FARSI HEH WITH HAMZA discussion. I must say that i have
read very intersting points of views. I am very thankful
for such an open forum where we can discuss our common
IT interests/issues intelligently.
Definitely. How can problems be solved if no one knows they exist?
-Connie
Hi all,
I finally got my site to a state of semi-completion:
http://depts.washington.edu/yekruz/
but warning: don't visit if you're allergic to heh+yeh as one glyph or
the most non-standard Nazanin font! (Newcomers, that is a joke, please see
the archives.)
I'm compiling a bunch of screenshots
Snapshot using Konqueror 3.0.0-12, on KDE 3.0.0-10.
http://www.linuxiran.org/downloads/yekruz.jpg
Greetings,
Arash
Hey, that Konqueror seems to be the best of the non WinIE5+'s. Thanks!
Thanks to everyone for generously sending screenshots/comments. I really
appreciate it.
I will compile
Here's my compendium:
http://depts.washington.edu/yekruz/bprobs.htm
Thanks to everyone who provided screenshots!
You can still send if you have more.
-Connie
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Ah! I was
forgetting: you are also providing some entertainment.
Alright! I will see if I can't provide more of this wholesome
entertainment then!
-Connie
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He can help get his OS/browser/fonts fixed and standard-compliant and send
you a message like this: Look, if you make your page this way, it is both
completely standard-compliant and rendered smoothly and properly with this
certain browser and fonts. Why don't you recommend this settings to
ok, I was SO happy to find the embeddable fonts at Borna, I've made a
little tutorial for those WINDOWS users who don't know how to make .pdf
files out of Word docs (something which requires embeddable fonts.)
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/pdf.htm
I'm not an authority on this
Behdad,
Thanks so much for this post. I've been wanting so much to see a
discussion on this topic for the longest time!
As usual, I'm better at providing more questions than answers.
The other way, latest publication of The Persian Academy of
Language and Literature
Is this available online? I
But I believe we lack the authority to do that.
Some folks are good at Persian and some folks are good at computing but
it's hard to find both qualities in one person and it's hard to find a
group with both who can work together.
I'm not saying you have to publish anything official but there
There has also been a strong interest in
typography and Persian typography among these groups long before the
Web; e.g. TeX.
Apparently they only do English, or, in case of TeX, math + English.
Ask if they've heard of the ZWNJ? If they've ever sorted any Persian?
If they know about the yeh
There is a nice (and recent) slide presentation
Couldn't find slideshow. Please provide URL.
The point is that many are interested, and have
the knowhow.
Luckily the main participants on this list are (as Johnny so kindly
pointed out) busy with more important things at this moment otherwise,
I decided to try out the recently advertised group
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
thinking I could find out what is involved in adjusting embedding
permissions and kerning (I just picked up this term and don't know if that
is indeed what is causing the diacritics to break up connecting letters)
in my old
where MS bought Nazanin and Mitra from
Monotype.
Could you please clarify? MS bought font(s) originally designed as
freeware??
Does the first person who made Nazanin know about this? I sort of
imagined all these fonts were created in the 1980s out of some love of
Persian computing with no
Please tell the MS guy about it.
I most certainly intend to. As long as I have the facts correct. That's
why I'm checking with you first.
Sinasoft doesn't claim any copyright on their old TTF fonts.
So Sinasoft made the first Nazanin, Mitra, etc?
What is Linotype that the MS guy mentions?
We do need to. They told me that it is not for XP, but for the next thing.
I will do some sleuthing and begging. Maybe they'll make an exception and
release the font early.
This is a desperate situation.
So that's a bug in Gecko. Simple!
But if Borna has figured out how to compensate for the
and a requirement of ISO
that the names stay the same forever, even if mistakes are found in them.
Standards need to guarantee stabilities to some degree in order to be
implemented, and character names looked one of the promising cases.
I see now! Thank you once again for the enlightenment.
Hugo,
That should have worked for you.
