subject:"Incubation status"

Hi Ali

Please invite me to the discussion wave. My wave id is
fr...@wave-dev.alown.co.uk

Regards,
Frank


On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 12:15 PM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote:

 For those calling for a new place to both
 a) dogfood the product
 b) discuss the next development stage
 at the same time!

 Register an account on https://wave-dev.alown.co.uk, and join the
 discussions.
 (Shameless plug)

 Ali

 On 28 November 2013 15:32, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:
  @Fleeky:
 lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave ;)
 
  I agree that the dogfooding should really have been a thing, but it
  hasn't been possible here. (Though I hestitate to say whether Wave is
  stable enough for multiple users heavily editing a Wave - my anecdotal
  data says it tends to 'get stuck' around the 100 blips mark).
 
  this is precisely Why we have to dogfood it, because when the problems
  happen in something semi critical like a discussion about wave it will
 more
  likely get fixed.
 
  im glad someone is finally bringing all of this up though, it needed to
 be
  said.
 
 
  On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 4:13 PM, Christian Grobmeier 
 grobme...@gmail.comwrote:
 
  Hi,
 
 
  On 28 Nov 2013, at 15:18, Ali Lown wrote:
 
   @Christian:
 
  Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again):
 
 
  Is this still Devil's advocate though? I have had a very similar email
  sitting in my drafts for the last month asking the same questions
  about the future of Wave.
 
 
  Sad :-|
 
 
   Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now?
  If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that
  goal.
  Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the
  incubation until the community around Wave has grown.
 
 
  I shall answer your questions throughout this email, though it
  probably suffices to say that I no longer think Apache Incubator is
  the right place for Wave (in its current form).
 
 
  The Incubator has a specific goal. Maybe once the project has an active
  (developing!) community again, the ASF might be the right place again.
 One
  large benefit speaking for such an org as the ASF is that we maintain a
  clean IP. Its reducing risk for companies. However, if you start
 carefully
  with that at GitHub too its no problem. Not even to come back.
 
 
   (With retirement: what happens to the project's source code license?
  Does it become public domain instead of licensed to the ASF?)
 
 
  In ASF terms it goes to the attic which is a read-only repository. The
  code there remains in AL 2.0.
  With AL 2.0 it is possible for you to fork it to GitHub which is more
 or
  less what happens. You can
  work on the code as you like and release your own packages in the way
 you
  like.
  However you can't simply change the license of some existing code. I
 don't
  know the specifics but if you plan
  to change the license it's better to ask some other folks here at the
 ASF.
  If want to keep AL 2.0 which I would
  love, then no problem.
 
  There will be one issue to solve which is the trademarks thing. To my
  knowledge the trademark has been transferred to the ASF.
  We need to ask at Apache Branding if you want to keep the current names.
  Usually the ASF keeps trademarks. In example, the Apache iBatis
  project renamed itself to MyBatis after moving away.
 
  However in incubating projects I have seen people taking away the names
  too, like Zeta Components.
 
  Once this has been cleared it should be no problem for you to move on.
 
  Please note that you should set up a new mailinglist before the
 retirement
  happens. ML are closed once the project retires. And you certainly want
 to
  get people moving to the new resource before that happens.
 
  Please let me know if you have any more questions.
 
  Cheers
  Christian
 
 
 
 
 
  @FrankR:
 
  You already have it - wave on github. Here,
  https://github.com/apache/wave
 
 
  Yes, the code is on GitHub. (Though this is simply a one-mirror of the
  Apache SVN tree).
  [Though, if we retire the project that will no longer exist - I
  suggest watching one of the personal trees (e.g. mine)
  https://github.com/alown/wave].
  When people are calling for GitHub, they are actually asking for the
  development style that it uses: Git, Pull Requests, Quick-forking,
  Less 'paperwork'. [And to some extent the 'coolness' factor - which is
  not to be underestimated for getting development support].
 
  @Fleeky:
 
  lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave
 ;)
 
 
  I agree that the dogfooding should really have been a thing, but it
  hasn't been possible here. (Though I hestitate to say whether Wave is
  stable enough for multiple users heavily editing a Wave - my anecdotal
  data says it tends to 'get stuck' around the 100 blips mark).
 
  @Thomas:
 
  Speaking as someone unable to contribute code to the client as its too
  heavily tide into the server (which I cant make heads not

Re: Incubation status

Brilliant! I created an
eventhttps://plus.google.com/events/cbocjojr99iqo1gmsmr5m9ohams.
I'll share my limited experience. Everyone is welcomed to join.


On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:23 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.comwrote:

 Or, it might be worthwhile to do a 'hangout on air' video or a screen
 cast of installation / config / admin use.


 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Jon wright jon.wright1...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  So, it appears that I could do with running some 'tutoring' sessions
  with people to cover
  a) Running a server
  b) Advanced server admin: a) SSL, b) Federation
  c) Codebase overview - with a focus on the client side for all the GWT
  coders around.
 
  Ali
 
  That would be really useful and welcome. And even though its not
  writing code its probably more of a contribution to the project
  because thats what it needs the most.
 
  (Hop on to wave-dev.alown.co.uk and we can discuss this... :p)
 
  I cant right now because I'm in the office working. But I would say it
  would be worth while picking a time in the future where a number of us
  can go through the steps involved together. Then as other people get
  familiar with how things work, they can do the same.
 
  Good suggestion..!



 --
 Kelly Brumbelow

Re: Incubation status

On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 12:10 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:

 ok , what i would like to know.

 who among you on this mailing list is actually using wave in some capacity
 ? and for what ? do you run your own wave server ? if not why ?

