Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
In case anyone wants to support a good cause: http://www.reefguardians.org On Wednesday, July 8, 2015, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Mark, I understand and I agree with you. Nature thrives around a balance, any chronic source of upset/pollution, be it chemical or electromagnetic, can throw that out of balance. A little poison is good for you... When I first started mapping wildlife disease two years ago, I mapped chronic wasting disease (CWD) in deer near radar stations (all of the maps are on my blog) with a link on my menu. A university PhD candidate emailed me and told me that chronic wasting disease is a possibly a type of Protein/Prion disease http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/about.main Infectious agents of CWD are neither bacteria nor viruses, but are hypothesized to be prions. Prions are infectious proteins without associated nucleic acids. http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/prion-disease. I love my radiation devices but do they love us? Hopefully everyone learned something about radars yesterday... Stewart On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 1:58 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','zeropo...@charter.net'); wrote: Since I was the one who initiated this thread, I feel responsible to clear things up… calm down and take a deep breath! Dave and Stewart, you two have completely missed the point, and Dave, it is clear that you have not read my original post, nor any of the references. Let me also say that I may be a bit of an odd-man-out in the Vort Collective since I have degrees in both Biology and ComputerSci, and it is understandable how someone without the biology background might miss the main point I was trying to make. Please read the following points carefully: 1. the PRF (pulse-repetition-frequency) is NOT the issue or possible ‘cause’ I was referring to in my original post. 2. the references in my post show that protein reactivity CAN BE AFFECTED by THz EM waves IN SOLUTION, causing significant changes to ‘normal’ biochemical processes. Since PROPER protein interactions are ESSENTIAL to living organisms, and exposure to even very low levels can cause this disruption of biochemical processes, it could lead to deleterious effects to the organism. Here is the title to one of the refs which states it very succinctly: “Terahertz underdamped vibrational motion governs protein-ligand binding in solution” Let me provide some explanation as to the significance of the wording in this title: - why ‘underdamped’, and ‘in solution’? Interaction of NON-ionizing EM waves with biological tissue/processes has always been thought to be HIGHLY DAMPED due to the high (salt) water content of biological tissues, thus, not likely to cause much interaction with physical elements (i.e., living cells and various molecules). And this is probably the case for the vast majority of EM frequencies. However, it now appears that protein conformation (physical folding 3D shape) has evolved to be in a state of near criticality which is key to the proteins ability to interact with very specific other proteins or molecules. The underdamped vibrations which the Thz waves cause in the protein, or subunits of the protein, although only lasting picoseconds, are enough to trigger the conformational change BEFORE the protein has a chance to interact with its target protein/molecule. If this is allowed to happen on a continuous basis, it could have very deleterious effects on the health of the organism. 3. If even a minute amount of EM power at very high frequencies makes it to the depth of the coral-building organisms, there is a possibility that it would disrupt some aspect of their biochemical processes, leading to their decline/death. If the radars were only on for a few mins/hours a day, the organisms could probably recover, but when hit with it 24/7/365, their systems eventually degrade causing death. This is a **reasonable** scenario given this new knowledge about how EM can affect protein interactions. Is it the cause of coral and other sea-life deaths??? I don’t know, but wanted to pass it along… 4. Although one of the references was referring to Thz freq’s, it would be reasonable to assume that Ghz or lower freqs might also cause similar disruption to biochemical processes. In looking at this thread, the fact that it got sidetracked is probably because most of my original text was deleted early on and Dave did not go back to read it… -Mark Iverson
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Mark, I understand and I agree with you. Nature thrives around a balance, any chronic source of upset/pollution, be it chemical or electromagnetic, can throw that out of balance. A little poison is good for you... When I first started mapping wildlife disease two years ago, I mapped chronic wasting disease (CWD) in deer near radar stations (all of the maps are on my blog) with a link on my menu. A university PhD candidate emailed me and told me that chronic wasting disease is a possibly a type of Protein/Prion disease http://www.cwd-info.org/index.php/fuseaction/about.main Infectious agents of CWD are neither bacteria nor viruses, but are hypothesized to be prions. Prions are infectious proteins without associated nucleic acids. http://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/condition/prion-disease. I love my radiation devices but do they love us? Hopefully everyone learned something about radars yesterday... Stewart On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 1:58 PM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: Since I was the one who initiated this thread, I feel responsible to clear things up… calm down and take a deep breath! Dave and Stewart, you two have completely missed the point, and Dave, it is clear that you have not read my original post, nor any of the references. Let me also say that I may be a bit of an odd-man-out in the Vort Collective since I have degrees in both Biology and ComputerSci, and it is understandable how someone without the biology background might miss the main point I was trying to make. Please read the following points carefully: 1. the PRF (pulse-repetition-frequency) is NOT the issue or possible ‘cause’ I was referring to in my original post. 2. the references in my post show that protein reactivity CAN BE AFFECTED by THz EM waves IN SOLUTION, causing significant changes to ‘normal’ biochemical processes. Since PROPER protein interactions are ESSENTIAL to living organisms, and exposure to even very low levels can cause this disruption of biochemical processes, it could lead to deleterious effects to the organism. Here is the title to one of the refs which states it very succinctly: “Terahertz underdamped vibrational motion governs protein-ligand binding in solution” Let me provide some explanation as to the significance of the wording in this title: - why ‘underdamped’, and ‘in solution’? Interaction of NON-ionizing EM waves with biological tissue/processes has always been thought to be HIGHLY DAMPED due to the high (salt) water content of biological tissues, thus, not likely to cause much interaction with physical elements (i.e., living cells and various molecules). And this is probably the case for the vast majority of EM frequencies. However, it now appears that protein conformation (physical folding 3D shape) has evolved to be in a state of near criticality which is key to the proteins ability to interact with very specific other proteins or molecules. The underdamped vibrations which the Thz waves cause in the protein, or subunits of the protein, although only lasting picoseconds, are enough to trigger the conformational change BEFORE the protein has a chance to interact with its target protein/molecule. If this is allowed to happen on a continuous basis, it could have very deleterious effects on the health of the organism. 3. If even a minute amount of EM power at very high frequencies makes it to the depth of the coral-building organisms, there is a possibility that it would disrupt some aspect of their biochemical processes, leading to their decline/death. If the radars were only on for a few mins/hours a day, the organisms could probably recover, but when hit with it 24/7/365, their systems eventually degrade causing death. This is a **reasonable** scenario given this new knowledge about how EM can affect protein interactions. Is it the cause of coral and other sea-life deaths??? I don’t know, but wanted to pass it along… 4. Although one of the references was referring to Thz freq’s, it would be reasonable to assume that Ghz or lower freqs might also cause similar disruption to biochemical processes. In looking at this thread, the fact that it got sidetracked is probably because most of my original text was deleted early on and Dave did not go back to read it… -Mark Iverson
RE: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Since I was the one who initiated this thread, I feel responsible to clear things up… calm down and take a deep breath! Dave and Stewart, you two have completely missed the point, and Dave, it is clear that you have not read my original post, nor any of the references. Let me also say that I may be a bit of an odd-man-out in the Vort Collective since I have degrees in both Biology and ComputerSci, and it is understandable how someone without the biology background might miss the main point I was trying to make. Please read the following points carefully: 1. the PRF (pulse-repetition-frequency) is NOT the issue or possible ‘cause’ I was referring to in my original post. 2. the references in my post show that protein reactivity CAN BE AFFECTED by THz EM waves IN SOLUTION, causing significant changes to ‘normal’ biochemical processes. Since PROPER protein interactions are ESSENTIAL to living organisms, and exposure to even very low levels can cause this disruption of biochemical processes, it could lead to deleterious effects to the organism. Here is the title to one of the refs which states it very succinctly: “Terahertz underdamped vibrational motion governs protein-ligand binding in solution” Let me provide some explanation as to the significance of the wording in this title: - why ‘underdamped’, and ‘in solution’? Interaction of NON-ionizing EM waves with biological tissue/processes has always been thought to be HIGHLY DAMPED due to the high (salt) water content of biological tissues, thus, not likely to cause much interaction with physical elements (i.e., living cells and various molecules). And this is probably the case for the vast majority of EM frequencies. However, it now appears that protein conformation (physical folding 3D shape) has evolved to be in a state of near criticality which is key to the proteins ability to interact with very specific other proteins or molecules. The underdamped vibrations which the Thz waves cause in the protein, or subunits of the protein, although only lasting picoseconds, are enough to trigger the conformational change BEFORE the protein has a chance to interact with its target protein/molecule. If this is allowed to happen on a continuous basis, it could have very deleterious effects on the health of the organism. 3. If even a minute amount of EM power at very high frequencies makes it to the depth of the coral-building organisms, there is a possibility that it would disrupt some aspect of their biochemical processes, leading to their decline/death. If the radars were only on for a few mins/hours a day, the organisms could probably recover, but when hit with it 24/7/365, their systems eventually degrade causing death. This is a *reasonable* scenario given this new knowledge about how EM can affect protein interactions. Is it the cause of coral and other sea-life deaths??? I don’t know, but wanted to pass it along… 4. Although one of the references was referring to Thz freq’s, it would be reasonable to assume that Ghz or lower freqs might also cause similar disruption to biochemical processes. In looking at this thread, the fact that it got sidetracked is probably because most of my original text was deleted early on and Dave did not go back to read it… -Mark Iverson
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
The radar pulse rate does not effect the penetration into the water. In other words, the 200 to 1000 Hz rate is applied to the carrier and does not independently appear anywhere else. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 8:12 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... VLF radio waves (3–30 kHz) can penetrate seawater to a depth of approximately 20 meters. Hence a submarine at shallow depth can use these frequencies. Most of the radars pulse at 200-1000 Hz. Most of the coral disease is in shallow water 20 meters On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Boweryjabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPointzeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Marine life on the North Shore of Kauai, HI: https://www.facebook.com/honulilley/media_set?set=a.10152814052996556.1073742148.574581555type=3pnref=story Electrons/charged ions will discharge along pointed surfaces, decaying them (that is why airplane wings have wicks on tips/trailing surfaces to discharge electrical buildup) Spotted reef fish turning black and fins rotting off Sharks going belly up for no known reason Shark fins showing signs of strong electrical discharge Turtle flippers/shell shwing signs of decaying along edges and getting eaten to the bone by cleaning fish Coral reef 70-80% dead polyps for 10 miles CaCO3 skeleton of 4 million year old coral reef is disassociating and suspended in the seawater. Only one small river discharges in area with small amount of mud. pH is normal in river as well as chemicals within limits Kauai is a remote island with less tourists than others Big Island coral reef is doing fine 30 million pulsed watts of radars atop the hill in North Kauai, ~ 2 terrwatts EIRP Lots of military warships/wargames off North shore, including electronic warfare/directed energy weapons Party on dudes. Stewart On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 11:36 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: JoJo sent me a message to post, so I will post. We will agree to disagree about the radars/antennas near seawater. I don't disagree electrodes can stimulate growth, they can also kill it. http://fishshocker.net/ Stewart -- Forwarded message -- From: jojoiznar...@gmail.com Date: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 10:26 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... To: cheme...@gmail.com Stewart, this is Jojo Jaro. I have been following your posting on vortex regarding your hypothesis that electricity is killing the corals. I believe you are wrong on that and you are barking up the wrong tree. If anything, mild electricity you documented from radars etc., would help corals grow faster rather than kill them. Google “Biorock” and “mineral accretion” were they zap 2 electrodes under seawater with 2V up to 12 V of electricity to stimulate coral growth. The corals, oysters, fish and other marine creatures get attracted to the cathode and grow profusely up to 10 time faster. Electricity at the levels you documented will increase coral growth, not kill them. My own computations for my onshore Pearl oyster farm indicates that zapping with 1.3 v would create a current of about .001 A which would not only be harmless to pearl oysters (Pinctada Maxima sp), but also stimulate faster growth. Multiple studies have documented this. Just google. Please copy and paste this email on Vortex so that people don’t waste time barking up the wrong tree. The simpler reason for coral death is plain old pollution and eutrophication of coastal waters. Have you done a correlation study of coral deaths versus pollution levels in said waters. I believe that if you do, you will find that there would be a strong correlation, much stronger than your radar correlation. Could it simply be that radar station locations you documented tend to be located in coastal populated areas which would tend to pollute the coastal seawater? Jojo On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 11:29 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Stray electrical currents from electromagnetic induction are an ongoing problem in saltwater aquariums - diseased fish and marine life. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1982006 In Kauai, the North shore reef fish are turning black and some of the sharks are going belly up near the radar stations. The fins of the green sea turtles and sharks in the area are getting eaten away. It is not the voltage potential that gets you, but the induced electrical currents as the potential seeks ground, if there is one. The ocean/seawater makes a very good ground. Many receiving antennas near the coast run their ground into the ocean. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_plane To function as a ground plane, the conducting surface must be at least a quarter of the wavelength https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavelength (*λ*/4) of the radio waves in size. In lower frequency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency antennas, such as the mast radiators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mast_radiator used for broadcast antennas, the Earth itself (or a body of water such as a salt marsh or ocean) is used as a ground plane. Small waves at surface of ocean breaking over shallow reef also act as antennas to capture higher frequency EMF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tIZUhu21sQ Stewart On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. hoyt-stea...@cox.net wrote: This must be done blind but even then, the experimenter effect ( Marylyn Schlitz) would override the results ( Experimenter effect ). *From:* James Bowery [mailto:jabow...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, July 7, 2015 7:07 AM *To:* vortex-l *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Possible cause
