Re: [videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
Steve, Personally, I think Sony got the PSP aggregation wrong. They needed an automatic podcatcher. None of this downloading and watching one video at a time. You have to be able to automatically cache the videos without any attention. You shouldn't have to download or browse heavily on the device. You shouldn't have to manage subscriptions. You shouldn't have to browse a directory for videos. You should just be able to pick up the device, scroll through the latest videos from your friends, most recent first, and click play. Think blackberry, only not email, video blog posts. And not private, but public. Could be entertainment or news yes, but it's not TV, it might just as well be a video from a friend's vlog. Anyway, I'm rambling, but the Nokia N93 and N95 might well accomplish this. Maybe. Peace, -Mike mefeedia.com mmeiser.com/blog On 12/1/06, Steve Watkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was wondering how the Podcamp West Community Imperialism discussion went? Is there any record of it on the internets? Is there somewhere that the discussion is continuing? Is there a good place that I can go to watch the slow march of some DIYers towards DRM love? Are youtubers having 'video conversations' much these days, ie responding to a video with a video of their own rather than text comments? Is there anything built into the system, or any other system, that makes this sort of thing easy, easy to follow the conversation? Yes Im ranting about a video-based discussion board type system again, I dont know why, I never get many responses, but that still doesnt put me off the idea of combining vlogging with forums and realtime video conferencing and getting a strange hybrid. Is it an idea doomed to fail, oh I dunno. Why am I talking about this now? BEcause this imperialism stuff is something Id like to have a video conversation with, but without realtime pressures. And nearly every other area of video and the net seems to have moved on in leaps and bounds in the last 2 years, wheras this doesnt seem to of. So Im thinking of spending my Christmas holiday developing some crude system as a proof-of-concept, but I dont know if anybody woould actually use it. Will I be wasting my time? It was the insane films coverage of vlogeurope what reminded me of your Cultural Imperialism thoughts, and I wanted to join in those conversations, but I missed the even totally. But why should time space be a barrier? And Madge was on about combining time space data with video, which made me want to mashup vlogging and the video discussion system idea with google maps and this timeline thing: http://simile.mit.edu/timeline/ Well theres the random thoughts in my brain today about this stuff, who knows if Im making any sense. Potential or poop? By the way Eric do you still have anything to do with Sony PSP? I see there is a camera out for it now, that can do video but only 20 second clips? (or did I get that wrong?). The PSP was always an example to me of one of the 'under-represented' devices in the vlogosphere, in that there are a lot of people with PSPs, but they arent well represented here, so it sometimes appears that they dont exist. Cheers Steve Elbows with the friday afternoon waffle --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Eric Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As an aside, Mike, the other reason I'm finding the community imperialism angle so fascinating, is because I'm timing how slowly a very very VERY important chain of events regarding intellectual property, DMCA-friendly and DRM-wanting folks (and it's DIY people, not the Big Boys) is barely working its way through the usual blogosphere channels--- the most visible and vocal suspects against who'd normally speak up about such a thing don't seem to be aware because it originates in a place outside the comfort zone. We can start a new thread on that one, but I'm too tired. Heh. ER --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Mike Meiser groups-yahoo-com@ wrote: On 11/17/06, Eric Rice eric@ wrote: I think the term that might be more accurately reflective is 'cultural imperialism', but community was substituted in light of the thinking that we view ourselves as a community more than a culture in most cases? I also adore how inflammatory Imperialism is as a word, but go 10,000 m with your reading, not so much a direct literal interpretation. Great word Eric. Cultural imperialism is exactly what it is. I've had a long standing theory one exactly what cultural imperialism is. Basically in a world with limited means for communication, where the major forms of communication that shape our society, our culture and indeed the world, are a commodity such as is clearly the case most obviously with television there is a draw toward the center... the creation of a popular culture as these systems fundamentally lack the capacity
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
On 12/1/06, Steve Watkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] steve%40dvmachine.com wrote: Are youtubers having 'video conversations' much these days, ie responding to a video with a video of their own rather than text comments? Is there anything built into the system, or any other system, that makes this sort of thing easy, easy to follow the conversation? Very much so, and not really. There is a real culture of response videos on YouTube, much of which only makes sense in context. At the same time, it doesn't organize itself into any neat and tidy forum/folder structure. I'm sure, however, it would make a very interesting three dimenasional map, if you had the kind of Bond villain technology that lends itself to that sort of thing. Mark Day www.myspace.com/markday www.youtube.com/markdaycomedy http://markdaycomedy.blip.tv etc. etc. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
I was wondering how the Podcamp West Community Imperialism discussion went? Is there any record of it on the internets? Is there somewhere that the discussion is continuing? Is there a good place that I can go to watch the slow march of some DIYers towards DRM love? Are youtubers having 'video conversations' much these days, ie responding to a video with a video of their own rather than text comments? Is there anything built into the system, or any other system, that makes this sort of thing easy, easy to follow the conversation? Yes Im ranting about a video-based discussion board type system again, I dont know why, I never get many responses, but that still doesnt put me off the idea of combining vlogging with forums and realtime video conferencing and getting a strange hybrid. Is it an idea doomed to fail, oh I dunno. Why am I talking about this now? BEcause this imperialism stuff is something Id like to have a video conversation with, but without realtime pressures. And nearly every other area of video and the net seems to have moved on in leaps and bounds in the last 2 years, wheras this doesnt seem to of. So Im thinking of spending my Christmas holiday developing some crude system as a proof-of-concept, but I dont know if anybody woould actually use it. Will I be wasting my time? It was the insane films coverage of vlogeurope what reminded me of your Cultural Imperialism thoughts, and I wanted to join in those conversations, but I missed the even totally. But why should time space be a barrier? And Madge was on about combining time space data with video, which made me want to mashup vlogging and the video discussion system idea with google maps and this timeline thing: http://simile.mit.edu/timeline/ Well theres the random thoughts in my brain today about this stuff, who knows if Im making any sense. Potential or poop? By the way Eric do you still have anything to do with Sony PSP? I see there is a camera out for it now, that can do video but only 20 second clips? (or did I get that wrong?). The PSP was always an example to me of one of the 'under-represented' devices in the vlogosphere, in that there are a lot of people with PSPs, but they arent well represented here, so it sometimes appears that they dont exist. Cheers Steve Elbows with the friday afternoon waffle --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Eric Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As an aside, Mike, the other reason I'm finding the community imperialism angle so fascinating, is because I'm timing how slowly a very very VERY important chain of events regarding intellectual property, DMCA-friendly and DRM-wanting folks (and it's DIY people, not the Big Boys) is barely working its way through the usual blogosphere channels--- the most visible and vocal suspects against who'd normally speak up about such a thing don't seem to be aware because it originates in a place outside the comfort zone. We can start a new thread on that one, but I'm too tired. Heh. ER --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Mike Meiser groups-yahoo-com@ wrote: On 11/17/06, Eric Rice eric@ wrote: I think the term that might be more accurately reflective is 'cultural imperialism', but community was substituted in light of the thinking that we view ourselves as a community more than a culture in most cases? I also adore how inflammatory Imperialism is as a word, but go 10,000 m with your reading, not so much a direct literal interpretation. Great word Eric. Cultural imperialism is exactly what it is. I've had a long standing theory one exactly what cultural imperialism is. Basically in a world with limited means for communication, where the major forms of communication that shape our society, our culture and indeed the world, are a commodity such as is clearly the case most obviously with television there is a draw toward the center... the creation of a popular culture as these systems fundamentally lack the capacity for the wide depth and breadth of societal and cultural viewpoints. Call it cultural hegemony if you will. I would go on to theorize that the internet has caused a HUGE growth in capacity for diverse communications, and that as it becomes the dominant medium for global communications this radical increase in capacity changes the game entirely. The problem is that businesses like still function as if in a world where capacity was a fundamental commodity. Because of this they build vertically integrated businesses instead of thinking horizontally. The exeption to this has been the search engines. Google probably being the best example. Technoratti being another. (Mefeedia.com still another) Instead of trying to take a traditional vertical slice of the marketplace like say a newspaper or a magaine or a TV station would... these horizontal thinkers thought of taking a horizontal slice. Technoratti's being the entire
Re: [videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
Sull: I think the source of your problem is that you don't understand the meaning of the words videoblogger, videoblogging, and videoblog. Let me clarify these terms for you, based on what I've learned from reading this list: VIDEOBLOGGER: One who belongs to the videoblogging group hosted at Yahoo Groups. VIDEOBLOGGING: That activity engaged in by videobloggers. VIDEOBLOG: The end result of videoblogging. So the fundamental problem is that there's all these people on YouTube who clearly aren't videobloggers (by definition), yet they engage in an activity which looks suspiciously like videoblogging. The debate is over what to do about it, Should we (a) reach out to these people, invite them to join the videoblogging group, and thereby turn them into videobloggers; or (b) make sure people understand that--all appearances to the contrary notwithstanding-- those people aren't videobloggers but something else. Youtubers maybe. It is a debate I expect to see continue for quite some time. -Peter On Nov 18, 2006, at 9:07 PM, sull wrote: I just finished reading this thread with a sorta confused look on my face for most of it And it fitting that the last message here by Charles Hope jives with how I feel. This seems to be a case of over-analyzing a specific perspective of communities who are using video to socialize, create, inform, entertain, insult, inspire etcetera. As for the video. yeah its a good job making a montage of some notable clips and clips that kind of express whats going on at YouTube. Add the sad sounding violin and piano and booya Change the soundtrack to some thrash metal... and you have something entirely different. But whatever. its a good video and thanks for sharing it here, eric.
