subject:"\[tw5\] Re\: Query\: What is a fragment\?"

bimlas wrote:
>
>
> https://sociologica.unibo.it/article/view/8350/8270
>

That article is good. Very good for social scientists.

One thing in it that is well explained is how Luhmann, years before other 
sociologists, abandoned hierarchy based categories in favour of "surprising 
linked networks" (my term).

Luhmann's feeling for "linking" prefigures what came on the net. It was 
radical at the time. And, most important, it worked. In some ways maybe 
still ahead of what is actually happening.

In relation to TW I doubt Luhmann would like TOC's based on the HTML "li" 
construct, which is the narrowing tree structure he totally avoided :-).

TT

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

Bimlas & PMario

Both articles are very good. They overlap a bit. But they also differ in 
perspective quite a lot.

IMO *they complement each other really well*.

IF the German text were available in English along with access to the 
Sociologica article, between the two it would provide a rounded case study 
of, I think, of great interest.

TBH I found exploring Luhmann very enlightening.

Best wishes, TT

bimlas wrote:
>
> As far as I can tell from a glance, this translation is similar to it. Or 
> is it not quite the same?
>
> https://sociologica.unibo.it/article/view/8350/8270
>

PMario wrote (modified by me) ...

... think, we should try to post a translated version of the article. ...

https://niklas-luhmann-archiv.de/nachlass/zettelkasten

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-25 Thread bimlas

PMario,

As far as I can tell from a glance, this translation is similar to it. Or 
is it not quite the same?

https://sociologica.unibo.it/article/view/8350/8270

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-25 Thread PMario

On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 8:41:14 PM UTC+2, PMario wrote:
..

> I think, we should try to post a translated version of the article. ... 
> BUT I don't know, if we would have a licensing problem. Will check it.
>

OK it seems to be CC BY-NC-SA 4.0. ... So no real problem. I'll have a 
closer look. in a different thread. 

-mario

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-25 Thread PMario

On Sunday, May 24, 2020 at 11:39:29 PM UTC+2, bimlas wrote:

I think the real problem that makes me unable to marry TiddlyWiki and 
> Zettelkasten is that I still don’t quite understand how the latter works. 
> It takes time for me to understand the theoretical knowledge I read about 
> it through practice.
>

I think you are right. The system seems it has been developed over a big 
part of a lifetime of the developer. It was "learning / developing by doing"

The article mentions a card 9/8g: "(Zettel 9/8g): „man liest anders, wenn 
man auf die Möglichkeit der Verzettelung achtet“, which means "You read 
(books) differently if you have the "Verzettelung" in mind".

Where "Verzettelung" in this context means "indexing" as used in a database 
context. 

I think, we should try to post a translated version of the article. ... BUT 
I don't know, if we would have a licensing problem. Will check it.

-m

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

bimlas wrote:
>
> PMario,
>  
>
>>  Hi, .. I think the Zettelkasten system doesn't need or use tags. ... 
>> Tagging is a completely different concept, that wasn't used by Luhmann. ... 
>>
>
> Because of the implementation of Schlagwortregisterzettel (which I 
> previously known as index zettel), I was thinking of using tags. In fact, 
> of course, links can replace tags in this case.
>

Couple of footnotes.

1 - It is true, especially for his second, vast, Zettelkasten, Luhmann had 
a substantial cross-cutting "key index" he added to on slip creation, and 
sometimes later added to. In many ways similar to modern "tags" 
(non-hierarchical indices) before they existed. But they were simply access 
indexes rather than "labels" (I.e. they existed in the hand written "index" 
but were not written on the actual record slips). Its sort of tagging, but 
"looking" only from outside the actual records.

2 - It is worth noting that some *software implementations* of Zettlekasten 
DO add and use tags for exactly the reasons you, bimlas, advance.

Just notes
TT

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

Ciao Bimlas

A few comments you do NOT need to reply to. 

I'm mainly commenting on mental processes prior to software tools. I think 
it's interesting, but not particularly helpful to you, now.

bimlas wrote (slightly edited):
>
>  me ..
>
> 467-1a INSOMNIA (sleep disorder)
>> 732-2c INSOMNIA , 1976 (film)
>> 1034-1a INSOMNIA, 1982 (film)
>>
>>
>> The point is this example is the shown "title" would be in the caption 
>> field; the real Title is both a UID and human informative.
>>
>  

> ... I think it’s best if the notes don’t have a name, or at least treat it 
> separately from the UID, because if I change its content, its name might 
> give incorrect information about it.  if I write a “986 Naming Notes in 
> Zettelkasten” note and then realize later that this methodology doesn’t ... 
> work ... I’d like to rename it “986 Naming Notes”. 
>
 

> ... 986 as the title (... never changes), and "Naming Notes in 
> Zettelkasten" ... a caption.
>

Right. Makes great sense. Luhmann predated the PC so his approach was 
towards "don't revise, get it right at start" for both "index" & "title" 
and they are not clearly differentiated in his manual system. We have PCs 
so can hold them separately much easier now. Then they were not so 
separated.
  

>  A short UID is also good because e.g. if I make a graph from my notes, 
> their display will be uniform ...
>

Right. 
 

> The PROBLEM with going with an arbitrary UID (e.g. random nums; current 
>> date-time) is it has *no semantic content*.
>>
>> Luhmann's approach was to have "titling" that is both a unique identifier 
>> AND has some human meaningfulness
>>
>
> Even if a note has a name, in fact it will never be completely clear 
> because its context determines what effect its content achieves.
>

For example, if a note is titled "String," it says virtually nothing, 
> because it could be related to programming as well as music. The context is 
> mostly given by the text of the link pointing to it. If we just list the 
> note names, it won’t be so clear why they’re included in a given context. 
>

That is a VERY interesting point. And strongly right in one way and maybe 
wrong in another. The point is Luhmann did not have a computer so his 
mental process was likely different than ours now. His computer was largely 
in his head. Nonetheless he was able to achieve massive scale integration.

