Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
Very good to know. Thank you! On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 8:50 AM, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: > On 04/11/2016 04:13 PM, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: > >>> I *might* download and compile it > > As of revision 14597, working with your Unnamed.rg file: > > When you find the whole notes that are too big for their measures, you > can select them and Adjust -> Notes... -> Tie Notes at Barlines > > When you find those three notes that are supposed to be in a separate > voice, you can select them and Segment -> New Layer From Selection > > This creates a new segment with the same properties as the current > working segment, cuts the notes out of the original, pastes them into > the new segment at the same place. They don't seem to move at all, > etc., and just change places. All I ended up doing was just stringing > together a bunch of off-the-shelf stuff in a new and time-saving way. I > folded together bits of code lifted from several places, and got it > knocked together in a couple of hours. > > There some issues with the new function I just added. > > * If you undo this operation, the notes move back where they came from, > but the new segment remains. I don't know how to solve that, so I left > the loose end for someone else to attack one of these days. > > * The rests come out just looking like hell. Rosegarden doesn't really > handle this overall situation very well at all. It's a hacky kludge > more than a real feature, and it always has been. I've been dealing > with it for years, because fixing it properly would be a very large > undertaking. One day I want to improve the way Rosegarden deals with > rests and such in alternative voice segments, but that is a big project, > and I have bite sized chunks of time. > > * I haven't made up an icon for the thing yet. > -- > D. Michael McIntyre > > -- > Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager > Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of > your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and > reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! > https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z > ___ > Rosegarden-user mailing list > Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user -- Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On 04/11/2016 04:13 PM, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: >> I *might* download and compile it As of revision 14597, working with your Unnamed.rg file: When you find the whole notes that are too big for their measures, you can select them and Adjust -> Notes... -> Tie Notes at Barlines When you find those three notes that are supposed to be in a separate voice, you can select them and Segment -> New Layer From Selection This creates a new segment with the same properties as the current working segment, cuts the notes out of the original, pastes them into the new segment at the same place. They don't seem to move at all, etc., and just change places. All I ended up doing was just stringing together a bunch of off-the-shelf stuff in a new and time-saving way. I folded together bits of code lifted from several places, and got it knocked together in a couple of hours. There some issues with the new function I just added. * If you undo this operation, the notes move back where they came from, but the new segment remains. I don't know how to solve that, so I left the loose end for someone else to attack one of these days. * The rests come out just looking like hell. Rosegarden doesn't really handle this overall situation very well at all. It's a hacky kludge more than a real feature, and it always has been. I've been dealing with it for years, because fixing it properly would be a very large undertaking. One day I want to improve the way Rosegarden deals with rests and such in alternative voice segments, but that is a big project, and I have bite sized chunks of time. * I haven't made up an icon for the thing yet. -- D. Michael McIntyre -- Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On 04/11/2016 03:15 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > Awesome! I need to check with the maintainers of the Opensuse > Multimedia repo. Hopefully it's there soon. (I *might* download and > compile it, but I hate messing up the usefulness of a package > manager.) It could take months or years for any work I do now to show up in a distro package. I have to release it first (1-3 months, or longer), then the package maintainer has to pick it up and update his package, which usually involves patching things to suit the peculiarities of his particular distro, and then the package has to sit around for however long it takes to find its way into being released by the distro (varies wildly from days to years). The better way to go is to just track the development source repository, the way we developers do. Some distros hack Rosegarden to force it to install a bunch of things to system directories (see: distro peculiarities), but the stock version the way we publish it can run out of the directory where you compiled the thing, without installing anything. At the moment I have 20 different versions of Rosegarden in my user directory, along with my distro package version to make 21. I can run all of them at the same time if I want to juggle that many windows. Seriously, this is one project where you can play with the development stuff all day long without ever messing up your trusty distro package. > And you rock! If I ever get a chance to buy you a beer or whatever > your drink is, I will damn well do so. Also, is there a way to donate > to the project? I can't spare much, but I'd like to contribute. You have contributed plenty just by showing up at the right time and throwing some nice bite sized problems at me that are well inside my comfort zone. I don't have a lot of free time, and I just can't manage big, ambitious undertakings right now. I can knock some of this stuff out, and feel like I accomplished something. It's nice. We have a donation page, but I took the link down. You guys are probably more broke than I am. I do enjoy beer, and if you're ever in town -- D. Michael McIntyre -- Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
Awesome! I need to check with the maintainers of the Opensuse Multimedia repo. Hopefully it's there soon. (I *might* download and compile it, but I hate messing up the usefulness of a package manager.) And you rock! If I ever get a chance to buy you a beer or whatever your drink is, I will damn well do so. Also, is there a way to donate to the project? I can't spare much, but I'd like to contribute. On Mon, Apr 11, 2016 at 11:20 AM, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: > On 04/11/2016 07:09 AM, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: > >> So this tie notes at bars thing does work, but these 4-beat notes in a >> 2-beat bar are a case it does not handle. Looks like it has been that >> way about 15 years. > > I got that one dealt with. If you ever end up in this situation again, > you can select all those whole notes in 2/4 time and Adjust -> Notes... > -> Tie Notes at Barlines now. > > As a nice bonus, the next time you change from 4/4 to 2/4 you won't even > have to run this manually. The underlying function was already being > called in this scenario, but it didn't handle this case correctly. It > does now. > > After manually fixing the whole notes in your file, I changed the time > signature to 1/4 and immediately got four tied quarter notes, one per bar. > > Perfect. > > Well there you go. Removing one = sign went a very long way this time! > > -- > D. Michael McIntyre > > -- > Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager > Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of > your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and > reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/ > gampad/clk?id=1444514301&iu=/ca-pub-7940484522588532 > ___ > Rosegarden-user mailing list > Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user -- Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! https://ad.doubleclick.net/ddm/clk/302982198;130105516;z ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On 04/11/2016 07:09 AM, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: > So this tie notes at bars thing does work, but these 4-beat notes in a > 2-beat bar are a case it does not handle. Looks like it has been that > way about 15 years. I got that one dealt with. If you ever end up in this situation again, you can select all those whole notes in 2/4 time and Adjust -> Notes... -> Tie Notes at Barlines now. As a nice bonus, the next time you change from 4/4 to 2/4 you won't even have to run this manually. The underlying function was already being called in this scenario, but it didn't handle this case correctly. It does now. After manually fixing the whole notes in your file, I changed the time signature to 1/4 and immediately got four tied quarter notes, one per bar. Perfect. Well there you go. Removing one = sign went a very long way this time! -- D. Michael McIntyre -- Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/ gampad/clk?id=1444514301&iu=/ca-pub-7940484522588532 ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
> On Apr 10, 2016 23:07, Silas Mortimer wrote: >> >> On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 5:46 AM, chuck elliot >> wrote: >> > Actually there are devices that do this. I have a Roland GI 10 >> > guitar/midi interface which is basically a real time pitch to midi >> > converter. It handles pitch bend too and does an impressive job >> > without too much delay and glitches. Paired with a midi sound module, >> > you can (in theory) play any instrument using the guitar as the input >> > device. Whether this is effective or not depends on the nature of the >> > target instrument; wind instruments work pretty well but piano say >> > is harder to mimic in terms of playing style. >> >> That is excellent! I shall have to save up for that. > > My church band's former lead guitarist had a guitar MIDI setup with stomp > box synthesizer. Got some great string sounds out of it. And it picked up > bends and the whammy bar on his Strat. > > Jerry Garcia used a guitar MIDI setup (built into his custom-built > guitars). So did Al Di Meola, running it into a Classic Mac that sat there > on stage with him. Saw it in a solo performance of his televised ages ago. > > Apparently these things have been around a long time. > > David W. Jones > gn...