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
Id like to see an example of any post by anybody here that has ever suggested that you are only a videoblogger if you are in this yahoo group. Whether you have ever read or posted to this group has absolutely nothing to do with whether the videoblogger label is deemed to fit you or not. And I cant actually recall people on this list suggesting otherwise, at any time. I think its a myth that there are really any people who take this group so seriously as to think it is a factor in the wider scheme of things. Sure internet groups may attact the attention of people who are hypersensitive about the possibility of 'insider groups', 'cliquey cool gangs', 'gaurdians of the guild', forming and claiming somethign as their own, but I really dont think it much of an issue in reality. Now if groups such as this have the ears of those who put on awards shows, design products, blog about things, provide video services on the net, etc etc, then of course the opinions of a few can have undue influence. But in the grand scheme of things I like to think that any distoritons like that are soon corrected, by the sheer force of the numbers of people out there in the wider reality, actually using the stuff (or not), far beyond the bubble here. Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Peter Leppik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sull: I think the source of your problem is that you don't understand the meaning of the words videoblogger, videoblogging, and videoblog. Let me clarify these terms for you, based on what I've learned from reading this list: VIDEOBLOGGER: One who belongs to the videoblogging group hosted at Yahoo Groups. VIDEOBLOGGING: That activity engaged in by videobloggers. VIDEOBLOG: The end result of videoblogging. So the fundamental problem is that there's all these people on YouTube who clearly aren't videobloggers (by definition), yet they engage in an activity which looks suspiciously like videoblogging. The debate is over what to do about it, Should we (a) reach out to these people, invite them to join the videoblogging group, and thereby turn them into videobloggers; or (b) make sure people understand that--all appearances to the contrary notwithstanding-- those people aren't videobloggers but something else. Youtubers maybe. It is a debate I expect to see continue for quite some time. -Peter On Nov 18, 2006, at 9:07 PM, sull wrote: I just finished reading this thread with a sorta confused look on my face for most of it And it fitting that the last message here by Charles Hope jives with how I feel. This seems to be a case of over-analyzing a specific perspective of communities who are using video to socialize, create, inform, entertain, insult, inspire etcetera. As for the video. yeah its a good job making a montage of some notable clips and clips that kind of express whats going on at YouTube. Add the sad sounding violin and piano and booya Change the soundtrack to some thrash metal... and you have something entirely different. But whatever. its a good video and thanks for sharing it here, eric.
Re: [videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
Peter, VIDEOBLOGGER: One who belongs to the videoblogging group hosted at Yahoo Groups. Tell me you are kidding. Trust me, I know what I know to be true ;) sull On 11/19/06, Peter Leppik [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sull: I think the source of your problem is that you don't understand the meaning of the words videoblogger, videoblogging, and videoblog. Let me clarify these terms for you, based on what I've learned from reading this list: VIDEOBLOGGER: One who belongs to the videoblogging group hosted at Yahoo Groups. VIDEOBLOGGING: That activity engaged in by videobloggers. VIDEOBLOG: The end result of videoblogging. So the fundamental problem is that there's all these people on YouTube who clearly aren't videobloggers (by definition), yet they engage in an activity which looks suspiciously like videoblogging. The debate is over what to do about it, Should we (a) reach out to these people, invite them to join the videoblogging group, and thereby turn them into videobloggers; or (b) make sure people understand that--all appearances to the contrary notwithstanding-- those people aren't videobloggers but something else. Youtubers maybe. It is a debate I expect to see continue for quite some time. -Peter On Nov 18, 2006, at 9:07 PM, sull wrote: I just finished reading this thread with a sorta confused look on my face for most of it And it fitting that the last message here by Charles Hope jives with how I feel. This seems to be a case of over-analyzing a specific perspective of communities who are using video to socialize, create, inform, entertain, insult, inspire etcetera. As for the video. yeah its a good job making a montage of some notable clips and clips that kind of express whats going on at YouTube. Add the sad sounding violin and piano and booya Change the soundtrack to some thrash metal... and you have something entirely different. But whatever. its a good video and thanks for sharing it here, eric. -- Sull http://vlogdir.com (a project) http://SpreadTheMedia.org (my blog) http://interdigitate.com (otherly) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
Of course I'm kidding, but a martian reading this group for the first time would think that we're inordinately concerned about what videoblogging is, who qualifies as a videoblogger (as opposed to, say, mainstream media posted online), and what it all means in the grand scheme of things. Me, I just like to play around with my camcorder and Final Cut, and maybe sometimes I wind up with something my mother might be interested in watching. -Peter On Nov 19, 2006, at 8:15 AM, sull wrote: Peter, VIDEOBLOGGER: One who belongs to the videoblogging group hosted at Yahoo Groups. Tell me you are kidding. Trust me, I know what I know to be true ;) sull
Re: [videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
On 11/17/06, Adam Quirk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/17/06, Steve Watkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And for all my love of video, Ive always been to shy to say any of these sorts of things in video, too self-concious to even have a personal text-blog, so I spew the words here on this sort of group,a nd its probably a mismatch, but somehow I find safety in numbers (of people). I have a hard time with that too, can't talk straight into the camera so I have to find alternate routes. Your words are always welcome and insightful. Especially that previous post you just made about Youtube helping with loneliness. If it can help somebody feel less alone, that's a pretty big fucking deal. I'm a recent convert. Long live the Youtubers (but not necessarily Youtube). Well said Adam! And Steve, you pretty much describe me too. It's no secrete that I'm ironicly not very interested in shooting my own life an putting it online... or for that matter even a fan of editing and playing with video. Very ironic, but by no means a contradiction at all. I love art in all it's many forms and in this culture is tremendously avanteguard explorations of media. I also love design and information architecture, media and media theory and sociology, and culture. Which is to say, I love how design, info arch, and changes in media can change culture and society. Videoblogging is the binding element to all these interests. -Mike AQ thepan.org (was broken but now is fixed, sorta) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
Is it just me or are their some urls missing in the email from scoble? BTW, We have a complete guide to the 2006 vloggies winners on mefeedia also. http://mefeedia.com/lists/46/ It includes direct links to the vlogs and their feeds for your convenience. There was no officially published list though, so let me know if there are any errors or omissions. Peace, -Mike On 11/18/06, Robert Scoble [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Our main Vloggies page is an abortion. If it weren't for Google I wouldn't have been able to find it either. But, there is a link there. Heheh. We just hired a designer away from Yahoo, so hopefully this improves. Either way, I just will cover it on my blog and you'll all find it anyway, right? Heheh. Robert _ From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Cammack Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 10:25 PM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community Oh. I see. :) Good coverage, too. I've never seen that because I didn't see a link to that page from the main page. Thanks. --- In videoblogging@ mailto:videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com, Robert Scoble [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now that you mention The Vloggies, how come http://vloggiessf. http://vloggiessf. http://vloggiessf.com com com was never updated with A) the winners, and B) any coverage of the event, whatsoever? The coverage and winners' list was on the Vloggie blog: http://vloggies. http://vloggies.wordpress.com/ wordpress.com/ But, we could have done a better job. It's just that the blogosphere covered it so well that we just didn't think to come on afterward and cover it. Robert Scoble ### [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
On 11/17/06, Eric Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the term that might be more accurately reflective is 'cultural imperialism', but community was substituted in light of the thinking that we view ourselves as a community more than a culture in most cases? I also adore how inflammatory Imperialism is as a word, but go 10,000 m with your reading, not so much a direct literal interpretation. Great word Eric. Cultural imperialism is exactly what it is. I've had a long standing theory one exactly what cultural imperialism is. Basically in a world with limited means for communication, where the major forms of communication that shape our society, our culture and indeed the world, are a commodity such as is clearly the case most obviously with television there is a draw toward the center... the creation of a popular culture as these systems fundamentally lack the capacity for the wide depth and breadth of societal and cultural viewpoints. Call it cultural hegemony if you will. I would go on to theorize that the internet has caused a HUGE growth in capacity for diverse communications, and that as it becomes the dominant medium for global communications this radical increase in capacity changes the game entirely. The problem is that businesses like still function as if in a world where capacity was a fundamental commodity. Because of this they build vertically integrated businesses instead of thinking horizontally. The exeption to this has been the search engines. Google probably being the best example. Technoratti being another. (Mefeedia.com still another) Instead of trying to take a traditional vertical slice of the marketplace like say a newspaper or a magaine or a TV station would... these horizontal thinkers thought of taking a horizontal slice. Technoratti's being the entire blogosphere. Oh, lastly, we did not choose to be inoperable with youtube. It is youtube who chose to be inoperable with us. I just wanted to make