I have 30 waves on my own server. The others in my team have an average of
3. My company policy is against third party cloud applications. I want the
features of google doc badly for book keeping and sharing contents among
multiple operating systems. I'm using google doc so much that I become so
lazy to press CTRL+S, and I hate to have a lot of versions of my documents
that I need to compare and merge.


 personally i run my own wave server, and use it mainly as a google doc
 replacement.

Same here - a replacement of google doc, and evernote for someone else.


 robert, first off which people are you talking about ? people on this list
 ? or the general populace? if people on this list are too scared to dip
 there toes into something that may have a few bugs then we are certainly
 doomed.

 robert, you are right but you are also wrong, your right in that the way
 your talking about is nice and orderly and logical. the problem is ,
 expecting all of that will never happen unless you personally do so. what i
 am proposing is for people to get there hands dirty in any way possible.
 can you code? great wave needs coders more then anything. but if you cant
 code, you can atleast use wave and get an idea for what works and what
 doesnt, what the bugs are, wave needs people to use it just as much as it
 needs people to make code for it at this point.

 get your hands dirty, thats all im asking

 also to answer your question : I DO draw in new users, maybe not at the
 level or speed any of you deem worthy, but i use wave to share documents
 with people. as i said i make a dummy account and then  have my friends use
 it to view a document id like them to look at. is it ideal? not at all, but
 then again wave is not at a point in its software development for there to
 be anything like an ideal.

 the point is to use , and to figure out how it can be usefull in its
 current state, rather then bickering about what it needs to be everyone's
 dream software.



 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:53 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Fleeky,
 
  i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of
  using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
  amazing. [sic]
 
  Probably because you have flawed presuppositions.
 
  I assume people who have never seen Wave have never seen Wave, not
  that they know how to use it. When teaching someone to drive a car, I
  have them observe, read, study, and after they have done the
  prerequisites I would put them in a training car.
 
  People want to see what Wave can do before they jump in and use it
  frequently.
 
  I am glad you have done all these things on your own, but tell me how
  is having done them yourself drawing in new users and developers along
  with generating interest? It may be happening, I don't see it.
 
  I am not talking about dogfooding, I am talking about intro and basic
  training so people can get up to speed.
 
  On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:40 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
 wrote:
   robert if using wave to learn wave is self defeating , i think wave the
   purpose of wave has been lost.
  
   wave is a communications platform, if it cant communicate how to use
  itself
   doesnt that seem a bit silly?
  
   an ideal situation would be publicly viewable waves that are
 potentially
   read only , or parts are (wave could use permissions).
  
   but a more realistic way that i use on my own server is to have an
   anonymous account. this way you tell people to login via that and they
  can
   interact with the waves you have shared with that account.
  
   i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of
   using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
  amazing.
  
   fleeky
  
  
   On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
 rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
   Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside
   exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use
   wave might be self defeating.
  
   On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
  wrote:
   
  https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box
   
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home
   
also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net
   
also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a
  discussion
on his wave server , why not try those things first?  and if there
 is
  a
problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave
 add
  the
participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that
  server
should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer
  your
problem.

Re: Incubation status

Where to read the requirements? And, the status of the works against them?
Thanks.


On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 4:41 AM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 29 Nov 2013, at 16:40, Fleeky Flanco wrote:

  i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of
 using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
 amazing.


 If you don't understand why we operate on a mailing list then you probably
 have
 not understood that the ASF tries to develop in an open way. All
 discussions must held
 public and must be archived for a long time. The only solution so far is
 mailing lists.
 Wave is simply not that far to provide that at the moment.

 Of course there is an opportunity to bring Wave to the ASF. But there are
 a lot of requirements
 to meet. If you want to develop here, you need to fulfill these
 requirements.

 We have discussed that several times. Every of the committers understood
 these requirements
 and were working against them. However Wave is not there yet.

 This doesn't answer the question which was initially asked: is the ASF the
 right place?
 Or more precise: can we as a project ever succeed the incubator and become
 an ASF project?

 This has nothing to do with the great technology behind Wave nor the
 willingness of people.
 It is: is there enough manpower to live the ASF way or not.

 Christian



 fleeky


 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside
 exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use
 wave might be self defeating.

 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box

 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home

 also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net

 also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a
 discussion
 on his wave server , why not try those things first?  and if there is a
 problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave add
 the
 participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that
 server
 should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer
 your
 problem.

 -fleeky


 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
 rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Thomas,
   Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts,
 they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought,
 also defaulted to being recorded.

 I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by
 students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand
 holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed
 known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke, command
 and mouse movement




 --
 Kelly Brumbelow



 ---
 http://www.grobmeier.de
 @grobmeier
 GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

Perhaps, we can have a temporary robot, say incubator-bot, to publish waves
for a wave in a box server back to the mail list. That should be too
difficult to have.


On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 6:44 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:

 christian, from my observations of the project i would have to answer no,
 its not working out ?

 pardon my passion on this subject (@mailing list) but ive kept quiet for
 too long. id rather get an argument started on this rather then let wave
 die the slow death that it is currently facing. passion is what wave needs
 right now, not patience.

 i dont think moving wave to github or getting everyone to actually use wave
 will magically make everything better, but i think that is a step in the
 right direction that Should have been taken a long time ago.

 theres no reason that moving discussion to a wave server reduces the open
 nature of the discussion, as stated previously, its trivial to make an
 anonymous account to grant anyone access to this discussion if it was on a
 wave server. also anyone can register on a wave server and participate in
 the discussion if the wave has been setup properly, theres even a patch
 somewhere for rendering wave files as html files which would make it
 searchable by google and everyone esle.  federation should make propogating
 this data to multiple servers possible, using wave as the main discussion
 area maintains the openness , searchability, and also longevity of the
 discussion.

