RE: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

2010-03-02 Thread Amanda Rush
K this is a record. I was turned off by about the second line of this
guy's message. I totally get being angry about accessibility or the lack
thereof, but begging for signatures is like begging for charity. Neither
one works very well, and getting angry with the people you're trying to
get signatures/charity from isn't a good thing either. Also, IMO, (and
it's probably only my opinion, and we know what those are like, but this
is the crux of the entire accessibility fight), companies like this one
and every other one ignore these sorts of petitions because, even if every
single blind user were to call their bluff, we're not a big enough of
their market to matter as far as sales or whatever. And in the case of the
FS petition, we can all bitch and whine till we're out of breath, but the
fact is that 90% of their clientel is government contracts. So they can
pretty much do whatever, and the other AT companies will eventually go
along or go out of business, and so there's no real insentive for FS to do
anything positive. Note: I'm not a huge FS fan. At all. So I hope no one
takes this as rooting for them.

And wow, DJ Patty, haven't heard from you in *ages. I was wondering what
had happened to you. Good to see you're still around.

Amanda



-Original Message-
From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Dj
Paddy
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 17:35
To: talk2
Subject: RE: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

Guys just displaying understandable anger over loss of access.

Barry

-Original Message-
From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of
Brandon Hicks
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:45 PM
To: talk2
Subject: Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

Agreed. This message speaks of childish tantrums. Even the Freedom
Scientific petition didn't get much over a thousand signatures, if even
that. This one's not going to get much more. I thought about it until I
got to about the third line of the message.

Brandon

Stephen Clower wrote:
 So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can get
 them is to insult everybody? I won't sign now simply because of the
 author's attitude, despite his good intentions.

 Steve

 On 3/1/2010 2:12 PM, Onj wrote:
 I haven't seen a message on this list for months.  Why not let the
 content of this message speak for itself?

 From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNav ta...@talknav.com
 on Monday, March 01, 2010 6:02 PM

 A quick note to all of you who have, and those who as of yet have
 not signed
 the WFA user protest site.

 Before I start my message the link right here and now is
 www.talknav.com/protest

 Firstly, a note to all of you who have signed, thank you, but I have
 to at
 this stage say that it is way too few who have made this effort. We
are
 nearing 700, yet for Vodafone to take this seriously we need
thousands.

 To date we've not even got close to even the number of users of the
 application signing, let alone additional support.

 Can I especially ask those of you who either work with or for the
 organizations that supposedly represent us as blind folk, yes you
 lot, those
 of you at the RNIB, CNIB, AFB, NFB, etc, etc, you lot really have
 made me
 rather upset and irritated.

 To date I've posted two messages via each of your web-sites
 informing you
 all of our protest, has any one of you got back to me to ask for more
 detail, have you mass mailed your members, have you lobbied in our
 favour,
 have you, no sir. Is this an outrage, is this a complete lack of
 competence
 when it comes to supporting those who you claim to represent? This
 individual thinks so. So if you represent, or have a contact at your
 local
 blind organization please forward this message, we, or certainly I,
 am very,
 very disappointed in you all.

 As for those private individuals who have not yet signed, even if
 you do not
 own Access or a Symbian phone, your name should be on this list, the
 list
 says something about who we are and what we stand for as blind
 folks, it
 says that we will not lay down and be ignored whilst our tools to
 freedom
 and mobility are stolen from us. It says we have a voice and we are
 prepared
 to use it when necessary.

 This protest is about more than just Wayfinder Access, it is a
 symbol, now
 please, I urge you all, we need this link spreading, we need it
 sharing,
 Face Book pages, Twitter, those of you who produce pod casts,
 mailing lists
 etc, etc, if you believe in your freedom to mobility and your rights
to
 accessible products then make your mark.

 More than this, those you know need to say that they too are in
 support of
 our cause, so get your address book and forward this link,
 personalize it
 with a few lines of message, get the word out there.

 The protest site has a league table on it at the bottom of the public
 signatures page, it's dynamic and countries move about on the list.
 To date
 we've only had a tiny portion of blind people around

Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

2010-03-02 Thread Doug Langley
I'm glad to see someone else with a brain. No one ever takes these 
internet petitions seriously. I signed it but only because it can only 
help more than hurt. That being said, if people spent as much time 
working on a new solution instead of trying to save an old dieing one we 
would probably all be better off.  This is vodaphone. they hear from 
more people in a single hour than they will in this hole petition.  And 
all this petition is doing is asking for a reason why. so we can spend 3 
months getting 778 signatures so they can say, because it didnt make 
business sense. Thank you for contacting vodaphone we hope we can 
service you in the future.


On 3/2/2010 6:57 AM, Amanda Rush wrote:

K this is a record. I was turned off by about the second line of this
guy's message. I totally get being angry about accessibility or the lack
thereof, but begging for signatures is like begging for charity. Neither
one works very well, and getting angry with the people you're trying to
get signatures/charity from isn't a good thing either. Also, IMO, (and
it's probably only my opinion, and we know what those are like, but this
is the crux of the entire accessibility fight), companies like this one
and every other one ignore these sorts of petitions because, even if every
single blind user were to call their bluff, we're not a big enough of
their market to matter as far as sales or whatever. And in the case of the
FS petition, we can all bitch and whine till we're out of breath, but the
fact is that 90% of their clientel is government contracts. So they can
pretty much do whatever, and the other AT companies will eventually go
along or go out of business, and so there's no real insentive for FS to do
anything positive. Note: I'm not a huge FS fan. At all. So I hope no one
takes this as rooting for them.

And wow, DJ Patty, haven't heard from you in *ages. I was wondering what
had happened to you. Good to see you're still around.

Amanda



-Original Message-
From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of Dj
Paddy
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 17:35
To: talk2
Subject: RE: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

Guys just displaying understandable anger over loss of access.

Barry

-Original Message-
From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of
Brandon Hicks
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:45 PM
To: talk2
Subject: Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

Agreed. This message speaks of childish tantrums. Even the Freedom
Scientific petition didn't get much over a thousand signatures, if even
that. This one's not going to get much more. I thought about it until I
got to about the third line of the message.

Brandon

Stephen Clower wrote:
   

So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can get
them is to insult everybody? I won't sign now simply because of the
author's attitude, despite his good intentions.

Steve

On 3/1/2010 2:12 PM, Onj wrote:
 

I haven't seen a message on this list for months.  Why not let the
content of this message speak for itself?

From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNavta...@talknav.com
on Monday, March 01, 2010 6:02 PM

   

A quick note to all of you who have, and those who as of yet have
not signed
the WFA user protest site.

Before I start my message the link right here and now is
www.talknav.com/protest

Firstly, a note to all of you who have signed, thank you, but I have
to at
this stage say that it is way too few who have made this effort. We
 

are
   

nearing 700, yet for Vodafone to take this seriously we need
 

thousands.
   

To date we've not even got close to even the number of users of the
application signing, let alone additional support.

Can I especially ask those of you who either work with or for the
organizations that supposedly represent us as blind folk, yes you
lot, those
of you at the RNIB, CNIB, AFB, NFB, etc, etc, you lot really have
made me
rather upset and irritated.

To date I've posted two messages via each of your web-sites
informing you
all of our protest, has any one of you got back to me to ask for more
detail, have you mass mailed your members, have you lobbied in our
favour,
have you, no sir. Is this an outrage, is this a complete lack of
competence
when it comes to supporting those who you claim to represent? This
individual thinks so. So if you represent, or have a contact at your
local
blind organization please forward this message, we, or certainly I,
am very,
very disappointed in you all.

