RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In other words, I view time as eternal just like God is eternal. Peace be with you. David Miller. If time is eternal, what difference does it make from no time at all? J Izzy
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
go u s c !!!
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
In a message dated 1/4/2005 2:41:50 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hey JD: I might need some counseling...or another beer! Go with the beer. Here for ya, John
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/4/2005 1:37:26 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You look to your own sense of logic and draw a reasoned conclusion that the "image" has something to do with declaration of how we are as an actual being. I use my sense of logic and draw a reasoned conclusion that "image" has something to do with essense. Careful there John, your getting very close to being accused of thinking Hebraically!!! I for one like it! Cool. We all have something to learn from others. Glad you're here. JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Who I am
In a message dated 1/4/2005 1:27:53 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Wonderful story, Bill. (At least one of âthemâ in the Triad are really ârelationalâ! J J J ) Izzy Is this an example of belittling or just having fun at other's expense? Its fine to have fun - that was all I was doing before. No complaints from me -- just an observation. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
That is what I was saying. Thanks for the reveiw. JD In a message dated 1/4/2005 12:01:23 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Izzy wrote to John: >I cannot honestly make heads or tails of >the meaning of what you wrote above. I can't give you the full answer to your questions, but I can discern a concise statement from what John wrote. If I'm wrong John, please correct me in the spirit of meekness. John seems to be saying that God exists outside of time. Therefore, if God is a father, he has always been and will always be a father because there is no time for him. Likewise, the son always was a son and always will be a son, because time does not exist for him either. So the difference in primary assumptions between John and Terry seems to be that Terry assumes God exists within time (or at least is known to us within our context of time) and John assumes that God exists outside of time (without any possible reference to time). Another difference in definition of terms might possibly exist. John seems to be understanding eternal as focusing upon the idea of something "unaffected by the passage of time" whereas others might be understanding the word eternal to mean, "existing throughout all time, without beginning or end." Further elaboration in case you did not understand the sentence just written: -- John seems to define the word "eternal" to mean existing outside of time. Others might understand the word "eternal" to mean existing within time, but having extended toward infinity in time past as well as will be extending toward infinity in time future. John's perspective sees God as existing along the entire time continuum AT THE SAME TIME, but others might view God as existing along the entire length of the time continuum, but not at the same time (in other words, they would perceive God to experience time the same way that we do, with the exception that he never had a beginning and he will never have an end). Peace be with you. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/4/2005 10:57:31 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (1) What exactly IS the difference between what you think about the Trinity due to your âEternal Sonâ dogma, (I also believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are eternal) and (2) What difference does it make, anyway? Izzy Wasn't intentionally belittling -- just having a little fun at your expence. Sorry. I have been torn between the "Trinity" and the several manifestations of the Godhead (the Counselor, the Prince of Peace, plus the Father , the Son and so on.) so time for me to nail it down. So this is what I believe as of about ten minutes ago. Based upon the reasoning in my statement (good for me if not for anyone else), Father, Son and Holy Spirit are terms that describe the relationship of God to Himself. The Father is such, and eternally so, because He is the Great Originator (as David suggests) if for no other reason. The Son is such because He is always the Servant of the Father. The Holy Spirit is God at work in our world -- manifested in a number of ways and involved in a host of earthly/spiritual venues. As far as getting excited about this -- not me. I am never saved because I am correct. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/4/2005 10:47:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A father also is someone who originates something So the Eternal Father does have to have spawned angels and such. He could be the Father only because He is the Originator of all things. Thanks David. I believe you nailed. John
RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
I don't think time existed until The Beginning. Kay :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 21.54 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me Izzy wrote: > Why can't "eternity" where God dwells be untouched > by time, whereas we here in this galaxy or universe are > constrained by time (within God's eternal dwelling, > which is everywhere and always)? He would be God > in both places. He could be in both places, and I'm sure that John would take this position. If you accept the premise that God exists outside of time, and that time itself is created by God, then I think John's perspective makes sense. I do not accept the premise that God exists outside of time. It might be true, but if it were, it is outside the realm of rational thought because none of us has observed such a situation, nor is there any mathematical construct that I know of to describe it. Because I view Yeshua as the Logos, and because I believe rational thought is a gift of God, I make the assumption that time has always existed just like God has always existed. In other words, I view time as eternal just like God is eternal. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Izzy wrote: > Why can't "eternity" where God dwells be untouched > by time, whereas we here in this galaxy or universe are > constrained by time (within God's eternal dwelling, > which is everywhere and always)? He would be God > in both places. He could be in both places, and I'm sure that John would take this position. If you accept the premise that God exists outside of time, and that time itself is created by God, then I think John's perspective makes sense. I do not accept the premise that God exists outside of time. It might be true, but if it were, it is outside the realm of rational thought because none of us has observed such a situation, nor is there any mathematical construct that I know of to describe it. Because I view Yeshua as the Logos, and because I believe rational thought is a gift of God, I make the assumption that time has always existed just like God has always existed. In other words, I view time as eternal just like God is eternal. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Lance wrote: > So then, after some 20+ centuries of reading/living > Scripture ya dunno? (Slade, Kay, Jeff:40+ centuries) > Do you devalue that which and those who've gone > before? I'm hoping that both form and content matter > to all. No, I do not devalue any of those who have gone before. There has been no common consensus on the question from those who have gone before us. That's why we need to use our minds and think upon the question for ourselves. Can you reference for me those prior to the fourth century who dealt with Psalm 2:7? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Maybe I've blocked that from my mind... It's probably a symptom of cult-shock! Hey JD: I might need some counseling...or another beer! Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Jeff Powers Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 17.26 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Kay, If I remember correctly, they didn't call themselves Messianic. I can't remamber what they did call themselves though. On the other hand, I don't care either! I'm just glad I only spent a week with the wackos! It was more than enough for me. Jeff > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Slade Henson > Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 12.21 > To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org > Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement > > > I would say they claimed to be Messianic. However, I would not consider > them > Messianic. They are like no Messianics I know now or have known in the > past. > They were of their own breed, I guess. > > The control issues, the manipulations, the twisting words and Scripture, > sometimes outright lies, the self-righteous stuff, the way others were > treated, and definitely piety. That's all I can think of off the top of my > head right now. > > Kay > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller > Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 12.14 > To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org > Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement > > > Kay wrote: >> I experienced one cultish group within >> the past couple of years. > > Was it a Messianic cult? > > What made it cult-like? > > Peace be with you. > David Miller. > > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know > how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know > how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may > know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) > http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a > friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. > -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Kay, If I remember correctly, they didn't call themselves Messianic. I can't remamber what they did call themselves though. On the other hand, I don't care either! I'm just glad I only spent a week with the wackos! It was more than enough for me. Jeff -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 12.21 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I would say they claimed to be Messianic. However, I would not consider them Messianic. They are like no Messianics I know now or have known in the past. They were of their own breed, I guess. The control issues, the manipulations, the twisting words and Scripture, sometimes outright lies, the self-righteous stuff, the way others were treated, and definitely piety. That's all I can think of off the top of my head right now. Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 12.14 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Kay wrote: I experienced one cultish group within the past couple of years. Was it a Messianic cult? What made it cult-like? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
olive = Jeff - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 8:32 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 01:18:07 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Red = JD, judyt - Blue John are you one of the ones who claimed we humans are merely minds with a body, (or body and soul only)? Guess again, miss judy. Moses knew God was the Father of spirits and so did Aaron [See Numbers 16:22; 27:16] and He is the God of the spirits of the Prophets [Rev 22:6] JD: And where does any of this conflict with the sidebar in Heb 12:9 that God of the father of our spirits? jt: He would have a hard time being who He is if we the seed of Adam were not created spirit beings in His image and likeness before the fall. You look to your own sense of logic and draw a reasoned conclusion that the "image" has something to do with declaration of how we are as an actual being. I use my sense of logic and draw a reasoned conclusion that "image" has something to do with essense. Careful there John, your getting very close to being accused of thinking Hebraically!!! I for one like it! Whose to say, for sure (and please don't say, David). jt: I don't look to "logic" John, I see what I have written here in scripture, just because you don't see it right now doesn't mean it is not there or that you won't see it ever. I don't see anything about "essence" at all in the whole Bible, must be some theological construct that comes from the same place as the other doctrines and the procession which probably led to all the pomp and icons in the RCC. Not written in stone, I know, but much more likely than the other understanding. None of it is absolute. Johnjt: It's absolute so far as God is concerned - The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit ofprophecy [Revelation 19:10]. JD: You lost me. I have no idea what you and I are debating right now. Bring me up to date. jt: Not a debate, merely a statement of fact. Your facts are not mine -- that is why I prefer "debate" jt: Not even facts out of the pages of the holy writ? When the man with the brothers wanted to send more proof to his kin so they would believe - what was he told? - "they have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them" We have a more sure word of Prophecy wouldn't you agree? Well, yes -- but what has this to do with the image of God or Heb 12:9? Still lost on this end. jt: It has to do with your statement above that "nothing is absolute" What I am trying to say is that "God's Word" through Moses and the prophets is absolute. And so is God's Word through our Lord and Master.
RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 2:00 PM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me Izzy wrote to John: > I cannot honestly make heads or tails of > the meaning of what you wrote above. I can't give you the full answer to your questions, but I can discern a concise statement from what John wrote. If I'm wrong John, please correct me in the spirit of meekness. Thanks for having the patience, David, as I really want to get to the bottom of this if I can. John seems to be saying that God exists outside of time. I think I believe the same thing because time seems to be something that we are tied to because we age. He does not. Therefore, if God is a father, he has always been and will always be a father because there is no time for him. I tend to think that “Father” is a term God has given us to help us understand Him. He is much more than that, I think. Likewise, the son always was a son and always will be a son, because time does not exist for him either. I can also buy into that. So the difference in primary assumptions between John and Terry seems to be that Terry assumes God exists within time (or at least is known to us within our context of time) and John assumes that God exists outside of time (without any possible reference to time). If you say so. J Another difference in definition of terms might possibly exist. John seems to be understanding eternal as focusing upon the idea of something "unaffected by the passage of time" whereas others might be understanding the word eternal to mean, "existing throughout all time, without beginning or end." Why can’t I believe He is both? Are they mutually exclusive? Further elaboration in case you did not understand the sentence just written: -- John seems to define the word "eternal" to mean existing outside of time. Others might understand the word "eternal" to mean existing within time, but having extended toward infinity in time past as well as will be extending toward infinity in time future. John's perspective sees God as existing along the entire time continuum AT THE SAME TIME, but others might view God as existing along the entire length of the time continuum, but not at the same time (in other words, they would perceive God to experience time the same way that we do, with the exception that he never had a beginning and he will never have an end). Boy, that’s still a bit confusing. Why can’t “eternity” where God dwells be untouched by time, whereas we here in this galaxy or universe are constrained by time (within God’s eternal dwelling, which is everywhere and always)? He would be God in both places. Izzy Peace be with you. David Miller.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Well now, I think there is a wealth of understanding to be gleaned from the Rabbi's of old. They have helped me understand many points that I would have missed on my own. While I don't agree 100% all the time they have caused me to think! Jeff Life makes warriors of us all. To emerge the victors, we must arm ourselves with the most potent of weapons. That weapon is prayer. --Rebbe Nachman of Breslov - Original Message - From: "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 6:02 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me So then, after some 20+ centuries of reading/living Scripture ya dunno? (Slade, Kay, Jeff:40+ centuries) Do you devalue that which and those who've gone before? I'm hoping that both form and content matter to all. - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: January 03, 2005 18:55 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me Jonathan wrote: > I am continually astounded that those who have > been termed 'liberals' on this forum are the only > ones who hold to orthodox Christianity, that which > the church catholic has decreed for millennia. > The more we discuss the more we see how the > 'non-liberals' spurn the faith of apostles. Faith of the apostles? Reconsider your history a little, please. Your doctrine of the Godhead is not the doctrine of the apostles. You are arguing from fourth century wrangles of men. Even when the Nicean creed was first adopted, the churches did not follow it. Athanasius was exiled again and again and again because of his extreme view of the Godhead. Following the council of Nicea, the church was primarily Arian for the rest of Athanasius's life with only a few years of reprieve for him here and there. The part of the creed that you want to emphasize did not even exist in it until a decade after Athanasius had died. The doctrine I hold is the doctrine of the apostles of Christ. I challenge you to find any apostle anywhere that contradicts my teaching on anything. The doctrine of the apostles does not focus upon the nature of the Godhead. That is like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. The doctrine of the apostles is that which declares who Jesus is, the Messiah, and its emphasis is on men turning away from sin to believe upon Christ and keep his commandments. No apostle ever uttered: "believe in the eternal Father and eternal Sonship doctrine or be damned." Let me reiterate again. I have not taken a position on the eternal sonship doctrine one way or the other. I'm exploring the viewpoint. I believe that there is liberty to ask questions about the nature of the Godhead and to seek to understand it through discussion. You seem to want to resort to declarations of dogma and hit anyone who does not conform with cries of "foul... unorthodox... departing from the faith of the apostles... etc." Would you consider allowing us to think and discuss instead of insisting that we conform to questionable fourth century dogma? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Well Lance, Considering I'm one of those "Dangerous Messianics" do ya really want my opinion on this? I am not going to get bogged down by 'the David' or Judy, et al. (I do not have the luxury of the time to waste on this) so I'll say my piece and bow out simply because they are waiting to pounce on anything I say. I will tell you that I see Yeshua- Jesus (take your pick)throughout the Older Testament.He was/is the son from before the beginning of time. YHVH-God (again, take your pick) was/is the Eternal Father. I believe the pertinent scripture passages have already been stated and duly poo-poo'ed by those that reject this simple truth, so why bother again. By the by Lance you recently received a book that explains my feelings regarding this(but then I'm partial to the authors line of thinking anyway! And he dedicated it to my late wife!). In it you will find a much better explaination than I could ever give. Jeff Life makes warriors of us all.To emerge the victors, we must armourselves with the most potent of weapons.That weapon is prayer.--Rebbe Nachman of Breslov - Original Message - From: Lance Muir To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:28 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me To me "I don't know' is beginning to mean that 'the David', Terry, Izzie, (don't know where the 'Slade contingent' shakes out on this) are not only NOT informed by historic Christianity but, are kinda makin' it up as they go along. After all, if one has a Bible, the Spirit of God and, a mind then, why bother with that which has gone before? - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 03, 2005 19:52 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/3/2005 4:35:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I honestly do not know. I suppose that you could say He became a father when He created angels, and there is some justification for that in scripture. You could also say He became a father when He created Adam and Eve. The only certainty I see is that He became the Father of Jesus when His Holy Spirit impregnated Mary.TerrySo you don't believe in the Eternal Fatherhood of God? JD===What does I don't know mean to you?
