On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
> > Our library is closed all weekend as we're on quarter break but I'll scan
> > a few covers for you on Monday. Maybe not until evening though.
>
> Eagerly waiting for them.
As I said, I'm not even looking in books till this evening, however, even
th
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
> I don't see any zillions, hardly a handul of them for your two
> examples. Compare with... errr..
I meant on the internet there are zillions. I chose only two which is now
two more than the total you admit to having seen in your entire
life.
-Conni
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:
> Well, that has the same author(!), so it doesn't count.
Do a google search for "pashto perso-arabic" to see that many authors
think Pashto is written in the Perso-Arabic script.
Then do a google search for "pashto arabic script" and you'll see with
just
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
> Come on Connie, you're still to provide a real example, from the
> books or streets whatever.
The "streets" stuff was a joke and I'm afraid I led Ordak on--no pun
intended-- a wild-goose chase, (sorry!) but here are some from published
books:
http:/
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
> don't pronounce them, but I agree that there are times that we do
> and there should be some trick in there. Still looking for the
> trick.
ok, please figure out when you do and when you don't say the exact same
name. That's what I'm after more than
On Mon, 14 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
> There is a chance that you are encountering a Tahoma's hinting bug that
> drops the bottom Noghte of Peh in certain sizes.
You were right. So there WAS another Yeh problem!
-Connie
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On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Ali A. Khanban wrote:
> >http://students.washington.edu/irina/PNMasumehYeM.jpg
> >
> Only one name comes with "ye badal az kasre", which is a bit odd. It
> might be a typo in her name or in her ID.
Concerning the Hamze Above instead of Kasre, I was just wanting to show
that t
On Thu, 17 Jun 2004, Ali A. Khanban wrote:
> Sure. No argument about that. "ye badal az kasre" is used, as we all
> know, when the first word ends in "aa", "oo", "unpronounced Heh", ...
Ok, I'm going to update my website with info on marking the ezaafe
one of these days. I'll submit it for flame-
On Fri, 18 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
> The bottom line: Thanks Connie, you showed us that there are
> people printing that thing in reality.
Behdad,
I'm so glad you also now see that to *forbid* marking ezaafe in personal
names is absurd.
Have a really nice day!
-Connie
_
On Sat, 19 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
> we are *specifying* a single way to do
> things.
Why the 2 calendars then?
-Connie
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On Tue, 29 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
> There is no other software known to
> the community that does Persian Unicode software properly without using
> either of those.
If you're talking about sorting, it was recently pointed out (see
archives) that Windows server 2003 can sort Persian p
I downloaded and installed the Persian keyboard from
http://www.farsiweb.info/howto/win2keyb/
and am very impressed with the shift+space and the numerals!
However, I can't seem to find the character "heh+hamzeh above". Is
it missing or am I doing something wrong? (This character is on
the shift+z
First of all, thanks to Behdad Esfahbod <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> and
Roozbeh Pournader <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> for replying to my
question. I really appreciate your help! I've been struggling in the
dark for such a long time with these things...
> I don't know if your font supports the character. If it do
> Question about nesf font supporting the Persian unicode.
>
> Some charcters like Hamze (over vav or alef) is not being displayed
> correctly and it will show as a rectangle. Is there any tricks displaying it
> correctly?
I don't think the nesf font has ANY diacritic marks, hamzeh, tashdid,
smal
Hello everyone,
I've just been informed that my friend Saber has told you all
about my project. He did this with the best of intentions but without
my knowledge. Believe me, I did not want to get you people who
are working so hard on font development and unicode problems to
be bothered with my sma
> > faqih>. They have nothing to offer to the Persian IT and language discusion.
>
> Would you please be more explicit, and provide a list of names?
>
> roozbeh
Don't be mad at Abi. Be mad at the people who aren't mad that in this
day and age one can't type Persian properly. Get the list of
name
> FARSI HEH WITH HAMZA discussion. I must say that i have
> read very intersting points of views. I am very thankful
> for such an open forum where we can discuss our common
> IT interests/issues intelligently.
Definitely. How can problems be solved if no one knows they exist?