As for those private individuals who have not yet signed, even if
you do not
own Access or a Symbian phone, your name should be on this list, the
list
says something about who we are and what we stand for as blind
folks, it
says that we will not lay down and be ignored whilst our tools to
freedom
and mobility are stolen from us. It says we have a voice and we are
prepared
to use it when necessary.

This protest is about more than just Wayfinder

Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

2010-03-02 Thread Doug Langley
Has anyone approached loadstone about adding the googlemaps/earth api's? 
street view and directions are availible in many countrys. you add the 
loadstone user POIS to the google maps api and poi's and you actually 
have something going.  google maps is the best source for free maps. if 
people dont want to pay mobile geo prices then implement google maps in 
to something like loadstone or build a completely open source cross 
platform app in either python or java and talk to the appropriate screen 
reader API's.



On 3/2/2010 8:27 AM, Brandon Hicks wrote:
Not to mention most of those people aren't in countries Vodaphone 
serve. So there's another lack of insentive. Now if you had 700 blinks 
who were going to break contracts with them over it they might think 
again but as it is that's not going to happen. Vodaphone have nothing 
to gain and everything to lose by doing something about this, but the 
blinks feel entitled. Instead of putting the tallent to work for 
Loadstone they're just bitching. Typical.


Brandon

Doug Langley wrote:
Also, the WFA concept of free life time upgrades also put a nail in 
its coffin.  Wheres the insentive for Vodaphone to develop a program 
which wont bring them any sort of positive cash flow? This is a gps 
program and it needs updated data on a regular basis and wheres the 
insentive for vodaphone to do *anything* that wont bring them at 
least the ability to break even? First and formost its about money 
and 777 blind people that signed a petition who arent obligated (by 
the license agreement) to ever give them another penny arent going to 
be insentive enough to do anything about it.



On 3/2/2010 7:03 AM, Doug Langley wrote:
I'm glad to see someone else with a brain. No one ever takes these 
internet petitions seriously. I signed it but only because it can 
only help more than hurt. That being said, if people spent as much 
time working on a new solution instead of trying to save an old 
dieing one we would probably all be better off.  This is vodaphone. 
they hear from more people in a single hour than they will in this 
hole petition.  And all this petition is doing is asking for a 
reason why. so we can spend 3 months getting 778 signatures so they 
can say, because it didnt make business sense. Thank you for 
contacting vodaphone we hope we can service you in the future.


On 3/2/2010 6:57 AM, Amanda Rush wrote:

K this is a record. I was turned off by about the second line of this
guy's message. I totally get being angry about accessibility or the 
lack
thereof, but begging for signatures is like begging for charity. 
Neither
one works very well, and getting angry with the people you're 
trying to

get signatures/charity from isn't a good thing either. Also, IMO, (and
it's probably only my opinion, and we know what those are like, but 
this
is the crux of the entire accessibility fight), companies like this 
one
and every other one ignore these sorts of petitions because, even 
if every

single blind user were to call their bluff, we're not a big enough of
their market to matter as far as sales or whatever. And in the case 
of the
FS petition, we can all bitch and whine till we're out of breath, 
but the
fact is that 90% of their clientel is government contracts. So they 
can

pretty much do whatever, and the other AT companies will eventually go
along or go out of business, and so there's no real insentive for 
FS to do
anything positive. Note: I'm not a huge FS fan. At all. So I hope 
no one

takes this as rooting for them.

And wow, DJ Patty, haven't heard from you in *ages. I was wondering 
what

had happened to you. Good to see you're still around.

Amanda



-Original Message-
From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On 
Behalf Of Dj

Paddy
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 17:35
To: talk2
Subject: RE: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

Guys just displaying understandable anger over loss of access.

Barry

-Original Message-
From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On 
Behalf Of

Brandon Hicks
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:45 PM
To: talk2
Subject: Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

Agreed. This message speaks of childish tantrums. Even the Freedom
Scientific petition didn't get much over a thousand signatures, if 
even
that. This one's not going to get much more. I thought about it 
until I

got to about the third line of the message.

Brandon

Stephen Clower wrote:

So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can get
them is to insult everybody? I won't sign now simply because of the
author's attitude, despite his good intentions.

Steve

On 3/1/2010 2:12 PM, Onj wrote:

I haven't seen a message on this list for months.  Why not let the
content of this message speak for itself?

From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNavta...@talknav.com
on Monday, March 01, 2010 6:02 PM


A quick note to all of you who have, and those who as of yet have
not signed
the WFA user protest site

Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

2010-03-02 Thread Brandon Hicks
That would be the best, and if I had the knowledge I'd do it or talk to 
them about it. Hopefully someone will, because Loadstone could be good 
if it just streamlined the process of getting maps and POIs and got 
access to the better maps from Google.


Doug Langley wrote:
Has anyone approached loadstone about adding the googlemaps/earth 
api's? street view and directions are availible in many countrys. you 
add the loadstone user POIS to the google maps api and poi's and you 
actually have something going.  google maps is the best source for 
free maps. if people dont want to pay mobile geo prices then implement 
google maps in to something like loadstone or build a completely open 
source cross platform app in either python or java and talk to the 
appropriate screen reader API's.



On 3/2/2010 8:27 AM, Brandon Hicks wrote:
Not to mention most of those people aren't in countries Vodaphone 
serve. So there's another lack of insentive. Now if you had 700 
blinks who were going to break contracts with them over it they might 
think again but as it is that's not going to happen. Vodaphone have 
nothing to gain and everything to lose by doing something about this, 
but the blinks feel entitled. Instead of putting the tallent to work 
for Loadstone they're just bitching. Typical.


Brandon

Doug Langley wrote:
Also, the WFA concept of free life time upgrades also put a nail in 
its coffin.  Wheres the insentive for Vodaphone to develop a program 
which wont bring them any sort of positive cash flow? This is a gps 
program and it needs updated data on a regular basis and wheres the 
insentive for vodaphone to do *anything* that wont bring them at 
least the ability to break even? First and formost its about money 
and 777 blind people that signed a petition who arent obligated (by 
the license agreement) to ever give them another penny arent going 
to be insentive enough to do anything about it.



On 3/2/2010 7:03 AM, Doug Langley wrote:
I'm glad to see someone else with a brain. No one ever takes these 
internet petitions seriously. I signed it but only because it can 
only help more than hurt. That being said, if people spent as much 
time working on a new solution instead of trying to save an old 
dieing one we would probably all be better off.  This is vodaphone. 
they hear from more people in a single hour than they will in this 
hole petition.  And all this petition is doing is asking for a 
reason why. so we can spend 3 months getting 778 signatures so they 
can say, because it didnt make business sense. Thank you for 
contacting vodaphone we hope we can service you in the future.


On 3/2/2010 6:57 AM, Amanda Rush wrote:

K this is a record. I was turned off by about the second line of this
guy's message. I totally get being angry about accessibility or 
the lack
thereof, but begging for signatures is like begging for charity. 
Neither
one works very well, and getting angry with the people you're 
trying to
get signatures/charity from isn't a good thing either. Also, IMO, 
(and
it's probably only my opinion, and we know what those are like, 
but this
is the crux of the entire accessibility fight), companies like 
this one
and every other one ignore these sorts of petitions because, even 
if every

single blind user were to call their bluff, we're not a big enough of
their market to matter as far as sales or whatever. And in the 
case of the
FS petition, we can all bitch and whine till we're out of breath, 
but the
fact is that 90% of their clientel is government contracts. So 
they can
pretty much do whatever, and the other AT companies will 
eventually go
along or go out of business, and so there's no real insentive for 
FS to do
anything positive. Note: I'm not a huge FS fan. At all. So I hope 
no one

takes this as rooting for them.