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
The intrinsic worthiness of what you have to say will be perceived by any serious reader. Do you doubt that? It's the 'those who have 'ears to hear' thingy, David. -- Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: January 04, 2005 14:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me > Lance wrote: > > ... who are here to tell us 'the meaning of the Scriptures' > > and, 'Historic Christianity be damned'. This was the kind > > of approach taken by Joseph Smith along with a host of > > others over the centuries. > > This is not an accurate representation of my approach at all. I study > Christian History. Although I might be deficit in modern theology, what I > call pop-theology or fad-theology, I am not deficit in my study of Christian > History. Just because I might not blindly embrace everything popularly > established by historic Christianity does not mean that I think, "Historic > Christianity be damned." > > Why do you try so hard to marginalize me? > > This is a rhetorical question. Examine your own heart and ask yourself why > you try so hard to marginalize me. > > Peace be with you. > David Miller. > > > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Izzy wrote to John: > I cannot honestly make heads or tails of > the meaning of what you wrote above. I can't give you the full answer to your questions, but I can discern a concise statement from what John wrote. If I'm wrong John, please correct me in the spirit of meekness. John seems to be saying that God exists outside of time. Therefore, if God is a father, he has always been and will always be a father because there is no time for him. Likewise, the son always was a son and always will be a son, because time does not exist for him either. So the difference in primary assumptions between John and Terry seems to be that Terry assumes God exists within time (or at least is known to us within our context of time) and John assumes that God exists outside of time (without any possible reference to time). Another difference in definition of terms might possibly exist. John seems to be understanding eternal as focusing upon the idea of something "unaffected by the passage of time" whereas others might be understanding the word eternal to mean, "existing throughout all time, without beginning or end." Further elaboration in case you did not understand the sentence just written: -- John seems to define the word "eternal" to mean existing outside of time. Others might understand the word "eternal" to mean existing within time, but having extended toward infinity in time past as well as will be extending toward infinity in time future. John's perspective sees God as existing along the entire time continuum AT THE SAME TIME, but others might view God as existing along the entire length of the time continuum, but not at the same time (in other words, they would perceive God to experience time the same way that we do, with the exception that he never had a beginning and he will never have an end). Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
If ya hasn't read it how duz ya know what to call it? he asks? - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: January 04, 2005 14:34 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me > Lance wrote: > > ... who are here to tell us 'the meaning of the Scriptures' > > and, 'Historic Christianity be damned'. This was the kind > > of approach taken by Joseph Smith along with a host of > > others over the centuries. > > This is not an accurate representation of my approach at all. I study > Christian History. Although I might be deficit in modern theology, what I > call pop-theology or fad-theology, I am not deficit in my study of Christian > History. Just because I might not blindly embrace everything popularly > established by historic Christianity does not mean that I think, "Historic > Christianity be damned." > > Why do you try so hard to marginalize me? > > This is a rhetorical question. Examine your own heart and ask yourself why > you try so hard to marginalize me. > > Peace be with you. > David Miller. > > > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Was he jumpin' G's brother? - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: January 04, 2005 14:14 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement > Kay wrote: > > just did a little research and found both > > of them were Catholics. > > Do you mean Roman Catholics? Careful. While Roman Catholics might want to > claim a pedigree to the first apostles and therefore claim these men > (Tertullian and Athanasius) as being fathers in Roman Catholicism, the truth > is that Roman Catholicism did not begin until the 11th century. Prior to > 1054, there were no separate denominations in Christianity. The Roman > Catholic Church was the first denomination. The reason that few of us have > this sense of history is because our educational system has descended from > Roman Catholicism and is therefore biased by their slant on history. If you > consult with historians from Eastern Orthodoxy, they claim that they > represent the oldest church. The fact is that Roman Catholicism did not > exist as we know it until the final split they made from the Eastern > churches when they claimed that their Bishop in Rome had supremacy over all > the churches of the world. > > Furthermore, both Tertullian and Athanasius lived and belonged primarily to > churches in Africa. While they both visited Rome at times during their > lives, they were not very much part of the church there. Athanasius was in > Rome when he was forced into exile from the church, and returned to Egypt > when his banishment was lifted. When he was banished several times again, > he sought refuge in Northern Egypt or the outskirts of Alexandria, not Rome. > Clearly he was not a close adherent to the church powers of Rome, though he > was least rejected by the rulers there at the time. > > Kay wrote: > > The dude who also came up with the pre-trib > > rapture theory was also a Catholic a Jesuit priest > > who claimed to be a Jew.) I can't remember his name. > > This guys name was Manuel Lacunza, who wrote under the name, Juan Josafat > Ben-Ezra, but I think it inappropriate to identify him as the originator of > the pre-trib rapture. You might want to read the article at the following > website: > http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/macpherson-dave_dd_04.html > > The article referenced above indicates that Lacunza never taught the > pre-trib rapture. > > I think John Darby gets the real credit, though I realize others want to > credit Margaret MacDonald or Edward Irving. They were all three associated > with each other at some point, but Darby really articulated and put forth > the viewpoint as a theologian. This happened around 1830, the same time > Joseph Smith was introducing new Scriptures and a new church here in the > United States. :-) > > Peace be with you. > David Miller. > > > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Nice little distinction brother Miller. Now, who said you couldn't 'perform' syntactically? - Original Message - From: "David Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: January 04, 2005 14:22 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me > Jonathan wrote: > > You see there is no doctrine that makes us > > more godly. Your own beliefs have not > > made you mode godly. God Himself makes > > us more godly. > > I agree with what you are trying to say, but I have some trouble with your > syntax here. :-) > > Doctrine & Beliefs are two different things, but you treat each syntax as > the same. > > Doctrine does not make anyone more godly. God Himself makes us more godly. > Agreed. However, abiding in sound doctrine works to keep us from straying > into error. In other words, sound doctrine keeps us in that which God is > working within us. Sound doctrine facilitates holiness, but it does not > directly create holiness. > > Faith and belief, on the other hand, is the vehicle which attaches us to God > (I'm talking about when the object of faith and belief is God, not > doctrine). Therefore, our faith does produce righteousness in us. Faith > does make us more godly, by connecting us to the Spirit of God which works > within us. > > Peace be with you. > David Miller. > > > -- > "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org > > If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Lance wrote: > ... who are here to tell us 'the meaning of the Scriptures' > and, 'Historic Christianity be damned'. This was the kind > of approach taken by Joseph Smith along with a host of > others over the centuries. This is not an accurate representation of my approach at all. I study Christian History. Although I might be deficit in modern theology, what I call pop-theology or fad-theology, I am not deficit in my study of Christian History. Just because I might not blindly embrace everything popularly established by historic Christianity does not mean that I think, "Historic Christianity be damned." Why do you try so hard to marginalize me? This is a rhetorical question. Examine your own heart and ask yourself why you try so hard to marginalize me. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Jonathan wrote: > You see there is no doctrine that makes us > more godly. Your own beliefs have not > made you mode godly. God Himself makes > us more godly. I agree with what you are trying to say, but I have some trouble with your syntax here. :-) Doctrine & Beliefs are two different things, but you treat each syntax as the same. Doctrine does not make anyone more godly. God Himself makes us more godly. Agreed. However, abiding in sound doctrine works to keep us from straying into error. In other words, sound doctrine keeps us in that which God is working within us. Sound doctrine facilitates holiness, but it does not directly create holiness. Faith and belief, on the other hand, is the vehicle which attaches us to God (I'm talking about when the object of faith and belief is God, not doctrine). Therefore, our faith does produce righteousness in us. Faith does make us more godly, by connecting us to the Spirit of God which works within us. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Kay wrote: > just did a little research and found both > of them were Catholics. Do you mean Roman Catholics? Careful. While Roman Catholics might want to claim a pedigree to the first apostles and therefore claim these men (Tertullian and Athanasius) as being fathers in Roman Catholicism, the truth is that Roman Catholicism did not begin until the 11th century. Prior to 1054, there were no separate denominations in Christianity. The Roman Catholic Church was the first denomination. The reason that few of us have this sense of history is because our educational system has descended from Roman Catholicism and is therefore biased by their slant on history. If you consult with historians from Eastern Orthodoxy, they claim that they represent the oldest church. The fact is that Roman Catholicism did not exist as we know it until the final split they made from the Eastern churches when they claimed that their Bishop in Rome had supremacy over all the churches of the world. Furthermore, both Tertullian and Athanasius lived and belonged primarily to churches in Africa. While they both visited Rome at times during their lives, they were not very much part of the church there. Athanasius was in Rome when he was forced into exile from the church, and returned to Egypt when his banishment was lifted. When he was banished several times again, he sought refuge in Northern Egypt or the outskirts of Alexandria, not Rome. Clearly he was not a close adherent to the church powers of Rome, though he was least rejected by the rulers there at the time. Kay wrote: > The dude who also came up with the pre-trib > rapture theory was also a Catholic a Jesuit priest > who claimed to be a Jew.) I can't remember his name. This guys name was Manuel Lacunza, who wrote under the name, Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra, but I think it inappropriate to identify him as the originator of the pre-trib rapture. You might want to read the article at the following website: http://www.preteristarchive.com/PartialPreterism/macpherson-dave_dd_04.html The article referenced above indicates that Lacunza never taught the pre-trib rapture. I think John Darby gets the real credit, though I realize others want to credit Margaret MacDonald or Edward Irving. They were all three associated with each other at some point, but Darby really articulated and put forth the viewpoint as a theologian. This happened around 1830, the same time Joseph Smith was introducing new Scriptures and a new church here in the United States. :-) Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 10:55 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me In a message dated 1/4/2005 8:12:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Correction: make that ONE CONCISE SENTENCE please. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 1:19 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me In a message dated 1/3/2005 7:30:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I’d appreciate it if JD or Jonathan or Lance could please write in ONE CONCISE statement what they mean by “Eternal Fatherhood” or “Eternal Son” so we could at least decide if we agree once and for all. I still can’t fathom why they are all worked up about it. Izzy Although this is part philosophical, I will offer it as an explanation. In eternity, there is no time -- the absense of time. No time, no aging, no change -- what one is in eternity is what one always has been and always will be. He is the great I Am because there is nothing else. If He is God (a word, a title for many) then He is the Eternal God. If He is the Savior, then He is the Eternal Savior. THERE ARE NO OTHER POSSIBLILITIES IN THE ETERNAL WORLD (that's where we are not.) I can live for ever -- that has nothing to do with the statement that I am eternal. One is true, the other is not. THE ONLY REASON ONE IS ETERNAL IS THAT ONE HAS NO BEGINNING. Many of us have no ending. NONE of us have "no beginning" -- just God Manifest. I am forever a Father. That's a fact. God, on the other hand, is "forever" only because He is Eternal. Everything about Him is Eternal if in fact there is no time in his world. Everything that is happening to us, is happening in the twink of an eye twich as far as God is concerned. There is no passage of time for Him. His dreams, His wishes, His thoughts, His plans, His propositions, are our reality. For God, they have ALREADY HAPPENED. Same difference. That is why He is the Eternal Father and Christ is the Eternal Son. Christ has always been our salvation --- there never was a time (for us) that He was not our righteousness. Why? Because the plans of God are facts they are written in stone, they will occur. (in a time run world, they WILL occur.) It has been played out for us IN TIME But the Godhead does not live in a time sphere. If you think that weird -- fine, but give up trying to tell me different. I know that my world IS NOTHING LIKE HIS WORLD. I know that I have no idea what I will be like in that next life except I will be like him (you will find this in I John somewhere). You want to take the definitions for Father, Son, Judge, King and whatever -- you want to impose the definitions of these things from your experience in our world, go ahead. But I know that He is more different than I can say -- therefore, the notions of Fatherhood and Sonship CANNOT be defined and understood from my experience. They HAVE to be different and they HAVE TO BE ETERNAL. In an Eternal realm, one without time, you cannot start AHYTHING -- YOU JUST ARE "God changes not," BECAUSE HE CANNOT CHANGE. "Father and Son" go directly to what he is, to his purpose, to his planing for us -- to his care and keeping of this time worn world. And He does it all as Father and Son to us, for us and with us. You have your scriptures and by God I have mine !! You want your God to be something other than an Eternal Father and Son --- awesome, but not for me. Call me stupid but don't call me late at night and tell me i am wrong about this. I Have Spoken J David Smithson Pastor, Bishop of Love and Idiot. Tea anyone ? ! :-) Ain't going to do it. So your criticism is not that we have not explained but that it wasn't done in a single concise sentence. That is perhaps the most novel reason for rejecting truth that I have yet come across. Congrats. Lance has finally been proven wrong about his surmise that nothing can be truly original - you, my dear, have effectively debunked that bunk. You are my new hero. Just think -- David, Judy Izzy, poor old Terry Clifton and, now, poor old John Smithson ~!! Wow . J J, if you are finished belittling me for the moment: I cannot honestly make heads or tails of the meaning of what you wrote above. It reveals nothing to me about what I want to know. (1) What exactly IS the difference between what you think about the Trinity due to your “Eternal Son” dogma, (I also believe the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are eternal) and (2) What difference does