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
The radar RF signal is not being rectified by the water into a DC current like your chart is assuming. The signal is actually reflected from the surface layers with extremely small penetration. The pulse rate has nothing to do with the high frequency RF reflection behavior for a typical installation. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 9:50 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced electrical currents in seawater surface around just one ship's antennas. Now imagine 27 high power coastal based radars/antennas and 45 warship radars/antennas in one area. http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/14/how-cousteau-and-noaa-killed-the-reef/ Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3] Current Reaction 1 milliamp Just a faint tingle. 5 milliamps Slight shock felt. Disturbing, but not painful. Most people can “let go.” However, strong involuntary movements can cause injuries. 6-25 milliamps (women)† 9-30 milliamps (men) Painful shock. Muscular control is lost. This is the range where “freezing currents” start. It may not be possible to “let go.” 50-150 milliamps Extremely painful shock, respiratory arrest (breathing stops), severe muscle contractions. Flexor muscles may cause holding on; extensor muscles may cause intense pushing away. Death is possible. 1,000-4,300 milliamps (1-4.3 amps) Ventricular fibrillation (heart pumping action not rhythmic) occurs. Muscles contract; nerve damage occurs. Death is likely. 10,000 milliamps (10 amps) Cardiac arrest and severe burns occur. Death is probable. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:43 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Low pulsed frequency is a contradiction in terms. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Dave, the pulse train is a square wave, with the on amplitude approx 900' long or longer depending upon duty cycle, bouncing between clouds/planes and the suface of the ocean Just one weather radar has an EIRP of 32 billion watts of power, which gets ducted and scattered by planes and the atmosphere, more during storms. Mildly shocking biology with every pulse, depending upon impedence Electricity can kill you in a nanosecond, each radar pulse is 1000 times longer that that in duration. Admit it, you sparkies screwed up :) Stewart On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: The radar pulse rate does not effect the penetration into the water. In other words, the 200 to 1000 Hz rate is applied to the carrier and does not independently appear anywhere else. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','cheme...@gmail.com'); To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vortex-l@eskimo.com'); Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 8:12 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... VLF https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_frequency radio waves (3–30 kHz https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertz) can penetrate seawater to a depth of approximately 20 meters. Hence a submarine at shallow depth can use these frequencies. Most of the radars pulse at 200-1000 Hz. Most of the coral disease is in shallow water 20 meters On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','cheme...@gmail.com'); wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Of course if you limit your impact to those transmitters that communicate with submarines then these very low frequency signals do travel into the deeper water. But, so far it appears that you have placed all type of radars, etc. into the same category, which is not reasonable. From what I read in the news there are ocean dead zones in many locations that have little or nothing at all to do with RF transmissions. Many reefs are dying where no transmitters are located nearby to contribute to the problem. The concern about warming waters is a major one that is often used to explain the dying and that is more likely than high frequency RF transmissions. Dave -Original Message- From: James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 10:07 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Thanks for the numbers. This should be relatively straight forward to test: Set up two salt water aquariums supporting comparable coral populations. Run them for a year or so to see they are stable. Then subject one of them to low frequency EM radiation. PS: What I mean contraction in terms is that pulse implies high frequency components and, indeed, is usually illustrated by time differential on a square wave to filter out the low frequency components. However, your point is well taken -- a short duration transmission of a high power low frequency signal will penetrate salt water -- with a very drastic reduction in power with depth, as your numbers show. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:50 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced electrical currents in seawater surface around just one ship's antennas. Now imagine 27 high power coastal based radars/antennas and 45 warship radars/antennas in one area. http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/14/how-cousteau-and-noaa-killed-the-reef/ Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3] Current Reaction 1 milliamp Just a faint tingle. 5 milliamps Slight shock felt. Disturbing, but not painful. Most people can “let go.” However, strong involuntary movements can cause injuries. 6-25 milliamps (women)† 9-30 milliamps (men) Painful shock. Muscular control is lost. This is the range where “freezing currents” start. It may not be possible to “let go.” 50-150 milliamps Extremely painful shock, respiratory arrest (breathing stops), severe muscle contractions. Flexor muscles may cause holding on; extensor muscles may cause intense pushing away. Death is possible. 1,000-4,300 milliamps (1-4.3 amps) Ventricular fibrillation (heart pumping action not rhythmic) occurs. Muscles contract; nerve damage occurs. Death is likely. 10,000 milliamps (10 amps) Cardiac arrest and severe burns occur. Death is probable. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:43 AM, James Boweryjabow...@gmail.com wrote: Low pulsed frequency is a contradiction in terms. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Boweryjabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
How many dead fish do we have to have and dead birds falling from the sky to have before you sparkies understand your mistake? http://darkmattersalot.com/2014/01/12/florida-2/ On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:48 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: The radar RF signal is not being rectified by the water into a DC current like your chart is assuming. The signal is actually reflected from the surface layers with extremely small penetration. The pulse rate has nothing to do with the high frequency RF reflection behavior for a typical installation. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 9:50 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced electrical currents in seawater surface around just one ship's antennas. Now imagine 27 high power coastal based radars/antennas and 45 warship radars/antennas in one area. http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/14/how-cousteau-and-noaa-killed-the-reef/ Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3] http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2002-123/2002-123f.html#end3 *Current* *Reaction* 1 milliamp Just a faint tingle. 5 milliamps Slight shock felt. Disturbing, but not painful. Most people can “let go.” However, strong involuntary movements can cause injuries. 6-25 milliamps (women)† 9-30 milliamps (men) Painful shock. Muscular control is lost. This is the range where “freezing currents” start. It may not be possible to “let go.” 50-150 milliamps Extremely painful shock, respiratory arrest (breathing stops), severe muscle contractions. Flexor muscles may cause holding on; extensor muscles may cause intense pushing away. Death is possible. 1,000-4,300 milliamps (1-4.3 amps) Ventricular fibrillation (heart pumping action not rhythmic) occurs. Muscles contract; nerve damage occurs. Death is likely. 10,000 milliamps (10 amps) Cardiac arrest and severe burns occur. Death is probable. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:43 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Low pulsed frequency is a contradiction in terms. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
This is a good article http://what-when-how.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/tmp1A545_thumb.jpg On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:22 PM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: David, Of course the low frequency square pulses show up on receivers, that is how pulsed doppler works! http://www.rfcafe.com/references/articles/images/Signal-Analysis-Modern-Radar-R-S-6.jpg When it is on (every pulse) a weather radar puts out ~1,000,000 WATTS, (32 billion watts EIRP) Stewart On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:10 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Come on now Stewart. If you take the time to analyze the spectrum of a pulsed radar signal, you will find that all of the energy is contained in a location surrounding the carrier frequency. Also, how well do you think a dish radar antenna being feed by a bandwidth limited waveguide is going to radiate those 200 to 1000 Hz signals? If you can show me where any significant amount of that low frequency is radiated I will assume that you are knowledgeable in RF design. It is easy to convince people that know nothing about radio and radar systems to be concerned about unimportant issues. And, as everyone knows, statistics can prove just about anything that you wish to prove based upon the restrictions that are placed upon the data that is analyzed. The same type of reasoning is used to keep kids from being vaccinated or cellular antenna locations from being located in the ideal places. We need real science instead of variable statistics to settle these issues properly. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Dave, the pulse train is a square wave, with the on amplitude approx 900' long or longer depending upon duty cycle, bouncing between clouds/planes and the suface of the ocean Just one weather radar has an EIRP of 32 billion watts of power, which gets ducted and scattered by planes and the atmosphere, more during storms. Mildly shocking biology with every pulse, depending upon impedence Electricity can kill you in a nanosecond, each radar pulse is 1000 times longer that that in duration. Admit it, you sparkies screwed up :) Stewart On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: The radar pulse rate does not effect the penetration into the water. In other words, the 200 to 1000 Hz rate is applied to the carrier and does not independently appear anywhere else. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 8:12 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... VLF https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_frequency radio waves (3–30 kHz https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertz) can penetrate seawater to a depth of approximately 20 meters. Hence a submarine at shallow depth can use these frequencies. Most of the radars pulse at 200-1000 Hz. Most of the coral disease is in shallow water 20 meters On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
That was the picture, this is the article http://what-when-how.com/remote-sensing-from-air-and-space/theory-radar-remote-sensing-part-1/ On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:24 PM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: This is a good article http://what-when-how.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/tmp1A545_thumb.jpg On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:22 PM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: David, Of course the low frequency square pulses show up on receivers, that is how pulsed doppler works! http://www.rfcafe.com/references/articles/images/Signal-Analysis-Modern-Radar-R-S-6.jpg When it is on (every pulse) a weather radar puts out ~1,000,000 WATTS, (32 billion watts EIRP) Stewart On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:10 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Come on now Stewart. If you take the time to analyze the spectrum of a pulsed radar signal, you will find that all of the energy is contained in a location surrounding the carrier frequency. Also, how well do you think a dish radar antenna being feed by a bandwidth limited waveguide is going to radiate those 200 to 1000 Hz signals? If you can show me where any significant amount of that low frequency is radiated I will assume that you are knowledgeable in RF design. It is easy to convince people that know nothing about radio and radar systems to be concerned about unimportant issues. And, as everyone knows, statistics can prove just about anything that you wish to prove based upon the restrictions that are placed upon the data that is analyzed. The same type of reasoning is used to keep kids from being vaccinated or cellular antenna locations from being located in the ideal places. We need real science instead of variable statistics to settle these issues properly. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Dave, the pulse train is a square wave, with the on amplitude approx 900' long or longer depending upon duty cycle, bouncing between clouds/planes and the suface of the ocean Just one weather radar has an EIRP of 32 billion watts of power, which gets ducted and scattered by planes and the atmosphere, more during storms. Mildly shocking biology with every pulse, depending upon impedence Electricity can kill you in a nanosecond, each radar pulse is 1000 times longer that that in duration. Admit it, you sparkies screwed up :) Stewart On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: The radar pulse rate does not effect the penetration into the water. In other words, the 200 to 1000 Hz rate is applied to the carrier and does not independently appear anywhere else. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 8:12 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... VLF https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_frequency radio waves (3–30 kHz https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertz) can penetrate seawater to a depth of approximately 20 meters. Hence a submarine at shallow depth can use these frequencies. Most of the radars pulse at 200-1000 Hz. Most of the coral disease is in shallow water 20 meters On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