@hawaii.rr.com > authenticity, honesty, community > http://dancingtreefrog.com > You are right. I remember these things from when I was a young man and I'm an old man now. On Linux you can set up a pitch to MIDI converter in AMS (ALSA Modular Synthesizer) and a MIDI output envelope tracker, without too much trouble. Or, you can output the pitch and envelope information as a control voltage (CV) if you have a DC coupled soundcard (usually those are the really really cheap ones) and use that to control an analog synthesizer with a guitar as the controller. Once you start coupling innovative controllers with AMS and Rosegarden and perhaps back the other way also, things get really interesting and creative. Have fun! -- Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/ gampad/clk?id=1444514301&iu=/ca-pub-7940484522588532 ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On 04/11/2016 05:06 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > Thank you very much for the information! And I definitely won't be > leaving Rosegarden any time soon. I'm really having fun with this. You caught me at a better time than most new users do. It's not often I can get work done this close to somebody having a problem. So this tie notes at bars thing does work, but these 4-beat notes in a 2-beat bar are a case it does not handle. Looks like it has been that way about 15 years. -- D. Michael McIntyre -- Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/ gampad/clk?id=1444514301&iu=/ca-pub-7940484522588532 ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On Apr 10, 2016 23:07, Silas Mortimer wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 5:46 AM, chuck elliot > wrote: > > Actually there are devices that do this. I have a Roland GI 10 > > guitar/midi interface which is basically a real time pitch to midi > > converter. It handles pitch bend too and does an impressive job > > without too much delay and glitches. Paired with a midi sound module, > > you can (in theory) play any instrument using the guitar as the input > > device. Whether this is effective or not depends on the nature of the > > target instrument; wind instruments work pretty well but piano say > > is harder to mimic in terms of playing style. > > That is excellent! I shall have to save up for that. My church band's former lead guitarist had a guitar MIDI setup with stomp box synthesizer. Got some great string sounds out of it. And it picked up bends and the whammy bar on his Strat. Jerry Garcia used a guitar MIDI setup (built into his custom-built guitars). So did Al Di Meola, running it into a Classic Mac that sat there on stage with him. Saw it in a solo performance of his televised ages ago. Apparently these things have been around a long time. David W. Jones gn...@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community http://dancingtreefrog.com -- Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/ gampad/clk?id=1444514301&iu=/ca-pub-7940484522588532 ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 5:46 AM, chuck elliot wrote: > Actually there are devices that do this. I have a Roland GI 10 > guitar/midi interface which is basically a real time pitch to midi > converter. It handles pitch bend too and does an impressive job > without too much delay and glitches. Paired with a midi sound module, > you can (in theory) play any instrument using the guitar as the input > device. Whether this is effective or not depends on the nature of the > target instrument; wind instruments work pretty well but piano say > is harder to mimic in terms of playing style. That is excellent! I shall have to save up for that. -- Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/ gampad/clk?id=1444514301&iu=/ca-pub-7940484522588532 ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
Thank you very much for the information! And I definitely won't be leaving Rosegarden any time soon. I'm really having fun with this. I'm feeling confident enough now that I'm going to print out the ugly notation for a reference, then start a new file and redo the whole thing now that I have a better idea of how to do it. I appreciate all the hard work you guys do. I also have one question due to something I was working on today: Is there a way to cause Rosegarden to trigger Hydrogen after it's done playing? They're both going through JACK, if that helps. On Sun, Apr 10, 2016 at 11:17 PM, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: > On 04/07/2016 07:00 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > >> I don't mind sending it here. > > I'm going to address the "Tie Notes at Barlines" thing not working > directly. By the look of things, this has been broken for a very long > time, and it looks to be a little adventure to sort this out. > > The place where you experienced the weirdness with the tied notes not > behaving as you expected is because you are trying to put two different > voices on the same staff. Finale, Sibelius, and MusE Score can't do > that either. > > In the top voice, you have: > > 2-4-4-4-4- > > In the bottom voice, you have: > > 2-4 4 4 4- > > The notes in the bottom voice can't be tied, because they change > pitches. This kind of figure is extremely common in guitar music with a > walking bass line. > > To get this kind of thing entered correctly, you have to put each voice > in a different segment, and overlap them. > > This tutorial is very old, but the gist of it is still applicable today: > > http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/tutorials/supplemental/piano/ > > We have some new features that are supposed to make the job easier, but > I just tried them, and I am not happy. I made a feature request for a > "Move selection to new layer" function that will automate a lot of the > hand work and simplify this process. > > Now I just need to go write the code! > > You may as well hang out until I work on these issues. > > -- > D. Michael McIntyre > > -- > Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager > Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of > your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and > reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/ > gampad/clk?id=1444514301&iu=/ca-pub-7940484522588532 > ___ > Rosegarden-user mailing list > Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user -- Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/ gampad/clk?id=1444514301&iu=/ca-pub-7940484522588532 ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On 04/07/2016 07:00 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > I don't mind sending it here. I'm going to address the "Tie Notes at Barlines" thing not working directly. By the look of things, this has been broken for a very long time, and it looks to be a little adventure to sort this out. The place where you experienced the weirdness with the tied notes not behaving as you expected is because you are trying to put two different voices on the same staff. Finale, Sibelius, and MusE Score can't do that either. In the top voice, you have: 2-4-4-4-4- In the bottom voice, you have: 2-4 4 4 4- The notes in the bottom voice can't be tied, because they change pitches. This kind of figure is extremely common in guitar music with a walking bass line. To get this kind of thing entered correctly, you have to put each voice in a different segment, and overlap them. This tutorial is very old, but the gist of it is still applicable today: http://www.rosegardenmusic.com/tutorials/supplemental/piano/ We have some new features that are supposed to make the job easier, but I just tried them, and I am not happy. I made a feature request for a "Move selection to new layer" function that will automate a lot of the hand work and simplify this process. Now I just need to go write the code! You may as well hang out until I work on these issues. -- D. Michael McIntyre -- Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/ gampad/clk?id=1444514301&iu=/ca-pub-7940484522588532 ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
Actually there are devices that do this. I have a Roland GI 10 guitar/midi interface which is basically a real time pitch to midi converter. It handles pitch bend too and does an impressive job without too much delay and glitches. Paired with a midi sound module, you can (in theory) play any instrument using the guitar as the input device. Whether this is effective or not depends on the nature of the target instrument; wind instruments work pretty well but piano say is harder to mimic in terms of playing style. Regards, CE. http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/1995_articles/jun95/rolandg110.html On Sun, 2016-04-10 at 06:20 -0400, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: > On 04/09/2016 06:22 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > > > Can it cover bends and vibrato on an electric guitar? > > > > Unless things have changed or I simply missed how to do it, these can > > be put in a score for electric guitar, but MIDI can't do it. Am I > > wrong? > > I'm not aware of anything that could generate the controllers for that > kind of thing automatically, but if you put enough care and attention > into it, you can probably simulate both techniques adequately using > pitch bend controllers. If nothing else, you can use MIDI to trigger > samples, therefore MIDI can reproduce literally anything. > > This kind of nuanced expression requires a great deal of hand work, but > MIDI can do it. > > Having done it both ways, I find it much easier to play the thing than > to fake it with MIDI. This is why I bought an electric guitar, actually. > > > Thank you very much. I'm in no hurry. Good luck dealing with the job. > > I lived through my career as a gasoline tanker driver. It is finished. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part -- Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/ gampad/clk?id=1444514301&iu=/ca-pub-7940484522588532___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On 04/09/2016 06:22 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > Can it cover bends and vibrato on an electric guitar? > > Unless things have changed or I simply missed how to do it, these can > be put in a score for electric guitar, but MIDI can't do it. Am I > wrong? I'm not aware of anything that could generate the controllers for that kind of thing automatically, but if you put enough care and attention into it, you can probably simulate both techniques adequately using pitch bend controllers. If nothing else, you can use MIDI to trigger samples, therefore MIDI can reproduce literally anything. This kind of nuanced expression requires a great deal of hand work, but MIDI can do it. Having done it both ways, I find it much easier to play the thing than to fake it with MIDI. This is why I bought an electric guitar, actually. > Thank you very much. I'm in no hurry. Good luck dealing with the job. I lived through my career as a gasoline tanker driver. It is finished. -- D. Michael McIntyre -- Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/ gampad/clk?id=1444514301&iu=/ca-pub-7940484522588532 ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