this clear. Oh, and one more thing, Youtube is slowly coming out to play. There are thousands of youtube feeds and youtube users on mefeedia now. -Mike mefeedia.com mmeiser.com/blog ER --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Steve Watkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You got me looking at the word Imperial and what it actually means. It really applies to countries, but tracing the term back further I guess you are basically meaning human power, the way people get it, and the effect it has on others, those without power? If so, I find it interesting that people gaining power does not necessarily say anything about their moticves or how much good they are doing. Someone who is doing stuff to help others, whether it be doing workshops, books, whatever, is likely to gain personally on a number of levels, including power. Whether the power goes on to corrupt them in some way, whether they are uncomfortable with the power and seek to diminish it, or not use it, that comes down to chance and genetics as much as ideology and anything else. Id love to know more about what you are meaning, and how you think things could be any different, given that we work with the human nature we've got, not the nature we much yearn for. When it comes to video communties, Ive always been interested in whether text forum concepts could be merged with video, but with a new angle that avoids clumsiness, sort of a cross between forums, instant cha, mailing lists, blog vlogs, youtube clips and live internet chat. almost like an equivalent of mobile text messaging but with video between larger groups. Thats where Id hope to see something resembling the idea of 'community'. I also love show type vlogs but I dont expect it to satisfy the human social itch in as broad and 'community' a sense. Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Eric Rice eric@ wrote: This weekend at PodCamp West, I'm part of a discussion about Community Imperialism in DIY Media, because frankly, I believe the state of 'communities' is crap. It's been a rough week, seeing everyday people invoking the DMCA, requesting DRM to protect content; open source getting attacked; watching the word 'community' get thrown around when it means 'our silo'. And then I saw this. A 10 minute video that damn near had me in tears. Do you consider them videobloggers? I do. And since they aren't aware of THIS community, I will completely step outside any jurisdiction and award them all a Vloggie Award. They deserve it, too. http://www.ericrice.com/blog/?p=208 ER Yahoo! Groups Links
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
Well that's one question I hope to find answers to at Podcamp--- cuz this isn't a videoblogging issue, it's blogging, podcasting, SL, the whole nine yards. There are many communities, agreed, it's when we think ours is the One True God (stealing from Elizabethan times)--that's what I'm looking at, and hopefully we might be able to answer in wider conversation. I think the term is more of a cute, overused word than a substantive one in a LOT of cases. To keep it on target with vlogging, there have been plenty of conversations that go, 'Well the videoblog community says...' when the context of the conversation is 'well the *yahoo group* videoblogging community says..' Not so much a semantic picking apart of 'a' versus 'the'... it's implied and behavioral perhaps? (YouTube is an example of how actions of many gave the finger to the beleifs of a few-- WE WANT RSS SO WE CAN TAKE IT WITH US and then the world is perfectly OK with uploading to Youtube you have to sit in front of a computer instead of taking it with you (hacks aside, that's the basic gist) Still fascinated tho, with the Youtubers called them 'blogs'. That's gotta piss off plenty for some idealistic reasons heh. ER --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Bill Cammack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Eric Rice eric@ wrote: Blogosphere for example, term supposed to mean 'bloggers everywhere' /me dances through meadow. Possible reality: Blogosphere = Blogger/Tech Blogosphere Podcast Listeners should be ALL Possible reality: Podcast Listeners = Other podcasters who listen (i think user conferences when most of the people aren't plain users, but creator-users, ie., us. Again. Do your myspace readers and listeners and viewers show up at these things? Uhm, thinkin' 'no' ? Videoblog Community should be ALL including YouTubers, MySpacers, people who might not be aware of DV, RSS, etc Possible reality: Videoblog Community = This Yahoo Group (The Vloggies jumps right out at me one this one) Now that you mention The Vloggies, how come http://vloggiessf.com was never updated with A) the winners, and B) any coverage of the event, whatsoever? I think all of the points that you make are very good ones and valid ones. What are you suggesting, though? Do you have a solution to this? Are you looking for a solution, or only trying to spark awareness with this thread? In any situation, you're going to have groups or communities or cliques or 'the elite'. While I agree, in essence, with what you seem to be saying, which is that people with zero technical videomaking skills or who only videoblog from their bedrooms on their webcams are looked over when it comes to being recognized as 'actual' videobloggers or 'serious' videobloggers, lines are always going to be drawn. There are people on YouTube that aren't aware of people on MySpace. There are people on Match.com that aren't aware of people on Yahoo Personals. There are people on Revver that aren't aware of people on Brightcove... More 'communities' are created every day, leading to more people being involved in general, but less awareness by one particular community about the overall population. In the USA, we have football. If you're good at football as a kid, you might get to play on the HS team. After that, you might get to play college ball. You might make it after that to the NFL. If you make it to the Super Bowl in the NFL, you might be crowned WORLD CHAMPION of football. The best in the entire world! :D Did you compete against everyone in the entire world? no. Did you compete against football players in China? no. The NFL exists in the USA. There's the CFL! :) Why don't they have the NFL champions play against the CFL champions? Then against the Brazilian football champions? :D On that note, we're the only ones that call football football. Everyone else calls 'soccer' football. Until there's a way to include everyone in the world in something, there are going to be groups that take liberties and call themselves the best in the world at what they do. Most of the time, anyone else would be hard-pressed to prove them wrong. :) In the case of video on the net or whatever one cares to call it, there are different styles and motivations for each group of videos. There are people that tell their life stories to the webcam in their bedroom. There are people that report about what someone else did. There are people that go out and do things and videotape them. There are people that do their videos in one take and others that script and create props and act in and edit their videos. Categories are necessary in order to avoid comparing apples and oranges. You don't want to compare Galacticast to Beachwalks.TV, because they
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
--- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Mike Meiser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem is youtube still perpetuates the idea that it's all just a big popularity contest. This promotes the idea that it is all about viral video, funny videos, and other 'entertainment' hiding the true identity of this beast which is it's more akin to email, IM, the telephone... it's just personal communication that just so happens to be public. in fact architecturally and functionally speaking it's closest relative is this very yahoo group, but media rich. Hollld the phone. Ever see how apeshit podcasters go over rankings, votes, and *those* award ceremonies? And also, we *did* have an awards ceremony, that had minimal public drama, but lots of backchannel drama. That opens up a can of worms that's opened every quarter, but naturally, the moderate belief is yeah you can do personal stuff, and you can do populist rockstar stuff, too. Let's just not lie to ourselves that we don't do it either (not meaning individually-- honestly I don't care about being #1 until well, heh, I'm #1...) :-) ER
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
--- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Robert Scoble [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Either way, I just will cover it on my blog and you'll all find it anyway, right? Heheh. Yeah all my mySpace homies read Scobleizer, ohhh wait, THE blogosphere. xD See the accidental pattern (yeah I got it was in jest). Condensing fact from the vapor of nuance. - had to be said. ER
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
As an aside, Mike, the other reason I'm finding the community imperialism angle so fascinating, is because I'm timing how slowly a very very VERY important chain of events regarding intellectual property, DMCA-friendly and DRM-wanting folks (and it's DIY people, not the Big Boys) is barely working its way through the usual blogosphere channels--- the most visible and vocal suspects against who'd normally speak up about such a thing don't seem to be aware because it originates in a place outside the comfort zone. We can start a new thread on that one, but I'm too tired. Heh. ER --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Mike Meiser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 11/17/06, Eric Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think the term that might be more accurately reflective is 'cultural imperialism', but community was substituted in light of the thinking that we view ourselves as a community more than a culture in most cases? I also adore how inflammatory Imperialism is as a word, but go 10,000 m with your reading, not so much a direct literal interpretation. Great word Eric. Cultural imperialism is exactly what it is. I've had a long standing theory one exactly what cultural imperialism is. Basically in a world with limited means for communication, where the major forms of communication that shape our society, our culture and indeed the world, are a commodity such as is clearly the case most obviously with television there is a draw toward the center... the creation of a popular culture as these systems fundamentally lack the capacity for the wide depth and breadth of societal and cultural viewpoints. Call it cultural hegemony if you will. I would go on to theorize that the internet has caused a HUGE growth in capacity for diverse communications, and that as it becomes the dominant medium for global communications this radical increase in capacity changes the game entirely. The problem is that businesses like still function as if in a world where capacity was a fundamental commodity. Because of this they build vertically integrated businesses instead of thinking horizontally. The exeption to this has been the search engines. Google probably being the best example. Technoratti being another. (Mefeedia.com