 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  On 29 Nov 2013, at 16:40, Fleeky Flanco wrote:
 
   i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of
  using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
  amazing.
 
 
  If you don't understand why we operate on a mailing list then you
 probably
  have
  not understood that the ASF tries to develop in an open way. All
  discussions must held
  public and must be archived for a long time. The only solution so far is
  mailing lists.
  Wave is simply not that far to provide that at the moment.
 
  Of course there is an opportunity to bring Wave to the ASF. But there are
  a lot of requirements
  to meet. If you want to develop here, you need to fulfill these
  requirements.
 
  We have discussed that several times. Every of the committers understood
  these requirements
  and were working against them. However Wave is not there yet.
 
  This doesn't answer the question which was initially asked: is the ASF
 the
  right place?
  Or more precise: can we as a project ever succeed the incubator and
 become
  an ASF project?
 
  This has nothing to do with the great technology behind Wave nor the
  willingness of people.
  It is: is there enough manpower to live the ASF way or not.
 
  Christian
 
 
 
  fleeky
 
 
  On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
 rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside
  exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use
  wave might be self defeating.
 
  On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
 
 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box
 
  https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home
 
  also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net
 
  also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a
  discussion
  on his wave server , why not try those things first?  and if there is
 a
  problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave add
  the
  participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that
  server
  should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer
  your
  problem.
 
  -fleeky
 
 
  On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
  rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   Thomas,
Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts,
  they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought,
  also defaulted to being recorded.
 
  I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by
  students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand
  holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed
  known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke,
 command
  and mouse movement
 
 
 
 
  --
  Kelly Brumbelow
 
 
 
  ---
  http://www.grobmeier.de
  @grobmeier
  GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

2013-12-01 Thread Christian Grobmeier


On 1 Dec 2013, at 15:33, Frank R. wrote:

Where to read the requirements? And, the status of the works against 
them?


Here is some information you might find useful:
http://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html

Please see the communication section in special.

So far I have seen the project operates as described. However it needs 
to develop
community and of course learn to release (Ali did a great job but didn't 
found

enough support from this project).

Moving communication to Wave only is NOT an option at this point of 
time.
It has been discussed; one solution is to use Wave but send backups 
automatically
to mailing lists. There was some work in that direction, but no results 
so far.







Thanks.


On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 4:41 AM, Christian Grobmeier 
grobme...@gmail.comwrote:



On 29 Nov 2013, at 16:40, Fleeky Flanco wrote:

i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness 
of

using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
amazing.



If you don't understand why we operate on a mailing list then you 
probably

have
not understood that the ASF tries to develop in an open way. All
discussions must held
public and must be archived for a long time. The only solution so far 
is

mailing lists.
Wave is simply not that far to provide that at the moment.

Of course there is an opportunity to bring Wave to the ASF. But there 
are

a lot of requirements
to meet. If you want to develop here, you need to fulfill these
requirements.

We have discussed that several times. Every of the committers 
understood

these requirements
and were working against them. However Wave is not there yet.

This doesn't answer the question which was initially asked: is the 
ASF the

right place?
Or more precise: can we as a project ever succeed the incubator and 
become

an ASF project?

This has nothing to do with the great technology behind Wave nor the
willingness of people.
It is: is there enough manpower to live the ASF way or not.

Christian




fleeky


On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
rkbrumbe...@gmail.com

wrote:


Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside
exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to 
use

wave might be self defeating.

On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
wrote:


https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home

also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net

also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a
discussion
on his wave server , why not try those things first?  and if there 
is a
problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave 
add

the
participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that
server
should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to 
answer

your
problem.

-fleeky


On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
wrote:

Thomas,

Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts,
they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I 
thought,

also defaulted to being recorded.

I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by
students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka 
hand
holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or 
assumed
known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke, 
command

and mouse movement





--
Kelly Brumbelow




---
http://www.grobmeier.de
@grobmeier
GPG: 0xA5CC90DB




---
http://www.grobmeier.de
@grobmeier
GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

2013-12-01 Thread Christian Grobmeier


On 1 Dec 2013, at 15:35, Frank R. wrote:

Perhaps, we can have a temporary robot, say incubator-bot, to publish 
waves

for a wave in a box server back to the mail list. That should be too
difficult to have.


Please search older mails in the archive. Somebody actually did some 
work in that direction





On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 6:44 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com 
wrote:


christian, from my observations of the project i would have to answer 
no,

its not working out ?

pardon my passion on this subject (@mailing list) but ive kept quiet 
for
too long. id rather get an argument started on this rather then let 
wave
die the slow death that it is currently facing. passion is what wave 
needs

right now, not patience.

i dont think moving wave to github or getting everyone to actually 
use wave
will magically make everything better, but i think that is a step in 
the

right direction that Should have been taken a long time ago.

theres no reason that moving discussion to a wave server reduces the 
open
nature of the discussion, as stated previously, its trivial to make 
an
anonymous account to grant anyone access to this discussion if it was 
on a
wave server. also anyone can register on a wave server and 
participate in
the discussion if the wave has been setup properly, theres even a 
patch

somewhere for rendering wave files as html files which would make it
searchable by google and everyone esle.  federation should make 
propogating
this data to multiple servers possible, using wave as the main 
discussion
area maintains the openness , searchability, and also longevity of 
the

discussion.