Going to try inline. Last time I tried it (a while back), Gmail didn't handle it all that well. On Sat, Apr 9, 2016 at 5:08 PM, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: > On 04/09/2016 03:13 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > > > >> Perhaps another limitation regarding scoring sequencer music are the > >> limitations of MIDI? Are there MIDI standard events for everything a > >> music score can convey? > >> I don't think there are MIDI standard events for everything, because I >> know you can't use a guitar or guitar-like instrument to input MIDI. > > After thinking it over for awhile, I concluded that MIDI can be bent to > cover virtually everything you can notate on a score, and I also > concluded that scores are limited in what they can convey. How do you > notate for a didgeridoo or an Acme siren whistle? How do you reproduce > either of these expressive monophonic instruments meaningfully with MIDI? Can it cover bends and vibrato on an electric guitar? That's what I remember it not doing well. I know a keyboard can use a pitch shifter, but I don't know if the score to show that is the same. An example of what I'm talking about: http://www.writing-music.com/images/product-032.jpg Unless things have changed or I simply missed how to do it, these can be put in a score for electric guitar, but MIDI can't do it. Am I wrong? > This puts me in the mood to compose a piece for siren whistle and > didgeridoo. I would LOVE to see/hear that, lol. > (I have your .rg file and will have an opportunity to go through it with > you tomorrow. I'll show you how to paint yourself out of those corners > you found yourself in. I had hoped to get there sooner, but they are > really putting the screws to me my last few days of work at this job. > They are bitter and angry that I am exiting stage left and moving on. > Two more loads, and then I am done with the fuel business.) Thank you very much. I'm in no hurry. Good luck dealing with the job. -- Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/ gampad/clk?id=1444514301&iu=/ca-pub-7940484522588532 ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On 04/09/2016 03:13 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote: >> Perhaps another limitation regarding scoring sequencer music are the >> limitations of MIDI? Are there MIDI standard events for everything a >> music score can convey? > I don't think there are MIDI standard events for everything, because I > know you can't use a guitar or guitar-like instrument to input MIDI. After thinking it over for awhile, I concluded that MIDI can be bent to cover virtually everything you can notate on a score, and I also concluded that scores are limited in what they can convey. How do you notate for a didgeridoo or an Acme siren whistle? How do you reproduce either of these expressive monophonic instruments meaningfully with MIDI? This puts me in the mood to compose a piece for siren whistle and didgeridoo. (I have your .rg file and will have an opportunity to go through it with you tomorrow. I'll show you how to paint yourself out of those corners you found yourself in. I had hoped to get there sooner, but they are really putting the screws to me my last few days of work at this job. They are bitter and angry that I am exiting stage left and moving on. Two more loads, and then I am done with the fuel business.) -- D. Michael McIntyre -- Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/ gampad/clk?id=1444514301&iu=/ca-pub-7940484522588532 ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
I don't think there are MIDI standard events for everything, because I know you can't use a guitar or guitar-like instrument to input MIDI. Well, I saw a machine a long time ago, but you couldn't play the guitar like a guitar, if that makes sense. For instance, no bends. On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 11:49 PM, david wrote: > That is a great analogy. > > I would also say that music notation is fundamentally visual, not audio > or sequential. Musicians reading a score aren't necessarily going "note > by note" anymore than the typical person reading text reads "letter by > letter". I guess sequencers aren't quite up to the human visual system's > powerful processing! > > Perhaps another limitation regarding scoring sequencer music are the > limitations of MIDI? Are there MIDI standard events for everything a > music score can convey? > > On 04/08/2016 06:30 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote: >> That makes a lot of sense. >> >> On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Lorenzo Sutton >> wrote: >>> As I already said this is really a bit of a conundrum >>> I think a good analogy would be imagine writing in a word processor >>> (e.g. Writer) or typesetting system (e.g. Latex) VS. trying to feed what >>> you wrote to a Text To Speech (TTS) engine/system able of rendering the >>> text you write as if it were a professional actress. >>> >>> Feed plain text to a text to speech and it will sound like... well text >>> to speech, if you want to add articulations etc. you have to 'break' the >>> plain text with some sort of semantics (markup), or invest a lot in some >>> sort of interpretation engine which can also do linguistic analysis. >>> >>> That kind of thing gets magnitudes more complicated with music.. >>> >>> But after all, notation is really made for humans, while the matrix >>> editor (or even the event list editor) is much more similar (if still >>> high-level) to what you would feed to a machine (by the way the matrix >>> editor is called "piano roll" in some applications for a reason, so >>> 'machine' is not necessarily a computer). >>> >>> Well well always very interesting discussions on the RG mailing list :) >>> >>> On 08/04/2016 15:19, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: On 04/07/2016 07:04 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > If I might ask, because I've been wondering about this, what makes > doing notation so difficult? I think the root of it is because notation is a very analog, infinitely-variable kind of thing that is difficult to represent and manipulate in an orderly digital world. I have probably over 1,000 pages of commercially published sheet music for various instruments sitting around in my house, and it probably wouldn't take me 30 seconds to find a score that Rosegarden can't be used to reproduce. It would probably take me more on the order of 30 minutes to find a score that Rosegarden CAN reproduce exactly like the original, with no compromises. I would probably have to pull that out of some basic band method book too. Notation is difficult, because of the amount of effort that would be required to address any random one of a hundred different scenarios I could come up with that Rosegarden doesn't know how to handle. Kneed beams. How the hell would we ever make kneed beams work without seriously rethinking everything from the ground up? I have utterly no idea. Anacrusis is something I've banged on off and on for years, and we still can't really handle it probably, or get it exported to LilyPond properly. Close, but not really a cigar. I have a trumpet method book with 1,000 pages of stuff Rosegarden can't handle. It's basic, common stuff that's hard to work out how to achieve in a notation editor grafted onto a MIDI sequencer. After 15 years of this, I could go on for days, Silas. Doing notation on top of a sequencer is borderline insanity, but it's a crazy kind of fun to challenge the limits of what is possible, even if it isn't smart or practical. The true notation editors like MusE Score and Finale (they work directly with notes and lines and staffs instead of MIDI) have an easier time with a great many of these problems, but they face their own nightmares. Those things are especially weak when it comes to rendering imperfect human performances on a page. I've seen absolutely nothing on any platform in close to 30 years of computer music that could produce a playable sheet of music without a considerable amount of fiddling around to tweak all the glitches. I'm pretty sure if that magic button could be written, it would be on the market by now, and would probably cost $10,000 a copy. > > > -- > David W. Jones > gn...@hawaii.rr.com > authenticity, honesty, community > http://dancingtreefrog.com > > -
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
They sure have come a long way. I remember that, as geeky as I was, I found everything about MIDI too daunting to even make the attempt. These days, it's so much simpler and I'm really having fun with it. I started work on another piece and it's going much smoother this time. Of course, it's orchestral strings, so there are no chords. Still, I think I could probably even redo the first one better now. I think I might just repair it if I can, though. On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 4:44 PM, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: > On 04/08/2016 12:29 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > >> Not that I think we should abandon the old way by any means, but maybe >> there ought to be a notation 2.0, completely reworked to be an easy >> learning curve for those who already know the old notation, but make >> more sense to coding. I wonder if that's even possible. > > There are all kinds of strange little projects out there already, but > nothing ever gains enough traction to displace traditional notation. > For that matter, I think and deal with western traditional notation > exclusively, but there are other traditions that are of a similar age. > > It reminds me of this cartoon about standards: > > https://xkcd.com/927/ > > Reading back over my previous comments, I'd like to point out that all > of those pages and pages of things Rosegarden can't render always come > down to just a bar here and a bar there. I've worked out a lot of ways > to fake my way around things like this over the years, and usually get > something done, but not without compromises. Even LilyPond, vast and > venerable as it is, still requires compromises sometimes. People could > engrave literally anything on a music plate back in the day, and they did! > >> You know, I say that I'm completely new to composing on a computer, >> but that's not *quite* true. In the days of DOS, I remember creating a >> BASIC file that would play some notes using computer beeps, lol. I >> remember doing Slayer's "War Ensemble" that way and it was hilarious. >> Just a random thought. > > The first program I used to compose computer music had four voices of > polyphony, and no real control over what the voices sounded like. I > typed it out of a Rainbow magazine, and it took hours. You composed > melodies on a vertical grid, by typing pitches at the right time > intervals. It was just like a MOD tracker in that respect, but way > before MOD files existed. > > Things have come a long way! > -- > D. Michael McIntyre > > -- > Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager > Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of > your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and > reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/ > gampad/clk?id=1444514301&iu=/ca-pub-7940484522588532 > ___ > Rosegarden-user mailing list > Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user -- Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/ gampad/clk?id=1444514301&iu=/ca-pub-7940484522588532 ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