still another) Instead of trying to take a traditional vertical slice of the marketplace like say a newspaper or a magaine or a TV station would... these horizontal thinkers thought of taking a horizontal slice. Technoratti's being the entire blogosphere. Oh, lastly, we did not choose to be inoperable with youtube. It is youtube who chose to be inoperable with us. I just wanted to make this clear. Oh, and one more thing, Youtube is slowly coming out to play. There are thousands of youtube feeds and youtube users on mefeedia now. -Mike mefeedia.com mmeiser.com/blog ER --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Steve Watkins steve@ wrote: You got me looking at the word Imperial and what it actually means. It really applies to countries, but tracing the term back further I guess you are basically meaning human power, the way people get it, and the effect it has on others, those without power? If so, I find it interesting that people gaining power does not necessarily say anything about their moticves or how much good they are doing. Someone who is doing stuff to help others, whether it be doing workshops, books, whatever, is likely to gain personally on a number of levels, including power. Whether the power goes on to corrupt them in some way, whether they are uncomfortable with the power and seek to diminish it, or not use it, that comes down to chance and genetics as much as ideology and anything else. Id love to know more about what you are meaning, and how you think things could be any different, given that we work with the human nature we've got, not the nature we much yearn for. When it comes to video communties, Ive always been interested in whether text forum concepts could be merged with video, but with a new angle that avoids clumsiness, sort of a cross between forums, instant cha, mailing lists, blog vlogs, youtube clips and live internet chat. almost like an equivalent of mobile text messaging but with video between larger groups. Thats where Id hope to see something resembling the idea of 'community'. I also love show type vlogs but I dont expect it to satisfy the human social itch in as broad and 'community' a sense. Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Eric Rice eric@ wrote: This weekend at PodCamp West, I'm part of a discussion about Community Imperialism in DIY Media, because frankly, I believe the state of 'communities' is crap. It's been a rough week, seeing everyday people invoking the DMCA, requesting DRM to protect content; open source getting attacked; watching the word
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
Or 'theirtube' if you follow the reasoning of '[YouTube] chose to be inoperable with us' Gotta disagree with Mike's choice of words there and use that as a prime example... who died and made us gods of what works or what doesn't? If we're the gods then I want a cape dammit. :-) ER --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Ted Tagami [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike when you said: ...the true identity of this beast... (is)... more akin to email, IM, the telephone... it's just personal communication that just so happens to be public. in fact architecturally and functionally speaking it's closest relative is this very yahoo group, but media rich. I thought: ourtube On 11/17/06, Mike Meiser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: comments below On 11/17/06, Jay dedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] jay.dedman%40gmail.com wrote: And then I saw this. A 10 minute video that damn near had me in tears. Do you consider them videobloggers? I do. And since they aren't aware of THIS community, I will completely step outside any jurisdiction and award them all a Vloggie Award. They deserve it, too. http://www.ericrice.com/blog/?p=208 Someone else emailed this link last week as Josh Leo said...it really reminds me of the Videoblogging group's first year when we were really just making videos to talk to each other. I remember that journalists would denigrate us becasue we talked about the act of videoblogging..and seemed to just be talking to each other. I really hope the Youtube crowd reaches outside their Youtube community. this again is my only problem with these social networks. yes, they encourage a lot of internal communicationbut it usually stays within that group. Precisely. The very nature of these social networks... these communities to kick the term some more as eric rice I think was implying. Is that this is about inter-personal communication. As such these services are to a large degree NOT interoperable. They're like having a telephone that only works on network a, but not on any other phone network. They betray the very nature of the end to end principal of the network. That said to the degree they use RSS and downloadable files is to the extent they become more interoperable. The ability to aggregate media from my friends regardless of what service they're on is extremely important to me. I cannot be required to go visit 18 different media sharing / social networking sites to keep up with my friends. THis is the very idea of RSS. The media from our friends no matter where they are in the world or what webservice on has to come to US. I see many people in the Videoblogging group evolving in their content...and taking on more ambitous, well-organized projects. I wonder how long it'll take for the YouTube crowd to evolve past the hi, here i am phase. I think in many cases some have. The problem is youtube still perpetuates the idea that it's all just a big popularity contest. This promotes the idea that it is all about viral video, funny videos, and other 'entertainment' hiding the true identity of this beast which is it's more akin to email, IM, the telephone... it's just personal communication that just so happens to be public. in fact architecturally and functionally speaking it's closest relative is this very yahoo group, but media rich. this is exactly what we always wanted. its only been about 20 months. By it do you mean youtube? If so... yeah... this is the sort of personal communication I've always thought vlogging would be... I love it... HOWEVER... I think youtube because it's so inoperable is as dangerous a beast as mp3.com. I think sooner or later because of the vast amount paid for youtube, and the type of deals google is making to turn it into a tool for advertising to the masses... instead of for mass communications... and finally because they're playing for keeps discouraging interoperability through RSS with devices like ipod... or the PSP, or the next gen of cell phones and media players or ANY device besides youtube. Youtube offers non of this, nor ironicly does it offer any mechanisms for anyone to profit from their videos... which is why ironicly the biggest, brightest, and most popular entertainment videoblogs aren't on youtube. I've come to terms a long time ago with what youtube is and isn't. It's not evil. It's just the same old business plan reappropriated again and again. Just let me know when I can can subscribe to all my youtube friends on my portable media player or television right alongside all my other friends. Maybe then I'll stop not liking yourtube. -Mike mefeedia.com mmeiser.com/blog jay -- Me http://www.momentshowing.net My Book http://tinyurl.com/e6cap SF community http://RyanIsHungry.com Community
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
How about adding some non-tech concepts there, such as, how and why to make media for portable devices. The Verizon (icky)/Google deal might technically misunderstand certain things, but the flip side is the consumer going 'WOW videos on mah phonez! wt' Do they give a rat's butt about standards? They want to watch video. We're looking at ourselves again. Maybe if you're a technologist, it's fine, yet kinda iffy if you're a make- media evangelist. ER --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Mike Meiser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1) to promote RSS as an open standard for the direct aggregation of media to network connected (ie. wifi) portable media players, cell phones, set top boxes and other things 'beyond the desktop 2) that this direct aggregation of media to these devices will enhance their value as tools of communication just like the Blackberry enhanced the value of email as a tool for communications as it become damn near realtime and you didn't need to be sitting in front of your computer anymore to get it. It came directly to you wherever you were. This is why I believe the gootube/verizon deal fundamentally misunderstands the nature of videoblogging. Without a widespread and interoperable subscription network there is no videoblogging. Just like blogging the value is in anyone being able to subscribe to or connect with anyone else... not JUST youtube users. Peace, -Mike mefeedia.com mmeiser.com/blog On 11/17/06, Mike Meiser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: comments below On 11/17/06, Jay dedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] jay.dedman%40gmail.com wrote: And then I saw this. A 10 minute video that damn near had me in tears. Do you consider them videobloggers? I do. And since they aren't aware of THIS community, I will completely step outside any jurisdiction and award them all a Vloggie Award. They deserve it, too. http://www.ericrice.com/blog/?p=208 Someone else emailed this link last week as Josh Leo said...it really reminds me of the Videoblogging group's first year when we were really just making videos to talk to each other. I remember that journalists would denigrate us becasue we talked about the act of videoblogging..and seemed to just be talking to each other. I really hope the Youtube crowd reaches outside their Youtube community. this again is my only problem with these social networks. yes, they encourage a lot of internal communicationbut it usually stays within that group. Precisely. The very nature of these social networks... these communities to kick the term some more as eric rice I think was implying. Is that this is about inter-personal communication. As such these services are to a large degree NOT interoperable. They're like having a telephone that only works on network a, but not on any other phone network. They betray the very nature of the end to end principal of the network. That said to the degree they use RSS and downloadable files is to the extent they become more interoperable. The ability to aggregate media from my friends regardless of what service they're on is extremely important to me. I cannot be required to go visit 18 different media sharing / social networking sites to keep up with my friends. THis is the very idea of RSS. The media from our friends no matter where they are in the world or what webservice on has to come to US. I see many people in the Videoblogging group evolving in their content...and taking on more ambitous, well-organized projects. I wonder how long it'll take for the YouTube crowd to evolve past the hi, here i am phase. I think in many cases some have. The problem is youtube still perpetuates the idea that it's all just a big popularity contest. This promotes the idea that it is all about viral video, funny videos, and other 'entertainment' hiding the true identity of this beast which is it's more akin to email, IM, the telephone... it's just personal communication that just so happens to be public. in fact architecturally and functionally speaking it's closest relative is this very yahoo group, but media rich. this is exactly what we always wanted. its only been about 20 months. By it do you mean youtube? If so... yeah... this is the sort of personal communication I've always thought vlogging would be... I love it... HOWEVER... I think youtube because it's so inoperable is as dangerous a beast as mp3.com. I think sooner or later because of the vast amount paid for youtube, and the type of deals google is making to turn it into a tool for advertising to the masses... instead of for mass communications... and finally because they're playing for keeps discouraging interoperability through RSS with devices like ipod... or the PSP, or the next gen of cell