RE: [TruthTalk] Who I am
Wonderful story, Bill. (At least one of “them” in the Triad are really “relational”! J J J ) Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Taylor Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 10:36 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: [TruthTalk] Who I am I was born in Denver, Colorado and at 16 days old adopted to a family in Eastern Colorado. My adopted dad was a rancher. I grew up working cattle, fixing fence, planting feed, and hauling bales. I have happy memories of my childhood. My parents were Christians and they raised me in the church. When I was eighteen my dad died of cancer. He was 58 years old. He had been very sick for four years, the years of my high school experience. During that time, and under the weight of his sickness, I rebelled against all authority. I was very sad -- angry I guess. For many years I had tremendous guilt that I was not closer to my dad when he died. Throughout my entire life I wanted to find my birth-mother. I had dreams of who she was -- beautiful, intelligent, pleasant, and rich. When I was 27 years old I paid a lady $300 dollars to give to a friend of hers, who worked in the Office of Vital Statistics in Denver. Her friend made a copy of my birth certificate. There in my hands was the name of my mother. It turned out my mother's name was false. But she had used my birth-father's real name. With little difficulty I tracked him down. I cannot explain to you in words the joy, no, jubilation my father experienced when I found him. He and his sister had planned on raising me. He had held me in his arms the day I was born. He had left the hospital to get his sister, that they together could take me home. When he returned, I was gone. For 27 years I had been stolen. In spite I had been adopted out from under him. I later found my birth-mother. I talked to her on the phone. She wanted nothing to do with me. I went to her house one day and sat in my car until she came outside. I followed her and her husband to a restaurant and sat one booth next to them as she ate and talked about her day. She had no idea I was there. I watched her every move. Then I left. My birth-father is almost certainly Jewish, but he will not admit it. He grew up in Germany. Shortly after the Second War, his father moved the family to Canada, a few years later to the US. This I know: Opa had been on a ship loaded with Jews at the port of New York that had been turned back to Germany, prior to our engagement in the war. He was either a ship worker or one of those Jews. Several years later, when they (he and his family) reached Canadian soil, they changed their names, registered as Lutherans, and got baptized in a Canadian church. My birth-father was fourteen at the time. Many years later, he did not allow his two sons to be circumcised, and he did not allow his grandsons to be circumcised. He would not say why, but I suspect his own circumcision had been quite an issue while living in hiding in Germany. Perhaps someday he will realize the Nazi threat is over. Maybe then he will tell us who we are. My adopted dad was very analytical. He was a perfectionist. He was introverted and quiet. He had tremendous self discipline. He was well-read, a Scottish gentleman. He had very definite ideas as to how a man should act. In a lot of ways, living as he did, he was the Marlboro man. My birth-father is a hot-blooded, loud-mouthed German. He is expressive through and through. He has a bad temper and yells out his frustrations. When he gets mad he reverts to his childhood and spews a blizzard of profanities, German words I've never heard. Everything he does is done on the spur of the moment. He hugs and kisses. He loves and hates. He toasts and sings at the top of his lungs. His arms flail and he jumps at little provocation. Boisterous barely gets it. At family gatherings it is so loud that I have to escape, go for a walk, collect myself; I feel caged in, claustrophobic. I am caught between nature and nurture. Raised by a dad whose looks spoke volumes, I am quiet and introverted. Yet I too am of Eastern European descent. I have that hot blood running through my veins. On the spur of the moment I become my father -- and I do not know who I am. I am married and have three sons. I am forty three years old, five feet, eleven inches tall. I have black hair and brown eyes. My wife's name is Tanya (tan ya). She is 38. Our sons are Tyler, 20; Michael, 17; and Andy, 14. I will attach a picture, from left to right: Michael, myself, Tanya, Andy, and Tyler. Our dog is Paul. This picture is a couple years old. I bought my dad's ranch from my mother, about five years after his death. In the meantime I learned to lay bricks, stone, block, pavers, and tile. I am also a partner with my brother-in-law in a grass-seed company. We plant, harvest, and sell native grasse
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
John Smithson wrote: > A father is one who births an offspring in > relationship with a mother. You would think > the Trinity would be The Father, The Mother > and The Son A father also is someone who originates something. For example, Abraham is the father of faith. Abraham is considered the father of all those who have faith, including Gentiles who were not physically descended from him. We also consider the early church leaders to be church fathers. They originated the traditions that were passed on. We do not consider there to be any mothers in this sense of the word father. You mentioned in a post that you fathered a misspelling, but you did that without a mother, right? Clearly, the use of the word father does not necessitate that there must be a mother. David Miller wrote: >> Why is Yahweh called "father"? John Smithson wrote: > Because of His relationship with His Son. Are you sure? Why do you think this is the reason? Do you have a passage of Scripture that leads you to think this way? Is it possible that he is called father because he is the originator of all things? Is it possible that Yahweh was called father long before his only begotten son ever called him father? Do you think the Holy Spirit calls him father? David Miller wrote: >> Why does Jesus teach us to address him >> as, "our heavenly father"? John Smithson wrote: > Because of our relationship with His Son. Why did you answer this way? Why did you not say that it was because of our relationship to the father above? I have a brother in the flesh. I have trouble seeing that my relationship to my brother is the reason I would call my earthly father, father. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Doctrine of Creation
Jonathan wrote: > When I was younger there were a few arguments > that one used to determine where one stood on the > evangelical spectrum. Ten to fifteen years ago it > was evolution versus creation, the end-times, and > the use of the 'sign' gifts. I assume you mean you when you say, "that one used to determine where one stood on the evangelical spectrum." I have never noticed these issues as ever identifying evangelicalism, but I have noticed some who have been impassioned by these issues. Jonathan wrote: > Nowadays the litmus tests seem to be either abortion > or your favourite: homosexuality. These certainly are evangelical issues, because of the culture crisis. However, abortion has been a big issue for much longer than 10 to 15 years. I first protested an abortion clinic back in the 1980's. Jonathan wrote: > (Since the Bible rarely refers to homosexuality > [less than 10 references and none by Jesus] I have > always wondered why you seem to mention homosexuality > in almost every other post of yours? I have even wondered > if you yourself struggle with homosexual tendencies. > The saying is, "You doth protest too much.") LOL. Every other post? A little hyperbole in use here maybe? The idea that I must struggle against homosexual tendencies because I preach against it is a common objection that I have heard for over twenty years, usually from homosexuals. At the same time, others have objected because I have allowed homosexuals to attend Bible studies on a regular basis. They scream at me that believers are suppose to be separate. Some have even objected to TruthTalk allowing non-Christians on the list. No, don't worry, I have absolutely no homosexual tendencies. I perceive three big attacks against our society right now. They are the Islamic agenda, the homosexual agenda, and the abortion agenda. Sexual promiscuity in general is right up there with these, but it is encapsulated well enough in the homosexual agenda. Therefore, you will see me speak out against these issues. The homosexual agenda is hit a little harder by me on TruthTalk because I perceive that some on the list do not understand the danger it poses to Christians in this particular age. The homosexual agenda is a much greater danger now than it was at the time of Christ and the apostles of the first century. Jonathan wrote: > I used to be a literal 6 day young earth creationist. > ... It wasn't until I got a bit older and began to follow > up on some of 6 day young earth creationist's claims > that I began to realize how much 'bad' science was > involved. I then switched camps to the intelligent > design camp. There is a whole lot of bad science in the Creationist camp, because most of them believe in Creation because of the Bible, not because of science. Furthermore, the most visible Creationists are not scientists and emphasize popular, common sense ideas. I don't think you should feel compelled to join a particular camp. Learn to think for yourself. You are a very intelligent and articulate person. Accept what is good and spit out the bones. Have you ever read Robert Gentry's book, "Creation's Tiny Mystery"? His work represents one of the more scientific of approaches that a creationist has used. This is not to say that his work is without controversy, but I think his approach is very instructive about how a creationist might approach science from a creationist paradigm. I wish it was required reading at some point in high school when the evolution theories are considered in the classroom. If nothing else, it illustrates how a scientist investigates an idea and tests hypostheses. It also demonstrates the bias and bigotry that exists among scientists. Unfortunately, the creationists don't understand science well enough to value his work as they ought to, and the scientists are so against the idea of creationism that they ignore his work too. Gentry finds himself like many scientists who have been called of God, in no man's land, rejected by all groups. Jonathan wrote: > I believe that the book of Genesis is meant to be > interpreted theologically and not scientifically. But does this mean that the book of Genesis is not to be considered accurate in its historical comments? How can it be considered to be accurate about God in heaven if it is not accurate about earth? Jonathan wrote: > I believe that God was active in creating the cosmos > while allowing the cosmos to contribute to the process. > For example, look at Genesis 1:24 and 25. Verse 24 > is God saying 'Let the earth bring forth living creatures. > Juxtapose this with verse 25 which states that 'God made > the beasts...'. Here we see that God, being sovereign, > calls creation into being but at the same time allows for > the earth to be part of the process. But if this process of allowing earth to participate is meant to point toward evolution over a very long period of time, there seems to be a
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
ShieldsFamily wrote: Keep in mind that just because something is not a “salvation issue” does not mean it is unimportant. Everything we allow into our lives is important, as it makes us who we are. The prudent walk on the side of caution, realizing we have a sneaky and powerful enemy. We should walk humbly aware of our own weaknesses. We should be single minded in our pursuit of holiness. We can still live a joyful and exuberant life at the same time. Izzy Amen to all the above. Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Well, I re-posted saying I had a second thought. I've thought more about it and don't remember one time they called themselves Messianic. I think I as mistaken. I think there were some "Messianic beliefs" in their system of beliefs...like feasts and eating properly...but that would be about it. 7th Day believers have "Messianic Beliefs" in their system, too. K. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 12.44 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Kay wrote: > I would say they claimed to be Messianic. > However, I would not consider them > Messianic. This sounds like the kind of example I was trying to describe for you before. When I say "Messianic" or "Messianic Movement," I am talking about those who associate themselves with that label. In other words, I am talking about folks like these you encountered who claim to be Messianic. Maybe that will help you understand my past comments better. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who I am