That is a great analogy. I would also say that music notation is fundamentally visual, not audio or sequential. Musicians reading a score aren't necessarily going "note by note" anymore than the typical person reading text reads "letter by letter". I guess sequencers aren't quite up to the human visual system's powerful processing! Perhaps another limitation regarding scoring sequencer music are the limitations of MIDI? Are there MIDI standard events for everything a music score can convey? On 04/08/2016 06:30 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > That makes a lot of sense. > > On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Lorenzo Sutton > wrote: >> As I already said this is really a bit of a conundrum >> I think a good analogy would be imagine writing in a word processor >> (e.g. Writer) or typesetting system (e.g. Latex) VS. trying to feed what >> you wrote to a Text To Speech (TTS) engine/system able of rendering the >> text you write as if it were a professional actress. >> >> Feed plain text to a text to speech and it will sound like... well text >> to speech, if you want to add articulations etc. you have to 'break' the >> plain text with some sort of semantics (markup), or invest a lot in some >> sort of interpretation engine which can also do linguistic analysis. >> >> That kind of thing gets magnitudes more complicated with music.. >> >> But after all, notation is really made for humans, while the matrix >> editor (or even the event list editor) is much more similar (if still >> high-level) to what you would feed to a machine (by the way the matrix >> editor is called "piano roll" in some applications for a reason, so >> 'machine' is not necessarily a computer). >> >> Well well always very interesting discussions on the RG mailing list :) >> >> On 08/04/2016 15:19, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: >>> On 04/07/2016 07:04 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote: >>> If I might ask, because I've been wondering about this, what makes doing notation so difficult? >>> >>> I think the root of it is because notation is a very analog, >>> infinitely-variable kind of thing that is difficult to represent and >>> manipulate in an orderly digital world. >>> >>> I have probably over 1,000 pages of commercially published sheet music >>> for various instruments sitting around in my house, and it probably >>> wouldn't take me 30 seconds to find a score that Rosegarden can't be >>> used to reproduce. It would probably take me more on the order of 30 >>> minutes to find a score that Rosegarden CAN reproduce exactly like the >>> original, with no compromises. I would probably have to pull that out >>> of some basic band method book too. >>> >>> Notation is difficult, because of the amount of effort that would be >>> required to address any random one of a hundred different scenarios I >>> could come up with that Rosegarden doesn't know how to handle. >>> >>> Kneed beams. How the hell would we ever make kneed beams work without >>> seriously rethinking everything from the ground up? I have utterly no idea. >>> >>> Anacrusis is something I've banged on off and on for years, and we still >>> can't really handle it probably, or get it exported to LilyPond >>> properly. Close, but not really a cigar. I have a trumpet method book >>> with 1,000 pages of stuff Rosegarden can't handle. It's basic, common >>> stuff that's hard to work out how to achieve in a notation editor >>> grafted onto a MIDI sequencer. >>> >>> After 15 years of this, I could go on for days, Silas. Doing notation >>> on top of a sequencer is borderline insanity, but it's a crazy kind of >>> fun to challenge the limits of what is possible, even if it isn't smart >>> or practical. >>> >>> The true notation editors like MusE Score and Finale (they work directly >>> with notes and lines and staffs instead of MIDI) have an easier time >>> with a great many of these problems, but they face their own nightmares. >>> Those things are especially weak when it comes to rendering imperfect >>> human performances on a page. I've seen absolutely nothing on any >>> platform in close to 30 years of computer music that could produce a >>> playable sheet of music without a considerable amount of fiddling around >>> to tweak all the glitches. >>> >>> I'm pretty sure if that magic button could be written, it would be on >>> the market by now, and would probably cost $10,000 a copy. -- David W. Jones gn...@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community http://dancingtreefrog.com -- Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/ gampad/clk?id=1444514301&iu=/ca-pub-7940484522588532 ___ Rosegarden-user mailing l
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On 04/08/2016 12:29 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > Not that I think we should abandon the old way by any means, but maybe > there ought to be a notation 2.0, completely reworked to be an easy > learning curve for those who already know the old notation, but make > more sense to coding. I wonder if that's even possible. There are all kinds of strange little projects out there already, but nothing ever gains enough traction to displace traditional notation. For that matter, I think and deal with western traditional notation exclusively, but there are other traditions that are of a similar age. It reminds me of this cartoon about standards: https://xkcd.com/927/ Reading back over my previous comments, I'd like to point out that all of those pages and pages of things Rosegarden can't render always come down to just a bar here and a bar there. I've worked out a lot of ways to fake my way around things like this over the years, and usually get something done, but not without compromises. Even LilyPond, vast and venerable as it is, still requires compromises sometimes. People could engrave literally anything on a music plate back in the day, and they did! > You know, I say that I'm completely new to composing on a computer, > but that's not *quite* true. In the days of DOS, I remember creating a > BASIC file that would play some notes using computer beeps, lol. I > remember doing Slayer's "War Ensemble" that way and it was hilarious. > Just a random thought. The first program I used to compose computer music had four voices of polyphony, and no real control over what the voices sounded like. I typed it out of a Rainbow magazine, and it took hours. You composed melodies on a vertical grid, by typing pitches at the right time intervals. It was just like a MOD tracker in that respect, but way before MOD files existed. Things have come a long way! -- D. Michael McIntyre -- Find and fix application performance issues faster with Applications Manager Applications Manager provides deep performance insights into multiple tiers of your business applications. It resolves application problems quickly and reduces your MTTR. Get your free trial! http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/ gampad/clk?id=1444514301&iu=/ca-pub-7940484522588532 ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
That makes a lot of sense. On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Lorenzo Sutton wrote: > As I already said this is really a bit of a conundrum > I think a good analogy would be imagine writing in a word processor > (e.g. Writer) or typesetting system (e.g. Latex) VS. trying to feed what > you wrote to a Text To Speech (TTS) engine/system able of rendering the > text you write as if it were a professional actress. > > Feed plain text to a text to speech and it will sound like... well text > to speech, if you want to add articulations etc. you have to 'break' the > plain text with some sort of semantics (markup), or invest a lot in some > sort of interpretation engine which can also do linguistic analysis. > > That kind of thing gets magnitudes more complicated with music.. > > But after all, notation is really made for humans, while the matrix > editor (or even the event list editor) is much more similar (if still > high-level) to what you would feed to a machine (by the way the matrix > editor is called "piano roll" in some applications for a reason, so > 'machine' is not necessarily a computer). > > Well well always very interesting discussions on the RG mailing list :) > > On 08/04/2016 15:19, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: >> On 04/07/2016 07:04 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote: >> >>> If I might ask, because I've been wondering about this, what makes >>> doing notation so difficult? >> >> I think the root of it is because notation is a very analog, >> infinitely-variable kind of thing that is difficult to represent and >> manipulate in an orderly digital world. >> >> I have probably over 1,000 pages of commercially published sheet music >> for various instruments sitting around in my house, and it probably >> wouldn't take me 30 seconds to find a score that Rosegarden can't be >> used to reproduce. It would probably take me more on the order of 30 >> minutes to find a score that Rosegarden CAN reproduce exactly like the >> original, with no compromises. I would probably have to pull that out >> of some basic band method book too. >> >> Notation is difficult, because of the amount of effort that would be >> required to address any random one of a hundred different scenarios I >> could come up with that Rosegarden doesn't know how to handle. >> >> Kneed beams. How the hell would we ever make kneed beams work without >> seriously rethinking everything from the ground up? I have utterly no idea. >> >> Anacrusis is something I've banged on off and on for years, and we still >> can't really handle it probably, or get it exported to LilyPond >> properly. Close, but not really a cigar. I have a trumpet method book >> with 1,000 pages of stuff Rosegarden can't handle. It's basic, common >> stuff that's hard to work out how to achieve in a notation editor >> grafted onto a MIDI sequencer. >> >> After 15 years of this, I could go on for days, Silas. Doing notation >> on top of a sequencer is borderline insanity, but it's a crazy kind of >> fun to challenge the limits of what is possible, even if it isn't smart >> or practical. >> >> The true notation editors like MusE Score and Finale (they work directly >> with notes and lines and staffs instead of MIDI) have an easier time >> with a great many of these problems, but they face their own nightmares. >>Those things are especially weak when it comes to rendering imperfect >> human performances on a page. I've seen absolutely nothing on any >> platform in close to 30 years of computer music that could produce a >> playable sheet of music without a considerable amount of fiddling around >> to tweak all the glitches. >> >> I'm pretty sure if that magic button could be written, it would be on >> the market by now, and would probably cost $10,000 a copy. >> > > -- > ___ > Rosegarden-user mailing list > Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
I can definitely believe it, I just didn't see it before you explained it. It makes sense. Not that I think we should abandon the old way by any means, but maybe there ought to be a notation 2.0, completely reworked to be an easy learning curve for those who already know the old notation, but make more sense to coding. I wonder if that's even possible. You know, I say that I'm completely new to composing on a computer, but that's not *quite* true. In the days of DOS, I remember creating a BASIC file that would play some notes using computer beeps, lol. I remember doing Slayer's "War Ensemble" that way and it was hilarious. Just a random thought. On Fri, Apr 8, 2016 at 8:19 AM, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: > On 04/07/2016 07:04 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > >> If I might ask, because I've been wondering about this, what makes >> doing notation so difficult? > > I think the root of it is because notation is a very analog, > infinitely-variable kind of thing that is difficult to represent and > manipulate in an orderly digital world. > > I have probably over 1,000 pages of commercially published sheet music > for various instruments sitting around in my house, and it probably > wouldn't take me 30 seconds to find a score that Rosegarden can't be > used to reproduce. It would probably take me more on the order of 30 > minutes to find a score that Rosegarden CAN reproduce exactly like the > original, with no compromises. I would probably have to pull that out > of some basic band method book too. > > Notation is difficult, because of the amount of effort that would be > required to address any random one of a hundred different scenarios I > could come up with that Rosegarden doesn't know how to handle. > > Kneed beams. How the hell would we ever make kneed beams work without > seriously rethinking everything from the ground up? I have utterly no idea. > > Anacrusis is something I've banged on off and on for years, and we still > can't really handle it probably, or get it exported to LilyPond > properly. Close, but not really a cigar. I have a trumpet method book > with 1,000 pages of stuff Rosegarden can't handle. It's basic, common > stuff that's hard to work out how to achieve in a notation editor > grafted onto a MIDI sequencer. > > After 15 years of this, I could go on for days, Silas. Doing notation > on top of a sequencer is borderline insanity, but it's a crazy kind of > fun to challenge the limits of what is possible, even if it isn't smart > or practical. > > The true notation editors like MusE Score and Finale (they work directly > with notes and lines and staffs instead of MIDI) have an easier time > with a great many of these problems, but they face their own nightmares. > Those things are especially weak when it comes to rendering imperfect > human performances on a page. I've seen absolutely nothing on any > platform in close to 30 years of computer music that could produce a > playable sheet of music without a considerable amount of fiddling around > to tweak all the glitches. > > I'm pretty sure if that magic button could be written, it would be on > the market by now, and would probably cost $10,000 a copy. > > -- > D. Michael McIntyre > > -- > ___ > Rosegarden-user mailing list > Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