Try again and also enable Arabic input as well. Also download the latest
Internet Explorer which updates various things.
What version of Word are you using? I'm not sure anything before Word2000
does Perso-Arabic but I'm not sure.
-Connie
Who are you addressing here? A fontmaker that is planning to support the
whole Unicode Arabic range? She/he will definitely support them. But a
fontmaker who is only interested in one language? Why in hell should
she/he support them?
Hey, it's the Persian poets who liked to engage in tajnis.
Depends on how you define easy. Try!
If you don't redefine your concept of easy, people are going to say it's
too hard to bother with this script and that's why they advocate
romanizing Persian.
Do you know just to enable FA input on a Windows machine is asking too
much for newbies? You should
(This is why I found the dotless initial form on your draft
keyboard difficult to interpret.)
Oh! Is THAT what that was.
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An exhausted roozbeh
An exhausted but euphoric Roozbeh?
Admit it, you're enjoying every minute!
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I may help you with information from ALA-LC (American Library
Association/Library of Congress) containing exact lists of characters,
alongside with standard transliterations, for all languages you are
interested in.
For whatever they're worth, they're here as PDF files:
BSD style licenses all allow you to exploit the system commercially;
most people, however, choose to contribute their work back to the
community.
I see. That's nice if it works.
I didn't see a link from the index page at www.farsiweb.info to
the Koodak font. It might be convient to have one.
The point is, this is exactly just *that* Koodak, but only improved with
regard to Unicode compatiblity.
ok, I guess that is good to keep the exact name. Too bad the person who
drew the original outlines remains a mystery.
As for user (and computer ;)) education, that's not our expertise.
In
countries like Iran where the availability of source can be a great
teaching resource to students in schools and universities, it does a
lot more good than perceived harm.
Did you see this video?
http://www.science-arts.org/src/story/presentations/video/all.ram
It's old (2001) but it
...). Now both MS Windows and Red Hat Linux ship with those fonts.
Oh, so THAT'S what the plan was. Very nice!
-Connie
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Hi Arash,
The same list is also available from www.amitis.org under the terminology
section.
I couldn't locate the terminology section. Can you give a direct URL?
Thanks,
Connie
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Arash,
The reason you need to register is because
people are able to submit new entries. We need to change this later so
that anonymous users can see and reg. users can see and post.
In fact I'd long been wondering whether anyone was taking on such a
project as this. Hope you attract lots
taghghe bezanid?
We'll have to wait and see if the Academy passes that one!
-Connie
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On Sun, 5 Oct 2003, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
Hey Mr Connie Genius,
The subject line ;).
http://www.persian-language.org/
Hehe. It's not for nothin' I'm called Mr Connie Genius!
Yeah, I knew what was coming as I was treated to those 2 beautiful final
dots of farsi in the title of the page long
Ever considered having a nick name of Joe? See: Mr Joe Genius.
Those Qazvini's really like my name and I've had a lot of fun with it, and
it has generated much laughter and good-will, therefore it stays.
Tell them you are going to put them in your black list if they
don't act in 24 hours.
They *could* be instructed. Google is very bad in linguistics, specially
when considering Persian.
Oh? So they ARE supposed to be equal and the problem is with Google and
not with those tables. I'm greatly relieved!
Next question: Why hasn't Google been instructed? How can we give it a
Isn't this only about *English* button labels?
I was going to ask the same thing...
-Connie
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I think this is new:
http://www.parstranslator.net
I tried the online service and it was quite fine. I don't know about the
downloadable one.
-Connie
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Pars Translator as English to Persian (Farsi) translation and dictionary is
not new. We begun this services last year and this software has a 7 years
market. Anyway, we are looking for interested group to have a joint project
for Persian (Farsi) to English translator (text).
Regards,
Pars
as well?
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2003 12:20:19 +0200
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: C Bobroff [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: font sizes in office 2000
Hi Connie - it really was no trouble at all! You're welcome to post my
text,
but please put in that the option to choose Arabic as favourite language
2) One of the callers says Farsi in a question, then immediately
corrects himself with Persian!
