2-3 MBZ tanks 
full of Premium, that's a cheap gun. 

Mitch.

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan--- via Mercedes]

I had been looking at the Walther P22 as a good pistol for her to start out 
with. She got indoctrinated a few months ago with a 9mm S semi auto of some 
flavor at my brother in law's range, but it was clearly big and difficult for 
her to handle due to the size, weight and ammo type.

I asked her recently if she would go to the range with us if I could find her 
something easier for her to shoot, and she said yes. The P22 was the first 
thing that came to mind, so I started looking for one. The local retailer I've 
frequented had them on their web site for $229, but no stock in the plain black 
model, only the nickel plated and fancy colored versions (ugh!) I started 
looking around on gunbroker.com and stumbled across a fixed price auction a 
sporting goods store in MO had for a bunch of brand new nickel plated versions. 
They wanted $239.00 plus shipping. With that and my FFL fee I was still well 
below what the same model would have cost me anywhere else, so I pulled the 
trigger and ordered one. Should be here in a day or two.

I'm going to take it out and shoot it to check it out and get familiar with it 
before it goes to her.  Should be fun.

-D

> On Nov 8, 2017, at 10:05 AM, MG via Mercedes  wrote:
> 
> A few years ago I gave my #1 daughter a nice little .380 Llama that I had. 
> She loves it. Looks like a miniature version of the 1911 with the grip safety 
> and all. Had some very nice scroll work on the slide.
> 
> Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:
>> The wife is getting a really nice nickel plated Walther P22 for Christmas.  
>> Should be here any day.  It will make her happy to shoot, as there’s little 
>> recoil or lift, and it’s much smaller than anything else we have so it’s 
>> easy to handle.
>> -D
>>> On Nov 7, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> #1 daughter did way better with a (US made Karl/Rem) P22 than with the 
>>> luger load in a cz.  She did substantially better with a P226 in 40 smith 
>>> than with the cz/luger, but not as good as with the p22.
>>> 
>>> Moral of the story is:  get what you like that fits well, and does what you 
>>> expect it to.  While the p22 may not be considered pow'ful 'nuff for CC, 
>>> 120 grains (3 x 40)  from it delivered accurately may be better than any 
>>> number of grains delivered less accurately.
>>> 
>>> the 1911 will bite your hand too.
 Max Dillon via Mercedes 
 November 7, 2017 at 4:32 PM
 The 1911 is a classic, for good reason. I know nothing about the various 
 makers versions, hopefully someone else will chime in. I only shot that a 
 couple times, and I was not very accurate with it, but getting better with 
 time. Any gun is not much use if you can't hit what you're aiming at...
>>> ___
>>> http://www.okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> To search list archives http://www.okiebenz.com/archive/
>>> 
>>> To Unsubscribe or change delivery options go to:
>>> http://mail.okiebenz.com/mailman/listinfo/mercedes_okiebenz.com
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[MG via Mercedes]

A few years ago I gave my #1 daughter a nice little .380 Llama 
that I had. She loves it. Looks like a miniature version of the 
1911 with the grip safety and all. Had some very nice scroll work 
on the slide.


Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

The wife is getting a really nice nickel plated Walther P22 for Christmas.  
Should be here any day.  It will make her happy to shoot, as there’s little 
recoil or lift, and it’s much smaller than anything else we have so it’s easy 
to handle.

-D



On Nov 7, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes  
wrote:

#1 daughter did way better with a (US made Karl/Rem) P22 than with the luger 
load in a cz.  She did substantially better with a P226 in 40 smith than with 
the cz/luger, but not as good as with the p22.

Moral of the story is:  get what you like that fits well, and does what you 
expect it to.  While the p22 may not be considered pow'ful 'nuff for CC, 120 
grains (3 x 40)  from it delivered accurately may be better than any number of 
grains delivered less accurately.

the 1911 will bite your hand too.

Max Dillon via Mercedes 
November 7, 2017 at 4:32 PM
The 1911 is a classic, for good reason. I know nothing about the various makers 
versions, hopefully someone else will chime in. I only shot that a couple 
times, and I was not very accurate with it, but getting better with time. Any 
gun is not much use if you can't hit what you're aiming at...

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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan--- via Mercedes]

I saw one of the 92s in stainless last weekend and was taken in. A beautiful 
piece of workmanship, I thought. I had never seen one close up.