MY point here is about that in "externalising the brain" to a program do we 
actually lose out? Get conceptually lazy? Neglect our inbuilt ability at 
pattern recognition?
I'm not expecting you to answer that :-). 
But Luhmann remains a great example of exceptionally astute use of analogue 
simply structured data for purpose. (AND anticipating computers.)
 

> Also, I don’t think it’s possible to give a title to every note because 
> there’s something so abstract that it can’t be summed up in a few words. 
> For example, give a title to your most adventurous dream. 
>

Right.

Again it devolves to the scholar's context. Pre computer there was the 
general idea in social science scholarship that you *don't write 
a note unless it has clear content.* In other words, pre computer, writing 
had less "semantic gaps". With the advent of computers abstract "holding 
spaces" became much easier. At the same time it probably has also, made one 
aspect of scholarship weaker by over externalising the "brain" too early 
in a thought process.

Just comments
TT

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

Ha! Of course! That is elegant. And an "elusive obvious" found.

Best, TT

On Monday, 25 May 2020 09:14:53 UTC+2, bimlas wrote:
>
> Ok, it works, I just forgot to change "caption" to "title":
>
> \define dtid-link(created) <$link to={{{ [created<__created__>] }}}><$view 
> tiddler={{{ [created<__created__>] }}} field="title"/>
>
> This <> link is created based on `created` 
> field. Try to rename the target tiddler!
>
> Try it on TW.com!
>

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-25 Thread TonyM

Bimlas,

Nice simple method. I considered this at one point and did not proceeded 
with it for a few reasons that I recall.

   - I did not know how to guarantee uniqueness, especially for imported 
   tiddlers
   - Cloning tiddlers can defeat this with duplicates
   - I noticed many system tiddlers are "created" field free.

I did actually intervene and on given tiddlers tested the created date was 
unique, and if not incremented only the milliseconds to make it unique.

   - You can test for uniqueness on tiddlers that need this serial number, 
   and I copied it to the TSN tiddler Serial Number field so I knew this test 
   had being done.
   - I decided if this were to be a potentially global serial number it 
   would consume less space to start from 1 rather than in your example 
   20,131,129,090,249,275
   - I even considered converting the generated serial number to a base 62 
   number system - 26 lower case, 26 upper case and 10 numeric to make the 
   serial number even shorter
  - Although I maintained next SN in decimal.
   
Regardless of how one sets the serial number a small set of tools would 
help, such as editor toolbar to select a link to a tiddler that uses the 
serial number.

Regards
Tony


On Monday, May 25, 2020 at 5:14:53 PM UTC+10, bimlas wrote:
>
> Ok, it works, I just forgot to change "caption" to "title":
>
> \define dtid-link(created) <$link to={{{ [created<__created__>] }}}><$view 
> tiddler={{{ [created<__created__>] }}} field="title"/>
>
> This <> link is created based on `created` 
> field. Try to rename the target tiddler!
>
> Try it on TW.com!
>

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

Birthe C wrote (layout changed by me):

> ... all the great work done by Alberto Molina ... ***he had to start 
> over several times*. 
>
Tags, type-field, other fields among other things. 
>
And how to put titles together. 
>
It changed from the beginning to the last incarnation, I believe it was 
> http://magictabs.tiddlyspot.com/ and http://bottomtabs.tiddlyspot.com/ 
>
He obviously knew what he wanted and created beautiful tiddlywikies.
>

Great example! Highly pertinent.

I'd add the finished beautiful, showcase too: 
http://tw5.scholars.tiddlyspot.com/#William%20Shakespeare

But still not quite satisfied though.
> It seems the titles always end up being the object of discussion.
>

I think it's unavoidable because of the centrality of Titling to 
ordering/access in both TW and scholarship.
 

> Planning ahead for a life of study is not easy. 
> Luhmann found his system and stuck to it.
> Really would it be any easier for everyone to take up his system totally 
> and analogue, stick to it through life. I Doubt it.
>

Right. But nonetheless interesting.

FWIW, when you dealing with resources external to a TW a kind of "stubborn 
materiality" (actual singular objects) remains important.
For instance cataloging art works and discussing them.
Or, at a slightly more abstract level, film appreciation where one may be 
interested in different "vectors" (title, genre, style etc., etc)

The Luhmann & Molina's strongly *commit *towards a solution finding *their* 
"practical contexts of meaning".

My point in the OP was to try make clear there is no *one *way. You can use 
TW like *driving *a car made of fragments. And also *build *a new car that 
makes-up the fragments differently.

In an a way its obvious. But its not maybe as explicit as it could be that 
we are overwhelmingly "wet-ware" first :-)

Thoughts
TT

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-25 Thread bimlas

Ok, it works, I just forgot to change "caption" to "title":

\define dtid-link(created) <$link to={{{ [created<__created__>] }}}><$view 
tiddler={{{ [created<__created__>] }}} field="title"/>

This <> link is created based on `created` 
field. Try to rename the target tiddler!

Try it on TW.com!

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-25 Thread bimlas

I just realized that the "created" field can be used as a DTID and we can 
easily create links by a simple macro:

<$link to={{{ [created[20181122141438931]] }}}><$view tiddler={{{ 
[created[20181122141438931]] }}} field="caption"/>

PS.: Because of the syntax, I simply can't convert it to a macro because I 
can't use the datetime macro parameter as a variable in the filter.

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

bimlas wrote:
>
> I think the real problem that makes me unable to marry TiddlyWiki and 
> Zettelkasten is that I still don’t quite understand how the latter works. 
> It takes time for me to understand the theoretical knowledge I read about 
> it through practice.
>

One of the reasons Luhmann can be difficult to grasp--and by extension 
Zettelkasten--is actually quite a lot that is *implicit* is going on 
(meaning a lot was in Luhmann's "head", not explicated). But Luhmann 
successfully used the boxes of slip notes to facilitate *emergent knowing *in 
an unusually efficient way.