I admit runoff can kill reefs I admit low pH can kill reefs I admit walking on reefs can kill reefs North Shore of Kauai has little of that Nobody ever considered radiation, which BTW has been shown to be bad for biology On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:00 PM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: No, I have concentrated on pulsed radars, which pulse at 0-1000 Hz, considered very low frequencies. Dave you are generalizing and have done no research yourself. Here is some: http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/19/and-you-thought-the-bp-oil-spill-was-bad/ On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Of course if you limit your impact to those transmitters that communicate with submarines then these very low frequency signals do travel into the deeper water. But, so far it appears that you have placed all type of radars, etc. into the same category, which is not reasonable. From what I read in the news there are ocean dead zones in many locations that have little or nothing at all to do with RF transmissions. Many reefs are dying where no transmitters are located nearby to contribute to the problem. The concern about warming waters is a major one that is often used to explain the dying and that is more likely than high frequency RF transmissions. Dave -Original Message- From: James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 10:07 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Thanks for the numbers. This should be relatively straight forward to test: Set up two salt water aquariums supporting comparable coral populations. Run them for a year or so to see they are stable. Then subject one of them to low frequency EM radiation. PS: What I mean contraction in terms is that pulse implies high frequency components and, indeed, is usually illustrated by time differential on a square wave to filter out the low frequency components. However, your point is well taken -- a short duration transmission of a high power low frequency signal will penetrate salt water -- with a very drastic reduction in power with depth, as your numbers show. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:50 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced electrical currents in seawater surface around just one ship's antennas. Now imagine 27 high power coastal based radars/antennas and 45 warship radars/antennas in one area. http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/14/how-cousteau-and-noaa-killed-the-reef/ Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3] http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2002-123/2002-123f.html#end3 *Current* *Reaction* 1 milliamp Just a faint tingle. 5 milliamps Slight shock felt. Disturbing, but not painful. Most people can “let go.” However, strong involuntary movements can cause injuries. 6-25 milliamps (women)† 9-30 milliamps (men) Painful shock. Muscular control is lost. This is the range where “freezing currents” start. It may not be possible to “let go.” 50-150 milliamps Extremely painful shock, respiratory arrest (breathing stops), severe muscle contractions. Flexor muscles may cause holding on; extensor muscles may cause intense pushing away. Death is possible. 1,000-4,300 milliamps (1-4.3 amps) Ventricular fibrillation (heart pumping action not rhythmic) occurs. Muscles contract; nerve damage occurs. Death is likely. 10,000 milliamps (10 amps) Cardiac arrest and severe burns occur. Death is probable. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:43 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Low pulsed frequency is a contradiction in terms. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
How many counter examples to your hypothesis do you need before you at least admit there may be more than one cause of dying coral reefs? On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 12:56 PM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: How many dead fish do we have to have and dead birds falling from the sky to have before you sparkies understand your mistake? http://darkmattersalot.com/2014/01/12/florida-2/ On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:48 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: The radar RF signal is not being rectified by the water into a DC current like your chart is assuming. The signal is actually reflected from the surface layers with extremely small penetration. The pulse rate has nothing to do with the high frequency RF reflection behavior for a typical installation. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 9:50 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced electrical currents in seawater surface around just one ship's antennas. Now imagine 27 high power coastal based radars/antennas and 45 warship radars/antennas in one area. http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/14/how-cousteau-and-noaa-killed-the-reef/ Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3] http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2002-123/2002-123f.html#end3 *Current* *Reaction* 1 milliamp Just a faint tingle. 5 milliamps Slight shock felt. Disturbing, but not painful. Most people can “let go.” However, strong involuntary movements can cause injuries. 6-25 milliamps (women)† 9-30 milliamps (men) Painful shock. Muscular control is lost. This is the range where “freezing currents” start. It may not be possible to “let go.” 50-150 milliamps Extremely painful shock, respiratory arrest (breathing stops), severe muscle contractions. Flexor muscles may cause holding on; extensor muscles may cause intense pushing away. Death is possible. 1,000-4,300 milliamps (1-4.3 amps) Ventricular fibrillation (heart pumping action not rhythmic) occurs. Muscles contract; nerve damage occurs. Death is likely. 10,000 milliamps (10 amps) Cardiac arrest and severe burns occur. Death is probable. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:43 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Low pulsed frequency is a contradiction in terms. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
No, I have concentrated on pulsed radars, which pulse at 0-1000 Hz, considered very low frequencies. Dave you are generalizing and have done no research yourself. Here is some: http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/19/and-you-thought-the-bp-oil-spill-was-bad/ On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Of course if you limit your impact to those transmitters that communicate with submarines then these very low frequency signals do travel into the deeper water. But, so far it appears that you have placed all type of radars, etc. into the same category, which is not reasonable. From what I read in the news there are ocean dead zones in many locations that have little or nothing at all to do with RF transmissions. Many reefs are dying where no transmitters are located nearby to contribute to the problem. The concern about warming waters is a major one that is often used to explain the dying and that is more likely than high frequency RF transmissions. Dave -Original Message- From: James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 10:07 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Thanks for the numbers. This should be relatively straight forward to test: Set up two salt water aquariums supporting comparable coral populations. Run them for a year or so to see they are stable. Then subject one of them to low frequency EM radiation. PS: What I mean contraction in terms is that pulse implies high frequency components and, indeed, is usually illustrated by time differential on a square wave to filter out the low frequency components. However, your point is well taken -- a short duration transmission of a high power low frequency signal will penetrate salt water -- with a very drastic reduction in power with depth, as your numbers show. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:50 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced electrical currents in seawater surface around just one ship's antennas. Now imagine 27 high power coastal based radars/antennas and 45 warship radars/antennas in one area. http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/14/how-cousteau-and-noaa-killed-the-reef/ Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3] http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2002-123/2002-123f.html#end3 *Current* *Reaction* 1 milliamp Just a faint tingle. 5 milliamps Slight shock felt. Disturbing, but not painful. Most people can “let go.” However, strong involuntary movements can cause injuries. 6-25 milliamps (women)† 9-30 milliamps (men) Painful shock. Muscular control is lost. This is the range where “freezing currents” start. It may not be possible to “let go.” 50-150 milliamps Extremely painful shock, respiratory arrest (breathing stops), severe muscle contractions. Flexor muscles may cause holding on; extensor muscles may cause intense pushing away. Death is possible. 1,000-4,300 milliamps (1-4.3 amps) Ventricular fibrillation (heart pumping action not rhythmic) occurs. Muscles contract; nerve damage occurs. Death is likely. 10,000 milliamps (10 amps) Cardiac arrest and severe burns occur. Death is probable. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:43 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Low pulsed frequency is a contradiction in terms. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
It is up to those that propose problems such as you are doing to prove that the transmitters are a big problem for society. Some people would also be concerned about the safety of air transportation without radar or radio guidance. Are you ready to give up on your cellular radios and other modern devices? You are going to have a difficult time attempting to eliminate radio and radar from the world! Please show me how the 200 to 1000 Hz signal is going to be radiated by a typical radar antenna system. I can tell you that you will not be able to show that and I am confident that you can not answer that question in an accepted engineering manner. Until you can do so, you should not keep repeating something that all of us radio engineers know is inaccurate. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 1:56 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... How many dead fish do we have to have and dead birds falling from the sky to have before you sparkies understand your mistake? http://darkmattersalot.com/2014/01/12/florida-2/ On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:48 PM, David Robersondlrober...@aol.com wrote: The radar RF signal is not being rectified by the water into a DC current like your chart is assuming. The signal is actually reflected from the surface layers with extremely small penetration. The pulse rate has nothing to do with the high frequency RF reflection behavior for a typical installation. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 9:50 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced electrical currents in seawater surface around just one ship's antennas. Now imagine 27 high power coastal based radars/antennas and 45 warship radars/antennas in one area. http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/14/how-cousteau-and-noaa-killed-the-reef/ Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3] Current Reaction 1 milliamp Just a faint tingle. 5 milliamps Slight shock felt. Disturbing, but not painful. Most people can “let go.” However, strong involuntary movements can cause injuries. 6-25 milliamps (women)† 9-30 milliamps (men) Painful shock. Muscular control is lost. This is the range where “freezing currents” start. It may not be possible to “let go.” 50-150 milliamps Extremely painful shock, respiratory arrest (breathing stops), severe muscle contractions. Flexor muscles may cause holding on; extensor muscles may cause intense pushing away. Death is possible. 1,000-4,300 milliamps (1-4.3 amps) Ventricular fibrillation (heart pumping action not rhythmic) occurs. Muscles contract; nerve damage occurs. Death is likely. 10,000 milliamps (10 amps) Cardiac arrest and severe burns occur. Death is probable. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:43 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Low pulsed frequency is a contradiction in terms. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 7:01 AM
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Last time I argued with you about this you told me you got shocked by an RF antenna You proved my point. I loved radio, but I like Pandora better and that comes through a cable (at least to my house :)) Stewart On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:41 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Not really Stewart. I have worked on radios and theory for many years and I understand it quite well. You are missing the point about the pulse repetition rate and its relationship to the radiated signal. The low frequencies are not radiated by a very band limited high frequency RF transmission system. That is trivial and anyone with RF experience understands it. You are not well informed about how these systems operate and are making assumptions that do not exist. Have you spent many years designing radios or putting systems into operation? You should let all the vortex readers know about your background in RF transmitters so that they can judge the accuracy of your predictions. I am happy to discuss my career in that field. Much of the modern world depends upon RF communications and I am quite proud of the work I have done in that area. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 2:00 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... No, I have concentrated on pulsed radars, which pulse at 0-1000 Hz, considered very low frequencies. Dave you are generalizing and have done no research yourself. Here is some: http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/19/and-you-thought-the-bp-oil-spill-was-bad/ On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Of course if you limit your impact to those transmitters that communicate with submarines then these very low frequency signals do travel into the deeper water. But, so far it appears that you have placed all type of radars, etc. into the same category, which is not reasonable. From what I read in the news there are ocean dead zones in many locations that have little or nothing at all to do with RF transmissions. Many reefs are dying where no transmitters are located nearby to contribute to the problem. The concern about warming waters is a major one that is often used to explain the dying and that is more likely than high frequency RF transmissions. Dave -Original Message- From: James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 10:07 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Thanks for the numbers. This should be relatively straight forward to test: Set up two salt water aquariums supporting comparable coral populations. Run them for a year or so to see they are stable. Then subject one of them to low frequency EM radiation. PS: What I mean contraction in terms is that pulse implies high frequency components and, indeed, is usually illustrated by time differential on a square wave to filter out the low frequency components. However, your point is well taken -- a short duration transmission of a high power low frequency signal will penetrate salt water -- with a very drastic reduction in power with depth, as your numbers show. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:50 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced electrical currents in seawater surface around just one ship's antennas. Now imagine 27 high power coastal based radars/antennas and 45 warship radars/antennas in one area. http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/14/how-cousteau-and-noaa-killed-the-reef/ Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3] http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2002-123/2002-123f.html#end3 *Current* *Reaction* 1 milliamp Just a faint tingle. 5 milliamps Slight shock felt. Disturbing, but not painful. Most people can “let go.” However, strong involuntary movements can cause injuries. 6-25 milliamps (women)† 9-30 milliamps (men) Painful shock. Muscular control is lost. This is the range where “freezing currents” start. It may not be possible to “let go.” 50-150 milliamps Extremely painful shock, respiratory arrest (breathing stops), severe muscle contractions. Flexor muscles may cause holding on; extensor muscles may cause intense pushing away. Death is possible. 1,000-4,300 milliamps (1-4.3 amps) Ventricular fibrillation (heart pumping action not rhythmic) occurs. Muscles contract; nerve damage occurs. Death is likely. 10,000 milliamps (10 amps) Cardiac
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Not really Stewart. I have worked on radios and theory for many years and I understand it quite well. You are missing the point about the pulse repetition rate and its relationship to the radiated signal. The low frequencies are not radiated by a very band limited high frequency RF transmission system. That is trivial and anyone with RF experience understands it. You are not well informed about how these systems operate and are making assumptions that do not exist. Have you spent many years designing radios or putting systems into operation? You should let all the vortex readers know about your background in RF transmitters so that they can judge the accuracy of your predictions. I am happy to discuss my career in that field. Much of the modern world depends upon RF communications and I am quite proud of the work I have done in that area. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 2:00 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... No, I have concentrated on pulsed radars, which pulse at 0-1000 Hz, considered very low frequencies. Dave you are generalizing and have done no research yourself. Here is some: http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/19/and-you-thought-the-bp-oil-spill-was-bad/ On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, David Robersondlrober...@aol.com wrote: Of course if you limit your impact to those transmitters that communicate with submarines then these very low frequency signals do travel into the deeper water. But, so far it appears that you have placed all type of radars, etc. into the same category, which is not reasonable. From what I read in the news there are ocean dead zones in many locations that have little or nothing at all to do with RF transmissions. Many reefs are dying where no transmitters are located nearby to contribute to the problem. The concern about warming waters is a major one that is often used to explain the dying and that is more likely than high frequency RF transmissions. Dave -Original Message- From: James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 10:07 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Thanks for the numbers. This should be relatively straight forward to test: Set up two salt water aquariums supporting comparable coral populations. Run them for a year or so to see they are stable. Then subject one of them to low frequency EM radiation. PS: What I mean contraction in terms is that pulse implies high frequency components and, indeed, is usually illustrated by time differential on a square wave to filter out the low frequency components. However, your point is well taken -- a short duration transmission of a high power low frequency signal will penetrate salt water -- with a very drastic reduction in power with depth, as your numbers show. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:50 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced electrical currents in seawater surface around just one ship's antennas. Now imagine 27 high power coastal based radars/antennas and 45 warship radars/antennas in one area. http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/14/how-cousteau-and-noaa-killed-the-reef/ Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3] Current Reaction 1 milliamp Just a faint tingle