On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Christian Grobmeier 
grobme...@gmail.com

wrote:



On 29 Nov 2013, at 16:40, Fleeky Flanco wrote:

i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness 
of

using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
amazing.



If you don't understand why we operate on a mailing list then you

probably

have
not understood that the ASF tries to develop in an open way. All
discussions must held
public and must be archived for a long time. The only solution so 
far is

mailing lists.
Wave is simply not that far to provide that at the moment.

Of course there is an opportunity to bring Wave to the ASF. But 
there are

a lot of requirements
to meet. If you want to develop here, you need to fulfill these
requirements.

We have discussed that several times. Every of the committers 
understood

these requirements
and were working against them. However Wave is not there yet.

This doesn't answer the question which was initially asked: is the 
ASF

the

right place?
Or more precise: can we as a project ever succeed the incubator and

become

an ASF project?

This has nothing to do with the great technology behind Wave nor the
willingness of people.
It is: is there enough manpower to live the ASF way or not.

Christian




fleeky


On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow 

rkbrumbe...@gmail.com

wrote:


Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside
exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to 
use

wave might be self defeating.

On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
wrote:




https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box


https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home

also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net

also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a
discussion
on his wave server , why not try those things first?  and if 
there is

a
problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave 
add

the
participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on 
that

server
should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to 
answer

your
problem.

-fleeky


On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
wrote:

Thomas,

Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts,
they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I 
thought,

also defaulted to being recorded.

I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by
students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka 
hand
holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or 
assumed

known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke,

command

and mouse movement





--
Kelly Brumbelow




---
http://www.grobmeier.de
@grobmeier
GPG: 0xA5CC90DB






---
http://www.grobmeier.de
@grobmeier
GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

2013-12-01 Thread Ali Lown

Christian is referring to CAORBtqwYOCXJK3r2QqFhqP+YQ0fas_m4U0oHX7AZiswm6CwPyQ

By 'search the archives' - yes, you can sometimes use Google for the
task. But sometimes, it is easier to simply manually look through them
for a subject that describes what you are searching for.
(In this case 'email bridge bot').

Ali

On 1 December 2013 17:00, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com wrote:
Thanks for the response. But, I don't think it can be a trivial task to
find the old mails. Because all the key words I can think of are too
commonly seen: wave, mail list, communication.

e.g. site:mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wave-commits/
communication - Google
Searchhttps://www.google.com/search?espv=210es_sm=119q=site%3Amail-archives.apache.org%2Fmod_mbox%2Fincubator-wave-commits%2F+communicationoq=site%3Amail-archives.apache.org%2Fmod_mbox%2Fincubator-wave-commits%2F+communicationgs_l=serp.3...5525.10115.0.10476.21.17.4.0.0.1.424.2205.8j3j4j0j1.16.0.starcuni...0...1.1.32.serp..21.0.0.wFjSHgW9WHU

On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 11:30 PM, Christian Grobmeier
grobme...@gmail.comwrote:

On 1 Dec 2013, at 15:35, Frank R. wrote:

Perhaps, we can have a temporary robot, say incubator-bot, to publish
waves
for a wave in a box server back to the mail list. That should be too
difficult to have.

Please search older mails in the archive. Somebody actually did some work
in that direction

On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 6:44 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:

christian, from my observations of the project i would have to answer no,
its not working out ?

pardon my passion on this subject (@mailing list) but ive kept quiet for
too long. id rather get an argument started on this rather then let wave
die the slow death that it is currently facing. passion is what wave
needs
right now, not patience.

i dont think moving wave to github or getting everyone to actually use
wave
will magically make everything better, but i think that is a step in the
right direction that Should have been taken a long time ago.

theres no reason that moving discussion to a wave server reduces the open
nature of the discussion, as stated previously, its trivial to make an
anonymous account to grant anyone access to this discussion if it was on
a
wave server. also anyone can register on a wave server and participate in
the discussion if the wave has been setup properly, theres even a patch
somewhere for rendering wave files as html files which would make it
searchable by google and everyone esle. federation should make
propogating
this data to multiple servers possible, using wave as the main discussion
area maintains the openness , searchability, and also longevity of the
discussion.

On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Christian Grobmeier
grobme...@gmail.com

wrote:

On 29 Nov 2013, at 16:40, Fleeky Flanco wrote:

i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of

using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
amazing.

If you don't understand why we operate on a mailing list then you

probably

have
not understood that the ASF tries to develop in an open way. All
discussions must held
public and must be archived for a long time. The only solution so far is
mailing lists.
Wave is simply not that far to provide that at the moment.

Of course there is an opportunity to bring Wave to the ASF. But there
are
a lot of requirements
to meet. If you want to develop here, you need to fulfill these
requirements.

We have discussed that several times. Every of the committers understood
these requirements
and were working against them. However Wave is not there yet.

This doesn't answer the question which was initially asked: is the ASF

the

right place?
Or more precise: can we as a project ever succeed the incubator and

become

an ASF project?

This has nothing to do with the great technology behind Wave nor the
willingness of people.
It is: is there enough manpower to live the ASF way or not.

Christian

fleeky

On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow

rkbrumbe...@gmail.com

wrote:

Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside

exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use
wave might be self defeating.