Just a comment
TT

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-24 Thread TonyM


Bimlas,

Even if a note has a name, in fact it will never be completely clear 
> because its context determines what effect its content achieves. For 
> example, if a note is titled "String," it says virtually nothing, because 
> it could be related to programming as well as music. The context is mostly 
> given by the text of the link pointing to it. If we just list the note 
> names, it won’t be so clear why they’re included in a given context. 
> Instead, you can use the text of the links to tell you how they relate to 
> that topic. For example, if we only use their titles in an introduction to 
> programming


This context sensitivity is why the links in relationships are best 
independent from just the title, On the second use of "string" you 
"discover" the need for a logical disambiguation that arose from one of the 
contexts in which you found a connection with string. At this point you may 
split and link to a different string "musical string" and rename the other 
"text string", or you may maintain the abstract "string" with subtiddlers 
for alternative definitions, this is uncovering or discovering information 
and relationships in the data set you are collecting. Except perhaps as a 
definition of the word "string", I may be unlikely to use this as a title 
without disambiguating from the start. 

For example, If I created a tiddler "string" to provide the definition of 
the word, I would realize there is now a set of relationships between word 
use and their definitions. So I would more likely disambiguate by a 
namespace $:/glossary/string providing a new context that of definition. 
his is all a matter of a "process of discovery", thus the underlying system 
must be capable of adaption.

For the system to be remain adaptive we must;

   - Avoid Dependencies on compound keys
   - Maintain maximum renamability (Relink or Serial Numbers)
   - Maximise the readability of titles independently of how we organise 
   tiddlers. 

If we deal with the context correctly we can use Captions to 
"re-ambiguate", so it appears as "string" but its link or tooltip is to a 
different "string".

This is an interesting discussion and two particular thoughts have arisen 
in my mind

   - If we can analyse this enough and empower users to handle any 
   relationships that appear, what a great feature it would be.
   - Perhaps we could scan a Tiddlywiki and extract all relationships found 
   and formalise these with a new tiddler for each, representing the 
   relationship(s) even identify different contexts, needs for disambiguation 
   and re-ambiguation etc...
   - Could we design "ambiguous tiddlers" that internally disambiguate? eg 
   String has the children "musical string" and "text string"
  - "musical string" could store the context in which it is valid eg 
  tiddler has music keyword.
   - Discovery of ambiguity and abstractions and the reverse are important, 
   let us capture and support them. 
   - and many others

Regards
Tony


Regards
Tony

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-24 Thread bimlas

PMario,
 

>  Hi, .. I think the Zettelkasten system doesn't need or use tags. ... 
> Tagging is a completely different concept, that wasn't used by Luhmann. ... 
>

Because of the implementation of Schlagwortregisterzettel (which I 
previously known as index zettel), I was thinking of using tags. In fact, 
of course, links can replace tags in this case.

I think the real problem that makes me unable to marry TiddlyWiki and 
Zettelkasten is that I still don’t quite understand how the latter works. 
It takes time for me to understand the theoretical knowledge I read about 
it through practice.

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-24 Thread bimlas

Josiah,

I write these answers without reading the linked articles (I don’t have 
much time and writing the answers is quite time consuming with Google 
Translator).
 

> 467-1a INSOMNIA (sleep disorder)
> 732-2c INSOMNIA , 1976 (film)
> 1034-1a INSOMNIA, 1982 (film)
>
>
> The point is this example is the shown "title" would be in the caption 
> field; the real Title is both a UID and human informative.
>

While learning about Zettelkasten, I realized that I think it’s best if the 
notes don’t have a name, or at least treat it separately from the UID, 
because if I change its content, its name might give incorrect information 
about it. For example, if I write a “986 Naming Notes in Zettelkasten” note 
and then realize later that this methodology doesn’t just work for 
Zettelkasten, I’d like to rename it “986 Naming Notes”. Therefore, I would 
like to use 986 as the title (which is never changes), and "Naming Notes in 
Zettelkasten" would be just a caption.

 A short UID is also good because e.g. if I make a graph from my notes, 
their display will be uniform and not as space consuming as if they had a 
human informative title.
 

> The PROBLEM with going with an arbitrary UID (e.g. random nums; current 
> date-time) is it has *no semantic content*.
>
> Luhmann's approach was to have "titling" that is both a unique identifier 
> AND has some human meaningfulness
>

Even if a note has a name, in fact it will never be completely clear 
because its context determines what effect its content achieves. For 
example, if a note is titled "String," it says virtually nothing, because 
it could be related to programming as well as music. The context is mostly 
given by the text of the link pointing to it. If we just list the note 
names, it won’t be so clear why they’re included in a given context. 
Instead, you can use the text of the links to tell you how they relate to 
that topic. For example, if we only use their titles in an introduction to 
programming:

* 123 How to write CleanCode?
* 456 What makes the code stink, or what does the bad code smell like?

If we explain the reason for the connection with links:

* Examples of good coding techniques
* Signs that warn of bad code

Also, I don’t think it’s possible to give a title to every note because 
there’s something so abstract that it can’t be summed up in a few words. 
For example, give a title to your most adventurous dream. 

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-24 Thread PMario

On Sunday, May 24, 2020 at 3:55:22 PM UTC+2, PMario wrote:

The second link TT posted 
>  has a very 
> interesting picture at Chapter 3.1 "Umfang und Inhalt" (Scope and Content) 
>

Link added. sry.

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-24 Thread PMario

On Saturday, May 23, 2020 at 11:40:45 PM UTC+2, bimlas wrote:
...

> I started working on a TiddlyWiki Zettelkasten edition, but it’s pretty 
> hard because in Tiddly it’s hard to handle tiddlers named with a Unified 
> Identifier (for example, the tag popup list becomes unusable). 
>

Hi, .. I think the Zettelkasten system doesn't need or use tags. ... 
Tagging is a completely different concept, that wasn't used by Luhmann. ... 