And wow, DJ Patty, haven't heard from you in *ages. I was 
wondering what

had happened to you. Good to see you're still around.

Amanda



-Original Message-
From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On 
Behalf Of Dj

Paddy
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 17:35
To: talk2
Subject: RE: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

Guys just displaying understandable anger over loss of access.

Barry

-Original Message-
From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On 
Behalf Of

Brandon Hicks
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 8:45 PM
To: talk2
Subject: Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

Agreed. This message speaks of childish tantrums. Even the Freedom
Scientific petition didn't get much over a thousand signatures, if 
even
that. This one's not going to get much more. I thought about it 
until I

got to about the third line of the message.

Brandon

Stephen Clower wrote:

So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can get
them is to insult everybody? I won't sign now simply because of the
author's attitude, despite his good intentions.

Steve

On 3/1/2010 2:12 PM, Onj wrote:

I haven't seen

Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

2010-03-02 Thread Onj
I hear ya there Steve.  I didn't admittedly buy my screenreader, but nore 
did I crack it.  Being on the beta team has it's advantages and if I had 
the money and a lot left over, I'd gladly buy it because I like it.
I've successfully stired up a can of worms with this post though, just as I 
intended.  Neil got the wrong attitude, but he's trying.  Even if he 
achieves nothing at all, he's at least doing something.
Those blind tards that want something for nothing well, they have no right 
to complain.
Doug said on the petition, some people are demanding their money back. 
Like that's gonna happen.
And as I said to him, in 2001 I payed £130 for a 45 gig hard drive.  That 
drive is now very dead, and in a bin somewhere.  Should  I run to PC world 
demanding my money back because it's still not working?  Like hell I 
should!  Yet, blind people think they're entitled.  Entitled to shit! 
Should be greatful they got anything at all.


From: Stephen Clower st...@steve-audio.net
on Tuesday, March 02, 2010 5:11 PM


Here here. I've saved up and purchased all of my assistive tech over the
years. No group of people is entitled to things for free just because of
what may be wrong with them. Remember that virus that disabled all of
the pirated copies of JAWS a couple years ago for Christmas? I'd really
like to shake the hand of whoever put that crack together. I still
chuckle about it when the incident comes to mind.

Steve


On 3/2/2010 10:21 AM, Amanda Rush wrote:

Thanks for the compliment Doug. Now let me open up another can of worms.
I'm not necessarily going out of my way to piss people off, but if it
happens, oh well.

I think that, to a large extent, a lot of blind people think they're
entitled to accessibility from the private sector, and not only that, 
but
entitled to it for free. Yes, it would be nice if we lived in a 
perfectly
accessible world, where everything worked and we didn't have to pay 
extra
or put in any extra work. But we don't. And at least in the US, (I live 
in

the US so I can't comment on the UK or other countries), the ADA, which
has very few teeth in itself, doesn't apply to the private sector, 
unless

they're receiving government funding. And even then, there's the
reasonable accommodation clause. So we really are, in most cases, 
better

off hacking our own solutions together, and maybe sharing them with each
other so there's less re-inventing of the wheel. Because trust me, if I
were to, say, call FS and tell them that all this Red Hat crap I'm 
dealing

with is almost inaccessible, and I want better support for terminal
emulators, they're pretty much going to tell me to fuck myself because
there's not enough of a market share for that sort of thing, and same 
goes
for virtual machines and all these other nice new technologies they 
don't

officially support.



-Original Message-
From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of
Doug Langley
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 10:12
To: talk2
Subject: Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

Also, the WFA concept of free life time upgrades also put a nail in its
coffin.  Wheres the insentive for Vodaphone to develop a program which
wont bring them any sort of positive cash flow? This is a gps program
and it needs updated data on a regular basis and wheres the insentive
for vodaphone to do *anything* that wont bring them at least the ability
to break even? First and formost its about money and 777 blind people
that signed a petition who arent obligated (by the license agreement) to
ever give them another penny arent going to be insentive enough to do
anything about it.


On 3/2/2010 7:03 AM, Doug Langley wrote:


I'm glad to see someone else with a brain. No one ever takes these
internet petitions seriously. I signed it but only because it can only
help more than hurt. That being said, if people spent as much time
working on a new solution instead of trying to save an old dieing one
we would probably all be better off.  This is vodaphone. they hear
from more people in a single hour than they will in this hole
petition.  And all this petition is doing is asking for a reason why.
so we can spend 3 months getting 778 signatures so they can say,
because it didnt make business sense. Thank you for contacting
vodaphone we hope we can service you in the future.

On 3/2/2010 6:57 AM, Amanda Rush wrote:


K this is a record. I was turned off by about the second line of this
guy's message. I totally get being angry about accessibility or the


lack


thereof, but begging for signatures is like begging for charity.


Neither

one works very well, and getting angry with the people you're trying 
to

get signatures/charity from isn't a good thing either. Also, IMO, (and
it's probably only my opinion, and we know what those are like, but


this

is the crux of the entire accessibility fight), companies like this 
one

and every other one ignore these sorts of petitions because, even if
every
single blind user

Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

2010-03-02 Thread Doug Langley
this is something I've been pondering for the last 2 weeks after a 
conversation with onj
the Asterisk pbx uses a bounty system to get stuff done. So, basically 
you take donations for 3-9 months, then offer the money to developers to 
complete
the project. and the project that I invision is an open source product 
based on google maps that's multi plat form. pc, and winmo/symbian.  WX 
widgits

are availible for all our major platforms.

In theory this isnt hard to setup but I can smell the headaches from a 
thousand miles away.  People want donations back, people dont like the 
finished
product etc.  I'm not sure I want the project but It does leave me 
tempted to do it.


On 3/2/2010 8:40 AM, Brandon Hicks wrote:
block quote
That would be the best, and if I had the knowledge I'd do it or talk to 
them about it. Hopefully someone will, because Loadstone could be good 
if it just
streamlined the process of getting maps and POIs and got access to the 
better maps from Google.





Did you miss a message?  Well, don't.
http://www.mail-archive.com/talk2%40andrelouis.com/
has it for you.  Never miss a Talk2 message again.


Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

2010-03-02 Thread shaun everiss
yeah it did other things to.
At 06:11 a.m. 3/03/2010, you wrote:
Here here. I've saved up and purchased all of my assistive tech over the 
years. No group of people is entitled to things for free just because of what 
may be wrong with them. Remember that virus that disabled all of the pirated 
copies of JAWS a couple years ago for Christmas? I'd really like to shake the 
hand of whoever put that crack together. I still chuckle about it when the 
incident comes to mind.

Steve


On 3/2/2010 10:21 AM, Amanda Rush wrote:
Thanks for the compliment Doug. Now let me open up another can of worms.
I'm not necessarily going out of my way to piss people off, but if it
happens, oh well.