On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
wrote:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/
Building+Wave+in+a+Box

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home

also there is #wiab on irc.freenode.net

also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a
discussion
on his wave server , why not try those things first? and if there is

problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave add
the
participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that
server
should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer
your
problem.

-fleeky

On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM,

Re: Incubation status

On 29 November 2013 16:05, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:

 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box

 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home

 also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net



Ok, trying to follow this guide to setup for client development.

Stuck #1;

Wheres the latest source?

Re: Incubation status

2013-12-01 Thread Yuri Z

The latest source code:
http://incubator.apache.org/wave/source-code.html


On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 29 November 2013 16:05, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:

  https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box
 
  https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home
 
  also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net



 Ok, trying to follow this guide to setup for client development.

 Stuck #1;

 Wheres the latest source?

Re: Incubation status

cheers :)

~~~
Thomas  Bertines online review show:
http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


On 1 December 2013 21:35, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote:

 The latest source code:
 http://incubator.apache.org/wave/source-code.html


 On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote:

  On 29 November 2013 16:05, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  
 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box
  
   https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home
  
   also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net
 
 
 
  Ok, trying to follow this guide to setup for client development.
 
  Stuck #1;
 
  Wheres the latest source?

Re: Incubation status

ok, svn checkout;

Note #1: Get an
Error validating server certificate for https://svn.apache.org:443:
Unknown certificate issuer.
Fingerprint: bc:5f:40:92:fd:6a:49:aa:f8:b8:35:0d:ed:27:5e:a6:64:c1:7a:1b
 Thawte, Inc., US

I accept once and proceed.

(I am just documenting anything that might put people off getting started)





~~~
Thomas  Bertines online review show:
http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


On 1 December 2013 22:26, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote:

 cheers :)

 ~~~
 Thomas  Bertines online review show:
 http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
 Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


 On 1 December 2013 21:35, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote:

 The latest source code:
 http://incubator.apache.org/wave/source-code.html


 On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  On 29 November 2013 16:05, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  
 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box
  
   https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home
  
   also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net
 
 
 
  Ok, trying to follow this guide to setup for client development.
 
  Stuck #1;
 
  Wheres the latest source?

Re: Incubation status

2013-12-01 Thread Angus Turner

A wiki page or a new thread might be better for this - kind of off topic...

Thanks
Angus Turner
angusisf...@gmail.com



On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote:

 ok, svn checkout;

 Note #1: Get an
 Error validating server certificate for https://svn.apache.org:443:
 Unknown certificate issuer.
 Fingerprint: bc:5f:40:92:fd:6a:49:aa:f8:b8:35:0d:ed:27:5e:a6:64:c1:7a:1b
  Thawte, Inc., US

 I accept once and proceed.

 (I am just documenting anything that might put people off getting started)





 ~~~
 Thomas  Bertines online review show:
 http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
 Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


 On 1 December 2013 22:26, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote:

  cheers :)
 
  ~~~
  Thomas  Bertines online review show:
  http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
  Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
 
 
  On 1 December 2013 21:35, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  The latest source code:
  http://incubator.apache.org/wave/source-code.html
 
 
  On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   On 29 November 2013 16:05, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:
  
   
  https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box
   
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home
   
also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net
  
  
  
   Ok, trying to follow this guide to setup for client development.
  
   Stuck #1;
  
   Wheres the latest source?

Re: Incubation status

2013-12-01 Thread Angus Turner

Or a wave ;)
On a more serious note this is something that needs doing - and something
I've been meaning to do for a while. Start with a clean slate on each major
OS (Mac OSX, Ubuntu, Win8 and possibly WinXP) and write down exactly what
needs doing or what errors come up.

If you begin to do this it'd be great to document it somewhere like the
wiki..

Thanks
Angus Turner
angusisf...@gmail.com



On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote:

 ora wave? ;)
 It is sort-of on-topic to the earlier discussion as to how to get more
 activity. But yes, it might be getting too sidetracked.



 ~~~
 Thomas  Bertines online review show:
 http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
 Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


 On 1 December 2013 22:46, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com wrote:

  A wiki page or a new thread might be better for this - kind of off
 topic...
 
  Thanks
  Angus Turner
  angusisf...@gmail.com
 
 
 
  On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
   ok, svn checkout;
  
   Note #1: Get an
   Error validating server certificate for https://svn.apache.org:443:
   Unknown certificate issuer.
   Fingerprint:
 bc:5f:40:92:fd:6a:49:aa:f8:b8:35:0d:ed:27:5e:a6:64:c1:7a:1b
Thawte, Inc., US
  
   I accept once and proceed.
  
   (I am just documenting anything that might put people off getting
  started)
  
  
  
  
  
   ~~~
   Thomas  Bertines online review show:
   http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
   Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
  
  
   On 1 December 2013 22:26, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote:
  
cheers :)
   
~~~
Thomas  Bertines online review show:
http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
   
   
On 1 December 2013 21:35, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote:
   
The latest source code:
http://incubator.apache.org/wave/source-code.html
   
   
On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com
wrote:
   
 On 29 November 2013 16:05, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 
   
  https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box
 
  https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home
 
  also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net



 Ok, trying to follow this guide to setup for client development.

 Stuck #1;

 Wheres the latest source?