The second link TT posted has a very interesting picture at Chapter 3.1 
"Umfang und Inhalt" (Scope and Content) 

The paragraph ends with: "All drawers were without external labeling, which 
could have given information about the content of the respective drawer." 
(Google Translate is wrong here. ... excerpt -> drawer ... They are talking 
about the physical drawer made of wood.)

If a drawer would have a label, it would have been like tagging in our TW 
sense. .. But Luhmann's adressing system is based on "linking and 
backlinking" with a twist. .. 

That is discussed at 3.4 Numbering Principle and 4. Conclusion

Especially conclusion is very interesting. 
-mario

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-24 Thread Birthe C

I know this is not zettelkasten, but it is collection of knowledge. I 
remember all the great work done by Alberto Molina. It is hard to believe 
that many years have passed since then. But he had to start over several 
times. Tags, type-field, other fields among other things. And how to put 
titles together. It changed from the beginning to the last incarnation, I 
believe it was http://magictabs.tiddlyspot.com/ and 
http://bottomtabs.tiddlyspot.com/ He obviously knew what he wanted and 
created beautiful tiddlywikies. But still not quite satisfied though.
It seems the titles always end up being the object of discussion.

Planning ahead for a life of study is not easy. 
Luhmann found his system and stuck to it.
Really would it be any easier for everyone to take up his system totally 
and analogue, stick to it through life. I Doubt it.

Birthe

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

TonyM wrote:
>
>
> Tiddlers are already unique, but they need not be unique over time, if 
> renamed.
>

Re the specific examples I gave are *Luhmann naming*. 

467-1a INSOMNIA (sleep disorder)
> 732-2c IMSOMNIA , 1976 (film)
> 1034-1a INSOMNIA, 1982 (film)

They are *set once forever*. Never renamed That was the use case. I maybe 
did not make that clear enough?
That schema presupposes good "feel" for the "field of endeavor". Such that 
the maker never goes back to alter titles.

The other situations you are exploring are interesting too.

The OP is broadly concerned with "fragment conception & handling". 

Use cases *vary. *That is central, I think, some cases you need to 

... redo actual content

others

... combine/list differently for changed ends

others, again

... never change.

Maybe the issue I started with should be reframed with END-NEEDS more 
central.

I was most interested in exploring how meaning making interacts with tech 
systems in different ways, I guess. 

All three scenarios are viable in TW. All three imply different mental 
processes, ontology and realization code.

Best wishes
TT

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-24 Thread TonyM

TT,

Tiddlers are already unique, but they need not be unique over time, if 
renamed. The relink plugin solves this for many but not all use cases.
That's why I believe using a seperate field to store a serialy issued 
unique number, issued if that field is empty on the first save, is best way 
to go where relink does not work.

As you point out you may need to "disambiguate" the tiddler title, but this 
will only occur if there are titles to disambiguate. So if we used INSOMNIA 
we would be fine until another need for INSOMNIA arises, at which time a 
new tiddler with a new serial number could exist, and because we do not 
want to override the existing INSOMNIA the automatic response is to create 
"INSOMNIA 1", thus it has being disambiguated, since the tiddler is 
tolerant of renames you can use a better disambiguation process at anytime.

Personally the way I create tiddlers always permits them to be renamed 
without consequence, it is the tags or fields already catagorising them, so 
a name change makes no difference. As soon as a disambiguation need arises 
I tend to build different tiddler "types" eg film/medical. If you do use a 
value in the title to do this, I recommend placing this in a field of its 
own (in addition to the updated title) so later you can programmatically 
interrogate the title, and subtract the disambiguation from it. 

We could even make a disambiguation tool. That store both the field and 
appends to the title. Adding it to the import process as well.

So relink can do this most of the time, but having serial number is ideal 
if one needs to associate many tiddlers to one, and a few other cases, we 
just provide store the serial number of the "parent" as an example. Then 
whatever the name the tiddler with that serial number will be found. No 
need for relink.

The only reason I have not published this is I have three solutions, one of 
which would need a core hackability improvement. To demonstrate the I need 
to have all four to demo.

Custom Actions on standard buttons
Automatic or selective unique serial numbers
An auto tag generation facility  ie given tiddler name there automatically 
exists a tagname (if not unused) for that tiddler
action tags to allow actions tiddlers to be reused in multiple cases.

This is my designer challenge to deal with, and attempt to seek 
assistance/a collaborator in the dev thread unfortunately got no where.

Serial number may also need to be disambiguated by wiki name to support 
interwiki transfers.

Regards
Tony

On Sunday, 24 May 2020 18:25:15 UTC+10, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> bimlas wrote:
>>
>> I started working on a TiddlyWiki Zettelkasten edition, but it’s pretty 
>> hard because in Tiddly it’s hard to handle tiddlers named with a Unified 
>> Identifier (for example, the tag popup list becomes unusable). Is there any 
>> example TW from which ideas could be gained?
>>
>
> Good point!
>
> TonyM replied about idea of using a subsidiary UID he has worked on. Maybe 
> a useful step.
>
> But think your point in using the TITLE field as a unique identifier is 
> right, as that is what it IS, built in. There are several ways of thinking 
> about it. To give an example of a possible Luhmann style indexing that auto 
> disambiguates for "Insomnia" ...
>
> 467-1a INSOMNIA (sleep disorder)
> 732-2c IMSOMNIA , 1976 (film)
> 1034-1a INSOMNIA, 1982 (film)
>
>
> The point is this example is the shown "title" would be in the caption 
> field; the real Title is both a UID and human informative.
>
> Now, to your real QUESTION: "the tag popup list becomes unusable"
>
> Just wondering if, in the end, that popup could be modified to display a 
> different field than "title".
>
> The PROBLEM with going with an arbitrary UID (e.g. random nums; current 
> date-time) is it has *no semantic content*.
>
> Luhmann's approach was to have "titling" that is both a unique identifier 
> AND has some human meaningfulness
>
> Just thoughts
> TT
>

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-24 Thread Saq Imtiaz


>
>
> But think your point in using the TITLE field as a unique identifier is 
> right, as that is what it IS, built in. 
>

Using the title also has the advantage of uniqueness being guaranteed and 
quick lookups (in terms of performance) via filters, which is important 
when working with larger datasets.