I think that, to a large extent, a lot of blind people think they're
entitled to accessibility from the private sector, and not only that, but
entitled to it for free. Yes, it would be nice if we lived in a perfectly
accessible world, where everything worked and we didn't have to pay extra
or put in any extra work. But we don't. And at least in the US, (I live in
the US so I can't comment on the UK or other countries), the ADA, which
has very few teeth in itself, doesn't apply to the private sector, unless
they're receiving government funding. And even then, there's the
reasonable accommodation clause. So we really are, in most cases, better
off hacking our own solutions together, and maybe sharing them with each
other so there's less re-inventing of the wheel. Because trust me, if I
were to, say, call FS and tell them that all this Red Hat crap I'm dealing
with is almost inaccessible, and I want better support for terminal
emulators, they're pretty much going to tell me to fuck myself because
there's not enough of a market share for that sort of thing, and same goes
for virtual machines and all these other nice new technologies they don't
officially support.



-Original Message-
From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf Of
Doug Langley
Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 10:12
To: talk2
Subject: Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

Also, the WFA concept of free life time upgrades also put a nail in its
coffin.  Wheres the insentive for Vodaphone to develop a program which
wont bring them any sort of positive cash flow? This is a gps program
and it needs updated data on a regular basis and wheres the insentive
for vodaphone to do *anything* that wont bring them at least the ability
to break even? First and formost its about money and 777 blind people
that signed a petition who arent obligated (by the license agreement) to
ever give them another penny arent going to be insentive enough to do
anything about it.


On 3/2/2010 7:03 AM, Doug Langley wrote:
   
I'm glad to see someone else with a brain. No one ever takes these
internet petitions seriously. I signed it but only because it can only
help more than hurt. That being said, if people spent as much time
working on a new solution instead of trying to save an old dieing one
we would probably all be better off.  This is vodaphone. they hear
from more people in a single hour than they will in this hole
petition.  And all this petition is doing is asking for a reason why.
so we can spend 3 months getting 778 signatures so they can say,
because it didnt make business sense. Thank you for contacting
vodaphone we hope we can service you in the future.

On 3/2/2010 6:57 AM, Amanda Rush wrote:
 
K this is a record. I was turned off by about the second line of this
guy's message. I totally get being angry about accessibility or the
   
lack
   
thereof, but begging for signatures is like begging for charity.
   
Neither
   
one works very well, and getting angry with the people you're trying to
get signatures/charity from isn't a good thing either. Also, IMO, (and
it's probably only my opinion, and we know what those are like, but
   
this
   
is the crux of the entire accessibility fight), companies like this one
and every other one ignore these sorts of petitions because, even if
every
single blind user were to call their bluff, we're not a big enough of
their market to matter as far as sales or whatever. And in the case
of the
FS petition, we can all bitch and whine till we're out of breath, but
the
fact is that 90% of their clientel is government contracts. So they can
pretty much do whatever, and the other AT companies will eventually go
along or go out of business, and so there's no real insentive for FS
to do
anything positive. Note: I'm not a huge FS fan. At all. So I hope no
   
one
   
takes this as rooting for them.

And wow, DJ Patty, haven't heard from you in *ages. I was wondering
   
what
   
had happened to you. Good to see you're still around.

Amanda



-Original Message-
From: mai...@andrelouis.com [mailto:mai...@andrelouis.com] On Behalf
Of Dj
Paddy
Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 17:35
To: talk2
Subject: RE: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

Guys just displaying understandable anger

Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

2010-03-02 Thread shaun everiss
hmmm do it anyway.
Ok I can't prommise any donations but I am part admin of a podcast site, I can 
submit material for inclusion, I can probably promote  the project heck could 
even get my own section basedon that project if I wished at least I think I can.
At 06:32 a.m. 3/03/2010, you wrote:
this is something I've been pondering for the last 2 weeks after a 
conversation with onj
the Asterisk pbx uses a bounty system to get stuff done. So, basically you 
take donations for 3-9 months, then offer the money to developers to complete
the project. and the project that I invision is an open source product based 
on google maps that's multi plat form. pc, and winmo/symbian.  WX widgits
are availible for all our major platforms.

In theory this isnt hard to setup but I can smell the headaches from a 
thousand miles away.  People want donations back, people dont like the finished
product etc.  I'm not sure I want the project but It does leave me tempted to 
do it.

On 3/2/2010 8:40 AM, Brandon Hicks wrote:
block quote
That would be the best, and if I had the knowledge I'd do it or talk to them 
about it. Hopefully someone will, because Loadstone could be good if it just
streamlined the process of getting maps and POIs and got access to the better 
maps from Google.




Did you miss a message?  Well, don't.
http://www.mail-archive.com/talk2%40andrelouis.com/
has it for you.  Never miss a Talk2 message again.




Did you miss a message?  Well, don't.
http://www.mail-archive.com/talk2%40andrelouis.com/
has it for you.  Never miss a Talk2 message again.


Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

2010-03-01 Thread Stephen Clower
So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can get 
them is to insult everybody? I won't sign now simply because of the 
author's attitude, despite his good intentions.


Steve

On 3/1/2010 2:12 PM, Onj wrote:
I haven't seen a message on this list for months.  Why not let the 
content of this message speak for itself?


From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNav ta...@talknav.com
on Monday, March 01, 2010 6:02 PM

A quick note to all of you who have, and those who as of yet have not 
signed

the WFA user protest site.

Before I start my message the link right here and now is
www.talknav.com/protest

Firstly, a note to all of you who have signed, thank you, but I have 
to at

this stage say that it is way too few who have made this effort. We are
nearing 700, yet for Vodafone to take this seriously we need thousands.

To date we've not even got close to even the number of users of the
application signing, let alone additional support.

Can I especially ask those of you who either work with or for the
organizations that supposedly represent us as blind folk, yes you 
lot, those
of you at the RNIB, CNIB, AFB, NFB, etc, etc, you lot really have 
made me

rather upset and irritated.

To date I've posted two messages via each of your web-sites informing 
you

all of our protest, has any one of you got back to me to ask for more
detail, have you mass mailed your members, have you lobbied in our 
favour,
have you, no sir. Is this an outrage, is this a complete lack of 
competence

when it comes to supporting those who you claim to represent? This
individual thinks so. So if you represent, or have a contact at your 
local
blind organization please forward this message, we, or certainly I, 
am very,

very disappointed in you all.

As for those private individuals who have not yet signed, even if you 
do not
own Access or a Symbian phone, your name should be on this list, the 
list

says something about who we are and what we stand for as blind folks, it
says that we will not lay down and be ignored whilst our tools to 
freedom
and mobility are stolen from us. It says we have a voice and we are 
prepared

to use it when necessary.

This protest is about more than just Wayfinder Access, it is a 
symbol, now

please, I urge you all, we need this link spreading, we need it sharing,
Face Book pages, Twitter, those of you who produce pod casts, mailing 
lists

etc, etc, if you believe in your freedom to mobility and your rights to
accessible products then make your mark.

More than this, those you know need to say that they too are in 
support of
our cause, so get your address book and forward this link, 
personalize it

with a few lines of message, get the word out there.

The protest site has a league table on it at the bottom of the public
signatures page, it's dynamic and countries move about on the list. 
To date

we've only had a tiny portion of blind people around the world sign up.
Spread the word folks.

www.talknav.com/protest

This issue rests squarely in your hands, make a difference today...

Regards.

Neil Barnfather.

___
Access mailing list
acc...@accessusers.com
http://wfusers.com/mailman/listinfo/access

Hosting of this list provided courtesy of:
eHosting Limited: http://www.ehosting.com/
and
Talknav Inc. http://www.talknav.net/





Did you miss a message?  Well, don't.
http://www.mail-archive.com/talk2%40andrelouis.com/
has it for you.  Never miss a Talk2 message again.




