On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 10:26 PM, Jed Rothwell jedrothw...@gmail.comwrote:
Harry Veeder hveeder...@gmail.com wrote:
Notably, F. Hayek, one of the greatest advocates of free market
economics, argued that everyone should receive a basic income or (what
he called a minimum income) regardless of
Just being a little bit nitpick, it's a bit over 4x:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population
2013/1/30 Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com
China, with roughly three times the population of the US, at the level of
prosperity of Singapore.
--
Daniel Rocha - RJ
Unemployment dropping?
http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2013/01/28/college-educated-over-qualified-study/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl3%7Csec3_lnk2%26pLid%3D262707
It's funny and sad to see people in denial in the comments section.
2013/1/29 fznidar...@aol.com
Unemployment dropping?
http://jobs.aol.com/articles/2013/01/28/college-educated-over-qualified-study/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl3%7Csec3_lnk2%26pLid%3D262707
--
Daniel Rocha - RJ
The article tallies with the UK where the proportion of graduates in the
cohort entering employment each year is double the proportion of jobs
requiring a degree. My daughter and her son in law both got firsts,
and both ended up in jobs that do not require a degree. My son in law
is
Not just sad but scary because such an apparent lack of education is
revealed in the comments. We all agree that standards have been
lowered for both high-school and college degrees. As a result, many
graduates are qualified only for low skilled jobs. Consequently, a big
push is now
Garbage.
I know lots of US engineers who have been out of work for years and are not
being hired even though they are doing occasional contract work at what
amounts to below minimum wage.
These aren't just any old engineers. They include guys who built the
Internet and have current skills.
Thanks Jim for making my comment more vivid. The situation is growing
worse and your personal experience is one of many tragic
consequences. The driving force behind hiring is the cost of labor.
People from other countries are cheaper, the young are cheaper, and
the robots are cheaper.
The low wage argument doesn't wash. The H-1b workers are not being paid
below minimum wage and that's what the un/deremployed older engineers are
getting. What is going on is an individualist culture is being taken over
by, not one, but multiple nepotistic cultures.
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at
On Jan 29, 2013, at 10:57 AM, James Bowery wrote:
The low wage argument doesn't wash. The H-1b workers are not
being paid below minimum wage and that's what the un/deremployed
older engineers are getting. What is going on is an individualist
culture is being taken over by, not one, but
I am an engineering manager in the consulting engineer business. I do
run across cultural nepotism occasionally; but, right now, there is a
shortage of good engineering talent.
In my business, money is rarely the issue . . . it is expertise. I
have two large engineering firms to draw from,
A position with a consulting engineering firm is not the same as a job with
the Fortune 500 -- and it is no surprise that otherwise unemployable older
engineers are ending up in consulting engineering firms that may service
the Fortune 500. It is an obvious market niche and it is good to hear it
Ed,
This is another reason why Second Incomes not dependent upon jobs or savings
are becoming so important.
When a substantial portion of income,the goal is half by about age 50, is
derived from diversified investments - individuals have the time and money to
pursue more of what they want
I agree Mark, a second income is important. Cold fusion had provided
that for me until recently. Nevertheless, I find that a second income
is not easy to achieve while still having time for anything else. Of
course, giving a course on second income can be a second income.;-) A
friend
Ed,
What is important to recognize about this economic invention - is that it is
not related to jobs or savings.
This is a revolutionary idea - with potential impact at least as great as LENR.
If opens a path to the most genuinely free society in human history.
And can be adapted in most
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 1:47 PM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:
A position with a consulting engineering firm is not the same as a job with
the Fortune 500 -- and it is no surprise that otherwise unemployable older
engineers are ending up in consulting engineering firms that may service
Ed Storms wrote:
Thanks Mark. Their view of reality differs significantly from what the
people I read describe. I tend to believe my people because they
predicted the 2008 collapse while Krugman did not. . . .
Krugman did predict it, and warned against it several times. Such as here,
in
As for the poor educational outcomes of the US vs other countries:
When adjusted for economic class, the US is near the top.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/wp/2013/01/15/u-s-scores-on-international-test-lowered-by-sampling-error-report/
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 2:07 PM, Jed
On Jan 29, 2013, at 1:07 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
Ed Storms wrote:
Thanks Mark. Their view of reality differs significantly from what the
people I read describe. I tend to believe my people because they
predicted the 2008 collapse while Krugman did not. . . .
Krugman did predict it, and
Business Insider recently reported that Krugman may be discreetly admitting
that he has made a serious oversight with regard to the viability of Social
Security. Automation is eliminating jobs at such a rate that the payroll tax
funding source may be in peril.