TOO immediately. Sounded like he thinks Farsi-Persian is the complete,
proper name of some language! (Can't blame him!)
-Connie
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Check this out:
http://www.arabeyes.org/ace.php?ace=pournaderlang=en
-Connie
-
It is Arabeyes.org's utmost pleasure to note that Roozbeh Pournader
is this Quarter's featured ACE.
Do please read his interview (available in both English and Arabic)
to get a better glimpse into
As described in the book Nogh-teh GozAri (The official Persian Manual of Editing,
Vol.5, Punctuaion Book) written by Mohammad-RezA Mohammadi-Far, page 460:
It is not correct to use comma (,) or U+06CC to separate every group of thousands
in numbers. Instead, the editor must use the Persian
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
Reh is a workaround for the decimal separator (U+066B). This is the
first time I'm seeing it recommended for a thousands separator.
Perhaps due to English (American???) influence? Otherwise, Persian has
borrowed punctuation from French where, in the
Thomas,
When you're in Word, just go
Tools Options Complex Scripts Context
Context means it will see that you're typing Persian and change the
numbers accordingly to Persian.
There's a bug with page numbers if you want to read about it:
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
On Wed, 2004-01-07 at 18:36, Thomas Speck wrote:
When I start Word 2003, and change the language to farsi, i can type in
farsi, but the numerals appear in western typeset.
That's a misfeature in MS Windows keyboard layouts.
I think it's
Well, almost nobody can read even the text of their (the Calligrapher
Association's) arm... ;)
Likely a feature, not a bug.
-Connie
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Behzad,
You are a wonder with scanner and hi-liter! Thank you and good job!!
I'll let you know when the museum exposition is ready for your perusal.
(Certain others may like to note how promptly Behzad has sent that when
I'm still waiting for printed wedding invitations, flyers, invoices, etc
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
As a webmaster, I rather to use 'Reh', which consists with Web Usability Rules.
Which Web Usability Rules??
Presumably he doesn't like the users to see a box or ??? or ,.
The old font problem as usual! That is the source of all our problems!
On Tue, 6 Jan 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
Please quote
the exact Persian text (in faargilisi if necessary).
By the way, what is the difference between faargilisi and finglish?
-Connie
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On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
No. That is simply a bug. People started to forget Persian
numerals just after microsoft did this. To back my opinion just
note that in the old Dos era everyone used Persian numerals. And
the simple reason that MS did this bug *intentionally* is
On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
Historically (I see you are interested ;)
snip
Well, that's almost it.
Yes, that is interesting! Let us know if there's more!
-Connie
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On Wed, 7 Jan 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
I tried to convince him to refine his work based on better references,
but he didn't seem interested enough.
OK, one whole person gave him feedback.
told me. I have his email address, if you want to try it yourself. He
happens to read his emails,
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
You can download your copy from:
http://www.farsiweb.info/font/farsifonts-0.2.zip
I can't download.
I'm getting an alert box that says The Compressed (zipped) Folder is
invalid or corrupted.
Is it just me?
-Connie
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, Payam Poursaied wrote:
would someone please help me to create persian font footnote? [MS word]
in the body of text, it is displayed by persian digits, but in the
footnote section it appears in latin digits
Payam,
This is a bug but I can think of two solutions for now.
If
On Sun, 11 Jan 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
Other people like Connie are
sacrificing their life to get our comments and translate it into
pages that the other 90% can understand.
Speaking of which, I'm just today attempting to make a Persian keyboard
for fingers which are used to typing
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
We did that because we wanted to allow all the ASCII printable
characters. The real need was for things like XML, where some of these
characters are part of the syntax. The user will want to enter Persian
XML without ever switching to a Latin
On Mon, 12 Jan 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
Put them in if you have the space. They'll prove to be necessary. It's
not XML only. It's everything that is considered *rich text*, a text
file that is supposed to mean more than the exact text. HTML, XML, TeX,
...