Did you miss a message?  Well, don't.
http://www.mail-archive.com/talk2%40andrelouis.com/
has it for you.  Never miss a Talk2 message again.


Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

2010-03-01 Thread Daniel R
Agreed Steve. Maybe if he was nicer, and asked kindly, i would have
considered it. Luckily you posted, because right to the delete button
I was going.


On 3/1/10, Stephen Clower st...@steve-audio.net wrote:
 So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can get
 them is to insult everybody? I won't sign now simply because of the
 author's attitude, despite his good intentions.

 Steve

 On 3/1/2010 2:12 PM, Onj wrote:
 I haven't seen a message on this list for months.  Why not let the
 content of this message speak for itself?

 From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNav ta...@talknav.com
 on Monday, March 01, 2010 6:02 PM

 A quick note to all of you who have, and those who as of yet have not
 signed
 the WFA user protest site.

 Before I start my message the link right here and now is
 www.talknav.com/protest

 Firstly, a note to all of you who have signed, thank you, but I have
 to at
 this stage say that it is way too few who have made this effort. We are
 nearing 700, yet for Vodafone to take this seriously we need thousands.

 To date we've not even got close to even the number of users of the
 application signing, let alone additional support.

 Can I especially ask those of you who either work with or for the
 organizations that supposedly represent us as blind folk, yes you
 lot, those
 of you at the RNIB, CNIB, AFB, NFB, etc, etc, you lot really have
 made me
 rather upset and irritated.

 To date I've posted two messages via each of your web-sites informing
 you
 all of our protest, has any one of you got back to me to ask for more
 detail, have you mass mailed your members, have you lobbied in our
 favour,
 have you, no sir. Is this an outrage, is this a complete lack of
 competence
 when it comes to supporting those who you claim to represent? This
 individual thinks so. So if you represent, or have a contact at your
 local
 blind organization please forward this message, we, or certainly I,
 am very,
 very disappointed in you all.

 As for those private individuals who have not yet signed, even if you
 do not
 own Access or a Symbian phone, your name should be on this list, the
 list
 says something about who we are and what we stand for as blind folks, it
 says that we will not lay down and be ignored whilst our tools to
 freedom
 and mobility are stolen from us. It says we have a voice and we are
 prepared
 to use it when necessary.

 This protest is about more than just Wayfinder Access, it is a
 symbol, now
 please, I urge you all, we need this link spreading, we need it sharing,
 Face Book pages, Twitter, those of you who produce pod casts, mailing
 lists
 etc, etc, if you believe in your freedom to mobility and your rights to
 accessible products then make your mark.

 More than this, those you know need to say that they too are in
 support of
 our cause, so get your address book and forward this link,
 personalize it
 with a few lines of message, get the word out there.

 The protest site has a league table on it at the bottom of the public
 signatures page, it's dynamic and countries move about on the list.
 To date
 we've only had a tiny portion of blind people around the world sign up.
 Spread the word folks.

 www.talknav.com/protest

 This issue rests squarely in your hands, make a difference today...

 Regards.

 Neil Barnfather.

 ___
 Access mailing list
 acc...@accessusers.com
 http://wfusers.com/mailman/listinfo/access

 Hosting of this list provided courtesy of:
 eHosting Limited: http://www.ehosting.com/
 and
 Talknav Inc. http://www.talknav.net/




 Did you miss a message?  Well, don't.
 http://www.mail-archive.com/talk2%40andrelouis.com/
 has it for you.  Never miss a Talk2 message again.



 Did you miss a message?  Well, don't.
 http://www.mail-archive.com/talk2%40andrelouis.com/
 has it for you.  Never miss a Talk2 message again.



-- 
Daniel C Romero
Paterson New Jersey

Cell Phone: 973-955-6955
Studio/Office: 973-707-6844
MSN messenger/E-mail:
djdan...@gmail.com
Aim: RadioDJ246
Skype: radiodj246
Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/djdan567


Did you miss a message?  Well, don't.
http://www.mail-archive.com/talk2%40andrelouis.com/
has it for you.  Never miss a Talk2 message again.


Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

2010-03-01 Thread Onj
you're not head of a large blindy organisation, though.  And though I agree 
with your standpoint, to a point, if I ask you, will you sign instead?  I'm 
asking as someone who, unless Loadstone really decides to do something 
useful, will have no GPS undder his platform.  You have Mobile Geo and you 
are lucky for that, however it shall be a cold day in hell I switch to 
Windows smart.  Especially with all the incredibly um, interesting? changes 
they are trying to implement at this time.
So, ignoring that message, which to be fair the guy did have a point, he 
wasn't saying it to individuals but to large organisations, please sign it. 
I can't ask more than that really.


From: Stephen Clower st...@steve-audio.net
on Monday, March 01, 2010 7:20 PM


So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can get
them is to insult everybody? I won't sign now simply because of the
author's attitude, despite his good intentions.

Steve

On 3/1/2010 2:12 PM, Onj wrote:

I haven't seen a message on this list for months.  Why not let the
content of this message speak for itself?

From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNav ta...@talknav.com
on Monday, March 01, 2010 6:02 PM


A quick note to all of you who have, and those who as of yet have not
signed
the WFA user protest site.

Before I start my message the link right here and now is
www.talknav.com/protest

Firstly, a note to all of you who have signed, thank you, but I have
to at
this stage say that it is way too few who have made this effort. We are
nearing 700, yet for Vodafone to take this seriously we need thousands.

To date we've not even got close to even the number of users of the
application signing, let alone additional support.

Can I especially ask those of you who either work with or for the
organizations that supposedly represent us as blind folk, yes you
lot, those
of you at the RNIB, CNIB, AFB, NFB, etc, etc, you lot really have
made me
rather upset and irritated.

To date I've posted two messages via each of your web-sites informing
you
all of our protest, has any one of you got back to me to ask for more
detail, have you mass mailed your members, have you lobbied in our
favour,
have you, no sir. Is this an outrage, is this a complete lack of
competence
when it comes to supporting those who you claim to represent? This
individual thinks so. So if you represent, or have a contact at your
local
blind organization please forward this message, we, or certainly I,
am very,
very disappointed in you all.

As for those private individuals who have not yet signed, even if you
do not
own Access or a Symbian phone, your name should be on this list, the
list
says something about who we are and what we stand for as blind folks, 
it

says that we will not lay down and be ignored whilst our tools to
freedom
and mobility are stolen from us. It says we have a voice and we are
prepared
to use it when necessary.

This protest is about more than just Wayfinder Access, it is a
symbol, now
please, I urge you all, we need this link spreading, we need it 
sharing,

Face Book pages, Twitter, those of you who produce pod casts, mailing
lists
etc, etc, if you believe in your freedom to mobility and your rights to
accessible products then make your mark.

More than this, those you know need to say that they too are in
support of
our cause, so get your address book and forward this link,
personalize it
with a few lines of message, get the word out there.

The protest site has a league table on it at the bottom of the public
signatures page, it's dynamic and countries move about on the list.
To date
we've only had a tiny portion of blind people around the world sign up.
Spread the word folks.

www.talknav.com/protest

This issue rests squarely in your hands, make a difference today...

Regards.

Neil Barnfather.