Now, to your real QUESTION: "the tag popup list becomes unusable"
>
> Just wondering if, in the end, that popup could be modified to display a 
> different field than "title".
>
>
This has been my approach when using UUIDs for titles, display always uses 
the caption field if it exists, and otherwise defaults to the title. 
However, this is difficult to do as a plugin and yet ensure that it affects 
everywhere the tiddler titles may be displayed in TW.

Cheers,
Saq

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

springer

Excellent example of practically what occurs. This kind of material account 
of actual usage is invaluable imo.
Its just as important as technical understanding of how to do it.

Best wishes
TT

On Thursday, 21 May 2020 17:50:30 UTC+2, springer wrote:
>
> On fragments/chunks/tiddlers philosophy,
>
> I entirely endorse Tony's point that one has to think dynamically about 
> this. As a project develops, not only one's familiarity with the subject 
> but also the actual work being done may shift scope. 
>
> Let me also just point out, for this discussion, that sometimes the 
> author/builder of a site will be working at a level that is more 
> fine-grained than the reader/consumer of a site.
>
> Still, it's helpful for me to start with a benchmark. Motivated by my work 
> in studying Japanese, I want to suggest that there's something like a 
> "sentence"-level unit below which one can have reference, but not competent 
> assertion. And focusing on smaller bits can lead to bad habits. (My study 
> has settled in with a brilliant zero-translation SRS program focused on 
> whole model sentences, with gradual accretions in the vocabulary covered.)
>
> Switching back to TW, we can ask what are the sentence-like 
> (assertible/endorsable) units for the project at hand, and treat those as 
> natural starting-points. (In practice, it may be more like a paragraph, but 
> a paragraph with a single sentence-like point at issue.) That doesn't mean 
> that there's no point in having tiddlers for, say, a single word (like a 
> noun), but then the function of that tiddler will be something like "This 
> noun's function and connections are like so."
>
> One great use of the dynamic tables plugins is that when I realize that a 
> set of tiddlers has gotten "overgrown" (carrying content beyond the 
> "sentence"-worth that has emergent metadata structure to it), I can more 
> easily set up a field, move content over into the field, and feel confident 
> that the shift has been a clean one. 
>
> Still, when I go to present information to students, I often want to 
> emphasize various compound tiddlers... and though each one of these still 
> has a single "sentence"-like point, the compound tiddlers (usually template 
> and/or TOC-srtuctured, in my case) put the most pedagogically useful 
> supporting bits in view as well.
>
> -Springer
>
> On Wednesday, May 20, 2020 at 9:19:16 AM UTC-4, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> Ciao TonyM ...
>>>
>>>
>>> How do I decide? For me its based on decades of experience in IT with a 
>>> conceptual approach to understanding and negotiating my way through 
>>> complexity.
>>>
>>> Although I actively try and find ways to make my implicit knowledge 
>>> explicit. 
>>>
>>
>> Very good note. I picked out two great points to underline ...
>>  
>>
>>> ... meta concepts I am developing on tiddlywiki is rapid and reiterative 
>>> design methods 
>>
>>
>> Right. Reiteration. Recursive. Self-aware.
>>
>> My point is this: TW is quite unusual in actually reasonably supporting 
>> human cyclic cognitive process.
>> Of course NO computer yet can work as well on *the liminal* that humans 
>> constantly sense, build, and act from. 
>> But I'd guess the "fragment/tiddler" is quite close. 
>> It encourages *appropriate reduction to salient partitions.*
>>
>> ... the answer to your question is a process rather than a rule.
>>
>>
>> Right. The heart parts are "fragment" yet "fragment" is not what it might 
>> first look like. 
>> Good fragments are tempered by your mind working in context for purpose.
>>
>> Thanks!
>> TT
>>
>>>

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

bimlas wrote:
>
> I started working on a TiddlyWiki Zettelkasten edition, but it’s pretty 
> hard because in Tiddly it’s hard to handle tiddlers named with a Unified 
> Identifier (for example, the tag popup list becomes unusable). Is there any 
> example TW from which ideas could be gained?
>

Good point!

TonyM replied about idea of using a subsidiary UID he has worked on. Maybe 
a useful step.

But think your point in using the TITLE field as a unique identifier is 
right, as that is what it IS, built in. There are several ways of thinking 
about it. To give an example of a possible Luhmann style indexing that auto 
disambiguates for "Insomnia" ...

467-1a INSOMNIA (sleep disorder)
732-2c IMSOMNIA , 1976 (film)
1034-1a INSOMNIA, 1982 (film)

The point is this example is the shown "title" would be in the caption 
field; the real Title is both a UID and human informative.

Now, to your real QUESTION: "the tag popup list becomes unusable"

Just wondering if, in the end, that popup could be modified to display a 
different field than "title".

The PROBLEM with going with an arbitrary UID (e.g. random nums; current 
date-time) is it has *no semantic content*.

Luhmann's approach was to have "titling" that is both a unique identifier 
AND has some human meaningfulness

Just thoughts
TT

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

bimlas wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, a lot of things are still obscure about Zettelkasten, but 
> I’m very interested in the topic because basically it can be applied 
> regardless of device: any note-taking app, wiki, even an issue tracker, and 
> of course it works on paper.
>

Right. Especially if you can't read German. But some of the "concepts" the 
Zettelkasten community use in discussion are very, very good. This is 
likely because of the exceptional ability in German to combine words to 
easily create exact new concepts. The discussions are able to differentiate 
many variant ways of linking, for instance, accurately & without ambiguity.