Re: Incubation status

No problem, at the moment its still checking out.
I'll note down any other issues other then those two as I get any.
(Actually still on WindowsXP here ;) )

~~~
Thomas  Bertines online review show:
http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


On 1 December 2013 23:02, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com wrote:

 Or a wave ;)
 On a more serious note this is something that needs doing - and something
 I've been meaning to do for a while. Start with a clean slate on each major
 OS (Mac OSX, Ubuntu, Win8 and possibly WinXP) and write down exactly what
 needs doing or what errors come up.

 If you begin to do this it'd be great to document it somewhere like the
 wiki..

 Thanks
 Angus Turner
 angusisf...@gmail.com



 On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote:

  ora wave? ;)
  It is sort-of on-topic to the earlier discussion as to how to get more
  activity. But yes, it might be getting too sidetracked.
 
 
 
  ~~~
  Thomas  Bertines online review show:
  http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
  Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
 
 
  On 1 December 2013 22:46, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   A wiki page or a new thread might be better for this - kind of off
  topic...
  
   Thanks
   Angus Turner
   angusisf...@gmail.com
  
  
  
   On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
ok, svn checkout;
   
Note #1: Get an
Error validating server certificate for https://svn.apache.org:443:
Unknown certificate issuer.
Fingerprint:
  bc:5f:40:92:fd:6a:49:aa:f8:b8:35:0d:ed:27:5e:a6:64:c1:7a:1b
 Thawte, Inc., US
   
I accept once and proceed.
   
(I am just documenting anything that might put people off getting
   started)
   
   
   
   
   
~~~
Thomas  Bertines online review show:
http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
   
   
On 1 December 2013 22:26, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote:
   
 cheers :)

 ~~~
 Thomas  Bertines online review show:
 http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
 Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


 On 1 December 2013 21:35, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote:

 The latest source code:
 http://incubator.apache.org/wave/source-code.html


 On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Thomas Wrobel 
 darkfl...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  On 29 November 2013 16:05, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
  

  
 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box
  
   https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home
  
   also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net
 
 
 
  Ok, trying to follow this guide to setup for client development.
 
  Stuck #1;
 
  Wheres the latest source?

Re: Incubation status

2013-12-01 Thread Angus Turner

It is quite a large repo :)

Thanks
Angus Turner
angusisf...@gmail.com



On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 9:05 AM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote:

 No problem, at the moment its still checking out.
 I'll note down any other issues other then those two as I get any.
 (Actually still on WindowsXP here ;) )

 ~~~
 Thomas  Bertines online review show:
 http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
 Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


 On 1 December 2013 23:02, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com wrote:

  Or a wave ;)
  On a more serious note this is something that needs doing - and something
  I've been meaning to do for a while. Start with a clean slate on each
 major
  OS (Mac OSX, Ubuntu, Win8 and possibly WinXP) and write down exactly what
  needs doing or what errors come up.
 
  If you begin to do this it'd be great to document it somewhere like the
  wiki..
 
  Thanks
  Angus Turner
  angusisf...@gmail.com
 
 
 
  On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
   ora wave? ;)
   It is sort-of on-topic to the earlier discussion as to how to get more
   activity. But yes, it might be getting too sidetracked.
  
  
  
   ~~~
   Thomas  Bertines online review show:
   http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
   Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
  
  
   On 1 December 2013 22:46, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com wrote:
  
A wiki page or a new thread might be better for this - kind of off
   topic...
   
Thanks
Angus Turner
angusisf...@gmail.com
   
   
   
On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com
   wrote:
   
 ok, svn checkout;

 Note #1: Get an
 Error validating server certificate for
 https://svn.apache.org:443:
 Unknown certificate issuer.
 Fingerprint:
   bc:5f:40:92:fd:6a:49:aa:f8:b8:35:0d:ed:27:5e:a6:64:c1:7a:1b
  Thawte, Inc., US

 I accept once and proceed.

 (I am just documenting anything that might put people off getting
started)





 ~~~
 Thomas  Bertines online review show:
 http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
 Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


 On 1 December 2013 22:26, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  cheers :)
 
  ~~~
  Thomas  Bertines online review show:
  http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
  Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
 
 
  On 1 December 2013 21:35, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  The latest source code:
  http://incubator.apache.org/wave/source-code.html
 
 
  On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Thomas Wrobel 
  darkfl...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   On 29 November 2013 16:05, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
   wrote:
  
   
 
   
  https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box
   
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home
   
also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net
  
  
  
   Ok, trying to follow this guide to setup for client
 development.
  
   Stuck #1;
  
   Wheres the latest source?

Re: Incubation status

Thank you. I got it. Email bridge
bothttp://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wave-dev/201306.mbox/%3ccaorbtqwyocxjk3r2qqfhqp+yq0fas_m4u0ohx7aziswm6cw...@mail.gmail.com%3E

On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 1:04 AM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote:

Christian is referring to
CAORBtqwYOCXJK3r2QqFhqP+YQ0fas_m4U0oHX7AZiswm6CwPyQ

Ali

e.g. site:mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-wave-commits/
communication - Google
Search
https://www.google.com/search?espv=210es_sm=119q=site%3Amail-archives.apache.org%2Fmod_mbox%2Fincubator-wave-commits%2F+communicationoq=site%3Amail-archives.apache.org%2Fmod_mbox%2Fincubator-wave-commits%2F+communicationgs_l=serp.3...5525.10115.0.10476.21.17.4.0.0.1.424.2205.8j3j4j0j1.16.0.starcuni...0...1.1.32.serp..21.0.0.wFjSHgW9WHU

On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 11:30 PM, Christian Grobmeier
grobme...@gmail.comwrote:

On 1 Dec 2013, at 15:35, Frank R. wrote:

Perhaps, we can have a temporary robot, say incubator-bot, to publish
waves
for a wave in a box server back to the mail list. That should be too
difficult to have.

