Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
--- Daniel Jorge Caetano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:19:07 -0700 (PDT), "ðiogo" Sperb Schneider wrote: Nonsense. With a poorly designed kernel you will have a bad performance of any application, even the better programmed applications. Performance shouldn't be a worry at development stage. You were talking about Uzix as a Linux port. It's not. Linux is linux. Uzix is Uzix... No. Read it again. = __ Ðiogo Sperb Schneider - [EMAIL PROTECTED] See me @ http://www.geocities.com/enthusiast78 "When I say Van Halen I mean David Lee Roth!!" __ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] See also http://www.faq.msxnet.org/
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
How could you avoid programs to access memory areas that don't belong to them if your MMU is implemented in software? How could you stop user programs to overwrite the MMU code and make it work as the user want? I thought the kernel used to control the communication between software and hardware. And also between software and software, WHEN THE HARDWARE ALLOWS IT. It could be implemented with semaphores. Of course, not with a Z80! The only solution is the "Z80-interpreter" written in Z80 ASM proposed by Alex Wulms. Not according to the documentation. By now only LILO still uses non-"C" code according to the docs. I think the CPU cache management routines are written in ASM... Applications have access to what the kernel give access to, thus, you get the picture. Again, only WHEN THE CPU HAS THE NECESSARY FEATURES FOR IMPLEMENTING THIS. Remember: we're talking about Z80. Adriano Camargo Rodrigues da Cunha ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Engenharia de Computacao - UNICAMP http://www.adrpage.cjb.net http://if.you.dont.like.msx.usuck.com * MMU error. Enter any 11-digit prime number to continue. * Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] See also http://www.faq.msxnet.org/
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
--- Alex Wulms [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Simple: by making a software CPU and a software MMU. In this way, your software CPU interpretes the programs in stead of the Z80. Ofcourse it will kill performance but it does work... Exactly my thoughts... My only concern is that it works, not performance. = __ Ðiogo Sperb Schneider - [EMAIL PROTECTED] See me @ http://www.geocities.com/enthusiast78 "When I say Van Halen I mean David Lee Roth!!" __ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] See also http://www.faq.msxnet.org/
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 03:49:00 -0700 (PDT), "ðiogo" Sperb Schneider wrote: Nonsense. With a poorly designed kernel you will have a bad performance of any application, even the better programmed applications. Performance shouldn't be a worry at development stage. There are programmers and programmers. - AbraçOS/2, Daniel Caetano ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) /| | | |\ \| ___ |/ OS/2 Sites: http://www.quasarbbs.com/daniel/ \/ - \/ http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/8752/os2hp/os2index.html | | MSX Sites: http://www.fudeba.cjb.net/ -- -- Drawings:http://www.djgallery.tsx.org/ ...Programar e' a arte de organizar zeros e uns de forma que eles produzam trabalho util! Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] See also http://www.faq.msxnet.org/
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
On Wed, 19 Jul 2000 04:17:51 -0700 (PDT), "ðiogo" Sperb Schneider wrote: Ofcourse it will kill performance but it does work... Exactly my thoughts... My only concern is that it works, not performance. Well, once you build an emulator, EVERYTHING is possible, since there is enough RAM space. But I do not think its a good thing keep this "possibility" in mind, since we have Uzix working very well. Remember that is faster, easier and better implement new functions on Uzix if there are new possibilities on a new hardware than build a slow emulator capable of running Linux... or even recompile Linux. Note that even PC emulation is possible at "your point of view", but it will be so slow, so slow that forces me to say you: "It's impossible!". The impossibility is not only related to the possibility of something be created, but also to the possibility of something being used. And if the use is not possible, so we had lost precious time that could be used to do something else. - AbraçOS/2, Daniel Caetano ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) /| | | |\ \| ___ |/ OS/2 Sites: http://www.quasarbbs.com/daniel/ \/ - \/ http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/8752/os2hp/os2index.html | | MSX Sites: http://www.fudeba.cjb.net/ -- -- Drawings:http://www.djgallery.tsx.org/ ...Programar e' a arte de organizar zeros e uns de forma que eles produzam trabalho util! Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] See also http://www.faq.msxnet.org/
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
At 06:53 AM 7/13/00 -0700, you wrote: I'd be running fast back to MSX if there was a UNIX like OS available. I've got very excited a while ago when I've read somewhere that some guys where trying to develop a Linux version for MSX. MSX is the best computer ever created, man... It must be continued! http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~adrcunha/uzix/ Ricardo Jurczyk Pinheiro - ICQ UIN:3635907 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]|_Sola Scriptura | http://i.am/rjp -M.Sc. Numerical Modelling (hope so!) |_ Sola Gratia | UFF - Niteroi - RJ - Brazil - [EMAIL PROTECTED]_| Sola Fide | MSX, ST, B5, X-F, Anime, Christian, Maths, CuD, Linux!_| Solo Cristi | Christian, Rock, Comics, Transformers, and hate M$! | Soli Deo Gloria | Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] See also http://www.faq.msxnet.org/
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
Even the Portuguese to Portuguese dictionary? (((-: I didn't know about such website! What's the URL? Maybe that Aurelio´s dictionary... =) Ricardo Jurczyk Pinheiro - ICQ UIN:3635907 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]|_Sola Scriptura | http://i.am/rjp -M.Sc. Numerical Modelling (hope so!) |_ Sola Gratia | UFF - Niteroi - RJ - Brazil - [EMAIL PROTECTED]_| Sola Fide | MSX, ST, B5, X-F, Anime, Christian, Maths, CuD, Linux!_| Solo Cristi | Christian, Rock, Comics, Transformers, and hate M$! | Soli Deo Gloria | Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] See also http://www.faq.msxnet.org/
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
At 07:21 PM 7/13/00 +0200, you wrote: On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Ðiogo Sperb Schneider wrote: Why are you so sure? For Linux to run, all we need is a suitable kernel. Linux kernels were originally intended for i386 machines only, but it has been ported to PowerPC, i286, Amiga and a few others... Why shouldn't it be ported to the Z80? Because you would have to rewrite the kernel almost completely. Memory management, scheduling, etc. It would be a completely different kernel, so it wouldn't be Linux. Oh, and there ISN'T a port of Linux for the 286. To the people interested, look after ELKS (Embeddable Linux Kernel System), their goal is to have Linux ported to computers which don´t have MMU, like 286s, XTs... So the MSX. We can dream about it... Or help Adriano with the Uzix kernel, which WORKS. Ricardo Jurczyk Pinheiro - ICQ UIN:3635907 - [EMAIL PROTECTED]|_Sola Scriptura | http://i.am/rjp -M.Sc. Numerical Modelling (hope so!) |_ Sola Gratia | UFF - Niteroi - RJ - Brazil - [EMAIL PROTECTED]_| Sola Fide | MSX, ST, B5, X-F, Anime, Christian, Maths, CuD, Linux!_| Solo Cristi | Christian, Rock, Comics, Transformers, and hate M$! | Soli Deo Gloria | Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] See also http://www.faq.msxnet.org/
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
To the people interested, look after ELKS (Embeddable Linux Kernel System), their goal is to have Linux ported to computers which don´t have MMU, like 286s, XTs... So the MSX. ELKS is still far away from 8 bits CPUs... Do not count with it... Adriano Camargo Rodrigues da Cunha ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Engenharia de Computacao - UNICAMP http://www.adrpage.cjb.net http://if.you.dont.like.msx.usuck.com * 1 Gig is 1,073,741,824 bytes - NOT 1,000,000,000! * Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] See also http://www.faq.msxnet.org/
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
At 10:04 AM 19/07/2000, you wrote: My opinion is: A new msx must be developped. It must be a real home/hobby computer so there will be a marked for in the demo/hobby scene.. (...) That's my opinion, please correct me if you think I'm wrong. Goddamit, let´s make a deal: Don´t spend time/mails/talkings/bandwidth arguing why does a new MSX should be produced or not. As I could notice, ASCII would create this new computer or not, apart from us. They won´t notice that in the international MSX mailing list, we are saying that they should create a new MSX, or there are some people that prefer having emulators rather than the real machine (what awful). It´s only spoiled bandwidth, ¨live and let die¨... The best thing that we can do is to sit down and wait to see if there will be any news from the Land of the Rising Sun. Well, it´s what I think. ByE! Ok... I am just wondering... Why the hell NO ONE went to the board I made and posted their opinions/whish lists/whatever they think about this project there? This is the way I could come up to, so ANYONE could have access to whatever MSX users expect from this new machine... Again: the URL for the board is http://www.newmsx.cjb.net If anyone can come up with a better ideia, I'm all ears... but as it is now, I am really thinking about taking this site down... SLotman MSX Files ( http://www.msxfiles.cjb.net ) The New MSX (http://www.newmsx.cjb.net) Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] See also http://www.faq.msxnet.org/
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
Laurens Holst wrote: Linux is 32-bit, MSX is 8-bit (actually 16-bit, imho). Ahem, Linux on dec alpha is one of the best 64 bit unix systems out there. Linux uses a very extended memory area, MSX has 64k If you are talking (IBM-)PC linguo, shouldn't you say : "The flat memory model of the protected mode." extended memory is the old 286 way of mapping more then one mega of memory I meant this: "Linux gebruikt een zeer uitgebreide geheugenruimte". Hence I was not referring to 'extended memory', but simply to a large address range. ~Grauw -- email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit my homepage at http://grauw.blehq.org/ Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] See also http://www.faq.msxnet.org/
Re: [even more OT] RE: [OFF] Linux (was: Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?)