I'm always amazed, no matter what the conclusion, someone can always
find evidence for the opposite. Here are some contrary opinions.
I expect the economic class has an influence and some fraction of any
population will always be well educated and some fraction will be
poorly educated.
On Jan 29, 2013, at 1:37 PM, Daniel Rocha wrote:
I think you refer to your country.
Yes
But, I wouldn't be sure about people that goes to work there. From
my personal experience, people who go to work in your country are
selected in a much wider population than among your own and accept
I have to agree with Terry here.
As a hiring manager in the software industry (more specifically
internet) over the last few years I've found it is more and more
difficult to find adequate talent and or work ethic and motivation -
especially amongst the younger generation.
There seems to
Ed:
The housing bubble didn't almost bring down the entire world economy. That is
pure sensationalism. As with any bubble, when it pops those holding the bag
usually suffer. In the case of 2008, the bag holders got the world governments
to spread the suffering.
Your comments sound like many
On Jan 29, 2013, at 2:08 PM, Randy wuller wrote:
Ed:
The housing bubble didn't almost bring down the entire world
economy. That is pure sensationalism. As with any bubble, when it
pops those holding the bag usually suffer. In the case of 2008, the
bag holders got the world governments
Call it social security, call it a citizen dividend, call it whatever you want,
if world productivity continues to increase (ie, more is available to
distribute) so will the give away to those living and not producing or not
producing much. Even if no one is working we will find a way to
Time to work toward implementing a Second Income Plan.
The idea originated with the late Louis O. Kelso, father of the Employee Stock
Ownership Plan used by 11,000 companies. It does not depend upon jobs or
savings. See SECOND INCOMES at www.aesopinstitute.org for the most recent
version.
Ed:
An idiot would have taken their money out of the stock market in 2008 and 1929.
Now a really good prognosticator would have taken their money out in 2007 and
1928 and put it right back into the market in 2009 and 1930, (but if you know
any of those, you may want them to take a lie
Randy, a lot depends upon which companies you invested in before the crash. I
put a fair amount of faith that GM would not be allowed to fail since it has a
powerful union that has a great deal of influence upon the democratic party.
My logic was that there was no possibility that the
I agree Randy, we need a way to distribute the goodies being made
increasingly without human help. The free enterprise system worked
well in the past and many other ideas have failed. However, transition
to a new system will not be easy. I suggest every one read the book
Essentials of
On Jan 29, 2013, at 3:29 PM, Randy wuller wrote:
Ed:
An idiot would have taken their money out of the stock market in
2008 and 1929.
Unfortunately most of the world is an idiot. Nevertheless, I take your
point.
Now a really good prognosticator would have taken their money out in
Ed:
Not pessimistic at all. But, yes we can probably all be replaced. However,
Human Beings will just find something else to do.
The dilemma between Government directed and market directed is that the
Government does a real bad job of running a business. I spent years on Capital
Hill
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Terry Blanton hohlr...@gmail.com wrote:
There seems to be a prevaling sense of
entitlement in this generation.
When your generation entered the workforce it was generally realistic
for them to expect their income would eventually exceed their parents
income.
From Ed:
Thanks Jim for making my comment more vivid. The situation
is growing worse and your personal experience is one of many tragic
consequences. The driving force behind hiring is the cost of labor.
People from other countries are cheaper, the young are cheaper, and
the
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 7:10 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson
orionwo...@charter.net wrote:
However, what I find inexcusable, ABSOLUTELY INEXCUSABLE, is that
companies like EMC appear to have gutted a significant portion of their
experienced English speaking technical staff and
I wrote:
unless, perhaps, one is willing to grant themselves a dispensation to
depart a little from the spirit of market-based solutions.
I should add that Singapore, during its period of rapid development, did
not hesitate to depart from free-market principles. There were trade
barriers and
On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 8:46 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:
China appears to be pursuing a similar policy, and I suspect it will reap
similar rewards in the future.
I'm having fun trolling tonight, so I'll add one more fascinating thought
-- the folks in China are hardworking and
this is also the position of the writer on the next convergence.
Real policy for emerging countries is not laisser-faire, but TEMPORARY
protectionism, huge investment in education and infrastructure, support for
NEW industry...
and reinventing all, breaking the old model, every 10 years. also one
That is a general point about how governments manage transition.
They want to protect jobs, and existing industries, not to help things to
change to a better point.
as i repeat often it is well explained in the Next convergence as the big
problems with governments.
Laisser-faire and saving jobs
The fact that an analysis conflicts with every economist does not make
it wrong. After their almost complete failure (yes I know there were
some notable exceptions) to predict our current crisis I no longer have
much faith in what economists say. A few years ago the UK Queen asked
some
Ed, Where can we hide?
