subject:"Re\: \[Tagging\] Can OSM become a geospacial database\?"

sent from a phone

> On 6. Dec 2018, at 23:38, Michael Patrick  wrote:
> 
> This also leaves room for reconciling it with other classifications - 
> Japanese style carpentry roles are more or less orthogonal to Western style,

you are right that there are dictionaries about this stuff, but you will have 
to have a basic idea in order to make use of them, particularly if English is 
not your native language, you might look up terms that you are familiar with, 
and might not be aware that you are missing another relevant term, or that the 
term is not a translation with more or less the same meaning but only loosely 
connected.

Language is reflecting reality, and if the way construction work is organized 
is different in different countries, also the terms describing the workers will 
not be matchable.

Additionally we are not going to add every single term that describes a 
profession as a tag, because there are synonyms and overlap. We usually try to 
create (not too) coarse classes/groups and use subtags to distinguish minor 
differences. 

FWIW, with regard to dictionaries, in the case of the misleading roofer 
description, it was copied exactly from the English wikipedia article on 
roofers, which is in itself not consistent there (mixes carpentry and roofing 
in the article).

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-06 Thread Mateusz Konieczny

6 Dec 2018, 12:51 by yauge...@gmail.com:

> Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field. "Paris" 
> would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-06 Thread Mateusz Konieczny

6. Dec 2018 16:56 by yauge...@gmail.com :


> Let's look into some other examples.> Settlements are supposed to be defined 
> with place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling tags. The value depends 
> on the size of the settlement.> But in Belarus for example we call our 
> settlements "город" (can be city or town), "городской посёлок" (can be town 
> or village), "посёлок"/"деревня"/"хутор" (can be village or hamlet or 
> isolated_dwelling).> When people use the maps created form OSM database they 
> don't care about the generic OSM categorization of settlements. They need 
> their local category names.> So what tag should be put those local category 
> names in?




 You may start using an additional tag to add information about legal 
designation of a 
settlement (I suspect that tag like this already exists).

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-06 Thread Michael Patrick

> great you name carpenters, because there were actually some problems in the
> past classifying people working with wood. ... Can you explain the
> difference between a framer, a carpenter, a cabinet maker, a joiner, a
> finish carpenter, a timberman, a ring builder, a jerry man, a binder?
>

There could only be a problem classifying trades if existing lexicons are
ignored. At least in the U.S., currently, there are fairly exact
definitions for trade classifications, down to the types of tools, specific
materials, certification, and processes where required.

Example: *"Grade 9 roofers must be fully skilled in installing new roofs.
They must have the ability to apply the starter row of shingles to insure
that they overlap properly and that they are securely fastened to the
subsurface to eliminate possibility of leaks. On built-up roofs, they must
be skilled in applying roofing felt, asphalt and gravel, or other topping
material, and in sealing joints of roofing accessories with asphalt. In
addition to work at the grade 7 level, the grade 9 roofers must be able to
install and repair the metal roofing accessories themselves, such as gravel
guards, flashings, gutters, valleys, vents, pipes, and chimneys.They also
must have the ability to cut and form metal accessories to meet roofing
requirements, to fasten them to roofs with nails or screws, to solder metal
joints, and to cut and shape shingles to fit around the accessories. In
comparison with the grade 7 level, the grade 9 roofers also must be
familiar with a greater variety of roofing materials and their uses and
methods of installation. They must know how to apply wood, asbestos, slate
tile, and composition shingles; metal roofing panels; roofing felt and
asphalt. When required, they must be able to apply asbestos siding
materials.In addition to the hand tools used at the grade 7 level, they
must be skilled in the use of shingle cutters, metal snips and saws. "*

International Open BIM systems standards ( Building Information Management,
which covers the entire life cycle from natural site, through construction
and operation, to demolition and site restoration ) have even finer grain
of detail.

Some of them might be synonyms, some reflect regional differences (e.g. AE
> vs. BE)?
>

Since the labor and materials supply chain is international, there are
multi-lingual crosswalk tables between the U.S. and E.U., between the E.U.
and the member countries.

A casual observer might observe a job site during a pour, and classify the
workers as 'concrete workers', when they are actually Formwork *Carpenters.*

Folksonomies  like OSM have
benefits, but as they expand, the downsides begin to matter, and there
usually isn't an effective mechanism to refactor them.

Sometimes the apparent complexity of these existing standards appear
intimidating, but they all have a root, branches, and leaves, and one can
select the level(s) of abstraction which are coincident with common
language. i.e. in one place you can see what the differences *and
similarities* "... between a framer, a carpenter, a cabinet maker, a
joiner, a finish carpenter, a timberman, a ring builder, a jerry man, a
binder" are, and where your term lies in the hierarchy. Sometimes, the
'root' concept and groupings are not obvious.

This also leaves room for reconciling it with other classifications -
Japanese style carpentry roles are more or less orthogonal to Western
style, more intensely aligned to product, the worker literally might select
and fell the tree, mill that wood, and eventually carve it to shape in it's
final position.

It's a question, to a degree, of "re-inventing the wheel". There are
already existing tagging schemes in the world ( some going back to the
1700's, from guilds and registries ). It might be worth a few minutes to
seek those out, and adopt from those.

Michael Patrick
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-06 Thread Eugene Alvin Villar

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018, 11:58 PM Eugene Podshivalov  But in Belarus for example we call our settlements "город" (can be city or
> town), "городской посёлок" (can be town or village),
> "посёлок"/"деревня"/"хутор" (can be village or hamlet or isolated_dwelling).
> When people use the maps created form OSM database they don't care about
> the generic OSM categorization of settlements. They need their local
> category names.
> So what tag should be put those local category names in?
>

If these settlement types are legally-defined types in your country, you
could use the designation=* tag with your country-specific values alongside
the usual place=* tags.

See: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:designation

>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-06 Thread Paul Allen

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 4:38 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

> For example I would see the distinction between a hamlet and a village in
> a functional criterion, while in Europe it is often clear what is a town
> and what is a big village, from looking at the legal situation (history is
> usually important), it can be in the name / people usually know it.
>

In the UK, many many years ago, these distinctions applied:

To be a city the place had to have a cathedral.

To be a town the place had to have a market.

To be a village the place had to have a church.

To be a hamlet it didn't even have a church but did have more than one
dwelling.

The distinctions were never that hard and fast, and have only loosened over
time.  A city now has a
cathedral or a royal charter or a university or just feels like calling
itself a city.  A large village in England
can be larger than a large town in Wales.  Some towns no longer have
markets, but once did.
Some villages no longer have churches, but once did.  Etc.

I see that the wiki suggests using those terms as an indicator of
population rather than anything else.
Since some renderers assume those values are indicators of population,
maybe that's what we
should be using explicitly and drop the city/town/village/hamlet.  Except,
of course, population is often
left untagged (and is sometimes that information is simply not available).

The real world is messy.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Am Do., 6. Dez. 2018 um 16:58 Uhr schrieb Eugene Podshivalov <
yauge...@gmail.com>:

> Let's look into some other examples.
> Settlements are supposed to be defined with
> place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling tags. The value depends on
> the size of the settlement.
>


this is not a hard requirement, there is a suggestion to do it like this,
and there is an explicit note that it can differ by country/context.
For example I would see the distinction between a hamlet and a village in a
functional criterion, while in Europe it is often clear what is a town and
what is a big village, from looking at the legal situation (history is
usually important), it can be in the name / people usually know it.




> But in Belarus for example we call our settlements "город" (can be city or
> town), "городской посёлок" (can be town or village),
> "посёлок"/"деревня"/"хутор" (can be village or hamlet or isolated_dwelling).
>
When people use the maps created form OSM database they don't care about
> the generic OSM categorization of settlements. They need their local
> category names.
> So what tag should be put those local category names in?
>
>

You should create a scale of significance which correlates more or less to
the situation and adopt the standard place tags, plus add a subtag for the
local classes. How do they work, what does characterize them? Is it about
the administration hierarchy?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-06 Thread Kevin Kenny

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 10:58 AM Eugene Podshivalov 
wrote:

> Let's look into some other examples.
> Settlements are supposed to be defined with
> place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling tags. The value depends on
> the size of the settlement.
> But in Belarus for example we call our settlements "город" (can be city or
> town), "городской посёлок" (can be town or village),
> "посёлок"/"деревня"/"хутор" (can be village or hamlet or isolated_dwelling).
> When people use the maps created form OSM database they don't care about
> the generic OSM categorization of settlements. They need their local
> category names.
> So what tag should be put those local category names in?
>
>
Several thoughts.

If it's something that people usually use in referring to the place, put it
in the name. So 'Nizhny Novgorod' would be named thus (sorry, I don't have
the time to try to enter Cyrillic on a US keyboard).

If it refers to an administrative entity, put an appropriate level in the
boundary=administrative.

Where I live, the formal designation of a place usually fails to match the
OSM definition. We have formal 'hamlet's that have 6 inhabitants, and
chartered cities with only a few hundred. We use boundary=administrative
with an appropriate admin_level (and I've been lobbying for
administrative:entity to give a word for the legal designation: county,
borough, city, township, village, hamlet, ward, precinct, community
district, ... but that hasn't gotten any significant traction yet). The
'admin_level' is not strictly hierarchical here, because our system for
drawing administrative boundaries is, "there's no system: deal with it!"
The OSM definition is useful for mapping - deciding at what level to render
the name and in how big a font, for instance. Few people around here
actually care when using a map what formal political organization the place
has. Whether the community I grew up in was a Hamlet or a Village made very
little practical difference. You'd have a different set of local
politicians, and the cops might work for the county instead of the town,
but the type of place was clearly much less important than the borders of
the place.

If it's a question about the common name rather than the formal name,
that's usually dealt with by name_1, etc. That way, the city called "New
York" can be disambiguated, "New York City" (informal, very commonly used
to make it clear that it's New York City and not New York State), "The City
of New York" (what appears on most of its legal papers), "The City of
Greater New York" (the way it's styled in its charter).