Bleh, I've stopped running linux, since those fixed drove me mad... kernel 2.4.3.1.4.1.5.9.2.etc... with of course, matching clibs, which caused your apps to go bezerk if the clib changed... argh! Nah, start using BeOS! :) Oh my god!!! Nah, I tried the Personal edition (500 meg diskimage with BeOS), but it was way too limiting. I even couldn't use the only usable application: internet, because it doesn't recognize my ISDN card. And CD-burning didn't work out as well. Flurp. ~Grauw -- email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit my homepage at http://grauw.blehq.org/ Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] See also http://www.faq.msxnet.org/
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
Grauw wrote: Linux uses a very extended memory area, MSX has 64k If you are talking (IBM-)PC linguo, shouldn't you say : "The flat memory model of the protected mode." extended memory is the old 286 way of mapping more then one mega of memory I meant this: "Linux gebruikt een zeer uitgebreide geheugenruimte". translation mode "Linux makes very extensive use of memory" /translation HTH Eric Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] See also http://www.faq.msxnet.org/
[OFF] Linux (was: Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?)
Diego Sperb Schneider wrote: Linux is not just a kernel. Hm, IIRC, it's quite the opposite. Linux is *just* the kernel. All applications, which make the complete system are mostly GNU... Ag0ny wrote: I work as the technical director of a big ISP, so I guess I know what I'm talking about. not necessarily :-P So please go back to your Windows "ag0ny" session and leave this subject for people who know about it. :) ag0ny:~$ uname -a Linux ag0ny 2.2.13 #10 Sat Jul 1 21:08:33 CEST 2000 i686 unknown ag0ny~$ *grin* Time for an update, BTW. 2.2.13 is quite old already ;-) But then again, I shouldn't be the one telling this: I still have to install Linux properly on my own box @ home - it's one of the K-zillion things on my to-do list... :-J Eric MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
[even more OT] RE: [OFF] Linux (was: Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?)
: -Original Message- : From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] : Sent: 17 July 2000 09:35 : To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Subject: [OFF] Linux (was: Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?) : : : *grin* Time for an update, BTW. 2.2.13 is quite old already ;-) : But then again, I shouldn't be the one telling this: I still have : to install Linux properly on my own box @ home - it's one of the : K-zillion things on my to-do list... :-J : Bleh, I've stopped running linux, since those fixed drove me mad... kernel 2.4.3.1.4.1.5.9.2.etc... with of course, matching clibs, which caused your apps to go bezerk if the clib changed... argh! Nah, start using BeOS! :) M MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: [OFF] Linux (was: Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?)
On Mon, 17 Jul 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I work as the technical director of a big ISP, so I guess I know what I'm talking about. not necessarily :-P In this case, I am. :) ag0ny:~$ uname -a Linux ag0ny 2.2.13 #10 Sat Jul 1 21:08:33 CEST 2000 i686 unknown ag0ny~$ *grin* Time for an update, BTW. 2.2.13 is quite old already ;-) Well, I don't need any of the new features of newer kernels, so I won't waste my time downloading and installing a new one. I even have a good old 2.0.37 kernel working as a masquerading gateway/firewall, and it does its job quite well. Why update, if things are running fine? :) Regards, -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aamsx.org MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
On Thu, 13 Jul 2000 18:20:15 GMT, Takamichi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I had reverse-translated that what-so-called "new MSX" article and then realized this is typical Japanese refusal sentence, the sort which, when translated to English, gives positive impression against intent of the author. What a pity. Irony often is lost in the translation, especially when many people so much want to believe that is is true... Even if in their hearts, they know better. What do YOU think, should a new MSX be developed? Deliberately yes, but who will pay a billion yen to build new MSX? Re-releasing the turboR could be a possible first step. After all, development costs for it have already been made. I know a lot of people here in the Netherlands who are sorry they didn't buy a turboR when they were still for sale (I'm one of them). Of course making the release of a new or a not-so-new MSX a success will be a big marketing effort. One thing that caught our attention and raised hopes though, was the fact that ASCII is still sponsoring Denyu-land and even Kay Nishi himself will speak on that fair. I wish I could visit it, but then, I probably wouldn't understand a word :-) Pierre MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
] On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Ðiogo Sperb Schneider wrote: ] ] [about MMU] ] Ok, but I still don't see how it could not be ] implemented in software. ] ] How could you avoid programs to access memory areas that don't belong to ] them if your MMU is implemented in software? How could you stop user ] programs to overwrite the MMU code and make it work as the user want? Simple: by making a software CPU and a software MMU. In this way, your software CPU interpretes the programs in stead of the Z80. Ofcourse it will kill performance but it does work... Kind regards, Alex Wulms -- Visit The MSX Plaza (http://www.inter.nl.net/users/A.P.Wulms) for info on XelaSoft, Merlasoft, Quadrivium, XSA Disk images, the MSX Hardware list, SD-Snatcher on fMSX, documentation and lots more. MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
] But wait a minute... You said 8086? I believe the Z80 ] is also called 8080, right? Does these processors have ] any relation between them? Yes. The 8080 was developed by Intel corporation. After developing the 8080, the boss of Intel had some ideas about how to develop the successor. One of the main architects working for Intel had a completely different idea about how to develop the successor. The main architect could simply not agree with the boss, so he resigned and founded his own company: Zilog. Intel developed the successor of the 8080 using their ideas, it was called the 8086, which was a full 16-bit processor. This processor was chosen by IBM for their low-end business computer which eventually became the PC as we all know it. Please note that Intel also developed a trimmed-down version of the 8086: the 8088. This processor has the same instruction set as the 8086, but it has a multiplexed 8-bit databus in stead of a full 16-bit databus. Zilog developed the successor of the 8080 using their ideas. This successor was called Z80 and is still being used today. Mainly as cheap embedded processor for simple devices. And ofcourse in our beloved MSX system. Kind regards, Alex Wulms -- Visit The MSX Plaza (http://www.inter.nl.net/users/A.P.Wulms) for info on XelaSoft, Merlasoft, Quadrivium, XSA Disk images, the MSX Hardware list, SD-Snatcher on fMSX, documentation and lots more. MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
Why are you so sure? For Linux to run, all we need is a suitable kernel. Hahahahahahahahahahaha!!! Easy to speak! Damn hard to do! :) Linux kernels were originally intended for i386 machines only Hey! We're talking about Z80 here, too far away from i386! i386 has protected memory, support to virtual memory, MMU and a lot of other things that Z80 had never dreamed of. but it has been ported to PowerPC, i286, Amiga PowerPC, i286 and 68000. Processors still light-years beyond our cool and pretty Z80. Why shouldn't it be ported to the Z80? The work would be so hard that is better to write a new kernel from scratch, using the good ideas of Linux kernel. Adriano Camargo Rodrigues da Cunha ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Engenharia de Computacao - UNICAMP http://www.adrpage.cjb.net http://if.you.dont.like.msx.usuck.com * Who had never Windows crashed, throw the first GPF! * MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
[OFF] Linux (was: Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?)