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
David, all doppler weather, FAA, military radars send pulse trains at 200-1000 Hz. Just google doppler radar, they are ALL pulsed signals. The carrier frequency (while they are on) determines how well the pulses are absorbed in things like water. 2.5 - 6 GHz (microwave oven, wifi, weather radars) are absorbed/attenuated well by water. I am not saying give up on all radars and electronic gadgets, just be smart. Let's make sure nature does not have a limit on how much EMF we can blast into the atmosphere 24/7 into a given area. That's all. No conspiracy theories, chemtrails, little green men. Stewart On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:29 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: It is up to those that propose problems such as you are doing to prove that the transmitters are a big problem for society. Some people would also be concerned about the safety of air transportation without radar or radio guidance. Are you ready to give up on your cellular radios and other modern devices? You are going to have a difficult time attempting to eliminate radio and radar from the world! Please show me how the 200 to 1000 Hz signal is going to be radiated by a typical radar antenna system. I can tell you that you will not be able to show that and I am confident that you can not answer that question in an accepted engineering manner. Until you can do so, you should not keep repeating something that all of us radio engineers know is inaccurate. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 1:56 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... How many dead fish do we have to have and dead birds falling from the sky to have before you sparkies understand your mistake? http://darkmattersalot.com/2014/01/12/florida-2/ On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:48 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: The radar RF signal is not being rectified by the water into a DC current like your chart is assuming. The signal is actually reflected from the surface layers with extremely small penetration. The pulse rate has nothing to do with the high frequency RF reflection behavior for a typical installation. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 9:50 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced electrical currents in seawater surface around just one ship's antennas. Now imagine 27 high power coastal based radars/antennas and 45 warship radars/antennas in one area. http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/14/how-cousteau-and-noaa-killed-the-reef/ Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3] http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2002-123/2002-123f.html#end3 *Current* *Reaction* 1 milliamp Just a faint tingle. 5 milliamps Slight shock felt. Disturbing, but not painful. Most people can “let go.” However, strong involuntary movements can cause injuries. 6-25 milliamps (women)† 9-30 milliamps (men) Painful shock. Muscular control is lost. This is the range where “freezing currents” start. It may not be possible to “let go.” 50-150 milliamps Extremely painful shock, respiratory arrest (breathing stops), severe muscle contractions. Flexor muscles may cause holding on; extensor muscles may cause intense pushing away. Death is possible. 1,000-4,300 milliamps (1-4.3 amps) Ventricular fibrillation (heart pumping action not rhythmic) occurs. Muscles contract; nerve damage occurs. Death is likely. 10,000 milliamps (10 amps) Cardiac arrest and severe burns occur. Death is probable. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:43 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Low pulsed frequency is a contradiction in terms. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Come on now Stewart. If you take the time to analyze the spectrum of a pulsed radar signal, you will find that all of the energy is contained in a location surrounding the carrier frequency. Also, how well do you think a dish radar antenna being feed by a bandwidth limited waveguide is going to radiate those 200 to 1000 Hz signals? If you can show me where any significant amount of that low frequency is radiated I will assume that you are knowledgeable in RF design. It is easy to convince people that know nothing about radio and radar systems to be concerned about unimportant issues. And, as everyone knows, statistics can prove just about anything that you wish to prove based upon the restrictions that are placed upon the data that is analyzed. The same type of reasoning is used to keep kids from being vaccinated or cellular antenna locations from being located in the ideal places. We need real science instead of variable statistics to settle these issues properly. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Dave, the pulse train is a square wave, with the on amplitude approx 900' long or longer depending upon duty cycle, bouncing between clouds/planes and the suface of the ocean Just one weather radar has an EIRP of 32 billion watts of power, which gets ducted and scattered by planes and the atmosphere, more during storms. Mildly shocking biology with every pulse, depending upon impedence Electricity can kill you in a nanosecond, each radar pulse is 1000 times longer that that in duration. Admit it, you sparkies screwed up :) Stewart On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, David Robersondlrober...@aol.com wrote: The radar pulse rate does not effect the penetration into the water. In other words, the 200 to 1000 Hz rate is applied to the carrier and does not independently appear anywhere else. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 8:12 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... VLF radio waves (3–30 kHz) can penetrate seawater to a depth of approximately 20 meters. Hence a submarine at shallow depth can use these frequencies. Most of the radars pulse at 200-1000 Hz. Most of the coral disease is in shallow water 20 meters On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
OK, this is how the 200-1000 Hz signal is propogated http://www.nwas.org/committees/avnwinterwx/doppler_weather_radar_overview.htm A large parabolic dish antenna works well. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:29 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: It is up to those that propose problems such as you are doing to prove that the transmitters are a big problem for society. Some people would also be concerned about the safety of air transportation without radar or radio guidance. Are you ready to give up on your cellular radios and other modern devices? You are going to have a difficult time attempting to eliminate radio and radar from the world! Please show me how the 200 to 1000 Hz signal is going to be radiated by a typical radar antenna system. I can tell you that you will not be able to show that and I am confident that you can not answer that question in an accepted engineering manner. Until you can do so, you should not keep repeating something that all of us radio engineers know is inaccurate. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 1:56 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... How many dead fish do we have to have and dead birds falling from the sky to have before you sparkies understand your mistake? http://darkmattersalot.com/2014/01/12/florida-2/ On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:48 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: The radar RF signal is not being rectified by the water into a DC current like your chart is assuming. The signal is actually reflected from the surface layers with extremely small penetration. The pulse rate has nothing to do with the high frequency RF reflection behavior for a typical installation. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 9:50 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced electrical currents in seawater surface around just one ship's antennas. Now imagine 27 high power coastal based radars/antennas and 45 warship radars/antennas in one area. http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/14/how-cousteau-and-noaa-killed-the-reef/ Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3] http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2002-123/2002-123f.html#end3 *Current* *Reaction* 1 milliamp Just a faint tingle. 5 milliamps Slight shock felt. Disturbing, but not painful. Most people can “let go.” However, strong involuntary movements can cause injuries. 6-25 milliamps (women)† 9-30 milliamps (men) Painful shock. Muscular control is lost. This is the range where “freezing currents” start. It may not be possible to “let go.” 50-150 milliamps Extremely painful shock, respiratory arrest (breathing stops), severe muscle contractions. Flexor muscles may cause holding on; extensor muscles may cause intense pushing away. Death is possible. 1,000-4,300 milliamps (1-4.3 amps) Ventricular fibrillation (heart pumping action not rhythmic) occurs. Muscles contract; nerve damage occurs. Death is likely. 10,000 milliamps (10 amps) Cardiac arrest and severe burns occur. Death is probable. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:43 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Low pulsed frequency is a contradiction in terms. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Here are some dead zones and radiation power density http://darkmattersalot.com/2014/09/03/i-think-uncle-sam-definitely-did-it-in-the-lagoon-with-the-pulsed-microwave-radar/ enjoy! On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Of course if you limit your impact to those transmitters that communicate with submarines then these very low frequency signals do travel into the deeper water. But, so far it appears that you have placed all type of radars, etc. into the same category, which is not reasonable. From what I read in the news there are ocean dead zones in many locations that have little or nothing at all to do with RF transmissions. Many reefs are dying where no transmitters are located nearby to contribute to the problem. The concern about warming waters is a major one that is often used to explain the dying and that is more likely than high frequency RF transmissions. Dave -Original Message- From: James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 10:07 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Thanks for the numbers. This should be relatively straight forward to test: Set up two salt water aquariums supporting comparable coral populations. Run them for a year or so to see they are stable. Then subject one of them to low frequency EM radiation. PS: What I mean contraction in terms is that pulse implies high frequency components and, indeed, is usually illustrated by time differential on a square wave to filter out the low frequency components. However, your point is well taken -- a short duration transmission of a high power low frequency signal will penetrate salt water -- with a very drastic reduction in power with depth, as your numbers show. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:50 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced electrical currents in seawater surface around just one ship's antennas. Now imagine 27 high power coastal based radars/antennas and 45 warship radars/antennas in one area. http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/14/how-cousteau-and-noaa-killed-the-reef/ Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3] http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2002-123/2002-123f.html#end3 *Current* *Reaction* 1 milliamp Just a faint tingle. 5 milliamps Slight shock felt. Disturbing, but not painful. Most people can “let go.” However, strong involuntary movements can cause injuries. 6-25 milliamps (women)† 9-30 milliamps (men) Painful shock. Muscular control is lost. This is the range where “freezing currents” start. It may not be possible to “let go.” 50-150 milliamps Extremely painful shock, respiratory arrest (breathing stops), severe muscle contractions. Flexor muscles may cause holding on; extensor muscles may cause intense pushing away. Death is possible. 1,000-4,300 milliamps (1-4.3 amps) Ventricular fibrillation (heart pumping action not rhythmic) occurs. Muscles contract; nerve damage occurs. Death is likely. 10,000 milliamps (10 amps) Cardiac arrest and severe burns occur. Death is probable. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:43 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Low pulsed frequency is a contradiction in terms. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
David, Of course the low frequency square pulses show up on receivers, that is how pulsed doppler works! http://www.rfcafe.com/references/articles/images/Signal-Analysis-Modern-Radar-R-S-6.jpg When it is on (every pulse) a weather radar puts out ~1,000,000 WATTS, (32 billion watts EIRP) Stewart On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:10 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Come on now Stewart. If you take the time to analyze the spectrum of a pulsed radar signal, you will find that all of the energy is contained in a location surrounding the carrier frequency. Also, how well do you think a dish radar antenna being feed by a bandwidth limited waveguide is going to radiate those 200 to 1000 Hz signals? If you can show me where any significant amount of that low frequency is radiated I will assume that you are knowledgeable in RF design. It is easy to convince people that know nothing about radio and radar systems to be concerned about unimportant issues. And, as everyone knows, statistics can prove just about anything that you wish to prove based upon the restrictions that are placed upon the data that is analyzed. The same type of reasoning is used to keep kids from being vaccinated or cellular antenna locations from being located in the ideal places. We need real science instead of variable statistics to settle these issues properly. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Dave, the pulse train is a square wave, with the on amplitude approx 900' long or longer depending upon duty cycle, bouncing between clouds/planes and the suface of the ocean Just one weather radar has an EIRP of 32 billion watts of power, which gets ducted and scattered by planes and the atmosphere, more during storms. Mildly shocking biology with every pulse, depending upon impedence Electricity can kill you in a nanosecond, each radar pulse is 1000 times longer that that in duration. Admit it, you sparkies screwed up :) Stewart On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: The radar pulse rate does not effect the penetration into the water. In other words, the 200 to 1000 Hz rate is applied to the carrier and does not independently appear anywhere else. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 8:12 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... VLF https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_frequency radio waves (3–30 kHz https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertz) can penetrate seawater to a depth of approximately 20 meters. Hence a submarine at shallow depth can use these frequencies. Most of the radars pulse at 200-1000 Hz. Most of the coral disease is in shallow water 20 meters On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