I have studied hard and obtained 2 and 1/2 college degrees, have worked
overtime for 34 years, and have downsized as companies closed down five times.
There is no chance that Bethlehem Steel will ever hire me back. Same to say
for the rest. I have saved some
Like all subjects, some people understand and are generally basically
right and there are people who do not have a clue and are basically
wrong even though they have positions of power and fame. It really
does matter whom you believe since we as individuals cannot master
everything. To
Hi Frank,
Thanks for a copy of your book. I'm part way through and find it very
interesting.
As to your question, a financial collapse always affects different
people different ways depending where they live and their personal
financial situation. Generally, a skilled person who uses
The problem is xenophobia. With more high skilled laborers from Asia, none
of this would have happened:
A bipartisan group of Senators is planning to introduce a bill that allows
the H-1B visa cap to rise automatically with demand to a maximum of 300,000
visas annually. This 20-page bill, called
But seriously, folks, check out this site:
http://www.resilientcommunities.com/
On Sun, Jan 27, 2013 at 11:33 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote:
The problem is xenophobia. With more high skilled laborers from Asia,
none of this would have happened:
A bipartisan group of Senators is
Jed sez:
Meant people do NOT like paying taxes . . .
It is a shame we cannot edit these messages.
No harm done, Jed.
I thought you were just being sarcastic. Seemed perfectly appropriate at the
time.
Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks
Hi Frank,
Thanks for a copy of your book. I'm part way through and find it
very interesting.
Thats what Bohr said when he did not like something. Its interesting He
never said very interesting. So you really do like it. I am happy with that.
I am selling 3 books a week. Not
But is he reading it while sitting in the smallest room in his house?
:-)
From: fznidar...@aol.com
Hi Frank,
Thanks for a copy of your book. I'm part way through and find it
very interesting.
Thats what Bohr said when he did not like something. Its interesting He
Ed, Yes. Time will tell.
But the solution to our economic dilemmas requires bold thinking.
SECOND INCOMES and HUMAN INVESTMENT TAX CREDITS can make a huge contribution.
Mark
Mark Goldes
Co-Founder, Chava Energy
CEO, Aesop Institute
www.chavaenergy.com
www.aesopinstitute.org
707 861-9070
707
A truly scary prospect, I would say. Humans now have three ways they
could make themselves extinct - atomic weapons, biological weapons,
and smart computers. The list seems to be growing. What happens when
the smart computer is run by cold fusion so that it can never be
turned off?
Ed
Ed sez:
What happens when the smart computer is run by cold fusion so that it
can never be turned off?
Men will be free to go back to watching professional wrestling football on
TV 20 hours a day.
Women... cooking shows.
Thus spoke, THGTTG: Mostly harmless.
Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
A truly scary prospect, I would say. Humans now have three ways they could
make themselves extinct - atomic weapons, biological weapons, and smart
computers.
I do not see it that way. Nuclear or biological weapons would cause only
massive harm.
Well Steven, as usual you cleverly identified another way humans will
become extinct. These activities will cause excessive sex from
boredom, which will require the computer to thin the population,
perhaps by an excessive amount using the other tools I mentioned.
Ed
On Jan 26, 2013, at
I agree Jed, you are correct if humans were rational. Unfortunately, a
significant fraction are not rational, as can be easily seen at all
levels. When irrational people have the ability, they always attempt
to destroy. In the past, their ability was very limited. This ability
is growing.
Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
I agree Jed, you are correct if humans were rational.
They are, at times. If we were not rational, civilization and technology
would not exist.
Unfortunately, a significant fraction are not rational, as can be easily
seen at all levels. When
On Jan 26, 2013, at 9:39 AM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
I agree Jed, you are correct if humans were rational.
They are, at times. If we were not rational, civilization and
technology would not exist.
Unfortunately, a significant fraction are not
On Jan 26, 2013, at 10:45 AM, a.ashfield wrote:
Interesting discussion. I have been writing about this for years
but it is good to see the main media is starting to pick it up. The
referenced article was rather unimaginative in places but noted the
basic question: “who is going buy all
Louis Kelso, inventor of the Employee Stock Ownership Plan - ESOP - used by
11,000 companies, saw this coming decades ago. He suggested a Second Income
Plan. See: SECOND INCOMES at www.aesopinstitute.org for a current version.