Please search older mails in the archive. Somebody actually did some
work
in that direction

On Sat, Nov 30, 2013 at 6:44 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
wrote:

christian, from my observations of the project i would have to answer
no,
its not working out ?

pardon my passion on this subject (@mailing list) but ive kept quiet
for
too long. id rather get an argument started on this rather then let
wave
die the slow death that it is currently facing. passion is what wave
needs
right now, not patience.

i dont think moving wave to github or getting everyone to actually use
wave
will magically make everything better, but i think that is a step in
the
right direction that Should have been taken a long time ago.

theres no reason that moving discussion to a wave server reduces the
open
nature of the discussion, as stated previously, its trivial to make an
anonymous account to grant anyone access to this discussion if it was
on
a
wave server. also anyone can register on a wave server and
participate in
the discussion if the wave has been setup properly, theres even a
patch
somewhere for rendering wave files as html files which would make it
searchable by google and everyone esle. federation should make
propogating
this data to multiple servers possible, using wave as the main
discussion
area maintains the openness , searchability, and also longevity of the
discussion.

On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Christian Grobmeier
grobme...@gmail.com

wrote:

On 29 Nov 2013, at 16:40, Fleeky Flanco wrote:

i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness
of

using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
amazing.

If you don't understand why we operate on a mailing list then you

probably

have
not understood that the ASF tries to develop in an open way. All
discussions must held
public and must be archived for a long time. The only solution so
far is
mailing lists.
Wave is simply not that far to provide that at the moment.

Of course there is an opportunity to bring Wave to the ASF. But there
are
a lot of requirements
to meet. If you want to develop here, you need to fulfill these
requirements.

We have discussed that several times. Every of the committers
understood
these requirements
and were working against them. However Wave is not there yet.

This doesn't answer the question which was initially asked: is the
ASF

the

right place?
Or more precise: can we as a project ever succeed the incubator and

become

an ASF project?

This has nothing to do with the great technology behind Wave nor the
willingness of people.
It is: is there enough manpower to live the ASF way or not.

Christian

fleeky

On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow

rkbrumbe...@gmail.com

wrote:

Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside

exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to
use
wave might be self defeating.

On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
wrote:

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/
Building+Wave+in+a+Box

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home

also there is #wiab on irc.freenode.net

also Ali just a few

Re: Incubation status

It'll get slim once mavenized.


On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 6:06 AM, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com wrote:

 It is quite a large repo :)

 Thanks
 Angus Turner
 angusisf...@gmail.com



 On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 9:05 AM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote:

  No problem, at the moment its still checking out.
  I'll note down any other issues other then those two as I get any.
  (Actually still on WindowsXP here ;) )
 
  ~~~
  Thomas  Bertines online review show:
  http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
  Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
 
 
  On 1 December 2013 23:02, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   Or a wave ;)
   On a more serious note this is something that needs doing - and
 something
   I've been meaning to do for a while. Start with a clean slate on each
  major
   OS (Mac OSX, Ubuntu, Win8 and possibly WinXP) and write down exactly
 what
   needs doing or what errors come up.
  
   If you begin to do this it'd be great to document it somewhere like the
   wiki..
  
   Thanks
   Angus Turner
   angusisf...@gmail.com
  
  
  
   On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
ora wave? ;)
It is sort-of on-topic to the earlier discussion as to how to get
 more
activity. But yes, it might be getting too sidetracked.
   
   
   
~~~
Thomas  Bertines online review show:
http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
   
   
On 1 December 2013 22:46, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com
 wrote:
   
 A wiki page or a new thread might be better for this - kind of off
topic...

 Thanks
 Angus Turner
 angusisf...@gmail.com



 On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com
 
wrote:

  ok, svn checkout;
 
  Note #1: Get an
  Error validating server certificate for
  https://svn.apache.org:443:
  Unknown certificate issuer.
  Fingerprint:
bc:5f:40:92:fd:6a:49:aa:f8:b8:35:0d:ed:27:5e:a6:64:c1:7a:1b
   Thawte, Inc., US
 
  I accept once and proceed.
 
  (I am just documenting anything that might put people off getting
 started)
 
 
 
 
 
  ~~~
  Thomas  Bertines online review show:
  http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
  Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
 
 
  On 1 December 2013 22:26, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   cheers :)
  
   ~~~
   Thomas  Bertines online review show:
   http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
   Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
  
  
   On 1 December 2013 21:35, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote:
  
   The latest source code:
   http://incubator.apache.org/wave/source-code.html
  
  
   On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Thomas Wrobel 
   darkfl...@gmail.com
   wrote:
  
On 29 November 2013 16:05, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
wrote:
   

  

  
 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box

 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home

 also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net
   
   
   
Ok, trying to follow this guide to setup for client
  development.
   
Stuck #1;
   
Wheres the latest source?

Re: Incubation status

2013-12-01 Thread Michael MacFadden

I would still be more than happy to press through the mavenization, but it
seemed like people were some what against the idea until we got the
release out the door historically.

Thoughts?

On 12/1/13, 5:37 PM, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com wrote:

It'll get slim once mavenized.