You are kidding right? Any signal that shows up is merely being translated in frequency from its original location down to the baseband. The only signal received is very close in frequency to the carrier wave. The modulation signal at the low Hertz rate is visible at the receiver output, but it was not radiated by the transmitter. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 2:22 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... David, Of course the low frequency square pulses show up on receivers, that is how pulsed doppler works! http://www.rfcafe.com/references/articles/images/Signal-Analysis-Modern-Radar-R-S-6.jpg When it is on (every pulse) a weather radar puts out ~1,000,000 WATTS, (32 billion watts EIRP) Stewart On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:10 PM, David Robersondlrober...@aol.com wrote: Come on now Stewart. If you take the time to analyze the spectrum of a pulsed radar signal, you will find that all of the energy is contained in a location surrounding the carrier frequency. Also, how well do you think a dish radar antenna being feed by a bandwidth limited waveguide is going to radiate those 200 to 1000 Hz signals? If you can show me where any significant amount of that low frequency is radiated I will assume that you are knowledgeable in RF design. It is easy to convince people that know nothing about radio and radar systems to be concerned about unimportant issues. And, as everyone knows, statistics can prove just about anything that you wish to prove based upon the restrictions that are placed upon the data that is analyzed. The same type of reasoning is used to keep kids from being vaccinated or cellular antenna locations from being located in the ideal places. We need real science instead of variable statistics to settle these issues properly. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Dave, the pulse train is a square wave, with the on amplitude approx 900' long or longer depending upon duty cycle, bouncing between clouds/planes and the suface of the ocean Just one weather radar has an EIRP of 32 billion watts of power, which gets ducted and scattered by planes and the atmosphere, more during storms. Mildly shocking biology with every pulse, depending upon impedence Electricity can kill you in a nanosecond, each radar pulse is 1000 times longer that that in duration. Admit it, you sparkiesscrewed up :) Stewart On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: The radar pulse rate does not effect the penetration into the water. In other words, the 200 to 1000 Hz rate is applied to the carrier and does not independently appear anywhere else. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewartcheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-lvortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 8:12 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... VLF radio waves (3–30 kHz) can penetrate seawater to a depth of approximately 20 meters. Hence a submarine at shallow depth can use these frequencies. Most of the radars pulse at 200-1000 Hz. Most of the coral disease is in shallow water 20 meters On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote
RE: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Any non-linearity in a medium like salt water will cause baseband currents. From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2015 2:45 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... You are kidding right? Any signal that shows up is merely being translated in frequency from its original location down to the baseband. The only signal received is very close in frequency to the carrier wave. The modulation signal at the low Hertz rate is visible at the receiver output, but it was not radiated by the transmitter. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 2:22 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... David, Of course the low frequency square pulses show up on receivers, that is how pulsed doppler works! http://www.rfcafe.com/references/articles/images/Signal-Analysis-Modern-Radar-R-S-6.jpg When it is on (every pulse) a weather radar puts out ~1,000,000 WATTS, (32 billion watts EIRP) Stewart On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:10 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Come on now Stewart. If you take the time to analyze the spectrum of a pulsed radar signal, you will find that all of the energy is contained in a location surrounding the carrier frequency. Also, how well do you think a dish radar antenna being feed by a bandwidth limited waveguide is going to radiate those 200 to 1000 Hz signals? If you can show me where any significant amount of that low frequency is radiated I will assume that you are knowledgeable in RF design. It is easy to convince people that know nothing about radio and radar systems to be concerned about unimportant issues. And, as everyone knows, statistics can prove just about anything that you wish to prove based upon the restrictions that are placed upon the data that is analyzed. The same type of reasoning is used to keep kids from being vaccinated or cellular antenna locations from being located in the ideal places. We need real science instead of variable statistics to settle these issues properly. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Dave, the pulse train is a square wave, with the on amplitude approx 900' long or longer depending upon duty cycle, bouncing between clouds/planes and the suface of the ocean Just one weather radar has an EIRP of 32 billion watts of power, which gets ducted and scattered by planes and the atmosphere, more during storms. Mildly shocking biology with every pulse, depending upon impedence Electricity can kill you in a nanosecond, each radar pulse is 1000 times longer that that in duration. Admit it, you sparkies screwed up :) Stewart On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: The radar pulse rate does not effect the penetration into the water. In other words, the 200 to 1000 Hz rate is applied to the carrier and does not independently appear anywhere else. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 8:12 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_frequency VLF radio waves (3–30 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertz kHz) can penetrate seawater to a depth of approximately 20 meters. Hence a submarine at shallow depth can use these frequencies. Most of the radars pulse at 200-1000 Hz. Most of the coral disease is in shallow water 20 meters On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Yes indeed, they are modulated at that low rate. No one has ever stated otherwise Stewart. But, this is quite different than a signal at that low frequency being radiated into the environment. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 2:40 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... David, all doppler weather, FAA, military radars send pulse trains at 200-1000 Hz. Just google doppler radar, they are ALL pulsed signals. The carrier frequency (while they are on) determines how well the pulses are absorbed in things like water. 2.5 - 6 GHz (microwave oven, wifi, weather radars) are absorbed/attenuated well by water. I am not saying give up on all radars and electronic gadgets, just be smart. Let's make sure nature does not have a limit on how much EMF we can blast into the atmosphere 24/7 into a given area. That's all. No conspiracy theories, chemtrails, little green men. Stewart On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:29 PM, David Robersondlrober...@aol.com wrote: It is up to those that propose problems such as you are doing to prove that the transmitters are a big problem for society. Some people would also be concerned about the safety of air transportation without radar or radio guidance. Are you ready to give up on your cellular radios and other modern devices? You are going to have a difficult time attempting to eliminate radio and radar from the world! Please show me how the 200 to 1000 Hz signal is going to be radiated by a typical radar antenna system. I can tell you that you will not be able to show that and I am confident that you can not answer that question in an accepted engineering manner. Until you can do so, you should not keep repeating something that all of us radio engineers know is inaccurate. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 1:56 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... How many dead fish do we have to have and dead birds falling from the sky to have before you sparkies understand your mistake? http://darkmattersalot.com/2014/01/12/florida-2/ On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:48 PM, David Robersondlrober...@aol.com wrote: The radar RF signal is not being rectified by the water into a DC current like your chart is assuming. The signal is actually reflected from the surface layers with extremely small penetration. The pulse rate has nothing to do with the high frequency RF reflection behavior for a typical installation. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 9:50 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced electrical currents in seawater surface around just one ship's antennas. Now imagine 27 high power coastal based radars/antennas and 45 warship radars/antennas in one area. http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/14/how-cousteau-and-noaa-killed-the-reef/ Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3] Current Reaction
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
High frequency radio waves do not propagate under water. -Original Message- From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. hoyt-stea...@cox.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 5:50 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Any non-linearity in a medium like salt water will cause baseband currents. From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2015 2:45 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... You are kidding right? Any signal that shows up is merely being translated in frequency from its original location down to the baseband. The only signal received is very close in frequency to the carrier wave. The modulation signal at the low Hertz rate is visible at the receiver output, but it was not radiated by the transmitter. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 2:22 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... David, Of course the low frequency square pulses show up on receivers, that is how pulsed doppler works! http://www.rfcafe.com/references/articles/images/Signal-Analysis-Modern-Radar-R-S-6.jpg When it is on (every pulse) a weather radar puts out ~1,000,000 WATTS, (32 billion watts EIRP) Stewart On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:10 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Come on now Stewart. If you take the time to analyze the spectrum of a pulsed radar signal, you will find that all of the energy is contained in a location surrounding the carrier frequency. Also, how well do you think a dish radar antenna being feed by a bandwidth limited waveguide is going to radiate those 200 to 1000 Hz signals? If you can show me where any significant amount of that low frequency is radiated I will assume that you are knowledgeable in RF design. It is easy to convince people that know nothing about radio and radar systems to be concerned about unimportant issues. And, as everyone knows, statistics can prove just about anything that you wish to prove based upon the restrictions that are placed upon the data that is analyzed. The same type of reasoning is used to keep kids from being vaccinated or cellular antenna locations from being located in the ideal places. We need real science instead of variable statistics to settle these issues properly. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Dave, the pulse train is a square wave, with the on amplitude approx 900' long or longer depending upon duty cycle, bouncing between clouds/planes and the suface of the ocean Just one weather radar has an EIRP of 32 billion watts of power, which gets ducted and scattered by planes and the atmosphere, more during storms. Mildly shocking biology with every pulse, depending upon impedence Electricity can kill you in a nanosecond, each radar pulse is 1000 times longer that that in duration. Admit it, you sparkies screwed up :) Stewart On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: The radar pulse rate does not effect the penetration into the water. In other words, the 200 to 1000 Hz rate is applied to the carrier and does not independently appear anywhere else. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 8:12 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... VLF radio waves (3–30 kHz) can penetrate seawater to a depth of approximately 20 meters. Hence a submarine at shallow depth can use these frequencies
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Stray electrical currents from electromagnetic induction are an ongoing problem in saltwater aquariums - diseased fish and marine life. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1982006 In Kauai, the North shore reef fish are turning black and some of the sharks are going belly up near the radar stations. The fins of the green sea turtles and sharks in the area are getting eaten away. It is not the voltage potential that gets you, but the induced electrical currents as the potential seeks ground, if there is one. The ocean/seawater makes a very good ground. Many receiving antennas near the coast run their ground into the ocean. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_plane To function as a ground plane, the conducting surface must be at least a quarter of the wavelength https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavelength (*λ*/4) of the radio waves in size. In lower frequency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency antennas, such as the mast radiators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mast_radiator used for broadcast antennas, the Earth itself (or a body of water such as a salt marsh or ocean) is used as a ground plane. Small waves at surface of ocean breaking over shallow reef also act as antennas to capture higher frequency EMF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tIZUhu21sQ Stewart On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. hoyt-stea...@cox.net wrote: This must be done blind but even then, the experimenter effect ( Marylyn Schlitz) would override the results ( Experimenter effect ). *From:* James Bowery [mailto:jabow...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, July 7, 2015 7:07 AM *To:* vortex-l *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Thanks for the numbers. This should be relatively straight forward to test: Set up two salt water aquariums supporting comparable coral populations. Run them for a year or so to see they are stable. Then subject one of them to low frequency EM radiation. PS: What I mean contraction in terms is that pulse implies high frequency components and, indeed, is usually illustrated by time differential on a square wave to filter out the low frequency components. However, your point is well taken -- a short duration transmission of a high power low frequency signal will penetrate salt water -- with a very drastic reduction in power with depth, as your numbers show. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:50 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced electrical currents in seawater surface around just one ship's antennas. Now imagine 27 high power coastal based radars/antennas and 45 warship radars/antennas in one area. http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/14/how-cousteau-and-noaa-killed-the-reef/ Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3] http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2002-123/2002-123f.html#end3 *Current* *Reaction* 1 milliamp Just a faint tingle. 5 milliamps Slight shock felt. Disturbing, but not painful. Most people can “let go.” However, strong involuntary movements can cause injuries. 6-25 milliamps (women)† 9-30 milliamps (men) Painful shock. Muscular control is lost. This is the range where “freezing currents” start. It may not be possible to “let go.” 50-150 milliamps Extremely painful shock, respiratory arrest (breathing stops), severe muscle contractions. Flexor muscles may cause holding on; extensor muscles may cause intense pushing away. Death is possible. 1,000-4,300 milliamps (1-4.3 amps) Ventricular fibrillation (heart pumping action not rhythmic) occurs. Muscles contract; nerve damage occurs. Death is likely. 10,000 milliamps (10 amps) Cardiac arrest and severe burns occur. Death is probable. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:43 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Low pulsed frequency is a contradiction in terms. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration. -- https://www.avast.com/antivirus This email
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