-Connie
___
Hi all,
I finally got my site to a state of semi-completion:
http://depts.washington.edu/yekruz/
but warning: don't visit if you're allergic to "heh+yeh" as one glyph or
the most non-standard Nazanin font! (Newcomers, that is a joke, please see
the archives.)
I'm compiling a bunch of screenshots
> Snapshot using Konqueror 3.0.0-12, on KDE 3.0.0-10.
> http://www.linuxiran.org/downloads/yekruz.jpg
> Greetings,
> Arash
Hey, that Konqueror seems to be the best of the non WinIE5+'s. Thanks!
Thanks to everyone for generously sending screenshots/comments. I really
appreciate it.
I will compile
Hi everyone again,
All these screenshots and the enormous variety of renderings of one page
have given me an idea.
If anyone is interested, perhaps we could make another test page and again
have everyone make screenshots. Only, since the problems with my site may
be attributed to my bad code, we
> and that I can help in checking
> the standard compliance of the test suite if it is small (and to the
> point) enough.
>
ok, great, Roozbeh. Instead of checking, why don't you just write the
whole thing and submit for public scrutiny and let everyone deem it
compliant or not and offer suggesti
Here's my compendium:
http://depts.washington.edu/yekruz/bprobs.htm
Thanks to everyone who provided screenshots!
You can still send if you have more.
-Connie
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I just visited Borna Rayaneh's free font download page at
http://www.bornaray.com/en_fonts.asp?fn=per_fonts&rfn=en_fonts&parent=fontslist&;
and noticed a note on the top that says
"With these fonts the problems with diacritic, the comma to separate
numbers and the point for decimal numbers has be
> Well, fonts don't work the same way for me as I am using GNU/Linux. But as
> long as you use UTF-8 I will be able to seem them; most probably in another
> font, than the one you specify in your HTML or the one you use.
ok, then it WAS for technical reasons you couldn't use my font. I'm
learning!
> From: Aryan Ameri
> This discussion between Arash Z and C bobroff is really interesting.
Aryan,
You were so kind to send *six* screenshots when I'd asked earlier
and now also you send kind words and encouragement. And already I had a
good feeling yesterday after Arash's tho
> Don't believe me too. I was joking, I was just f***ing with
> Aryan
Oh. ok. That's good. (At least for me, not for Aryan.)
-Connie
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> Ah! I was
> forgetting: you are also providing some entertainment.
>
Alright! I will see if I can't provide more of this wholesome
entertainment then!
-Connie
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> I don't agree with Aryan. He has a wrong concept of freedom.
Aryan is perhaps thinking about the future. I wanted to get some content
up NOW. It is a rough question you have to face.
-Connie
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http:
> He can help get his OS/browser/fonts fixed and standard-compliant and send
> you a message like this: "Look, if you make your page this way, it is both
> completely standard-compliant and rendered smoothly and properly with this
> certain browser and fonts. Why don't you recommend this settings
ok, I was SO happy to find the embeddable fonts at Borna, I've made a
little tutorial for those WINDOWS users who don't know how to make .pdf
files out of Word docs (something which requires embeddable fonts.)
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/pdf.htm
I'm not an authority on this b
> From your comments about the Konqueror snapshot, that I had sent, I
> understood, that it comes close to what you wanted.
That's right. Only I just wasn't sure whether my font of choice wasn't
working because you didn't install it or because it was not possible for
technical reasons.
That is real
Behdad,
Thanks so much for this post. I've been wanting so much to see a
discussion on this topic for the longest time!
As usual, I'm better at providing more questions than answers.
> The other way, latest publication of The Persian Academy of
> Language and Literature
Is this available online? I
http://students.washington.edu/irina/other_stuff/compare_naz.htm
Here's the URL of a comparison I made of the old [1983 ?!] Sinasoft
version and the new Borna version.
This is only for people with a lot of time because you'll have to remove
your own Nazanin font (if you have) and install mine. (A
> That fascicle provides some guidelines, but many of the guidelines are far
> from desirable or are very ambiguous.
Oh. Too bad. Maybe we should make our own.