Sure, I'll put them.
I wish
A comment on Tom Milo: he is an expert in the script, but not in Unicode
really. What he says and writes are wonderful stuff (specifically the
calligraphy parts), but don't trust the accuracy of what he says about
Unicode or other standards.
I appreciated the mention of ae (as opposed to
By the way, who ARE the Aryanpour brothers? We see their data in online
dictionaries all over the place. Do they not know or care? Of course,
the printed versions keep getting reprinted so they get some benefit. But
what is their story? Have they ever spoken on this subject?
-Connie
On Thu, 4 Mar 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
that have access to Aryanpour hardcopy can spend a few minutes to
confirm that the dictionary at http://www.math.columbia.edu/~safari/dictionary/
contains the Aryanpour data.
Aryanpur Kashani, Abbas. The Concise English-Persian dictionary.
-Connie
On Sat, 6 Mar 2004, Behnam Esfahbod wrote:
In new mozilla release (1.7a), the bug for alignment of nested
right-to-left lists has fixed. Now all type of lists (ol|ul) work
properly in RtL direction.
Test Page: http://bamdad.org/~behnam/test/list.fa.html
But the numbers in the list are
On Sun, 9 May 2004, Masoud Sharbiani wrote:
No, I did not have any additional fonts on my machine: the machine was
re-installed 2 days before the experiment, with Win98SE, plus all available
updates, plus NetScape Communicator 4.8 and ORinoco wireless drivers.
None of these include Koodak font,
On Sun, 9 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:
There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However,
in certain cases such as in the month calendar headers it is acceptable
to use the first letter of weekdays. The direction is also from right to
left.
Maybe you should also mention
We've had a few discussions about WEFT before in the past but never really
explored it completely. Therefore, I made this demo page in both
English and Persian and embedded Tahoma, Koodak(by FarsiWeb) and Arabic
Typesetting:
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/weft.htm
Can you
On Fri, 7 May 2004, Arash Zeini wrote:
Hi Arash,
You must have an older version of Tahoma on your computer. I think these
Latin characters with diacritics were only recently added to Tahoma. (They
seem to have forgotten z with line underneath even in the latest which is
a problem for Persian
On Fri, 7 May 2004 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi Fariborz,
(I know you really don't want to hear
from eye-rain-ians ).
If you're referring to seeing too much rain around here this morning,
you're absolutely right :)
What I've found
useful -- especially for testing -- is VMWare.
The reason
On Tue, 27 Apr 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
I think we should conclude that abbreviations should be avoided.
Good you finally got it... ;)
Thank you for your vigilance ...and patience, Behdad.
-Connie
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Iran Localization Info for Microsoft .NET
Omid,
Thanks and good idea.
Why not also include Afghan and Tajik data? No one is looking out for
them. For example, I recently tried to figure out the date in Afghanistan.
There are dozens of online converters but all they've done I think is take
On Wed, 28 Apr 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:
Oh! I am late to vote!
No hurry, votes can be added any time. All I ask is that voters
actually be living in Iran. If anyone else still wants to submit their
vote, please do so.
It is very common to use the first letter of weekdays in month calendars.
that there are a couple of Russian-made (not hacked) fonts
around, too.
Peter
-Original Message-
From: C Bobroff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 9:16 PM
To: Linguasoft
Cc: 'Roozbeh Pournader'; 'PersianComputing'
Subject: RE: IranL10nInfo
On Thu, 29 Apr 2004
On Sun, 2 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:
[3.2.3]
There is no abbreviated form for the weekday names in Persian. However, it
is common to use the first letter of weekdays in the month calendars as
^^
Common?
How about, acceptable or something like that?
-Connie
On Mon, 3 May 2004, Jon D. wrote:
http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/fonts/xtajmcyr.ttf
http://students.cs.byu.edu/~jonsafar/fonts/xtajtcyr.ttf
Thanks, Jon. I guess these are hacked Monaco and Times New Roman
although I didn't look too carefully.