Youngest son is a big HK fan. I'm not sure the premium they get for their 
hardware is justified, compared to similar models by other manufacturers. He's 
got a VP40, which is a nice pistol, but I like my Walther PPQ 9mm better. He 
even admits it's easier to shoot than his VP40.

I have spoken to Mitch about his 1911s. That is a far more desirable firearm 
(to me) than the 92 FS. I will probably go in that direction.

Thanks to all for input.

-D

> On Nov 8, 2017, at 9:42 AM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> Have you looked at the HKs?  Nice stuff, but maybe a bit spendy. But it is in 
> keeping with our other addiction.
> 
> I got a Ruger LC9S, I tried 3 or 4 others, this one seemed most comfortable 
> in my hand and seems to have some nice features.  Out of the box the sights 
> are way off, I have not sorted that out yet, waiting on my CWP.  I should 
> probably go to the range and tweak on it, more controlled than the back 
> "yard."
> 
> --FT
> 
> 
>> On 11/7/17 3:11 PM, Dan--- via Mercedes wrote:
>> Beretta 92 FS
> 
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

I haven't shot one yet, but I also really like the Glock pistols.  A
relative familiar with my obsession with the Browning Hi Power recommended
that a Glock 17 or 19 would probably be to my liking, but I haven't
followed up yet.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Wed, Nov 8, 2017 at 9:42 AM, Floyd Thursby via Mercedes <
mercedes@okiebenz.com> wrote:

> Have you looked at the HKs?  Nice stuff, but maybe a bit spendy. But it is
> in keeping with our other addiction.
>
> I got a Ruger LC9S, I tried 3 or 4 others, this one seemed most
> comfortable in my hand and seems to have some nice features.  Out of the
> box the sights are way off, I have not sorted that out yet, waiting on my
> CWP.  I should probably go to the range and tweak on it, more controlled
> than the back "yard."
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Floyd Thursby via Mercedes]

Have you looked at the HKs?  Nice stuff, but maybe a bit spendy. But it 
is in keeping with our other addiction.


I got a Ruger LC9S, I tried 3 or 4 others, this one seemed most 
comfortable in my hand and seems to have some nice features.  Out of the 
box the sights are way off, I have not sorted that out yet, waiting on 
my CWP.  I should probably go to the range and tweak on it, more 
controlled than the back "yard."


--FT


On 11/7/17 3:11 PM, Dan--- via Mercedes wrote:

Beretta 92 FS



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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[MG via Mercedes]

I like the 92 series. The larger grip is comfortable for me as I 
like something that I can get a grip on. I haven't had a jam but 
that may just be a matter of time. I have all steel magazines so 
no problems with plastic breaking. I hate plastic. No matter what 
you decide to get I would recommend Pachmayr grips. One of the 
first changes I made nice to hold on to. I bought a Ruger 44 
magnum that had them and loved them.


Dan Penoff via Mercedes wrote:

It is.

That being said, much of my research has brought up issues such as the ones you 
mentioned, like the size of the grip.  I believe the magazines on the ones sold 
for private use are more substantial, at least the ones I saw were.

I was also looking at Remington 1911s as well.  Thoughts on that?

Thank you!

-D



On Nov 7, 2017, at 3:27 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes  
wrote:

That looks to be the same pistol that is standard issue military now.  I
was not impressed with them, they did not stand up well to hard use
(magazines).  The military magazines were cheap, had plastic cap on the
bottom to hold the spring in and after the mag was dropped on the deck too
many times, that plastic would crack and finally break (usually when you
were inserting a fresh magazine) and then all the ammo would just dump out
onto the ground.  Very frustrating during range time, deadly under combat
conditions.  If you can get higher quality magazines with all metal
construction, do that.  The few armorers that I talked with about them also
did not like them much.  They are easy to field strip and clean, which is a
plus.

In addition, the recoil (when shooting military ball which was probably
P+P) was not to my liking, too much muzzle climb.  My hand was a little too
small for the grips, so I had to pay close attention to always get the same
hand position for accurate shooting, and then the safety lever and the
slide release were hard to reach single-handed.  In order to release the
safety, I had to shift my hand to reach it and then shift back, which I
hated doing.

My only comparisons against which I measure this pistol is against a
Browning Hi Power (superb, but very expensive) or against a 1911 .45, which
kicks like hell but has the stopping power to go with that kick, so a good
trade-off for a military weapon.  My hand fit both of those pistols very
well.