Bill, you are so very blessed. Thanks for sharing about yourself. You have a wonderful looking family. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Kay wrote: > I would say they claimed to be Messianic. > However, I would not consider them > Messianic. This sounds like the kind of example I was trying to describe for you before. When I say "Messianic" or "Messianic Movement," I am talking about those who associate themselves with that label. In other words, I am talking about folks like these you encountered who claim to be Messianic. Maybe that will help you understand my past comments better. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Yanno, on second thought, no, I don't think claimed to be Messianic. Sorry about that. My mistake. Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 12.21 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I would say they claimed to be Messianic. However, I would not consider them Messianic. They are like no Messianics I know now or have known in the past. They were of their own breed, I guess. The control issues, the manipulations, the twisting words and Scripture, sometimes outright lies, the self-righteous stuff, the way others were treated, and definitely piety. That's all I can think of off the top of my head right now. Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 12.14 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Kay wrote: > I experienced one cultish group within > the past couple of years. Was it a Messianic cult? What made it cult-like? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I would say they claimed to be Messianic. However, I would not consider them Messianic. They are like no Messianics I know now or have known in the past. They were of their own breed, I guess. The control issues, the manipulations, the twisting words and Scripture, sometimes outright lies, the self-righteous stuff, the way others were treated, and definitely piety. That's all I can think of off the top of my head right now. Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of David Miller Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 12.14 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Kay wrote: > I experienced one cultish group within > the past couple of years. Was it a Messianic cult? What made it cult-like? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Slade wrote: > What a terrible thing to say. In this post, you > have proven the falseness of your prophetic claim. Why? I hope you don't think prophets are perfect in knowledge. I hope you don't think prophets are perfect communicators. Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Who I am
Thanks to all for these bio's -- sadness and victory in each... an amazing similarity. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Kay wrote: > I experienced one cultish group within > the past couple of years. Was it a Messianic cult? What made it cult-like? Peace be with you. David Miller. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/4/2005 8:12:48 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Correction: make that ONE CONCISE SENTENCE please. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 1:19 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me In a message dated 1/3/2005 7:30:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Iâd appreciate it if JD or Jonathan or Lance could please write in ONE CONCISE statement what they mean by âEternal Fatherhoodâ or âEternal Sonâ so we could at least decide if we agree once and for all. I still canât fathom why they are all worked up about it. Izzy Although this is part philosophical, I will offer it as an explanation. In eternity, there is no time -- the absense of time. No time, no aging, no change -- what one is in eternity is what one always has been and always will be. He is the great I Am because there is nothing else. If He is God (a word, a title for many) then He is the Eternal God. If He is the Savior, then He is the Eternal Savior. THERE ARE NO OTHER POSSIBLILITIES IN THE ETERNAL WORLD (that's where we are not.) I can live for ever -- that has nothing to do with the statement that I am eternal. One is true, the other is not. THE ONLY REASON ONE IS ETERNAL IS THAT ONE HAS NO BEGINNING. Many of us have no ending. NONE of us have "no beginning" -- just God Manifest. I am forever a Father. That's a fact. God, on the other hand, is "forever" only because He is Eternal. Everything about Him is Eternal if in fact there is no time in his world. Everything that is happening to us, is happening in the twink of an eye twich as far as God is concerned. There is no passage of time for Him. His dreams, His wishes, His thoughts, His plans, His propositions, are our reality. For God, they have ALREADY HAPPENED. Same difference. That is why He is the Eternal Father and Christ is the Eternal Son. Christ has always been our salvation --- there never was a time (for us) that He was not our righteousness. Why? Because the plans of God are facts they are written in stone, they will occur. (in a time run world, they WILL occur.) It has been played out for us IN TIME But the Godhead does not live in a time sphere. If you think that weird -- fine, but give up trying to tell me different. I know that my world IS NOTHING LIKE HIS WORLD. I know that I have no idea what I will be like in that next life except I will be like him (you will find this in I John somewhere). You want to take the definitions for Father, Son, Judge, King and whatever -- you want to impose the definitions of these things from your experience in our world, go ahead. But I know that He is more different than I can say -- therefore, the notions of Fatherhood and Sonship CANNOT be defined and understood from my experience. They HAVE to be different and they HAVE TO BE ETERNAL. In an Eternal realm, one without time, you cannot start AHYTHING -- YOU JUST ARE "God changes not," BECAUSE HE CANNOT CHANGE. "Father and Son" go directly to what he is, to his purpose, to his planing for us -- to his care and keeping of this time worn world. And He does it all as Father and Son to us, for us and with us. You have your scriptures and by God I have mine !! You want your God to be something other than an Eternal Father and Son --- awesome, but not for me. Call me stupid but don't call me late at night and tell me i am wrong about this. I Have Spoken J David Smithson Pastor, Bishop of Love and Idiot. Tea anyone ? ! :-) Ain't going to do it. So your criticism is not that we have not explained but that it wasn't done in a single concise sentence. That is perhaps the most novel reason for rejecting truth that I have yet come across. Congrats. Lance has finally been proven wrong about his surmise that nothing can be truly original - you, my dear, have effectively debunked that bunk. You are my new hero. Just think -- David, Judy Izzy, poor old Terry Clifton and, now, poor old John Smithson ~!! Wow . J
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/4/2005 6:14:45 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Then perhaps you should have kept them to yourself John; things shared on a public list become public. You were the one who made the accusations. You were the one who brought it up -- not me. My response of thoughtful and limited. Yours is neither. In a message dated 1/4/2005 6:00:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: IOW he was "taught by the Lord" and this is what I hear David saying. Many of you laugh at him and mock him calling him a self proclaimed prophet. Could it be that he is the one who is tuned in to the right frequency and you are seeking life amongst the dead??? I don't know if you are one of the ones who allude to it all the time John but I keep reading these tongue-in-cheek remarks on TT. Do you believe the 9 fold gifts [resident in the Holy Spirit], the ones Jesus sent to the Church are for today? It is for all believers. Do you discern a problem, ie: that David has a "wrong" spirit? I take it that these pentecostal prophets have given some false words which is not unusual in this generation. Do you believe David is guilty of this also? Maybe David's gifting operates as he is ministers publicly and if this is so then how are you able to discern?
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/4/2005 6:12:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: Not even facts out of the pages of the holy writ? Obviously, I do not believe your facts are biblical. Sorry. JD jt: Not my problem John. Your belief is between you and the Lord but you have yet to prove anything about my facts. Just because you don't see it does not qualify it as unbiblical. Not a problem at all. I have a 47 year growth rate record proving that God works in my life as surely as He works in yours --- errors and all (for each of us.) As far as proving you wrong -- not a possibility. "Not my problem, John" Of course it is. Cerainly not mine -- because they are not my "facts." So lets talk shop , not this kind of stuff. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/4/2005 6:12:59 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: I'm saying it is not "logic" John, nor is it my own human reason. God is the one who reveals His Word and if you have a problem with what I write then it is your reponsibility to show me in the scripture [in balance and in context] where I am off and you have never down this Been there and done that. But more than this -- I too believe that God has revealed His truth to me. Now, what are we going to do with this? You can say "Maybe so" or you can agressively attack (with scripture and in the name of the Lord, of course), thus securing your theology while exposing me for what I am -- in your opinion. JD
RE: [TruthTalk] Believing scripture
Maybe we should start a new (old) tradition??? Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:12 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Believing scripture Oh yes...really gives a nice peek into the lives of women...I want my own tent Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 10.09 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Believing scripture Red Tent was awesome. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 6:35 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Believing scripture UGH...that book sounds like the WORST. I've got some titles for the women The Red Tent by Anita Diamante Women and Stress by Jean Lush Emotional Transformation by Ann Hovell Dew (men can read it as well) Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 06.12 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Believing scripture There's a new book on 'Postmodernity and Mathematics'. May I suggest..? -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
There are a whole lot more CANS. (Ask “Builder Bob”) Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:10 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Sosometimes the prudent do nothing but sit in a chair in a strait jacket, too, because of all the CAN'Ts they can't do K. :) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 10.00 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Keep in mind that just because something is not a “salvation issue” does not mean it is unimportant. Everything we allow into our lives is important, as it makes us who we are. The prudent walk on the side of caution, realizing we have a sneaky and powerful enemy. We should walk humbly aware of our own weaknesses. We should be single minded in our pursuit of holiness. We can still live a joyful and exuberant life at the same time. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:57 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I agree with that. I know of some who say...can't dance, can't drink, can't smoke, can't go to the movies...or you go to hell! And others who say...you better call Him by the RIGHT name...or you go to hell. I think some of it gets pretty ridiculous. I don't think those are salvation issues. I think G-d has expectations of us...the same as I have expectations of my children. Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 06.41 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
LOL! I guess some on TT knows how that feels. (Not me!!!) J Izzy PS I think God just put a big electric charge on the arc and the poor guy grounded it. Strange fire was rebellion plain and simple. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 9:07 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I don't know. I guess it sucked to be him. How about Aaron's sons who brought strange fire before the Lord? Kay
RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Judy please change ink colors on your new postings to make it easier to spot the new comments. Thanks, Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 7:58 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 08:38:58 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: IOW he was "taught by the Lord" and this is what I hear David saying. Many of you laugh at him and mock him calling him a self proclaimed prophet. Could it be that he is the one who is tuned in to the right frequency and you are seeking life amongst the dead??? I have not seen this mocking and laughter. With respect to David's claim that he is a prophet as in "apostles and prophets," I do not believe that claim but I do not profaim David in that disagreement. jt: I don't know if you are one of the ones who allude to it all the time John but I keep reading these tongue-in-cheek remarks on TT. Do you believe the 9 fold gifts [resident in the Holy Spirit], the ones Jesus sent to the Church are for today? We are told to test the spirits to see whether they are of God -- that is an obligation, if you will, for some of us. jt: It is for all believers. Do you discern a problem, ie: that David has a "wrong" spirit? My decision and reasons for it are personal matters. David has every right to make that claim -- we have every right to question it. In my pentecostal tradition, I have seen several who claim to be prophets -- all without much proof or evidence. Good people brothers all. John jt: I take it that these pentecostal prophets have given some false words which is not unusual in this generation. Do you believe David is guilty of this also? Maybe David's gifting operates as he is ministers publicly and if this is so then how are you able to discern?
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
but don't you think that if dad knows the birth is any day now that he could prepare? Judy, that statement cracks me up as I remember in October my DIL (a week overdue) having labor pains as my son removes the back door and paints the frame and saying, “Don’t you think we should wait and see if it’s REAL labor?” As they spent the night at the hospital I got to stay home and fight the mosquitoes. J Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Believing scripture
Oh yes...really gives a nice peek into the lives of women...I want my own tent Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of ShieldsFamily Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 10.09 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Believing scripture Red Tent was awesome. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 6:35 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Believing scripture UGH...that book sounds like the WORST. I've got some titles for the women The Red Tent by Anita Diamante Women and Stress by Jean Lush Emotional Transformation by Ann Hovell Dew (men can read it as well) Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 06.12 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Believing scripture There's a new book on 'Postmodernity and Mathematics'. May I suggest..? -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Sosometimes the prudent do nothing but sit in a chair in a strait jacket, too, because of all the CAN'Ts they can't do K. :) -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 10.00To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Keep in mind that just because something is not a “salvation issue” does not mean it is unimportant. Everything we allow into our lives is important, as it makes us who we are. The prudent walk on the side of caution, realizing we have a sneaky and powerful enemy. We should walk humbly aware of our own weaknesses. We should be single minded in our pursuit of holiness. We can still live a joyful and exuberant life at the same time. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade HensonSent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:57 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I agree with that. I know of some who say...can't dance, can't drink, can't smoke, can't go to the movies...or you go to hell! And others who say...you better call Him by the RIGHT name...or you go to hell. I think some of it gets pretty ridiculous. I don't think those are salvation issues. I think G-d has expectations of us...the same as I have expectations of my children. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 06.41To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples.