If it's neither a component of the name of the place nor a formal
designation of a political boundary, can you explain more why it's
important? Is it immediately obvious in the field that one thing is a
'gorod' and another is a 'gorodskoy posyolok,' while a third is a
'perevnya?' If so, what is the difference? What's the problem we're trying
to solve?
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Let's look into some other examples.
Settlements are supposed to be defined with
place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling tags. The value depends on
the size of the settlement.
But in Belarus for example we call our settlements "город" (can be city or
town), "городской посёлок" (can be town or village),
"посёлок"/"деревня"/"хутор" (can be village or hamlet or isolated_dwelling).
When people use the maps created form OSM database they don't care about
the generic OSM categorization of settlements. They need their local
category names.
So what tag should be put those local category names in?

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 18:52, Xavier :

> On Thu, Dec 06, 2018 at 04:44:43PM +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> >btw, just saw that roofer is defined as: "A workplace or office of a
> >tradesman who is specialized in roof construction.", IMHO this should be
> >more specific (if I am not misguided) by pointing out it isn't about the
> >structure but about the cover, right?
>
> At least in the US, yes.  The term "roofer" is typically used (in the
> US) to refer to tradesman who install roof coverings (i.e., roof
> shingles, etc.) onto an already constructed roof sub-structure.
>
> They ("roofers") also sometimes do small repair work (replace some
> rotten roof boards, etc.) while installing a new roof cover on an
> existing building, but they typically are not the builders of the full
> roof substructure.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-06 Thread Xavier


On Thu, Dec 06, 2018 at 04:44:43PM +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

btw, just saw that roofer is defined as: "A workplace or office of a
tradesman who is specialized in roof construction.", IMHO this should be
more specific (if I am not misguided) by pointing out it isn't about the
structure but about the cover, right?


At least in the US, yes.  The term "roofer" is typically used (in the 
US) to refer to tradesman who install roof coverings (i.e., roof 
shingles, etc.) onto an already constructed roof sub-structure.


They ("roofers") also sometimes do small repair work (replace some 
rotten roof boards, etc.) while installing a new roof cover on an 
existing building, but they typically are not the builders of the full 
roof substructure.


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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Am Do., 6. Dez. 2018 um 15:52 Uhr schrieb Kevin Kenny <
kevin.b.ke...@gmail.com>:

>
> Right. But please don't resort to local-language words for terms that do
> have a satisfactory UK-English equivalent. Don't use craft=menuiscier in
> French when 'carpenter' is a serviceable English word. And please wikify
> your choices.
>



great you name carpenters, because there were actually some problems in the
past classifying people working with wood.
Can you explain the difference between a framer, a carpenter, a cabinet
maker, a joiner, a finish carpenter, a timberman, a ring builder, a jerry
man, a binder?

Some of them might be synonyms, some reflect regional differences (e.g. AE
vs. BE)?

Does the term "carpenter" imply someone will do structural wood work, like
roofs, walls, stairs, ships or is it more generic?
Which one is a specialist for fine, precise wood work like furniture?
You could probably ask someone specialized in structural work to do
finishings, just that the quality will typically not be what you get from
someone specialized in interiors or furniture.

There is some documentation in the wiki, but there is also overlap in
definitions, this is currently on the craft map features page:
* a carpenter is defined to make everything: "A workplace or office of
carpenters that work with timber to construct, install and maintain
buildings, furniture, and other objects.")
* cabinetmaker: A person who makes fine wooden furniture
* cooper: A person or company that manufacture of containers and vessels
mainly made of wood.
* joiner: An artisan who builds things by joining pieces of wood,
particularly furniture or ornamental work.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:craft


btw, just saw that roofer is defined as: "A workplace or office of a
tradesman who is specialized in roof construction.", IMHO this should be
more specific (if I am not misguided) by pointing out it isn't about the
structure but about the cover, right?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Totally agreed! Thanks!

Now, do you see anything wrong in an attempt of being "/cross-cultuarlly 
correct/" and, _just as an example_,  tag a feature as:

shop=deli
shop:it=salumeria

?

That, I think, would have value added for both "/an American in Rome/", trying 
to find a place where to buy food, and "/an Italian in Rome/" trying to find a 
proper salumeria...


On 2018-12-06 15:51, Kevin Kenny wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:31 AM Sergio Manzi  > wrote:
>
> That's what I'm often hearing, and not only from you, but have a look at 
> wiki page about the /craft /key [1 
> ], as in there I can read:
>
> "/You are *free *to use *values *that match your needs as a mapper 
> and your local or country environment, culture and *language*. *If *using the 
> English language, please use the singular form, e.g. carpenter not carpenters 
> or carpenter's./"
>
> From the above I get:
>
>  1. A recognition that sometimes English terms are not fit to convey a 
> culture-specific concept.
>  2. I can use terms that are not part of the English language if they are 
> needed to convey such concepts.
>
> Right. But please don't resort to local-language words for terms that do have 
> a satisfactory UK-English equivalent. Don't use craft=menuiscier in French 
> when 'carpenter' is a serviceable English word. And please wikify your 
> choices.


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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-06 Thread Kevin Kenny

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:31 AM Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> That's what I'm often hearing, and not only from you, but have a look at
> wiki page about the *craft *key [1
> ], as in there I can read:
>
> "*You are free to use values that match your needs as a mapper and your
> local or country environment, culture and language. If using the English
> language, please use the singular form, e.g. carpenter not carpenters or
> carpenter's.*"
>
> From the above I get:
>
>1. A recognition that sometimes English terms are not fit to convey a
>culture-specific concept.
>2. I can use terms that are not part of the English language if they
>are needed to convey such concepts.
>
> Right. But please don't resort to local-language words for terms that do
have a satisfactory UK-English equivalent. Don't use craft=menuiscier in
French when 'carpenter' is a serviceable English word. And please wikify
your choices.
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

That's what I'm often hearing, and not only from you, but have a look at wiki 
page about the /craft /key [1 ], 
as in there I can read:

"/You are *free *to use *values *that match your needs as a mapper and your 
local or country environment, culture and *language*. *If *using the English 
language, please use the singular form, e.g. carpenter not carpenters or 
carpenter's./"

From the above I get:

 1. A recognition that sometimes English terms are not fit to convey a 
culture-specific concept.
 2. I can use terms that are not part of the English language if they are 
needed to convey such concepts.

Have a nice day,

Sergio

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:craft

On 2018-12-06 13:53, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> we do not translate anything, we do add names in different languages, but 
> these aren’t translations, they are names.

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-06 Thread Paul Allen

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 12:39 PM Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> Eugene, those are "*proper names*" and as such they are untranslatable,
> and that's exactly why to put a category name within a proper name is "*a
> very bad idea (tm)*". But if a proper name happens to have a category has
> part of its proper name, just leave it alone... no problem...
>

+99

Very often the name of an object is also descriptive.  Probably because it
starts out being
purely descriptive and ends up being the proper name of the object.  There
is a bridge in Paris
which is called "Pont Neuf" (New Bridge) - it's the oldest standing bridge
in Paris but, at the
time it acquired that name, it was the newest.  There are a gazillion
(rough estimate) farmhouses
in Wales called "Penrallt" (top of the wood).  Etc., etc.  Those terms
describe those objects but
they're also the names of those objects.

Don't use an object's description as its name unless that description
actually IS the name.  Some
people know only the first eight words of that instruction and are unaware
of the last seven words.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?



sent from a phone

> On 6. Dec 2018, at 13:30, Eugene Podshivalov  wrote:
> 
> And how would you translate into French such American waterway=stream's as  
> “Bull Run”, “Walker Creek”, “Johnson’s Brook”, etc. 


we do not translate anything, we do add names in different languages, but these 
aren’t translations, they are names.

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Eugene, those are "/proper names/" and as such they are untranslatable, and 
that's exactly why to put a category name within a proper name is "/a very bad 
idea (tm)/". But if a proper name happens to have a category has part of its 
proper name, just leave it alone... no problem...

Cheers!

Sergio


On 2018-12-06 13:30, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
> And how would you translate into French such American waterway=stream's as  
> “Bull Run”, “Walker Creek”, “Johnson’s Brook”, etc. 
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:25, Eugene Podshivalov  >:
>
> Sergio,
>
> how would you make up the name for one of yours пруд or копанка in 
> English?  
>
> Let me please answer your question with a question
> How to you translate your French highway=residential's into in English 
> like "Cité Pasteur", "Rue André Bru", "Voie des Roses" etc?
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:17, Eugene Podshivalov  >:
>
> I am pursonally not in favour of the solution with category names in 
> the "name" but have mentioned it because it is currently used in every 
> country for highway=residential ways.
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:08, Sergio Manzi  >:
>
> That's (/quite obviously I would say.../) not a solution: all it 
> does is to move the problem from one place to another: how would you make up 
> the name for one of yoursпруд or копанка in English?
>
>
> On 2018-12-06 12:51, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>> Another solution is to always put category name into "name" 
>> field. "Paris" would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
>> And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category 
>> word from some names in order not to display then on the map or another 
>> ready-to-use tag will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" 
>> in it.
>>
>> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 13:52, Simon Poole > >:
>>
>> Just to inject a bit of OT here
>>
>> - the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne
>>
>> - the literal translation is "lake of the four forest 
>> settlements" (only
>> loosely related to the notion of cantons)
>>
>> In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or 
>> "Vierwaldstätten" would
>> obviously be nonsense.
>>
>> Simon
>>
>> Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
>> > Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>> >> The name tag is abused very often and systematically. 
>> >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
>> > just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does 
>> not necessarily
>> > mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and 
>> not "abc"
>> >
>> > the same for the lakes.
>> > the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called 
>> "Léman"
>> > and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
>> > But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called 
>> the "lake of
>> > the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 
>> cantons" are located,
>> > he don't understand what you're talking about because that 
>> not its name.
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

sent from a phone

> On 6. Dec 2018, at 13:17, Eugene Podshivalov  wrote:
> 
> I am pursonally not in favour of the solution with category names in the 
> "name" but have mentioned it because it is currently used in every country 
> for highway=residential ways.

there is no way we could/would change the definition of the name tag. 
It is for the name, whether that comprises a “category name” or not depends on 
the culture/language and instance, whether or not the category is part of the 
name (Deutschland, United Kingdom, United States of America, to name a few 
obvious, Bodensee, Lake Erie, Lago di Como, New York City, Feldberg, Mont 
Blanc, )  has to be decided with solid knowledge of the language and 
context, on an individual basis.