As I already said this is really a bit of a conundrum I think a good analogy would be imagine writing in a word processor (e.g. Writer) or typesetting system (e.g. Latex) VS. trying to feed what you wrote to a Text To Speech (TTS) engine/system able of rendering the text you write as if it were a professional actress. Feed plain text to a text to speech and it will sound like... well text to speech, if you want to add articulations etc. you have to 'break' the plain text with some sort of semantics (markup), or invest a lot in some sort of interpretation engine which can also do linguistic analysis. That kind of thing gets magnitudes more complicated with music.. But after all, notation is really made for humans, while the matrix editor (or even the event list editor) is much more similar (if still high-level) to what you would feed to a machine (by the way the matrix editor is called "piano roll" in some applications for a reason, so 'machine' is not necessarily a computer). Well well always very interesting discussions on the RG mailing list :) On 08/04/2016 15:19, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: > On 04/07/2016 07:04 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > >> If I might ask, because I've been wondering about this, what makes >> doing notation so difficult? > > I think the root of it is because notation is a very analog, > infinitely-variable kind of thing that is difficult to represent and > manipulate in an orderly digital world. > > I have probably over 1,000 pages of commercially published sheet music > for various instruments sitting around in my house, and it probably > wouldn't take me 30 seconds to find a score that Rosegarden can't be > used to reproduce. It would probably take me more on the order of 30 > minutes to find a score that Rosegarden CAN reproduce exactly like the > original, with no compromises. I would probably have to pull that out > of some basic band method book too. > > Notation is difficult, because of the amount of effort that would be > required to address any random one of a hundred different scenarios I > could come up with that Rosegarden doesn't know how to handle. > > Kneed beams. How the hell would we ever make kneed beams work without > seriously rethinking everything from the ground up? I have utterly no idea. > > Anacrusis is something I've banged on off and on for years, and we still > can't really handle it probably, or get it exported to LilyPond > properly. Close, but not really a cigar. I have a trumpet method book > with 1,000 pages of stuff Rosegarden can't handle. It's basic, common > stuff that's hard to work out how to achieve in a notation editor > grafted onto a MIDI sequencer. > > After 15 years of this, I could go on for days, Silas. Doing notation > on top of a sequencer is borderline insanity, but it's a crazy kind of > fun to challenge the limits of what is possible, even if it isn't smart > or practical. > > The true notation editors like MusE Score and Finale (they work directly > with notes and lines and staffs instead of MIDI) have an easier time > with a great many of these problems, but they face their own nightmares. >Those things are especially weak when it comes to rendering imperfect > human performances on a page. I've seen absolutely nothing on any > platform in close to 30 years of computer music that could produce a > playable sheet of music without a considerable amount of fiddling around > to tweak all the glitches. > > I'm pretty sure if that magic button could be written, it would be on > the market by now, and would probably cost $10,000 a copy. > -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On 04/07/2016 07:04 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > If I might ask, because I've been wondering about this, what makes > doing notation so difficult? I think the root of it is because notation is a very analog, infinitely-variable kind of thing that is difficult to represent and manipulate in an orderly digital world. I have probably over 1,000 pages of commercially published sheet music for various instruments sitting around in my house, and it probably wouldn't take me 30 seconds to find a score that Rosegarden can't be used to reproduce. It would probably take me more on the order of 30 minutes to find a score that Rosegarden CAN reproduce exactly like the original, with no compromises. I would probably have to pull that out of some basic band method book too. Notation is difficult, because of the amount of effort that would be required to address any random one of a hundred different scenarios I could come up with that Rosegarden doesn't know how to handle. Kneed beams. How the hell would we ever make kneed beams work without seriously rethinking everything from the ground up? I have utterly no idea. Anacrusis is something I've banged on off and on for years, and we still can't really handle it probably, or get it exported to LilyPond properly. Close, but not really a cigar. I have a trumpet method book with 1,000 pages of stuff Rosegarden can't handle. It's basic, common stuff that's hard to work out how to achieve in a notation editor grafted onto a MIDI sequencer. After 15 years of this, I could go on for days, Silas. Doing notation on top of a sequencer is borderline insanity, but it's a crazy kind of fun to challenge the limits of what is possible, even if it isn't smart or practical. The true notation editors like MusE Score and Finale (they work directly with notes and lines and staffs instead of MIDI) have an easier time with a great many of these problems, but they face their own nightmares. Those things are especially weak when it comes to rendering imperfect human performances on a page. I've seen absolutely nothing on any platform in close to 30 years of computer music that could produce a playable sheet of music without a considerable amount of fiddling around to tweak all the glitches. I'm pretty sure if that magic button could be written, it would be on the market by now, and would probably cost $10,000 a copy. -- D. Michael McIntyre -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On 04/07/2016 07:00 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > I don't mind sending it here. Got it, and took a quick look. I need to take a more detailed look to figure out what's going on here, and I will have to come back to this tomorrow. Everything is fixable though. No worries. -- D. Michael McIntyre -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
>>> My understanding of notation is that a whole note is a whole measure. Only in 4/4 or 2/2 time that is. I would like to add that a whole REST can mean a whole measure, even if time is not 4/4, if the rest is placed in the middle of an otherwise empty bar! I have not tried if RG knows this. -- MT -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On 07/04/2016 21:15, Silas Mortimer wrote: > I should start doing that. > > Anyway, as I said before, I had to make the time signature 2/4, which > would make a whole note of four beats span two measures. I know it's > weird, but I started composing the piece on guitar and wound up having > trouble finding the right signature before finding that 2/4 worked > really well. Though now that I have a good portion of it down, I > should be able to come up with a better signature. Obviously I don't know the piece, but if you are using whole (semibreve - 4/4) notes, why not switch to 4/4? While there *is* a difference between 2/4 and 4/4 the fact you are using whole notes makes me guess you are actually "thinking in fours". Anyway, as David says notation-wise if are in 2/4 and want a note to last 4/4 what you write is two tied minim notes (2/4). > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 1:31 PM, David Jones wrote: >> Hmmm, I use only the notation editor. My understanding of notation is that a >> whole note is a whole measure. So if I have a note to be held longer than a >> measure (say 3), I put a whole note in each measure and tie them together. >> Not make a dotted whole note to get a note that runs longer than a measure. >> >> Just my free contribution. >> >> David W. Jones >> gn...@hawaii.rr.com >> authenticity, honesty, community >> http://dancingtreefrog.comOn Apr 7, 2016 02:37, Lorenzo Sutton >> wrote: >>> >>> Hi! >>> >>> On 07/04/2016 00:27, Silas Mortimer wrote: >>> >>> [...] >>> One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again, it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like it's tied, but it's not shown that way. >>> >>> I think that's expected and software can't really help you there. >>> >>> I guess this is the basic concept and conundrum of sequencer which (like >>> rosegarden) also support notation: if the notation is 'perfect' from a >>> visual/typesetting point of view it will sound mechanical from a >>> performance point of view. The matrix editor (aka Piano Roll in some >>> software) enables you to tweak notes so that e.g. they result more >>> realistic but that will inevitably screw notation. >>> >>> Really, it's a conundrum in music itself. No one performs exactly what >>> is written on a score (some contemporary music can be an exception), so >>> imagine writing down on a score *exactly* what a performer is playing... >>> >>> Rosegarden actually does have some 'intelligence' when it comes to >>> interpreting notation (e.g. dynamics), but it cannot 'imagine' what you >>> would like especially in terms of note onsets and lengths. >>> >>> My recommendation would be to: >>> a.) use notation for: >>> 1. Inputting notes when you are familiar or more comfortable with >>> traditional notation. >>> 2. Want to concentrate on the notation aspects of your piece, e.g. >>> because you want to eventually publish it. >>> >>> b.) Use the matrix editor when: >>> 1. You want to concentrate on how your piece actually sounds. >>> 2. You become familiar enough with the matrix paradigm to be able to >>> input notes directly there. >>> 3. Adjust at the fine level not onsets, durations, velocities etc. >>> >>> To conclude, take into account that some sequencers simply do not >>> provide notation, so think of Rosegarden as a sequencer with a (very >>> advanced compared to many sequencers) support for notation ;) >>> >>> Hope this helps. >>> Lorenzo. >>> >>> -- >>> ___ >>> Rosegarden-user mailing list >>> Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user >> -- >> ___ >> Rosegarden-user mailing list >> Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user > > -- > ___ > Rosegarden-user mailing list > Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user > -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforg
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On 07/04/2016 17:55, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: > On 04/07/2016 10:44 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > >> do that and then use shortcuts in LilyPond to "clean it up" visually? >> To be specific, what I'm asking is if LilyPond has ways of easily >> fixing problems like my first example. > > The LilyPond export engine is very much GIGO. Garbage in, garbage out. >If the notation is a mess in Rosegarden, it will be even worse in > LilyPond. Still I did do some pretty crazy piano notation in RG which I then exported and hacked in Lilypond. The great advantage of that was that having worked in Rosegarden I could also have a very nice rendering of the piano part.. So, as said I consider RG notation support (including Lilypond export) way above average compared to many (even commercial) sequencers... ;) -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
I was thinking so much about the attachment that I forgot to say thank you. And that "Tie Notes at Bar Lines" was what I was looking for, but I'm glad to know that it might not work, lol. If I might ask, because I've been wondering about this, what makes doing notation so difficult? I know, of course, that there are many rules to notation regardless of how you do it, but it's so mathematical that I just kind of assumed that this would be one of the most trivial parts. Boy, was I wrong, lol. So yeah, what makes it so hard? On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 4:18 PM, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: > On 04/07/2016 07:19 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > >> Anyway, here's one example: >> >> >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8p6zThp4KIdN2NyUXBRWHkxUHc/view?usp=sharing > > > Red bar lines are Rosegarden's way of telling you that something is wrong. > The measure does not count correctly, and this typically happens because it > is too full. > > The automagic tool that's supposed to fix this kind of thing is Adjust -> > Notes... -> Tie Notes at Bar Lines. > > I constructed a test example, and of course it isn't working at all! I'm not > sure if that's a bug or my rusty understanding. > > So the next easiest way to go at this is to select the whole note and use > Ctrl+2 to convert it into a half note. Add another half note, select the > pair, and tie them manually. (You can also use Ctrl+Alt+2 to convert the > whole note into a single half note with a performance duration of a whole > note. The note will sound for two full measures of 2/4 but it will only be > written as one half note. It may not be a good idea to have such an extreme > difference between notation duration and performance duration, but it's an > option.) > > If in doubt, erasing a bit of stuff and drawing that bit over again will get > you around a lot of glitches. Some glitches are your fault, some glitches > are our fault. Every time I get frustrated and think Rosegarden is a > hopeless piece of crap, I go play with Sibelius or Finale. Commercial > software with years on us and presumably millions of dollars invested in > development is only marginally better, and Rosegarden was built by rank > amateurs. > >> Here's one more: >> >> >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8p6zThp4KIdSmZOdUx3eWR4YVU/view?usp=sharing > > > When notes are circled like that, you can interpret that to mean "there is > something awfully weird here. To do anything to resolve this one, I need > the file you're working on. (Send it directly to me if you're shy.) Then I > can look at what's what and sort it out. I'll walk you through how I did > what. > > -- > D. Michael McIntyre -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
I don't mind sending it here. On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 4:18 PM, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: > On 04/07/2016 07:19 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > >> Anyway, here's one example: >> >> >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8p6zThp4KIdN2NyUXBRWHkxUHc/view?usp=sharing > > > Red bar lines are Rosegarden's way of telling you that something is wrong. > The measure does not count correctly, and this typically happens because it > is too full. > > The automagic tool that's supposed to fix this kind of thing is Adjust -> > Notes... -> Tie Notes at Bar Lines. > > I constructed a test example, and of course it isn't working at all! I'm not > sure if that's a bug or my rusty understanding. > > So the next easiest way to go at this is to select the whole note and use > Ctrl+2 to convert it into a half note. Add another half note, select the > pair, and tie them manually. (You can also use Ctrl+Alt+2 to convert the > whole note into a single half note with a performance duration of a whole > note. The note will sound for two full measures of 2/4 but it will only be > written as one half note. It may not be a good idea to have such an extreme > difference between notation duration and performance duration, but it's an > option.) > > If in doubt, erasing a bit of stuff and drawing that bit over again will get > you around a lot of glitches. Some glitches are your fault, some glitches > are our fault. Every time I get frustrated and think Rosegarden is a > hopeless piece of crap, I go play with Sibelius or Finale. Commercial > software with years on us and presumably millions of dollars invested in > development is only marginally better, and Rosegarden was built by rank > amateurs. > >> Here's one more: >> >> >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8p6zThp4KIdSmZOdUx3eWR4YVU/view?usp=sharing > > > When notes are circled like that, you can interpret that to mean "there is > something awfully weird here. To do anything to resolve this one, I need > the file you're working on. (Send it directly to me if you're shy.) Then I > can look at what's what and sort it out. I'll walk you through how I did > what. > > -- > D. Michael McIntyre Unnamed.rg Description: application/rosegarden-composition -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On 04/07/2016 07:19 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > Anyway, here's one example: > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8p6zThp4KIdN2NyUXBRWHkxUHc/view?usp=sharing Red bar lines are Rosegarden's way of telling you that something is wrong. The measure does not count correctly, and this typically happens because it is too full. The automagic tool that's supposed to fix this kind of thing is Adjust -> Notes... -> Tie Notes at Bar Lines. I constructed a test example, and of course it isn't working at all! I'm not sure if that's a bug or my rusty understanding. So the next easiest way to go at this is to select the whole note and use Ctrl+2 to convert it into a half note. Add another half note, select the pair, and tie them manually. (You can also use Ctrl+Alt+2 to convert the whole note into a single half note with a performance duration of a whole note. The note will sound for two full measures of 2/4 but it will only be written as one half note. It may not be a good idea to have such an extreme difference between notation duration and performance duration, but it's an option.) If in doubt, erasing a bit of stuff and drawing that bit over again will get you around a lot of glitches. Some glitches are your fault, some glitches are our fault. Every time I get frustrated and think Rosegarden is a hopeless piece of crap, I go play with Sibelius or Finale. Commercial software with years on us and presumably millions of dollars invested in development is only marginally better, and Rosegarden was built by rank amateurs. > Here's one more: > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8p6zThp4KIdSmZOdUx3eWR4YVU/view?usp=sharing When notes are circled like that, you can interpret that to mean "there is something awfully weird here. To do anything to resolve this one, I need the file you're working on. (Send it directly to me if you're shy.) Then I can look at what's what and sort it out. I'll walk you through how I did what. -- D. Michael McIntyre -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
I should start doing that. Anyway, as I said before, I had to make the time signature 2/4, which would make a whole note of four beats span two measures. I know it's weird, but I started composing the piece on guitar and wound up having trouble finding the right signature before finding that 2/4 worked really well. Though now that I have a good portion of it down, I should be able to come up with a better signature. On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 1:31 PM, David Jones wrote: > Hmmm, I use only the notation editor. My understanding of notation is that a > whole note is a whole measure. So if I have a note to be held longer than a > measure (say 3), I put a whole note in each measure and tie them together. > Not make a dotted whole note to get a note that runs longer than a measure. > > Just my free contribution. > > David W. Jones > gn...@hawaii.rr.com > authenticity, honesty, community > http://dancingtreefrog.comOn Apr 7, 2016 02:37, Lorenzo Sutton > wrote: >> >> Hi! >> >> On 07/04/2016 00:27, Silas Mortimer wrote: >> >> [...] >> >> > One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out >> > longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after >> > it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I >> > could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I >> > did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes >> > sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again, >> > it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like >> > it's tied, but it's not shown that way. >> >> I think that's expected and software can't really help you there. >> >> I guess this is the basic concept and conundrum of sequencer which (like >> rosegarden) also support notation: if the notation is 'perfect' from a >> visual/typesetting point of view it will sound mechanical from a >> performance point of view. The matrix editor (aka Piano Roll in some >> software) enables you to tweak notes so that e.g. they result more >> realistic but that will inevitably screw notation. >> >> Really, it's a conundrum in music itself. No one performs exactly what >> is written on a score (some contemporary music can be an exception), so >> imagine writing down on a score *exactly* what a performer is playing... >> >> Rosegarden actually does have some 'intelligence' when it comes to >> interpreting notation (e.g. dynamics), but it cannot 'imagine' what you >> would like especially in terms of note onsets and lengths. >> >> My recommendation would be to: >> a.) use notation for: >> 1. Inputting notes when you are familiar or more comfortable with >> traditional notation. >> 2. Want to concentrate on the notation aspects of your piece, e.g. >> because you want to eventually publish it. >> >> b.) Use the matrix editor when: >> 1. You want to concentrate on how your piece actually sounds. >> 2. You become familiar enough with the matrix paradigm to be able to >> input notes directly there. >> 3. Adjust at the fine level not onsets, durations, velocities etc. >> >> To conclude, take into account that some sequencers simply do not >> provide notation, so think of Rosegarden as a sequencer with a (very >> advanced compared to many sequencers) support for notation ;) >> >> Hope this helps. >> Lorenzo. >> >> -- >> ___ >> Rosegarden-user mailing list >> Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user > -- > ___ > Rosegarden-user mailing list > Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