RE: [TruthTalk] Believing scripture
PS The Secret Life of Bees was a good one, also. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 6:35 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Believing scripture UGH...that book sounds like the WORST. I've got some titles for the women The Red Tent by Anita Diamante Women and Stress by Jean Lush Emotional Transformation by Ann Hovell Dew (men can read it as well) Kay -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Believing scripture
Red Tent was awesome. Izzy -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 6:35 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Believing scripture UGH...that book sounds like the WORST. I've got some titles for the women The Red Tent by Anita Diamante Women and Stress by Jean Lush Emotional Transformation by Ann Hovell Dew (men can read it as well) Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 06.12 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Believing scripture There's a new book on 'Postmodernity and Mathematics'. May I suggest..? -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed. -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Matt 7:14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 6:27 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me Indeed Judy, it could be. The two (2) of you may be 'plugged in to the right frequency'. However, based on your extant writings that would leave the majority of God's servants 'unplugged'. Could be though. Certainly you believe this to be the case. From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 07:17 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me Or he has the mind of the Spirit. Lance - When the apostle Peter had the revelation that elevated him to Popehood in the RCC "Thou art the Christ the son of the living God" Jesus said "Blessed art thou Simon Barjona for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you" Peter's epiphany was a Kingdom moment and this is how normal Christianity is supposed to operate. The apostle Paul said following his epiphany on the road to Damascus that he did not confer with flesh and blood; he went to Arabia and then to Damascus, was gone for some years and when he did finally return to Jerusalem the apostles there could add nothing to him. IOW he was "taught by the Lord" and this is what I hear David saying. Many of you laugh at him and mock him calling him a self proclaimed prophet. Could it be that he is the one who is tuned in to the right frequency and you are seeking life amongst the dead??? On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:44:17 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: That remark resembles me, Terry. However, just what is it that I do not understand? I note that even 'The David' is able to say: 'Ya that's what those 'guys' came up with on this but, I don't agree.' Either he knows some history or, he has a good search engine. From: Terry Clifton Lance Muir wrote: To me "I don't know' is beginning to mean that 'the David', Terry, Izzie, (don't know where the 'Slade contingent' shakes out on this) are not only NOT informed by historic Christianity but, are kinda makin' it up as they go along. After all, if one has a Bible, the Spirit of God and, a mind then, why bother with that which has gone before? == Believe me Lance. You do not understand. Not here, not now, maybe not ever. Books and movies have warped your mindTerry
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I don't know. I guess it sucked to be him. How about Aaron's sons who brought strange fire before the Lord? Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of ShieldsFamilySent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 10.03To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement How about the guy who got struck down for reaching out to steady the ark of the covenant? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade HensonSent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 6:19 AMTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement The man picking up sticks was probably doing it to flip the bird to God. That's very different than attempting to beautify the campground. K. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 07.07To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement In a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place. I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
How about the guy who got struck down for reaching out to steady the ark of the covenant? Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 6:19 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement The man picking up sticks was probably doing it to flip the bird to God. That's very different than attempting to beautify the campground. K. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 07.07 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance Muir It is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement In a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in the first place. I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Keep in mind that just because something is not a “salvation issue” does not mean it is unimportant. Everything we allow into our lives is important, as it makes us who we are. The prudent walk on the side of caution, realizing we have a sneaky and powerful enemy. We should walk humbly aware of our own weaknesses. We should be single minded in our pursuit of holiness. We can still live a joyful and exuberant life at the same time. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Slade Henson Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:57 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I agree with that. I know of some who say...can't dance, can't drink, can't smoke, can't go to the movies...or you go to hell! And others who say...you better call Him by the RIGHT name...or you go to hell. I think some of it gets pretty ridiculous. I don't think those are salvation issues. I think G-d has expectations of us...the same as I have expectations of my children. Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 06.41 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples.
RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
== Like John, you do not understand that "I don't know" means I don't know. I see "I don't know" as an honest answer. I do not know everything. I see nothing wrong with not knowing everything, where you seem to take this as an admission that my reasoning is not valid and that somehow, what I do know is invalidated by the fact that there are some things that I do not know. Now you know. Terry J This could be confusing to those who have everything figured out in triplicate, Terry. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Lance, history “damns” much of what you consider to be “orthodoxy”. That’s why the thinking Believer doesn’t allow orthodoxy to cloud the issues. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 5:11 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me Is this the 'newer/gentler' Judyt? First John took note and, now I do. The past has nought to do with us. I think that each generation ought to scrap completely everything that the prior generation had known. Thereafter, we ought to start from 'scratch'. Each individual 'believer', reading the Scriptures, in the Power of the Spirit, ought formulate 'a Gospel' as 'shown' them. History be damned! - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 05:45 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me Good question. You're bright this morning Lance. Since God lives in the "Eternal" Now why must we live in the past? Note: and BTW it's not just a mind - what we do have is "the mind of Christ" On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 05:28:07 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: To me "I don't know' is beginning to mean that 'the David', Terry, Izzie, (don't know where the 'Slade contingent' shakes out on this) are not only NOT informed by historic Christianity but, are kinda makin' it up as they go along. After all, if one has a Bible, the Spirit of God and, a mind then, why bother with that which has gone before? - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 03, 2005 19:52 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 1/3/2005 4:35:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I honestly do not know. I suppose that you could say He became a father when He created angels, and there is some justification for that in scripture. You could also say He became a father when He created Adam and Eve. The only certainty I see is that He became the Father of Jesus when His Holy Spirit impregnated Mary. Terry So you don't believe in the Eternal Fatherhood of God? JD === What does I don't know mean to you?
RE: [TruthTalk] Deceiving and Being Deceived was Judy's Plagiarism
If we are to be Echad/One with our spouse, how can One have two masters; for one master will be loved and the other hated? n slade Exactly. Been there, done that. Izzy
RE: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Correction: make that ONE CONCISE SENTENCE please. Izzy From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 04, 2005 1:19 AM To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me In a message dated 1/3/2005 7:30:08 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I’d appreciate it if JD or Jonathan or Lance could please write in ONE CONCISE statement what they mean by “Eternal Fatherhood” or “Eternal Son” so we could at least decide if we agree once and for all. I still can’t fathom why they are all worked up about it. Izzy Although this is part philosophical, I will offer it as an explanation. In eternity, there is no time -- the absense of time. No time, no aging, no change -- what one is in eternity is what one always has been and always will be. He is the great I Am because there is nothing else. If He is God (a word, a title for many) then He is the Eternal God. If He is the Savior, then He is the Eternal Savior. THERE ARE NO OTHER POSSIBLILITIES IN THE ETERNAL WORLD (that's where we are not.) I can live for ever -- that has nothing to do with the statement that I am eternal. One is true, the other is not. THE ONLY REASON ONE IS ETERNAL IS THAT ONE HAS NO BEGINNING. Many of us have no ending. NONE of us have "no beginning" -- just God Manifest. I am forever a Father. That's a fact. God, on the other hand, is "forever" only because He is Eternal. Everything about Him is Eternal if in fact there is no time in his world. Everything that is happening to us, is happening in the twink of an eye twich as far as God is concerned. There is no passage of time for Him. His dreams, His wishes, His thoughts, His plans, His propositions, are our reality. For God, they have ALREADY HAPPENED. Same difference. That is why He is the Eternal Father and Christ is the Eternal Son. Christ has always been our salvation --- there never was a time (for us) that He was not our righteousness. Why? Because the plans of God are facts they are written in stone, they will occur. (in a time run world, they WILL occur.) It has been played out for us IN TIME But the Godhead does not live in a time sphere. If you think that weird -- fine, but give up trying to tell me different. I know that my world IS NOTHING LIKE HIS WORLD. I know that I have no idea what I will be like in that next life except I will be like him (you will find this in I John somewhere). You want to take the definitions for Father, Son, Judge, King and whatever -- you want to impose the definitions of these things from your experience in our world, go ahead. But I know that He is more different than I can say -- therefore, the notions of Fatherhood and Sonship CANNOT be defined and understood from my experience. They HAVE to be different and they HAVE TO BE ETERNAL. In an Eternal realm, one without time, you cannot start AHYTHING -- YOU JUST ARE "God changes not," BECAUSE HE CANNOT CHANGE. "Father and Son" go directly to what he is, to his purpose, to his planing for us -- to his care and keeping of this time worn world. And He does it all as Father and Son to us, for us and with us. You have your scriptures and by God I have mine !! You want your God to be something other than an Eternal Father and Son --- awesome, but not for me. Call me stupid but don't call me late at night and tell me i am wrong about this. I Have Spoken J David Smithson Pastor, Bishop of Love and Idiot. Tea anyone ? ! :-)
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
God alone is absolute. Your interpretation is relative. (as is every other interpretation put forward on TT) I believe that even 'The David' agrees on this.By the by, take care lest you speak ill of 'logic' as 'The David' might be listening. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 08:32 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 01:18:07 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Red = JD, judyt - Blue John are you one of the ones who claimed we humans are merely minds with a body, (or body and soul only)? Guess again, miss judy. Moses knew God was the Father of spirits and so did Aaron [See Numbers 16:22; 27:16] and He is the God of the spirits of the Prophets [Rev 22:6] JD: And where does any of this conflict with the sidebar in Heb 12:9 that God of the father of our spirits? jt: He would have a hard time being who He is if we the seed of Adam were not created spirit beings in His image and likeness before the fall. You look to your own sense of logic and draw a reasoned conclusion that the "image" has something to do with declaration of how we are as an actual being. I use my sense of logic and draw a reasoned conclusion that "image" has something to do with essense. Whose to say, for sure (and please don't say, David). jt: I don't look to "logic" John, I see what I have written here in scripture, just because you don't see it right now doesn't mean it is not there or that you won't see it ever. I don't see anything about "essence" at all in the whole Bible, must be some theological construct that comes from the same place as the other doctrines and the procession which probably led to all the pomp and icons in the RCC. Not written in stone, I know, but much more likely than the other understanding. None of it is absolute. Johnjt: It's absolute so far as God is concerned - The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit ofprophecy [Revelation 19:10]. JD: You lost me. I have no idea what you and I are debating right now. Bring me up to date. jt: Not a debate, merely a statement of fact. Your facts are not mine -- that is why I prefer "debate" jt: Not even facts out of the pages of the holy writ? When the man with the brothers wanted to send more proof to his kin so they would believe - what was he told? - "they have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them" We have a more sure word of Prophecy wouldn't you agree? Well, yes -- but what has this to do with the image of God or Heb 12:9? Still lost on this end. jt: It has to do with your statement above that "nothing is absolute" What I am trying to say is that "God's Word" through Moses and the prophets is absolute. And so is God's Word through our Lord and Master.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Are you putting yourself forward as a candidate, Judy? - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 08:15 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Good food for thought Kay - I know there is nothing we can do about when babies decide to make an appearance but don't you think that if dad knows the birth is any day now that he could prepare? God doesn't require of us more than we can give and there was another aspect to the Sabbath for Israel and this is the Covenant with Moses; the Sabbath was given for a sign so that man was a Covenant breaker also. It was God who said he should be stoned after the ppl had apprehended him not knowing what to do. So it appears as though he was made a public example of what not to do. Is this called "control by fear?" I've experienced rebellion first hand also and think seeing a public stoning would have had an impact. WDYT? On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:43:08 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I think he very could be that nutty. We see nuttiness like that every day. It's called rebellion. We do things everyday just because our parents say no, our doctor says no, etc. Doc says...no more cantaloupe...you'll have a severe reaction and what happens? We crave cantaloupe. Mom says: Don't smoke dope, your brain will go mushy. We say...REALLY? Let's find outThe reference to the fire going is very goodhowever, the command on that is not to KINDLE a fire on the Sabbath. If he already had a fire going, it would be okay to keep it going, especially if it was cold. Scenario: It's cold and a baby was just born in the camp. It happens to be Sabbath. Dad wants to be able to keep his newborn babe warm and goes and gathers sticks. If baby isn't kept warm, he will die. I don't think God would kill dadsaving life supercedes Sabbath law. I also believe GIVING (I don't know if that's the right word I want) life supercedes. I've had several of my children born on Sabbath. That's certainly work to mebut there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop labor once it's started! Kay From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Surely he wasn't that "nutty" - I see him as someone who was lacked the fear of God [like Korah] and followed after his flesh which the Law was there to curb. It's human nature to want to be on top of the game or two steps ahead of everyone else so this fellow was pushing the envelope and I don't think he really believed that God was going to do anything about it; I heard someone once say 'you know if he was getting wood that he had a fire going somewhere and so that's probably not all he was doing. jt On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:19:17 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: The man picking up sticks was probably doing it to flip the bird to God. That's very different than attempting to beautify the campground. K.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I'm beginning to wonder just how representative TT is 'theologically'. There's a book in here somewhere. I've stopped thinking -'no, that's one person who believes THAT' - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 07:49 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Teachable and unreachable must be one and the same in your economy Lance because you reject everything but trinitarian orthodoxy and give no scriptural reason why. Jesus told us His Word is what will bear eternal fruit. He is our example and during His earthly ministry He didn't appear to be very open structured and theologically flexible to me.. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:37:04 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Actually, slowly once again, I'm coming to understand that what God MEANS is what you & David say he MEANS. i AM TEACHABLE, YOU KNOW. From: Judy Taylor What if I don't believe that God is "open structured and theologically flexible?" even though He is unwilling for any to perish and even if His mercy does endure forever... He don't play - He says what He means and means what He says so why play fast and loose with His Words. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:11:58 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: No Judy, you tell 'em. Remember, he's got a stick in his hand. From: Judy Taylor Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Then perhaps you should have kept them to yourself John; things shared on a public list become public. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 09:06:45 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps you missed the part in the post below that says My decision and reasons for it are personal matters. David is not going to be a discussion topic other than what I written. JohnIn a message dated 1/4/2005 6:00:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: IOW he was "taught by the Lord" and this is what I hear David saying. Many of you laugh at him and mock him calling him a self proclaimed prophet. Could it be that he is the one who is tuned in to the right frequency and you are seeking life amongst the dead???I have not seen this mocking and laughter. With respect to David's claim that he is a prophet as in "apostles and prophets," I do not believe that claim but I do not profaim David in that disagreement. jt: I don't know if you are one of the ones who allude to it all the time John but I keep reading these tongue-in-cheek remarks on TT. Do you believe the 9 fold gifts [resident in the Holy Spirit], the ones Jesus sent to the Church are for today? We are told to test the spirits to see whether they are of God -- that is an obligation, if you will, for some of us. jt: It is for all believers. Do you discern a problem, ie: that David has a "wrong" spirit? My decision and reasons for it are personal matters. David has every right to make that claim -- we have every right to question it. In my pentecostal tradition, I have seen several who claim to be prophets -- all without much proof or evidence. Good people brothers all. John jt: I take it that these pentecostal prophets have given some false words which is not unusual in this generation. Do you believe David is guilty of this also? Maybe David's gifting operates as he is ministers publicly and if this is so then how are you able to discern?
