DAVEH: As I see it, the big problem was
not the heresy as much as it was the lack of authority.
Judy Taylor wrote:
From my perspective the Mormon boys are
being shown by those of you who adhere to Orthodoxy to a Tee
that Joseph Smith was right - His big
problem was with the
DAVEH: While it does make for an interesting sideshow, to me it is
rather disappointing. I had hoped that most non LDS Christians would
find more agreement in their beliefs. I'm not sure why I thought that
would be the case though, as history has repeatedly demonstrated the
lack of cohesion
Lance, I don't know if you woke up on the wrong side of the bed or what, but
the bombardment of comments like the following are bound to derail the
conversation. Can you tone down the personal assault and stick to the
issues?
Lance wrote:
Doncha just love the built-in patronizing attitutude
Judy wrote:
So Mr. Answer Man - I know you have it all
sewed up with your incarnational doctrine and
all, noone has to sweat it - not anyone, least of
all you. You can spend all of your time in worldliness
and carnality and when you hear the trumpet and
it's time of the Marriage Supper just
Judy wrote:
Was Jesus born with a regular fleshly human
nature as per Galatians 5:19
Gal. 5:19ff describes the kind of behavior that would have been manifested
in Jesus if he had followed his flesh. The behavior listed there does not
describe Jesus because he followed the Spirit and not the
Judy wrote:
Problem is that the scriptures he used were
not pertaining to the weakness of Jesus flesh;
the ONLY scriptures on this subject are the
ones using the word likeness - the others
speak to different areas or our pilgrimage -
which is different from His even though he did
leave us
Judy wrote:
Yes he had a flesh and blood body with the same
limitations as the ones we have only he was not
just like us David. The difference is one of heart/holiness
and God gave the Spirit without measure to Him (John 3:34)
We have nothing like that going on... and the Spirit quickens
Lance wrote:
Let me say something to everyone on TT who employs
the letters RCC as an epithet; THIS WAS THE BIRTH
OF CHRIST'S CHURCH!! If y'all got a problem with
that then, take it up with Him.
Lance, surely you know that this is not true what you just said. This is
one of the biggest lies
In my posted comment below, I say "God and man." He is the Son of God and, thus, God Himself (John 5:18). He is the Son of Man, thus, man(kind) himself. As Son of God, He is the fullness of the very nature of God, the visible presentation of the invisibleGod. As Son of Man,He is the prefect(ed)
Dang !!-Original Message-From: Charles Perry Locke [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Fri, 22 Jul 2005 22:45:53 -0700Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
John, could Freud (or Kevin) have been right? You wrote:"it is not in my bile of choice (NASV) ..."
JD wrote:
Who says this is not an esstential? You?
DM? And what are these essentials/
None of you fundies ever get around to
answering that question. Do you all think
this goes unnoticed?
Well, I'm not a fundy, but I will try to answer this for you.
First, let me say that contrary to
Judy wrote:
He was on earth as the Son of God. ...
God is omnipotent and omnipresent, transcendent
etc. When he came in a flesh body Jesus was none
of these, in fact He plainly said The Father is greater
than I.
JD wrote:
Don't be fooled. The scriptures plainly teach that
Jesus Christ
JD wrote:
Why do we not find people in the NT scriptures
inviting the Lord into their lives?
Izzy wrote:
We see it all the time. Did they leave that part out
of your translation also?
I think John's point is that in the Bible, people did not invite the Lord
into their lives through saying
The reason we are not comdemned has nothing, ultimately, to do with our effort. Rather, in Christ we escape judgment altogether (John 3:18; 5:24). Because of the fact of reconciliation, we are presented as ones who cannot (read: CANNOT) be called into account - cf. Col 1:22 and the word
David Miller wrote:
Note that even after being born again and receiving the Spirit of Christ, we
have all these things abiding in our flesh. Why aren't they alive? Why
aren't we walking in adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strife, seditions,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
In my posted comment below, I say "God and man." He is the
Son of God and, thus, God Himself (John 5:18). He is the Son of Man,
thus, man(kind) himself. As Son of God, He is the fullness of the very nature of God,
the visible presentation of the invisibleGod.