> "nim-faasele" is a typographers' term. The official ISIRI 6219 term
> (borrowed from ISIRI 3342) is "faasele-ye majaazi". There are also
> Thanks Roozbeh for lightening my TODO INBOX.
He lightened your load in the inbox and *enlightened* much for many
others.
> > "nim-faasele" is a typographers' term. The official ISIRI 6219 term
> > (borrowed from ISIRI 3342) is "faasele-ye majaazi". There are also people
> > suggesting "faasele-y
> But I believe we lack the authority to do that.
Some folks are good at Persian and some folks are good at computing but
it's hard to find both qualities in one person and it's hard to find a
group with both who can work together.
I'm not saying you have to publish anything official but there ar
> If you want my advice, Never put a full space between "mi-" and what
> follows it. It's horrible. If you can't enter ZWNJ, write it connected. It
> has been written this way for a long time, at least, and I guess still
> many oldies (!) write it this way.
LOL! There's a whole bunch of people who
> You are not wrong in computing, but that A0 is NBSP as you told
> yourself, which is NoBreak Space. But my beloved character is
> U+202F Narrow NoBreak Space. The important part is the Narrow
> one.
Oh yeah, duh. What was I thinking?? I've got to get some sleep or
something. But your beloved i
> Use charmap.
OK, I did but I'm still having trouble.
I found it with charmap under "General Punctuation" with Arial Unicode MS
font (but not Times New Roman--are spaces also part of fonts??) but when I
copy it into my doc, the space is actually WIDER than normal space.
Something wrong.
-Connie
Can you send me an attachement of this mystery character?
On Sat, 16 Nov 2002, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
> On Fri, 15 Nov 2002, C Bobroff wrote:
>
> > > Use charmap.
> > OK, I did but I'm still having trouble.
> > I found it with charmap under "General Punctu
> don't let it leak to the real world.
Yeah the contents were absolutely radioactive. Couldn't see much besides
garbage. I assume 2 of the bytes were letters and the 3rd was the space in
question.
I think Roozbeh had mentioned something about "hassles" :)
-Connie
___
> No! Three bytes was the single character in UTF-8 encoding.
Oh. I read some place one character per byte.
ok, then that BOX I was seeing with UTF-8 IS it and I WAS viewing it
ok.
Next time (if there is one) please send a .gif or something with some
words. Spaces can only be appreciated in conte
> But I will generate something with Omega typesetting engine, to show the
desired behaviour.
ok!
If it looks nice, we'll get the space added to the Nazanin font along with
all the other refurbishments!
-Connie
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> Why are we the only prophets of the God of Typography on the Internet?
Because there is a shortage of Persian geeks in the world! The people who
do Persian work with ink/paper and the people who do computers work in
English.
Although I wonder where the people publishing the literary magazines/bo
> Any ideas about how can that be changed?
Have friendly discussions like this?? Raise general awareness??
> There is usually a closed circle of (copy?) editors who learn their job
> through master-apprentice relations.
Oh. Do they have their own special software?
> It's "khabarnaame-ye anformaat
> Have been trying to do that for more than four years. No chance.
When you are in the line of standardizing a language which prides itself
on its ambiguities/flexibilities you're asking for trouble!
But hey, cheer up! Remember last month when I asked on this list for
screen shots? I got donations
> There has also been a strong interest in
> typography and Persian typography among these groups long before the
> Web; e.g. TeX.
Apparently they only do English, or, in case of TeX, math + English.
Ask if they've heard of the ZWNJ? If they've ever sorted any Persian?
If they know about the "y
Sorry, Monday morning and I can't type. Corrections:
>don't exist in Persian don't matter.
That don't exist in ARABIC...
>difference in folks with Iranians in the computer industry and Persian
with Iranian ANCESTRY...
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> There is a nice (and recent) slide presentation
Couldn't find slideshow. Please provide URL.
> The point is that many are interested, and have
> the knowhow.
Luckily the main participants on this list are (as Johnny so kindly
pointed out) busy with more important things at this moment otherwis
> http://farsitex.sourceforge.net/tug2002/ftexslides.pdf
I took a look. Very nice!