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 08:59:23 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 1/4/2005 5:34:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:I don't look to "logic" John, I see what I have written here in scripture Actually, your sense of logic is all that you have, at times. Because your reasoned answer involves tying scripture to scripture does not mean it is right. I tie scritpure to scripture and you disbelieve that. jt: I'm saying it is not "logic" John, nor is it my own human reason. God is the one who reveals His Word and if you have a problem with what I write then it is your reponsibility to show me in the scripture [in balance and in context] where I am off and you have never down this. You just keep making these statements. I've not seen you tie scripture to scripture; I have seen you mix the teachings of the patristic fathers with scripture. jt: Not even facts out of the pages of the holy writ?Obviously, I do not believe your facts are biblical. Sorry. JD jt: Not my problem John. Your belief is between you and the Lord but you have yet to prove anything about my facts. Just because you don't see it does not qualify it as unbiblical.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Perhaps you missed the part in the post below that says My decision and reasons for it are personal matters. David is not going to be a discussion topic other than what I written. John In a message dated 1/4/2005 6:00:24 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 08:38:58 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: IOW he was "taught by the Lord" and this is what I hear David saying. Many of you laugh at him and mock him calling him a self proclaimed prophet. Could it be that he is the one who is tuned in to the right frequency and you are seeking life amongst the dead??? I have not seen this mocking and laughter. With respect to David's claim that he is a prophet as in "apostles and prophets," I do not believe that claim but I do not profaim David in that disagreement. jt: I don't know if you are one of the ones who allude to it all the time John but I keep reading these tongue-in-cheek remarks on TT. Do you believe the 9 fold gifts [resident in the Holy Spirit], the ones Jesus sent to the Church are for today? We are told to test the spirits to see whether they are of God -- that is an obligation, if you will, for some of us. jt: It is for all believers. Do you discern a problem, ie: that David has a "wrong" spirit? My decision and reasons for it are personal matters. David has every right to make that claim -- we have every right to question it. In my pentecostal tradition, I have seen several who claim to be prophets -- all without much proof or evidence. Good people brothers all. John jt: I take it that these pentecostal prophets have given some false words which is not unusual in this generation. Do you believe David is guilty of this also? Maybe David's gifting operates as he is ministers publicly and if this is so then how are you able to discern?
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 08:38:58 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: jt: IOW he was "taught by the Lord" and this is what I hear David saying. Many of you laugh at him and mock him calling him a self proclaimed prophet. Could it be that he is the one who is tuned in to the right frequency and you are seeking life amongst the dead??? I have not seen this mocking and laughter. With respect to David's claim that he is a prophet as in "apostles and prophets," I do not believe that claim but I do not profaim David in that disagreement. jt: I don't know if you are one of the ones who allude to it all the time John but I keep reading these tongue-in-cheek remarks on TT. Do you believe the 9 fold gifts [resident in the Holy Spirit], the ones Jesus sent to the Church are for today? We are told to test the spirits to see whether they are of God -- that is an obligation, if you will, for some of us. jt: It is for all believers. Do you discern a problem, ie: that David has a "wrong" spirit? My decision and reasons for it are personal matters. David has every right to make that claim -- we have every right to question it. In my pentecostal tradition, I have seen several who claim to be prophets -- all without much proof or evidence. Good people brothers all. John jt: I take it that these pentecostal prophets have given some false words which is not unusual in this generation. Do you believe David is guilty of this also? Maybe David's gifting operates as he is ministers publicly and if this is so then how are you able to discern?
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/4/2005 5:34:38 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't look to "logic" John, I see what I have written here in scripture Actually, your sense of logic is all that you have, at times. Because your reasoned answer involves tying scripture to scripture does not mean it is right. I tie scritpure to scripture and you disbelieve that. jt: Not even facts out of the pages of the holy writ? Obviously, I do not believe your facts are biblical. Sorry. JD
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I would agreeit is a sign between and Israel. I would expound on that to include those grafted in, which would include Believers. I would think the 7th Dayers are included as Believers. I agree they put quite a bit of emphasis on the Sabbath. I find it interesting that they focus so much on ONE aspect of God's holy days...they generally don't celebrate the other Holy days God gave us. I think there are "Judaizers" in all walks of Christianity. On preparing to rest one day a week...I think it should be the one day God said. He said so for a reason. I see nowhere that it was changed, except for what the men in the Catholic church changed. That was man changing, not God. I see man proclaiming ...tomorrow will be a feast unto the Lord...and God saying, Oh, no you don't, that's not any day I said...and many were killed for disobeying and worshipping a golden calf. Curse for disobedience. Too bad about your friend. I've seen several go off into lala-land as well. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 08.45To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I understand about having babies and don't know if God would consider that breaking the Sabbath (though we might). However, I don't see preparing to rest one day a week too much to ask. Jesus did say that the Sabbath was made for man and I've heard that expounded on quite often - how we need the rest and this is true. However in Exodus 31:14 where God gives the command to Moses he says "it's a sign between Him and Israel for their generations" I don't see the 7th Day Adventists included in there though. I believe they verge on cultism. I have a good friend who joined them recently and she's gotten rid of all jewelry [including her wedding rings] and suddenly everything revolves around the Sabbath for her. I love her and we still talk but we've lost the sweet fellowship around God's Word that we used to enjoy. Doctrines like these are so divisive. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 08:26:39 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I don't know if dad would have known when baby was going to decide to make an appearance. Even today, we give an estimated due date. I've never delivered on any of my given due dates; I've always been late. Sometimes women labor for hours...maybe mom began labor Friday afternoon and was still laboring way into the night and into the early morning hours. Some 7th Day Adventists would say that the Sabbath was given for a sign as well, and if you don't have that Sabbath keeping sign or "mark", you go to hell. Sabbath was made for man. I don't think it's called control by fear. I think it's called curse for disobedience. Sometimes the curse, or correction, has a high price, even today. Kay
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I understand about having babies and don't know if God would consider that breaking the Sabbath (though we might). However, I don't see preparing to rest one day a week too much to ask. Jesus did say that the Sabbath was made for man and I've heard that expounded on quite often - how we need the rest and this is true. However in Exodus 31:14 where God gives the command to Moses he says "it's a sign between Him and Israel for their generations" I don't see the 7th Day Adventists included in there though. I believe they verge on cultism. I have a good friend who joined them recently and she's gotten rid of all jewelry [including her wedding rings] and suddenly everything revolves around the Sabbath for her. I love her and we still talk but we've lost the sweet fellowship around God's Word that we used to enjoy. Doctrines like these are so divisive. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 08:26:39 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I don't know if dad would have known when baby was going to decide to make an appearance. Even today, we give an estimated due date. I've never delivered on any of my given due dates; I've always been late. Sometimes women labor for hours...maybe mom began labor Friday afternoon and was still laboring way into the night and into the early morning hours. Some 7th Day Adventists would say that the Sabbath was given for a sign as well, and if you don't have that Sabbath keeping sign or "mark", you go to hell. Sabbath was made for man. I don't think it's called control by fear. I think it's called curse for disobedience. Sometimes the curse, or correction, has a high price, even today. Kay From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Good food for thought Kay - I know there is nothing we can do about when babies decide to make an appearance but don't you think that if dad knows the birth is any day now that he could prepare? God doesn't require of us more than we can give and there was another aspect to the Sabbath for Israel and this is the Covenant with Moses; the Sabbath was given for a sign so that man was a Covenant breaker also. It was God who said he should be stoned after the ppl had apprehended him not knowing what to do. So it appears as though he was made a public example of what not to do. Is this called "control by fear?" I've experienced rebellion first hand also and think seeing a public stoning would have had an impact. WDYT? On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:43:08 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I think he very could be that nutty. We see nuttiness like that every day. It's called rebellion. We do things everyday just because our parents say no, our doctor says no, etc. Doc says...no more cantaloupe...you'll have a severe reaction and what happens? We crave cantaloupe. Mom says: Don't smoke dope, your brain will go mushy. We say...REALLY? Let's find outThe reference to the fire going is very goodhowever, the command on that is not to KINDLE a fire on the Sabbath. If he already had a fire going, it would be okay to keep it going, especially if it was cold. Scenario: It's cold and a baby was just born in the camp. It happens to be Sabbath. Dad wants to be able to keep his newborn babe warm and goes and gathers sticks. If baby isn't kept warm, he will die. I don't think God would kill dadsaving life supercedes Sabbath law. I also believe GIVING (I don't know if that's the right word I want) life supercedes. I've had several of my children born on Sabbath. That's certainly work to mebut there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop labor once it's started! Kay From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Surely he wasn't that "nutty" - I see him as someone who was lacked the fear of God [like Korah] and followed after his flesh which the Law was there to curb. It's human nature to want to be on top of the game or two steps ahead of everyone else so this fellow was pushing the envelope and I don't think he really believed that God was going to do anything about it; I heard someone once say 'you know if he was getting wood that he had a fire going somewhere and so that's probably not all he was doing. jt On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:19:17 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: The man picking up sticks was probably doing it to flip the bird to God. That's very different than attempting to beautify the campground. K.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
In a message dated 1/4/2005 4:28:20 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What if I don't believe that God is "open structured and theologically flexible?" even though He is unwilling for any to perish and even if His mercy does endure forever... He don't play - He says what He means and means what He says so why play fast and loose with His Words. True -- and He meant what He said when He said we are saved by grace . JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/4/2005 4:28:04 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: IOW he was "taught by the Lord" and this is what I hear David saying. Many of you laugh at him and mock him calling him a self proclaimed prophet. Could it be that he is the one who is tuned in to the right frequency and you are seeking life amongst the dead??? I have not seen this mocking and laughter. With respect to David's claim that he is a prophet as in "apostles and prophets," I do not believe that claim but I do not profaim David in that disagreement. We are told to test the spirits to see whether they are of God -- that is an obligation, if you will, for some of us. My decision and reasons for it are personal matters. David has every right to make that claim -- we have every right to question it. In my pentecostal tradition, I have seen several who claim to be prophets -- all without much proof or evidence. Good people brothers all. John
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 01:18:07 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Red = JD, judyt - Blue John are you one of the ones who claimed we humans are merely minds with a body, (or body and soul only)? Guess again, miss judy. Moses knew God was the Father of spirits and so did Aaron [See Numbers 16:22; 27:16] and He is the God of the spirits of the Prophets [Rev 22:6] JD: And where does any of this conflict with the sidebar in Heb 12:9 that God of the father of our spirits? jt: He would have a hard time being who He is if we the seed of Adam were not created spirit beings in His image and likeness before the fall. You look to your own sense of logic and draw a reasoned conclusion that the "image" has something to do with declaration of how we are as an actual being. I use my sense of logic and draw a reasoned conclusion that "image" has something to do with essense. Whose to say, for sure (and please don't say, David). jt: I don't look to "logic" John, I see what I have written here in scripture, just because you don't see it right now doesn't mean it is not there or that you won't see it ever. I don't see anything about "essence" at all in the whole Bible, must be some theological construct that comes from the same place as the other doctrines and the procession which probably led to all the pomp and icons in the RCC. Not written in stone, I know, but much more likely than the other understanding. None of it is absolute. Johnjt: It's absolute so far as God is concerned - The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit ofprophecy [Revelation 19:10]. JD: You lost me. I have no idea what you and I are debating right now. Bring me up to date. jt: Not a debate, merely a statement of fact. Your facts are not mine -- that is why I prefer "debate" jt: Not even facts out of the pages of the holy writ? When the man with the brothers wanted to send more proof to his kin so they would believe - what was he told? - "they have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them" We have a more sure word of Prophecy wouldn't you agree? Well, yes -- but what has this to do with the image of God or Heb 12:9? Still lost on this end. jt: It has to do with your statement above that "nothing is absolute" What I am trying to say is that "God's Word" through Moses and the prophets is absolute. And so is God's Word through our Lord and Master.