Meanwhile, Peter has sent me a keyboard and
On Sat, 15 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
So we've reached a consensus on using Iranian Calendar for the
term referring to the solar calendar in action in Tehran, right?
Iranian Calendar does sound like the best choice.
Can you please be sure to mention in the documentation somewhere also
On Sun, 16 May 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:
The lunar Hijri calendar used in Iran is also an official calendar and
is calculated independent from other Hijri calendars used in other
islamic countries. It is an important calendar, since it determines
half of the holidays on our calendar. We also
On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:
Iranian Calendar is okay IMHO, but I like the Persian Calendar
better for the name of the calendar system, since it covers more
countries. In Iran we use the Iranian subtype of the Persian calendar,
and in Afghanistan the Jalali subtype is used. I don't
On Sun, 16 May 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
Something no
body said is the Tajik people. I've heard they use the same
calendar, is it right?
Hang on a few days. I'll ask. -Connie
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On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:
http://emr.cs.iit.edu/home/reingold/calendar-book/second-edition/CIIT.ht
ml
Thanks. I took a look. Perhaps the Islamic calendars should provide the
time as well as the date and also say which time zone/region the calendar
is referring to.
I guess this
Thanks to Peter, I finally got the Tajik project going (although under
construction!) here:
http://depts.washington.edu/yekruz/dialects/dialectsOfPersian.html
I've had a lot of problems and I'm throwing them at you for your kind
perusal and discussion of any points:
1. When viewed on WinXP/IE6,
On Mon, 17 May 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:
Shaahanshaahi calendar was introduced in 1355 and abolished in 1357.
It was simply a map:
Add 1180 to Iranian calendar.
But is that the official name? I might have just made that up.
Abbreviations??
-Connie
On Mon, 17 May 2004, Ali A Khanban wrote:
Of course, it is possible to find the exact date, for example by looking
at the archive of Ettela'at or Kayhan newspapers, and see when the
date in their title changes. Unfortunately, I don't have access to them
at the moment, maybe later.
ok, the
On Tue, 18 May 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:
- Birashk's book. He had published a book on his work, if memory
serves me, it was called 'taarikh-tatbighi-ye Iran'.
Looks like the English version of this book is on sale if you're
interested:
On Sun, 16 May 2004, Omid K. Rad wrote:
But since I was drawn to this calendar thing I realized that the correct
word is actually 'Amordad'
Recommend you avoid correcting anything. Once you make a decision to
correct one thing, you'll end up having to correct more and more and
then it will
On Tue, 18 May 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:
On a second thought, I got reluctant
to discuss this matter on the list. It would be way off topic.
Moreover, I am afraid that whatever I say could be interpreted as
political statement or religious evangelism and start flamewars.
Looks like Fortune
Actually, all this off-topic mix of calendars and philosophy
has reminded me that when I was writing something (in English) a few
months ago on Al-Biruni, whenever his name came up at the end of the line
in Word, it would wrap and so the Al- would be on one line and the
Biruni would go down to the
On Wed, 19 May 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:
Interesting. Sorry for my ignorance, but is that keyboard available
publicly?
You can re-live its creation here in the archives:
http://lists.sharif.edu/pipermail/persiancomputing/2003-June/000538.html
And you can download it here:
On Wed, 19 May 2004, Behnam wrote:
The Unicode character is U-2011, Non-Breaking Hyphen. If you don't have
it on your keyboard, you may be able to use this information to type it
with other tools or utilities.
As Ordak D. Coward reports, Ctrl-Shift-Hyphen instead of hyphen does
the trick in
Dear Hooman,
I may move these stories to my pending
weblog which hopefully will open in the next several days.
Why should you move to your weblog? I can't think of a better
place for the story of Persian computing than PersianComputing.
One more thing, the reason that I may seem talented
, at 5:38 PM, C Bobroff wrote:
U+2011 should definitely be part of the custom Perso-Arabic
transliteration keyboards. (Hint to Peter)
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Hello Mac expert(s),
Below are some Persian Mac questions. Any answers you can supply would
be greatly appreciated. You can also add your own questions or re-word!
