RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
Hi people, I just came back from holidays and red all this thread at once. The main joke is in the initial posting where Jon goes from telling Costin that "It really scares me that you are the only person..." in its beginning to "We just don't have enough overall developer resources to support two different forks". I red it and I thought that Jon was trying to recruit Costin (the "only" TC3.3 man) to TC4.x because Jakarta had not enough developer resources to afford "wasting" Costin on 3.3 (only Costin since Jon says he is alone). Man... this got me confused: I thought Sun had a bunch of people working full time on Tomcat and then I learn that Jon is concerned about wasting ONE part-timer's work with 3.3!!! (Remember again that Jon says that Costin is the ONLY person interested in 3.3.) =:o) I am glad that further postings confirmed that there is a bunch of full time developers working on 4.x and that there is a lot of other people interested and working on 3.3. I am glad because: - Tomcat 4 is a very interesting evolution; - I can not afford to hold my breath until 4.x gets stable and I hope that 3.3 "gets there" soon(er) enough to provide me with a good production Servlet engine that supports JSPs. I would like to see a finished production Tomcat server soon. However, there is NO Tomcat version yet that provides all the functionality and robustness that most serious developers expect from a Servlet engine. The fact that production experience is being injected in Tomcat 3.3 is a reassurance to me that such a version will happen soon enough. Forcing the people that are doing that work in 3.3 to quit from 3.3 and learn 4.x is not the shortest path (in time) to use their knowledge in having _some_ Tomcat version REALLY production ready. I will believe that 4.x is production ready when it happens. The time-to-become-stable estimation is one of those that fails more often and by larger amounts. In the meantime, 3.3 looks closer. Refactoring is different from such a large redesign/rewrite as Tomcat 4.x is - and this holds true even if you call it Catalina or JServ 2. Lets see: - There are to many new ingredients, too many new components and too many new developers in Tomcat 4. Too many things can fail; - OTOH, in 3.3 there is Costin and 3.x-experienced guys cleaning up, refactoring and fixing what they know well, only adding new stuff where essential. Agin: - On one hand I see a lot of new pieces on 4.x that can provide a lot of unforeseen issues. - And OTOH I see work over a better known base with much less new pieces on 3.3. So, I have to believe that 3.3 is the shortest path to have some production ready Tomcat. I respect Craig a lot. A LOT really. But his judgment might be a bit biased since 4.x is his child. It is so easy to be (over)optimistic about the time-to-production of one's own child! I just don't know what to think about Jon. Maybe he got overexcited about 4.x new features and he wants to have it ready ASAP. Maybe that is why he makes this kind of political move with such enthusiasm that he even becomes incoherent. My political move is to defend 3.3, since I only get overexcited by having a Production Quality Tomcat AsSoonAsPossible! Yes, I like the future in Tomcat 4.x, but I need a PRESENT really soon too and 3.3 would be good enough for that. I will be clear - if Costin is forced to move away I will try to use anything that him and the other 3.3 guys post on SourceForge, on any other site or mail me privately. BUT if that happens I will be much less motivated to come back to Tomcat since Tomcat would have become a feud where there is no longer room for the competition and complementarities of good ideas. Remember that Tomcat 4.x wouldn't exist so soon if the argument against dividing resources would be applied with the focus on getting a production quality 3.x server out. And one could argue that such focus would better fulfill the responsibilities of the project towards its users. In the end, I think we are better with this division of resources and interests since it ensures that products get fully matured (as 3.3 for the 3.x line) while future more sophisticated designs evolve (4.x). Have fun, Paulo Gaspar -Original Message- From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Costin, It really scares me that you are the only person (as far as I can tell) that is seriously interested in maintaining and developing Tomcat 3.x into the future. It is not good to have the entire rest of the core developers work on Tomcat 4.x and having you sit here and say that you are going to work towards back porting everything that the Tomcat 4.x people come up with on your own. Talk about a complete duplication of effort by only a single individual. We just don't have enough overall developer resources to support two different forks of the same project going on at the same time! This isn't good! :-( thanks, -jon
RE: [VOTE] Committer Status for Marc Saegesser (was: Re: 3.x subm itters [was RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x])
+1 "Pour la plupart des hommes, se corriger consiste à changer de défauts." -- Voltaire
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: GOMEZ Henri wrote: I remember the hard discution about spinaker on xerces mailing-list and IBM became more open after Sun position. But in the Tomcat case we have Sun on one side and individuals on the others. Not really the same condition. Hello Sam ?-) Tomcat 3.0 was clearly a Sun project. Most of the design discussions were held in conference rooms in Sun. The release was made with virtually no prior discussion on the mailing list (remember sideswiped?). And we, as the newly formed Apache Software Foundation, accepted that code in donation as a point of start for the Jakarta Project. I was there, in that meeting room, that day when we outlined how the process would have evolved, with Jon, Stefano and Brian. And I was there, on stage at JavaONE, when Patricia Sueltz announced the spinoff of the project againg with Jon, Stefano and Brian. If that has been a wrong decision, we four are the people to blame... Fairly or unfairly, a number of Sun people felt excluded from participating in Xerces. That's a slightly different thing, but again is not Sun or IBM to blame, is the people behind that thing (oh shit, I'm one of them! Again!) None of this is the case for any current release of Tomcat. In particular, I personally do not feel like I am being denied an opportunity to contribute to Tomcat 3.2.2, 3.3, or 4.0. And let's consider that Catalina is the good old Apache-JServ 2.0 who was never released... I believe that for all of us who started this thing Catalina is our little child. At that time none of us were paid to work on Servlet Engines, what happened later has a very small relevance... Yes, many of the people working on Catalina are employed by Sun. Arguably, in many cases (including Craig), they are employed by Sun because they work on Catalina, not the other way around. Yes, I now work at Sun, and let me tell you guys, it's fucking fun. I'm not working there because I like Sun, or I'm a Sun fanatic. Yes, I use Solaris, but I'd rather work at Apple if it was for my preference. They were simply the right kids with the right offer at the right time... Can you blame Sun for that? I can't, they saved my butt as an Open Source developer, paying me to work on what I wanted to (shit, why Apple is not interested in Tomcat?) And let me tell you that hiring me and Craig was probably their worst mistake, as we don't shut up and say "yes" to whatever our managers say. Actually, it's all the way around, we make so much noise that Jim sometimes hates us :) :) We're open source developers first... Pier -- Pier Fumagalli http://www.betaversion.org/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
Jon Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 12/19/2000 10:48 AM, "Larry Isaacs" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If Tomcat 3.3 can prove it is as stable as Tomcat 3.2.x and is more spec compliant than 3.2.x, Why does it have to be called Tomcat 3.3? Why not Tomcat 3.2.x+1? Because it's architecture is so much different from 3.2 :) I think it would be a disservice to not release it as the final RI for Servlet 2.2/JSP 1.1. I'm not suggesting that we not release it. If the architecture doesn't change, neither do I :) Pier -- Pier Fumagalli http://www.betaversion.org/ mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