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
Mike, did you watch the YouTube video I posted? If so, did you hear what they were saying? See what they were doing? ER --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Heh, one more though about community equalling walled garden. I just wanted to clarify. First there are non-walled garden communities. Communities whom NOONE owns, and whom exist outside of some wenservice. What we're talking about is the independant blogosphere. Within it are thousands of malleable communities whose borders are defined only by those who participate in them. I just wanted to clarify, this is why most of us hate youtube. You can't have freiends on youtube without belonging to youtube because youtube is not interoperable with the blogosphere. That said it IS getting there... a little bit. For example. They DO have some RSS spport, they just don't promote it very well. http://youtube.com/rssls This means you can subscribe to youtube feeds in mefeedia, bloglines, or any number of aggregators. Even Democracy player now has support for youtube's RSS feeds. For example, here's the very feed we've been talking about on mefeedia. http://mefeedia.com/feeds/21683/ And the very video http://mefeedia.com/entry/1352733/ So what's the problem then? Fracking Flash... that's the problem. Youtube is using it as a light weight DRM to discourage people from enjoying the videos how they see fit... ie. not ON youtube.com. I cannot view these videos offline... because they can't be downloaded easily without some fancy schmancy tricks. I cannot view them on my iPod, PSP or any other device... again, without some fancy schmancy tricks. I cannot subscribe to them in itunes or fireant In short... any of my friends on youtube... I cannot access them the way I'd access all of you. It's the equivelent of having one phone that works with the rest of the world, and having to have a second separate phone to talk to my friends on youtube. So... yeah, youtube's not evil... and I love youtube users... but have tremendous resentment for some global megacorp telling me who I can be friends with and how I can interact with them. Clearly youtube is using it's domimant market position to leverage themselves. Which is to say... they're using their market power combined with thier inoperability to curry special favors for themselves. The gootube/verizon deal was an example of this. And of the gootube verizon deal I say... what useless piece of crap deal is that that only brings me a tiny fraction of the videoblogging world. What good is it to be able to talk to jimmy on the phone but not suzie. Why can I access videos from youtube and not videos from rocketboom, ask a ninja, and 20,000 other of my favorite vlogs and friends. I don't think kindly of anyone whom makes decisions to fragment the market to everyone's detriment to make a few bucks. But then... it's quite possible that neither gootube or verizon think they doing anything wrong at all... because I seriously think they don't get it. I think they think internet video is all just entertainment... that it's just a the new cable network... that they can substitute jimmy's videos for suzzies like they substitute Fox news for NBC news or Lost for the Sipranos. But this is NOT the case. Because Suzzie and Jimmy aren't general news... and they aren't fun and entertainment. They're my fuscking friends. I didn't come up with this stuff. It's called the network effect, and it's been in effect since the telephone and telegraphy were created. The more people on the network the more valueable it becomes. Most famously AOL tried to play it against the network effect and they failed. And sooner or later youtube will either have to open up or they too will fail as their network will eneviteably become a culdasac on the information superhighway just like good old AOL. Peace, -Mike mmeiser.com/blog mefeedia.com On 11/18/06, Ted Tagami [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: community != walled garden. word. On 11/17/06, Eric Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This weekend at PodCamp West, I'm part of a discussion about Community Imperialism in DIY Media, because frankly, I believe the state of 'communities' is crap. It's been a rough week, seeing everyday people invoking the DMCA, requesting DRM to protect content; open source getting attacked; watching the word 'community' get thrown around when it means 'our silo'. And then I saw this. A 10 minute video that damn near had me in tears. Do you consider them videobloggers? I do. And since they aren't aware of THIS community, I will completely step outside any jurisdiction and award them all a Vloggie Award. They deserve it, too. http://www.ericrice.com/blog/?p=208 ER -- Ted Tagami Universus Networks, LLC U N I V E R S U S . N E T
Re: [videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
And you end up on my point, but it's a about Tony, baby. Videoblogging is people. I subscribe to people. Many video networks have categories for all types of shows, but leave out the 'people' category. Look at http://network2.tv/ * All Shows * Arts * Business * Cartoons * Comedy * Culture * Education * Entertainment * Family * Film * Food * Games * Health * Instructional * International * Local * Music * News * Politics * Society * Sports * Technology * Travel I asked them to add a people category and they have it in the queue. My vlog has videos that fit in a few of these categories, but how would you categorize it with choices liek these? You can't. It really belongs in a 'people' category. That's why I made suggestions for the vloggies to recognize people and specific videos instead of shows. That would have been more inclusive of the YouTube vloggers. --Steve On Nov 17, 2006, at 10:52 PM, Eric Rice wrote: Networks. Talkin' about themselves, when it should be about the show or content. More people know about BoingBoing than Federated Media.-- Good Throw in the Pod* networks, you might now a couple major shows, but hear about the network more-- Bad Heh, I got into the TV show LOST, way after everyone. I couldn't tell you what network it was on, cuz well, it's not about them, it's about LOST. Like the Sopranos. HBO, great, I can tune my TiVO, but it's a about Tony, baby. -- Steve Garfield http://SteveGarfield.com
Re: [videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
Wow, that I just read like 8 responses from Eric and one from Steve. Steve's concept, I don't subscribe to vlogs, I subscribe to people is exactly the same thing I'm saying. Perhaps it even put it in a better way for general understanding. Steve says, I subscribe to people, not vlogs Peter says, vidoeblogging isn't about viral video, it's about connecting people I say, videoblogging isn't about simple entertainment, it's about inter personal communication that just so happens to be public All these basically mean the same thing. And actually I think there seems to be a lot of cohesion and aggrement on the subject today. Let's call it more understanding, and good debate. Makes me happy. Truth be told I wanted to respond to every single eric rice email, but I'm going to have to pick a few. More to come. -Mike mmeiser.com/blog mmeiser.com On 11/18/06, Steve Garfield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And you end up on my point, but it's a about Tony, baby. Videoblogging is people. I subscribe to people. Many video networks have categories for all types of shows, but leave out the 'people' category. Look at http://network2.tv/ * All Shows * Arts * Business * Cartoons * Comedy * Culture * Education * Entertainment * Family * Film * Food * Games * Health * Instructional * International * Local * Music * News * Politics * Society * Sports * Technology * Travel I asked them to add a people category and they have it in the queue. My vlog has videos that fit in a few of these categories, but how would you categorize it with choices liek these? You can't. It really belongs in a 'people' category. That's why I made suggestions for the vloggies to recognize people and specific videos instead of shows. That would have been more inclusive of the YouTube vloggers. --Steve On Nov 17, 2006, at 10:52 PM, Eric Rice wrote: Networks. Talkin' about themselves, when it should be about the show or content. More people know about BoingBoing than Federated Media.-- Good Throw in the Pod* networks, you might now a couple major shows, but hear about the network more-- Bad Heh, I got into the TV show LOST, way after everyone. I couldn't tell you what network it was on, cuz well, it's not about them, it's about LOST. Like the Sopranos. HBO, great, I can tune my TiVO, but it's a about Tony, baby. -- Steve Garfield http://SteveGarfield.com Yahoo! Groups Links
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
--- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Eric Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This weekend at PodCamp West, I'm part of a discussion about Community Imperialism in DIY Media, because frankly, I believe the state of 'communities' is crap. It's been a rough week, seeing everyday people invoking the DMCA, requesting DRM to protect content; open source getting attacked; watching the word 'community' get thrown around when it means 'our silo'. And then I saw this. A 10 minute video that damn near had me in tears. Do you consider them videobloggers? I do. And since they aren't aware of THIS community, I will completely step outside any jurisdiction and award them all a Vloggie Award. They deserve it, too. http://www.ericrice.com/blog/?p=208 ER
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
--- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Eric Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Videoblog Community should be ALL including YouTubers, MySpacers, people who might not be aware of DV, RSS, etc Possible reality: Videoblog Community = This Yahoo Group (The Vloggies jumps right out at me one this one) How are they part of our vlogging community if you have to send us a link to notify us of their existence? Clearly, they are part of a different vlogging community. Is this a problem? Maybe about a century ago all the car drivers of Boston once knew each other. But when thousands of cars flooded the streets, these new drivers did not join the gang of initial pioneers in any sense. They just drove to work. Imperialism?