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

And how would you translate into French such American waterway=stream's as
“Bull Run”, “Walker Creek”, “Johnson’s Brook”, etc.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:25, Eugene Podshivalov :

> Sergio,
>>
>> how would you make up the name for one of yours пруд or копанка in
>> English?
>
> Let me please answer your question with a question
> How to you translate your French highway=residential's into in English
> like "Cité Pasteur", "Rue André Bru", "Voie des Roses" etc?
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:17, Eugene Podshivalov :
>
>> I am pursonally not in favour of the solution with category names in the
>> "name" but have mentioned it because it is currently used in every country
>> for highway=residential ways.
>>
>> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:08, Sergio Manzi :
>>
>>> That's (*quite obviously I would say...*) not a solution: all it does
>>> is to move the problem from one place to another: how would you make up the
>>> name for one of yours пруд or копанка in English?
>>>
>>> On 2018-12-06 12:51, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>>>
>>> Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field.
>>> "Paris" would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
>>> And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from
>>> some names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use
>>> tag will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.
>>>
>>> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 13:52, Simon Poole :
>>>
 Just to inject a bit of OT here

 - the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne

 - the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
 loosely related to the notion of cantons)

 In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
 obviously be nonsense.

 Simon

 Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
 > Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
 >> The name tag is abused very often and systematically.
 >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
 > just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not
 necessarily
 > mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
 >
 > the same for the lakes.
 > the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
 > and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
 > But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
 > the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are
 located,
 > he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its
 name.
 > ___
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 > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

 ___
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 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

>>>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio,
>
> how would you make up the name for one of yours пруд or копанка in English
> ?

Let me please answer your question with a question
How to you translate your French highway=residential's into in English like
"Cité Pasteur", "Rue André Bru", "Voie des Roses" etc?

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:17, Eugene Podshivalov :

> I am pursonally not in favour of the solution with category names in the
> "name" but have mentioned it because it is currently used in every country
> for highway=residential ways.
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:08, Sergio Manzi :
>
>> That's (*quite obviously I would say...*) not a solution: all it does is
>> to move the problem from one place to another: how would you make up the
>> name for one of yours пруд or копанка in English?
>>
>> On 2018-12-06 12:51, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>>
>> Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field.
>> "Paris" would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
>> And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from
>> some names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use
>> tag will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.
>>
>> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 13:52, Simon Poole :
>>
>>> Just to inject a bit of OT here
>>>
>>> - the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne
>>>
>>> - the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
>>> loosely related to the notion of cantons)
>>>
>>> In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
>>> obviously be nonsense.
>>>
>>> Simon
>>>
>>> Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
>>> > Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>>> >> The name tag is abused very often and systematically.
>>> >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
>>> > just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not
>>> necessarily
>>> > mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
>>> >
>>> > the same for the lakes.
>>> > the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
>>> > and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
>>> > But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
>>> > the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are
>>> located,
>>> > he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its
>>> name.
>>> > ___
>>> > Tagging mailing list
>>> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

I am pursonally not in favour of the solution with category names in the
"name" but have mentioned it because it is currently used in every country
for highway=residential ways.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 15:08, Sergio Manzi :

> That's (*quite obviously I would say...*) not a solution: all it does is
> to move the problem from one place to another: how would you make up the
> name for one of yours пруд or копанка in English?
>
> On 2018-12-06 12:51, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>
> Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field. "Paris"
> would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
> And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from
> some names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use
> tag will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 13:52, Simon Poole :
>
>> Just to inject a bit of OT here
>>
>> - the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne
>>
>> - the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
>> loosely related to the notion of cantons)
>>
>> In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
>> obviously be nonsense.
>>
>> Simon
>>
>> Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
>> > Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>> >> The name tag is abused very often and systematically.
>> >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
>> > just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not
>> necessarily
>> > mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
>> >
>> > the same for the lakes.
>> > the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
>> > and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
>> > But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
>> > the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are
>> located,
>> > he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
>> > ___
>> > Tagging mailing list
>> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

That's (/quite obviously I would say.../) not a solution: all it does is to 
move the problem from one place to another: how would you make up the name for 
one of yoursпруд or копанка in English?


On 2018-12-06 12:51, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
> Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field. "Paris" 
> would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
> And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from some 
> names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use tag 
> will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 13:52, Simon Poole  >:
>
> Just to inject a bit of OT here
>
> - the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne
>
> - the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
> loosely related to the notion of cantons)
>
> In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
> obviously be nonsense.
>
> Simon
>
> Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
> > Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> >> The name tag is abused very often and systematically. 
> >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> > just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily
> > mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
> >
> > the same for the lakes.
> > the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
> > and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
> > But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
> > the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located,
> > he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-06 Thread Marc Gemis

> Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field. "Paris" 
> would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
> And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from some 
> names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use tag 
> will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.

that's the world upside down.
You have to analyse the tags we put on the object
(natural=water;water=lake or place=town, etc.). You can query all
those tags.
Many items do not have detail descriptions via the tags (e.g. just
amenity=school and no isced:level), because mappers are not
interested, do not know the detail or do not know they can add those
details.

At this moment I see no interest in something like education 2.0
(available as a rejected proposal on the wiki) which tries to get rid
of amenity=school and replace that with a number of tags that breaks
up a object representing a school in smaller characteristics. Those
pieces together formed a "school".
But as said, many mapper do not add details and the proposal would
mean they have to add detail or go with something less than school , a
place of education. I would not only put a burden on mappers, but also
on all dataconsumers that what to provide a simple search for "driving
school", because you have to specify x number of characteristics
instead of just 1.

Over time we will add more information and all schools will have e.g.
isced:levels, etc. Perhaps this will still not be enough to
differentiate between Lycée and Atheneum, but I question whether OSM
alone should be the place to put all this information.
I do not believe that OSM should be the place to explain to any
researcher what the difference is between Lycée and atheneum. Another
database, perhaps Wikidata can be used for that. When OSM and Wikidata
are linked in one way or another you could query the combination of
databases and group schools in any way you want.

m.

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Another solution is to always put category name into "name" field. "Paris"
would become "City of Paris" or "Paris city".
And the renderers will need to decide how to cut the category word from
some names in order not to display then on the map or another ready-to-use
tag will need to be inroduce which would contain just "Paris" in it.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 13:52, Simon Poole :

> Just to inject a bit of OT here
>
> - the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne
>
> - the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
> loosely related to the notion of cantons)
>
> In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
> obviously be nonsense.
>
> Simon
>
> Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
> > Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> >> The name tag is abused very often and systematically.
> >> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> > just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily
> > mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
> >
> > the same for the lakes.
> > the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
> > and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
> > But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
> > the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located,
> > he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-06 Thread Simon Poole

Just to inject a bit of OT here

- the EN name of the Vierwaldstättersee is Lake Lucerne

- the literal translation is "lake of the four forest settlements" (only
loosely related to the notion of cantons)

In both cases naming the lake  "Lucerne" or "Vierwaldstätten" would
obviously be nonsense.

Simon

Am 05.12.2018 um 19:55 schrieb marc marc:
> Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
>> The name tag is abused very often and systematically.  
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily 
> mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
>
> the same for the lakes.
> the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
> and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
> But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of 
> the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located, 
> he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

description - is used for other purposes already - it lets you describe an
object in free manner which can be several sentances long.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 12:50, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> On 06/12/18 20:25, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>
> Let me clarify the meaning of those Russian words
> "пруд" - is usually a natural but modified by a man body of water which is
> smaller than lake. this is usually translated as "pond"
> "копанка" - is a very small body of water, escavated by an individual
> family for private fishing, usually of a square shape about 10x20 meters in
> size.
>
> Making additional subcategories makes sense only when they are commonly
> recognized.
> Adding language sepecific tag would work better here in my mind:
> water=pond + water:ru=копанка
> this way we preserve the generic categorization and let it be expanded for
> local purpose.
>
> With regards to "озеро" (lake) it is even more complecated. In Russian we
> may call "озеро" both natural and man-modified bodies of water.
> So both water=lake and water=pond can be called "озеро".
> The afore-mentioned solution could solve it:
> water=lake + water:ru=озеро
> water=pond + water:ru=озеро
>
> Another solution as suggested in the original post is to introduce some
> generic (category independent) tag like "name:prefix/postfix" or
> "type:" etc. for such things.
>
>
> Please.. not 'type'.
>
> How about using 'description' ...
> description:ru=копанка
> description:ru=пруд
> description:ru=озеро
>
> ???
>
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 04:17, Joseph Eisenberg > >:
>> For example, in America we can call a waterway=stream a “brook”, “creek”,
>> “run” and several other things. These waterways will be tagged
>> waterway=stream or =river (depending on size) with name=“Bull Run”,
>> =“Walker Creek”, =“Johnson’s Brook”, etc.
>> We don’t use waterway=creek or waterway=run because there is no
>> consistent difference between these. In fact in Standard British English a
>> Creek is often a tidal channel in a salt marsh or mangroves.
>
> If you put “brook”, “creek”, “run” etc. in the name field you will
> get tautology in search results like: "stream Blue creek". So either all
> objects should have their category in the name field and the search engine
> will not add anything or no objects should have category in the name fields
> and the search engine will take the category from some other field and
> append it to name.
> E.g. assume you have name=Blue + waterway=stream + waterway:en=creek, you
> search for "Blue" and get "Blue creek".
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 10:26, Johnparis :
>
>> Thanks, Michal. Following that link led me to:
>>
>> shop=butcher + butcher=pork
>>
>> which specifically mentions charcuterie. Presumably covers this too.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> John
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:18 AM Michal Fabík 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 10:03 PM Sergio Manzi  wrote:
>>> > I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of
>>> the US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a
>>> US "deli" shop...
>>>
>>> Hi, the wiki specifically mentions this and suggests a different way
>>> of tagging American delis:
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddeli
>>>
>>> --
>>> Michal Fabík
>>>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-06 Thread Warin


On 06/12/18 20:25, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:

Let me clarify the meaning of those Russian words
"пруд" - is usually a natural but modified by a man body of water 
which is smaller than lake. this is usually translated as "pond"
"копанка" - is a very small body of water, escavated by an individual 
family for private fishing, usually of a square shape about 10x20 
meters in size.