And we, as the newly formed Apache Software Foundation, accepted that code in donation as a point of start for the Jakarta Project. I was there, in that meeting room, that day when we outlined how the process would have evolved, with Jon, Stefano and Brian. And I was there, on stage at JavaONE, when Patricia Sueltz announced the spinoff of the project againg with Jon, Stefano and Brian. If that has been a wrong decision, we four are the people to blame... Please, nobody is to blame. You and others have made Tomcat a credible alternative to PRODUCTS like WebSphere or WebLogic. Sun give code to the Apache Foundation and whatever the original code was (design, coding, ...) you have made it involving and it's certainly better now that before. None of this is the case for any current release of Tomcat. In particular, I personally do not feel like I am being denied an opportunity to contribute to Tomcat 3.2.2, 3.3, or 4.0. And let's consider that Catalina is the good old Apache-JServ 2.0 who was never released... I believe that for all of us who started this thing Catalina is our little child. At that time none of us were paid to work on Servlet Engines, what happened later has a very small relevance... Nobody say that Cataline/JServ2 is a bad piece of software. The original thread as derived since I and others 3.x commiters just want to see Tomcat 3.3 code to be evolution of 3.2. I never say that TC 3.3 is better than TC 4.0/JServ 2.0, I just say that TC 3.3 is much more easier to understand than 3.2 and since it didn't require a JDK 1.2, it will be much more suited for low end configuration. Costin (certainly an old assembler hacker) have done a great job in optimizing many area of the code. It will be a pitty to see this works trashed. Yes, I now work at Sun, and let me tell you guys, it's fucking fun. I'm not working there because I like Sun, or I'm a Sun fanatic. Yes, I use Solaris, but I'd rather work at Apple if it was for my preference. They were simply the right kids with the right offer at the right time... Can you blame Sun for that? I can't, they saved my butt as an Open Source developer, paying me to work on what I wanted to (shit, why Apple is not interested in Tomcat?) Sun has hired the right developpers for the right project. May be OpenSource will became also a good way for corporations to detect talentuous peoples. The question is not why didn't Apple contact you but why didn't IBM or WebLogic didn't try to hire you ;-))) And let me tell you that hiring me and Craig was probably their worst mistake, as we don't shut up and say "yes" to whatever our managers say. Actually, it's all the way around, we make so much noise that Jim sometimes hates us :) :) We're open source developers first... When you hire in a cooporation an OpenSource fellow, you hire more than one developper, you hire a community ;-) At least IBM and Sun have understood that. I hope that will be the end of this thread. But as a side effect I notice that many people offers to help on TC 3.2 or 3.3, and some goes commiters. Long life to Apache Foundation. Merry Christmas and an Happy New Year to all of you ;-)
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
Ok, too much mail on this thread, I'll try to summarize my answers: - The only reason for me to stay on this project is that I want to finish something that I started. In my view, tomcat 3.3 ( or what will be in the main branch of cvs in about a month or 2 ) will be the "right" thing based on the current architecture. Tomcat3.2 is better than 3.1, but it's not yet there. - Jon, Craig claim that you'll be better served by 3.2.x - well, look at the code. It's the same as saying that users would have been better if only bug fixes were done in 3.1.x - and no real development on 3.2. You can compare 3.1 and 3.2 and decide for yourself. ( and BTW, most of the development on 3.2 was done by very few people, the same that are developing 3.3 ). - Tomcat 3.1, 3.2, 3.3 all share the same _design_. Tomcat 4 has a different _design_. The code changed quite a bit in 3.x - that's true. Refactoring is _good_, and improves the quality of the code, but it's not making 3.3 so different than 3.2. BTW, the analogy with Apache2.0 is wrong - Apache2.0 started from Apache1.3.x code, and it has the same architecture ( and builds on top of 1.3.x ). And Apache is built on top of NCSA code - rewritten few times, but there are still traces and ideas from the original code to show you the evolution. - There are 2 things that are important in 3.x - one is the fact that it is the sum of contributions from many smart developers, like Gal, Glenn, Nacho, Alex, Henri, Larry, Dan ( not to mention James, who did the initial design). Finishing their work is a form of respect. And most open source projects succeed by respecting their developers. Telling that "tomcat3.3 shouldn't happen because we decided we want 4.0 in and 3.x out" is not a form of respect for people's contributions. The code that is part of 3.x is result of many developers work, and I don't think you have a right to just throw it away. - The other thing I like about 3.x is the design. It's a small core, and you can build on top of it. And the modules can be developed independently - so after 3.3 is done, I can implement the 2.3 spec, do performance improvements, add all the features that 4.x will have - and that without having to go through all the political mess that is this list. I plan to do that - and for that I'll continue to maintain 3.3 core ( not that it'll be a big issue - now 90% of the code is part of modules that can be easily replaced in case some bugs are found ). - Work on the main branch of tomcat3.x - there are people who seem to like it, people who see it as a threat. Well, if tomcat4.0 is better - you have nothing to worry about. If it can attract developers - you have nothing to worry about. If it can reuse code and features from 3.x in the same way tomcat 3.3 can ( and will ) reuse code and features from 4.0 - you shouldn't worry. - It seems a lot of people are concerned that because of 3.3, 4.0 is not getting enough developers ( besides those paid to do that). I must say, it's a valid concern. Getting people to contribute is a hard job, and you'll not get too far with arrogance and brute force. Sometimes it's important to show respect to developers and their contributions. But what I don't understand is your approach on resolving that. You may succeed in stopping tomcat3.3 and forcing it out of apache, but I don't think that would guarantee that people who worked on 3.3 will just move to 4.0 like little lemmings. - Probably the thing I dislike the most on this project - the decisions are made by political means, by few people who have bigger voices or are better at "lobbying". Is this going to attract developers ? I still think that code matters and good code can't be destroyed by politics. - In any case, I'll try as much as I can to finish what I started.When it's ready I'll use my right to propose it as 3.3. After that I'll try to have as little as possible to do with apache. - Many thanks to those of you who sent me private mail. It helps me a lot. Many thanks to those who sent mails publicly. - And again, if you are interested in creating a high quality servlet container, based on the work of many developers, well integrated with Apache, IIS, Netscape, AOLServer, with modular support for Servlet 2.2 and any future version of the spec - you should get involved and be assured that your code will be respected. Even if it is not perfect, it lacks documentation, or have bugs - I think we proved more than enough that your ideas matters, and the code can be cleaned, documented, fixed and made part of the evolution. Take a look at Tomcat3.0 - it is really bad code, great design ( no documentation ). Take a look at Tomcat3.3 - it's the same design + ideas from many other people, faster, cleaner, with some documentation. In the process we had 2 releases that can be used in production sites. Yes, it wasn't easy - it's easier to throw away everything and start with your own ideas. But it's other's people ideas that matter, and
RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
Look at the bugs in BugRat. The ones coming in for 4.0 are getting linked, documented and closed faster than the ones coming in for 3.x. The bugs for 4.0 are fewer than the ones coming in for 3.x. Shit, I think we've even got some 3.0's in there that haven't been dealt with! I'm sorry to say that the last time (before 3.2.1 release) I tried to use BugRats to get the list of open bugs related to mod_jk/ajp13, I received SQL error ! So I've commited the patch and don't closed the bug in BugRats (ajp13 + multiples cookies). As far as those of you committing to the 3.x branch today, think about this: Your efforts are sorely needed in the 4.0 tree, right here, right now, today. I have read the code in the 3.x tree. It's shaping up nicely, true, but after reading 3.1 for about 2 days, I got so depressed about the project I thought I was going to blow my head off. To find even where the request comes in I found I had to grep for a "ServerSocket" and drill from there! When I look at 4.0, I can actually READ that code and understand it. The code in 3.3 tree is much more cleaner than in 3.1. Another point is that many others I saw the TC 4.0 really as a Sun Products since all of the core commiters are paid by Sun and spent their many of their WORK TIME on this project. Many of TC 3.3 commiters have a work outside Sun and Tomcat. They use TC 3.2 and apply patches to 3.2 (and 3.3 when possible) since they have problems and want them corrected. We're familiar with TC 3.2 architecture and even the new one in TC 3.3. TC 4.0 is much more recent. I know TC 4.0 == catalina, but many were just too busy to fix 3.1/3.2 bugs (in their production environnement) to have the time to switch to catalina/4.0 design. Also Sun have put many talentuous developpers on the TC 4.0 project (since Sun need TC 4.0), so do you need +/- developpers more (and part time only developpers). There's a lot more to writing code whose source was meant to be publically consumed that is not evident in the writing of the 3.x tree. In short, 4.0 is the right code for the right project at the right time. You're right, TC 4.0 may be just too perfect and industrial (in devel process). Bugs are fixed quickly, BugRats reports are closed, documentation fly. TC 4.0 appears to be more a Sun Project (core developpers are all Sun) than an Apache Project. TC 3.3 is now the only tomcat opensource project in spirit since all the developpers (non Sun) could spend the same (few) time on the project. Hey Sam (Rubys) what's the IBM position on this project ? Did there is a kind of Yalta on ApacheGroup and who do what : IBM == xml.apache.org and SUN == jakarta.apache.org That's my point of view !
RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
TC 4.0 appears to be more a Sun Project (core developpers are all Sun) than an Apache Project. It is run under Apache rules and I haven`t seen anywhere that the votes of the 3.X committers count less than the 4.0 committers, so it`s still democratic. TC 3.3 is now the only tomcat opensource project in spirit since all the developpers (non Sun) could spend the same (few) time on the project. There is no reason to flame the Tomcat 4.0 developers like that. I`m sure that they`re open for commits from developers outside Sun (In fact I am sure, because most of the people from Sun working here has a rep for being proopen source), because it would make their life much easier. And if there is a problem, then the Apache Project as a whole is sure to react (not to mention the very bad PR it would be for Sun in these pro open source days, when they`re even making Star Office into Open Office). Hey Sam (Rubys) what's the IBM position on this project ? Did there is a kind of Yalta on ApacheGroup and who do what : IBM == xml.apache.org and SUN == jakarta.apache.org First of all xml.apache.org is in no way IBM only (not even Xerces or Xalan are IBM only), and they are more than happy to let people into the codebase and development process. I was there, when the Spinnaker/Xerces 2 thing went down, and It was NOT a coup attempt by Sun only a miscalculation and wrong phrased letter by James Duncan Davidson, but it changed things, Xerces-J 2 got started and the IBM guys became more open (even if only a little). And then there is the Batik project or the Cocoon effort (which is by far more promising than most open source projects which is too often only reimplementations of commercial stuff) My opinion is that most people who have time, and has a pain in the butt about Sun dominating the Tomcat 4.0 effort should get off it and go help and make it more of a community effort, if nothing else that will show that Sun isn`t in control but instead the community is. In the end all they have to remember is that all internal (on-site) discussion should be taken up with the community and from what I have seen that is a problem at some point or another on every open source project (of course that is also a problem in every software development situation, communication between all engineers is key) Mikael Helbo Kjær Software Developer @ DIA a/s
RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
GOMEZ Henri wrote: Hey Sam (Rubys) what's the IBM position on this project ? I've been trying to stay out of this particular discussion. Personally, I agree with James Cook that Jon is doing an excellent job of alienating people. Once upon a time, Craig was the lone heretic. The fact that he was outnumbered at the time was not relevant then, nor is the fact that Costin appears to be outnumbered now relevant. The 3.x series have certainly received a lot more performance focus up to this point. Reservations have been expressed as to whether the cleaner architecture would ever match the performance of 3.x performance. From watching the commit logs for 4.0, it looks like the focus is still on completeness and correctness at this point. I expect this to change as the code moves towards release and possibly (probably?) into the first couple of dot releases. I would very much prefer this discussion to be based on technical merits of the various baselines. Did there is a kind of Yalta on ApacheGroup and who do what : IBM == xml.apache.org and SUN == jakarta.apache.org That's my point of view ! That is not my point of view. Most of us are not independently wealthy, so we work for a living. A few of us are lucky enough to be paid to work on open source. In my case, I am further blessed in that I have a significant input into which projects I wish to pursue. Because of this, I've have made a number of minor contributions to several XML projects. However it is worth noting that I have made more significant contributions to Jakarta projects, in particular during the first half of this year. Costin once was paid to work on Jakarta, now his "day job" has resulted in improvements to xml-xalan. Furthermore, it is clear that Craig would work on Catalina even if Sun didn't pay him to do so. Meanwhile, IBM does ship a number of Jakarta projects as a part of WebSphere. The lines are not crisp, and are constantly shifting. Both IBM and Sun believe strongly in XML, Java, and Apache. - Sam Ruby
RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
GOMEZ Henri wrote: I remember the hard discution about spinaker on xerces mailing-list and IBM became more open after Sun position. But in the Tomcat case we have Sun on one side and individuals on the others. Not really the same condition. Hello Sam ?-) Tomcat 3.0 was clearly a Sun project. Most of the design discussions were held in conference rooms in Sun. The release was made with virtually no prior discussion on the mailing list (remember sideswiped?). Fairly or unfairly, a number of Sun people felt excluded from participating in Xerces. None of this is the case for any current release of Tomcat. In particular, I personally do not feel like I am being denied an opportunity to contribute to Tomcat 3.2.2, 3.3, or 4.0. Yes, many of the people working on Catalina are employed by Sun. Arguably, in many cases (including Craig), they are employed by Sun because they work on Catalina, not the other way around. - Sam Ruby
3.x submitters [was RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x]
Craig, I'm willing to volunteer my time and effort to help out with maintenance of 3.x. We are embedding Tomcat 3.2.x into our product so I have a vested interest in making sure that the 3.2.x product is stable and robust. I've submitted a few patches in the last month or so (and gotten a couple accepted and committed). I've also been actively trying to help people on TOMCAT-USER with problems related to IIS integration and the isapi_redirector as these are the areas that I've focused on most. There are currently a few items left in 3.2.x that I'd like to address: 1) The long delay required to initialize SecureRandom causes the first access to a web app to take a significant amount of time. I posted a patch to address this but I admit that it touches a few more classes then I would have liked. If anyone has other ideas or comments I'd like to hear them. 2) The EmbededTomcat class doesn't work at all. I used it as an example to develop my own and I'd like to merge those changes back into the Tomcat source. 3) The isapi_redirect.dll is very brittle. Very small and (based on the questions posted to TOMCAT-USER) very common configuration mistakes cause failures that are difficult to diagnose. At some point I want to look into Tomcat 4.x, but for the near future my focus must be on the 3.2.x product. If I can help maintain this release to free up other developer's time for 4.x please let me know. -Original Message- From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 8:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x snip Of course, these problems are fixable if we had more committers ... especially ones interested in applying bug fixes to the current production release to keep it stable and appropriate for production deployments. (NOTE: Anyone who receives committer status gets commit access on all branches of all the project's CVS repositories.) snip
RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, GOMEZ Henri wrote: Look at the bugs in BugRat. The ones coming in for 4.0 are getting linked, documented and closed faster than the ones coming in for 3.x. The bugs for 4.0 are fewer than the ones coming in for 3.x. Shit, I think we've even got some 3.0's in there that haven't been dealt with! I'm sorry to say that the last time (before 3.2.1 release) I tried to use BugRats to get the list of open bugs related to mod_jk/ajp13, I received SQL error ! I won't defend BugRat. It was written for JServ 1.0 and has a lot of problems, not the least of which is it's SQL. But it's better than nothing. So I've commited the patch and don't closed the bug in BugRats (ajp13 + multiples cookies). I'll close it for you then. Can you give me the ID number in question? As far as those of you committing to the 3.x branch today, think about this: Your efforts are sorely needed in the 4.0 tree, right here, right now, today. I have read the code in the 3.x tree. It's shaping up nicely, true, but after reading 3.1 for about 2 days, I got so depressed about the project I thought I was going to blow my head off. To find even where the request comes in I found I had to grep for a "ServerSocket" and drill from there! When I look at 4.0, I can actually READ that code and understand it. The code in 3.3 tree is much more cleaner than in 3.1. Another point is that many others I saw the TC 4.0 really as a Sun Products since all of the core commiters are paid by Sun and spent their many of their WORK TIME on this project. I agreed with the first part of that paragraph; 3.3 is better than 3.1, but the next part of the paragraph, Costin's, et al, heroic efforts aside, is simply not true. Quoting Sam Ruby: "Tomcat 3.0 was clearly a Sun project. Most of the design discussions were held in conference rooms in Sun. The release was made with virtually no prior discussion on the mailing list (remember sideswiped?)." And going back to the original reason I posted to this thread, Quoting Jon Stevens: "One thing that you are all not remembering or even realize is that Catalina was originally going to be JServ 2.0. If Sun had never given us the source code to Tomcat, then you would have been using Catalina anyway." -- Nicolaus Bauman
Re: [VOTE] Committer Status for Marc Saegesser (was: Re: 3.x submitters [was RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x])
"Craig R. McClanahan" wrote: Marc Saegesser wrote: Craig, I'm willing to volunteer my time and effort to help out with maintenance of 3.x. We are embedding Tomcat 3.2.x into our product so I have a vested interest in making sure that the 3.2.x product is stable and robust. As Marc points out, he has submitted patches, and has good ideas for what needs to be taken care of on 3.2.x. I hereby propose him as a Tomcat committer. Votes? +1 Hans -- Hans Bergsten [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gefion Software http://www.gefionsoftware.com Author of JavaServer Pages (O'Reilly), http://TheJSPBook.com
RE: [VOTE] Committer Status for Marc Saegesser (was: Re: 3.x submitters [was RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x])
+1 -Original Message- From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 12:37 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [VOTE] Committer Status for Marc Saegesser (was: Re: 3.x submitters [was RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x]) Marc Saegesser wrote: Craig, I'm willing to volunteer my time and effort to help out with maintenance of 3.x. We are embedding Tomcat 3.2.x into our product so I have a vested interest in making sure that the 3.2.x product is stable and robust. As Marc points out, he has submitted patches, and has good ideas for what needs to be taken care of on 3.2.x. I hereby propose him as a Tomcat committer. Votes? Craig
Re: [VOTE] Committer Status for Marc Saegesser (was: Re: 3.x submitters[was RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x])
+1 Costin On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Craig R. McClanahan wrote: Marc Saegesser wrote: Craig, I'm willing to volunteer my time and effort to help out with maintenance of 3.x. We are embedding Tomcat 3.2.x into our product so I have a vested interest in making sure that the 3.2.x product is stable and robust. As Marc points out, he has submitted patches, and has good ideas for what needs to be taken care of on 3.2.x. I hereby propose him as a Tomcat committer. Votes? Craig
RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
-Original Message- From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 2:01 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x I'm not suggesting that we not release it. Thanks, I misunderstood. If it were released as 3.2.x+1, I would not be unhappy. I simply would prefer 3.3 because it is a different branch in the CVS tree. It contains differences at least equal to the differences between 3.1 and 3.2. Larry
RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
Hi Craig, Reading you comment below, I do agree with you that it seems there are not enough committers. I would like to offer myself as a committer (for 3.x). I have sent 2 patches till now. Theses patches deals with redundancy/load-balancing and keeping sessions after tomcat restart. Right now I'm working on a patch to send session between tomcat instances (basically give you redundancy, so in case tomcat will go down, the session will be stored in the other tomcat. Mod_jk will know to redirect requests to either tomcat instances). I'm going to have alpha version soon. I would like to help tomcat (3.0 again) to be more 'enterprise/production' league. Shai Fultheim Chief Technology Officer BRM Seed E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile: 972-53-866-459 Office: 972-2-5891-459 -Original Message- From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, December 19, 2000 04:01 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x Of course, these problems are fixable if we had more committers ... especially ones interested in applying bug fixes to the current production release to keep it stable and appropriate for production deployments. (NOTE: Anyone who receives committer status gets commit access on all branches of all the project's CVS repositories.)
RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
Why not Tomcat 3.2.x+1? This is the problem finally? a question of version numbers? Whooa this is entertainment, this is fun (from and old Cabaret Voltaire Song) Saludos , Ignacio J. Ortega
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
Hi Jon, First, I want to thank you for the advices and your mail - even if I don't like what you say I do believe that your mail have some good things for me. It really scares me that you are the only person (as far as I can tell) that is seriously interested in ? maintaining and developing Tomcat 3.x into the future. Well, at least it's good that there's at least one person maintaining and developing it - it's a pretty good product, it'll be scarry if everyone would abandon it to do other things. I have no plans on "developing tomcat3.x into the future" - all I want is finish what I started and I couldn't do in 3.2 timeframe - in terms of performance, refactoring, modularity, security. I don't see any need to go beyond 3.3 - and I said many times I'll stop doing any major changes in the core after 3.3 is done. I'll just fix bugs and develop modules - most of them in my private, non-apache space ( I'm talking about the servlet 2.3 implementation ). If you look at the code ( and any developer should do that before arguing one thing or another ), 3.3 is much cleaner and faster than 3.2 and it's finishing up what was started. I would like to thank you for making me "the only person" maintaining tomcat3.x, but I can't take the credit for that - all I'm doing is improving great code developed by other smart people, and even more importantly finishing up what they've started. As for the future - in many open source projects good code does have a future - I hope the same will happen with tomcat. It is not good to have the entire rest of the core developers work on Tomcat 4.x and having you sit here and say that you are going to work towards back porting everything that the Tomcat 4.x people come up with on your own. Well, I don't see anything wrong in reusing good ideas from tomcat4.x in 3.x - it's in fact the first time I hear anyone saying it's bad. It was one of the goals of tomcat3.x to be modular and allow people to add extensions without affecting the core - and almost all of 4.x can be back ported as tomcat3.x modules. If someone is doing that - people who use tomcat 3 will benefit, and that's good. Talk about a complete duplication of effort by only a single individual. That's a great compliment for the design of tomcat3 ( unfortunately I can't take too much credit for this either ) - if only a single individual can do that it proves ( again ) that tomcat 3 is a great servlet container and gives me reason to keep working. I can't even understand someone wanting to base their work on Tomcat 3.x when all of the core developer support (ie: more than just one person) is going towards Tomcat 4.x. Better design :-) ? Continuity ? I *personally* think that you should either drop your Tomcat 3.x development and work towards making Tomcat 4.0 have all the features and benefits that you want to see in Tomcat 3.x (and thus show that we I think tomcat 3.x has most of the features that I wanted - I would be happy to see 4.0 using the same patterns and design that allow high performance, but I don't have the time or wish to do it again. are all working together instead of this constant fork within the overall Tomcat project) or It's funny you're telling this as if I'm doing something wrong or forking - I strongly agree that forking is bad, and so far I did all I could to avoid forks ( i.e. I stoped developing the Servlet2.3 module as part of tomcat3.3, etc). simply fork what you are doing into another project that is hosted somewhere else. It's the second time an Apache member is asking me to go somewhere else. Believe me, right now it's my biggest wish - I've had more than enough ! In fact, I'm pretty strongly -1 on Tomcat 3.3. If anything it would need to be suggested as Tomcat 5.0 because as far as I can tell, we have already come to the conclusion that Catalina will be Tomcat 4.0. When 3.3 will be ready you are free to vote whatever you want - I just hope your vote will be based on the quality of the code and not political interests. What I'm most concerned with here is the overall Tomcat project goals and seeing you duplicating work and effort is really not making me happy. Reuse != duplication You should be into lobbying people to work with you...not as a "damn you all, I'm going to do what I want regardless of what you say" type of attitude. I know some people prefer the "do what we tell you to do or go away " or "we know what is better " attitude. I don't want to defend myself , and I'll take it as a compliment - I think it's great to be able to think for yourself and be able to work when there's an awful lot of pressure to go away. As for lobbying - thanks for the advice, I think I did quite a bit of lobby in the last year and I a tiny bit of contribution in getting people get involved in tomcat. This is because you will never get any other core developer support behind you for Tomcat 5.0 regardless of how good
RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
I definitely agree with Henry Costin... Saludos , Ignacio J. Ortega
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
Not everybody is in a position to throw away their investment in the 3.x series just yet. While its fun to try the latest and greatest, not everybody can do that. Craig, is java.sun.com running on Tomcat 4.0? Jon, is www.apache.org running Apache 2.0 yet? When do you think they will be ready to run those packages? While this may be a "reference implementation," it is still being used in production environments. Production environments have very different requirements than development environments. Does Tomcat 3.x have bugs? Absolutely. But we've found those bugs in our QA environment, identified them, and worked around them as needed. Tomcat 4.0 will have a whole new set of bugs that we will need to spend time working around. We're still running our sites on 3.1, because we haven't had time to re-do the verification work with 3.2 yet. I'm just saying that while Tomcat 4.0 may have the most perfect design, it is un-proven in production environments. Tomcat 3.x has been proven for our application. We need to continue the 3.x tree at least until 4.0 is proven as ready. That takes time. 3.x has been brewing for a very long time. There have been lots of changes, but more has stayed the same than has changed. Tomcat 4.0 is almost entirely new code. We need something we can count on for production. Tomcat 4.0 isn't there yet. I also think that its appalling that people should tell Costin to go away. The Apache project should be very very thankful that they have somebody around to maintain the code that others have abandoned. Where would we be if the latest stable version of Apache was 1.3.0, and all the other developers had run off to work on 2.0? If that had happened, the Apache project would have been dismissed by everybody as a toy, and Apache wouldn't be in the position it is in today. Paul Frieden PS: www.apache.org runs Apache 1.3.15-dev, and java.sun.com runs Apache 1.3.3. GOMEZ Henri wrote: It really scares me that you are the only person (as far as I can tell) that is seriously interested in maintaining and developing Tomcat 3.x into the future. It is not good to have the entire rest of the core developers work on Tomcat 4.x and having you sit here and say that you are going to work towards back porting everything that the Tomcat 4.x people come up with on your own. Talk about a complete duplication of effort by only a single individual. * Costin is not alone on the TC 3.3 tree. You could see there is contributions 3.3 from Larry, Nacho and Dan. I can't even understand someone wanting to base their work on Tomcat 3.x when all of the core developer support (ie: more than just one person) is going towards Tomcat 4.x. * Hey, don't forget that tomcat 3.x is now the only real running distribution. Me and others see TC 4.0 as an experimental product, a way to test and validate the servlet 2.3 and JSP 1.2 API. I *personally* think that you should either drop your Tomcat 3.x development and work towards making Tomcat 4.0 have all the features and benefits that you want to see in Tomcat 3.x (and thus show that we are all working together instead of this constant fork within the overall Tomcat project) or simply fork what you are doing into another project that is hosted somewhere else. * The good point with TC 4.0 are all the good things inside (JMX, JAXP 1.0/1.1) The bad point on TC 4.0 are all these good things (JMX, JAXP 1.0/1.1). You have seens the thread on '[PROPOSAL] building is easy'. We need too many things now to build TC 4.0. Also even if TC 4.0 is an OpenSource projects, too many of the required packages are not 'Open Sourced' or not easily exportable. Also many peoples want to have a fast servlet engine with a low memory profile. I saw TC 4.0 to be much hungry. In fact, I'm pretty strongly -1 on Tomcat 3.3. If anything it would need to be suggested as Tomcat 5.0 because as far as I can tell, we have already come to the conclusion that Catalina will be Tomcat 4.0. * Why not consider TC 3.3 as a light servlet engine ? It make sense since many sites will not need all the stuff inside TC 4.0. I hope that Apache Group will not forget that many of the web sites which run it's httpd servlet are personal computers and not clusters of Ghz CPUs and Gb of RAM. Don't take what I said as me kicking you out or killing things or anything even remotely personal. What I'm most concerned with here is the overall Tomcat project goals and seeing you duplicating work and effort is really not making me happy. Sure, you could say that the goals might be flawed in your opinion, which is perfectly valid, but the fact of the matter is that the rest of the people on the project are working towards making Tomcat 4.0 the future. * I don't saw that as a duplicate effort. TC 3.3 is the continuation of 3.x tree. TC 4.0 is much more ambitiuous and nice for the next future but the
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