Zettelkasten is, essentially, a "theory" of connection building with a 
strong commitment to *emergent meaning*, yet, at the same time a steadfast 
commitment to each item, on creation, being *UID'd forever, *yet with no 
limiting hierarchy.

The several implementations in software do vary. Personally I find 
understanding Luhmann's original manual method extremely helpful in dealing 
with the TW relevant issue of "fragment evolution to new wholes". For 
instance: 
https://takingnotenow.blogspot.com/2007/12/luhmanns-zettelkasten.html and 
https://niklas-luhmann-archiv.de/nachlass/zettelkasten (Google translate 
will give a good enough translation).

Best wishes

TT

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-23 Thread TonyM

Bimlas,

Do you mean when you say "Unified Identifier" are you talking about a 
unique ID? I found an algorithm and way to implement in tiddlywiki so any 
tiddler can be referenced by its Unique ID regardless of its title.

Just ask if that is what you are looking for.

Regards
Tony


On Sunday, May 24, 2020 at 7:40:45 AM UTC+10, bimlas wrote:
>
> Unfortunately, a lot of things are still obscure about Zettelkasten, but 
> I’m very interested in the topic because basically it can be applied 
> regardless of device: any note-taking app, wiki, even an issue tracker, and 
> of course it works on paper.
>
> I started working on a TiddlyWiki Zettelkasten edition, but it’s pretty 
> hard because in Tiddly it’s hard to handle tiddlers named with a Unified 
> Identifier (for example, the tag popup list becomes unusable). Is there any 
> example TW from which ideas could be gained?
>

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-23 Thread bimlas

Unfortunately, a lot of things are still obscure about Zettelkasten, but 
I’m very interested in the topic because basically it can be applied 
regardless of device: any note-taking app, wiki, even an issue tracker, and 
of course it works on paper.

I started working on a TiddlyWiki Zettelkasten edition, but it’s pretty 
hard because in Tiddly it’s hard to handle tiddlers named with a Unified 
Identifier (for example, the tag popup list becomes unusable). Is there any 
example TW from which ideas could be gained?

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-21 Thread TonyM

Folks,

Give splitregexp[\n] try below code fragment on tiddlywiki.com to see how 
lines can be read as fragments.

<$list filter="HelloThere">
   <$list filter="[all[current]get[text]splitregexp[\n]]" variable=abstract>
   <$link to=<> ><$text text=<>/>
   


Using the recent xml tools adds even more possibilities, including finding 
a way to extract html sections that can be address elsewhere.

A more advanced version of the above in my tiddlers contain a comment 
section 

And the filter I use in the above code is

[all[current]get[text]splitregexp[\n]prefix[Abstract:]]

So I am fragmenting content as if I through a grenade into it.

The prefix operator is a friend here; it could tell the difference between, 
https:// and file:// and anything else that may be present in a line


Regards
Tony

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 4:26:27 PM UTC+10, TonyM wrote:
>
> Hay, I am all for chunking, but we must realise moving a chunk is 
> important, rather than copying it, Chunks need to keep their name, if we do 
> make copies, or we can loose data with duplicates.
>
> Another point is combining chunks can remain virtual with chunks remaining 
> themself. We could find a way to do sections like in TWC to access chunks 
> within tiddlers, but this is a slippery slope.
>
> So things can be chunked until they can be chunked no more, then can be 
> collected and ordered to combine them virtually, but avoid physically 
> combining them unless there is an identified reason to de-chunk.
>
> This can be compared to Analysis and Synthesis but in this case synthesis 
> is virtual and flexible. We never loose the gains of analysis.The chucks we 
> find. Careful chunking will always record what we divided, to do the 
> chunking and maintain this information in the system. 
>
>
> Regards
> Tony
>
> On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 4:02:40 PM UTC+10, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>>
>> TiddlyTweeter wrote:

 Is "FRAGMENT" scope ONLY intuitively known, rather than formally 
 definable? If so  then ...?

>>>  
>> Mat responded ... 
>>
>>> ...then the important thing is that we have a system that allows the 
>>> data to change along with the changes of our feeble minds. To merge or 
>>> split the fragments as we see fit. IMO TW does this better than any other 
>>> software I know of BUT there is definite room for experimentation and 
>>> improvement. For example, it would be cool if we could drag'n drop to merge 
>>> tiddlers. And if the excision functionality was more accessible.
>>>
>>
>> That's interesting. "More ways to re-chunk" ?? Sounds right, to make data 
>> and concepts of that data more explicitly re-chunkable ?? That loop, to 
>> re-do fragment size & scope, I think fits human meaning making process 
>> better than idea of "getting it right"--which completely overlooks we are 
>> inherently iterative.
>>
>> FWIW, In my own case, I am very interested in facilitating associative 
>> thinking. For example have a wiki of thousands of phrases (sub sentence) 
>> that you can randomise and then transclude and save interesting combos of. 
>> Repeat at will.
>>
>> Basically, a William Burroughs "cut-up" machine. That use of random 
>> "fragments" supports associative cognition and pattern (new story) 
>> recognition in a helpful low overhead way.
>>
>> Thoughts
>> TT
>>
>

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-21 Thread springer

On fragments/chunks/tiddlers philosophy,

I entirely endorse Tony's point that one has to think dynamically about 
this. As a project develops, not only one's familiarity with the subject 
but also the actual work being done may shift scope. 

Let me also just point out, for this discussion, that sometimes the 
author/builder of a site will be working at a level that is more 
fine-grained than the reader/consumer of a site.

Still, it's helpful for me to start with a benchmark. Motivated by my work 
in studying Japanese, I want to suggest that there's something like a 
"sentence"-level unit below which one can have reference, but not competent 
assertion. And focusing on smaller bits can lead to bad habits. (My study 
has settled in with a brilliant zero-translation SRS program focused on 
whole model sentences, with gradual accretions in the vocabulary covered.)