Making additional subcategories makes sense only when they are 
commonly recognized.

Adding language sepecific tag would work better here in my mind:
water=pond + water:ru=копанка
this way we preserve the generic categorization and let it be expanded 
for local purpose.


With regards to "озеро" (lake) it is even more complecated. In Russian 
we may call "озеро" both natural and man-modified bodies of water.

So both water=lake and water=pond can be called "озеро".
The afore-mentioned solution could solve it:
water=lake + water:ru=озеро
water=pond + water:ru=озеро

Another solution as suggested in the original post is to introduce 
some generic (category independent) tag like "name:prefix/postfix" or 
"type:" etc. for such things.


Please.. not 'type'.

How about using 'description' ...
description:ru=копанка
description:ru=пруд
description:ru=озеро

???


чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 04:17, Joseph Eisenberg
mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>>:
For example, in America we can call a waterway=stream a “brook”,
“creek”, “run” and several other things. These waterways will be
tagged waterway=stream or =river (depending on size) with
name=“Bull Run”, =“Walker Creek”, =“Johnson’s Brook”, etc.
We don’t use waterway=creek or waterway=run because there is no
consistent difference between these. In fact in Standard British
English a Creek is often a tidal channel in a salt marsh or mangroves.

If you put “brook”, “creek”, “run” etc. in the name field you will 
get tautology in search results like: "stream Blue creek". So either 
all objects should have their category in the name field and the 
search engine will not add anything or no objects should have category 
in the name fields and the search engine will take the category from 
some other field and append it to name.
E.g. assume you have name=Blue + waterway=stream + waterway:en=creek, 
you search for "Blue" and get "Blue creek".


чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 10:26, Johnparis >:


Thanks, Michal. Following that link led me to:

shop=butcher + butcher=pork

which specifically mentions charcuterie. Presumably covers this too.

Best,

John


On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:18 AM Michal Fabík
mailto:michal.fa...@gmail.com>> wrote:

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 10:03 PM Sergio Manzi mailto:s...@smz.it>> wrote:
> I have the same problem for some shop categories which are
not part of the US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is
in no way similar to a US "deli" shop...

Hi, the wiki specifically mentions this and suggests a
different way
of tagging American delis:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddeli

-- 
Michal Fabík


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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Let me clarify the meaning of those Russian words
"пруд" - is usually a natural but modified by a man body of water which is
smaller than lake. this is usually translated as "pond"
"копанка" - is a very small body of water, escavated by an individual
family for private fishing, usually of a square shape about 10x20 meters in
size.

Making additional subcategories makes sense only when they are commonly
recognized.
Adding language sepecific tag would work better here in my mind:
water=pond + water:ru=копанка
this way we preserve the generic categorization and let it be expanded for
local purpose.

With regards to "озеро" (lake) it is even more complecated. In Russian we
may call "озеро" both natural and man-modified bodies of water.
So both water=lake and water=pond can be called "озеро".
The afore-mentioned solution could solve it:
water=lake + water:ru=озеро
water=pond + water:ru=озеро

Another solution as suggested in the original post is to introduce some
generic (category independent) tag like "name:prefix/postfix" or
"type:" etc. for such things.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 04:17, Joseph Eisenberg :
> For example, in America we can call a waterway=stream a “brook”, “creek”,
> “run” and several other things. These waterways will be tagged
> waterway=stream or =river (depending on size) with name=“Bull Run”,
> =“Walker Creek”, =“Johnson’s Brook”, etc.
> We don’t use waterway=creek or waterway=run because there is no consistent
> difference between these. In fact in Standard British English a Creek is
> often a tidal channel in a salt marsh or mangroves.

If you put “brook”, “creek”, “run” etc. in the name field you will
get tautology in search results like: "stream Blue creek". So either all
objects should have their category in the name field and the search engine
will not add anything or no objects should have category in the name fields
and the search engine will take the category from some other field and
append it to name.
E.g. assume you have name=Blue + waterway=stream + waterway:en=creek, you
search for "Blue" and get "Blue creek".

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 10:26, Johnparis :

> Thanks, Michal. Following that link led me to:
>
> shop=butcher + butcher=pork
>
> which specifically mentions charcuterie. Presumably covers this too.
>
> Best,
>
> John
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:18 AM Michal Fabík 
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 10:03 PM Sergio Manzi  wrote:
>> > I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of
>> the US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a
>> US "deli" shop...
>>
>> Hi, the wiki specifically mentions this and suggests a different way
>> of tagging American delis:
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddeli
>>
>> --
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>>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread Johnparis

Thanks, Michal. Following that link led me to:

shop=butcher + butcher=pork

which specifically mentions charcuterie. Presumably covers this too.

Best,

John


On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:18 AM Michal Fabík  wrote:

> On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 10:03 PM Sergio Manzi  wrote:
> > I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of
> the US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a
> US "deli" shop...
>
> Hi, the wiki specifically mentions this and suggests a different way
> of tagging American delis:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddeli
>
> --
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick

On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 17:06, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 5. Dec 2018, at 22:02, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
> >
> > I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of
> the US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a
> US "deli" shop...
>
>
> indeed there could be room to add a category or subcategory for these.
> It is similar to a French charcuterie though, do they have a specific tag?
>

Would it work as
shop=deli
deli_type=salumeria / charcuterie / whatever the local name is? !

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread Michal Fabík

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 10:03 PM Sergio Manzi  wrote:
> I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the 
> US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US 
> "deli" shop...

Hi, the wiki specifically mentions this and suggests a different way
of tagging American delis:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Ddeli

-- 
Michal Fabík

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer



sent from a phone

> On 5. Dec 2018, at 22:02, Sergio Manzi  wrote:
> 
> I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the 
> US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US 
> "deli" shop...


indeed there could be room to add a category or subcategory for these. 
It is similar to a French charcuterie though, do they have a specific tag?

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Joseph, I take note of your opinion (/but I beg to differ as I was thinking in 
a general/theoretical way and not specifically to the example brought on by 
Eugene/).

Just let me clarify that in my examples the English tag were always present 
(/there were always water=pond/): *that was on purpose* as I never thought 
about features tagged by language-specific tags *only*.

Cheers,

Sergio


On 2018-12-06 02:16, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> It’s difficult enough that Indonesians have to understand English to use 
> OpenStreetMap effectively, or at least have to find English-based tags that 
> match Indonesian words. But if we encourage inventing tagging things in 
> hundreds of languages it will become even more difficult to use this global 
> database.
>
> I’d suggest that the original poster, Eugene Podshivaliv, or other Russian 
> language speakers, talk about what defines the difference between the two 
> types of pond, “пруд” and “копанка”, and then make a new subtag for pond=*
> If there is no better word we could even use pond=копанка for example, but I 
> suspect that it could be translated.
>
> If there is no consistent difference between the two words, then a new tag 
> should not be used.
>
> For example, in America we can call a waterway=stream a “brook”, “creek”, 
> “run” and several other things. These waterways will be tagged 
> waterway=stream or =river (depending on size) with name=“Bull Run”, =“Walker 
> Creek”, =“Johnson’s Brook”, etc. 
>
> We don’t use waterway=creek or waterway=run because there is no consistent 
> difference between these. In fact in Standard British English a Creek is 
> often a tidal channel in a salt marsh or mangroves.
>
> OSM tags should have a consistent definition.
>
> On the other hand, a name can contain whatever the feature is called locally, 
> and this can include pond, lake, mere, tarn, brook, stream, creek, run, etc.
>
> So it would be best to use one of the many existing name tags to include the 
> local term, which is often considered part of the name. 
>
> Eg, alt_name:ru=, loc_name=, official_name= etc, as appropriate based on 
> local usage.
>
> -Joseph
>
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:47 AM Sergio Manzi  > wrote:
>
> I mean, in a more general way and going back to the pond case,
>
> object 1:
>
> natural=water
> water=pond
> water:RU=пруд
>
> object 2
>
> natural=water
> water=pond
> water:RU=копанка
>
> would respect both *our *sensibility to "see" the two objects as ponds 
> and *their *sensibility to "see" the two as whatever they think they are.
>
>
> On 2018-12-06 01:37, Sergio Manzi wrote:
>>
>> In this case I think the "alt_name:ru" tag solution could be a very good 
>> solution (/but I leave this to our Russian friend to decide.../), but why do 
>> you see that preferable to the water:ru=озеро solution?
>>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

It’s difficult enough that Indonesians have to understand English to use
OpenStreetMap effectively, or at least have to find English-based tags that
match Indonesian words. But if we encourage inventing tagging things in
hundreds of languages it will become even more difficult to use this global
database.

I’d suggest that the original poster, Eugene Podshivaliv, or other Russian
language speakers, talk about what defines the difference between the two
types of pond, “пруд” and “копанка”, and then make a new subtag for pond=*
If there is no better word we could even use pond=копанка for example, but
I suspect that it could be translated.

If there is no consistent difference between the two words, then a new tag
should not be used.

For example, in America we can call a waterway=stream a “brook”, “creek”,
“run” and several other things. These waterways will be tagged
waterway=stream or =river (depending on size) with name=“Bull Run”,
=“Walker Creek”, =“Johnson’s Brook”, etc.