I was never able to get farsitex working :(
-Connie
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I decided to try out the recently advertised group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
thinking I could find out what is involved in adjusting embedding
permissions and kerning (I just picked up this term and don't know if that
is indeed what is causing the diacritics to break up connecting letters)
in my old versio
> where MS bought Nazanin and Mitra from
> Monotype.
Could you please clarify? MS bought font(s) originally designed as
freeware??
Does the first person who made Nazanin know about this? I sort of
imagined all these fonts were created in the 1980s out of some love of
Persian computing with no p
> Please tell the MS guy about it.
I most certainly intend to. As long as I have the facts correct. That's
why I'm checking with you first.
> Sinasoft doesn't claim any copyright on their old TTF fonts.
So Sinasoft made the first Nazanin, Mitra, etc?
What is Linotype that the MS guy mentions?
> T
> So it's Linotype? I thought it's Monotype. They should have got their
> hands on the outlines somewhere in the process.
Presumably there are employees of Linotype/Monotype among the silent
lurkers here enjoying our conversation...
> One point to raise is that the Nazanin we use is not *hinted*.
> It's good hinting that makes Tahoma the popular font it is.
Oh. Thanks for the info. I was indeed wondering why people were using that
font so much.
> You mean Unicode's SUPERSCRIPT ALEF?
You got it!
> I don't know what may
> have happened after that.
I see. But if all this was done more than
> We do need to. They told me that it is not for XP, but for the next thing.
I will do some sleuthing and begging. Maybe they'll make an exception and
release the font early.
This is a desperate situation.
> So that's a bug in Gecko. Simple!
But if Borna has figured out how to compensate for the b
> They need to sell it as part of something.
They don't NEED to do anything. They can include it among their acts of
charity!
And it doesn't hurt to ask. I will look into it.
> The best place we can get is making that
> IE 7.0.
Newbie has not understood. Fonts don't come as part of the browser. T
> Microsoft and charity? ;)
Just last week they gave $100 million to fight AIDS in India so I think
they can spare a Persian font or 2 :)
> But new fonts may get installed when you install a new browser.
Oh! Simply too cool! I didn't know.
> I'm not joking. That's a famous notion. Software Engine
I CC'd Roozbeh but here's my report for the benefit of the silent
lurkers:
--
In Arabic, use of diacritics causes letters which should normally join to
not join. (i.e. there is a small space between them although the correct
shaping is maintained.) This has resulted in websites avoiding
Check this out:
http://www.fontexplorer.com/FontStore?URL=http://www.fontexplorer.com/isroot/FontStore/content/01_news/content/news_04b_fontfeat_arch/home_06b_fcomp_arabic_types/news_04a_arab_nazanin.html
-Connie
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> That's interesting! This means that Linotype has designed Nazanin.
I hope so!
Please do contact SinaSoft. I just spoke with Microsoft. They did not buy
Nazanin. THey were linking of licensing it from Linotype but now that I
mentioned Sinasoft, they got scared away. Microsoft has no plans to make
> That's also my question. Why?
OK. Put your modesty in the garbage and tell us: is there anyone besides
you and Behdad who have both knowledge of Persian orthography AND the
required technical skills?
A quick look at Iranian websites in Persian would indicate no knowledge of
existence of ZWNJ or
>> > lists such as [EMAIL PROTECTED]; iran-news is the perfect
>
> Would you please do that, Skip? You have the link for the mailing lists,
> and the project's homepage.
I just emailed an announcement to iranian.com. They have perhaps the
largest readership in the Iranian diaspora. I'll send you
Ok, I've been busy on this font problem.
It turns out my friend is making an Uighur font for MS. I've seen it and
it will suffice for Persian until we get our own. It's just a little
"exotic" looking but it's much better than the current alternatives.
Now he thinks "heh" + "hamzeh" as 2 seperate
> But fonts are independent of KEYs. The ARABIC HAMZA ABOVE is U+0654.
Sorry, 0654, you're right.
You're also right that fonts are independent and until WinXP's successor
comes out, people will have to hunt around in charmap/special characters
or remap as this font is almost ready but still, he
e. Please wait for
> him. Also there are already a few ways of remapping the keyboard
> in all platforms. For example, search for Tavultesoft Keyman,
> also the Mehrsoft TrayLayout at
> http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=7773
>
> behdad
>
>
> On Tue
Hi!