Re: [videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
I just finished reading this thread with a sorta confused look on my face for most of it And it fitting that the last message here by Charles Hope jives with how I feel. This seems to be a case of over-analyzing a specific perspective of communities who are using video to socialize, create, inform, entertain, insult, inspire etcetera. As for the video. yeah its a good job making a montage of some notable clips and clips that kind of express whats going on at YouTube. Add the sad sounding violin and piano and booya Change the soundtrack to some thrash metal... and you have something entirely different. But whatever. its a good video and thanks for sharing it here, eric. Oh yeah one more thing. Does anybody remember when webcams were first popular? It goes back a while now. 8 years or more maybe. Well, just see this wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuseeme Point is, webcam revolution already happened and it was about connecting people (for good or bad) across the world using video. YouTube has ALOT of webcam video. It always comes back to hwo YouTube made it more accessible and easy and how technology advacned to allow for this. Webcams are obviously very useful and important. Its part of the new phenomena of Internet Video but Videoblogging is more than webcams. Much more. And Videoblogging is more than viral video clips. Anyway. I still dont understand the whole point of this thread but thats fine. I've always felt that YouTube is perfect first step to videoblogging... getting comfortable with the idea of putting video out there and using cameras and services/software and for those who want to take things more seriously, they would get their own site and start blogging. Thats why I never hated YouTube for existing... and didnt agree with those who felt it would cause anegative impact on so-called videoblogging. It's all good. It's all relative. sull On 11/18/06, Charles Hope [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com, Eric Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Videoblog Community should be ALL including YouTubers, MySpacers, people who might not be aware of DV, RSS, etc Possible reality: Videoblog Community = This Yahoo Group (The Vloggies jumps right out at me one this one) How are they part of our vlogging community if you have to send us a link to notify us of their existence? Clearly, they are part of a different vlogging community. Is this a problem? Maybe about a century ago all the car drivers of Boston once knew each other. But when thousands of cars flooded the streets, these new drivers did not join the gang of initial pioneers in any sense. They just drove to work. Imperialism? -- Sull http://vlogdir.com (a project) http://SpreadTheMedia.org (my blog) http://interdigitate.com (otherly) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
sull wrote: This seems to be a case of over-analyzing a specific perspective of communities who are using video to socialize, create, inform, entertain, insult, inspire etcetera. Wait...overanalysis of small amounts of social behavior until it looks like peasants are storming the Bastille? In this group? Say it a'int so! -- Rhett.
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
Yes I think you are right, you have something there. I guess there are some other factors too, like cheapness and availability of webcams. And I guess when people are talking about emotional issues, sort of having a 'heart to heart' with the camera, the act of recording it can be quite a solitary thing. A private space shared. The reflective mood has the space to form in the silence of the self alone in a room, a location where much soul searching has been done, only this time the webcam is on and the hard drive ticks. I couldnt help but notice that a lot of the people in that mix were younger, poorer, and somtimes lacking in the confidence and connections that time experience afford to many of Also quite a number of them seemed to be English or British, and I wonder if they could of been influenced by the fact that we've had quite a few TV shows over the years that have featured 'ordinary people' who are given a videocamera and make a video diary. Obviously television imposes more constraints, but the end results often had a simialr sort of intensely personal, intimate, connection between viewer and the person pouring out their soul to the lens. I do not know how much any UK TV versions of such things could of influenced people really, and I dont know whether there have been many widel-watched TV equivalents in the USA over the years, so I dunno how wrong I am, just rambling really. Certainly I remember the emotional impact of the first handful of vloggers that I sxaw doing such things, I guess for me about 2 years ago no. Some of those people were/are in this yahoo group. I lose track of how many have kept that style. I know that video is so great for show and tell, I cann see why people can get caught up in showing new things and people. But really I do like to also see a part of people minds, stuff and places and conversations with multiple people are all very well, but the solitary human spirit pouring out onto camera will always have a special place, though I tremble as it makes people vunerable at the same time. As for community crapness, I dunno, community for me is an ever-changing thing and I dont expect a yahoo group or gatherings of a subsection of people, awards or anything else, to be the same as the potentially infinite community that can arise from huge random collections of videos online. The very essense of vlogging is in the whole, the vlogs themselves, as you find them and as others create them, a subsection of these people that decide to talk about vlogging can never be a mini-mirror of the wider phenomenon. I havent read Zen the art of motorocycle maintenance for a long time but something in my sponge-brain tells me theres a concept or 2 in there that applies. I wonder if that made any sense. Putting it another way, no conference, forum, mailing list or gathering in time/space, f finite size, is going to come close to the greater voyage. I dont know if I really know what community is, I am always both amazed and dissapointed by the sea of people flow from place to place that I am stumbling upon at that moment. Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Josh Leo [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: this video reminds me of all the first videos i watched when i started videoblogging... it is about making connections with people and sharing your life... however I feel like the one difference between most youtubers is that the diary/confessional/personal videos are made on an actual webcam and not a DV cam that people take with them... though it could all be a matter of influence.. did i start showing my house and neighborhood because i saw jay, ryanne, and verdi do it before me... or was it something else... are these people only sitting at their computer filming because they haven't been influenced by other styles of personal video? On 11/17/06, Eric Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This weekend at PodCamp West, I'm part of a discussion about Community Imperialism in DIY Media, because frankly, I believe the state of 'communities' is crap. It's been a rough week, seeing everyday people invoking the DMCA, requesting DRM to protect content; open source getting attacked; watching the word 'community' get thrown around when it means 'our silo'. And then I saw this. A 10 minute video that damn near had me in tears. Do you consider them videobloggers? I do. And since they aren't aware of THIS community, I will completely step outside any jurisdiction and award them all a Vloggie Award. They deserve it, too. http://www.ericrice.com/blog/?p=208 ER -- Josh Leo www.JoshLeo.com [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
IMHO many are all desperate to be heard as individuals and are more comfortable projecting to anonymous strangers than you may be talking to your next door neighbor or the person in line next to you at the coffee shop - which is a very interesting state of affairs for the world - it's quite healthy for people to talk to others, even if the conduit is a monologue with delayed interventions. the original lost generation was in the 20's.. this generation likes to videotape themselves to the world saying um so like I dont have anything to say but like I just wanted to say hi. ain't got no one to talk to? - vblog by yourself in your bedroom! --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Eric Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This weekend at PodCamp West, I'm part of a discussion about Community Imperialism in DIY Media, because frankly, I believe the state of 'communities' is crap. It's been a rough week, seeing everyday people invoking the DMCA, requesting DRM to protect content; open source getting attacked; watching the word 'community' get thrown around when it means 'our silo'. And then I saw this. A 10 minute video that damn near had me in tears. Do you consider them videobloggers? I do. And since they aren't aware of THIS community, I will completely step outside any jurisdiction and award them all a Vloggie Award. They deserve it, too. http://www.ericrice.com/blog/?p=208 ER
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
You got me looking at the word Imperial and what it actually means. It really applies to countries, but tracing the term back further I guess you are basically meaning human power, the way people get it, and the effect it has on others, those without power? If so, I find it interesting that people gaining power does not necessarily say anything about their moticves or how much good they are doing. Someone who is doing stuff to help others, whether it be doing workshops, books, whatever, is likely to gain personally on a number of levels, including power. Whether the power goes on to corrupt them in some way, whether they are uncomfortable with the power and seek to diminish it, or not use it, that comes down to chance and genetics as much as ideology and anything else. Id love to know more about what you are meaning, and how you think things could be any different, given that we work with the human nature we've got, not the nature we much yearn for. When it comes to video communties, Ive always been interested in whether text forum concepts could be merged with video, but with a new angle that avoids clumsiness, sort of a cross between forums, instant cha, mailing lists, blog vlogs, youtube clips and live internet chat. almost like an equivalent of mobile text messaging but with video between larger groups. Thats where Id hope to see something resembling the idea of 'community'. I also love show type vlogs but I dont expect it to satisfy the human social itch in as broad and 'community' a sense. Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Eric Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This weekend at PodCamp West, I'm part of a discussion about Community Imperialism in DIY Media, because frankly, I believe the state of 'communities' is crap. It's been a rough week, seeing everyday people invoking the DMCA, requesting DRM to protect content; open source getting attacked; watching the word 'community' get thrown around when it means 'our silo'. And then I saw this. A 10 minute video that damn near had me in tears. Do you consider them videobloggers? I do. And since they aren't aware of THIS community, I will completely step outside any jurisdiction and award them all a Vloggie Award. They deserve it, too. http://www.ericrice.com/blog/?p=208 ER
Re: [videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