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I don't know if dad would have known when baby was going to decide to make an appearance. Even today, we give an estimated due date. I've never delivered on any of my given due dates; I've always been late. Sometimes women labor for hours...maybe mom began labor Friday afternoon and was still laboring way into the night and into the early morning hours. Some 7th Day Adventists would say that the Sabbath was given for a sign as well, and if you don't have that Sabbath keeping sign or "mark", you go to hell. Sabbath was made for man. I don't think it's called control by fear. I think it's called curse for disobedience. Sometimes the curse, or correction, has a high price, even today. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 08.16To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Good food for thought Kay - I know there is nothing we can do about when babies decide to make an appearance but don't you think that if dad knows the birth is any day now that he could prepare? God doesn't require of us more than we can give and there was another aspect to the Sabbath for Israel and this is the Covenant with Moses; the Sabbath was given for a sign so that man was a Covenant breaker also. It was God who said he should be stoned after the ppl had apprehended him not knowing what to do. So it appears as though he was made a public example of what not to do. Is this called "control by fear?" I've experienced rebellion first hand also and think seeing a public stoning would have had an impact. WDYT? On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:43:08 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I think he very could be that nutty. We see nuttiness like that every day. It's called rebellion. We do things everyday just because our parents say no, our doctor says no, etc. Doc says...no more cantaloupe...you'll have a severe reaction and what happens? We crave cantaloupe. Mom says: Don't smoke dope, your brain will go mushy. We say...REALLY? Let's find outThe reference to the fire going is very goodhowever, the command on that is not to KINDLE a fire on the Sabbath. If he already had a fire going, it would be okay to keep it going, especially if it was cold. Scenario: It's cold and a baby was just born in the camp. It happens to be Sabbath. Dad wants to be able to keep his newborn babe warm and goes and gathers sticks. If baby isn't kept warm, he will die. I don't think God would kill dadsaving life supercedes Sabbath law. I also believe GIVING (I don't know if that's the right word I want) life supercedes. I've had several of my children born on Sabbath. That's certainly work to mebut there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop labor once it's started! Kay From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Surely he wasn't that "nutty" - I see him as someone who was lacked the fear of God [like Korah] and followed after his flesh which the Law was there to curb. It's human nature to want to be on top of the game or two steps ahead of everyone else so this fellow was pushing the envelope and I don't think he really believed that God was going to do anything about it; I heard someone once say 'you know if he was getting wood that he had a fire going somewhere and so that's probably not all he was doing. jt On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:19:17 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: The man picking up sticks was probably doing it to flip the bird to God. That's very different than attempting to beautify the campground. K.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/4/2005 3:17:56 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So, another question you really can't deal with? Whose your mamma, by the way. Let's not forget that. Can't be a Father with one, you know. unless "Father" is not used in same sense Dad or Pop and , news flash --- it's not. John =I gave you an honest answer John. I do not dodge questions. Some things I know. Some things I do not know. iI you cannot understand "I don't know," why would I think you understand God's word? Terry I am reposting a comment in context that I made earlier -- apparently you have not received and think the above is my only comment. In a message dated 1/3/2005 6:02:43 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I honestly do not know. I suppose that you could say He became a father when He created angels, and there is some justification for that in scripture. You could also say He became a father when He created Adam and Eve. The only certainty I see is that He became the Father of Jesus when His Holy Spirit impregnated Mary. Terry So you don't believe in the Eternal Fatherhood of God? JD===What does I don't know mean to you? Well, in view of the fact that you followed up " I don't know" with a rather lengthly surmising, I would say that question was appropriate otherwise you would have simply said, I don't know and I wouldn't have asked the question. I mean, you surmised about this father thing, didn't you, suggesting more than one possibility, didn't you --- and, guess what, you left out the possiblility of the Eternal Father -- so you tell me. JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Good food for thought Kay - I know there is nothing we can do about when babies decide to make an appearance but don't you think that if dad knows the birth is any day now that he could prepare? God doesn't require of us more than we can give and there was another aspect to the Sabbath for Israel and this is the Covenant with Moses; the Sabbath was given for a sign so that man was a Covenant breaker also. It was God who said he should be stoned after the ppl had apprehended him not knowing what to do. So it appears as though he was made a public example of what not to do. Is this called "control by fear?" I've experienced rebellion first hand also and think seeing a public stoning would have had an impact. WDYT? On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:43:08 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I think he very could be that nutty. We see nuttiness like that every day. It's called rebellion. We do things everyday just because our parents say no, our doctor says no, etc. Doc says...no more cantaloupe...you'll have a severe reaction and what happens? We crave cantaloupe. Mom says: Don't smoke dope, your brain will go mushy. We say...REALLY? Let's find outThe reference to the fire going is very goodhowever, the command on that is not to KINDLE a fire on the Sabbath. If he already had a fire going, it would be okay to keep it going, especially if it was cold. Scenario: It's cold and a baby was just born in the camp. It happens to be Sabbath. Dad wants to be able to keep his newborn babe warm and goes and gathers sticks. If baby isn't kept warm, he will die. I don't think God would kill dadsaving life supercedes Sabbath law. I also believe GIVING (I don't know if that's the right word I want) life supercedes. I've had several of my children born on Sabbath. That's certainly work to mebut there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop labor once it's started! Kay From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Surely he wasn't that "nutty" - I see him as someone who was lacked the fear of God [like Korah] and followed after his flesh which the Law was there to curb. It's human nature to want to be on top of the game or two steps ahead of everyone else so this fellow was pushing the envelope and I don't think he really believed that God was going to do anything about it; I heard someone once say 'you know if he was getting wood that he had a fire going somewhere and so that's probably not all he was doing. jt On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:19:17 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: The man picking up sticks was probably doing it to flip the bird to God. That's very different than attempting to beautify the campground. K.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
In a message dated 1/4/2005 2:19:54 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 01:18:07 EST [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 1/3/2005 6:43:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Red = JD John are you one of the ones who claimed we humans are merely minds with a body, (or body and soul only)? Guess again, miss judy. Moses knew God was the Father of spirits and so did Aaron [See Numbers 16:22; 27:16] and He is the God of the spirits of the Prophets [Rev 22:6] JD: And where does any of this conflict with the sidebar in Heb 12:9 that God of the father of our spirits? jt: He would have a hard time being who He is if we are not who we are which is spirit beings created in His image and likeness [that is our ancestor Adam before the fall] You look to your own sense of logic and draw a reasoned conclusion that the "image" has something to do with declaration of how we are as an actual being. I use my sense of logic and draw a reasoned conclusion that "image" has something to do with essense. Whose to say, for sure (and please don't say, David). Not written in stone, I know, but much more likely than the other understanding. None of it is absolute. John jt: It's absolute so far as God is concerned - The testimony of Jesus is the Spirit of prophecy [Revelation 19:10]. JD: You lost me. I have no idea what you and I are debating right now. Bring me up to date. jt: Not a debate, merely a statement of fact. Your facts are not mine -- that is why I prefer "debate" When the man with the brothers wanted to send more proof to his kin so they would believe - what was he told? - "they have Moses and the prophets, let them hear them" We have a more sure word of Prophecy wouldn't you agree? Well, yes -- but what has this to do with the image of God or Heb 12:9? Still lost on this end. John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I experienced one cultish group within the past couple of years. On one hand, I'm grateful, because I learned alot and it's helped me first recognize and second avoid others of the same mindset. I'm also grateful because for some reason, we weren't sucked into that weirdness. I believe it's because of our firm foundation in Torah that "saved" us form the mess. It also honed my discernment and I learned to listen to that discerning quality more frequently. I wish we didn't go through it because it was a REALLY bad time in my life. Slade and I have seen things differently on obeying God for quite awhile now and it hasn't changed. If anything, understanding has become clearer and we have become free. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 07.43To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I hear you Kay and I do seek to obey the Royal Law through Christ. I know you and Slade see things differently right now. I don't know your testimony but can empathize if you have experienced cultish groups because I've been through that and have observed some of the same. Real under Shepherds who lead rather than drive or control are few and far between but there is a real and walking after the Spirit is not just an illusion. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:29:21 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Then why not obey His perfect Law?? If He doesn't play and He says what He meanswhen He says DON'T, why do we say...oh, that was for then but not now? If He says DO, why don't we? If He says those things, would He be setting us up to fail at something He knows we simply can't do? Kay From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorWhat if I don't believe that God is "open structured and theologically flexible?" even though He is unwilling for any to perish and even if His mercy does endure forever... He don't play - He says what He means and means what He says so why play fast and loose with His Words.
Re: [TruthTalk] Believing scripture
Obviously this answer comes from years of marital bliss. JD In a message dated 1/4/2005 1:50:05 AM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Slade replies: Yes. -Original Message- From: Dave Hansen Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 01.52 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Believing scripture DAVEH: H...are you a THEM or an US, JD?
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Teachable and unreachable must be one and the same in your economy Lance because you reject everything but trinitarian orthodoxy and give no scriptural reason why. Jesus told us His Word is what will bear eternal fruit. He is our example and during His earthly ministry He didn't appear to be very open structured and theologically flexible to me.. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:37:04 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Actually, slowly once again, I'm coming to understand that what God MEANS is what you & David say he MEANS. i AM TEACHABLE, YOU KNOW. From: Judy Taylor What if I don't believe that God is "open structured and theologically flexible?" even though He is unwilling for any to perish and even if His mercy does endure forever... He don't play - He says what He means and means what He says so why play fast and loose with His Words. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:11:58 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: No Judy, you tell 'em. Remember, he's got a stick in his hand. From: Judy Taylor Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I think he very could be that nutty. We see nuttiness like that every day. It's called rebellion. We do things everyday just because our parents say no, our doctor says no, etc. Doc says...no more cantaloupe...you'll have a severe reaction and what happens? We crave cantaloupe. Mom says: Don't smoke dope, your brain will go mushy. We say...REALLY? Let's find out The reference to the fire going is very goodhowever, the command on that is not to KINDLE a fire on the Sabbath. If he already had a fire going, it would be okay to keep it going, especially if it was cold. Scenario: It's cold and a baby was just born in the camp. It happens to be Sabbath. Dad wants to be able to keep his newborn babe warm and goes and gathers sticks. If baby isn't kept warm, he will die. I don't think God would kill dadsaving life supercedes Sabbath law. I also believe GIVING (I don't know if that's the right word I want) life supercedes. I've had several of my children born on Sabbath. That's certainly work to mebut there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop labor once it's started! Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 07.33To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Surely he wasn't that "nutty" - I see him as someone who was lacked the fear of God [like Korah] and followed after his flesh which the Law was there to curb. It's human nature to want to be on top of the game or two steps ahead of everyone else so this fellow was pushing the envelope and I don't think he really believed that God was going to do anything about it; I heard someone once say 'you know if he was getting wood that he had a fire going somewhere and so that's probably not all he was doing. jt On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:19:17 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: The man picking up sticks was probably doing it to flip the bird to God. That's very different than attempting to beautify the campground. K.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I hear you Kay and I do seek to obey the Royal Law through Christ. I know you and Slade see things differently right now. I don't know your testimony but can empathize if you have experienced cultish groups because I've been through that and have observed some of the same. Real under Shepherds who lead rather than drive or control are few and far between but there is a real and walking after the Spirit is not just an illusion. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:29:21 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Then why not obey His perfect Law?? If He doesn't play and He says what He meanswhen He says DON'T, why do we say...oh, that was for then but not now? If He says DO, why don't we? If He says those things, would He be setting us up to fail at something He knows we simply can't do? Kay From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorWhat if I don't believe that God is "open structured and theologically flexible?" even though He is unwilling for any to perish and even if His mercy does endure forever... He don't play - He says what He means and means what He says so why play fast and loose with His Words.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Actually, slowly once again, I'm coming to understand that what God MEANS is what you & David say he MEANS. i AM TEACHABLE, YOU KNOW. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 07:25 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement What if I don't believe that God is "open structured and theologically flexible?" even though He is unwilling for any to perish and even if His mercy does endure forever... He don't play - He says what He means and means what He says so why play fast and loose with His Words. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:11:58 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: No Judy, you tell 'em. Remember, he's got a stick in his hand. From: Judy Taylor Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Believing scripture
UGH...that book sounds like the WORST. I've got some titles for the women The Red Tent by Anita Diamante Women and Stress by Jean Lush Emotional Transformation by Ann Hovell Dew (men can read it as well) Kay -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Lance Muir Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 06.12 To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Believing scripture There's a new book on 'Postmodernity and Mathematics'. May I suggest..? -- "Let your speech be always with grace, seasoned with salt, that you may know how you ought to answer every man." (Colossians 4:6) http://www.InnGlory.org If you do not want to receive posts from this list, send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and you will be unsubscribed. If you have a friend who wants to join, tell him to send an e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] and he will be subscribed.