JoJo sent me a message to post, so I will post. We will agree to disagree about the radars/antennas near seawater. I don't disagree electrodes can stimulate growth, they can also kill it. http://fishshocker.net/ Stewart -- Forwarded message -- From: jojoiznar...@gmail.com Date: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 10:26 AM Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... To: cheme...@gmail.com Stewart, this is Jojo Jaro. I have been following your posting on vortex regarding your hypothesis that electricity is killing the corals. I believe you are wrong on that and you are barking up the wrong tree. If anything, mild electricity you documented from radars etc., would help corals grow faster rather than kill them. Google “Biorock” and “mineral accretion” were they zap 2 electrodes under seawater with 2V up to 12 V of electricity to stimulate coral growth. The corals, oysters, fish and other marine creatures get attracted to the cathode and grow profusely up to 10 time faster. Electricity at the levels you documented will increase coral growth, not kill them. My own computations for my onshore Pearl oyster farm indicates that zapping with 1.3 v would create a current of about .001 A which would not only be harmless to pearl oysters (Pinctada Maxima sp), but also stimulate faster growth. Multiple studies have documented this. Just google. Please copy and paste this email on Vortex so that people don’t waste time barking up the wrong tree. The simpler reason for coral death is plain old pollution and eutrophication of coastal waters. Have you done a correlation study of coral deaths versus pollution levels in said waters. I believe that if you do, you will find that there would be a strong correlation, much stronger than your radar correlation. Could it simply be that radar station locations you documented tend to be located in coastal populated areas which would tend to pollute the coastal seawater? Jojo On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 11:29 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Stray electrical currents from electromagnetic induction are an ongoing problem in saltwater aquariums - diseased fish and marine life. http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1982006 In Kauai, the North shore reef fish are turning black and some of the sharks are going belly up near the radar stations. The fins of the green sea turtles and sharks in the area are getting eaten away. It is not the voltage potential that gets you, but the induced electrical currents as the potential seeks ground, if there is one. The ocean/seawater makes a very good ground. Many receiving antennas near the coast run their ground into the ocean. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ground_plane To function as a ground plane, the conducting surface must be at least a quarter of the wavelength https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wavelength (*λ*/4) of the radio waves in size. In lower frequency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frequency antennas, such as the mast radiators https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mast_radiator used for broadcast antennas, the Earth itself (or a body of water such as a salt marsh or ocean) is used as a ground plane. Small waves at surface of ocean breaking over shallow reef also act as antennas to capture higher frequency EMF https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tIZUhu21sQ Stewart On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. hoyt-stea...@cox.net wrote: This must be done blind but even then, the experimenter effect ( Marylyn Schlitz) would override the results ( Experimenter effect ). *From:* James Bowery [mailto:jabow...@gmail.com] *Sent:* Tuesday, July 7, 2015 7:07 AM *To:* vortex-l *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Thanks for the numbers. This should be relatively straight forward to test: Set up two salt water aquariums supporting comparable coral populations. Run them for a year or so to see they are stable. Then subject one of them to low frequency EM radiation. PS: What I mean contraction in terms is that pulse implies high frequency components and, indeed, is usually illustrated by time differential on a square wave to filter out the low frequency components. However, your point is well taken -- a short duration transmission of a high power low frequency signal will penetrate salt water -- with a very drastic reduction in power with depth, as your numbers show. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:50 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
You recall me being shocked by that darned vhf transmitter? Actually it was a burn, but it proved that I have earned my metal as an experienced RF power engineer. Most of the guys that I know who have actual experience have been burned on at least one occasion. Have you ever been RF burned? Have you ever designed a transmitter? Have you ever put a system into operation? What are your expert qualifications? If you can not answer most of these in a positive manner then you should be trying to learn from those that have.There is no crime in playing with statistics as long as no damage is done to an important industry by someone who has limited knowledge. We are here to help you keep grounded in true theory as long as you are willing to listen my friend. You really should start by understanding how pulse modulation of an RF carrier functions. There is no radiation of the pulse repetition frequency of any measurable magnitude. The fact that the radar antenna system can not radiate efficiently at that frequency should be sufficient to settle that question. Is that not obvious? Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 2:43 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Last time I argued with you about this you told me you got shocked by an RF antenna You proved my point. I loved radio, but I like Pandora better and that comes through a cable (at least to my house :)) Stewart On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:41 PM, David Robersondlrober...@aol.com wrote: Not really Stewart. I have worked on radios and theory for many years and I understand it quite well. You are missing the point about the pulse repetition rate and its relationship to the radiated signal. The low frequencies are not radiated by a very band limited high frequency RF transmission system. That is trivial and anyone with RF experience understands it. You are not well informed about how these systems operate and are making assumptions that do not exist. Have you spent many years designing radios or putting systems into operation? You should let all the vortex readers know about your background in RF transmitters so that they can judge the accuracy of your predictions. I am happy to discuss my career in that field. Much of the modern world depends upon RF communications and I am quite proud of the work I have done in that area. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 2:00 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... No, I have concentrated on pulsed radars, which pulse at 0-1000 Hz, considered very low frequencies. Dave you are generalizing and have done no research yourself. Here is some: http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/19/and-you-thought-the-bp-oil-spill-was-bad/ On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, David Robersondlrober...@aol.com wrote: Of course if you limit your impact to those transmitters that communicate with submarines then these very low frequency signals do travel into the deeper water. But, so far it appears that you have placed all type of radars, etc. into the same category, which is not reasonable. From what I read in the news there are ocean dead zones in many locations that have little or nothing at all to do with RF transmissions. Many reefs are dying where no transmitters are located nearby to contribute to the problem. The concern about warming waters is a major one that is often used to explain the dying and that is more likely than high frequency RF transmissions. Dave -Original Message- From: James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 10:07 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Thanks for the numbers. This should be relatively straight forward to test: Set up two salt water aquariums supporting comparable
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
What about low flying aircraft overhead reflecting a strong signal back to ground? What about ducting events and high refraction off the atmosphere during storms? Salt water is 1000 times better conductor than soil and well grounded. The radars are pulsing at very LOW frequencies and yes, the saltwater is seeing the swing in EM fields. Overlapping beam widths are covering thousands of sq ft at 1/2 mile away. Just like your Doppler weather radar I already showed you a model of electrical currents on ocean surface around ships antennas. You probably never looked The evidence is strongly on my side. You can even stir saltwater using Lorentz forces in a strong pulsing EM field Stewart On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Rectification of the signal can cause small DC currents as you suggest. Any non linear behavior that treats both the positive and negative RF swings equally can not result in DC generation but instead causes harmonic generation of the RF carrier. Do you consider salt water as capable of behaving differently to the positive versus negative instantaneous RF voltage and current waveforms? Where is a reference to this behavior? The high frequency RF signal itself can not penetrate the water to any significant degree due to reflections from the surface. Also, keep in mind that radar signals are aimed to keep their energy toward targets that are above the water surface in general, especially close by. And the beam widths are so narrow that only a small portion of the radiated RF impacts the water near the antenna. Dave -Original Message- From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. hoyt-stea...@cox.net javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','hoyt-stea...@cox.net'); To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vortex-l@eskimo.com'); Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 5:50 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Any non-linearity in a medium like salt water will cause baseband currents. *From:* David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','dlrober...@aol.com?');] *Sent:* Tuesday, July 7, 2015 2:45 PM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vortex-l@eskimo.com'); *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... You are kidding right? Any signal that shows up is merely being translated in frequency from its original location down to the baseband. The only signal received is very close in frequency to the carrier wave. The modulation signal at the low Hertz rate is visible at the receiver output, but it was not radiated by the transmitter. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','cheme...@gmail.com'); To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vortex-l@eskimo.com'); Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 2:22 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... David, Of course the low frequency square pulses show up on receivers, that is how pulsed doppler works! http://www.rfcafe.com/references/articles/images/Signal-Analysis-Modern-Radar-R-S-6.jpg When it is on (every pulse) a weather radar puts out ~1,000,000 WATTS, (32 billion watts EIRP) Stewart On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:10 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','dlrober...@aol.com'); wrote: Come on now Stewart. If you take the time to analyze the spectrum of a pulsed radar signal, you will find that all of the energy is contained in a location surrounding the carrier frequency. Also, how well do you think a dish radar antenna being feed by a bandwidth limited waveguide is going to radiate those 200 to 1000 Hz signals? If you can show me where any significant amount of that low frequency is radiated I will assume that you are knowledgeable in RF design. It is easy to convince people that know nothing about radio and radar systems to be concerned about unimportant issues. And, as everyone knows, statistics can prove just about anything that you wish to prove based upon the restrictions that are placed upon the data that is analyzed. The same type of reasoning is used to keep kids from being vaccinated or cellular antenna locations from being located in the ideal places. We need real science instead of variable statistics to settle these issues properly. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','cheme...@gmail.com'); To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vortex-l@eskimo.com'); Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Dave, the pulse train is a square wave, with the on amplitude approx 900' long or longer depending upon duty cycle, bouncing between clouds/planes and the suface of the ocean Just one weather radar has an EIRP of 32 billion watts of power, which gets ducted and scattered by planes
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Something more interesting wit rf http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:John_Kanzius_Produces_Hydrogen_from_Salt_Water_Using_Radio_Waves -Original Message- From: David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 6:13 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... You recall me being shocked by that darned vhf transmitter? Actually it was a burn, but it proved that I have earned my metal as an experienced RF power engineer. Most of the guys that I know who have actual experience have been burned on at least one occasion. Have you ever been RF burned? Have you ever designed a transmitter? Have you ever put a system into operation? What are your expert qualifications? If you can not answer most of these in a positive manner then you should be trying to learn from those that have.There is no crime in playing with statistics as long as no damage is done to an important industry by someone who has limited knowledge. We are here to help you keep grounded in true theory as long as you are willing to listen my friend. You really should start by understanding how pulse modulation of an RF carrier functions. There is no radiation of the pulse repetition frequency of any measurable magnitude. The fact that the radar antenna system can not radiate efficiently at that frequency should be sufficient to settle that question. Is that not obvious? Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 2:43 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Last time I argued with you about this you told me you got shocked by an RF antenna You proved my point. I loved radio, but I like Pandora better and that comes through a cable (at least to my house :)) Stewart On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:41 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Not really Stewart. I have worked on radios and theory for many years and I understand it quite well. You are missing the point about the pulse repetition rate and its relationship to the radiated signal. The low frequencies are not radiated by a very band limited high frequency RF transmission system. That is trivial and anyone with RF experience understands it. You are not well informed about how these systems operate and are making assumptions that do not exist. Have you spent many years designing radios or putting systems into operation? You should let all the vortex readers know about your background in RF transmitters so that they can judge the accuracy of your predictions. I am happy to discuss my career in that field. Much of the modern world depends upon RF communications and I am quite proud of the work I have done in that area. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 2:00 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... No, I have concentrated on pulsed radars, which pulse at 0-1000 Hz, considered very low frequencies. Dave you are generalizing and have done no research yourself. Here is some: http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/19/and-you-thought-the-bp-oil-spill-was-bad/ On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:55 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Of course if you limit your impact to those transmitters that communicate with submarines then these very low frequency signals do travel into the deeper water. But, so far it appears that you have placed all type of radars, etc. into the same category, which is not reasonable. From what I read in the news there are ocean dead zones in many locations that have little or nothing at all to do with RF transmissions. Many reefs are dying where no transmitters are located nearby to contribute to the problem. The concern about warming waters is a major one that is often used to explain the dying and that is more likely than high frequency RF transmissions. Dave