___
Access mailing list
acc...@accessusers.com
http://wfusers.com/mailman/listinfo/access

Hosting of this list provided courtesy of:
eHosting Limited: http://www.ehosting.com/
and
Talknav Inc. http://www.talknav.net/





Did you miss a message?  Well, don't.
http://www.mail-archive.com/talk2%40andrelouis.com/
has it for you.  Never miss a Talk2 message again.




Did you miss a message?  Well, don't.
http://www.mail-archive.com/talk2%40andrelouis.com/
has it for you.  Never miss a Talk2 message again.





Did you miss a message?  Well, don't.
http://www.mail-archive.com/talk2%40andrelouis.com/
has it for you.  Never miss a Talk2 message again.


Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

2010-03-01 Thread shaun everiss
hmph.
well I myself think simbian rocks.
win mobile, well from what I hear it crashes like no one's business.
On that note wander why  no one has designed something around a linux distro, 
ubuntu, maybe nvda and something else.
could probably work to.
and you could run linux apps on your mobile.
At 10:35 a.m. 2/03/2010, you wrote:
I suspect everyone on that list has already signed. He needs to get the word 
out through additional channels without trying to guilt trip the reader into 
signing it. Frankly though, I don't think there will be much luck. A telecomm 
company that has hundreds of thousands of customers doesn't care about a 
thousand blind people, no matter how angry they get. Just look at what 
Microsoft is doing to Windows Mobile; yanking the rug out from under everyone 
with no regards to keeping products like MobileSpeak functional. Why petition? 
Microsoft obviously doesn't give a flip, and neither do these guys.

As much as I like MobileSpeak and especially Mobile Geo, I'll be banking on 
the Android platform in a few years when both WM and Simbian are dead.

Steve


On 3/1/2010 3:39 PM, Onj wrote:
you're not head of a large blindy organisation, though.  And though I agree 
with your standpoint, to a point, if I ask you, will you sign instead?  I'm 
asking as someone who, unless Loadstone really decides to do something 
useful, will have no GPS undder his platform.  You have Mobile Geo and you 
are lucky for that, however it shall be a cold day in hell I switch to 
Windows smart.  Especially with all the incredibly um, interesting? changes 
they are trying to implement at this time.
So, ignoring that message, which to be fair the guy did have a point, he 
wasn't saying it to individuals but to large organisations, please sign it. I 
can't ask more than that really.

From: Stephen Clower st...@steve-audio.net
on Monday, March 01, 2010 7:20 PM

So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can get
them is to insult everybody? I won't sign now simply because of the
author's attitude, despite his good intentions.

Steve

On 3/1/2010 2:12 PM, Onj wrote:
I haven't seen a message on this list for months.  Why not let the
content of this message speak for itself?

From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNav ta...@talknav.com
on Monday, March 01, 2010 6:02 PM

A quick note to all of you who have, and those who as of yet have not
signed
the WFA user protest site.

Before I start my message the link right here and now is
www.talknav.com/protest

Firstly, a note to all of you who have signed, thank you, but I have
to at
this stage say that it is way too few who have made this effort. We are
nearing 700, yet for Vodafone to take this seriously we need thousands.

To date we've not even got close to even the number of users of the
application signing, let alone additional support.

Can I especially ask those of you who either work with or for the
organizations that supposedly represent us as blind folk, yes you
lot, those
of you at the RNIB, CNIB, AFB, NFB, etc, etc, you lot really have
made me
rather upset and irritated.

To date I've posted two messages via each of your web-sites informing
you
all of our protest, has any one of you got back to me to ask for more
detail, have you mass mailed your members, have you lobbied in our
favour,
have you, no sir. Is this an outrage, is this a complete lack of
competence
when it comes to supporting those who you claim to represent? This
individual thinks so. So if you represent, or have a contact at your
local
blind organization please forward this message, we, or certainly I,
am very,
very disappointed in you all.

As for those private individuals who have not yet signed, even if you
do not
own Access or a Symbian phone, your name should be on this list, the
list
says something about who we are and what we stand for as blind folks, it
says that we will not lay down and be ignored whilst our tools to
freedom
and mobility are stolen from us. It says we have a voice and we are
prepared
to use it when necessary.

This protest is about more than just Wayfinder Access, it is a
symbol, now
please, I urge you all, we need this link spreading, we need it sharing,
Face Book pages, Twitter, those of you who produce pod casts, mailing
lists
etc, etc, if you believe in your freedom to mobility and your rights to
accessible products then make your mark.

More than this, those you know need to say that they too are in
support of
our cause, so get your address book and forward this link,
personalize it
with a few lines of message, get the word out there.

The protest site has a league table on it at the bottom of the public
signatures page, it's dynamic and countries move about on the list.
To date
we've only had a tiny portion of blind people around the world sign up.
Spread the word folks.

www.talknav.com/protest

This issue rests squarely in your hands, make a difference today...

Regards.

Neil Barnfather.

___
Access mailing 

Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

2010-03-01 Thread Stephen Clower
Given what's out there right now, it can't be done. Platforms are very, 
very different, and a lot of what products like Orca or NVDA need to 
operate aren't present on handsets. Android is based on Linux, by the 
way. A screen reader is in the works, and while it's not very useful 
now, it may be great given another year or two of development. Nokia is 
abandoning Simbian as we all know it in loo of a Linux/Simbian hybrid 
which is just as broken as Windows Phone 7 will be


Steve


On 3/1/2010 4:51 PM, shaun everiss wrote:

hmph.
well I myself think simbian rocks.
win mobile, well from what I hear it crashes like no one's business.
On that note wander why  no one has designed something around a linux distro, 
ubuntu, maybe nvda and something else.
could probably work to.
and you could run linux apps on your mobile.
At 10:35 a.m. 2/03/2010, you wrote:
   

I suspect everyone on that list has already signed. He needs to get the word 
out through additional channels without trying to guilt trip the reader into 
signing it. Frankly though, I don't think there will be much luck. A telecomm 
company that has hundreds of thousands of customers doesn't care about a 
thousand blind people, no matter how angry they get. Just look at what 
Microsoft is doing to Windows Mobile; yanking the rug out from under everyone 
with no regards to keeping products like MobileSpeak functional. Why petition? 
Microsoft obviously doesn't give a flip, and neither do these guys.

As much as I like MobileSpeak and especially Mobile Geo, I'll be banking on the 
Android platform in a few years when both WM and Simbian are dead.

Steve


On 3/1/2010 3:39 PM, Onj wrote:
 

you're not head of a large blindy organisation, though.  And though I agree 
with your standpoint, to a point, if I ask you, will you sign instead?  I'm 
asking as someone who, unless Loadstone really decides to do something useful, 
will have no GPS undder his platform.  You have Mobile Geo and you are lucky 
for that, however it shall be a cold day in hell I switch to Windows smart.  
Especially with all the incredibly um, interesting? changes they are trying to 
implement at this time.
So, ignoring that message, which to be fair the guy did have a point, he wasn't 
saying it to individuals but to large organisations, please sign it. I can't 
ask more than that really.

From: Stephen Clowerst...@steve-audio.net
on Monday, March 01, 2010 7:20 PM

   

So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can get
them is to insult everybody? I won't sign now simply because of the
author's attitude, despite his good intentions.

Steve

On 3/1/2010 2:12 PM, Onj wrote:
 

I haven't seen a message on this list for months.  Why not let the
content of this message speak for itself?

From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNavta...@talknav.com
on Monday, March 01, 2010 6:02 PM

   

A quick note to all of you who have, and those who as of yet have not
signed
the WFA user protest site.