Independent of savings, it would open a path to end poverty, and
Edmund Storms wrote: This is obviously a basic question and the obvious
answer is a form of socialism. Money will have be extracted from the
system to give basic support to the unemployed and underemployed. As we
know from sad experience, when people are hungary and bored they gum up
the
On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 1:56 PM, a.ashfield a.ashfi...@verizon.net wrote:
So like the Chinese proverb says: “Interesting times.”
That has been considered a curse more than a proverb.
From Ashfield:
... The referenced article was rather unimaginative in places but
noted the basic question: who is going buy all these nice goodies
if they are unemployed?
Precisely.
personal rant
IMHO, too many politicians are focusing on a misguided belief that balancing
the
as explained in the wired, and as experienced in the 50s,
the automation will reduce some work, but create others that we don't
imagine, or we don't dare to.
there is also old need that will be covered better like elderly care,
better health care, disabled care, ...
vacation will develop (I don't
Second Incomes, as suggested by Louis Kelso, would be derived from a broad new
program of capital investment. This is not in any way Socialism. Kelso's first
book, with Mortimer Adler, was The Capitalist Manifesto.
There is a link, under SECOND INCOMES, on the Aesop Institute website, to a
Agreed.
See HUMAN INVESTMENT, on the Aesop Institute site, for a way to sharply
increase employment. Weak versions of the incentives we suggested in Discussion
Papers we wrote for the Economic Development Administration (U.S. Department of
Commerce) were included in the Jobs Tax Credit of
Kelos's goal was to enable almost everyone to receive half your income from
diversified investments by about age 50.
That could lower the nominal work week to 20 hours.
Herbert Marcuse defined toil as work you do not choose to do. All other work he
viewed as play. His only optimistic book,
On Jan 26, 2013, at 11:45, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson
orionwo...@charter.net wrote:
I don't think one can accomplish that by constantly slashing national budgets
in a misguided belief that doing so will stabilize the value of money,
which in turn will somehow miraculously cause
Steven:
How many people could $400 BILLION dollars feed?
-Mark
From: OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson [mailto:orionwo...@charter.net]
Sent: Saturday, January 26, 2013 11:46 AM
To: vortex-l@eskimo.com
Subject: RE: [Vo]:Another article about the impact of automation on
employment
From
On Jan 26, 2013, at 12:45 PM, OrionWorks - Steven Vincent Johnson wrote:
From Ashfield:
... The referenced article was rather unimaginative in places but
noted the basic question: “who is going buy all these nice goodies
if they are unemployed?”
Precisely.
personal rant
IMHO, too many
Ed,
Huge cuts could be made in our military budget which is bloated, wasteful and
largely redundant. (I was a USAF Officer and speak with first hand knowledge).
That alone would make an enormous difference.
Try and get Congress to approve it! Fat chance!
Mark Goldes
Co-Founder, Chava Energy
Yes, Mark, this would be the best place to start. But jobs will be
lost, the only issue is which jobs. Congress does not want to cut any
jobs because these are voters. They only want to cut things that will
piss off the fewest number of people who vote. The poor do not vote so
they are
On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.comwrote:
No Steven, what you say is not the issue. The issue is that money has been
lent to the US in various forms and by various people and they want their
money back eventually. Meanwhile they want to be paid interest. The US
On Jan 26, 2013, at 2:11 PM, Eric Walker wrote:
On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 12:16 PM, Edmund Storms
stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
No Steven, what you say is not the issue. The issue is that money
has been lent to the US in various forms and by various people and
they want their money back
Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Pollution is gradually being reduced.
Except in China and India, which is most of the world.
Pollution per dollar of GDP is down in both. China is making rapid strides,
adding nuclear and wind power.
Out of control population growth is
I should have described the difficulty of transition.
When a few companies have changed to fully automated production it is
hard to see how they can be made to use a shorter work week, earlier
retirement, higher taxes etc.To impose those things just on companies
changing to full automation
Technology is only part of the solution.
Second Incomes can be adapted to most of the industrialized world. If we are
wise enough to pass such legislation the pain of transition can be reduced.
See a proposed act for the U.S. Congress at SECOND INCOMES on the Aesop site.
See CHEAP GREEN, on
On Jan 26, 2013, at 2:48 PM, Jed Rothwell wrote:
Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Pollution is gradually being reduced.
Except in China and India, which is most of the world.
Pollution per dollar of GDP is down in both. China is making rapid
strides, adding nuclear and wind
AIR POLLUTION: Plant extremely fast growing forests to sharply reduce it. See
details at
http://www.adamsmithtoday.com/an-australian-solution-to-the-co2-problem. It
could readily be tried in China. Water might be supplied by air wells instead
of desalination.