Hmmm, I use only the notation editor. My understanding of notation is that a whole note is a whole measure. So if I have a note to be held longer than a measure (say 3), I put a whole note in each measure and tie them together. Not make a dotted whole note to get a note that runs longer than a measure. Just my free contribution. David W. Jones gn...@hawaii.rr.com authenticity, honesty, community http://dancingtreefrog.comOn Apr 7, 2016 02:37, Lorenzo Sutton wrote: > > Hi! > > On 07/04/2016 00:27, Silas Mortimer wrote: > > [...] > > > One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out > > longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after > > it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I > > could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I > > did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes > > sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again, > > it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like > > it's tied, but it's not shown that way. > > I think that's expected and software can't really help you there. > > I guess this is the basic concept and conundrum of sequencer which (like > rosegarden) also support notation: if the notation is 'perfect' from a > visual/typesetting point of view it will sound mechanical from a > performance point of view. The matrix editor (aka Piano Roll in some > software) enables you to tweak notes so that e.g. they result more > realistic but that will inevitably screw notation. > > Really, it's a conundrum in music itself. No one performs exactly what > is written on a score (some contemporary music can be an exception), so > imagine writing down on a score *exactly* what a performer is playing... > > Rosegarden actually does have some 'intelligence' when it comes to > interpreting notation (e.g. dynamics), but it cannot 'imagine' what you > would like especially in terms of note onsets and lengths. > > My recommendation would be to: > a.) use notation for: > 1. Inputting notes when you are familiar or more comfortable with > traditional notation. > 2. Want to concentrate on the notation aspects of your piece, e.g. > because you want to eventually publish it. > > b.) Use the matrix editor when: > 1. You want to concentrate on how your piece actually sounds. > 2. You become familiar enough with the matrix paradigm to be able to > input notes directly there. > 3. Adjust at the fine level not onsets, durations, velocities etc. > > To conclude, take into account that some sequencers simply do not > provide notation, so think of Rosegarden as a sequencer with a (very > advanced compared to many sequencers) support for notation ;) > > Hope this helps. > Lorenzo. > > -- > > ___ > Rosegarden-user mailing list > Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
I appreciate it. And it sounds like the game is good, lol. On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 10:55 AM, D. Michael McIntyre wrote: > On 04/07/2016 10:44 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > >> do that and then use shortcuts in LilyPond to "clean it up" visually? >> To be specific, what I'm asking is if LilyPond has ways of easily >> fixing problems like my first example. > > The LilyPond export engine is very much GIGO. Garbage in, garbage out. > If the notation is a mess in Rosegarden, it will be even worse in > LilyPond. > > I started playing a game and stayed up way past my bedtime, > so I don't have time to look at your examples just now. I recognize the > kind of growing pains you are experiencing, and when I get time to > reply, I should be able to help you. Just hang in there, and I'll get > back to you within 24 hours. > -- > D. Michael McIntyre > > -- > ___ > Rosegarden-user mailing list > Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
I did it again. Last time, Lorenzo, I promise. So what I said: Well, here's the problem: When I initially put the chord in, I made the notes dotted whole notes, which made them span three measures. And, now that I'm suddenly remembering what happened there, I determined that a note BEFORE this chord needed to be longer, which meant that I had to somehow move three measures worth of chord over to start at the next measure. I realize that you can do this in the matrix editor (in fact, that's the instance that drove me to look at the matrix editor in the first place), but I was hoping to keep the notation up with the piece as I went along, so I tried to do what I could with the notation and wound up with what you see in the picture. But THEN, something happened... I think maybe I had the erase tool activated and forgot about that or something... I don't remember, but whatever it was, either undoing didn't fix it or I didn't want to undo. This removed the tie from that first half note to the quarter note in the next measure. No problem, I figured, I can just select them and tie them. Unfortunately, ever since then, it SHOWS the tie, but it plays like it's not tied. Since I had worked out an earlier problem (with this same chord) with the matrix editor, I tried that. I get the same problem, though. Might it be worth deleting the whole chord altogether and putting it back in? At least in the matrix editor? On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 10:21 AM, Lorenzo Sutton wrote: > On 07/04/2016 16:39, Silas Mortimer wrote: >> Oh, geez. It's been a long time since I've used a mailing list and I >> sent my reply to Lorenzo personally. Thanks for your patience, >> Lorenzo. > > Happy to help new RG users, it's the least one can do.. ;) > >> >> Okay, here's what I said in the reply: >> >> Oh, it definitely does help. It's not a showstopper by any means. I >> asked all of this mainly because a) I'm new to composing this way and >> b) I figured it was messing up because of something *I* was doing >> wrong and that there might be a way to fix it that for some reason *I* >> wasn't finding. The only implied failings here are mine, trust me. If >> this is just how it is, I'm fine with that. >> >> Still, though, in that second example, even in the matrix editor, I >> can't get the chord to ring out instead of sounding twice. What am I >> doing wrong there? > > Do you mean notes spanning multiple measures? My experience is that the > matrix editor doesn't always handle well tied notes... Try making tied > notes into longer notes (just 'pull' them with the mouse to the right)? > > Or maybe I'm totally misunderstanding the issue. > > Lorenzo. > > -- > ___ > Rosegarden-user mailing list > Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On 04/07/2016 10:44 AM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > do that and then use shortcuts in LilyPond to "clean it up" visually? > To be specific, what I'm asking is if LilyPond has ways of easily > fixing problems like my first example. The LilyPond export engine is very much GIGO. Garbage in, garbage out. If the notation is a mess in Rosegarden, it will be even worse in LilyPond. I started playing a game and stayed up way past my bedtime, so I don't have time to look at your examples just now. I recognize the kind of growing pains you are experiencing, and when I get time to reply, I should be able to help you. Just hang in there, and I'll get back to you within 24 hours. -- D. Michael McIntyre -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On 04/07/2016 08:37 AM, Lorenzo Sutton wrote: > Rosegarden actually does have some 'intelligence' when it comes to > interpreting notation (e.g. dynamics), but it cannot 'imagine' what you > would like especially in terms of note onsets and lengths. It also has totally separate durations and note timings for performance and notation purposes. You can have something that plays swung but reads straight, for example. You can have something that sounds like a bunch of weird multi-dotted notes interspersed with weird multi-dotted rests, yet reads very cleanly. -- D. Michael McIntyre -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On 07/04/2016 16:39, Silas Mortimer wrote: > Oh, geez. It's been a long time since I've used a mailing list and I > sent my reply to Lorenzo personally. Thanks for your patience, > Lorenzo. Happy to help new RG users, it's the least one can do.. ;) > > Okay, here's what I said in the reply: > > Oh, it definitely does help. It's not a showstopper by any means. I > asked all of this mainly because a) I'm new to composing this way and > b) I figured it was messing up because of something *I* was doing > wrong and that there might be a way to fix it that for some reason *I* > wasn't finding. The only implied failings here are mine, trust me. If > this is just how it is, I'm fine with that. > > Still, though, in that second example, even in the matrix editor, I > can't get the chord to ring out instead of sounding twice. What am I > doing wrong there? Do you mean notes spanning multiple measures? My experience is that the matrix editor doesn't always handle well tied notes... Try making tied notes into longer notes (just 'pull' them with the mouse to the right)? Or maybe I'm totally misunderstanding the issue. Lorenzo. -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
Yeah, I'm getting a better sense of the whole thing through this thread. I like that it allows me to input notation as I find it a LOT easier to think in that than the matrix editor, which, despite getting the gist of it and being able to make modifications in it, I don't fully understand yet. Let me ask this, as I also don't have experience with things like LilyPond: I think I saw that I can export to LilyPond, right? Could I do that and then use shortcuts in LilyPond to "clean it up" visually? To be specific, what I'm asking is if LilyPond has ways of easily fixing problems like my first example. On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 9:33 AM, David Tisdell wrote: > You could focus on how the piece sounds and when you have it the way you > want, make a duplicate and clean it up from a notation point of view. For > notation, I would just use a fermata where the matrix editor is messing with > the notation. > I love the fact that RG is a musical swiss army knife but that does, as > Lorenzo pointed out, introduce trade offs. If you want the best out of the > sequencer and the notation editor, I would make 2 files. > > Dave > > On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 6:27 PM, Silas Mortimer > wrote: >> >> Hi. I'm not only new to Rosegarden, I'm new to computer composing >> beyond using guitarix/Hydrogen/Ardour for recording. I've been working >> on a piece and learning bit by bit as I go along. Of course, this >> means that I'm making a lot of mistakes as I go. >> >> The trouble winds up in the notation editor. By the time I'm done >> fixing whatever needs to be fixed in what I previously did, the >> notation is left looking terrible, lol. Not *really* the software's >> fault, but I would think that there might be a way to, oh, I don't >> know, hit a button or menu item that would reformat the entire thing >> to be a little more elegant and/or make sense? >> >> What I'm currently writing is in 2/4 time, in the D melodic minor >> scale. One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out >> longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after >> it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I >> could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I >> did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes >> sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again, >> it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like >> it's tied, but it's not shown that way. >> >> Is there some way I can keep the music as it is, but discard and >> regenerate the notation? I apologize for my ignorance here. >> >> I do love being able to do what I'm doing, though. This is a great >> application. >> >> >> -- >> ___ >> Rosegarden-user mailing list >> Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user > > -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