On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Ðiogo Sperb Schneider wrote: (Please excuse me for the offtopic) management, scheduling, etc. It would be a completely different kernel, so it wouldn't be Linux. Linux is not just a kernel. To be sincere, the kernel is the least important part of the OS. It just makes Oh, so now the kernel is the least important part of the OS? Cool. Then let's stop development of the kernel and focus on what's really important! If you don't know what you're talking about, please don't say anything. the communication between software and hardware. What makes Linux so special are the GNU tools made for it So, I can get my FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT kernel, install a bunch of GNU tools in my laptop, and I'll have a Linux machine, right? Please, stop talking bullshit. (actually for their own flavor of free UNIX clone). GNU/Hurd, which is in a VERY early state of development. And no, even with all these GNU tools, it will NOT be Linux. For the rest of readers of the list: please excuse me for the tone of the message. I just can't stand UNIX newbies pretending to be haxx0rs just because they've heard about Linux. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aamsx.org MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Ðiogo Sperb Schneider wrote: Because Linux kernel "way of life" requires a MMU, something not available at "normal" MSXs. Ok... But it could be implemented in software, couldn't? Also, the MSXes are in evolution process... Couldn't. A MMU ensures that programs can't access memory locations that aren't theirs. It must be implemented in hardware. It would be funny to have userland programs overwrite the MMU and get write access to kernel areas. And I think it should not be implemented in the new MSX. It would make programming MUCH harder, and would be further from the MSX feeling. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aamsx.org MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
--- Maarten ter Huurne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, "Ðiogo" Sperb Schneider wrote: Making an MSX port of Linux would only make sense if Linux programs would compile on Linux-MSX without thorough modification. I doubt that is possible. The 64K address space of the Z80 is a real pain. Ofcourse it is possible in theory, but it would be like a virtual machine running on the Z80 to emulate the features the Z80 lacks in hardware. Speed would be horrible. That's true. I believe we should think on Linux for MSX only if for the new MSXes that could possibly exist in the future. Talking about machinery evolution... I still can't believe the IBM-PC doesn't count with a Z80 as a co-processor. Emulating the MSX on an IBM would be just natural. I think porting Unix programs to UZIX is a much easier approach. As part of the porting process, functionality that is not needed can be thrown out, so that a lightweight version emerges that can run on MSX at a practical speed and memory usage. Sounds good. Sounds very good. I think I'm gonna have to find myself a well equipped MSX as soon as possible. The "Linux for 8086" project (ELKS?) is not really a Linux, it's a subset of Linux. We could make a Linux subset for MSX, but why bother, UZIX is already there and it's making great progress. Very true! But wait a minute... You said 8086? I believe the Z80 is also called 8080, right? Does these processors have any relation between them? Later! = __ Ðiogo Sperb Schneider - [EMAIL PROTECTED] "When I say Van Halen I mean David Lee Roth!!" @ http://www.geocities.com/enthusiast78 __ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
But wait a minute... You said 8086? I believe the Z80 is also called 8080, right? Does these processors have any relation between them? The Zilog Z80 was designed based on Intel's 8080 processor, which was the processor CP/M was first created for. It is instruction-upwards-compatible, and only the mnemonics of the assembly language are very different, but that's not really a problem. The Z80 book by Rodnay Zaks features a 8080 - Z80 mnemonics conversion table. But it has little to do with the 8068. The only thing alike is the way they store their values in memory: MSB first. Also known as "the Intel way", and there was an official name I don't recall. But the opcodes (and also the instructions) are very different. And don't forget, a 80386 is, although compatible, nothing like a 8086 anymore. ~Grauw -- email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit my homepage at http://grauw.blehq.org/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: [OFF] Linux (was: Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?)
--- ag0ny [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Ðiogo Sperb Schneider wrote: (Please excuse me for the offtopic) Oh, so now the kernel is the least important part of the OS? Cool. Then let's stop development of the kernel and focus on what's really important! If you don't know what you're talking about, please don't say anything. I was going to suggest the same for you! :) So, I can get my FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT kernel, install a bunch of GNU tools in my laptop, and I'll have a Linux machine, right? No, you'll have an hybrid system, smart ass. :) Please, stop talking bullshit. Woohoo! Sounds constructive! :) (actually for their own flavor of free UNIX clone). GNU/Hurd, which is in a VERY early state of development. And no, even with all these GNU tools, it will NOT be Linux. That's obvious! I'm surprised that you could find about that, though! :) For the rest of readers of the list: please excuse me for the tone of the message. I just can't stand UNIX newbies pretending to be haxx0rs just because they've heard about Linux. So please go back to your Windows "ag0ny" session and leave this subject for people who know about it. :) Cheers, = __ Ðiogo Sperb Schneider - [EMAIL PROTECTED] "When I say Van Halen I mean David Lee Roth!!" @ http://www.geocities.com/enthusiast78 __ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
--- ag0ny [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Ðiogo Sperb Schneider wrote: Couldn't. A MMU ensures that programs can't access memory locations that aren't theirs. It must be implemented in hardware. It would be funny to have userland programs overwrite the MMU and get write access to kernel areas. Ok, but I still don't see how it could not be implemented in software. And I think it should not be implemented in the new MSX. It would make programming MUCH harder, Why? I thought programming in C was a well known art. and would be further from the MSX feeling. The Microsoft unsecure feeling, you mean? C'mon... The MSX was meant to be much superior than that. = __ Ðiogo Sperb Schneider - [EMAIL PROTECTED] "When I say Van Halen I mean David Lee Roth!!" @ http://www.geocities.com/enthusiast78 __ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Ðiogo Sperb Schneider wrote: [about MMU] Ok, but I still don't see how it could not be implemented in software. How could you avoid programs to access memory areas that don't belong to them if your MMU is implemented in software? How could you stop user programs to overwrite the MMU code and make it work as the user want? And I think it should not be implemented in the new MSX. It would make programming MUCH harder, Why? I thought programming in C was a well known art. Low-level kernel routines, such as the MMU and low-level scheduler code is written in assembler, even in your beloved Linux. But that's not the problem, because most members of this list have mastered ASM programming in the MSX. The problem is that you can't do it in software. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aamsx.org MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: [OFF] Linux (was: Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?)
On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Ðiogo Sperb Schneider wrote: important! If you don't know what you're talking about, please don't say anything. I was going to suggest the same for you! :) I work as the technical director of a big ISP, so I guess I know what I'm talking about. So please go back to your Windows "ag0ny" session and leave this subject for people who know about it. :) ag0ny:~$ uname -a Linux ag0ny 2.2.13 #10 Sat Jul 1 21:08:33 CEST 2000 i686 unknown ag0ny~$ This doesn't look like a Windows "ag0ny" session. Oh, and this is my desktop PC. Maybe you'd like to look at some screenshots of my laptop, where I'm running FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT: http://www.aamsx.org/vernoticia.php?lang=esid=2 (sorry, not translated to English because these screenshots were made in may, when I still haven't had added multilanguaje support to the site) Oh, and I even had to ask Laurens for a screenshot of his Internet Explorer because I don't have a Windows machine near, neither here or at work. I'm not going to continue this discussion in the list. If you want anything else, mail me directly. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aamsx.org MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
On Thu, 13 Jul 2000 14:51:09 -0700 (PDT), "ðiogo" Sperb Schneider wrote: Linux is not just a kernel. To be sincere, the kernel is the least important part of the OS. It just makes the communication between software and hardware. What makes Linux so special are the GNU tools made for it (actually for their own flavor of free UNIX clone). Hey... "The Kernel is the least important part of the OS"... so, what is the most important? The fact that it's still in development level doesn't make it inexistent. UZIX is in development level, though it exists. :) UZIX is not Linux based. UZIX is UNIX based. There is a big difference. - AbraçOS/2, Daniel Caetano ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) /| | | |\ \| ___ |/ OS/2 Sites: http://www.quasarbbs.com/daniel/ \/ - \/ http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/8752/os2hp/os2index.html | | MSX Sites: http://www.fudeba.cjb.net/ -- -- Drawings:http://www.djgallery.tsx.org/ ...Programar e' a arte de organizar zeros e uns de forma que eles produzam trabalho util! MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: [OFF] Linux (was: Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?)