Before I start my message the link right here and now is
www.talknav.com/protest

Firstly, a note to all of you who have signed, thank you, but I have
to at
this stage say that it is way too few who have made this effort. We are
nearing 700, yet for Vodafone to take this seriously we need thousands.

To date we've not even got close to even the number of users of the
application signing, let alone additional support.

Can I especially ask those of you who either work with or for the
organizations that supposedly represent us as blind folk, yes you
lot, those
of you at the RNIB, CNIB, AFB, NFB, etc, etc, you lot really have
made me
rather upset and irritated.

To date I've posted two messages via each of your web-sites informing
you
all of our protest, has any one of you got back to me to ask for more
detail, have you mass mailed your members, have you lobbied in our
favour,
have you, no sir. Is this an outrage, is this a complete lack of
competence
when it comes to supporting those who you claim to represent? This
individual thinks so. So if you represent, or have a contact at your
local
blind organization please forward this message, we, or certainly I,
am very,
very disappointed in you all.

As for those private individuals who have not yet signed, even if you
do not
own Access or a Symbian phone, your name should be on this list, the
list
says something about who we are and what we stand for as blind folks, it
says that we will not lay down and be ignored whilst our tools to
freedom
and mobility are stolen from us. It says we have a voice and we are
prepared
to use it when necessary.

This protest is about more than just Wayfinder Access, it is a
symbol, now
please, I urge you all, we need this link spreading, we need it sharing,
Face Book pages, Twitter, those of you who produce pod casts, mailing
lists
etc, etc, if you believe in your freedom to mobility and your rights to
accessible products then make your mark.

More than this, those you know need to say that they 

Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

2010-03-01 Thread shaun everiss
hmph.
thought symbian was opensource.
oh well what  exactly will we all use after all that goes away.
not that I care much there will probably be for the forseeable future old 
phones mine still works.
I suppose we will have to use all the broken windows and simlinux systems then.
android looks promising though the google nexus was a joke really was.
Its a pitty we can't just have a version of win7 or xp on a mobile.
Its a shame that the only phone that is mac is an iphone.
Would like to have hmm a mac powerphone imagine what cool things I would be 
able to do with that.
At 10:54 a.m. 2/03/2010, you wrote:
Given what's out there right now, it can't be done. Platforms are very, very 
different, and a lot of what products like Orca or NVDA need to operate aren't 
present on handsets. Android is based on Linux, by the way. A screen reader is 
in the works, and while it's not very useful now, it may be great given 
another year or two of development. Nokia is abandoning Simbian as we all know 
it in loo of a Linux/Simbian hybrid which is just as broken as Windows Phone 7 
will be

Steve


On 3/1/2010 4:51 PM, shaun everiss wrote:
hmph.
well I myself think simbian rocks.
win mobile, well from what I hear it crashes like no one's business.
On that note wander why  no one has designed something around a linux distro, 
ubuntu, maybe nvda and something else.
could probably work to.
and you could run linux apps on your mobile.
At 10:35 a.m. 2/03/2010, you wrote:
   
I suspect everyone on that list has already signed. He needs to get the word 
out through additional channels without trying to guilt trip the reader into 
signing it. Frankly though, I don't think there will be much luck. A 
telecomm company that has hundreds of thousands of customers doesn't care 
about a thousand blind people, no matter how angry they get. Just look at 
what Microsoft is doing to Windows Mobile; yanking the rug out from under 
everyone with no regards to keeping products like MobileSpeak functional. 
Why petition? Microsoft obviously doesn't give a flip, and neither do these 
guys.

As much as I like MobileSpeak and especially Mobile Geo, I'll be banking on 
the Android platform in a few years when both WM and Simbian are dead.

Steve


On 3/1/2010 3:39 PM, Onj wrote:
 
you're not head of a large blindy organisation, though.  And though I agree 
with your standpoint, to a point, if I ask you, will you sign instead?  I'm 
asking as someone who, unless Loadstone really decides to do something 
useful, will have no GPS undder his platform.  You have Mobile Geo and you 
are lucky for that, however it shall be a cold day in hell I switch to 
Windows smart.  Especially with all the incredibly um, interesting? changes 
they are trying to implement at this time.
So, ignoring that message, which to be fair the guy did have a point, he 
wasn't saying it to individuals but to large organisations, please sign it. 
I can't ask more than that really.

From: Stephen Clowerst...@steve-audio.net
on Monday, March 01, 2010 7:20 PM

   
So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can get
them is to insult everybody? I won't sign now simply because of the
author's attitude, despite his good intentions.

Steve

On 3/1/2010 2:12 PM, Onj wrote:
 
I haven't seen a message on this list for months.  Why not let the
content of this message speak for itself?

From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNavta...@talknav.com
on Monday, March 01, 2010 6:02 PM

   
A quick note to all of you who have, and those who as of yet have not
signed
the WFA user protest site.

Before I start my message the link right here and now is
www.talknav.com/protest

Firstly, a note to all of you who have signed, thank you, but I have
to at
this stage say that it is way too few who have made this effort. We are
nearing 700, yet for Vodafone to take this seriously we need thousands.

To date we've not even got close to even the number of users of the
application signing, let alone additional support.

Can I especially ask those of you who either work with or for the
organizations that supposedly represent us as blind folk, yes you
lot, those
of you at the RNIB, CNIB, AFB, NFB, etc, etc, you lot really have
made me
rather upset and irritated.

To date I've posted two messages via each of your web-sites informing
you
all of our protest, has any one of you got back to me to ask for more
detail, have you mass mailed your members, have you lobbied in our
favour,
have you, no sir. Is this an outrage, is this a complete lack of
competence
when it comes to supporting those who you claim to represent? This
individual thinks so. So if you represent, or have a contact at your
local
blind organization please forward this message, we, or certainly I,
am very,
very disappointed in you all.

As for those private individuals who have not yet signed, even if you
do not
own Access or a Symbian phone, your name should be on this list, the
list
says something about who we are and 

Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

2010-03-01 Thread Stephen Clower
It's open source, but to release it that way, Nokia had to remove a lot 
of closed-source components that are critical to the platform itself. If 
you compiled and installed what's on the internet right now, you'd end 
up with a brick.


Steve

On 3/1/2010 5:11 PM, shaun everiss wrote:

hmph.
thought symbian was opensource.
oh well what  exactly will we all use after all that goes away.
not that I care much there will probably be for the forseeable future old 
phones mine still works.
I suppose we will have to use all the broken windows and simlinux systems then.
android looks promising though the google nexus was a joke really was.
Its a pitty we can't just have a version of win7 or xp on a mobile.
Its a shame that the only phone that is mac is an iphone.
Would like to have hmm a mac powerphone imagine what cool things I would be 
able to do with that.
At 10:54 a.m. 2/03/2010, you wrote:
   

Given what's out there right now, it can't be done. Platforms are very, very 
different, and a lot of what products like Orca or NVDA need to operate aren't 
present on handsets. Android is based on Linux, by the way. A screen reader is 
in the works, and while it's not very useful now, it may be great given another 
year or two of development. Nokia is abandoning Simbian as we all know it in 
loo of a Linux/Simbian hybrid which is just as broken as Windows Phone 7 will be

Steve


On 3/1/2010 4:51 PM, shaun everiss wrote:
 

hmph.
well I myself think simbian rocks.
win mobile, well from what I hear it crashes like no one's business.
On that note wander why  no one has designed something around a linux distro, 
ubuntu, maybe nvda and something else.
could probably work to.
and you could run linux apps on your mobile.
At 10:35 a.m. 2/03/2010, you wrote:

   

I suspect everyone on that list has already signed. He needs to get the word 
out through additional channels without trying to guilt trip the reader into 
signing it. Frankly though, I don't think there will be much luck. A telecomm 
company that has hundreds of thousands of customers doesn't care about a 
thousand blind people, no matter how angry they get. Just look at what 
Microsoft is doing to Windows Mobile; yanking the rug out from under everyone 
with no regards to keeping products like MobileSpeak functional. Why petition? 
Microsoft obviously doesn't give a flip, and neither do these guys.