We don’t use waterway=creek or waterway=run because there is no consistent
difference between these. In fact in Standard British English a Creek is
often a tidal channel in a salt marsh or mangroves.

OSM tags should have a consistent definition.

On the other hand, a name can contain whatever the feature is called
locally, and this can include pond, lake, mere, tarn, brook, stream, creek,
run, etc.

So it would be best to use one of the many existing name tags to include
the local term, which is often considered part of the name.

Eg, alt_name:ru=, loc_name=, official_name= etc, as appropriate based on
local usage.

-Joseph

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 9:47 AM Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> I mean, in a more general way and going back to the pond case,
>
> object 1:
>
> natural=water
> water=pond
> water:RU=пруд
>
> object 2
>
> natural=water
> water=pond
> water:RU=копанка
>
> would respect both *our *sensibility to "see" the two objects as ponds
> and *their *sensibility to "see" the two as whatever they think they are.
>
>
> On 2018-12-06 01:37, Sergio Manzi wrote:
>
> In this case I think the "alt_name:ru" tag solution could be a very good
> solution (*but I leave this to our Russian friend to decide...*), but why
> do you see that preferable to the water:ru=озеро solution?
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Re: “once someone told me that Eskimo people have dozens of different names
for "snow"”

It’s a bit complex, starting with defining “Eskimo”:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eskimo_words_for_snow

Many Trans-New-Guinean languages here will use only one word for all water
features, eg river, lake, spring, swamp are all “ok” meaning “water”. But
of course they all understand that there is a difference between a flowing
river and standing water in a lake.

Fortunately English has an an unusually large vocabulary and is amenable to
borrowing words, so it’s usually possible to invent a good tag for OSM
purposes, based on English.
On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:56 AM Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> Naaahhh... just "complex*" *or* "*complicated"  (*I don't know which one
> is better in English*)...:-)
> On 2018-12-06 00:48, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> The real world is messy.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Naaahhh... just "complex/" /or/"/complicated"  (/I don't know which one is 
better in English/)...    :-)

On 2018-12-06 00:48, Paul Allen wrote:
> The real world is messy.
>

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread Paul Allen

On Wed, Dec 5, 2018 at 11:43 PM Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> so maybe there could be two things that for me and you are both a "pond",
> but for a Russian are two different things that must be distinguished...
>

It's entirely possible.  I believe that Russian uses a single word for both
apes and monkeys.  That's
not geographic, but it shows that some languages/cultures make distinctions
that others do not.

The real world is messy.

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

/air == water/ is one of those things that makes me really smile and think on 
how wonderfully diverse we are...

but your examples are different to what I thought. In my examples it would be:

natural:ID=air
water:ID=danau

which I understand it would be overkill and probably better served by automatic 
translation.

But you know, different languages/cultures have different sensibilities on how 
two things may be diverse (/once someone told me that Eskimo people have dozens 
of different names for "snow"/), so maybe there could be two things that for me 
and you are both a "pond", but for a Russian are two different things that must 
be distinguished...


On 2018-12-06 00:28, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> Assuming that “озеро” is a more or less direct translation of “lake”, then 
> the Russian use is going to have to search for “water=lake”, though I hope 
> someone will make a translation interface for Overpass Turbo that will 
> understand natural language queries.
>
> You wouldn’t suggest that I add tags such as “alam=air” and “air=danau” to 
> every lake in your country so that Indonesians can search in their own 
> language, perhaps?
>
> (That’s “natural=water” and “water=lake” in Bahasa Indonesia. Yes, “air” 
> means “water”)
>
> -Joseph
>
> On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:19 AM Sergio Manzi  > wrote:
>
> I understand your concerns and tend to agree, but how would you manage 
> the situation where a Russian want to name the lake as it is known in his 
> language, just "Байкал" (/assuming this is the case.../), but also wanting to 
> find it with the "озеро" (lake) keyword?
>
> On 2018-12-06 00:12, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>> But I don’t see a need to translate water=lake into Russian; lest we 
>> have to do this for every tag in every language. But I believe the Editor 
>> applications, like JOSM and ID, will provide a Russian translation for 
>> mappers.
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Assuming that “озеро” is a more or less direct translation of “lake”, then
the Russian use is going to have to search for “water=lake”, though I hope
someone will make a translation interface for Overpass Turbo that will
understand natural language queries.

You wouldn’t suggest that I add tags such as “alam=air” and “air=danau” to
every lake in your country so that Indonesians can search in their own
language, perhaps?

(That’s “natural=water” and “water=lake” in Bahasa Indonesia. Yes, “air”
means “water”)

-Joseph

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:19 AM Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> I understand your concerns and tend to agree, but how would you manage the
> situation where a Russian want to name the lake as it is known in his
> language, just "Байкал" (*assuming this is the case...*), but also
> wanting to find it with the "озеро" (lake) keyword?
> On 2018-12-06 00:12, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
>
> But I don’t see a need to translate water=lake into Russian; lest we have
> to do this for every tag in every language. But I believe the Editor
> applications, like JOSM and ID, will provide a Russian translation for
> mappers.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Probably should be

name=Байкал
name:en=Lake Baikal
Etc.

But I don’t see a need to translate water=lake into Russian; lest we have
to do this for every tag in every language. But I believe the Editor
applications, like JOSM and ID, will provide a Russian translation for
mappers.

 Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 8:07 AM Sergio Manzi  wrote:

> I understand the name of Lake Baikal in Russian is "Байкал", without the "
> озерo" attribute, but you want to be able to search for озеро as well:
> would the following be acceptable/valid?
>
> water=lake
> water:RU=озеро
> name=Lake Baikal
> name:RU=Байкал
> name:FR=Lac Baïkal
>
> On 2018-12-05 23:41, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>
> Marc and OSMDoudou,
> I did see that in France they put their local school categories into
> "school:FR" tag but do you think this approach can be propogated for all
> other categories?
> E.g. in Russian there are different types of man-made small bodies of
> water. Will it work to denote them as water:RU=пруд and water:RU=копанка
> instead of the generic water=pond?
>
> Graeme,
>
>> When you say "you get results which differ a lot from what is locally
>> called a "lake".", do you mean what is called a lake in Russia,
>> or what is called a lake in the country you are searching in?
>
> I mean when you search for "water=lake" tag you don't necesseraly get
> "озеро" (which is usually tranlated from Russian as "lake"). So unless you
> have "озеро" in the name tag you will never find all these objects which
> are called "озеро" in Russian.
>
>> Because, if you search for "lake" in Australia, you will find a lot of
>> references to salt lakes, possibly dry, that may only actually have water
>> in them very rarely,
>> or in some cases, never in human memory! But they are still called lakes,
>> the same as the "normal" inland bodies of water.
>
> There is intermitent=yes tag to denote dry lakes as far as I remember.
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 01:04, Sergio Manzi :
>
>> you're probably right, but it would nonetheless be the "*child of a
>> lesser God*" compared to a "deli" in New York, USA...
>>
>>
>> On 2018-12-05 22:51, Dave F wrote:
>>
>> Going off topic, but you /can/ tag it as "shop=salumeria", it will still
>> be searchable & will be displayed on the standard map with its name & a dot.
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Re:
> “when you search for "water=lake" tag you don't necesseraly get "озеро"
(which is usually tranlated from Russian as "lake").

> So unless you have "озеро" in the name tag you will never find all these
objects which are called "озеро" in Russian.

Ok, so you’ve noticed that many lakes are tagged as natural=water only,
correct? It is recommended to add water=lake, but because natural=water is
sufficient to get a water area to render on most maps, I believe many
mappers don’t bother to add the more precise tags.

Re:
> “in Russian there are different types of man-made small bodies of water.
> “Will it work to denote them as water:RU=пруд and water:RU=копанка
instead of the generic water=pond?”

I don’t know Russian and Google Translate is not helping, but I would
recommend tagging all small man-made ponds as natural=water plus
water=pond. If пруд and копанка are two types of pond that can be clearly
distinguished, then you could try to translate these words and make up a
sub-category for ponds, eg pond=копанка or better pond=<копанка translated
into British English>, which could be added in addition to water=pond.

(Also note that larger artificial water bodies are called reservoirs in
English rather than ponds, so there is already one distinction)

Could you describe the physical difference between a пруд and a копанка?

On Thu, Dec 6, 2018 at 7:51 AM marc marc  wrote:

> Le 05. 12. 18 à 23:41, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> > I did see that in France they put their local school categories into
> > "school:FR" tag but do you think this approach can be propogated for all
> > other categories?
>
> school:FR is a visible sign of a failure of the global proposal for
> school reform at the global level, so no, I really wouldn't advise
> to do it again.
> I think it is more interesting to try to find a global criterion to make
> subcategories, otherwise we end up with one osm per country instead of
> one global osm
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

I understand the name of Lake Baikal in Russian is "Байкал", without the 
"озерo" attribute, but you want to be able to search for озеро as well: would 
the following be acceptable/valid?

water=lake
water:RU=озеро
name=Lake Baikal
name:RU=Байкал
name:FR=Lac Baïkal

On 2018-12-05 23:41, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
> Marc and OSMDoudou,
> I did see that in France they put their local school categories into 
> "school:FR" tag but do you think this approach can be propogated for all 
> other categories?
> E.g. in Russian there are different types of man-made small bodies of water. 
> Will it work to denote them as water:RU=пруд and water:RU=копанка instead of 
> the generic water=pond?
>
> Graeme,
>
> When you say "you get results which differ a lot from what is locally 
> called a "lake".", do you mean what is called a lake in Russia, 
> or what is called a lake in the country you are searching in?
>
> I mean when you search for "water=lake" tag you don't necesseraly get "озеро" 
> (which is usually tranlated from Russian as "lake"). So unless you have 
> "озеро" in the name tag you will never find all these objects which are 
> called "озеро" in Russian.
>
> Because, if you search for "lake" in Australia, you will find a lot of 
> references to salt lakes, possibly dry, that may only actually have water in 
> them very rarely, 
> or in some cases, never in human memory! But they are still called lakes, 
> the same as the "normal" inland bodies of water.
>
> There is intermitent=yes tag to denote dry lakes as far as I remember.
>
> чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 01:04, Sergio Manzi mailto:s...@smz.it>>:
>
> you're probably right, but it would nonetheless be the "/child of a 
> lesser God/" compared to a "deli" in New York, USA...
>
>
> On 2018-12-05 22:51, Dave F wrote:
>
>> Going off topic, but you /can/ tag it as "shop=salumeria", it will still 
>> be searchable & will be displayed on the standard map with its name & a dot.
>
>


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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread marc marc

Le 05. 12. 18 à 23:41, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> I did see that in France they put their local school categories into 
> "school:FR" tag but do you think this approach can be propogated for all 
> other categories?

school:FR is a visible sign of a failure of the global proposal for 
school reform at the global level, so no, I really wouldn't advise
to do it again.
I think it is more interesting to try to find a global criterion to make 
subcategories, otherwise we end up with one osm per country instead of 
one global osm
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Marc and OSMDoudou,
I did see that in France they put their local school categories into
"school:FR" tag but do you think this approach can be propogated for all
other categories?
E.g. in Russian there are different types of man-made small bodies of
water. Will it work to denote them as water:RU=пруд and water:RU=копанка
instead of the generic water=pond?