--- ag0ny [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Ðiogo Sperb Schneider wrote: I work as the technical director of a big ISP, so I guess I know what I'm talking about. Oh, don't tell me about that! I've been working with several technical directors of big ISPs before, and I don't make a good image of them. I hope you're an exception! Hmmm, but exceptions are not good, standards are. :) ag0ny:~$ uname -a Linux ag0ny 2.2.13 #10 Sat Jul 1 21:08:33 CEST 2000 i686 unknown ag0ny~$ Cool! We run the same kernel version! This doesn't look like a Windows "ag0ny" session. Oh, and this is my desktop PC. Maybe you'd like to look at some screenshots of my laptop, where I'm running FreeBSD 4.0-CURRENT: http://www.aamsx.org/vernoticia.php?lang=esid=2 (sorry, not translated to English because these screenshots were made in may, when I still haven't had added multilanguaje support to the site) No problem! Nice website, by the way! Oh, and I even had to ask Laurens for a screenshot of his Internet Explorer because I don't have a Windows machine near, neither here or at work. Congratulations!! I'm not going to continue this discussion in the list. If you want anything else, mail me directly. Sure. Unfortunatelly I haven't got anything else to say by now. = __ Ðiogo Sperb Schneider - [EMAIL PROTECTED] "When I say Van Halen I mean David Lee Roth!!" @ http://www.geocities.com/enthusiast78 __ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
--- ag0ny [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Ðiogo Sperb Schneider wrote: How could you avoid programs to access memory areas that don't belong to them if your MMU is implemented in software? How could you stop user programs to overwrite the MMU code and make it work as the user want? I thought the kernel used to control the communication between software and hardware. It could be implemented with semaphores. Low-level kernel routines, such as the MMU and low-level scheduler code is written in assembler, even in your beloved Linux. Not according to the documentation. By now only LILO still uses non-"C" code according to the docs. But that's not the problem, because most members of this list have mastered ASM programming in the MSX. The problem is that you can't do it in software. Applications have access to what the kernel give access to, thus, you get the picture. = __ Ðiogo Sperb Schneider - [EMAIL PROTECTED] "When I say Van Halen I mean David Lee Roth!!" @ http://www.geocities.com/enthusiast78 __ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
--- Daniel Jorge Caetano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey... "The Kernel is the least important part of the OS"... so, what is the most important? The basic software that is made for it, like shells and tools. That's what actually give an OS it's identity. All the kernel does is make sure that these pieces of software work. :) UZIX is not Linux based. UZIX is UNIX based. There is a big difference. I don't see how it relates, I mentioned UZIX just as an example... Keep focused. = __ Ðiogo Sperb Schneider - [EMAIL PROTECTED] "When I say Van Halen I mean David Lee Roth!!" @ http://www.geocities.com/enthusiast78 __ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:08:41 -0700 (PDT), "ðiogo" Sperb Schneider wrote: I thought the kernel used to control the communication between software and hardware. It could be implemented with semaphores. Well, if you think on "write on memory" as a task that the program needs to ask the Kernel to do, yes, it's possible, but I think it will have the slowest system of all time... (-: Besides, it'll be almost impossible to program ... (-: Several reasons. Not according to the documentation. By now only LILO still uses non-"C" code according to the docs. If the docs say that, the docs are wrong. Lots of the Kernel code is ASM code... simply there is no other way to do a lot of things. Applications have access to what the kernel give access to, thus, you get the picture. You are missing the fact MEMORY doesn't work like a normal peripheral. Once a program runs, it can replace the interrupt routine and "oh, goodbye my multitask"... or even worse, the program can overwrite some piece of the kernel and "damn it!", the system hangs. Did you ever programmed using ASM "language"? - AbraçOS/2, Daniel Caetano ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) /| | | |\ \| ___ |/ OS/2 Sites: http://www.quasarbbs.com/daniel/ \/ - \/ http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/8752/os2hp/os2index.html | | MSX Sites: http://www.fudeba.cjb.net/ -- -- Drawings:http://www.djgallery.tsx.org/ ...Programar e' a arte de organizar zeros e uns de forma que eles produzam trabalho util! MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
On Fri, 14 Jul 2000 18:19:07 -0700 (PDT), "ðiogo" Sperb Schneider wrote: Hey... "The Kernel is the least important part of the OS"... so, what is the most important? The basic software that is made for it, like shells and tools. That's what actually give an OS it's identity. All the kernel does is make sure that these pieces of software work. :) Nonsense. With a poorly designed kernel you will have a bad performance of any application, even the better programmed applications. I don't see how it relates, I mentioned UZIX just as an example... Keep focused. You were talking about Uzix as a Linux port. It's not. Linux is linux. Uzix is Uzix... - AbraçOS/2, Daniel Caetano ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) /| | | |\ \| ___ |/ OS/2 Sites: http://www.quasarbbs.com/daniel/ \/ - \/ http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/8752/os2hp/os2index.html | | MSX Sites: http://www.fudeba.cjb.net/ -- -- Drawings:http://www.djgallery.tsx.org/ ...Programar e' a arte de organizar zeros e uns de forma que eles produzam trabalho util! MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
On Fri, 14 Jul 2000, Ðiogo Sperb Schneider wrote: How could you avoid programs to access memory areas that don't belong to them if your MMU is implemented in software? How could you stop user programs to overwrite the MMU code and make it work as the user want? I thought the kernel used to control the communication between software and hardware. It could be implemented with semaphores. No, you can't. That's nosense. Please read "Operating systems: design and implementation" by Andrew Tanenbaum to understand what we're talking about. Low-level kernel routines, such as the MMU and low-level scheduler code is written in assembler, even in your beloved Linux. Not according to the documentation. By now only LILO still uses non-"C" code according to the docs. Take a look at the files in /usr/src/linux/arch/i386 and see for yourself. Applications have access to what the kernel give access to, thus, you get the picture. That's right in a system where the processor has some type of protection levels. That's not the case of the Z80 family. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aamsx.org MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
What do YOU think, should a new MSX be developed? Will it have a chance in the market that's dominated by PC's and 64 bit game consoles? Or will it create it's own market? -- Well, as everyone of you know, the Msx-scene is the cwlest scene you can imagine..;) It's the only scene where 'normal' people still can create demo's/games/ magazines etc. with getting respect for it.. If you want to make demo's/games for pc or something, you have to be very good and you've got to use profesional hardware to get some respect, and even to get noticed.. So I think a lot of people are looking for a new hobby/home computer especially made for the demoscene. A demo scene like we've got... the current msx scene, with our clubday's, fairs etc. A scene where people are interested in what you are doing. Now you think, well, why is the current msx-scene so small then?? I think most of the msx'ers have had enough of the current msxes.. They think It was fun to work with, but it's to slow for this time.. (I know ex-msx'ers who will return to msx, if it just was a little bit faster/better) My opinion is: A new msx must be developped. It must be a real home/hobby computer so there will be a marked for in the demo/hobby scene.. Then there will be 3 sorts of computers: -Pc's - for professional use (companies, textediting, spreadsheats etc.) -Gameconsoles - for gamefanatics, children etc. -Msx (homecomputers) - to use for fun, hobby.. and to create your own products.. And I think Ascii will use Msx, since they already have the copyrights (most of them) and there already is a msx-demoscene That's my opinion, please correct me if you think I'm wrong. Grz, Chaos^TwZ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
I'd be running fast back to MSX if there was a UNIX like OS available. I've got very excited a while ago when I've read somewhere that some guys where trying to develop a Linux version for MSX. MSX is the best computer ever created, man... It must be continued! = __ Ðiogo Sperb Schneider - [EMAIL PROTECTED] "When I say Van Halen I mean David Lee Roth!!" @ http://www.geocities.com/enthusiast78 __ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