Folks are complaining about no entertaining posts of late so here's some
good news:
I just downloaded Netscape 7.01 (on both WinXP and Win2000) and the
diacritics display problem has been fixed!
(However my bug report to Bugzilla on the problem remains "uncomfirmed".
How does one find out WHEN
> I am going to implement a feature for searching in
> database therefor my application
> has to be able to get data from user in Farsi.
Why don't you just put an on-screen keyboard so the user can click on
letters and they'll appear in a text box. They have these on many email
and online-diction
On Thu, 13 Feb 2003, Nasiri2 wrote:
> I think you are surprising about Mr. Connie genius solution for your
> problem, such as me.
Yes, it's true: I'm not the genius you all thought I was all these years.
I have been found out. I plead guilty. It was only a matter of time
before someone would
Dear All,
I want to share my latest discovery with you.
Please check out the superbly written, painstakingly edited,
professionally formatted and beautifully illustrated article on some
matters concerning Persian orthography and typography which have come up
on this list over the years:
http://t
Very cute job with Flash AND drives the point home!
Speaking of unicode, here'something I've been wondering about for a long
time: If unicode is so scrupulously attentive to details of
standardization, why is the naming scheme so haphazard? The names of the
Arabic letters are based on their Arabi
> and a requirement of ISO
> that the names stay the same forever, even if mistakes are found in them.
> Standards need to guarantee stabilities to some degree in order to be
> implemented, and character names looked one of the promising cases.
I see now! Thank you once again for the enlightenmen
Hugo,
That should have worked for you.
Try again and also enable Arabic input as well. Also download the latest
Internet Explorer which updates various things.
What version of Word are you using? I'm not sure anything before Word2000
does Perso-Arabic but I'm not sure.
-Connie
_
Someone is asking me the Mac question below which I can't answer. Maybe
one of you can help or knows of a Persian Mac forum?
---
Here's a brief "before and after" description of my problem in accessing
the
"Persian Transliterated" keyboard:
Before: I was using PowerBook G3, running OS 9.1 and Ni
ok, no more excuses for not typing ZWNJ!
http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/tools/msklc.mspx
-Connie
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On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, N. Silakhori wrote:
> I had a lot problems with changing the font
> size when Persian text was selected).
Has anyone figured out exactly when/why this happens? I think it's limited
to Win2000 but I'm not sure. I get people asking me for help with this
but I've never persona
> BTW the 'Remove Short Vowels' option hasn't been
> implemented yet, but will only take a couple minutes
> to do.
That would be very nice to have an option on webpages (and elsewhere) to
show/hide the short vowels.
That's one of the problems with schemes like Eurofarsi mentioned earlier:
once yo
> Attached file [.pdf] is preview of New Persian Keyboard layout preview.
Thanks. That's very helpful. Must have taken quite some time to make!
What is the character on alt+control+d ? It's putting me in footnote mode.
Possibly related to the fact I don't have MS Arial Unicode (or whatever
it's
> > What is the character on alt+control+d?
> It's the Arabic Alef Maksura. For cases you just need a "dandaane" in the
> middle of a word. Almost always Koranic quotes.
I also have only heard of Alif Maksura used in Arabic only in Final
position, never in initial, medial or isolated.
Please give
> If you can't take my word, I can go and search a Koran next time I went
> home. I don't have a Koran in the office.
And you wouldn't want to check any online Koran sites since that seems to
always entail getting your inbox filled with spam from Nigeria as a
consequence! I just love those!
> Gu
> Who are you addressing here? A fontmaker that is planning to support the
> whole Unicode Arabic range? She/he will definitely support them. But a
> fontmaker who is only interested in one language? Why in hell should
> she/he support them?
Hey, it's the Persian poets who liked to engage in tajni
> What if a fontmaker doesn't care about all those linguistics-only needs,
> and wants to give his mates just some support for their language proper,
> as used in modern times, and only in official letters?