I would never purchase one more for the hand fitment issue than anything
else.

-
Max
Charleston SC



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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Rick Knoble via Mercedes]

Max sez:

>‎That looks to be the same pistol that is >standard issue military now.

They have switched to Sig P320 now. 
At least the Army has. 


http://www.military.com/daily-news/2017/01/19/army-picks-sig-sauer-replace-m9-service-pistol.html

‎https://www.sigsauer.com/products/firearms/pistols/p320/

Rick
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

The wife is getting a really nice nickel plated Walther P22 for Christmas.  
Should be here any day.  It will make her happy to shoot, as there’s little 
recoil or lift, and it’s much smaller than anything else we have so it’s easy 
to handle.

-D


> On Nov 7, 2017, at 5:44 PM, Curley McLain via Mercedes 
>  wrote:
> 
> #1 daughter did way better with a (US made Karl/Rem) P22 than with the luger 
> load in a cz.  She did substantially better with a P226 in 40 smith than with 
> the cz/luger, but not as good as with the p22.
> 
> Moral of the story is:  get what you like that fits well, and does what you 
> expect it to.  While the p22 may not be considered pow'ful 'nuff for CC, 120 
> grains (3 x 40)  from it delivered accurately may be better than any number 
> of grains delivered less accurately.
> 
> the 1911 will bite your hand too.
>> Max Dillon via Mercedes 
>> November 7, 2017 at 4:32 PM
>> The 1911 is a classic, for good reason. I know nothing about the various 
>> makers versions, hopefully someone else will chime in. I only shot that a 
>> couple times, and I was not very accurate with it, but getting better with 
>> time. Any gun is not much use if you can't hit what you're aiming at...
> 
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Curley McLain via Mercedes]

#1 daughter did way better with a (US made Karl/Rem) P22 than with the 
luger load in a cz.  She did substantially better with a P226 in 40 
smith than with the cz/luger, but not as good as with the p22.


Moral of the story is:  get what you like that fits well, and does what 
you expect it to.  While the p22 may not be considered pow'ful 'nuff for 
CC, 120 grains (3 x 40)  from it delivered accurately may be better than 
any number of grains delivered less accurately.


the 1911 will bite your hand too.

Max Dillon via Mercedes 
November 7, 2017 at 4:32 PM
The 1911 is a classic, for good reason. I know nothing about the 
various makers versions, hopefully someone else will chime in. I only 
shot that a couple times, and I was not very accurate with it, but 
getting better with time. Any gun is not much use if you can't hit 
what you're aiming at...


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Max Dillon via Mercedes]

The 1911 is a classic, for good reason.  I know nothing about the various 
makers versions, hopefully someone else will chime in.  I only shot that a 
couple times, and I was not very accurate with it, but getting better with 
time.  Any gun is not much use if you can't hit what you're aiming at...
-- 
Max Dillon
Charleston SC
'87 300TD
'95 E300

On November 7, 2017 5:16:11 PM EST, Dan Penoff via Mercedes 
 wrote:
>It is.
>
>That being said, much of my research has brought up issues such as the
>ones you mentioned, like the size of the grip.  I believe the magazines
>on the ones sold for private use are more substantial, at least the
>ones I saw were.
>
>I was also looking at Remington 1911s as well.  Thoughts on that?
>
>Thank you!
>
>-D
>
>
>> On Nov 7, 2017, at 3:27 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes
> wrote:
>> 
>> That looks to be the same pistol that is standard issue military now.
> I
>> was not impressed with them, they did not stand up well to hard use
>> (magazines).  The military magazines were cheap, had plastic cap on
>the
>> bottom to hold the spring in and after the mag was dropped on the
>deck too
>> many times, that plastic would crack and finally break (usually when
>you
>> were inserting a fresh magazine) and then all the ammo would just
>dump out
>> onto the ground.  Very frustrating during range time, deadly under
>combat
>> conditions.  If you can get higher quality magazines with all metal
>> construction, do that.  The few armorers that I talked with about
>them also
>> did not like them much.  They are easy to field strip and clean,
>which is a
>> plus.
>> 
>> In addition, the recoil (when shooting military ball which was
>probably
>> P+P) was not to my liking, too much muzzle climb.  My hand was a
>little too
>> small for the grips, so I had to pay close attention to always get
>the same
>> hand position for accurate shooting, and then the safety lever and
>the
>> slide release were hard to reach single-handed.  In order to release
>the
>> safety, I had to shift my hand to reach it and then shift back, which
>I
>> hated doing.
>> 
>> My only comparisons against which I measure this pistol is against a
>> Browning Hi Power (superb, but very expensive) or against a 1911 .45,
>which
>> kicks like hell but has the stopping power to go with that kick, so a
>good
>> trade-off for a military weapon.  My hand fit both of those pistols
>very
>> well.
>> 
>> I would never purchase one more for the hand fitment issue than
>anything
>> else.
>> 
>> -
>> Max
>> Charleston SC
>
>
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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan Penoff via Mercedes]