DaveH wrote:
Except in the RCC, authority apparently has little
relevance, and doctrinal disputations (misinterpretations)
seemingly divide Protestantism as efficiently as a Ginsu
knife demonstration slices, chops and dices onions.
Well, Dave, with 85% of Americans claiming to be Christian,
You start off rather well:I do not believe that there is any list of doctrines that must be adhered to in order to be saved. And then (almost immediately) , you write: So how do we determine essential doctrines? Well ...
Whatever.
JD
-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL
Absolutely? Your point?
Jd-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 08:11:14 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John 16:13,14
Judy wrote:
He was on earth as the Son of God. ...
God is omnipotent and omnipresent,
Why would you write this: I think John's point is that in the Bible, people did not invite the Lord into their lives through saying "the sinner's prayer." Rather, they were led into the waters of baptism rather than into saying a prayer. ?
JD
-Original Message-From: David Miller [EMAIL
John, do you see a big difference in the terms "Born again" and "New
creature in Christ"? My own thinking is that it would be hard to be a
NEW creature without being born again.
Terry
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
My argument was quite biblical. When you want to honestly
discuss the
David Miller wrote:
Note that even after being born again and receiving
the Spirit of Christ, we have all these things abiding
in our flesh. Why aren't they alive? Why aren't we
walking in adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, strife, seditions,
sin has nothing to
do with God--there is nothing Godmust defeat, over which to exercise power
to control
sin is attempting
to manipulate God--God has yet to be manipulated
God's power is
sacred, employedpurely to elevate in his own style those whocommit
tothe foregoing, rather than to
I think we may be quibbling over nothing. We are told to seek the
Lord, so what do we do when we find Him? Tell Him to stay out of our
life?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Do a little comparative reading on verse v. 37 -- it is not in
my bile of choice (NASV) But
even with its inclusion
I believe that Philip 2:12-13 presents us with the teaching that God is the reason forour will to do the right thing and our ability to accomplish such -- that this applies to all of mankind since the Reconciliation (Col 1:17-24). When I read that "No man comes to me except the
I agree David - I did and Perry has brought that to my attention; I know
better and have repented. After I sent that lightning zapped our modem
during
a thunder storm so I've had time to recover. This laptop is
uncomfortable - we
are going out this a.m. to find another modem. I hear you.
Sorry, I hit the wrong button -- wasn'tfinished. Understanding what "born again is,"(previous post)I agree with your thinkiing entirely... being a "new creature" has everything to do with our fellowship or joint participation in the Spirit (Phil 2:1).
JD-Original
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:15:53 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I believe that Philip 2:12-13 presents us with the teaching that God is
the reason forour will to do the right thing and our ability to
accomplish such -- that this applies to
all of mankind since
How is this IMPOSSIBLE since Jesus victory over the presence, power, and
practice of sin on our behalf?
Becoming part of this victory means agreeing with God regarding our
hopeless and helpless condition so that
we die to all that and are born again receiving a new heart and a different
They had to receive the Word of God before being baptized - see the example
of Philip and the
Ethiopian eunuch. But then some were baptized without a heart change
- see Simon the magician
who even after being baptized wanted to pay money to receive the gift of
the Holy Spirit. Today if
Judyt: My point is that he was not fully God in the flesh and neither was
he fully man
because he is constantly referred to as a "holy child" He was holy from
birth
Mankind is not and this is why we so desperately need him and why he
diedfor us
He is what He is and we need to be open to
Judyt: Much as I hate to disagree with you and Terry I've got to on this
one because it promotes the "incarnational" thing.
Colossians 1:22 is the reality of the "risen Christ" John. It is not
how he walked amongst Israel and reading scripture in
balance and context would demonstrate this.