"Ðiogo Sperb Schneider" wrote: I'd be running fast back to MSX if there was a UNIX like OS available. I've got very excited a while ago when I've read somewhere that some guys where trying to develop a Linux version for MSX. Well, you SHOULD take a look at my Jahu photo gallery to get a glimpse of a small fraction of what Brazilian fudebas are doing nowadays: http://jahu99.parn.cjb.net There isn't and there will never be Linux for MSX, but UNIX for MSX *does* exist, and it's called UZIX: http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~adrcunha/uzix/ All these links are in English, so you have no excuse not to read them. And there's not much text, you can read it in a couple minutes. MSX is the best computer ever created, man... It must be continued! Agreed. -Parn (ICQ#1693182) /| | | |\ \| ___ |/ http://parn.cjb.net/ \/ - \/ Parn's Music Station | | Game Music XMs and more! -- --Izati Aba Mehinam Eto Kafe Nan MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
If you want to make demo's/games for pc or something, you have to be very good and you've got to use profesional hardware to get some respect, and even to get noticed.. This would mean that the pc-demoscene is some cold graveyard ?? not at all..! It's true that most pc-sceners started on c64/amiga/atari but @ my group for ex. the 3 main dutch coders started on msx(2)(2+).. and Nix (who worked at Eidos, and now converts pc games to dreamcast) is ex-The New Image ! .. The main difference between msx/c64 and pc nowadays is that on pc's all gfx-fx are official methods. It's just "who has the fastest engine".. the MSX/C64 on the other hand is pretty slow (too slow for the official way how to produce an effect) but has some nice hidden hardware tweaks.. and that's the fun part.. believe me.. since parties allow hardware-accelerated cards (tnt2, geforce etc.) most demos look smooth and boring! colleges here start to make demos for the color-gameboy.. just to find out that tricks again.. so, a new msx can go 2 ways. 1 a fast beast so that anyone can do fx the official way 2 a trick-box with limitations here and there but with alot of hidden stuff to discover.. let's choose one of them :) \/\/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
--- Pablo Vasques Bravo-Villalba [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, you SHOULD take a look at my Jahu photo gallery to get a glimpse of a small fraction of what Brazilian fudebas are doing nowadays: http://jahu99.parn.cjb.net Cool! There isn't and there will never be Linux for MSX, but UNIX for MSX *does* exist, and it's called UZIX: http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~adrcunha/uzix/ Why are you so sure? For Linux to run, all we need is a suitable kernel. Linux kernels were originally intended for i386 machines only, but it has been ported to PowerPC, i286, Amiga and a few others... Why shouldn't it be ported to the Z80? All these links are in English, so you have no excuse not to read them. And there's not much text, you can read it in a couple minutes. Sure! Any website should be in english as the Internet is available to the whole world and their webmasters are supposed to want that as much people as possible read their content. = __ Ðiogo Sperb Schneider - [EMAIL PROTECTED] "When I say Van Halen I mean David Lee Roth!!" @ http://www.geocities.com/enthusiast78 __ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, Ðiogo Sperb Schneider wrote: Why are you so sure? For Linux to run, all we need is a suitable kernel. Linux kernels were originally intended for i386 machines only, but it has been ported to PowerPC, i286, Amiga and a few others... Why shouldn't it be ported to the Z80? Because you would have to rewrite the kernel almost completely. Memory management, scheduling, etc. It would be a completely different kernel, so it wouldn't be Linux. Oh, and there ISN'T a port of Linux for the 286. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aamsx.org MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
"Ðiogo Sperb Schneider" wrote: http://jahu99.parn.cjb.net Cool! Thanks! :) There is some nice pictures in MSX Core Club page, too, but the subtitles are in Portuguese. If you don't mind it, take a look: http://msxjau99.cjb.net/ Even if you don't speak Portuguese, there are some things you can figure out... http://www.dcc.unicamp.br/~adrcunha/uzix/ Why are you so sure? For Linux to run, all we need is a suitable kernel. Linux kernels were originally intended for i386 machines only, but it has been ported to PowerPC, i286, Amiga and a few others... Why shouldn't it be ported to the Z80? It's not that easy, but I'll let somebody else talk about this, because I'm afraid I'm not able to give the full, complete and exact explanation about this. But if I'm not mistaken the biggest drawback is the maximum size of the kernel, which should theoretically be no larger than 48Kb (today it has 32Kb and it's already maxed out by current specs). Sure! Any website should be in english as the Internet is available to the whole world and their webmasters are supposed to want that as much people as possible read their content. I partially disagree, because, as you said, you have a target audience, but sometimes your target audience isn't really that good in English. This is why my Jahu page is both English/Portuguese (there's some people to whom I'd like to show it who don't know English at all), my anime page is in Portuguese (there's already plenty of English anime pages in the web) and my music site is in English (but I intend to translate it to Portuguese, Spanish and Japanese someday). []s, -Parn (ICQ#1693182) /| | | |\ \| ___ |/ http://parn.cjb.net/ \/ - \/ Parn's Music Station | | Game Music XMs and more! -- --Izati Aba Mehinam Eto Kafe Nan MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
On Thu, 13 Jul 2000 09:42:43 -0700 (PDT), "ðiogo" Sperb Schneider wrote: Why are you so sure? For Linux to run, all we need is a suitable kernel. Linux kernels were originally intended for i386 machines only, but it has been ported to PowerPC, i286, Amiga and a few others... Why shouldn't it be ported to the Z80? Because Linux kernel "way of life" requires a MMU, something not available at "normal" MSXs. Sure! Any website should be in english as the Internet is available to the whole world and their webmasters are supposed to want that as much people as possible read their content. Even the Portuguese to Portuguese dictionary? (((-: - AbraçOS/2, Daniel Caetano ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) /| | | |\ \| ___ |/ OS/2 Sites: http://www.quasarbbs.com/daniel/ \/ - \/ http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/8752/os2hp/os2index.html | | MSX Sites: http://www.fudeba.cjb.net/ -- -- Drawings:http://www.djgallery.tsx.org/ ...Programar e' a arte de organizar zeros e uns de forma que eles produzam trabalho util! MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
Because you would have to rewrite the kernel almost completely. Memory management, scheduling, etc. It would be a completely different kernel, so it wouldn't be Linux. Linux is not just a kernel. To be sincere, the kernel is the least important part of the OS. It just makes the communication between software and hardware. What makes Linux so special are the GNU tools made for it (actually for their own flavor of free UNIX clone). Oh, and there ISN'T a port of Linux for the 286. The fact that it's still in development level doesn't make it inexistent. UZIX is in development level, though it exists. :) Linux is ALWAYS in development level and it exists! Windows is aslways, though slowly, in development level and it unfortunatelly exists. :) = __ Ðiogo Sperb Schneider - [EMAIL PROTECTED] "When I say Van Halen I mean David Lee Roth!!" @ http://www.geocities.com/enthusiast78 __ Do You Yahoo!? Get Yahoo! Mail Free email you can access from anywhere! http://mail.yahoo.com/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
On Thu, 13 Jul 2000, "Ðiogo" Sperb Schneider wrote: Because you would have to rewrite the kernel almost completely. Memory management, scheduling, etc. It would be a completely different kernel, so it wouldn't be Linux. Linux is not just a kernel. To be sincere, the kernel is the least important part of the OS. It just makes the communication between software and hardware. What makes Linux so special are the GNU tools made for it (actually for their own flavor of free UNIX clone). Making an MSX port of Linux would only make sense if Linux programs would compile on Linux-MSX without thorough modification. I doubt that is possible. The 64K address space of the Z80 is a real pain. Ofcourse it is possible in theory, but it would be like a virtual machine running on the Z80 to emulate the features the Z80 lacks in hardware. Speed would be horrible. I think porting Unix programs to UZIX is a much easier approach. As part of the porting process, functionality that is not needed can be thrown out, so that a lightweight version emerges that can run on MSX at a practical speed and memory usage. The "Linux for 8086" project (ELKS?) is not really a Linux, it's a subset of Linux. We could make a Linux subset for MSX, but why bother, UZIX is already there and it's making great progress. Bye, Maarten MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
RE: About the new MSX: what do users think?