* The good point with TC 4.0 are all the good things inside (JMX, JAXP 1.0/1.1) The bad point on TC 4.0 are all these good things (JMX, JAXP 1.0/1.1). You have seens the thread on '[PROPOSAL] building is easy'. We need too many things now to build TC 4.0. You need JAXP, JSSE and JMX. - The JMX components are NOT used at runtime except if you run TC4 through JMX. - JAXP, well, most Jakarta projects require it already. - JSSE is required just to compile the secure SSLServerSocketFactory (whaich was taken from the 3.2 tree) and that's it. I don't see any fancy features here, or anything too unusual, except that some of these things (like JSSE) should have conditional switches. Also even if TC 4.0 is an OpenSource projects, too many of the required packages are not 'Open Sourced' or not easily exportable. Also many peoples want to have a fast servlet engine with a low memory profile. I saw TC 4.0 to be much hungry. From my experience, it looks we're talking 20% more here (or 2-3M), which doesn't seem that much to me. Apparently, we're creating more objects than TC3 in the core. * Why not consider TC 3.3 as a light servlet engine ? It make sense since many sites will not need all the stuff inside TC 4.0. I fail to see to which part of TC4 it does apply. * I don't saw that as a duplicate effort. TC 3.3 is the continuation of 3.x tree. TC 4.0 is much more ambitiuous and nice for the next future but the present now is Apache JServ, Tomcat 3.1 and some Tomcat 3.2. We need to have a continuation effort on existing software for present hardware. I don't agree. TC3.3 is a rewrite of TC3.2, with all of the TC4 "fancy features" (and some more). AFAIK, there is no plan to get rid of / stop maitaining TC 3.2, and actually it's Craig who handles the 3.2 releases and maintenance releases (like 3.2.1), not Costin. One thing that Craig did with 4.0 that was the right thing to do was to lobby the core developers into working on his vision of the future, where your "attitude" has been to simply continue working on your vision no matter what everyone else is doing. * That's may be the core of the problem. Craig has been just to good in lobbying. There is not too much core developpers now in TC 3.3. Another problem is that the majority of TC 4.0 developpers are Sun employees. Many could see TC 4.0 as a Sun projects with externals contributions and bugs reports. Please remember the discussions on Xerces list against IBMers and Suners about Spinaker and Xerces 2.0 As far as I know, nearly of the core TC devs are / were Sun people anyway, so actually it's Sun vs Sun. The danger now is that Apache Group seems to loose its heart. As far as I'm concerned, TC3.x is THE Sun project. It was developed internally at Sun, and then released as OSS to the Apache group. Up until 3.1, it was developed by Sun people. TC4 has been designed and developed by Craig, who was one of the original of JServ. I started contributing to TC4 earlier this year, and I've recently joined Sun (1 month ago), but that's more because of personal problems with my previous employer (Exoffice / Intalio) than anything else. Majors software companies are flying and provide their software under the Apache Umbrella. Must we wait now for a Microsoft arrival with a .NET or C# contribution to Apache Group ? Did the operating system of Apache systems is still FreeBSD ? Please wake-up all and see that Costin may be one of the latest BSDers out of there. An excellent developper but a poor politic. All of us, have just too many politics in real life, so let it outside Apache wall. Let Costin and others continue their work on TC 3.3, 3.4, 3.5. Just saw TC 3.3 and successor as a lightweight alternative to the more ambitious TC 4.0. Jakarta must be able to answer to user with low cost system. And please don't forget that Apache has made it's reputation on a fast http server running nicely on a 386 with 12m RAM. Neither TC3 nor TC4 would run fine on that, I'm afraid. Remy
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
on 12/18/2000 10:01 AM, "Greg Bailey" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a use of Tomcat 3.1 on several production machines, may I say "thanks" also to Costin and everyone else who supports 3.1 (and 3.1.1, 3.2, 3.2.1, etc.) We are in no position to jump to 4.0 just because its trendy and has more "development activity"... Thanks again, -Greg Bailey I wish people would pay more attention to what the overall issues are instead of focusing on entirely the wrong things. That isn't what I was saying at all. The issue is the idea of a 3.3 and I'm not saying to "jump" to 4.0. Please look at all the information available to you about what is happening before commenting again. thanks, -jon
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
I don't agree. TC3.3 is a rewrite of TC3.2, with all of the TC4 "fancy features" (and some more). 3.3 is not a "rewrite" of 3.2 - some code was moved for better organization and modularity, and we finished a number of optimizations that were started during 3.2 development. Yes, a lot of code was rewriten ( cookies is a good example ) - but that's just a normal evolution of 3.2 - and the same happened after 3.1. Regarding the "fancy features" - 3.3 allows people to add any feature as a module, but the "core" is much simpler and feature-free than 3.2 ( or 4.0 ). In fact one of the goals of 3.3 refactoring was to make sure that all the "features" are modules ( examples: error handling, class loader hierarchy, jsp integration, servlet facade, etc ) AFAIK, there is no plan to get rid of / stop maitaining TC 3.2, and actually it's Craig who handles the 3.2 releases and maintenance releases (like 3.2.1), not Costin. Well, I must agree that this is a nice "political" spin. It seems suddenly the evolution of 3.2 to 3.3 ( identical with the evolution of 3.1 to 3.2 BTW) turns to be a "rewrite" or "fork" or "revolution". And 3.2.1 becomes the "evolution path" of 3.2. It also seems that improvements on 3.3 are "bad" because they take away resources from 4.0, and features that are ok to 4.0 are "featurism" if implemented as tomcat3.3 modules. I'm very happy to see Craig doing maintenance releases of 3.2 until 3.3 is ready ( and I hope that will happen in few months ). Please don't tell me that Craig is going to do major performance improvments in 3.2.2, or rewrite the cookie handling ( to corectly implement the specs), etc - so far it seems that he's ( rightly ) integrating bug fixes - that's what should happen on any maintainance release. ( and of course, he keeps forgeting the rules about release branches - that a patch in the release branch should be merged into the development branch ) It's a huge difference between maintaining a release and continuing ( and finishing ) development. Tomcat 3.2 is much better than 3.1 because of active development, and 3.3 will be better than 3.2.x because of the same reason - things that can't be done in 3.2.x ( and it doesn't seem to happen anyway ) As I said earlier, the reason we need 3.3 is that 3.2 has unfinished areas - the core refactoring started after 3.1 is the most important, performance is another ( and that's easy to check by comparing 3.3 with 3.2 as performance or by reading the core package ). Because of the available resources we choosed not to do maintainance releases of 3.1 unless a major bug/security issue is found, but try to have a major release (3.2) in a reasonable time. I think the same should happen with 3.3, and I'm working as hard as possible ( given the little free time I have ) to finish 3.3 development in a short time ( again - few months ). BTW, if I remember corectly the rules for tomcat developlment, after a feature freeze leading to a release, "development continues into the main branch, with only bug fixes going into the release branch". That's what I'm doing - continuing the development of tomcat3 into the main branch. The bug fixes that go into the release branch are great, but please stop spining that into something else. Costin __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
I wish people would pay more attention to what the overall issues are instead of focusing on entirely the wrong things. +1 on this The issue is the idea of a 3.3 and I'm not saying to "jump" to 4.0. I don't see how did you created a "3.3" issue - tomcat3.x development continues as it did before, and I don't remember 3.2 beeing an "issue" or anyone saying that 3.2 shouldn't have been developed. ( well, I remember something about that - but it seems that those who believed that were very wrong ) In fact, 3.3 doesn't even exist - when the development on the main branch of tomcat 3 will reach a stable state we can discuss about 3.3 , and you can argue that it's better or worse than 3.2 and we should ( or should not ) release it. Until that happens, TC3.3 refers to the version that is developmed out of tomcat 3 main branch - and you are welcomed to comment on any development that takes place and send your feedback about any commit. Those are the only real issues so far - if you are interested in 3.x future. Please look at all the information available to you about what is happening before commenting again. +1 again, jon Costin __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Shopping - Thousands of Stores. Millions of Products. http://shopping.yahoo.com/
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
on 12/18/2000 11:27 AM, "Costin Manolache" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In fact, 3.3 doesn't even exist - when the development on the main branch of tomcat 3 will reach a stable state we can discuss about 3.3 , and you can argue that it's better or worse than 3.2 and we should ( or should not ) release it. Until that happens, TC3.3 refers to the version that is developmed out of tomcat 3 main branch - and you are welcomed to comment on any development that takes place and send your feedback about any commit. Those are the only real issues so far - if you are interested in 3.x future. Right, but you are discussing 3.3 as being the future when you don't even know that is going to exist. That is wrong. Should I quote you? Costin said: Since I believe in a different future and direction, I'll spend the time to make mod_jk and tomcat3.2 ( and the future 3.3 ) work with Apache2.0. I'm +1 on 3.2.x continuing for however long we need it to in bug fix/minor enhancement mode. This should clear up Greg's posting confusion. As I said earlier, I would be strongly -1 on a 3.3. I'm +1 on Catalina becoming 4.0 and -1 on 3.x HEAD becoming 4.0. I'm +1 on considering what you are working on in the 3.x HEAD as becoming 4.5 or 5.0. In other words, I really want to see Catalina have a chance in the real world as a 4.0 release. If it does good, then I will vote strongly to follow that path for a while. If it does really badly, then I will evaluate 3.x HEAD again and consider that for a future direction. thanks, -jon -- Honk if you love peace and quiet.
RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
-Original Message- From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] on 12/18/2000 10:01 AM, "Greg Bailey" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As a use of Tomcat 3.1 on several production machines, may I say "thanks" also to Costin and everyone else who supports 3.1 (and 3.1.1, 3.2, 3.2.1, etc.) We are in no position to jump to 4.0 just because its trendy and has more "development activity"... Thanks again, -Greg Bailey I wish people would pay more attention to what the overall issues are instead of focusing on entirely the wrong things. That isn't what I was saying at all. The issue is the idea of a 3.3 and I'm not saying to "jump" to 4.0. Please look at all the information available to you about what is happening before commenting again. It really is part of the same issue. Because Greg is not willing to jump to 4.0, the idea of continuing development on the 3.x branch (work towards 3.3) is welcome and reassuring. There will likely be some issues with porting applications to 4.0 which can't be easily resolved. I see no problems with Costin (and others) continuing work on the 3.3 release, especially considering his recent comments about doing development on Tomcat with the Apache group: Costin said (quoting Jon): simply fork what you are doing into another project that is hosted somewhere else. It's the second time an Apache member is asking me to go somewhere else. Believe me, right now it's my biggest wish - I've had more than enough ! The way I see it, having Costin stopping work on the 3.x tree won't free up any substantial amount of resources for the 4.x tree. Costin doesn't seem to be planning on any future development on Tomcat after 3.3 is done! Either way, what does it matter if Costin is doing development work on the 3.x tree under Apache or under his own project? Frankly, I am disappointed in the development process of Tomcat. I posted a simple documentation patch (See bug report 528) two weeks ago for the FAQ included with the Tomcat 3.x and posted a couple messages about it. I haven't heard a thing about it and saw the release of 3.2.1 come and go without the documentation fix. -Dave
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
David Rees wrote: Frankly, I am disappointed in the development process of Tomcat. I posted a simple documentation patch (See bug report 528) two weeks ago for the FAQ included with the Tomcat 3.x and posted a couple messages about it. I haven't heard a thing about it and saw the release of 3.2.1 come and go without the documentation fix. The reason this occurred is that a significant security bug was found, warranting an *immediate* 3.2.1 release that bypassed the usual testing cycle that a beta should go through. This wasn't the only thing that didn't make it -- but security issues are serious and need to be dealt with. Normal processing of bug fixes and patches on the "tomcat_32" tree is now feasible for a 3.2.2 release. Hint: I am not the only committer on this project -- others are welcome to help integrate changes too. -Dave Craig
RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
Jon ha escrito: Please look at all the information available to you about what is happening before commenting again. To give people a chance to get a personal opinion let's go to the REAL start of this thread, a interesting exercise ( at least for me ) http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=tomcat-devm=86951938807358w=2 Have good trip into the past!!! ( almost exactly 1 year ago ) a quote from James D Davidson: " Given that this is a voluteer org, I think that we need to allow the revolutionaries to work on their stuff and let the evolutionaries work on their things and come up with a balance to let everyone work in the way in which they are comfortable. After all, it's stoopid to lock people out of doing what they want to since they are giving of their time and talent for free. " How can we reach the "balance" between TC3.3 TC4.0? Saludos , Ignacio J. Ortega
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
on 12/18/2000 11:47 AM, "David Rees" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It really is part of the same issue. Because Greg is not willing to jump to 4.0, the idea of continuing development on the 3.x branch (work towards 3.3) is welcome and reassuring. There will likely be some issues with porting applications to 4.0 which can't be easily resolved. There are no issues with porting to 4.0. I just took an app developed on 3.x and moved it to 4.0 without any problems. I see no problems with Costin (and others) continuing work on the 3.3 release, especially considering his recent comments about doing development on Tomcat with the Apache group: Costin said (quoting Jon): simply fork what you are doing into another project that is hosted somewhere else. It's the second time an Apache member is asking me to go somewhere else. Believe me, right now it's my biggest wish - I've had more than enough ! The way I see it, having Costin stopping work on the 3.x tree won't free up any substantial amount of resources for the 4.x tree. Costin doesn't seem to be planning on any future development on Tomcat after 3.3 is done! Ok, so great...3.3 is done and Costin disappears. What happens then? I wait around for someone else to pick up the effort while everyone else is working on and using 4.0? Either way, what does it matter if Costin is doing development work on the 3.x tree under Apache or under his own project? Because of the split of resources. Frankly, I am disappointed in the development process of Tomcat. I posted a simple documentation patch (See bug report 528) two weeks ago for the FAQ included with the Tomcat 3.x and posted a couple messages about it. I haven't heard a thing about it and saw the release of 3.2.1 come and go without the documentation fix. HELLO! DUHH! I think it is so funny that you mention this. Lets see, I see Craig and Remy constantly adding patches to Tomcat 4.0 as soon as they come in, but because we have this split of effort working on two tree's, your patches probably have gotten overlooked because people were way to busy working on the fact that we have a forked development tree. My point is that it is way to confusing for a volunteer organization to support this split tree like this and it needs to stop! Lastly, to add one more bit to the fire...Sun's position appears to follow Craig's at this point since he is the lead engineer on the J2EE Servlet Engine. What would you rather go with? The Engine that is part of J2EE or the engine that is a fork and worked on after work hours by essentially one guy? thanks, -jon -- Honk if you love peace and quiet.
RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
Hi Craig, -Original Message- From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Frankly, I am disappointed in the development process of Tomcat. I posted a simple documentation patch (See bug report 528) two weeks ago for the FAQ included with the Tomcat 3.x and posted a couple messages about it. I haven't heard a thing about it and saw the release of 3.2.1 come and go without the documentation fix. The reason this occurred is that a significant security bug was found, warranting an *immediate* 3.2.1 release that bypassed the usual testing cycle that a beta should go through. This wasn't the only thing that didn't make it -- but security issues are serious and need to be dealt with. I understand why it didn't get through when I re-mentioned it right before the release, that is completely understandable. The problem as I see it is that the bug report was in BugRat for a week (in addition to a normal post to tomcat-dev) before Tomcat 3.2.1 was released; plenty of time IMHO for such a simple documentation patch to be committed. Normal processing of bug fixes and patches on the "tomcat_32" tree is now feasible for a 3.2.2 release. Hint: I am not the only committer on this project -- others are welcome to help integrate changes too. Right, I'm not about you specifically, Craig (I think you're doing good work on the 4.x tree and are usually very responsive on the tomcat-user/dev lists), but I really would have expected one of the committers to pick up the patch. I would just hate to see someone else pound their head against a wall for a few hours because of incorrect documentation. Anyway, slightly off-subject now. I'm curious to hear your reply to Jon's post. -Dave
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
Paul Frieden wrote: Not everybody is in a position to throw away their investment in the 3.x series just yet. Absolutely true. That's why I went back and did 3.2, because I totally understand this reasoning. Some people can't even get off 3.1 yet, because Costin changed so much in 3.2 :-). That's why I went back and did a 3.1.1 release for the security fixes there, along with a 3.2.1 fix for the current version. But that's not the real concern of this mail thread. The issue for TOMCAT-DEV is where should the Tomcat *developers* be spending the bulk of their time. While its fun to try the latest and greatest, not everybody can do that. Craig, is java.sun.com running on Tomcat 4.0? Not yet, although the static part of the java.sun.com site isn't really the target for a servlet container -- the various back-end application systems is where you will see it before the home page. Jon, is www.apache.org running Apache 2.0 yet? When do you think they will be ready to run those packages? Pretty soon. While this may be a "reference implementation," it is still being used in production environments. Production environments have very different requirements than development environments. Does Tomcat 3.x have bugs? Absolutely. But we've found those bugs in our QA environment, identified them, and worked around them as needed. Tomcat 4.0 will have a whole new set of bugs that we will need to spend time working around. We're still running our sites on 3.1, because we haven't had time to re-do the verification work with 3.2 yet. I'm just saying that while Tomcat 4.0 may have the most perfect design, it is un-proven in production environments. Tomcat 3.x has been proven for our application. Well, 3.1 has proven itself for you. You will find 3.2 has it's own flock of different bugs too. Same for "3.3" -- on the insides, each of these versions has had significant changes. We need to continue the 3.x tree at least until 4.0 is proven as ready. That takes time. 3.x has been brewing for a very long time. There have been lots of changes, but more has stayed the same than has changed. Tomcat 4.0 is almost entirely new code. We need something we can count on for production. Tomcat 4.0 isn't there yet. Anyone who's seen my posts over the last year knows that I recommend Tomcat 3.x (current released version, nowdays 3.2 series) for production use. Tomcat 4.0 is currently alpha code (although just about to start a beta cycle). The question at hand, though, relates to future significant enhancements (as opposed to just bug fixes, which I'm still willing to integrate in 3.2.x). You would find 3.2--3.3 to be just as in need of revalidation as 3.2--4.0, because it's not just a simple maintanenance fix to 3.2. Now, do we split the community's attention by devoting substantial development efforts to two tracks simultaneously, or do we focus most of the "big improvements" effort in one direction and do the required maintenance on the current production release? Because this is a volunteer organization, people can certainly choose to work on what they want -- but how are you going to feel if you spend a lot of time working on "3.3" but the TOMCAT-DEV community decides not to release it (given the proposed timing, it risks becoming irrelevant no matter how good or bad it might be)? Costin has stated several times that he prefers not to work on 4.0. That's his choice. For him, and the other folks that want to work on the "3.3" code base (I'm using quotes because there has been no formal discussion or vote on a plan to create it yet), they are free to do what they want with the code -- but if they want to release the finished work as "Tomcat", they've got to sell the TOMCAT-DEV community (i.e. the committers who have voting rights) on that plan. I also think that its appalling that people should tell Costin to go away. The Apache project should be very very thankful that they have somebody around to maintain the code that others have abandoned. Where would we be if the latest stable version of Apache was 1.3.0, and all the other developers had run off to work on 2.0? If that had happened, the Apache project would have been dismissed by everybody as a toy, and Apache wouldn't be in the position it is in today. Costin is to be thanked for all the efforts he has put in to get Tomcat from where it was at contribution time (October 99) into something that was usable. His efforts to improve performance along the way have proven to be quite successful as well. But, prospective "3.3" users should also be aware ... this time, if it ever did get released, I'm not going to be there to clean up Costin's bugs (as I had to do on both 3.1 and 3.2). I've got better things to do. By the way, Tomcat 4.0 will be the web container in the next release of the Java2 Enterprise Edition (J2EE) reference implementation. As such, it is receiving the benefit of extensive testing within
RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] There are no issues with porting to 4.0. I just took an app developed on 3.x and moved it to 4.0 without any problems. Maybe for your app it ported over, but for others (specifically those working with XML and parsers other than the one bundled with Tomcat 4.x) do have problems with it. Realistically I expect most applications to port over without any changes, but I expect a handful to experience some problem related to this. Ok, so great...3.3 is done and Costin disappears. What happens then? I wait around for someone else to pick up the effort while everyone else is working on and using 4.0? No, Costin specifically said he'd be continuing maintenance and bug fixes on the 3.x tree after his refactoring is done. (Sorry, don't have his quote handy) Frankly, I am disappointed in the development process of Tomcat. I posted a simple documentation patch (See bug report 528) two weeks ago for the FAQ included with the Tomcat 3.x and posted a couple messages about it. I haven't heard a thing about it and saw the release of 3.2.1 come and go without the documentation fix. HELLO! DUHH! I think it is so funny that you mention this. Lets see, I see Craig and Remy constantly adding patches to Tomcat 4.0 as soon as they come in, but because we have this split of effort working on two tree's, your patches probably have gotten overlooked because people were way to busy working on the fact that we have a forked development tree. My point is that it is way to confusing for a volunteer organization to support this split tree like this and it needs to stop! Alright, you got me on this one. :-) Although I might point out that there seems to be at least one full time paid employee on the project. :-) -Dave
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
on 12/18/2000 12:40 PM, "David Rees" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Although I might point out that there seems to be at least one full time paid employee on the project. :-) -Dave Costin is not paid to work on this project. -jon
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
on 12/18/2000 12:20 AM, "Costin Manolache" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't see any need to go beyond 3.3 - and I said many times I'll stop doing any major changes in the core after 3.3 is done. I'll just fix bugs and develop modules - most of them in my private, non-apache space ( I'm talking about the servlet 2.3 implementation ). Ok, so you are going to stop at 3.3 and then what? Abandon things? Hope that others pick things up? Move to Catalina? What are you going to do? As for the future - in many open source projects good code does have a future - I hope the same will happen with tomcat. Tomcat 3.x or 4.x? That is the confusion that needs to be cleared up. Well, I don't see anything wrong in reusing good ideas from tomcat4.x in 3.x - it's in fact the first time I hear anyone saying it's bad. The point being that you are duplicating effort. The code is already in the future version and now you are back porting it to the past. Why is that good? It was one of the goals of tomcat3.x to be modular and allow people to add extensions without affecting the core - and almost all of 4.x can be back ported as tomcat3.x modules. Why is that effort good if people will be moving to 4.x anyway? If someone is doing that - people who use tomcat 3 will benefit, and that's good. When the future is 4.x? That's a great compliment for the design of tomcat3 ( unfortunately I can't take too much credit for this either ) - if only a single individual can do that it proves ( again ) that tomcat 3 is a great servlet container and gives me reason to keep working. Sure, it is good. I'm not doubting that fact. The reality though is that we are moving away from Tomcat 3.x to 4.x. Better design :-) ? Continuity ? In your opinion. I think tomcat 3.x has most of the features that I wanted - I would be happy to see 4.0 using the same patterns and design that allow high performance, but I don't have the time or wish to do it again. That you wanted. What about what other people want? What about what is good for the overall project? Your thinking is very singular. It's funny you're telling this as if I'm doing something wrong or forking - I strongly agree that forking is bad, and so far I did all I could to avoid forks ( i.e. I stoped developing the Servlet2.3 module as part of tomcat3.3, etc). Forking isn't bad. I never said that! In fact, I strongly believe in the ability to fork. Hell, look at the mess that I went through with Velocity! simply fork what you are doing into another project that is hosted somewhere else. It's the second time an Apache member is asking me to go somewhere else. Believe me, right now it's my biggest wish - I've had more than enough ! I will repeat myself again, since you didn't get it the first time. Sigh. My point being that having two tree's is to much for this project and as far as I can tell, this project has already decided that the current future path is 4.0 NOT 3.3. When 3.3 will be ready you are free to vote whatever you want - I just hope your vote will be based on the quality of the code and not political interests. Actually, it has nothing to do with either. Since I'm not involved with Sun's political crap, I don't care about political interests. I am also not as concerned with quality of the code because that can always be improved on, however, that is very important. What I'm most concerned with is things that are important to the overall project like: x Core Developer support x Ability to read the code x Documentation x Support for the latest standards What I'm most concerned with here is the overall Tomcat project goals and seeing you duplicating work and effort is really not making me happy. Reuse != duplication It is when you have to spend time back porting that code instead of committing David Rees's documentation patches. I know some people prefer the "do what we tell you to do or go away " or "we know what is better " attitude. That is complete bullshit Costin if you are implying that I am giving you that type of attitude. My original email made it CLEAR that that was not the case. Go back and read it again. I don't want to defend myself , and I'll take it as a compliment - I think it's great to be able to think for yourself and be able to work when there's an awful lot of pressure to go away. The pressure is to either ask you to fork or to work towards what the project as a whole is currently working on. I don't think that that is a bad thing because it helps keep the overall project working together instead of this split that you like to continually draw on the project. It appears to me that you simply care about yourself and not about the overall project. That is bad IMHO. My goal is to finish tomcat3.x - after I'm done with that I'll continue to support it, but I'll stay far away from any future development or 5.0 - again, I've had enough. That convinces me even stronger to not follow down
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
- Original Message - From: "Jon Stevens" [EMAIL PROTECTED] callous rant snipped I think Jon is going for the record to see how many developers and people of good conscience he can alienate. Costin, I appreciate all of the hard work you have done on the Tomcat project. You were pivotal in cleaning up a rat's nest of spaghetti that Sun dumped (graciously donated) on the group. I like Tomcat 4's design better, but it wasn't burdened with the luxury of legacy! Jon will be quick to add that he also appreciates the hard work, as he has done so often between derisions. Jon, maybe it's not the message but the tact. My personal impression of you is in the toilet now. Not that you care. jim
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
on 12/18/2000 1:36 PM, "James Cook" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think Jon is going for the record to see how many developers and people of good conscience he can alienate. I thank you for your opinion. I'm sorry if people feel alienated as that isn't my intention. Costin, I appreciate all of the hard work you have done on the Tomcat project. You were pivotal in cleaning up a rat's nest of spaghetti that Sun dumped (graciously donated) on the group. Yea, luckily though Sun was smart enough to hire Craig. :-) I like Tomcat 4's design better, but it wasn't burdened with the luxury of legacy! Of course not. That is why I'm suggesting to move away from it for the future and opening the discussion of that now. Would you rather that we continue to follow down this path of split trees forever? Would you rather that all of our users are consistently confused? Jon will be quick to add that he also appreciates the hard work, as he has done so often between derisions. Jon, maybe it's not the message but the tact. My personal impression of you is in the toilet now. Not that you care. I have learned long and hard over the years that you just can't please everyone. It is a sad thing indeed. It is amazing to me how you guys can just sit back and actually think that what Costin is doing to the overall project and the users is a good thing! :-( So, given that no one else has an opinion about things until someone like me brings it up, I guess I'm always made out to be the bad guy. I can live with that simply because a year from now, we will have an even better product and even better project and this whole silly miff won't even matter to the people who are most interested in this software...the users. p.s. One thing that you are all not remembering or even realize is that Catalina was originally going to be JServ 2.0. If Sun had never given us the source code to Tomcat, then you would have been using Catalina anyway. thanks, -jon
RE: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
Hi Jon, From: Jon Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Of course not. That is why I'm suggesting to move away from it for the future and opening the discussion of that now. Would you rather that we continue to follow down this path of split trees forever? Would you rather that all of our users are consistently confused? I have learned long and hard over the years that you just can't please everyone. It is a sad thing indeed. It is amazing to me how you guys can just sit back and actually think that what Costin is doing to the overall project and the users is a good thing! :-( Another 2 cents from me... :-) Based upon your arguments I do agree that focusing development work on the 4.x tree is the way to go. After reading your message on "example case of my hell", I can see why you're keen on keeping the Tomcat tree in one piece. (Although you didn't quote the best example, as the problem that user was experiencing with the /admin context was part of tightening up the security holes in Tomcat, users are now forced to supply a username/password to gain access to the /admin context. Didn't Craig mention that in the release notes?) From my perspective, development (besides bug fixes) on the 3.x branch only makes sense as long as the 4.x branch isn't stable. But seeing as the 4.x branch is approaching beta-release phase, I would agree that the time to stop enhancements to the 3.x tree is rapidly approaching if not past already. As for what to do with the work done on the "3.3" release (which looks like it may be ready around the same time as the 4.0 release), forking it does not seem like a bad idea if only to save developers the support headaches. I'm sure that the committers will make the appropriate decision. -Dave
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Henri Gomez wrote: The users will decide. Be fair, let them evaluate TC 3.3. Speaking as a user, this doesn't make sense. It's fine to compare two different products, but it doesn't make any sense to compare two different versions of the same product that are undergoing simultaneous release cycles. Especially when you ask the list which you should be looking at, and you get one answer: "V3.3 because the architecture is better and V4 is an unstable rewrite," followed immediately by "V4 because the architecture is better and V3.3 is an unstable rewrite." The immediate reaction to which is, "if the *developers* can't even figure it out, I'm going elsewhere." I'm not saying you should cut off all 3.3 development, I just think it should fork and use a name other than "Tomcat". Maybe "xTomcat". :) Aaron