On 17 Nov 2006, at 23:40, Steve Watkins wrote: Also quite a number of them seemed to be English or British, and I wonder if they could of been influenced by the fact that we've had quite a few TV shows over the years that have featured 'ordinary people' who are given a videocamera and make a video diary. Obviously television imposes more constraints, but the end results often had a simialr sort of intensely personal, intimate, connection between viewer and the person pouring out their soul to the lens. I do not know how much any UK TV versions of such things could of influenced people really, and I dont know whether there have been many widel-watched TV equivalents in the USA over the years, so I dunno how wrong I am, just rambling really. I am thinking that this whole concept is a little behind over here, so much so that it is only just recently that Youtube has been mentioned on Mainstream TV and Radio and it seems any kid with a mobile phone and computer can access myspace, there is also the time element over here, it is still really uncool to spend a lot of time in front of the internet rather than being in front of the TV. Also video blogging over here, ie putting video onto a site, requires that the person has a super inflated ego, something that is not so British, we being the reserved sort. And you are right, over here Reality TV rules, top shows include BIg Brother, I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here, Wife Swap etc. So there must be some sort of coalition between the two. However some news in, Channel 5 news is now asking for Your News, a segment for the end of the evening news where budding journo's with video cams or mobiles can shoot a piece of video informing of some local news to them, these are exciting times for us British, pity no one will read this or comment. Paul Knight [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
Hopefully, if the youtube crowd remains a diverse thing, that wont happen. There will always be new people appearing and being in that 'hi, here i am' phase. And I doubt a majority of those people will necessarily go on to other things, they will continue to evolve as people but maybe without online video. Certainly theres only room for so many celebrities, cross-overs to MSM or even people who are regularily interviewd by MSM. I agree it is exactly what people had hoped for, in that there are now enough easy to use tools, and ever increasing public awareness, of how easy this stuff can be done if they already have a computer etc for other purposes. There will be a need for people to continue to push the barriers of entry down, but things have certainly reached some sort of breaking point, even if a lot of this is down to sheer awareness of youtube existing, and Im sure the myspace phenomenon plays a part. Whatever else the internet is or isnt, it can certainly help with lonliness of many kinds, though as an ubernerd who is socially awkward, I can report that its no replacement for a fully rounded life, but its better than an empty void. Stating the obvious I am, but I especially like it when the internet can help people who have barriers against other sorts of social interaction, whether it be due to old age or other physical or mind limitations. I question whether its been 20-months, because Ive always questioned exactly how much the 'blog' part of vlogging is as important/central as its always been painted. I see it all as part of a much longer history of people media online. Dont get me wrong, it was/is important, as is syndication, but the ubiquity of browser-flash-video playback and previous viral video phenomenon play just as big a role in something like youtube to my eyes. Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Jay dedman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wonder how long it'll take for the YouTube crowd to evolve past the hi, here i am phase. this is exactly what we always wanted. its only been about 20 months. jay -- Me http://www.momentshowing.net My Book http://tinyurl.com/e6cap SF community http://RyanIsHungry.com Community Capitalism http://HaveMoneyWillVlog.com Educate http://node101.org Collaboration http://spinxpress.com Call now to activate 917 371 6790
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
Yeah, I dont know if we are behind or if the cultural differences you referred to mean that we'll always be different like that. I dont know if the whole 'blogging' thing, let alone video blogging, ever meant the same to people on this side of the pond, let alone videoblogging. As you said, the national stereotype of brits being reserved is generally true, maybe that will indeed make us more in need of intimate videoneting than other more outgoing cultures, just because we cant get that release any other way. Can a webcam get past the stiff upper lip? SOmetimes yes, but will we run away when we see some who have made themselves vunerable through video, get damaged? I dont really understand the full history or details of your feelings towards the community, the responses you get (or lack thereof), of vloggercons or vlogies or any other factor that contributes to the underlying sense of disappointment which you seem to be strongly hinting at in recent posts. I myself have a history of wibbling on this list, Ive lurked on fringes, failed to do hardly any video, been extremely vocal with my opinion hundreds of times, felt good, bad and indifferent, felt ignored, felt like a nuisance, felt useful, felt like a different species, felt both appreciation and frustration by the intreguing differences between americans and my own culture. And internet forums and mailing lists and groups of humans in general always elicit a very mixed bag of responses, often leave the poster hungry for much, much more. I bet its not so very different with comments on videos, its the terrible reality that it go great to dream, and yet most dreams end in a dissapointing descent to reality, and a lonely silent one is one of the worst. And for all my love of video, Ive always been to shy to say any of these sorts of things in video, too self-concious to even have a personal text-blog, so I spew the words here on this sort of group,a nd its probably a mismatch, but somehow I find safety in numbers (of people). Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Paul Knight [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am thinking that this whole concept is a little behind over here, so much so that it is only just recently that Youtube has been mentioned on Mainstream TV and Radio and it seems any kid with a mobile phone and computer can access myspace, there is also the time element over here, it is still really uncool to spend a lot of time in front of the internet rather than being in front of the TV. Also video blogging over here, ie putting video onto a site, requires that the person has a super inflated ego, something that is not so British, we being the reserved sort. And you are right, over here Reality TV rules, top shows include BIg Brother, I'm a Celebrity Get Me Out Of Here, Wife Swap etc. So there must be some sort of coalition between the two. However some news in, Channel 5 news is now asking for Your News, a segment for the end of the evening news where budding journo's with video cams or mobiles can shoot a piece of video informing of some local news to them, these are exciting times for us British, pity no one will read this or comment. Paul Knight [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
Re: [videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
On 11/17/06, Steve Watkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And for all my love of video, Ive always been to shy to say any of these sorts of things in video, too self-concious to even have a personal text-blog, so I spew the words here on this sort of group,a nd its probably a mismatch, but somehow I find safety in numbers (of people). I have a hard time with that too, can't talk straight into the camera so I have to find alternate routes. Your words are always welcome and insightful. Especially that previous post you just made about Youtube helping with loneliness. If it can help somebody feel less alone, that's a pretty big fucking deal. I'm a recent convert. Long live the Youtubers (but not necessarily Youtube). AQ thepan.org (was broken but now is fixed, sorta) [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
--- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Steve Watkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: exactly how much the 'blog' part of vlogging is as important/central Did ya notice how a lot of them referred to their video as simply, 'a blog' ? We didn't see THAT whap upside the head coming with the productive debates on vlogvideovodviddankwankmankvideopodcasstbloggerring nomenclature. Blog, ER
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
I think the term that might be more accurately reflective is 'cultural imperialism', but community was substituted in light of the thinking that we view ourselves as a community more than a culture in most cases? I also adore how inflammatory Imperialism is as a word, but go 10,000 m with your reading, not so much a direct literal interpretation. ER --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Steve Watkins [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You got me looking at the word Imperial and what it actually means. It really applies to countries, but tracing the term back further I guess you are basically meaning human power, the way people get it, and the effect it has on others, those without power? If so, I find it interesting that people gaining power does not necessarily say anything about their moticves or how much good they are doing. Someone who is doing stuff to help others, whether it be doing workshops, books, whatever, is likely to gain personally on a number of levels, including power. Whether the power goes on to corrupt them in some way, whether they are uncomfortable with the power and seek to diminish it, or not use it, that comes down to chance and genetics as much as ideology and anything else. Id love to know more about what you are meaning, and how you think things could be any different, given that we work with the human nature we've got, not the nature we much yearn for. When it comes to video communties, Ive always been interested in whether text forum concepts could be merged with video, but with a new angle that avoids clumsiness, sort of a cross between forums, instant cha, mailing lists, blog vlogs, youtube clips and live internet chat. almost like an equivalent of mobile text messaging but with video between larger groups. Thats where Id hope to see something resembling the idea of 'community'. I also love show type vlogs but I dont expect it to satisfy the human social itch in as broad and 'community' a sense. Steve Elbows --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Eric Rice eric@ wrote: This weekend at PodCamp West, I'm part of a discussion about Community Imperialism in DIY Media, because frankly, I believe the state of 'communities' is crap. It's been a rough week, seeing everyday people invoking the DMCA, requesting DRM to protect content; open source getting attacked; watching the word 'community' get thrown around when it means 'our silo'. And then I saw this. A 10 minute video that damn near had me in tears. Do you consider them videobloggers? I do. And since they aren't aware of THIS community, I will completely step outside any jurisdiction and award them all a Vloggie Award. They deserve it, too. http://www.ericrice.com/blog/?p=208 ER
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
--- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Joshua Kinberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: frankly, I believe the state of 'communities' is crap. Can you explain this statement further? What is 'crap' about the state of 'communities'? Silos, isolationism, mis-labelling-- whether intentional or by accident. Blogosphere for example, term supposed to mean 'bloggers everywhere' /me dances through meadow. Possible reality: Blogosphere = Blogger/Tech Blogosphere Podcast Listeners should be ALL Possible reality: Podcast Listeners = Other podcasters who listen (i think user conferences when most of the people aren't plain users, but creator-users, ie., us. Again. Do your myspace readers and listeners and viewers show up at these things? Uhm, thinkin' 'no' ? Videoblog Community should be ALL including YouTubers, MySpacers, people who might not be aware of DV, RSS, etc Possible reality: Videoblog Community = This Yahoo Group (The Vloggies jumps right out at me one this one) The fractured communities also. All the sites that have 'community' features that slurp in because the technical underpinings allows it; requiring a content creator to have to go there and manage. A billion directories that play the portal game. Look how full featured we are... How many places can your audio and video exist that are 'communities for listeners or viewers', and yet, populated with ourselves, who, while true we are listeners and viewers of our own stuff, there are multiple levels of consumer, active, active/passive, full participatory--- epsilon construct kinda stuff. Even in Second Life, the two major podcast presences (one is friend, one is foe) built silos that is populated by, zOMG, PODCASTERS, overwhelmingly moreso than the general public. It's like the midway at the carnival. A LOT of us 'three balls for a dollar' types. Networks. Talkin' about themselves, when it should be about the show or content. More people know about BoingBoing than Federated Media.-- Good Throw in the Pod* networks, you might now a couple major shows, but hear about the network more-- Bad Heh, I got into the TV show LOST, way after everyone. I couldn't tell you what network it was on, cuz well, it's not about them, it's about LOST. Like the Sopranos. HBO, great, I can tune my TiVO, but it's a about Tony, baby. And check this. Vsocial. If you go to mefeedia and look at the directory, you have these various aggregate sites. The vsocial one jumped out at me: vSocial is a video clip sharing community that is designed to make it brain-dead easy to upload, view and share your favorite video clips. In addition, we provide really great web based tools that enable users to actually do something with the video on their favorite community sites, blogs and within video iPods. Look at the order in which vSocial is promoted. Producers first, and 'in addition' doing something with video, like what, I dunno, *watching* maybe? In the context of sites that have video, video to be viewed, lots of it--- the smallest fraction of the population-- the creators-- is what's promoted first. YouTube, while kinda clunky, focuses attention on the video; they have 'community' features; the workflow shows that people can view it independent of the site (embedding etc), and you can follow the weird Video link in IM--- to peer -- View -- feedback loop back to sender of IM, not the creator; also outside of the community. However YouTube has an active community on their own site; most do. I remember a time that YouTube was looked down upon by this group-- me included-- for ay number of reasons-- didn't follow the RSS spec, or people didn't like flash, or all this tech stuff that may or may not actually matter. Where are all the skate and snowboard videos living, the ones that have been around for years on the web? Could they be nominated if we don't know about them because they are outside our inner circle. We talk about ourselves to ourselves, and I think that creates this false sense of community. It's a fine line between early adopters meeting technological tutorials and the vital need for this as a resource for videomakers... does that make it a true representation of Videblogging? It's perhaps at this point where 'community' becomes 'society'. And that might make us resistant to change or stagnant, because we don't control absolute awareness of what is out there. -- Eegads, that's long winded, but hey, that's half my notes for Podcamp hehe, so I suppose we can figure out how to break out of our inwardness on a global scale: blogs, podcasts, videoblogs, metaverses, etc. :-) ER
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
--- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Eric Rice [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Blogosphere for example, term supposed to mean 'bloggers everywhere' /me dances through meadow. Possible reality: Blogosphere = Blogger/Tech Blogosphere Podcast Listeners should be ALL Possible reality: Podcast Listeners = Other podcasters who listen (i think user conferences when most of the people aren't plain users, but creator-users, ie., us. Again. Do your myspace readers and listeners and viewers show up at these things? Uhm, thinkin' 'no' ? Videoblog Community should be ALL including YouTubers, MySpacers, people who might not be aware of DV, RSS, etc Possible reality: Videoblog Community = This Yahoo Group (The Vloggies jumps right out at me one this one) Now that you mention The Vloggies, how come http://vloggiessf.com was never updated with A) the winners, and B) any coverage of the event, whatsoever? I think all of the points that you make are very good ones and valid ones. What are you suggesting, though? Do you have a solution to this? Are you looking for a solution, or only trying to spark awareness with this thread? In any situation, you're going to have groups or communities or cliques or 'the elite'. While I agree, in essence, with what you seem to be saying, which is that people with zero technical videomaking skills or who only videoblog from their bedrooms on their webcams are looked over when it comes to being recognized as 'actual' videobloggers or 'serious' videobloggers, lines are always going to be drawn. There are people on YouTube that aren't aware of people on MySpace. There are people on Match.com that aren't aware of people on Yahoo Personals. There are people on Revver that aren't aware of people on Brightcove... More 'communities' are created every day, leading to more people being involved in general, but less awareness by one particular community about the overall population. In the USA, we have football. If you're good at football as a kid, you might get to play on the HS team. After that, you might get to play college ball. You might make it after that to the NFL. If you make it to the Super Bowl in the NFL, you might be crowned WORLD CHAMPION of football. The best in the entire world! :D Did you compete against everyone in the entire world? no. Did you compete against football players in China? no. The NFL exists in the USA. There's the CFL! :) Why don't they have the NFL champions play against the CFL champions? Then against the Brazilian football champions? :D On that note, we're the only ones that call football football. Everyone else calls 'soccer' football. Until there's a way to include everyone in the world in something, there are going to be groups that take liberties and call themselves the best in the world at what they do. Most of the time, anyone else would be hard-pressed to prove them wrong. :) In the case of video on the net or whatever one cares to call it, there are different styles and motivations for each group of videos. There are people that tell their life stories to the webcam in their bedroom. There are people that report about what someone else did. There are people that go out and do things and videotape them. There are people that do their videos in one take and others that script and create props and act in and edit their videos. Categories are necessary in order to avoid comparing apples and oranges. You don't want to compare Galacticast to Beachwalks.TV, because they don't express themselves through video the same way. Their styles AND motivations are different. OTOH, how far are you suggesting that someone search for videos in the Science Fiction Comedy or Inspirational categories? Should someone compile a list of all the 'communities' they can find that do video on the web, and make sure to advertise contests to everyone available? Where are all the skate and snowboard videos living, the ones that have been around for years on the web? Could they be nominated if we don't know about them because they are outside our inner circle. We talk about ourselves to ourselves, and I think that creates this false sense of community. Another good point... about people being nominated from outside the circle, but I think the sense of community is not false. This is CLEARLY a community. It might just be a much smaller community than people think it is. It's a global community in a geographical sense, but not in the sense of being all-inclusive, for the reasons you stated yourself. There are many communities and many inner circles all over the place. The only reason I even heard of Lonelygirl15 is that someone brought her videoblog up as an example of a corporate hoax. It's not YouTube's job to get everyone outside the YouTube community up to speed. They have their own inner circles and senses of
RE: [videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
Now that you mention The Vloggies, how come http://vloggiessf. http://vloggiessf.com com was never updated with A) the winners, and B) any coverage of the event, whatsoever? The coverage and winners' list was on the Vloggie blog: http://vloggies.wordpress.com/ But, we could have done a better job. It's just that the blogosphere covered it so well that we just didn't think to come on afterward and cover it. Robert Scoble ### [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
Oh. I see. :) Good coverage, too. I've never seen that because I didn't see a link to that page from the main page. Thanks. --- In videoblogging@yahoogroups.com, Robert Scoble [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now that you mention The Vloggies, how come http://vloggiessf. http://vloggiessf.com com was never updated with A) the winners, and B) any coverage of the event, whatsoever? The coverage and winners' list was on the Vloggie blog: http://vloggies.wordpress.com/ But, we could have done a better job. It's just that the blogosphere covered it so well that we just didn't think to come on afterward and cover it. Robert Scoble ### [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
RE: [videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community
Our main Vloggies page is an abortion. If it weren't for Google I wouldn't have been able to find it either. But, there is a link there. Heheh. We just hired a designer away from Yahoo, so hopefully this improves. Either way, I just will cover it on my blog and you'll all find it anyway, right? Heheh. Robert _ From: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Bill Cammack Sent: Friday, November 17, 2006 10:25 PM To: videoblogging@yahoogroups.com Subject: [videoblogging] Re: The other videoblogging community Oh. I see. :) Good coverage, too. I've never seen that because I didn't see a link to that page from the main page. Thanks. --- In videoblogging@ mailto:videoblogging%40yahoogroups.com yahoogroups.com, Robert Scoble [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Now that you mention The Vloggies, how come http://vloggiessf. http://vloggiessf. http://vloggiessf.com com com was never updated with A) the winners, and B) any coverage of the event, whatsoever? The coverage and winners' list was on the Vloggie blog: http://vloggies. http://vloggies.wordpress.com/ wordpress.com/ But, we could have done a better job. It's just that the blogosphere covered it so well that we just didn't think to come on afterward and cover it. Robert Scoble ### [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