Graeme,

> When you say "you get results which differ a lot from what is locally
> called a "lake".", do you mean what is called a lake in Russia,
> or what is called a lake in the country you are searching in?

I mean when you search for "water=lake" tag you don't necesseraly get
"озеро" (which is usually tranlated from Russian as "lake"). So unless you
have "озеро" in the name tag you will never find all these objects which
are called "озеро" in Russian.

> Because, if you search for "lake" in Australia, you will find a lot of
> references to salt lakes, possibly dry, that may only actually have water
> in them very rarely,
> or in some cases, never in human memory! But they are still called lakes,
> the same as the "normal" inland bodies of water.

There is intermitent=yes tag to denote dry lakes as far as I remember.

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 01:04, Sergio Manzi :

> you're probably right, but it would nonetheless be the "*child of a
> lesser God*" compared to a "deli" in New York, USA...
>
>
> On 2018-12-05 22:51, Dave F wrote:
>
> Going off topic, but you /can/ tag it as "shop=salumeria", it will still
> be searchable & will be displayed on the standard map with its name & a dot.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

you're probably right, but it would nonetheless be the "/child of a lesser 
God/" compared to a "deli" in New York, USA...


On 2018-12-05 22:51, Dave F wrote:

> Going off topic, but you /can/ tag it as "shop=salumeria", it will still be 
> searchable & will be displayed on the standard map with its name & a dot.
>


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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread Dave F

Going off topic, but you /can/ tag it as "shop=salumeria", it will still 
be searchable & will be displayed on the standard map with its name & a dot.


DaveF

On 05/12/2018 21:26, Sergio Manzi wrote:


But maybe I've misunderstood your question: if you where asking how I 
would like to tag a salumeria, the answer for me would be really 
simple: "shop=salumeria"


On 2018-12-05 22:23, Sergio Manzi wrote:


There is no way I can think of: for lack of better tagging some very 
different shop categories (/very different in our culture..//./), 
like the aforementioned "salumeria", "rosticeria", "polleria", the 
generic "alimentari", and many others, have all been tagged as 
"shop=deli", so we have "/lost part of our traditions/" for the sake 
of simplification and the urge of a methodical tagging schema which 
is rooted in a different culture.


It is sad, I guess..


On 2018-12-05 22:10, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
What is your solution for denoting "salumeria" shop so that it was 
possible to grab all shops of that kind from the database?



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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick

On Thu, 6 Dec 2018 at 04:04, Eugene Podshivalov  wrote:

> if you cannot perform such simple tasks with it like getting a list of for
> example lakes within a specific country? You search for water=lake but you
> get results which differ a lot from what is locally called a "lake".
>

When you say "you get results which differ a lot from what is locally
called a "lake".", do you mean what is called a lake in Russia,
or what is called a lake in the country you are searching in?

Because, if you search for "lake" in Australia, you will find a lot of
references to salt lakes, possibly dry, that may only actually have water
in them *very* rarely,
or in some cases, never in human memory! But they are still called lakes,
the same as the "normal" inland bodies of water.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread marc marc

Le 05. 12. 18 à 20:20, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> Marc,
> 
> the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
> the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are
> located,
> he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its
> name. 
> 
> Would you be understoon if you ask someone "where is 'The 4 cantons""?

not at all !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantons_of_Switzerland
Switzerland has 26 cantons and if you ask where the 4 cantons are, you 
will be asked which one ? those from the north? those speaking French? 
those from the plain? in short, "the 4 cantons" mean nothing.
the lake of the 4 cantons+ is the real and complete name of a lake.
it is so called because at one point in the past, it was spread over
4 cantons. but nothing at this place is called "4 cantons" without
the word lake. and currently the lake is spread over 5 cantons :)

Le 05. 12. 18 à 20:31, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
 > How do you find all french ecoles?

may I ask you if it's your first use of osm ?
to look for all french ecoles : amenity=school in France
for ex with overpass https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Ej3
you may also look for all french "ecoles" without a name in osm!
if you want to said that amenity=school return several subtype
then you need a "sub-tag", France do it with school:FR
and maybe one day, a international sub-tag 'll be used
But in all case, it's fully wrong to parse the name tag for this.

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

... or maybe a better solution, if we would like the kind of shop to be 
comprhensible to people of different culture, then I would establish a 
namespace for food shops and then specify the (/locally relevant/) kind of 
shop, like eg. shop:food=salumeria.

On 2018-12-05 22:26, Sergio Manzi wrote:
>
> But maybe I've misunderstood your question: if you where asking how I would 
> like to tag a salumeria, the answer for me would be really simple: 
> "shop=salumeria"
>
> On 2018-12-05 22:23, Sergio Manzi wrote:
>>
>> There is no way I can think of: for lack of better tagging some very 
>> different shop categories (/very different in our culture..//./), like the 
>> aforementioned "salumeria", "rosticeria", "polleria", the generic 
>> "alimentari", and many others, have all been tagged as "shop=deli", so we 
>> have "/lost part of our traditions/" for the sake of simplification and the 
>> urge of a methodical tagging schema which is rooted in a different culture.
>>
>> It is sad, I guess..
>>
>>
>> On 2018-12-05 22:10, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>>> What is your solution for denoting "salumeria" shop so that it was possible 
>>> to grab all shops of that kind from the database?


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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

There is no way I can think of: for lack of better tagging some very different 
shop categories (/very different in our culture..//./), like the aforementioned 
"salumeria", "rosticeria", "polleria", the generic "alimentari", and many 
others, have all been tagged as "shop=deli", so we have "/lost part of our 
traditions/" for the sake of simplification and the urge of a methodical 
tagging schema which is rooted in a different culture.

It is sad, I guess..

On 2018-12-05 22:10, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
> What is your solution for denoting "salumeria" shop so that it was possible 
> to grab all shops of that kind from the database?

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread OSMDoudou

So, are you then asking how to find this school or any other, without searching 
through the name tag ?

Then, search for elements tagged with amenity=school.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity=school

And if you want to search elementary schools, search for school=* or 
isced:level=* (provided it’s tagged).

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:school
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:isced:level

This school happens to be tagged with school:FR=élémentaire.

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Sergio,
>
> I don't think one should try to frame what is a local French reality, an 
> "École
> primaire", into an US or UK based context

The is no need to do it. But there should be some generally recognized
concept for doing it locally for local context.
What is your solution for denoting "salumeria" shop so that it was possible
to grab all shops of that kind from the database?

чт, 6 дек. 2018 г. в 00:03, Sergio Manzi :

> Once again, reality is complex and multifaced: I don't think one should
> try to frame what is a local French reality, an "École primaire", into an
> US or UK based context: let the French decide...
>
> I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the
> US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US
> "deli" shop...
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salumeria
>
>
> On 2018-12-05 21:45, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>
> It looks like I've directed you a bit off the initial topic to the
> definition of proper name.
> Let us look at it from the other side. Assume we all agree that "École
> primaire des Quatre Fils" is the proper name.
> Is there some common approach for denoting locally recognized categories
> which differ from commonly approved tags?
> E.g. how to denote the " École primaire" category?
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

P.S.: ... but if I want my /salumeria /to show up on the map, I *have to* "/lie 
for the rendering/" and tag it as a shop=deli: but'I'm not happy at all...

On 2018-12-05 22:02, Sergio Manzi wrote:
>
> Once again, reality is complex and multifaced: I don't think one should try 
> to frame what is a local French reality, an "École primaire", into an US or 
> UK based context: let the French decide...
>
> I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the 
> US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US 
> "deli" shop...
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salumeria
>
>
> On 2018-12-05 21:45, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
>> It looks like I've directed you a bit off the initial topic to the 
>> definition of proper name.
>> Let us look at it from the other side. Assume we all agree that "École 
>> primaire des Quatre Fils" is the proper name.
>> Is there some common approach for denoting locally recognized categories 
>> which differ from commonly approved tags?
>> E.g. how to denote the " École primaire" category?


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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Once again, reality is complex and multifaced: I don't think one should try to 
frame what is a local French reality, an "École primaire", into an US or UK 
based context: let the French decide...

I have the same problem for some shop categories which are not part of the 
US/UK tradition: an Italian "salumeria" [1] is in no way similar to a US "deli" 
shop...

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salumeria

On 2018-12-05 21:45, Eugene Podshivalov wrote:
> It looks like I've directed you a bit off the initial topic to the definition 
> of proper name.
> Let us look at it from the other side. Assume we all agree that "École 
> primaire des Quatre Fils" is the proper name.
> Is there some common approach for denoting locally recognized categories 
> which differ from commonly approved tags?
> E.g. how to denote the " École primaire" category?