Don't forget there is absolutely no software for MSX anymnore (and I am not talking about the occasional game that is still developed...) If you want a new MSX to be a commercial success, you need more than new hardware, you need software companies... will Inprise, Sun, Microsoft, etc be interested in developing for MSX? I think they'll break down laughing! and just making a new MSX for the small hardcore people, is, to put it nicely, not very smart, commerce wise.. Yippie, a new MSX - like the T-R was - where no software is developed for (actually how many TR titles are there? 10?) .. nah, let's just keep playing with the original - real MSX-es and emulators and stop being naive.. Marco : -Original Message- : From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] : Sent: 10 July 2000 08:00 : To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Subject: Re: About the new MSX: what do users think? : : snip MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
Hey, I think the gap is just too big to get the same feeling again, if this new MSX is released. You are in Japan now yourself, and you might have noticed (on the Tilburg fair already) that the Japanese have a total different point of view at the MSX computer. We still have fun with old, 'vintage' systems, the Japanese are still seriously working with it. (Or at least look cool pretending ;) Greetings, Sander MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
I think the gap is just too big to get the same feeling again, if this new MSX is released. You are in Japan now yourself, and you might have noticed (on the Tilburg fair already) that the Japanese have a total different point of view at the MSX computer. Here in Japan I do not notice ANYTHING concerning MSX, except Bernard Lamers and the MSX soft I found in Akihabara. In general, it seems that Japanese ONLY like NEW things, not obsolete MSX computers. Everyone I talk here with says 'WHY do you like such obsolete computers?'. In fact, just as in Europe...;-) We still have fun with old, 'vintage' systems, the Japanese are still seriously working with it. (Or at least look cool pretending ;) Forget it. Only a very small group of fanatics, just like in Europe. I don't know what those fanatics are doing though, since I only know them from a distance, like you. It seems there is no MSX fanatic here in the neighbourhood... ;-) Best regards, Manuel --- PS: MSX 4 EVER! (Questions? See: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/) PPS: Visit my home page at http://bilderbeek.cjb.net/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
RE: About the new MSX: what do users think?
I have plenty of japanese and korean friends, and asking if they know MSX, I've received a negative response... I think in jap/kor/eu/us it is the same... MSX is only known in a small group of enthousiasts no surprise there. M : -Original Message- : From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] : Sent: 10 July 2000 12:11 : To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Subject: Re: About the new MSX: what do users think? snip MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
(about the MSX mailing list): the discussions here are more relevant and more fun to 'real' MSX users. On news://comp.sys.msx there is mainly emulator- and offtopic-talk. True, but the mailing list is invisible for people who don't know it exists. So if we're discussing topics like the future of MSX-3, it may be better to do that out in the open, in the news group. It is indeed an interesting question WHY people so eagerly want to see a new MSX developed. I can't see any good reason, to be honest. I can. I know and love the system; I love that I can easily program it myself and I love the atmosphere of games written for the MSX. And even if it has it's limitations, which is part of the charm of MSX, there still is room for improvement, for a MSX-3. Why compare it to a PC or Playstation? Those are totally different machines. They add new possibilities, but they do not replace existing ones. Think about it: even if there are 128-bit state-of-the-art 3D computers, there are still numerous people enjoying Tic-Tac-Toe and card games. Pierre MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
RE: About the new MSX: what do users think?
On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Marco Frissen wrote: Don't forget there is absolutely no software for MSX anymnore (and I am not talking about the occasional game that is still developed...) Then obviously you are not part of the MSX scene. There IS new hardware. Development is slow, but take a look at NestorBasic, or patches for MSX-DOS(2) for FAT16 support, or UZIX, just to mention some. Please, if you don't know what you're talking about, don't talk. Yippie, a new MSX - like the T-R was - where no software is developed for (actually how many TR titles are there? 10?) .. nah, let's just keep playing with the original - real MSX-es and emulators and stop being naive.. If you don't want to support the new MSX project, that's ok. We can't force you to love the MSX. But please don't disturb the people who are working on it. Don't tell people to stop their developments. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aamsx.org MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Manuel Bilderbeek wrote: You can say "but now it continues!", but that is not the same. MSX was (commercially seen) stopped for 9 years. This is just too long to get the same feeling back. If ASCII or any other company releases a new MSX this year, it is still not the same. It will never be the same again, since it was stopped for 9 years. It would all have been different if in those 9 That's OK. If the MSX had been continued all this time, it would not be the same now, but we wouldn't have feel this transition. We have changed, the world has changed. And so would the MSX. But again: let us wait and see what happens. I wonder what will happen on Den-Yu Land. These are exciting times, people! I wonder that too. And I'm quite optimistic. Let's wait and see. What does it have to do with MSX then? Nothing. You then have a totally new computer which is by accident MSX compatible. Just like any good emulator in fact. You see? The feeling won't be there! I agree. There is one thing on what all MSX users I know agree: there is 'something' with the MSX that makes us love our computers. None of us know exactly what it is, but it's there. We call it 'the feeling'. And I bet it would be still there if a new MSX is released. Hmm, maybe this text sounds rather strange... If so, please delete and forget about it. Strange? Why should it sound strange? This text reflect what real MSX users feel. Regards, -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aamsx.org MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
If you don't want to support the new MSX project, that's ok. We can't force you to love the MSX. But please don't disturb the people who are working on it. Don't tell people to stop their developments. Hi Agony, Also other people are entitled to their opinion. And they are also allowed to spread their opinion in this mailinglist. You don't have to agree with it. That's the nice thing about it. Let's respect that. This way we can have a discussion about all the pro's and con's and we can learn from each others thought and ideas... Regards, Arnaud MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
RE: About the new MSX: what do users think?
And I am not _not_ supporting MSX.. I am just being realistic.. I would buy a new MSX, for the fun of it, but I don't see MSX becoming a success in the future, that's all I said.. and there's a lot of difference between commercial success and success for geeks.. I'm simply stating the facts... people who are developing s/w should go on of course, but I can imagine more and more developers dropping out, because it is just not worth the effort, developing for a small crowd.. it is a hobby after all, and sometimes you have to put priorities.. The TR has great hardware (for its time), but nearly no software for it. If a new MSX is made, it should be certain that there will be software for it, which uses all of its features... a new MSX is useless if you are only running the old software on it that was my point.. M : -Original Message- : From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] : Sent: 10 July 2000 13:02 : To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] : Subject: Re: About the new MSX: what do users think? : : Hi Agony, : : Also other people are entitled to their opinion. And they are : also allowed : to spread their opinion in this mailinglist. You don't have to agree with : it. That's the nice thing about it. Let's respect that. This way : we can have : a discussion about all the pro's and con's and we can learn from : each others : thought and ideas... : : Regards, : : Arnaud : MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
RE: About the new MSX: what do users think?
On Mon, 10 Jul 2000, Marco Frissen wrote: And I am not _not_ supporting MSX.. I am just being realistic.. I would buy a new MSX, for the fun of it, but I don't see MSX becoming a success in the future, that's all I said.. and there's a lot of difference between commercial success and success for geeks.. Well, a new MSX wouldn't have to try competing with the PC, as they're different markets. It won't need to beat Windows. It will be sucessful as long as a companies make money with it, even if they don't make so much money as with the PC. Or at least, that's what I think. If a new MSX is made, it should be certain that there will be software for it, which uses all of its features... a new MSX is useless if you are only running the old software on it that was my point.. I agree with you. If a new MSX is made, it should be released with at least a new version of MSX-DOS (3?). And of course, software companies would have to develop for it. We know for certain that Compile is interested. I bet Konami would be too. But hey, anything I could say know are just my thoughts, as I don't know what will happen. Let's wait. Regards, -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aamsx.org MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
RE: About the new MSX: what do users think?