As much as I like MobileSpeak and especially Mobile Geo, I'll be banking on the 
Android platform in a few years when both WM and Simbian are dead.

Steve


On 3/1/2010 3:39 PM, Onj wrote:

 

you're not head of a large blindy organisation, though.  And though I agree 
with your standpoint, to a point, if I ask you, will you sign instead?  I'm 
asking as someone who, unless Loadstone really decides to do something useful, 
will have no GPS undder his platform.  You have Mobile Geo and you are lucky 
for that, however it shall be a cold day in hell I switch to Windows smart.  
Especially with all the incredibly um, interesting? changes they are trying to 
implement at this time.
So, ignoring that message, which to be fair the guy did have a point, he wasn't 
saying it to individuals but to large organisations, please sign it. I can't 
ask more than that really.

From: Stephen Clowerst...@steve-audio.net
on Monday, March 01, 2010 7:20 PM


   

So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can get
them is to insult everybody? I won't sign now simply because of the
author's attitude, despite his good intentions.

Steve

On 3/1/2010 2:12 PM, Onj wrote:

 

I haven't seen a message on this list for months.  Why not let the
content of this message speak for itself?

From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNavta...@talknav.com
on Monday, March 01, 2010 6:02 PM


   

A quick note to all of you who have, and those who as of yet have not
signed
the WFA user protest site.

Before I start my message the link right here and now is
www.talknav.com/protest

Firstly, a note to all of you who have signed, thank you, but I have
to at
this stage say that it is way too few who have made this effort. We are
nearing 700, yet for Vodafone to take this seriously we need thousands.

To date we've not even got close to even the number of users of the
application signing, let alone additional support.

Can I especially ask those of you who either work with or for the
organizations that supposedly represent us as blind folk, yes you
lot, those
of you at the RNIB, CNIB, AFB, NFB, etc, etc, you lot really have
made me
rather upset and irritated.

To date I've posted two messages via each of your web-sites informing
you
all of our protest, has any one of you got back to me to ask for more
detail, have you mass mailed your members, have you lobbied in our
favour,
have you, no sir. Is this an outrage, is this a complete lack of
competence
when it comes to supporting those who you claim to represent? This
individual thinks so. So if you represent, 

Re: The Talk2 List Fw: [access] WFA User Protest

2010-03-01 Thread Doug Langley
and, symbian is changing the UI to a better GUI which is visually 
appealing and doesnt look like a dos app from 1996. Tthe problem with 
this new GUI is its very lacking in the accessibility department. and 
will probably take screen reader venders several years to redesign 
things to work with the new UI.


The s60 UI sucks and symbian knows it cant compete if they dont make it 
more visually apealing and more user friendly. They realize for example 
that it shouldnt take 12 taps/keystrokes just to create the email 
account on the phone.



On 3/1/2010 2:13 PM, Stephen Clower wrote:
It's open source, but to release it that way, Nokia had to remove a 
lot of closed-source components that are critical to the platform 
itself. If you compiled and installed what's on the internet right 
now, you'd end up with a brick.


Steve

On 3/1/2010 5:11 PM, shaun everiss wrote:

hmph.
thought symbian was opensource.
oh well what  exactly will we all use after all that goes away.
not that I care much there will probably be for the forseeable future 
old phones mine still works.
I suppose we will have to use all the broken windows and simlinux 
systems then.

android looks promising though the google nexus was a joke really was.
Its a pitty we can't just have a version of win7 or xp on a mobile.
Its a shame that the only phone that is mac is an iphone.
Would like to have hmm a mac powerphone imagine what cool things I 
would be able to do with that.

At 10:54 a.m. 2/03/2010, you wrote:
Given what's out there right now, it can't be done. Platforms are 
very, very different, and a lot of what products like Orca or NVDA 
need to operate aren't present on handsets. Android is based on 
Linux, by the way. A screen reader is in the works, and while it's 
not very useful now, it may be great given another year or two of 
development. Nokia is abandoning Simbian as we all know it in loo of 
a Linux/Simbian hybrid which is just as broken as Windows Phone 7 
will be


Steve


On 3/1/2010 4:51 PM, shaun everiss wrote:

hmph.
well I myself think simbian rocks.
win mobile, well from what I hear it crashes like no one's business.
On that note wander why  no one has designed something around a 
linux distro, ubuntu, maybe nvda and something else.

could probably work to.
and you could run linux apps on your mobile.
At 10:35 a.m. 2/03/2010, you wrote:

I suspect everyone on that list has already signed. He needs to 
get the word out through additional channels without trying to 
guilt trip the reader into signing it. Frankly though, I don't 
think there will be much luck. A telecomm company that has 
hundreds of thousands of customers doesn't care about a thousand 
blind people, no matter how angry they get. Just look at what 
Microsoft is doing to Windows Mobile; yanking the rug out from 
under everyone with no regards to keeping products like 
MobileSpeak functional. Why petition? Microsoft obviously doesn't 
give a flip, and neither do these guys.


As much as I like MobileSpeak and especially Mobile Geo, I'll be 
banking on the Android platform in a few years when both WM and 
Simbian are dead.


Steve


On 3/1/2010 3:39 PM, Onj wrote:

you're not head of a large blindy organisation, though.  And 
though I agree with your standpoint, to a point, if I ask you, 
will you sign instead?  I'm asking as someone who, unless 
Loadstone really decides to do something useful, will have no GPS 
undder his platform.  You have Mobile Geo and you are lucky for 
that, however it shall be a cold day in hell I switch to Windows 
smart.  Especially with all the incredibly um, interesting? 
changes they are trying to implement at this time.
So, ignoring that message, which to be fair the guy did have a 
point, he wasn't saying it to individuals but to large 
organisations, please sign it. I can't ask more than that really.


From: Stephen Clowerst...@steve-audio.net
on Monday, March 01, 2010 7:20 PM


So... he wants more signatures, but the only way he feels he can 
get

them is to insult everybody? I won't sign now simply because of the
author's attitude, despite his good intentions.

Steve

On 3/1/2010 2:12 PM, Onj wrote:


I haven't seen a message on this list for months.  Why not let the
content of this message speak for itself?

From: Neil Barnfather - TalkNavta...@talknav.com
on Monday, March 01, 2010 6:02 PM


A quick note to all of you who have, and those who as of yet 
have not

signed
the WFA user protest site.

Before I start my message the link right here and now is
www.talknav.com/protest

Firstly, a note to all of you who have signed, thank you, but 
I have

to at
this stage say that it is way too few who have made this 
effort. We are
nearing 700, yet for Vodafone to take this seriously we need 
thousands.


To date we've not even got close to even the number of users 
of the

application signing, let alone additional support.

Can I especially ask those of you who either work with or for the
organizations that supposedly represent us