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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

It looks like I've directed you a bit off the initial topic to the
definition of proper name.
Let us look at it from the other side. Assume we all agree that "École
primaire des Quatre Fils" is the proper name.
Is there some common approach for denoting locally recognized categories
which differ from commonly approved tags?
E.g. how to denote the " École primaire" category?

ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 23:10, Imre Samu :

> > If I live next to a place called 'Hudson Bay' then I put name='Hudson
> Bay' even if some may argue it may not be a Bay.
>
> We can link most of the objects to the Wikidata
> https://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/details.php?place_id=1282777   ->
> wikidata=Q3040  ->  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3040 ->   *instance of
> ["inland sea" ;  "bay" ]*
>
> So if somebody don't like the osm categories ( for query ),   it is
> possible to use the Wikidata categories
>
> Eiffel tower :   https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q243
> instance of
> -  lattice tower
> -  observation tower
> -  landmark
> -  tourist destination
>
> So with linked data (wikidata, lau numbers )  - we can extend the power of
> the OSM
> One of the example:  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sophox  ( some
> query is not working yet )
>
> Imre
>
>
> Topographe Fou  ezt írta (időpont: 2018. dec.
> 5., Sze, 20:07):
>
>> I don't see as many issues in your exemple... If École or Musée is part
>> of the name, I don't see why we shall invent a truncated name. It's not
>> because the type is part of the name that we shall remove it.
>>
>> Let's take a more famous example: 'Arc de Triomphe' is the name of a
>> landmark in Paris but it is also an 'Arc' (Arch in English). Same for 'Tour
>> Eiffel' (which is a Tour, i.e. a Tower, but also an antenna). I don't see
>> any solution in renaming them Eiffel or Triomphe. Instead we use the name
>> for the 'name' and add their types (a Tower, an arch, a landmark, an
>> antenna...) in attributes.
>>
>> And if one needs to list all Lakes in a given country then you have your
>> answer: If it is on a geological basis, then he will look for attributes
>> others than 'name'. If it is on a 'per use' basis, i.e. he wants to know
>> which water area is called lake no matter if it is really one or not, then
>> he will look in the name considering all possible translations. If I live
>> next to a place called 'Hudson Bay' then I put name='Hudson Bay' even if
>> some may argue it may not be a Bay.
>>
>> Consequently I don't see a real issue there.
>>
>> Yours
>>
>> LeTopographeFou
>> *De:* yauge...@gmail.com
>> *Envoyé:* 5 décembre 2018 7:37 PM
>> *À:* tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> *Répondre à:* tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> *Objet:* Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?
>>
>> Martin,
>>
>>> this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see
>>> places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I
>>> admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name,
>>> for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
>>> At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with
>>> specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)
>>
>> The name tag is abused very often and systematically. Let's take at look
>> at this spot in the centre of Paris
>> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
>> You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium,
>> hotel, school (in French).
>> As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have
>> to apply algorithms for clearing category names from the name field to get
>> just proper names.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Eugene
>>
>>
>> ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 20:25, Martin Koppenhoefer :
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Am Mi., 5. Dez. 2018 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Eugene Podshivalov <
>>> yauge...@gmail.com>:
>>>
>>>> I invision the following solution here.
>>>>
>>>> * First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see
>>> places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I
>>> admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name,
>>> for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
>>> At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with
>>> specific meaning (loc_name, sho

Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread Imre Samu

> If I live next to a place called 'Hudson Bay' then I put name='Hudson
Bay' even if some may argue it may not be a Bay.

We can link most of the objects to the Wikidata
https://nominatim.openstreetmap.org/details.php?place_id=1282777   ->
wikidata=Q3040  ->  https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q3040 ->   *instance of
["inland sea" ;  "bay" ]*

So if somebody don't like the osm categories ( for query ),   it is
possible to use the Wikidata categories

Eiffel tower :   https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q243
instance of
-  lattice tower
-  observation tower
-  landmark
-  tourist destination

So with linked data (wikidata, lau numbers )  - we can extend the power of
the OSM
One of the example:  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Sophox  ( some
query is not working yet )

Imre


Topographe Fou  ezt írta (időpont: 2018. dec.
5., Sze, 20:07):

> I don't see as many issues in your exemple... If École or Musée is part of
> the name, I don't see why we shall invent a truncated name. It's not
> because the type is part of the name that we shall remove it.
>
> Let's take a more famous example: 'Arc de Triomphe' is the name of a
> landmark in Paris but it is also an 'Arc' (Arch in English). Same for 'Tour
> Eiffel' (which is a Tour, i.e. a Tower, but also an antenna). I don't see
> any solution in renaming them Eiffel or Triomphe. Instead we use the name
> for the 'name' and add their types (a Tower, an arch, a landmark, an
> antenna...) in attributes.
>
> And if one needs to list all Lakes in a given country then you have your
> answer: If it is on a geological basis, then he will look for attributes
> others than 'name'. If it is on a 'per use' basis, i.e. he wants to know
> which water area is called lake no matter if it is really one or not, then
> he will look in the name considering all possible translations. If I live
> next to a place called 'Hudson Bay' then I put name='Hudson Bay' even if
> some may argue it may not be a Bay.
>
> Consequently I don't see a real issue there.
>
> Yours
>
> LeTopographeFou
> *De:* yauge...@gmail.com
> *Envoyé:* 5 décembre 2018 7:37 PM
> *À:* tagging@openstreetmap.org
> *Répondre à:* tagging@openstreetmap.org
> *Objet:* Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?
>
> Martin,
>
>> this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see
>> places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I
>> admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name,
>> for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
>> At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with
>> specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)
>
> The name tag is abused very often and systematically. Let's take at look
> at this spot in the centre of Paris
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium, hotel,
> school (in French).
> As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have
> to apply algorithms for clearing category names from the name field to get
> just proper names.
>
> Regards,
> Eugene
>
>
> ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 20:25, Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
>>
>>
>> Am Mi., 5. Dez. 2018 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Eugene Podshivalov <
>> yauge...@gmail.com>:
>>
>>> I invision the following solution here.
>>>
>>> * First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.
>>>
>>
>>
>> this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see
>> places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I
>> admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name,
>> for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
>> At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with
>> specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)
>>
>>
>>
>>> * Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific
>>> category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally
>>> introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note
>>> that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper
>>> name matters.
>>>
>>
>>
>> I agree this could make sense, I am doing it for places where you can eat
>> with this tag and local values:
>> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/restaurant%3Atype%3Ait#values
>>
>> I would not expect it useful for any kind of things, but there are fields
>> with cultural specialties where I agree that it would be hard to

Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

OSMDoudou,

> Do you mean "École primaire des Quatre Fils" doesn't have a proper name ?
> What would be a better name ?

I would say that the category is "École primaire" and the proper name is
"des Quatre Fils" but the the commonly used phrase is all together.
The question was about some general approach for seaching objects of a
particular category? How do you find all french ecoles? By name tag? How do
you find other objects which do not have category name in the name tag then?

ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 21:58, OSMDoudou <
19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com>:

> > Let's take at look at this spot in the centre of Paris
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> > You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium,
> hotel, school (in French).
> > As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have
> to apply algorithms for clearing
> > category names from the name field to get just proper names
>
> Not sure I understand.
>
> Do you mean "École primaire des Quatre Fils" doesn't have a proper name ?
>
> What would be a better name ?
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Marc,
>
> the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
> the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located,
> he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.

Would you be understoon if you ask someone "where is 'The 4 cantons""?

ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 21:56, marc marc :

> Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> > The name tag is abused very often and systematically.
> > https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
>
> just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily
> mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"
>
> the same for the lakes.
> the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
> and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
> But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of
> the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located,
> he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread Topographe Fou

I don't see as many issues in your exemple... If École or Musée is part of the name, I don't see why we shall invent a truncated name. It's not because the type is part of the name that we shall remove it.Let's take a more famous example: 'Arc de Triomphe' is the name of a landmark in Paris but it is also an 'Arc' (Arch in English). Same for 'Tour Eiffel' (which is a Tour, i.e. a Tower, but also an antenna). I don't see any solution in renaming them Eiffel or Triomphe. Instead we use the name for the 'name' and add their types (a Tower, an arch, a landmark, an antenna...) in attributes.And if one needs to list all Lakes in a given country then you have your answer: If it is on a geological basis, then he will look for attributes others than 'name'. If it is on a 'per use' basis, i.e. he wants to know which water area is called lake no matter if it is really one or not, then he will look in the name considering all possible translations. If I live next to a place called 'Hudson Bay' then I put name='Hudson Bay' even if some may argue it may not be a Bay.Consequently I don't see a real issue there.YoursLeTopographeFou De: yauge...@gmail.comEnvoyé: 5 décembre 2018 7:37 PMÀ: tagging@openstreetmap.orgRépondre à: tagging@openstreetmap.orgObjet: Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database? Martin,this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name, for some kind of things, not even in the real world.At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)The name tag is abused very often and systematically. Let's take at look at this spot in the centre of Parishttps://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium, hotel, school (in French).As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have to apply algorithms for clearing category names from the name field to get just proper names.Regards,Eugeneср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 20:25, Martin Koppenhoefer <dieterdre...@gmail.com>:Am Mi., 5. Dez. 2018 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Eugene Podshivalov <yauge...@gmail.com>:I invision the following solution here.* First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name, for some kind of things, not even in the real world.At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.) * Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper name matters.I agree this could make sense, I am doing it for places where you can eat with this tag and local values:https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/restaurant%3Atype%3Ait#valuesI would not expect it useful for any kind of things, but there are fields with cultural specialties where I agree that it would be hard to agree on detailed categories on a global level, and still it might not make sense outside of a specific cultural context anyway.Cheers,Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread OSMDoudou

> Let's take at look at this spot in the centre of Paris
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
> You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium, hotel, 
> school (in French).
> As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have to 
> apply algorithms for clearing
> category names from the name field to get just proper names

Not sure I understand.