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Dave, Then stop talking since you have done no research on correlations of marine life disease and human disease linked to EM radiation, which is understandable since you have spent your career generating EM radiation and you feel compelled to justify http://www.ibtimes.com/international-scientists-warn-against-em-radiation-emitted-electronic-gadgets-1920862 Peak Pulsed power hitting surface of ocean reflecting off an aircraft 2000 ft overhead from a high gain radar is much higher than a low gain cell signal. Of course you RF guys average in the time the radar is off between pulses to make it sound low average power Ducting events are just as high power as reflecting events as the beam is bent into the ground I showed you a simulation calculating actual electrical current density in the saltwater. Conductivity of saltwater is relativity constant at given salinity and temp. and is ~ 1000 times better than soil. http://www.fondriest.com/environmental-measurements/parameters/water-quality/conductivity-salinity-tds/ Where do you think that induced electrical current goes Dave?? Back into thin air? Complete the energy balance. Electrical currents seek ground via the path of least resistance. A shallow reef is a good spot to go to ground with lots of dissolved ions in the seawater I showed you a few hundred thousand dead fish over 3 years and shocked manatee clustered around microwave radars with a P-value 0.01 as well diseased marine life with fins decayed off and fish turning black. I realize there is nothing that will convince you RF guys which is why we have the problem in the first place. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21716201 http://darkmattersalot.com/2014/11/01/wow/ http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/21/just-for-the-hell-of-it-i-threw-in-the-microwave-relay-stations/ Talk with you later. Stewart On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 7:45 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Stewart, I have already suggested that this discussion be terminated due to its interference with the main issues. But, you clearly need good theoretical backing for your concepts. The reflections from a low flying aircraft that you think as large are not significant at all when you consider the actual number of watts being directed to the water below.Far more power density would enter the water from a person walking along the beach with a cellular phone in their hand. And, keep in mind that the extremely close plane fly by would be rare when compared to the normal RF sweep where none are typically close by. This is a non issue. Again, the ducting events represent a trivial amount of power density impacting the water. Do the calculations and you will realize. And, the reason that the RF does not penetrate deeply into the salt water is for exactly the reason you mention(high conductivity). That protects the reefs below form any serious RF levels. What is the conductivity of the salt water for the positive portion of the waveform? And then you should answer the same question for the negative portion. Saying so does not make it true. Why do you think I question that electrical currents appear on the ocean surface due to ship antennas? This is exactly what is expected. The vast majority of those currents are within the RF frequency region. They are the physical phenomena that result in reflections from the ocean and it would be strange indeed if they were not present. Did I need to read about that theory again? I have not seen anything new or revolutionary about your posts except for the assumptions that are not valid. Is it really unusual to you that conductive salt water can be influenced by changing magnetic fields? Perhaps you should study Eddie current braking if that seems strange. Any time a current is inducted within a material by a changing magnetic field a force is generated that can cause the material to react. I admit that I have never looked into driving salt water in this manner, but it should be possible. So far I have seen no strong evidence for your assumptions. I realize that you are convinced about what you are stating, but you would be wise to consider what some of us are saying. And, using flawed statistics to prove a point can get you into a lot of trouble. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 7:08 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... What about low flying aircraft overhead reflecting a strong signal back to ground? What about ducting events and high refraction off the atmosphere during storms? Salt water is 1000 times better conductor than soil and well grounded. The radars are pulsing at very LOW frequencies and yes, the saltwater is seeing the swing in EM fields. Overlapping beam widths are covering thousands of sq ft at 1/2 mile away. Just like your Doppler weather radar
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Yep. Those induced currents are at the RF microwave frequency that you are speaking of Stewart. That is how reflections take place. It also can be used to explain the attenuation of the main signal as it gets dissipated within the conductive medium. This subject has been covered sufficiently for the time being.We have LENR issues to discuss and I suspect that very few vortex members have significant interest in the coral reef discussion. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 6:42 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Right, and salt water flowing through a strong pulsing EM field can induce electrical currents. On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. hoyt-stea...@cox.net wrote: Any non-linearity in a medium like salt water will cause baseband currents. From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2015 2:45 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... You are kidding right? Any signal that shows up is merely being translated in frequency from its original location down to the baseband. The only signal received is very close in frequency to the carrier wave. The modulation signal at the low Hertz rate is visible at the receiver output, but it was not radiated by the transmitter. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 2:22 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... David, Of course the low frequency square pulses show up on receivers, that is how pulsed doppler works! http://www.rfcafe.com/references/articles/images/Signal-Analysis-Modern-Radar-R-S-6.jpg When it is on (every pulse) a weather radar puts out ~1,000,000 WATTS, (32 billion watts EIRP) Stewart On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:10 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Come on now Stewart. If you take the time to analyze the spectrum of a pulsed radar signal, you will find that all of the energy is contained in a location surrounding the carrier frequency. Also, how well do you think a dish radar antenna being feed by a bandwidth limited waveguide is going to radiate those 200 to 1000 Hz signals? If you can show me where any significant amount of that low frequency is radiated I will assume that you are knowledgeable in RF design. It is easy to convince people that know nothing about radio and radar systems to be concerned about unimportant issues. And, as everyone knows, statistics can prove just about anything that you wish to prove based upon the restrictions that are placed upon the data that is analyzed. The same type of reasoning is used to keep kids from being vaccinated or cellular antenna locations from being located in the ideal places. We need real science instead of variable statistics to settle these issues properly. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Dave, the pulse train is a square wave, with the on amplitude approx 900' long or longer depending upon duty cycle, bouncing between clouds/planes and the suface of the ocean Just one weather radar has an EIRP of 32 billion watts of power, which gets ducted and scattered by planes and the atmosphere, more during storms. Mildly shocking biology with every pulse, depending upon impedence Electricity can kill you in a nanosecond, each radar pulse is 1000 times longer that that in duration. Admit it, you sparkies screwed up :) Stewart
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Right, and salt water flowing through a strong pulsing EM field can induce electrical currents. On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. hoyt-stea...@cox.net wrote: Any non-linearity in a medium like salt water will cause baseband currents. *From:* David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','dlrober...@aol.com');] *Sent:* Tuesday, July 7, 2015 2:45 PM *To:* vortex-l@eskimo.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vortex-l@eskimo.com'); *Subject:* Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... You are kidding right? Any signal that shows up is merely being translated in frequency from its original location down to the baseband. The only signal received is very close in frequency to the carrier wave. The modulation signal at the low Hertz rate is visible at the receiver output, but it was not radiated by the transmitter. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','cheme...@gmail.com'); To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vortex-l@eskimo.com'); Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 2:22 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... David, Of course the low frequency square pulses show up on receivers, that is how pulsed doppler works! http://www.rfcafe.com/references/articles/images/Signal-Analysis-Modern-Radar-R-S-6.jpg When it is on (every pulse) a weather radar puts out ~1,000,000 WATTS, (32 billion watts EIRP) Stewart On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:10 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','dlrober...@aol.com'); wrote: Come on now Stewart. If you take the time to analyze the spectrum of a pulsed radar signal, you will find that all of the energy is contained in a location surrounding the carrier frequency. Also, how well do you think a dish radar antenna being feed by a bandwidth limited waveguide is going to radiate those 200 to 1000 Hz signals? If you can show me where any significant amount of that low frequency is radiated I will assume that you are knowledgeable in RF design. It is easy to convince people that know nothing about radio and radar systems to be concerned about unimportant issues. And, as everyone knows, statistics can prove just about anything that you wish to prove based upon the restrictions that are placed upon the data that is analyzed. The same type of reasoning is used to keep kids from being vaccinated or cellular antenna locations from being located in the ideal places. We need real science instead of variable statistics to settle these issues properly. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','cheme...@gmail.com'); To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vortex-l@eskimo.com'); Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Dave, the pulse train is a square wave, with the on amplitude approx 900' long or longer depending upon duty cycle, bouncing between clouds/planes and the suface of the ocean Just one weather radar has an EIRP of 32 billion watts of power, which gets ducted and scattered by planes and the atmosphere, more during storms. Mildly shocking biology with every pulse, depending upon impedence Electricity can kill you in a nanosecond, each radar pulse is 1000 times longer that that in duration. Admit it, you sparkies screwed up :) Stewart On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','dlrober...@aol.com'); wrote: The radar pulse rate does not effect the penetration into the water. In other words, the 200 to 1000 Hz rate is applied to the carrier and does not independently appear anywhere else. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','cheme...@gmail.com'); To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','vortex-l@eskimo.com'); Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 8:12 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... VLF https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_frequency radio waves (3–30 kHz https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertz) can penetrate seawater to a depth of approximately 20 meters. Hence a submarine at shallow depth can use these frequencies. Most of the radars pulse at 200-1000 Hz. Most of the coral disease is in shallow water 20 meters On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','cheme...@gmail.com'); wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jabow...@gmail.com'); wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','zeropo...@charter.net'); wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Of course, this is nothing new. Now show me how the actual pulse repetition rate is transmitted other than by existing as modulation of the carrier? Can you integrate this waveform to show that energy is being transmitted at that 200 to 1000 Hz frequency? You can not because none is being transmitted at that frequency. You are confusing the modulation with the modulated carrier itself. Most of the modulated carrier and sidebands are located within a moderately narrow band of frequencies that surround the RF carrier center frequency. The shape of the pulses as well as their repetition rate determines the levels of those important sidebands. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 3:07 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... OK, this is how the 200-1000 Hz signal is propogated http://www.nwas.org/committees/avnwinterwx/doppler_weather_radar_overview.htm A large parabolic dish antenna works well. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:29 PM, David Robersondlrober...@aol.com wrote: It is up to those that propose problems such as you are doing to prove that the transmitters are a big problem for society. Some people would also be concerned about the safety of air transportation without radar or radio guidance. Are you ready to give up on your cellular radios and other modern devices? You are going to have a difficult time attempting to eliminate radio and radar from the world! Please show me how the 200 to 1000 Hz signal is going to be radiated by a typical radar antenna system. I can tell you that you will not be able to show that and I am confident that you can not answer that question in an accepted engineering manner. Until you can do so, you should not keep repeating something that all of us radio engineers know is inaccurate. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 1:56 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... How many dead fish do we have to have and dead birds falling from the sky to have before you sparkies understand your mistake? http://darkmattersalot.com/2014/01/12/florida-2/ On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:48 PM, David Robersondlrober...@aol.com wrote: The radar RF signal is not being rectified by the water into a DC current like your chart is assuming. The signal is actually reflected from the surface layers with extremely small penetration. The pulse rate has nothing to do with the high frequency RF reflection behavior for a typical installation. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 9:50 am Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced electrical currents in seawater surface around just one ship's antennas. Now imagine 27 high power coastal based radars/antennas and 45 warship radars/antennas in one area. http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/14/how-cousteau-and-noaa-killed-the-reef/ Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3] Current Reaction
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Rectification of the signal can cause small DC currents as you suggest. Any non linear behavior that treats both the positive and negative RF swings equally can not result in DC generation but instead causes harmonic generation of the RF carrier. Do you consider salt water as capable of behaving differently to the positive versus negative instantaneous RF voltage and current waveforms? Where is a reference to this behavior? The high frequency RF signal itself can not penetrate the water to any significant degree due to reflections from the surface. Also, keep in mind that radar signals are aimed to keep their energy toward targets that are above the water surface in general, especially close by. And the beam widths are so narrow that only a small portion of the radiated RF impacts the water near the antenna. Dave -Original Message- From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. hoyt-stea...@cox.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 5:50 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Any non-linearity in a medium like salt water will cause baseband currents. From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2015 2:45 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... You are kidding right? Any signal that shows up is merely being translated in frequency from its original location down to the baseband. The only signal received is very close in frequency to the carrier wave. The modulation signal at the low Hertz rate is visible at the receiver output, but it was not radiated by the transmitter. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 2:22 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... David, Of course the low frequency square pulses show up on receivers, that is how pulsed doppler works! http://www.rfcafe.com/references/articles/images/Signal-Analysis-Modern-Radar-R-S-6.jpg When it is on (every pulse) a weather radar puts out ~1,000,000 WATTS, (32 billion watts EIRP) Stewart On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 2:10 PM, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Come on now Stewart. If you take the time to analyze the spectrum of a pulsed radar signal, you will find that all of the energy is contained in a location surrounding the carrier frequency. Also, how well do you think a dish radar antenna being feed by a bandwidth limited waveguide is going to radiate those 200 to 1000 Hz signals? If you can show me where any significant amount of that low frequency is radiated I will assume that you are knowledgeable in RF design. It is easy to convince people that know nothing about radio and radar systems to be concerned about unimportant issues. And, as everyone knows, statistics can prove just about anything that you wish to prove based upon the restrictions that are placed upon the data that is analyzed. The same type of reasoning is used to keep kids from being vaccinated or cellular antenna locations from being located in the ideal places. We need real science instead of variable statistics to settle these issues properly. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 1:53 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Dave, the pulse train is a square wave, with the on amplitude approx 900' long or longer depending upon duty cycle, bouncing between clouds/planes and the suface of the ocean Just one weather radar has an EIRP of 32 billion watts of power, which gets ducted and scattered by planes and the atmosphere, more during storms. Mildly shocking biology with every pulse, depending upon impedence Electricity can kill you in a nanosecond, each radar pulse is 1000 times longer that that in duration. Admit it, you sparkies screwed up :) Stewart