Switching back to TW, we can ask what are the sentence-like 
(assertible/endorsable) units for the project at hand, and treat those as 
natural starting-points. (In practice, it may be more like a paragraph, but 
a paragraph with a single sentence-like point at issue.) That doesn't mean 
that there's no point in having tiddlers for, say, a single word (like a 
noun), but then the function of that tiddler will be something like "This 
noun's function and connections are like so."

One great use of the dynamic tables plugins is that when I realize that a 
set of tiddlers has gotten "overgrown" (carrying content beyond the 
"sentence"-worth that has emergent metadata structure to it), I can more 
easily set up a field, move content over into the field, and feel confident 
that the shift has been a clean one. 

Still, when I go to present information to students, I often want to 
emphasize various compound tiddlers... and though each one of these still 
has a single "sentence"-like point, the compound tiddlers (usually template 
and/or TOC-srtuctured, in my case) put the most pedagogically useful 
supporting bits in view as well.

-Springer

On Wednesday, May 20, 2020 at 9:19:16 AM UTC-4, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Ciao TonyM ...
>>
>>
>> How do I decide? For me its based on decades of experience in IT with a 
>> conceptual approach to understanding and negotiating my way through 
>> complexity.
>>
>> Although I actively try and find ways to make my implicit knowledge 
>> explicit. 
>>
>
> Very good note. I picked out two great points to underline ...
>  
>
>> ... meta concepts I am developing on tiddlywiki is rapid and reiterative 
>> design methods 
>
>
> Right. Reiteration. Recursive. Self-aware.
>
> My point is this: TW is quite unusual in actually reasonably supporting 
> human cyclic cognitive process.
> Of course NO computer yet can work as well on *the liminal* that humans 
> constantly sense, build, and act from. 
> But I'd guess the "fragment/tiddler" is quite close. 
> It encourages *appropriate reduction to salient partitions.*
>
> ... the answer to your question is a process rather than a rule.
>
>
> Right. The heart parts are "fragment" yet "fragment" is not what it might 
> first look like. 
> Good fragments are tempered by your mind working in context for purpose.
>
> Thanks!
> TT
>
>>

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-21 Thread TonyM

Hay, I am all for chunking, but we must realise moving a chunk is 
important, rather than copying it, Chunks need to keep their name, if we do 
make copies, or we can loose data with duplicates.

Another point is combining chunks can remain virtual with chunks remaining 
themself. We could find a way to do sections like in TWC to access chunks 
within tiddlers, but this is a slippery slope.

So things can be chunked until they can be chunked no more, then can be 
collected and ordered to combine them virtually, but avoid physically 
combining them unless there is an identified reason to de-chunk.

This can be compared to Analysis and Synthesis but in this case synthesis 
is virtual and flexible. We never loose the gains of analysis.The chucks we 
find. Careful chunking will always record what we divided, to do the 
chunking and maintain this information in the system. 

Regards
Tony

On Thursday, May 21, 2020 at 4:02:40 PM UTC+10, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
>
> TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>>
>>> Is "FRAGMENT" scope ONLY intuitively known, rather than formally 
>>> definable? If so  then ...?
>>>
>>  
> Mat responded ... 
>
>> ...then the important thing is that we have a system that allows the data 
>> to change along with the changes of our feeble minds. To merge or split the 
>> fragments as we see fit. IMO TW does this better than any other software I 
>> know of BUT there is definite room for experimentation and improvement. For 
>> example, it would be cool if we could drag'n drop to merge tiddlers. And if 
>> the excision functionality was more accessible.
>>
>
> That's interesting. "More ways to re-chunk" ?? Sounds right, to make data 
> and concepts of that data more explicitly re-chunkable ?? That loop, to 
> re-do fragment size & scope, I think fits human meaning making process 
> better than idea of "getting it right"--which completely overlooks we are 
> inherently iterative.
>
> FWIW, In my own case, I am very interested in facilitating associative 
> thinking. For example have a wiki of thousands of phrases (sub sentence) 
> that you can randomise and then transclude and save interesting combos of. 
> Repeat at will.
>
> Basically, a William Burroughs "cut-up" machine. That use of random 
> "fragments" supports associative cognition and pattern (new story) 
> recognition in a helpful low overhead way.
>
> Thoughts
> TT
>

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-21 Thread TiddlyTweeter

> TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>>
>> Is "FRAGMENT" scope ONLY intuitively known, rather than formally 
>> definable? If so  then ...?
>>
>  
Mat responded ... 

> ...then the important thing is that we have a system that allows the data 
> to change along with the changes of our feeble minds. To merge or split the 
> fragments as we see fit. IMO TW does this better than any other software I 
> know of BUT there is definite room for experimentation and improvement. For 
> example, it would be cool if we could drag'n drop to merge tiddlers. And if 
> the excision functionality was more accessible.
>

That's interesting. "More ways to re-chunk" ?? Sounds right, to make data 
and concepts of that data more explicitly re-chunkable ?? That loop, to 
re-do fragment size & scope, I think fits human meaning making process 
better than idea of "getting it right"--which completely overlooks we are 
inherently iterative.

FWIW, In my own case, I am very interested in facilitating associative 
thinking. For example have a wiki of thousands of phrases (sub sentence) 
that you can randomise and then transclude and save interesting combos of. 
Repeat at will.

Basically, a William Burroughs "cut-up" machine. That use of random 
"fragments" supports associative cognition and pattern (new story) 
recognition in a helpful low overhead way.

Thoughts
TT

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-20 Thread TonyM

TT

Your welcome, I appreciate yout raising conceptual and philosophical issues 
about tiddlywiki.