Thank you!
WORD-PROCESSING
1. Is it possible to type complete and correct Persian including ZWNJ and
punctuation in a text
On Wed, 19 May 2004, Behnam wrote:
That's alright. I don't like to make a fool of myself if it's not in
public!
I feel the same way!
answer to your specific
questions, I'll send them later.
Thank you for your blurb. But you sound very pessimistic when the
screenshot you sent me (privately)
On Thu, 20 May 2004, Hooman Mehr wrote:
I'll write some crime stories. But don't expect anything this week, I
am very busy.
OK! But if we are to properly judge your confession of past crimes, be
sure to not leave out any details and please start from the beginning. You
know, the glaciers were
On Thu, 20 May 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:
BTW, why the
Shift-Space combination does not work?
Because the Microsoft Keyboard Layout Creator
http://www.microsoft.com/globaldev/tools/msklc.mspx
thought the space bar is reserved for only spacing characters.
Roozbeh said he sent MS a list of such
Well, I thought I was done with the Weft demo page,
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/weft.htm and could now
catch up on my non-computing activities. Picked up reading Jamalzadeh's
Dar al-Majanin where I'd left off months ago. What did I run into after
just 2 pages? I looked at the
Thanks to three Mac users on this list, I was able to collect some basic
info on Persian Mac computing here:
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/mac.html
I hope this will fill an information gap for the users as well as provide
a place in English for the Apple people to see that
Thank you, Eva. I have wasted no time adding your additional tips to my
Persian Mac info page in English:
http://students.washington.edu/irina/persianword/mac.html
I did edit out the Dear fiends part although I'm afraid your
subconscious has discovered the true nature of the folks here :)
Hope
On Wed, 2 Jun 2004, Behdad Esfahbod wrote:
their dictionary available for download is infringing copyright
of the Aryanpours
What I understood from that discussion was that a lot of online
dictionaries are using Aryanpour data with no mention of the name
Aryanpour. Others mention Aryanpour but
On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Pedram Safari wrote:
I do not know about pronunciation, but the dictionary at
http://www.math.columbia.edu/~safari/dictionary/
(which was discussed above) is transliteration-based (using the so-called
mikhi alphabet, available on the right side of the page), if that is
On Thu, 3 Jun 2004, Ordak D. Coward wrote:
I recently came across this article
http://www.khabgard.com/?id=844986758 which is endorsed by some other
weblog authors. The author encourages using adifferent Yeh characters
for middle and end placements.
Oh my!
I think someone was listening to
On Fri, 4 Jun 2004, Ehsan Akhgari wrote:
I volunteer to implement a web interface for the dictionary,
Excellent!
You'll have to make it so that whether the user types in bi[ZWNJ]kaar,
bikaar, or bi kaar, the word will be found!
but I think we'll need other
people's help as well, because I
On Sat, 5 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
There are many claims that this doesn't add anything to the Mo'in
Persian dictionary,
How is that possible when it's physically twice as big?
And now Pedram informs us it has a different approach, namely
*definitions* rather than *synonyms*.
and is
On Sun, 6 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
MS Word?!! You really believe a professional publisher can prepare
Persian print quality books in MS Word?!
I just thought the typist had used MS Word, then exported to Excel and
then to some publishing program. That was in response to Behdad
On Sun, 6 Jun 2004, Roozbeh Pournader wrote:
new parts are not comparable in quality to Moin's work, with wrong
etymologies, bad definitions, etc.
That would be a problem. However, the bad entries can be edited out as
they are discovered.
I don't agree. I believe the publisher has long time
On Mon, 2004-06-07 at 08:20, C Bobroff wrote:
I just thought the typist had used MS Word, then exported to Excel and
then to some publishing program.
I'm sure both MS Word and MS Excel would crash under the weight of so
much text.
Who said they didn't break it up into smaller files
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