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Stewart, I have already suggested that this discussion be terminated due to its interference with the main issues. But, you clearly need good theoretical backing for your concepts. The reflections from a low flying aircraft that you think as large are not significant at all when you consider the actual number of watts being directed to the water below.Far more power density would enter the water from a person walking along the beach with a cellular phone in their hand. And, keep in mind that the extremely close plane fly by would be rare when compared to the normal RF sweep where none are typically close by. This is a non issue. Again, the ducting events represent a trivial amount of power density impacting the water. Do the calculations and you will realize. And, the reason that the RF does not penetrate deeply into the salt water is for exactly the reason you mention(high conductivity). That protects the reefs below form any serious RF levels. What is the conductivity of the salt water for the positive portion of the waveform? And then you should answer the same question for the negative portion. Saying so does not make it true. Why do you think I question that electrical currents appear on the ocean surface due to ship antennas? This is exactly what is expected. The vast majority of those currents are within the RF frequency region. They are the physical phenomena that result in reflections from the ocean and it would be strange indeed if they were not present. Did I need to read about that theory again? I have not seen anything new or revolutionary about your posts except for the assumptions that are not valid. Is it really unusual to you that conductive salt water can be influenced by changing magnetic fields? Perhaps you should study Eddie current braking if that seems strange. Any time a current is inducted within a material by a changing magnetic field a force is generated that can cause the material to react. I admit that I have never looked into driving salt water in this manner, but it should be possible. So far I have seen no strong evidence for your assumptions. I realize that you are convinced about what you are stating, but you would be wise to consider what some of us are saying. And, using flawed statistics to prove a point can get you into a lot of trouble. Dave -Original Message- From: ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 7:08 pm Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... What about low flying aircraft overhead reflecting a strong signal back to ground? What about ducting events and high refraction off the atmosphere during storms? Salt water is 1000 times better conductor than soil and well grounded. The radars are pulsing at very LOW frequencies and yes, the saltwater is seeing the swing in EM fields. Overlapping beam widths are covering thousands of sq ft at 1/2 mile away. Just like your Doppler weather radar I already showed you a model of electrical currents on ocean surface around ships antennas. You probably never looked The evidence is strongly on my side. You can even stir saltwater using Lorentz forces in a strong pulsing EM field Stewart On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, David Roberson dlrober...@aol.com wrote: Rectification of the signal can cause small DC currents as you suggest. Any non linear behavior that treats both the positive and negative RF swings equally can not result in DC generation but instead causes harmonic generation of the RF carrier. Do you consider salt water as capable of behaving differently to the positive versus negative instantaneous RF voltage and current waveforms? Where is a reference to this behavior? The high frequency RF signal itself can not penetrate the water to any significant degree due to reflections from the surface. Also, keep in mind that radar signals are aimed to keep their energy toward targets that are above the water surface in general, especially close by. And the beam widths are so narrow that only a small portion of the radiated RF impacts the water near the antenna. Dave -Original Message- From: Hoyt A. Stearns Jr. hoyt-stea...@cox.net To: vortex-l vortex-l@eskimo.com Sent: Tue, Jul 7, 2015 5:50 pm Subject: RE: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Any non-linearity in a medium like salt water will cause baseband currents. From: David Roberson [mailto:dlrober...@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2015 2:45 PM To: vortex-l@eskimo.com Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','zeropo...@charter.net'); wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
VLF https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_low_frequency radio waves (3–30 kHz https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertz) can penetrate seawater to a depth of approximately 20 meters. Hence a submarine at shallow depth can use these frequencies. Most of the radars pulse at 200-1000 Hz. Most of the coral disease is in shallow water 20 meters On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','jabow...@gmail.com'); wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Mark, Thanks for the info, I will pass it on. I read the posts on Vortex everyday and appreciate the uninhibited creative technical expulsion that occurs. I am involved in a couple of research efforts now in addition to my day job as a chemical/environmental engineer consultant. One study involves looking at correlations with high power, high gain microwave radar and broadcast earth station locations and human diseases. The results of that effort, which have been ongoing for a year and a half, will be published in a peer reviewed journal soon. The other study, just getting underway, is looking at increased marine life diseases, including coral reef diseases around locations of high power radars and earth stations. We are doing surveys and lab testing in Kauai, Hi and are filming a TV show to raise funds and awareness. I have developed a public US database of microwave radars and earth stations to support the research if anyone is interested to download in Google Earth. http://googleearthcommunity.proboards.com/thread/750/microwave-radar-earthstation-locations If there is a problem, and I believe strongly there is, the causation would include: Reflection, refraction, induction, conduction and absorption of the low frequency 0-1000 Hz pulses and high frequency GHz carrier waves in all biology, including the ocean, which is a relatively good conductor. The EMF appears to be breaking down calcium compounds and possibly triggering protein folding and a whole host of maladies. Stay tuned. Stewart Darkmattersalot.com On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… Seems that proteins in living systems have evolved such that they are at a ‘critical state’, and it doesn’t take much energy at the right frequency to cause conformational changes; i.e., disruption in their tertiary structure (physical folding of the amino acid chain)… the conformational change causes the protein to no longer function properly… this would likely have profound, and deleterious, effects on the living organism. Hundreds or thousands of proteins are involved in the normal biochemical reactions taking place all the time in any living organism… Up until recently, molecular vibrations in solution were thought to be highly damped, but that view may not always be the case, as explained in this layman’s article: “Proteins 'ring like bells': Quantum mechanics and biochemical reactions” http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/06/140603092424.htm And this is the scientific reference: “Terahertz underdamped vibrational motion governs protein-ligand binding in solution” Nature Communications 5, Article number: 3999 doi:10.1038/ncomms4999 http://www.nature.com/ncomms/2014/140603/ncomms4999/full/ncomms4999.html Stewart, I wonder if your scientific contacts studying the coral reefs dying off are aware of this research??? Although radar is not in the THz range, could be it contains some energy at subharmonic frequencies which do affect proteins in the organisms which build the coral structures… radar may not have been a problem if it wasn’t operating 24/7/365. And finally, another researcher I follow has been looking into the possibility that our man-made EM radiation, which is quite extensive these days, could also be responsible for some of the health-related issues seen in modern society: “How Radio Waves Make You Sicker” How Radio Waves Make You Sicker http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37j2jDN8IVo Prof. Trevor Marshall, Autoimmunity Research Foundation Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? ;-) -mark iverson
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Low pulsed frequency is a contradiction in terms. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Thanks for the numbers. This should be relatively straight forward to test: Set up two salt water aquariums supporting comparable coral populations. Run them for a year or so to see they are stable. Then subject one of them to low frequency EM radiation. PS: What I mean contraction in terms is that pulse implies high frequency components and, indeed, is usually illustrated by time differential on a square wave to filter out the low frequency components. However, your point is well taken -- a short duration transmission of a high power low frequency signal will penetrate salt water -- with a very drastic reduction in power with depth, as your numbers show. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:50 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced electrical currents in seawater surface around just one ship's antennas. Now imagine 27 high power coastal based radars/antennas and 45 warship radars/antennas in one area. http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/14/how-cousteau-and-noaa-killed-the-reef/ Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3] http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2002-123/2002-123f.html#end3*Current* *Reaction*1 milliampJust a faint tingle.5 milliampsSlight shock felt. Disturbing, but not painful. Most people can “let go.” However, strong involuntary movements can cause injuries.6-25 milliamps (women)† 9-30 milliamps (men)Painful shock. Muscular control is lost. This is the range where “freezing currents” start. It may not be possible to “let go.”50-150 milliampsExtremely painful shock, respiratory arrest (breathing stops), severe muscle contractions. Flexor muscles may cause holding on; extensor muscles may cause intense pushing away. Death is possible.1,000-4,300 milliamps (1-4.3 amps)Ventricular fibrillation (heart pumping action not rhythmic) occurs. Muscles contract; nerve damage occurs. Death is likely.10,000 milliamps (10 amps)Cardiac arrest and severe burns occur. Death is probable. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:43 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Low pulsed frequency is a contradiction in terms. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced electrical currents in seawater surface around just one ship's antennas. Now imagine 27 high power coastal based radars/antennas and 45 warship radars/antennas in one area. http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/14/how-cousteau-and-noaa-killed-the-reef/ Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [3] http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2002-123/2002-123f.html#end3*Current* *Reaction*1 milliampJust a faint tingle.5 milliampsSlight shock felt. Disturbing, but not painful. Most people can “let go.” However, strong involuntary movements can cause injuries.6-25 milliamps (women)† 9-30 milliamps (men)Painful shock. Muscular control is lost. This is the range where “freezing currents” start. It may not be possible to “let go.”50-150 milliampsExtremely painful shock, respiratory arrest (breathing stops), severe muscle contractions. Flexor muscles may cause holding on; extensor muscles may cause intense pushing away. Death is possible.1,000-4,300 milliamps (1-4.3 amps)Ventricular fibrillation (heart pumping action not rhythmic) occurs. Muscles contract; nerve damage occurs. Death is likely.10,000 milliamps (10 amps)Cardiac arrest and severe burns occur. Death is probable. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:43 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Low pulsed frequency is a contradiction in terms. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration.
RE: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying...
This must be done blind but even then, the experimenter effect ( Marylyn Schlitz) would override the results ( Experimenter effect https://books.google.com/books?id=OwVgHlx4KQECpg=PA138lpg=PA138dq=experimenter+effect%22+schlitz+-staringsource=blots=ydx_ZemON7sig=GyWDMrTatbkloi3-mMUEROsrUzohl=ensa=Xei=UeObVdWZE8v2oATG1byoCgved=0CCsQ6AEwAg#v=onepageq=experimenter%20effect%22% ). From: James Bowery [mailto:jabow...@gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, July 7, 2015 7:07 AM To: vortex-l Subject: Re: [Vo]:Possible cause for coral reefs dying... Thanks for the numbers. This should be relatively straight forward to test: Set up two salt water aquariums supporting comparable coral populations. Run them for a year or so to see they are stable. Then subject one of them to low frequency EM radiation. PS: What I mean contraction in terms is that pulse implies high frequency components and, indeed, is usually illustrated by time differential on a square wave to filter out the low frequency components. However, your point is well taken -- a short duration transmission of a high power low frequency signal will penetrate salt water -- with a very drastic reduction in power with depth, as your numbers show. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:50 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Low frequency pulse. Also, we are not communicating with the marine life and coral reef, the evidence is mounting that 2 terrawatts of effective isotropic radiated power (EIRP) in a local area scattered by the overhead atmosphere is mildly shocking the marine life through electromagnetic induction and conduction through the salt water near the surface as it grounds out into the ocean. You can't fool mother nature sort of thing. Here is a model of induced electrical currents in seawater surface around just one ship's antennas. Now imagine 27 high power coastal based radars/antennas and 45 warship radars/antennas in one area. http://darkmattersalot.com/2015/05/14/how-cousteau-and-noaa-killed-the-reef/ Effects of Electrical Current* on the Body [ http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/docs/2002-123/2002-123f.html#end3 3] Current Reaction 1 milliamp Just a faint tingle. 5 milliamps Slight shock felt. Disturbing, but not painful. Most people can “let go.” However, strong involuntary movements can cause injuries. 6-25 milliamps (women)† 9-30 milliamps (men) Painful shock. Muscular control is lost. This is the range where “freezing currents” start. It may not be possible to “let go.” 50-150 milliamps Extremely painful shock, respiratory arrest (breathing stops), severe muscle contractions. Flexor muscles may cause holding on; extensor muscles may cause intense pushing away. Death is possible. 1,000-4,300 milliamps (1-4.3 amps) Ventricular fibrillation (heart pumping action not rhythmic) occurs. Muscles contract; nerve damage occurs. Death is likely. 10,000 milliamps (10 amps) Cardiac arrest and severe burns occur. Death is probable. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:43 AM, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: Low pulsed frequency is a contradiction in terms. On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 7:01 AM, ChemE Stewart cheme...@gmail.com wrote: Except low pulsed frequencies On Tuesday, July 7, 2015, James Bowery jabow...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 1:42 AM, MarkI-ZeroPoint zeropo...@charter.net wrote: This is primarily meant for fellow Vort, ChemEng (Stewart), but some others may have an interest… Stewart, I think I may have a cause for your hypothesis re: a link between our modern radar systems and the dying of coral reefs… ... Time to break out the tin-foil hats??? No need. Salt water shields against EM penetration. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