Thanks
Tony

On Wednesday, May 20, 2020 at 11:19:16 PM UTC+10, TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Ciao TonyM ...
>>
>>
>> How do I decide? For me its based on decades of experience in IT with a 
>> conceptual approach to understanding and negotiating my way through 
>> complexity.
>>
>> Although I actively try and find ways to make my implicit knowledge 
>> explicit. 
>>
>
> Very good note. I picked out two great points to underline ...
>  
>
>> ... meta concepts I am developing on tiddlywiki is rapid and reiterative 
>> design methods 
>
>
> Right. Reiteration. Recursive. Self-aware.
>
> My point is this: TW is quite unusual in actually reasonably supporting 
> human cyclic cognitive process.
> Of course NO computer yet can work as well on *the liminal* that humans 
> constantly sense, build, and act from. 
> But I'd guess the "fragment/tiddler" is quite close. 
> It encourages *appropriate reduction to salient partitions.*
>
> ... the answer to your question is a process rather than a rule.
>
>
> Right. The heart parts are "fragment" yet "fragment" is not what it might 
> first look like. 
> Good fragments are tempered by your mind working in context for purpose.
>
> Thanks!
> TT
>
>>

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

Ciao TonyM ...
>
>
> How do I decide? For me its based on decades of experience in IT with a 
> conceptual approach to understanding and negotiating my way through 
> complexity.
>
> Although I actively try and find ways to make my implicit knowledge 
> explicit. 
>

Very good note. I picked out two great points to underline ...
 

> ... meta concepts I am developing on tiddlywiki is rapid and reiterative 
> design methods 


Right. Reiteration. Recursive. Self-aware.

My point is this: TW is quite unusual in actually reasonably supporting 
human cyclic cognitive process.
Of course NO computer yet can work as well on *the liminal* that humans 
constantly sense, build, and act from. 
But I'd guess the "fragment/tiddler" is quite close. 
It encourages *appropriate reduction to salient partitions.*

... the answer to your question is a process rather than a rule.


Right. The heart parts are "fragment" yet "fragment" is not what it might 
first look like. 
Good fragments are tempered by your mind working in context for purpose.

Thanks!
TT

>

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

Ciao bimlas, I am aware you think about these kinds of issues too. What is 
information? How can I divide and organize it?

You may find this post I made on Zettelkasten interesting 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/pCcWB2zVD40/3YILA5jsBQAJ.

Zettelkasten was originally a MANUAL system. 

I think there is a lot of merit in deriving systems later from previous 
manual systems. 

Not least because they are cognitively graspable. Luhmann was a genius of 
manual organisation.

Best wishes
TT

On Wednesday, 20 May 2020 14:15:25 UTC+2, bimlas wrote:
>
> Similar thread: https://forum.zettelkasten.de/discussion/comment/5842
>
> PS.: The Zettelkasten community is as philosophical as TiddlyWiki, maybe 
> we could learn something from each other.
>

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-20 Thread TonyM

How do I decide? For me its based on decades of experience in IT with a
conceptual approach to understanding and negotiating my way through complexity.

Although I actively try and find ways to make my implicit knowledge explicit.
It is difficult to communicate with people of many different experiences and
skills. I have a consulting business called Interpreting IT to back this up.

To be frank one way to decide is to pay for professional help from someone with
subject matter expertise. Never the less I continue to give freely and try and
answer this very kind of question.

Not withstanding the fact that experience can answer these questions it is
quite easy to "rebase", reconfigure or redesign the way data and processing is
organised in tiddlywiki using tiddlywiki itself so we are free to design then
redesign.

One of the meta concepts I am developing on tiddlywiki is rapid and reiterative
design methods and as a result I am considering researching and writing a book
with the working title "Occams electric shaver" a computer equivalent of
"Occams razor", and this shows we must build then simplify repeatedly,
abstracting many times. In some ways this idea shows how the answer to your
question is a process rather than a rule.

So fragments will be the size they need to be depending on how mature the
design is and in tiddly wiki this keeps returning to the tiddler.

I hope this makes sense.
Regards
Tony

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-20 Thread bimlas

Similar 
thread: https://forum.zettelkasten.de/discussion/comment/5842#Comment_5842

PS.: The Zettelkasten community is as philosophical as TiddlyWiki, maybe we 
could learn something from each other.

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-20 Thread Mat

TiddlyTweeter wrote:
>
> Is "FRAGMENT" scope ONLY intuitively known, rather than formally 
> definable? If so  then ...?
>

...then the important thing is that we have a system that allows the data 
to change along with the changes of our feeble minds. To merge or split the 
fragments as we see fit. IMO TW does this better than any other software I 
know of BUT there is definite room for experimentation and improvement. For 
example, it would be cool if we could drag'n drop to merge tiddlers. And if 
the excision functionality was more accessible.

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

Mat wrote:
>
>
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/s9Y_w85282I/ZsIToC88AAAJ
>

this ...

*(me) HOW small is a good fragment? And how would you know?*
>>>
>>>
> (mat) I can answer this... in a more general way but also with an exact 
> answer:
> A tiddler, i.e the smallest semantically meaningful bit of information, 
> should be EXACTLY as small as the context demands for it to be meaningful.
> There is not reason to split up, say, the huge Encyclopedia Britannica 
> tiddler if one never needs any subpart of it (and if the system can handle 
> such a big tiddler).
> And it is pointless to have a tiddler for each ingredient in your pancake 
> recipe if those tiddlers are never used in any other context. 

 Apart from fact you more aware than me I asked a related question afore, 
very good answer fit to the issue.

What I think interesting. Very muted in previous notes on this. Is the 
enormous role of ...

1 -- cognition in knowing IN ADVANCE. It may be a mystery left as such. But 
HOW do you know what is the right approach on chunking?

2 -- I think the main thing you, Mat, flag is CONTEXT. That matches my 
experience. Yet knowing that context is not trivial to proving.

Is "FRAGMENT" scope ONLY intuitively known, rather than formally definable? 
If so  then ...?

Asking.

TT

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?

2020-05-20 Thread Mat

My thoughts:

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/tiddlywiki/s9Y_w85282I/ZsIToC88AAAJ

<:-)

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[tw5] Re: Query: What is a fragment?