And I am not _not_ supporting MSX.. I am just being realistic.. I would buy a new MSX, for the fun of it, but I don't see MSX becoming a success in the future, that's all I said.. and there's a lot of difference between commercial success and success for geeks.. Hahahaha, it seems to me that this is a quite useless discussion. Everyone has his/her own opinion and rather keeps this opinion. I think a nice analysis would be that MSX-users are keen on fantasizing about a new MSX being released but that the actual interest in developing such a system is rather small. Frequently seen are things like 'I'm just being realistic'. Which, ofcourse, is an opinion as well. Another could just as easy say 'no, you're pessimistic'. Well, let me put my (pessimistic (not as much as realistic, haha)) own opinion as well: the MSX-situation will probably only decline in the upcoming years. And there's nothing that will be able to stop this tendency. But keep fantasizing. It's at least as fun as playing a new RPG :) Am I mean or what? Hahaha. Rieks. Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
RE: About the new MSX: what do users think?
Am I mean or what? Hahaha. Rieks. Yes you are mean. But you are right too. So lets go back to the fun and talk about the technical ins in outs of MSX (i mean the old...) MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
Hi, some small (?) comment from my side. Please do not write reactions before completely reading the message... Here is my opinion on a new MSX computer. What is MSX then? Not easy to define, as it is very difficult to state what MSX really is. From what i see in this mailinglist it is close to religion, a believe in a myth, a way of life, etc etc. For me the MSX is the standard for hardware and software as defined by the founders and documented in the Technical documents by Ascii for MSX-1, 2 and 2+. That is it indeed. But it is also the special feeling of those days when it was so popular. The days that you were very excited when Konami released a new cartridge or when the new MSX magazine was on the doormat. THose days... Those standards, expanding on and incorporating the older standards are the basis of the success up till now and the lack of new standards was the cause of the decline. So MSX is frozen in time somewhere around 1990. Right. Since then (I think 1991) there were no real commercial developments anymore for MSX. No BIG things. So, in principle, there MSX (the standard) stopped. Some years after that (3 or 4 years) there was still a big activity though, since the MSX hardware (TurboR) was still quite reasonable. But this vanished with the years... You can say "but now it continues!", but that is not the same. MSX was (commercially seen) stopped for 9 years. This is just too long to get the same feeling back. If ASCII or any other company releases a new MSX this year, it is still not the same. It will never be the same again, since it was stopped for 9 years. It would all have been different if in those 9 years MSX would have been continued, because then you (and MSX) could have followed the developments according to the standards of those years. But now... I think the gap is just too big to get the same feeling again, if this new MSX is released. Indeed, they can release a computer that is compatible with MSX (So that it is in fact an MSX computer), but what is the use? You can play ancient games on it. Okay. But you can also do that on a real old MSX computer or even on an emulator (although that is not as good as on a real one of course, the feeling is not there...). For what then? They could release it as a new homecomputer, but why would they then bother to make it compatible with MSX? I would not know. So let us just face it: it will never be the same again as in those days! Be realistic. On the other hand, of course I would like this new MSX to be developed! I would even buy it. Just for the fun of it! I am VERY curious about these developments. Maybe a part of the feeling will come back, or maybe more people will recognize how great MSX is/was. Also, the projects of hobbyists are very interesting to me. The products will enable me to have even more fun with my MSX. However, a new MSX may also be able to give me more fun with MSX, but I guess such a new MSX would not be commercially interesting for any company to produce, just like those hobbyists projects (CIEL, Padial, Sunrise, etc.), since only the current MSX users would buy the products. (See below!) But again: let us wait and see what happens. I wonder what will happen on Den-Yu Land. These are exciting times, people! So if the MSX as brand will revive, the hardware and operating system, the style guides, the software all will have to be new and very powerful. Very deep down there the old MSX compatibility might be there (quite certainly in emulation), but for the new user it will be 3d video, great audio, high res, much cpu power and killer software that will count. What does it have to do with MSX then? Nothing. You then have a totally new computer which is by accident MSX compatible. Just like any good emulator in fact. You see? The feeling won't be there! What would be the use of making it MSX compatible? And what would be the use of making a MSX with so much new stuff that it is in fact a totally new computer? I really think it is not the same as when in all those years there would have been made gradual improvements in the official MSX standards. No, MSX will live as long as the old hardware is still working, and amateurs like us keep having fun with it. Exactly. Maybe: as long as people talk about it, write magazines, make software, use software, etc. Why do i bother with MSX then? For me it is a hobby, and a hobby is not necessarily profitable or meaningfull. It IS fun, i discuss with nice people, have a good subject for a webpage. And it brings back memories of those days when discovering MSX and seeing new developments was such great fun. Yes. But... it will never be the same as in those days. Anyway, this is the first and last e-mail I will write about this. I just needed to get rid of this text. MSX for ever! Hmm, maybe this text sounds rather strange... If so, please delete and forget about it. Best regards, Manuel --- PS: MSX 4 EVER! (Questions? See:
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
My teenage children, discovering the computer have access to PC's, Playstations, Nintendo's and my collection of MSX machines. Guess what computer they prefer for games: the PC and the Playstation. They have no emotional bonds with MSX and judge the outdated MSX graphics and sound as 'yesterdays toys'. Here (at home), MSX is still popular... My little brother uses it quite a lot and my sister even has it on her room (playing RPGs...). Ofcourse not always, the PC is used more often, but that also goes for myself. I can't email, work on homepages, create a layout, emulate (well, Gameboy, cool!) on my MSX. But then again, we haven't got a Playstation. We have got a PC though... Lots of games on it. Here the MSX games are not judged on graphical quality but on gameplay. ~Grauw -- email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit my homepage at http://grauw.blehq.org/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
Some colleges here @ my work might get hand on a developers-kit for color-gameboy. And they don't plan to make games, but to do little demos! A real CGB scene will come-up trying to get all from that small thingy.. this is about the same with the MSX scene. That's my point! Why is the GameBoy so successful, if it is obviously less powerful than PSX or DreamCast? Because GameBoy games are completely focused on playability instead of great visual effects. The same happens with the MSX: MSX users feel comfortable with their computer, and the MSX learning curve is very very fast because of the simpler hardware. No. Gameboy is portable. But indeed there is a (less close) scene like on MSX... The same goes for the TI-83 calculator (also a Z80 by the way). From that view, the 'big argument' of ASCII indeed makes sense. But it still is flawd: people already have got TI-83's for school, and they've got Gameboy's for the games on the holidays. Those things primary use is different from 'home computing', and they are small and fairly inexpensive. I doubt if a machine primarily aimed at home computing would be a success. ~Grauw -- email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit my homepage at http://grauw.blehq.org/ the advantage of an MSX in PC would be that msx'er can use all videocards (play quake-like games :) and use new cool soundcards. and ofcourse.. use athlons as well :) If you want to play PC-like games, then buy a PC. anybody ? Certainly not me. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aamsx.org MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
How strange that there are no messages in comp.sys.msx about the Japanese efforts to build a new MSX computer. There 's a lot of discussion going on about this in the msx mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). Could it be that most MSX fanatics are subscribed to that list and don't read this news group anymore? Or is there a separation between news group readers and mailing list readers??? I don't even know where to find this newsgroup. I have only a subscription to the mailinglist. But anyway, now you're posting this discussion to the mailinglist once again. Is this a mistake? Newsgroups are on usenet, the Mailinglist is on email. Email is mainly for personal contact, Usenet is only for discussions. Usenet is also setup in a very logical way with cascading subjects; all subjects replying to eachother are linked, even when the subject changes. It is in fact a better version of the mailinglist, which is merely an 'imitation' of usenet. Or actually the other way around. Usenet is far superior to email mailinglists. Then why does this list still exist? Well, it is harder to reach, and therefor the discussions here are more relevant and more fun to 'real' MSX users. On news://comp.sys.msx there is mainly emulator- and offtopic-talk. Maybe I should rephrase that. There is a lot of emulator- and offtopic talk which doesn't interest most 'active' MSX users. If you have a question concerning programming the chances of it getting answered are much higher on this list than on the MSX Newsgroup, because the real 'core' of the MSX users is gathered here. However, I think it's still too bad those two channels are seperated... An email-client like Outlook Express supports both. I think Eudora and Netscape also do. Refer to your provider's docs on how to set up your client. What should a new MSX look like? What would you want to be able to do with it (while making sure it remains a MSX and does not become a PC or a console)? I don't know. Isn't it so that everyone still using an MSX today is mainly attracted by the features the system has right now? It is indeed an interesting question WHY people so eagerly want to see a new MSX developed. I can't see any good reason, to be honest. No and yes. The scene is very important to me, and the Mailinglist. But indeed also the limitations attract me. However, it's more that current PC's are just too darn complex to program for. I know the basics of C++, Java(script), etc, but I get lost in all the different kinds of functions, flags, etc. It is totally untransparant to me. ~Grauw -- email me: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or ICQ: 10196372 visit my homepage at http://grauw.blehq.org/ MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