Dave, Jesus is the authority and he did not set up a hierarchal flesh
kingdom to stand in for Him
His kingdom is organic rather than organizational. Leadership leads
by example rather than as CEO
The least is as important as the greatest and all are to submit one to
another in the fear of
i believe
it
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:38:18 -0400 Judith H Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
||
..YOU SHALL DIE
judyt: Not entirely true JD. Yes he won the victory for us but
it does take effort to walk in that victory
This is what it means to "work out your own salvation with fear and
trembling" and "continuing in hope"
or not letting go. We must overcome the world, flesh, and devil
because of our
Amen, it is our choice to walk after the Spirit every day that gives us
power to overcome in these areas because we sure could if we wanted to.
Some ppl are overcome even after coming to Christ and these need
deliverance
and counsel many times. Last night I was at a Church dinner and some of
Judy wrote:
They had to receive the Word of God before being
baptized - see the example of Philip and the Ethiopian
eunuch.
This is true, but the Ethiopian you mention did not say the sinner's prayer.
He asked to be baptized. This passage tells me several things: 1) Philip
did not tell
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Judy wrote:
Yes he had a flesh and blood body with the same limitations as the ones
we have only he was not
just like us David. The difference is one of heart/holiness and God
gave the Spirit without measure to Him (John 3:34)
We have nothing like that
judyt: Technically yes, but then we are playing word games. My question
is always
what does scripture communicate. I believe He was always a member of the
Godhead
He is the same yesterday, today, and forever; He is God the Word and when
He
took upon himself mankind's likeness He was still God
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Judy wrote:
They had to receive the Word of God before being baptized - see the
example of Philip and the Ethiopian
eunuch.
This is true, but the Ethiopian you mention did not say the sinner's
prayer. He asked to be baptized. This passage tells me several
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Judy wrote:
Problem is that the scriptures he used were not pertaining to the
weakness of Jesus flesh;
the ONLY scriptures on this subject are the ones using the word
likeness - the others
speak to different areas or our pilgrimage - which is different
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Judy wrote:
Yes, I do believe we all come into this world with
an inheritance in and a natural propensity toward
sin ... ATST I don't believe that all babies automatically
go to hell because God is merciful and He is a God
of covenant which is what Paul
From: David Miller [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Judy wrote:
Was Jesus born with a regular fleshly human
nature as per Galatians 5:19
Gal. 5:19ff describes the kind of behavior that would have been
manifested
in Jesus if he had followed his flesh. The behavior listed there does
not
describe Jesus
I am very aware that the old man still lurks in the darkness, more than
ready to take over if allowed to do so. "There is nothing good in me"
is a statement that applies to anyone without the mind of Christ.
I stopped drinking twenty years ago because one was too many and a
case was not
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I believe that Philip 2:12-13 presents us with the teaching that
God is the reason forour will to do the right thing and our ability
to accomplish such -- that this applies to all of
mankind since the Reconciliation (Col
1:17-24). When I read
Be ever alert, it may happen
French Terrorism Alert
The AP and UPI report that the French Government announced yesterday that it
has raised its terror alert level from Run to Hide.
The only two higher levels in France are Surrender and Collaborate.
The raise was precipitated by a
Amen Terry ever the obedient son walking in blessing
and fleeing youthful lust. I know what you
mean as the alcohol
addiction is in my family also so I stay away from that and am thankful that
husband and children are not
involved with it. jt
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 12:38:52 -0500 Terry
Show me that I am speculating from the Bible
Lance... I want to see where the children of unbelievers are
holy
and acceptable to God in there. jt
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:28:27 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
How 'bout the children/hell thingy? Speculation of the first
'you shall die',
anyway--beer drinking is irrelevant, not a life or death issue except to the
God-manipulators
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:02:39 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
||
I stay away from that and am thankful that
husband and children are
not involved with it.
speculation,
thefulcrum ofmanipulation
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:07:27 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
..I want to see where the children of unbelievers are
holy
and acceptable to God in there. jt
On Fri, 22 Jul 2005 14:28:27 -0400 "Lance Muir" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
No the B-I-B-L-E Gary is not speculation.
Doctrines of men that give a false peace are
speculation - in which the deceiver is an
expert.
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:22:27 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
speculation,
thefulcrum ofmanipulation
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 14:07:27 -0400 Judy
DAVEH: His ordination of the apostles would suggest otherwise, Judy.