Oh, geez. It's been a long time since I've used a mailing list and I sent my reply to Lorenzo personally. Thanks for your patience, Lorenzo. Okay, here's what I said in the reply: Oh, it definitely does help. It's not a showstopper by any means. I asked all of this mainly because a) I'm new to composing this way and b) I figured it was messing up because of something *I* was doing wrong and that there might be a way to fix it that for some reason *I* wasn't finding. The only implied failings here are mine, trust me. If this is just how it is, I'm fine with that. Still, though, in that second example, even in the matrix editor, I can't get the chord to ring out instead of sounding twice. What am I doing wrong there? On Thu, Apr 7, 2016 at 7:37 AM, Lorenzo Sutton wrote: > Hi! > > On 07/04/2016 00:27, Silas Mortimer wrote: > > [...] > >> One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out >> longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after >> it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I >> could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I >> did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes >> sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again, >> it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like >> it's tied, but it's not shown that way. > > I think that's expected and software can't really help you there. > > I guess this is the basic concept and conundrum of sequencer which (like > rosegarden) also support notation: if the notation is 'perfect' from a > visual/typesetting point of view it will sound mechanical from a > performance point of view. The matrix editor (aka Piano Roll in some > software) enables you to tweak notes so that e.g. they result more > realistic but that will inevitably screw notation. > > Really, it's a conundrum in music itself. No one performs exactly what > is written on a score (some contemporary music can be an exception), so > imagine writing down on a score *exactly* what a performer is playing... > > Rosegarden actually does have some 'intelligence' when it comes to > interpreting notation (e.g. dynamics), but it cannot 'imagine' what you > would like especially in terms of note onsets and lengths. > > My recommendation would be to: > a.) use notation for: > 1. Inputting notes when you are familiar or more comfortable with > traditional notation. > 2. Want to concentrate on the notation aspects of your piece, e.g. > because you want to eventually publish it. > > b.) Use the matrix editor when: > 1. You want to concentrate on how your piece actually sounds. > 2. You become familiar enough with the matrix paradigm to be able to > input notes directly there. > 3. Adjust at the fine level not onsets, durations, velocities etc. > > To conclude, take into account that some sequencers simply do not > provide notation, so think of Rosegarden as a sequencer with a (very > advanced compared to many sequencers) support for notation ;) > > Hope this helps. > Lorenzo. > > -- > ___ > Rosegarden-user mailing list > Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
You could focus on how the piece sounds and when you have it the way you want, make a duplicate and clean it up from a notation point of view. For notation, I would just use a fermata where the matrix editor is messing with the notation. I love the fact that RG is a musical swiss army knife but that does, as Lorenzo pointed out, introduce trade offs. If you want the best out of the sequencer and the notation editor, I would make 2 files. Dave On Wed, Apr 6, 2016 at 6:27 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > Hi. I'm not only new to Rosegarden, I'm new to computer composing > beyond using guitarix/Hydrogen/Ardour for recording. I've been working > on a piece and learning bit by bit as I go along. Of course, this > means that I'm making a lot of mistakes as I go. > > The trouble winds up in the notation editor. By the time I'm done > fixing whatever needs to be fixed in what I previously did, the > notation is left looking terrible, lol. Not *really* the software's > fault, but I would think that there might be a way to, oh, I don't > know, hit a button or menu item that would reformat the entire thing > to be a little more elegant and/or make sense? > > What I'm currently writing is in 2/4 time, in the D melodic minor > scale. One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out > longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after > it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I > could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I > did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes > sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again, > it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like > it's tied, but it's not shown that way. > > Is there some way I can keep the music as it is, but discard and > regenerate the notation? I apologize for my ignorance here. > > I do love being able to do what I'm doing, though. This is a great > application. > > > -- > ___ > Rosegarden-user mailing list > Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user > -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
Hi! On 07/04/2016 00:27, Silas Mortimer wrote: [...] > One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out > longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after > it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I > could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I > did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes > sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again, > it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like > it's tied, but it's not shown that way. I think that's expected and software can't really help you there. I guess this is the basic concept and conundrum of sequencer which (like rosegarden) also support notation: if the notation is 'perfect' from a visual/typesetting point of view it will sound mechanical from a performance point of view. The matrix editor (aka Piano Roll in some software) enables you to tweak notes so that e.g. they result more realistic but that will inevitably screw notation. Really, it's a conundrum in music itself. No one performs exactly what is written on a score (some contemporary music can be an exception), so imagine writing down on a score *exactly* what a performer is playing... Rosegarden actually does have some 'intelligence' when it comes to interpreting notation (e.g. dynamics), but it cannot 'imagine' what you would like especially in terms of note onsets and lengths. My recommendation would be to: a.) use notation for: 1. Inputting notes when you are familiar or more comfortable with traditional notation. 2. Want to concentrate on the notation aspects of your piece, e.g. because you want to eventually publish it. b.) Use the matrix editor when: 1. You want to concentrate on how your piece actually sounds. 2. You become familiar enough with the matrix paradigm to be able to input notes directly there. 3. Adjust at the fine level not onsets, durations, velocities etc. To conclude, take into account that some sequencers simply do not provide notation, so think of Rosegarden as a sequencer with a (very advanced compared to many sequencers) support for notation ;) Hope this helps. Lorenzo. -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
Re: [Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
On 04/06/2016 06:27 PM, Silas Mortimer wrote: > Is there some way I can keep the music as it is, but discard and > regenerate the notation? I apologize for my ignorance here. It seems to me the most productive way to deal with your questions would be for me to run through your composition with you, focusing on one specific problem at a time. Find a bar you dislike, and I will show you what tools Rosegarden offers for dealing with those specific problems. There will always be stuff to fiddle with, but once you gain experience the fiddling will go faster. Rosegarden pretty much represents a compromise between how much hand work I have to keep doing due to a lack of features, and how long it would take me to develop the features, if I even could. Dealing with a clunky Rosegarden eats a lot of time, but writing features eats a lot more time. Features are expensive to develop. Honestly, I haven't managed a good one in several years now. I've started two or three ambitious projects that I just didn't have time to complete. -- D. Michael McIntyre -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user
[Rosegarden-user] Ugly notation formatting
Hi. I'm not only new to Rosegarden, I'm new to computer composing beyond using guitarix/Hydrogen/Ardour for recording. I've been working on a piece and learning bit by bit as I go along. Of course, this means that I'm making a lot of mistakes as I go. The trouble winds up in the notation editor. By the time I'm done fixing whatever needs to be fixed in what I previously did, the notation is left looking terrible, lol. Not *really* the software's fault, but I would think that there might be a way to, oh, I don't know, hit a button or menu item that would reformat the entire thing to be a little more elegant and/or make sense? What I'm currently writing is in 2/4 time, in the D melodic minor scale. One example is at one point I wanted to make a chord ring out longer than I'd originally put it and had already added notes after it. I searched for what I should do there, and from what I gather, I could only do that in the matrix editor. Is that the case? Anyway, I did it there, and the notation not only looks bad, it no longer makes sense. I think there might be a whole note listed in one bar (again, it's in 2/4), and there's something that should be tied, plays like it's tied, but it's not shown that way. Is there some way I can keep the music as it is, but discard and regenerate the notation? I apologize for my ignorance here. I do love being able to do what I'm doing, though. This is a great application. -- ___ Rosegarden-user mailing list Rosegarden-user@lists.sourceforge.net - use the link below to unsubscribe https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/rosegarden-user