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Surely he wasn't that "nutty" - I see him as someone who was lacked the fear of God [like Korah] and followed after his flesh which the Law was there to curb. It's human nature to want to be on top of the game or two steps ahead of everyone else so this fellow was pushing the envelope and I don't think he really believed that God was going to do anything about it; I heard someone once say 'you know if he was getting wood that he had a fire going somewhere and so that's probably not all he was doing. jt On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:19:17 -0500 "Slade Henson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: The man picking up sticks was probably doing it to flip the bird to God. That's very different than attempting to beautify the campground. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy Taylor Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Then why not obey His perfect Law?? If He doesn't play and He says what He meanswhen He says DON'T, why do we say...oh, that was for then but not now? If He says DO, why don't we? If He says those things, would He be setting us up to fail at something He knows we simply can't do? Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 07.25To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement What if I don't believe that God is "open structured and theologically flexible?" even though He is unwilling for any to perish and even if His mercy does endure forever... He don't play - He says what He means and means what He says so why play fast and loose with His Words.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Indeed Judy, it could be. The two (2) of you may be 'plugged in to the right frequency'. However, based on your extant writings that would leave the majority of God's servants 'unplugged'. Could be though. Certainly you believe this to be the case. From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 07:17 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me Or he has the mind of the Spirit. Lance - When the apostle Peter had the revelation that elevated him to Popehood in the RCC "Thou art the Christ the son of the living God" Jesus said "Blessed art thou Simon Barjona for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you" Peter's epiphany was a Kingdom moment and this is how normal Christianity is supposed to operate. The apostle Paul said following his epiphany on the road to Damascus that he did not confer with flesh and blood; he went to Arabia and then to Damascus, was gone for some years and when he did finally return to Jerusalem the apostles there could add nothing to him. IOW he was "taught by the Lord" and this is what I hear David saying. Many of you laugh at him and mock him calling him a self proclaimed prophet. Could it be that he is the one who is tuned in to the right frequency and you are seeking life amongst the dead??? On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:44:17 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: That remark resembles me, Terry. However, just what is it that I do not understand? I note that even 'The David' is able to say: 'Ya that's what those 'guys' came up with on this but, I don't agree.' Either he knows some history or, he has a good search engine. From: Terry Clifton Lance Muir wrote: To me "I don't know' is beginning to mean that 'the David', Terry, Izzie, (don't know where the 'Slade contingent' shakes out on this) are not only NOT informed by historic Christianity but, are kinda makin' it up as they go along. After all, if one has a Bible, the Spirit of God and, a mind then, why bother with that which has gone before? ==Believe me Lance. You do not understand. Not here, not now, maybe not ever. Books and movies have warped your mindTerry
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
What if I don't believe that God is "open structured and theologically flexible?" even though He is unwilling for any to perish and even if His mercy does endure forever... He don't play - He says what He means and means what He says so why play fast and loose with His Words. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 07:11:58 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: No Judy, you tell 'em. Remember, he's got a stick in his hand. From: Judy Taylor Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Is that wherewalk softly and carry a big stick comes from?? K. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 07.12To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement No Judy, you tell 'em. Remember, he's got a stick in his hand. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 07:06 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
The man picking up sticks was probably doing it to flip the bird to God. That's very different than attempting to beautify the campground. K. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Judy TaylorSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 07.07To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgCc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Or he has the mind of the Spirit. Lance - When the apostle Peter had the revelation that elevated him to Popehood in the RCC "Thou art the Christ the son of the living God" Jesus said "Blessed art thou Simon Barjona for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you" Peter's epiphany was a Kingdom moment and this is how normal Christianity is supposed to operate. The apostle Paul said following his epiphany on the road to Damascus that he did not confer with flesh and blood; he went to Arabia and then to Damascus, was gone for some years and when he did finally return to Jerusalem the apostles there could add nothing to him. IOW he was "taught by the Lord" and this is what I hear David saying. Many of you laugh at him and mock him calling him a self proclaimed prophet. Could it be that he is the one who is tuned in to the right frequency and you are seeking life amongst the dead??? On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:44:17 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: That remark resembles me, Terry. However, just what is it that I do not understand? I note that even 'The David' is able to say: 'Ya that's what those 'guys' came up with on this but, I don't agree.' Either he knows some history or, he has a good search engine. From: Terry Clifton Lance Muir wrote: To me "I don't know' is beginning to mean that 'the David', Terry, Izzie, (don't know where the 'Slade contingent' shakes out on this) are not only NOT informed by historic Christianity but, are kinda makin' it up as they go along. After all, if one has a Bible, the Spirit of God and, a mind then, why bother with that which has gone before? ==Believe me Lance. You do not understand. Not here, not now, maybe not ever. Books and movies have warped your mindTerry
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
No Judy, you tell 'em. Remember, he's got a stick in his hand. - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 07:06 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
What I'm ever so slowly (too slowly) coming to understand, Judy, is that it is 'The Judy' and, 'The David' via the Spirit of God who are here to tell us 'the meaning of the Scriptures' and, 'Historic Christianity be damned'. This was the kind of approach taken by Joseph Smith along with a host of others over the centuries. (no offence meant to you directly, Dave Hansen) - Original Message - From: Judy Taylor To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Cc: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 07:02 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me jt: It's a good thing they are not "depending on historic Christianity" Lance also that Terry is smart enough not to be trapped by a "trick question" This "Eternal Fatherhood" comes from the same source of "historic Christianity" as the "Eternal Sonship" doctrine IMHO. Ppl just put words together willy nilly seemingly without the wisdom of the Lord in any of it. God was married to Israel, He was a Husband to her. He calls Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and this is how He introduced Himself to Moses at the burning bush [Ex 3:6; Matt 22:36; Mk 12:26, Lk 20:37; Ac 7:32]; they were joined by Covenant through Abraham. God has just one Son, the ONLY begotten one with a human body who called Him Father [even though angels are referred to as sons also since He is the Father of spirits] along with many adopted children who are Born Again or born of the Spirit in Christ. Old Covenant ppl call Him God. We need to allow Him to define Truth rather than "historic Christianity" because they have been deceived too many times. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 05:28:07 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: To me "I don't know' is beginning to mean that 'the David', Terry, Izzie, (don't know where the 'Slade contingent' shakes out on this) are not only NOT informed by historic Christianity but, are kinda makin' it up as they go along. After all, if one has a Bible, the Spirit of God and, a mind then, why bother with that which has gone before? From: Terry Clifton In a message dated 1/3/2005 4:35:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:What does I don't know mean to you? I honestly do not know. I suppose that you could say He became a father when He created angels, and there is some justification for that in scripture. You could also say He became a father when He created Adam and Eve. The only certainty I see is that He became the Father of Jesus when His Holy Spirit impregnated Mary.TerrySo you don't believe in the Eternal Fatherhood of God? JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Tell that to the man who was out there picking up sticks on the Sabbath. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 06:40:45 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirIt is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? From: Slade Henson God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
jt: It's a good thing they are not "depending on historic Christianity" Lance also that Terry is smart enough not to be trapped by a "trick question" This "Eternal Fatherhood" comes from the same source of "historic Christianity" as the "Eternal Sonship" doctrine IMHO. Ppl just put words together willy nilly seemingly without the wisdom of the Lord in any of it. God was married to Israel, He was a Husband to her. He calls Himself the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and this is how He introduced Himself to Moses at the burning bush [Ex 3:6; Matt 22:36; Mk 12:26, Lk 20:37; Ac 7:32]; they were joined by Covenant through Abraham. God has just one Son, the ONLY begotten one with a human body who called Him Father [even though angels are referred to as sons also since He is the Father of spirits] along with many adopted children who are Born Again or born of the Spirit in Christ. Old Covenant ppl call Him God. We need to allow Him to define Truth rather than "historic Christianity" because they have been deceived too many times. On Tue, 4 Jan 2005 05:28:07 -0500 "Lance Muir" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: To me "I don't know' is beginning to mean that 'the David', Terry, Izzie, (don't know where the 'Slade contingent' shakes out on this) are not only NOT informed by historic Christianity but, are kinda makin' it up as they go along. After all, if one has a Bible, the Spirit of God and, a mind then, why bother with that which has gone before? From: Terry Clifton In a message dated 1/3/2005 4:35:46 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:What does I don't know mean to you? I honestly do not know. I suppose that you could say He became a father when He created angels, and there is some justification for that in scripture. You could also say He became a father when He created Adam and Eve. The only certainty I see is that He became the Father of Jesus when His Holy Spirit impregnated Mary.TerrySo you don't believe in the Eternal Fatherhood of God? JD
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Indeed I do, Terry. - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 05:48 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me Lance Muir wrote: That remark resembles me, Terry. However, just what is it that I do not understand? I note that even 'The David' is able to say: 'Ya that's what those 'guys' came up with on this but, I don't agree.' Either he knows some history or, he has a good search engine.==Like John, you do not understand that "I don't know" means I don't know. I see "I don't know" as an honest answer. I do not know everything. I see nothing wrong with not knowing everything, where you seem to take this as an admission that my reasoning is not valid and that somehow, what I do know is invalidated by the fact that there are some things that I do not know.Now you know.Terry
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
Hehehehe K. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 00.58To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 5:16:10 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think there's a Scripture that says not to mix beer and tea...or maybe that's tradition! :) Kay You are correct, my dear. It is found in 2 Thought 10:4 next to the passage that allows for tomato juice mixer. I know it is there somewhere because of it's divine taste.John
RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I agree with that. I know of some who say...can't dance, can't drink, can't smoke, can't go to the movies...or you go to hell! And others who say...you better call Him by the RIGHT name...or you go to hell. I think some of it gets pretty ridiculous. I don't think those are salvation issues. I think G-d has expectations of us...the same as I have expectations of my children. Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 06.41To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples.
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
Lance Muir wrote: That remark resembles me, Terry. However, just what is it that I do not understand? I note that even 'The David' is able to say: 'Ya that's what those 'guys' came up with on this but, I don't agree.' Either he knows some history or, he has a good search engine. == Like John, you do not understand that "I don't know" means I don't know. I see "I don't know" as an honest answer. I do not know everything. I see nothing wrong with not knowing everything, where you seem to take this as an admission that my reasoning is not valid and that somehow, what I do know is invalidated by the fact that there are some things that I do not know. Now you know. Terry
Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me
That remark resembles me, Terry. However, just what is it that I do not understand? I note that even 'The David' is able to say: 'Ya that's what those 'guys' came up with on this but, I don't agree.' Either he knows some history or, he has a good search engine. - Original Message - From: Terry Clifton To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 05:21 Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Why the Eternal Sonship of Christ Matters to Me Lance Muir wrote: To me "I don't know' is beginning to mean that 'the David', Terry, Izzie, (don't know where the 'Slade contingent' shakes out on this) are not only NOT informed by historic Christianity but, are kinda makin' it up as they go along. After all, if one has a Bible, the Spirit of God and, a mind then, why bother with that which has gone before? ==Believe me Lance. You do not understand. Not here, not now, maybe not ever. Books and movies have warped your mindTerry
Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement
I do believe that G_d is more 'open structured' (read theologically flexible) than most of His disciples. - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 04, 2005 06:32 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement I think Slade has his thoughts on it more "thought out"...does that make sense? He's studied the issue in depth due to some anti-missionary problems we've run into in the past. I don't know what Jeff's thoughts are. K. -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Lance MuirSent: Tuesday, 04 January, 2005 05.36To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement It is becoming clear that 'othodox trinitarians' are a minority on TT. Kay: Do Slade and Jeff believe as you on this? - Original Message - From: Slade Henson To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org Sent: January 03, 2005 19:32 Subject: RE: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic Movement God is one, Scripture says so. God has many different aspects or manifestations I still haven't found any reference to trinity in Scripture. What I truly think is that some dude tried to make God more understandable to our very limited minds and taught us about the three in one. Makes sense to me to make a midrash out of something hard to understand. I'd like to know when the trinity concept actually came into being with Christians. I know Judaism has an aspect of it somewhere way back in time Kay -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: Monday, 03 January, 2005 18.22To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSubject: Re: [TruthTalk] Judaizers within the Messianic MovementIn a message dated 1/3/2005 1:26:04 PM Pacific Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Denouncing trinity? I didn't know there was such a Biblical term in thefirst place.I think David has a problem here. If you are not denying God in Trinity by refusing to consider Christ as the Eternal Son, how can we say that Messianics deny God the Reality by asserting the oneness of God? John