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
David Rees wrote: Hi Craig, -Original Message- From: Craig R. McClanahan [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Frankly, I am disappointed in the development process of Tomcat. I posted a simple documentation patch (See bug report 528) two weeks ago for the FAQ included with the Tomcat 3.x and posted a couple messages about it. I haven't heard a thing about it and saw the release of 3.2.1 come and go without the documentation fix. The reason this occurred is that a significant security bug was found, warranting an *immediate* 3.2.1 release that bypassed the usual testing cycle that a beta should go through. This wasn't the only thing that didn't make it -- but security issues are serious and need to be dealt with. I understand why it didn't get through when I re-mentioned it right before the release, that is completely understandable. The problem as I see it is that the bug report was in BugRat for a week (in addition to a normal post to tomcat-dev) before Tomcat 3.2.1 was released; plenty of time IMHO for such a simple documentation patch to be committed. I'm glad you understood. A week would be plenty of time, except that: * All the active committers are spending most of their time on "3.3" or 4.0, not on 3.2. * I personally had some Sun deadlines (which required changes to the 4.0 code) totally blown away by the need to do the security updates, and I'm not caught up yet. (To their credit, Sun recognized the priority issues involved in security fixes.) Of course, these problems are fixable if we had more committers ... especially ones interested in applying bug fixes to the current production release to keep it stable and appropriate for production deployments. (NOTE: Anyone who receives committer status gets commit access on all branches of all the project's CVS repositories.) Normal processing of bug fixes and patches on the "tomcat_32" tree is now feasible for a 3.2.2 release. Hint: I am not the only committer on this project -- others are welcome to help integrate changes too. Right, I'm not about you specifically, Craig (I think you're doing good work on the 4.x tree and are usually very responsive on the tomcat-user/dev lists), but I really would have expected one of the committers to pick up the patch. I would just hate to see someone else pound their head against a wall for a few hours because of incorrect documentation. Anyway, slightly off-subject now. I'm curious to hear your reply to Jon's post. -Dave Craig
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
Henri Gomez wrote: [snip] Tomcat 3.x or 4.x? That is the confusion that needs to be cleared up. The confusion will exist also for Apache 1.3 / 2.0. And this one will be much more important. It's actually pretty clear in the web server case. The active development is happening on 2.0, and nobody's trying to create Apache 1.4. Craig
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
Hello, (another user here) If the difference were spoken as tc 3.x follows servlet 2.2/jsp 1.1 where tc 4.x follows servlet2.3/jsp 1.2, then it's a clear difference that I can appreciate, and even base decisions on. I decided to follow 3.2, as I felt that it was getting the most exercise then jserv, and other branches. So far, I haven't been too disappointed with my decision (although the mod_* situation isn't pleasant to sort out). I would, of course, prefer one kickass roadmap that has amazing developers focusing on non-duplicating efforts, _but_ I can easily appreciate a 3.x/4.x roadmap if it was followed up with, for example, the standards difference that I mentioned above. (Another technical split one could make is the release of jdk support, etc.). Of course, if there isn't a difference that makes sense to user, then I fallback to Aaron's thoughts. Thanks, Kenneth Topp On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Aaron Mulder wrote: On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Henri Gomez wrote: The users will decide. Be fair, let them evaluate TC 3.3. Speaking as a user, this doesn't make sense. It's fine to compare two different products, but it doesn't make any sense to compare two different versions of the same product that are undergoing simultaneous release cycles. Especially when you ask the list which you should be looking at, and you get one answer: "V3.3 because the architecture is better and V4 is an unstable rewrite," followed immediately by "V4 because the architecture is better and V3.3 is an unstable rewrite." The immediate reaction to which is, "if the *developers* can't even figure it out, I'm going elsewhere." I'm not saying you should cut off all 3.3 development, I just think it should fork and use a name other than "Tomcat". Maybe "xTomcat". :) Aaron
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
kenneth topp wrote: Hello, (another user here) If the difference were spoken as tc 3.x follows servlet 2.2/jsp 1.1 where tc 4.x follows servlet2.3/jsp 1.2, then it's a clear difference that I can appreciate, and even base decisions on. For any previous version change in the servlet api (2.0-2.1, 2.1-2.2), I would agree this makes a lot of difference. Each of these new versions had pretty significant impact on apps developed to the previous specs. With 2.3, the changes are evolutionary additions. However, there is also a new mandate -- a 2.3 servlet container is *required* to accept and run 2.2-based web apps. Therefore, it's relevant to evaluate a 2.3-based server, even if all you want to do is run your existing apps. (This applies to all 2.3 containers, not just Tomcat 4.0.) I decided to follow 3.2, as I felt that it was getting the most exercise then jserv, and other branches. So far, I haven't been too disappointed with my decision (although the mod_* situation isn't pleasant to sort out). 3.2 is the only rational choice for production apps at the moment. That will change pretty soon. I would, of course, prefer one kickass roadmap that has amazing developers focusing on non-duplicating efforts, _but_ I can easily appreciate a 3.x/4.x roadmap if it was followed up with, for example, the standards difference that I mentioned above. (Another technical split one could make is the release of jdk support, etc.). JDK support is actually a useful criteria in this case. Servlet 2.3 mandates a Java2 platform (which Tomcat 4.0 takes advantage of by using lots of JDK 1.2 or later classes). If you are running on a JDK 1.1 platform, Tomcat 4.0 (or any other Servlet 2.3 container) is not an option for you unless/until you upgrade. Of course, if there isn't a difference that makes sense to user, then I fallback to Aaron's thoughts. Thanks, Kenneth Topp Craig McClanahan
Re: [MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
On Mon, 18 Dec 2000, Jon Stevens wrote: p.s. One thing that you are all not remembering or even realize is that Catalina was originally going to be JServ 2.0. If Sun had never given us the source code to Tomcat, then you would have been using Catalina anyway. I hope EVERYONE takes what Jon (oddly, so offhandedly) put in the PS to heart right now. This, gentlemen, is the record of history; and as far as I'm concerned, the final word on this thread. Look at the bugs in BugRat. The ones coming in for 4.0 are getting linked, documented and closed faster than the ones coming in for 3.x. The bugs for 4.0 are fewer than the ones coming in for 3.x. Shit, I think we've even got some 3.0's in there that haven't been dealt with! As far as those of you committing to the 3.x branch today, think about this: Your efforts are sorely needed in the 4.0 tree, right here, right now, today. I have read the code in the 3.x tree. It's shaping up nicely, true, but after reading 3.1 for about 2 days, I got so depressed about the project I thought I was going to blow my head off. To find even where the request comes in I found I had to grep for a "ServerSocket" and drill from there! When I look at 4.0, I can actually READ that code and understand it. There's a lot more to writing code whose source was meant to be publically consumed that is not evident in the writing of the 3.x tree. In short, 4.0 is the right code for the right project at the right time. -jon -- Nicolaus Bauman (The guy who runs BugRat for Jakarta)
[MY_OPINION] Tomcat 3.x
on 12/16/2000 11:55 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I believe in a different future and direction, I'll spend the time to make mod_jk and tomcat3.2 ( and the future 3.3 ) work with Apache2.0. mod_webapp is a nice start and I would love to see it integrated with mod_jk and tomcat3.3, and the autoconfiguration can certainly be reused in mod_jk - in addition with the current mechanism. And of course, after mod_webapp is ready we can find out if the current idea of using the native server configuration mechanisms is good or bad ( maybe with real technical arguments ). - but the big advantage in mod_jk and tomcat3.x is that it has the choice of using whatever is best - for example mod_jserv is still a good adapter from many points of view - and will continue to be supported next to mod_jk. If you believe that in "one size fits all" - I'm fine with that, and I have nothing against supporting that size too. Costin Costin, It really scares me that you are the only person (as far as I can tell) that is seriously interested in maintaining and developing Tomcat 3.x into the future. It is not good to have the entire rest of the core developers work on Tomcat 4.x and having you sit here and say that you are going to work towards back porting everything that the Tomcat 4.x people come up with on your own. Talk about a complete duplication of effort by only a single individual. I can't even understand someone wanting to base their work on Tomcat 3.x when all of the core developer support (ie: more than just one person) is going towards Tomcat 4.x. I *personally* think that you should either drop your Tomcat 3.x development and work towards making Tomcat 4.0 have all the features and benefits that you want to see in Tomcat 3.x (and thus show that we are all working together instead of this constant fork within the overall Tomcat project) or simply fork what you are doing into another project that is hosted somewhere else. In fact, I'm pretty strongly -1 on Tomcat 3.3. If anything it would need to be suggested as Tomcat 5.0 because as far as I can tell, we have already come to the conclusion that Catalina will be Tomcat 4.0. Don't take what I said as me kicking you out or killing things or anything even remotely personal. What I'm most concerned with here is the overall Tomcat project goals and seeing you duplicating work and effort is really not making me happy. Sure, you could say that the goals might be flawed in your opinion, which is perfectly valid, but the fact of the matter is that the rest of the people on the project are working towards making Tomcat 4.0 the future. In other words - feel free to follow the direction you like, but please let people who have a different opinion spend the time on what the feel is the future !! Again, I don't think that anyone here is suggesting otherwise. The issue is the manner in which you are working on your vision of the future is currently appearing to be a complete duplication of effort as well as competition with what is the current focus of the overall project. One thing that Craig did with 4.0 that was the right thing to do was to lobby the core developers into working on his vision of the future, where your "attitude" has been to simply continue working on your vision no matter what everyone else is doing. That is what I'm talking about not being good for the overall project. If you want to work on your vision. Please do so. Don't let us stop you. But, you really should do it as a fork in your own workspace. You should be into lobbying people to work with you...not as a "damn you all, I'm going to do what I want regardless of what you say" type of attitude. This is because you will never get any other core developer support behind you for Tomcat 5.0 regardless of how good your code is. I'm not telling anyone to "spend any time" on mod_jk if they don't feel it's a good protocol and a great idea - I offered my help to make tomcat 3.2 work with Apache 2.0. I hope other people will help - and it will be useful for those who upgrade to Apache 2.0 ( and probably part of the future ). Ok, here you are trying to convince others to work with you, which is GREAT!, but the issue is that why would anyone want to work on this code when the rest of the project is obviously more interested in seeing mod_warp be developed and mod_warp is obviously the more complete and forward thinking solution? We just don't have enough overall developer resources to support two different forks of the same project going on at the same time! This isn't good! :-( thanks, -jon