For what reason did he call and ordain the apostles if they were not to
stand in for Him? Did he not give them authority and then
command them to preach and baptize in his name?
Judith H Taylor wrote:
Dave, Jesus
In view of the fact that He has defeated Satan, and Satan's power (death), in view of the fact that He has "condemned sin in the flesh" (hasn't God always been pretty much against sin?) -- brother Ottoson's point is well stated. Talk about your basic profundity?! It is such because it is true!!!
Im still busy drying off.
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, July 22, 2005 7:20
PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John
16:13,14
I did not get BT's post, referenced
below. Linda,
Surely you are jesting, JD. iz
But I am disappointed that you put your family and wife
ahead of those of us who accept your leadership and advice. I will
deal wth it, somehow.but it complicates things a bit.
JD
You might want to consider His words recorded in Matthew 20:26-28, Dave.
"You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and those
that are great exercise authority over them. Yet it shall not be so
among you; but whoever desires to become great among you, let him be
your
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
'you
shall die', anyway--beer drinking is irrelevant, not a life or death
issue except to the God-manipulators
===
Beer drinking is only irrelevant as long as you remain sober. When you
drink
I would agree, David, if I knew any other way of talking to Jesus today
except through prayer. Sinner's prayer is just the wording I used to
express the fact that the person needs to confess and receive Jesus as Lord
and Savior. There is no template--it comes from the heart. It is just the
way
-Original Message-From: Judith H Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 10:31:14 -0400Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] John 16:13,14
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 09:15:53 -0400 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I believe that Philip 2:12-13 presents us with the
You are speaking for yourself.
iz
whileone
loves God, he is learning, simply, to have nothing to do with sin; however, as
we see, for mankind this is impossible
David, two weeks ago our church had an outdoor service where we baptized 193
souls. Every one of them confessed Christ as Lord and Savior when he/she
was baptized. When do you think they made Him Lord and Savior--while they
were standing in the water, or beforehand? izzy
-Original
Youve obviously never been married
to a drunk. iz
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 1:13
PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] Re:John
16:13,14
'you shall
die', anyway--beer
Judy wrote:
... I agree and this is why all three areas must be
cleansed of filthiness, sanctification extends to
the soul and spirit as well as the physical body.
But the point is that the spirit and soul can be swept clean, but the
physical body must be reckoned dead and is not swept clean
David Miller wrote:
But the point is that the spirit and soul can be
swept clean, but the physical body must be
reckoned dead and is not swept clean until the
resurrection. Do you see this?
I have other things calling my attention right now, but this did not come
across very well. What I
you project
this injt's 'B-I-B-L-E'the child of a beer drinker is
going to hell--apparently neither of you (God-manipulators)are searchg
for the truth
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:14:43 -0500 Terry Clifton
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
||
When you drink enough to get drunk, God is
angry
about ppl like
you
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:29:33 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
You are speaking for yourself.
iz
whileone
loves God, he is learning, simply, to have nothing to do with sin; however, as
we see, for mankind this is impossible
you
aren'tGod--you're a God-manipulator
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 15:57:10 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
Youve obviously
never been married to a drunk. iz
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent:
Blainerb: "I asked the Personages who stood above me in the
light, which of all the sects was right . . . the Personage who
addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in His sight; that
those professors were all corrupt; that they: draw near to me with their
lips, but
In a message dated 7/23/2005 12:08:57 A.M. Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
DAVEH: While it does make for an interesting sideshow, to me it
is rather disappointing. I had hoped that most non LDS Christians would
find more agreement in their beliefs. I'm not sure why I
Very good! I forwarded this to my fans.
Blainerb
In a message dated 7/23/2005 12:05:43 P.M. Mountain Standard Time,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Be ever alert, it may happen French Terrorism Alert
The AP and UPI report that the French Government announced
yesterday that ithas
Whered you pick up the big new
term, G? Is that going to replace myth for a while? Really cute.
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 5:17
PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk]
JSmith quoting the real Bible in his
collections of the commandments of JSmith.