On Fri, 7 Jul 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do YOU think, should a new MSX be developed? Will it have a chance in the market that's dominated by PC's and 64 bit game consoles? Or will it create it's own market? It should be developed. There is still a somewhat large userbase, and more users would join if MSX computers were easily available in stores. They don't have a chance in the PC market, because they're completely different products. They would have its own market: from computer enthusiast who love to modify their machine themselves, to newbies who find PC computers too complex, to companies who need cheap computers to do simple tasks. What should a new MSX look like? What would you want to be able to do with it (while making sure it remains a MSX and does not become a PC or a console)? It should look like a MSX Turbo-R or the Amiga 1200. It should have at least one serial port, so Internet connectivity could be accomplished by connecting a modem. An embedded 2.5" IDE hard disk and an external IDE connector would be VERY apreciated. Maybe the CPU frequency should be raised a bit, but that's not so important. What would be the price you'd be willing to pay for a new MSX? If new turboR's would still be available in the shops, what would you be willing to pay for such a machine? Depends on the funcionality. But I wouldn't mind paying $600 for it. In fact, I would have paid $750 for a MSX Turbo-R several years ago if they weren't sold out. Also, some days ago I created a poll at www.aamsx.org, and 44% of the people say they would also pay more than $600 for this new machine. 24% say they would pay $450-$600 for it. After all: seeing is believing. But just think about it: if there's even a small chance, shouldn't we try to do everything we can to make it a succes? We should. We MUST. Regards, -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aamsx.org MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
RE: About the new MSX: what do users think?
hmmmz new msx ... I think a computer is dead when there're only some freaks left, and no prof. company. I think that after the Microcabin-era it was done commercially. Why a new MSX ... ? The risc of new developments is hardware production.. remember how expensive the OPL4 was ?? Why not make an OS for PC.. (eastern-os) which can use all PC cards (soundcards, videocards, network etc. etc.) and can acces harddisks etc. The OS could start in BASIC or DOS like we used to.. and basicly you can run about everything.. it's a bit like emulators nowadays.. but I don't know if it's possible to make an OS which doesn't just emulate MSX, but *is* an MSX. The only difference would be that you use other chips.. and that it would be faster (I hope) oh.. and don't start with discussions about that a real MSX has a cassette port :) Some colleges here @ my work might get hand on a developers-kit for color-gameboy. And they don't plan to make games, but to do little demos! A real CGB scene will come-up trying to get all from that small thingy.. this is about the same with the MSX scene. the advantage of an MSX in PC would be that msx'er can use all videocards (play quake-like games :) and use new cool soundcards. and ofcourse.. use athlons as well :) anybody ? Maarten van Strien, * composer * sounddesigner * Ixalance-sound developer - http://www.shortcut.nl/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] - Shortcut Software Development B.V. Julianaweg 9, 3603 AP Maarssen, The Netherlands. Phone: ++31 (0) 346 579 659 Fax: ++31 (0) 346 579 745 - MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
RE: About the new MSX: what do users think?
On Fri, 7 Jul 2000, Maarten van Strien (cs^tbl) wrote: I think a computer is dead when there're only some freaks left, and no prof. company. I think that after the Microcabin-era it was done commercially. Really? ESE Artists' Factory are making big bucks selling MSX Stuff. Syntax are. Sunrise are. MSX Magazine was sold out as soon as it was released again. Try to buy a copy of Kyokugen. They're all sold out. So the MSX is not so much dead as you may think. Why not make an OS for PC.. (eastern-os) which can use all PC cards (soundcards, videocards, network etc. etc.) and can acces harddisks etc. The OS could start in BASIC or DOS like we used to.. and basicly you can Anything like this is bullshit. Some colleges here @ my work might get hand on a developers-kit for color-gameboy. And they don't plan to make games, but to do little demos! A real CGB scene will come-up trying to get all from that small thingy.. this is about the same with the MSX scene. That's my point! Why is the GameBoy so successful, if it is obviously less powerful than PSX or DreamCast? Because GameBoy games are completely focused on playability instead of great visual effects. The same happens with the MSX: MSX users feel comfortable with their computer, and the MSX learning curve is very very fast because of the simpler hardware. the advantage of an MSX in PC would be that msx'er can use all videocards (play quake-like games :) and use new cool soundcards. and ofcourse.. use athlons as well :) If you want to play PC-like games, then buy a PC. anybody ? Certainly not me. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aamsx.org MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
Re: About the new MSX: what do users think?
How strange that there are no messages in comp.sys.msx about the Japanese efforts to build a new MSX computer. There 's a lot of discussion going on about this in the msx mailing list ([EMAIL PROTECTED]). Could it be that most MSX fanatics are subscribed to that list and don't read this news group anymore? Or is there a separation between news group readers and mailing list readers??? I don't even know where to find this newsgroup. I have only a subscription to the mailinglist. But anyway, now you're posting this discussion to the mailinglist once again. Is this a mistake? What do YOU think, should a new MSX be developed? Will it have a chance in the market that's dominated by PC's and 64 bit game consoles? Or will it create it's own market? There will definitely come a time in which PC's can't be improved any further. Eventually, computerdevelopers will have to find another way to gain their profits. Most likely is the way of virtual reality. But another way might be a whole different kind of PC, say an MSX. To write it like this may seem a little ridiculous, but what I mean to say is: create a computer with the same abilities as a PC but make it feature the same interior an MSX has. In short: let the PC enable the same kind of creativity which is enabled by the MSX. Users will start producing software on their own and the like. This might be an idea. Otherwise, I think there isn't much sense in developing a new MSX or something. What should a new MSX look like? What would you want to be able to do with it (while making sure it remains a MSX and does not become a PC or a console)? I don't know. Isn't it so that everyone still using an MSX today is mainly attracted by the features the system has right now? It is indeed an interesting question WHY people so eagerly want to see a new MSX developed. I can't see any good reason, to be honest. Of course it is easy to be sceptical about a new MSX being developed. After all: seeing is believing. But just think about it: if there's even a small chance, shouldn't we try to do everything we can to make it a succes? That depends on whether there is actual interest in a new MSX (see the thing I wrote above). Rieks. Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
RE: About the new MSX: what do users think?
I think a computer is dead when there're only some freaks left, and no prof. company. I think that after the Microcabin-era it was done commercially. To me, that is no opinion, but it's a FACT. Really? ESE Artists' Factory are making big bucks selling MSX Stuff. Syntax are. Sunrise are. MSX Magazine was sold out as soon as it was released again. Try to buy a copy of Kyokugen. They're all sold out. So the MSX is not so much dead as you may think. I don't think the groups you mention are making big bucks. The money they earn selling something is mainly the money they had to pay for the development (the parts etc.). The rest can be seen as some sort of insurance; for the production of the copies that are NOT sold, still had to be paid. Rieks. Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com MSX Mailinglist. To unsubscribe, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and put "unsubscribe msx [EMAIL PROTECTED]" (without the quotes) in the body (not the subject) of the message. Problems? contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] More information on MSX can be found in the following places: The MSX faq: http://www.faq.msxnet.org/ The MSX newsgroup: comp.sys.msx The MSX IRC channel: #MSX on Undernet