It is.

That being said, much of my research has brought up issues such as the ones you 
mentioned, like the size of the grip.  I believe the magazines on the ones sold 
for private use are more substantial, at least the ones I saw were.

I was also looking at Remington 1911s as well.  Thoughts on that?

Thank you!

-D


> On Nov 7, 2017, at 3:27 PM, Meade Dillon via Mercedes  
> wrote:
> 
> That looks to be the same pistol that is standard issue military now.  I
> was not impressed with them, they did not stand up well to hard use
> (magazines).  The military magazines were cheap, had plastic cap on the
> bottom to hold the spring in and after the mag was dropped on the deck too
> many times, that plastic would crack and finally break (usually when you
> were inserting a fresh magazine) and then all the ammo would just dump out
> onto the ground.  Very frustrating during range time, deadly under combat
> conditions.  If you can get higher quality magazines with all metal
> construction, do that.  The few armorers that I talked with about them also
> did not like them much.  They are easy to field strip and clean, which is a
> plus.
> 
> In addition, the recoil (when shooting military ball which was probably
> P+P) was not to my liking, too much muzzle climb.  My hand was a little too
> small for the grips, so I had to pay close attention to always get the same
> hand position for accurate shooting, and then the safety lever and the
> slide release were hard to reach single-handed.  In order to release the
> safety, I had to shift my hand to reach it and then shift back, which I
> hated doing.
> 
> My only comparisons against which I measure this pistol is against a
> Browning Hi Power (superb, but very expensive) or against a 1911 .45, which
> kicks like hell but has the stopping power to go with that kick, so a good
> trade-off for a military weapon.  My hand fit both of those pistols very
> well.
> 
> I would never purchase one more for the hand fitment issue than anything
> else.
> 
> -
> Max
> Charleston SC


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Re: [MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Meade Dillon via Mercedes]

That looks to be the same pistol that is standard issue military now.  I
was not impressed with them, they did not stand up well to hard use
(magazines).  The military magazines were cheap, had plastic cap on the
bottom to hold the spring in and after the mag was dropped on the deck too
many times, that plastic would crack and finally break (usually when you
were inserting a fresh magazine) and then all the ammo would just dump out
onto the ground.  Very frustrating during range time, deadly under combat
conditions.  If you can get higher quality magazines with all metal
construction, do that.  The few armorers that I talked with about them also
did not like them much.  They are easy to field strip and clean, which is a
plus.

In addition, the recoil (when shooting military ball which was probably
P+P) was not to my liking, too much muzzle climb.  My hand was a little too
small for the grips, so I had to pay close attention to always get the same
hand position for accurate shooting, and then the safety lever and the
slide release were hard to reach single-handed.  In order to release the
safety, I had to shift my hand to reach it and then shift back, which I
hated doing.

My only comparisons against which I measure this pistol is against a
Browning Hi Power (superb, but very expensive) or against a 1911 .45, which
kicks like hell but has the stopping power to go with that kick, so a good
trade-off for a military weapon.  My hand fit both of those pistols very
well.

I would never purchase one more for the hand fitment issue than anything
else.

-
Max
Charleston SC

On Tue, Nov 7, 2017 at 3:11 PM, Dan--- via Mercedes 
wrote:

> I was giving some thought to buying a Beretta 92 FS.
>
> Any fellow listers familiar with this pistol, or have some direct
> experience they might want to share?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dan
>
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[MBZ] OT - Next Pistol Purchase

[Dan--- via Mercedes]

I was giving some thought to buying a Beretta 92 FS.

Any fellow listers familiar with this pistol, or have some direct experience 
they might want to share?

Thanks,

Dan

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