Mark Goldes
Co-Founder, Chava
Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Pollution per dollar of GDP is down in both. China is making rapid
strides, adding nuclear and wind power.
That does not seem to translate into improvement. Last night the news
showed a picture from space where the pollution was clearly visible.
Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Debt is good within limits, Eric. The problem comes when the amount of
debt exceeds the ability to pay back or even to service, i.e. to pay the
interest. This is why people lost their homes. The US government has now
reached a debt so large that it
Eric wrote:
“I see no need to slash government entitlements that are basically self-funding
and which, if anything, help to bring down costs.”
Care to explain how government entitlements are ‘self-funding’…
And how do they ‘help to bring down costs’…
-Mark
From: Eric Walker
On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 3:35 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.netwrote:
Care to explain how government entitlements are ‘self-funding’…
And how do they ‘help to bring down costs’…
No problem.
Medicare is believed to bring down costs through its bargaining power and
ability to control
Sorry Jed, but your analysis conflicts with every economist that I
have read and I read many. Raising taxes back to Clayton is not
possible because the economy is not growing as fast as it was then so
that the tax rate would have to be a bigger fraction of the income to
provide the same
You simply can’t rely on one-sided references to make important decisions with
these kinds of complex programs...
All articles, regardless of whether they are on a liberal website or
conservative, are one-sided; they usually leave out important points which do
not support the article’s
FYI:
http://www.treasurydirect.gov/govt/reports/ir/ir_expense.htm
Interest on the Federal Debt
Historical Data, Fiscal Year End
2012 $359,796,008,919.49
2011 $454,393,280,417.03
2010 $413,954,825,362.17
2009 $383,071,060,815.42
2008 $451,154,049,950.63
On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 4:16 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.netwrote:
You simply can’t rely on one-sided references to make important decisions
with these kinds of complex programs...
Agreed.
Thus, I find that reading the comment section helps to more accurately
inform me;
I agree, this is extremely dangerous for our economy. The usual solution is to
allow inflation to erase the hard earned money of those that save instead of
spend. If you want to have a bit of fun, consider doing the following.
Take the poorest country in the world and lend each of the
There is always the option of forfeiting growth and trying to be a world
power. Let it be a job to be of China or India. Scrap the military bases,
inside and outside US. Heavily tax the rich to the point of bankruptcy for
those who like to live off unproductive business (Wall Street). Employ the
Ed,
Paul Krugman of Princeton (and a NY Times columnist) believes they are
seriously in error. Robert Reich at Berkeley agrees. This appears to be a case
where conventional belief may prove to be as wrong as it has been with regard
to LENR.
Mark
Mark Goldes
Co-Founder, Chava Energy
CEO,
I think that a competitive market-based system for most things results in the
best price for the end-consumer, but for certain critical needs such as medical
and basic research, some govt/industry cooperation is warranted. This goes
with the caveat that the markets are truly competitive with
I ranted:
IMHO, too many politicians are focusing on a misguided
belief that balancing the national budget is the most
important thing, above everything else, that must be
tackled. What most fail to realize is the fact that
money is nothing more than a contractual
representation of the
From Mark:
How many people could $400 BILLION dollars feed?
Your point being.
Regards,
Steven Vincent Johnson
www.OrionWorks.com
www.zazzle.com/orionworks
tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/newvortex/
On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 5:28 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.netwrote:
I think that a competitive market-based system for most things results in
the best price for the end-consumer, but for certain critical needs such as
medical and basic research, some govt/industry cooperation is
Edmund Storms stor...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
Sorry Jed, but your analysis conflicts with every economist that I have
read and I read many.
Read Krugman.
Raising taxes back to Clayton is not possible because the economy is not
growing as fast as it was then so that the tax rate would have to
Ed and others:
The US net wealth after all debt is deducted is higher now than it has ever
been in US history. Print the money, default or make the citizens of the US
pay it off, it makes almost no difference. Debt is more or less an illusion.
Picking one or the other of the above choices
Notably, F. Hayek, one of the greatest advocates of free market
economics, argued that everyone should receive a basic income or (what
he called a minimum income) regardless of employment. See chapter 9
Security and Freedom in his book _Road to Serfdom_ .
Meant people do NOT like paying taxes . . .
It is a shame we cannot edit these messages.
Krugman and others think this deficit issue has been hyped by people who
want to use it as an excuse to reduce programs they dislike. Right wing
people want to reduce social spending; left wing people want
On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 9:26 PM, Eric Walker eric.wal...@gmail.com wrote:
On Sat, Jan 26, 2013 at 5:28 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net
We also need to look at how the entitlement programs are structured… I’ve
seen examples about how the rules are not structured to encourage one to
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