Good point. Glad I'm keeping my jpeg-making software handy.
_
> I am not quite sure in which context standalone
> versions of maddah, hamzah above and hamzah below are used, but assume
> they are there because they are in the Unicode standard.
In a textbook, you might want to say, "This here is a maddah". In the
past, I wanted to show what a superscript al
> You should put them either over a space, or a Tatweel (U+0640, the base
> line extender that looks like a '_').
>
Just over a space is fine but the font should be able to render it and the
fontmakers don't always know what all people may want to type. If the
fontmakers see it's a character on t
> Depends on how you define "easy". Try!
If you don't redefine your concept of "easy", people are going to say it's
too hard to bother with this script and that's why they advocate
romanizing Persian.
Do you know just to enable FA input on a Windows machine is asking too
much for newbies? You sho
(This is why I found the dotless initial form on your draft
> keyboard difficult to interpret.)
Oh! Is THAT what that was.
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> An exhausted roozbeh
An exhausted but euphoric Roozbeh?
Admit it, you're enjoying every minute!
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> The visa won't get ready until Monday morning either.
Just in case the visa doesn't come Monday, you might consider making a
transliterated keyboard layout for those occasional Persian typists used
to the English keyboard.
-Connie
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> The visa won't get ready until Monday morning either. So I'm getting more
> frustrated, and I stick more to work. The whole reason I came to office
> today was to read possible emails on what happened with the visa.
No, I've alerted all the embassies of the world not to issue you any more
visas
> If you mean
> the software, it took about half an hour or a little more because of the
> nice MS tool for its creation.
Yes, that's what I meant and it took YOU half an hour but would have taken
me and the silent lurkers weeks or possibly never so thank you.
And did I hear you say, "nice MS too
> > I may help you with information from ALA-LC (American Library
> > Association/Library of Congress) containing exact lists of characters,
> > alongside with standard transliterations, for all languages you are
> > interested in.
For whatever they're worth, they're here as PDF files:
http://www
> No, no Nastaliq font. It's not the default for Persian anymore. People
> have a hard time reading Nastaliq for anything longer than a few words.
OK, bye-bye Nastaliq for Persian.
But I mean Persian Naskh or Naskhi as opposed to Arabic Naskh. I wish
there were a precise term to differentiate the
> BSD style licenses all allow you to exploit the system commercially;
> most people, however, choose to contribute their work back to the
> community.
I see. That's nice if it works.
> I didn't see a link from the index page at www.farsiweb.info to
> the Koodak font. It might be convient to have
> The point is, this is exactly just *that* Koodak, but only improved with
> regard to Unicode compatiblity.
ok, I guess that is good to keep the exact name. Too bad the person who
drew the original outlines remains a mystery.
> As for user (and computer ;)) education, that's not our expertise. We
> In
> countries like Iran where the availability of source can be a great
> teaching resource to students in schools and universities, it does a
> lot more good than perceived harm.
Did you see this video?
http://www.science-arts.org/src/story/presentations/video/all.ram
It's old (2001) but it f
> ...). Now both MS Windows and Red Hat Linux ship with those fonts.
Oh, so THAT'S what the plan was. Very nice!
-Connie
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There is already a font called Koodak. Won't users (and their computers)
have a problem when they THINK they are seeing this font but it's really
the old one? It won't occur to them to download the new one.
-Connie
On Thu, 7 Aug 2003, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
> As part of a set of TTF fonts we a
Fariborz,
Experience hath shown it's not the best use of time to discuss
this topic too much. In this case, I just don't want to think about the
people who will download the new Koodak for free and sell it for a nice
profit. Not fair to the Farsiweb team nor the person who first made
Koodak. I wond
> fanatics don't want 100% Unicode compatibility, which will show their
> Yehs (which is usually Arabic Yehs instead of Persian Yehs) show with
> two ugly dots below them.
I don't understand why all the Arabic Yehs on Persian websites and
documents. Some sort of hot fashion? Plain ignorance??
I
> Oh, the winner of the Funniest Word Award? It's "mooshi" for "mouse"!
Yeah, but they haven't said if we're to "klik" on the mooshi or what...
-Connie
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