Do you mean "École primaire des Quatre Fils" doesn't have a proper name ?

What would be a better name ?


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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread marc marc

Le 05. 12. 18 à 19:36, Eugene Podshivalov a écrit :
> The name tag is abused very often and systematically.  
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028

just because a hotel's name contains the word hotel does not necessarily 
mean it is a false name. Some names are "hotêl abc" and not "abc"

the same for the lakes.
the lake near Geneva (France/Switzerland) is indeed called "Léman"
and it is a tautology (an error) to say Lake Léman.
But the "lake of the 4 cantons" in Switzerland is called the "lake of 
the 4 cantons". If you ask someone where "of the 4 cantons" are located, 
he don't understand what you're talking about because that not its name.
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

Martin,

> this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see
> places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I
> admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name,
> for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
> At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with
> specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)

The name tag is abused very often and systematically. Let's take at look at
this spot in the centre of Paris
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/48.86138/2.36028
You can see category names displayed everywhere there, e.g. musium, hotel,
school (in French).
As a result when you query OSM database for some category items you have to
apply algorithms for clearing category names from the name field to get
just proper names.

Regards,
Eugene


ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 20:25, Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
>
> Am Mi., 5. Dez. 2018 um 16:50 Uhr schrieb Eugene Podshivalov <
> yauge...@gmail.com>:
>
>> I invision the following solution here.
>>
>> * First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.
>>
>
>
> this is already the case. At least it should be like this, if you see
> places where the name tag is abused for descriptions you should fix it. I
> admit, it is not always possible to clearly tell which is the correct name,
> for some kind of things, not even in the real world.
> At least in OSM you can add alternative names, generically or with
> specific meaning (loc_name, short_name, etc.)
>
>
>
>> * Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific
>> category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally
>> introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note
>> that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper
>> name matters.
>>
>
>
> I agree this could make sense, I am doing it for places where you can eat
> with this tag and local values:
> https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/restaurant%3Atype%3Ait#values
>
> I would not expect it useful for any kind of things, but there are fields
> with cultural specialties where I agree that it would be hard to agree on
> detailed categories on a global level, and still it might not make sense
> outside of a specific cultural context anyway.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
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> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

François,
>
> This is nevertheless not related to the geospacial nor relational database
> type but it's localisation issues.

On one hand you are right, on the other hand how can you call OSM a
database if you cannot perform such simple tasks with it like getting a
list of for example lakes within a specific country? You search for
water=lake but you get results which differ a lot from what is locally
called a "lake".
Is there any approach which resolves this thing?

Regards,
Eugene

ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 20:40, François Lacombe :

> Thanks Eugene,
>
> That's a good example and I agree with you.
> This is nevertheless not related to the geospacial nor relational database
> type but it's localisation issues.
>
> Then I'm ok with you regarding name tags, it's hard to maintain at world
> scale and is often cluttered with specific local terms
>
> All the best
>
> François
>
> Le mer. 5 déc. 2018 à 18:35, Eugene Podshivalov  a
> écrit :
>
>> Hi François,
>> I guess you come from France, so let's me try to get some example
>> applicable to your location.
>> I do not know much about edicuation system in France but found out from
>> wiki that your school system consists of "ecole maternelle", "ecole
>> elementaire", "college" and "lycee".
>> How do you get all colleges in France from OSM database? amanity=college
>> tag which stands for a higher than university institution will not help you
>> here, will it? You defintely need some other tag for you local
>> categorizaiton of schools or you search by the respective word in the
>> "name" tag but the "name" tag does not always contain a category name.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Eugene
>>
>> ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 19:32, François Lacombe :
>>
>>> Hi Eugene,
>>>
>>> I don't get the link between geospatial db or not and the difficulties
>>> regarding the local side of tagging.
>>> The same issues can raise on geospatial db as well don't you ?
>>>
>>> All the best
>>>
>>> François
>>>
>>> Le mer. 5 déc. 2018 à 16:50, Eugene Podshivalov  a
>>> écrit :
>>>
 This email is a forward message of this forum topic
 https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=64704

 I guess this topic has been raised may times already but let me add to
 it.
 Right now OSM is a collection of dots and lines with some generic tags
 for rendering them on a map. They do compile into nice maps but does it
 really work when it comes to searching for objects of real life categories?
 Let's look into some examples.
 * place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling stand for
 settlements of some pupulation ranges. But each country has its own
 categorization of settlements which may absolutely differ from the
 suggested gradation.
 * waterway=river/stream are used for natural relatively large or small
 waterways. But the notion of river may differ from country to country and
 they may have a much wider range of categories then just these two ones.
 * amenity=school/university/college have some generic notion of
 secondary, higher and further edicution institutions. But again each
 country has it's own categorization of educational institutions and in some
 cases it even contradicts the suggested tag names, e.g. in Russia they have
 colleges as something intermediate between high school and university.

 To wrap it up it is hard to impossible to get objects of some real live
 category from OSM database in order for example to hight light them on a
 map or to list them in search results.

 There are two workarounds used right now. The first one is to bind some
 new tags to local categories e.g. school=high_school, school=college. This
 approach is very contradictary because it is recognized only locally and
 may conflict with notations in other countries.
 The second one is to put category name into "name" tag, e.g. "Liberty
 avenue", "Blue lake", "South park". This approach works pretty fine until
 you think of applying it to everything, e.g. "Manchester" would become
 "Manchester city", all shops would become "[name] shop" and will be
 rendered as such on maps or otherwise additional algorithms will need to be
 coded for rederers to decide whether to cut a category name from the
 displayed name or not for each particular country.

 I invision the following solution here.
 * First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.
 * Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific
 category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally
 introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note
 that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper
 name matters.
 * Thirdly, in order to make the life of renderers simple, introduce one
 more tag for holding the name which can be displayed on maps as is without
 any modifications, e.g.

Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

2018-12-05 Thread François Lacombe

Thanks Eugene,

That's a good example and I agree with you.
This is nevertheless not related to the geospacial nor relational database
type but it's localisation issues.

Then I'm ok with you regarding name tags, it's hard to maintain at world
scale and is often cluttered with specific local terms

All the best

François

Le mer. 5 déc. 2018 à 18:35, Eugene Podshivalov  a
écrit :

> Hi François,
> I guess you come from France, so let's me try to get some example
> applicable to your location.
> I do not know much about edicuation system in France but found out from
> wiki that your school system consists of "ecole maternelle", "ecole
> elementaire", "college" and "lycee".
> How do you get all colleges in France from OSM database? amanity=college
> tag which stands for a higher than university institution will not help you
> here, will it? You defintely need some other tag for you local
> categorizaiton of schools or you search by the respective word in the
> "name" tag but the "name" tag does not always contain a category name.
>
> Regards,
> Eugene
>
> ср, 5 дек. 2018 г. в 19:32, François Lacombe :
>
>> Hi Eugene,
>>
>> I don't get the link between geospatial db or not and the difficulties
>> regarding the local side of tagging.
>> The same issues can raise on geospatial db as well don't you ?
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> François
>>
>> Le mer. 5 déc. 2018 à 16:50, Eugene Podshivalov  a
>> écrit :
>>
>>> This email is a forward message of this forum topic
>>> https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=64704
>>>
>>> I guess this topic has been raised may times already but let me add to
>>> it.
>>> Right now OSM is a collection of dots and lines with some generic tags
>>> for rendering them on a map. They do compile into nice maps but does it
>>> really work when it comes to searching for objects of real life categories?
>>> Let's look into some examples.
>>> * place=city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling stand for settlements
>>> of some pupulation ranges. But each country has its own categorization of
>>> settlements which may absolutely differ from the suggested gradation.
>>> * waterway=river/stream are used for natural relatively large or small
>>> waterways. But the notion of river may differ from country to country and
>>> they may have a much wider range of categories then just these two ones.
>>> * amenity=school/university/college have some generic notion of
>>> secondary, higher and further edicution institutions. But again each
>>> country has it's own categorization of educational institutions and in some
>>> cases it even contradicts the suggested tag names, e.g. in Russia they have
>>> colleges as something intermediate between high school and university.
>>>
>>> To wrap it up it is hard to impossible to get objects of some real live
>>> category from OSM database in order for example to hight light them on a
>>> map or to list them in search results.
>>>
>>> There are two workarounds used right now. The first one is to bind some
>>> new tags to local categories e.g. school=high_school, school=college. This
>>> approach is very contradictary because it is recognized only locally and
>>> may conflict with notations in other countries.
>>> The second one is to put category name into "name" tag, e.g. "Liberty
>>> avenue", "Blue lake", "South park". This approach works pretty fine until
>>> you think of applying it to everything, e.g. "Manchester" would become
>>> "Manchester city", all shops would become "[name] shop" and will be
>>> rendered as such on maps or otherwise additional algorithms will need to be
>>> coded for rederers to decide whether to cut a category name from the
>>> displayed name or not for each particular country.
>>>
>>> I invision the following solution here.
>>> * First of all, the "name" tag should containt proper name only.
>>> * Secondly, introduce a new tag for the real life language specific
>>> category name. I know that "name:prefix/postfix" key was originally
>>> introduced for another purpose but it can be a candidate here as well. Note
>>> that in some languages the place of category name relative to the proper
>>> name matters.
>>> * Thirdly, in order to make the life of renderers simple, introduce one
>>> more tag for holding the name which can be displayed on maps as is without
>>> any modifications, e.g. "display_name". This tag may contain whatever
>>> content is considered locally appropriate specifically for rendering on
>>> maps. For example, it may contain proper name with category abbriviation
>>> like "r. Missisipi" or proper name with category full name like "Liberty
>>> avenue" or if an object has no proper name but is worth being labeled like
>>> "police station". Locally agreed upon rules should prevail here and if
>>> somebody needs another format he is free to utilize "name" and
>>> "name:prefix" tags the way he likes it.
>>> If proper name is considered good for rendering without any
>>> modifications like "Manchester" city then

Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?