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 5:45
PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] A
'prooftexter' vs a
You have fans? Are you a rock star, or
what Blainerb? iz
From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Saturday, July 23, 2005 5:57
PM
To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org
Subject: Re: [TruthTalk] [Fwd:
French Terrorism Alert]
Very
Judy, why are you answering posted comments to David?I already know and have rejected what you believe about Christ not being God Incarnate.I had somehow missed DM's point.
Jd-Original Message-From: Judith H Taylor jandgtaylor1@juno.comTo: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul
I have talked plenty about what we are saved from - OURSELVES.
God is already at work in us to will and to doHis good pleasure (Phil 2:13). Christ has ALREADY reconciled us to Himself (Col 1:19ff). The fact that this Colossian passage does not fit into your theology, written as it is, is no
Judy, the victory we walk in is Christ's victory over sin. All spiritual blessings are IN HIM. HE HAS OVERCOME THE WORLD.there is nothing else to do. Your teaching , logically, has no middle ground. Do you know this. Ditto for David. As soon as you argue that we must obey the commandments to
Note that even after being born againand receiving the Spirit of Christ, we have all these things abiding in our flesh. Whyaren't they alive? DM
Conjecture is not necessarily bad - just as long we admit that this is what we are doing.
JD-Original Message-From: Judith H Taylor
Total misnomer, noone manipulates God. He isn't
one to be conned or fooled with - and He doesn't make
deals. It's His way or the highway. Thank
You.
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:14:42 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
you project
this injt's 'B-I-B-L-E'the child of a beer drinker is
going
Sure it can . and does. It is the Col passage that says all thing have been reconciled. I am just quoting scripture. I can turn it down. I can refuse the "draw" of the Spirit if I prefer. Here is the problem, as I see it. He has reconciled us unto Himself. That is what the Book says. But it
LOL - esp the white flag factory thingy. -Original Message-From: Terry Clifton [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: TruthTalk@mail.innglory.org TruthTalk@mail.innglory.orgSent: Sat, 23 Jul 2005 13:05:23 -0500Subject: [TruthTalk] [Fwd: French Terrorism Alert]
Be ever alert, it may happen French
thehostility
toJC is noted--not unusual..'His way' isalways the fatality of your
way
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 22:13:02 -0400 Judy Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
It's His way or the
highway...
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 17:14:42 -0600 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
..injt's 'B-I-B-L-E'the
ftr, 'cute' is
purely speculative; the archives show uncontested the truth that such
speculation is the mother of all manipulation
On Sat, 23 Jul 2005 20:20:11 -0500 "ShieldsFamily" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
Whered you pick up
the big new term, G? Is that going to replace myth for
DAVEH: So what do you think the purpose was of Jesus choosing and
ordaining the apostles, Terry? Do you believe Jesus gave them any
authority?
Terry Clifton wrote:
You might want to consider His words recorded in Matthew 20:26-28, Dave.
"You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord
DAVEH: ??? So you are saying that Jesus came to divide the
Christians? Wouldn't it be more reasonable to think following Jesus
would cause a division between the Christians and non Christians
instead?
David Miller wrote:
DaveH wrote:
Except in the RCC, authority apparently has
DAVEH: Why did you change man to mankind, John? Is
the root word the same? I'm out of town, and don't have my reference
books, nor do I have time to look into it at the moment. But it sure
seems to me that there is a big difference between man and mankind.
If they were originally meant to be
Blainerb: Why do you not believe God can use his own words from
thescriptures to express his displeasure over a current
situation? Jesus often quoted the scriptures to the Jews to
makea point. In the book of Matthew, the writer (Matthew)
often does much the same thing. A departure from
Blainerb:Well not a rock star, exactly--butdidn't you
know I was a great trumpet player? Maybe my name was Gabe in the
pre-existence :)
Blainerb playing
hisLiberty Model KING trumpet, artist bore, made
DAVEH: It appears you also may have modeled for the Angel Moroni
statue used on many of the LDS Temples!
:-)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Blainerb:Well not a rock star, exactly--butdidn't you know I
was a great trumpet player? Maybe my name was Gabe in the
pre-existence :)
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