On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 6:06 AM, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com
wrote:

 It is quite a large repo :)

 Thanks
 Angus Turner
 angusisf...@gmail.com



 On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 9:05 AM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com
wrote:

  No problem, at the moment its still checking out.
  I'll note down any other issues other then those two as I get any.
  (Actually still on WindowsXP here ;) )
 
  ~~~
  Thomas  Bertines online review show:
  http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
  Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
 
 
  On 1 December 2013 23:02, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   Or a wave ;)
   On a more serious note this is something that needs doing - and
 something
   I've been meaning to do for a while. Start with a clean slate on
each
  major
   OS (Mac OSX, Ubuntu, Win8 and possibly WinXP) and write down exactly
 what
   needs doing or what errors come up.
  
   If you begin to do this it'd be great to document it somewhere like
the
   wiki..
  
   Thanks
   Angus Turner
   angusisf...@gmail.com
  
  
  
   On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 8:58 AM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
ora wave? ;)
It is sort-of on-topic to the earlier discussion as to how to get
 more
activity. But yes, it might be getting too sidetracked.
   
   
   
~~~
Thomas  Bertines online review show:
http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
   
   
On 1 December 2013 22:46, Angus Turner angusisf...@gmail.com
 wrote:
   
 A wiki page or a new thread might be better for this - kind of
off
topic...

 Thanks
 Angus Turner
 angusisf...@gmail.com



 On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 8:34 AM, Thomas Wrobel
darkfl...@gmail.com
 
wrote:

  ok, svn checkout;
 
  Note #1: Get an
  Error validating server certificate for
  https://svn.apache.org:443:
  Unknown certificate issuer.
  Fingerprint:
bc:5f:40:92:fd:6a:49:aa:f8:b8:35:0d:ed:27:5e:a6:64:c1:7a:1b
   Thawte, Inc., US
 
  I accept once and proceed.
 
  (I am just documenting anything that might put people off
getting
 started)
 
 
 
 
 
  ~~~
  Thomas  Bertines online review show:
  http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
  Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
 
 
  On 1 December 2013 22:26, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   cheers :)
  
   ~~~
   Thomas  Bertines online review show:
   http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
   Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
  
  
   On 1 December 2013 21:35, Yuri Z vega...@gmail.com wrote:
  
   The latest source code:
   http://incubator.apache.org/wave/source-code.html
  
  
   On Sun, Dec 1, 2013 at 8:19 PM, Thomas Wrobel 
   darkfl...@gmail.com
   wrote:
  
On 29 November 2013 16:05, Fleeky Flanco
fle...@gmail.com
wrote:
   

  

  
 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box

 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home

 also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net
   
   
   
Ok, trying to follow this guide to setup for client
  development.
   
Stuck #1;
   
Wheres the latest source?

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-29 Thread Jeff

Hi Im on vacation  am writing from my phone... I really just wanted to add 
that I have been lurking on the mailing list to try  get a feel for the 
project. I am Looking forward to working on it irrespective of org form. Jeff

Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote:
@Christian:
Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again):

Is this still Devil's advocate though? I have had a very similar email
sitting in my drafts for the last month asking the same questions
about the future of Wave.

Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now?
If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that
goal.
Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the
incubation until the community around Wave has grown.

I shall answer your questions throughout this email, though it
probably suffices to say that I no longer think Apache Incubator is
the right place for Wave (in its current form).
(With retirement: what happens to the project's source code license?
Does it become public domain instead of licensed to the ASF?)


@FrankR:
You already have it - wave on github. Here,
https://github.com/apache/wave

Yes, the code is on GitHub. (Though this is simply a one-mirror of the
Apache SVN tree).
[Though, if we retire the project that will no longer exist - I
suggest watching one of the personal trees (e.g. mine)
https://github.com/alown/wave].
When people are calling for GitHub, they are actually asking for the
development style that it uses: Git, Pull Requests, Quick-forking,
Less 'paperwork'. [And to some extent the 'coolness' factor - which is
not to be underestimated for getting development support].

@Fleeky:
lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave
;)

I agree that the dogfooding should really have been a thing, but it
hasn't been possible here. (Though I hestitate to say whether Wave is
stable enough for multiple users heavily editing a Wave - my anecdotal
data says it tends to 'get stuck' around the 100 blips mark).

@Thomas:
 Speaking as someone unable to contribute code to the client as its
too
 heavily tide into the server (which I cant make heads not tails of),

This is a major contention point. It is definitely too tied together,
but because of this, it is very difficult to separate it now... (But
this is something that must be done).

@Thomas/FrankR:
how will any move effect things? how will it help? wont it just be
rearranging
 things again that have little, if anything, to do with getting
anything
 actually done?

It would indeed seem mostly arbitrary with regards to the tooling. The
ethic however is quite different for GH projects, compared to Apache
projects. (And I would argue it is this, that is part of the reason we
struggle to maintain active developers here).

The other problem, is that at ~500,000 LOC of Java, it is not easy for
new people to get involved. (@Ewan: This ties in to your point, but it
would take more than a few weeks to get someone familiar with this
codebase [I have been focused almost exclusively on the server code
for the last ~3 years, but I still couldn't tell you exactly how it
all fits together - which is why the corruption issues are still
outstanding]).

 I am still massively enthusiastic about WFP as a communication
method, and
 making a good reference client and server is the way to push it.

This I agree with, but it also tells us what our actual aim should be:
A clearly separated library for using WFP to create things - of which
the client/server are examples...

Ultimately, from my point of view, a move to GitHub would provide us
with several things:
- Full Git integration (The Apache system is still very awkward to use
and git-svn still chokes on things occasionally).
- The GitHub 'ethic' - hard to explain
- The opportunity to change the working style. I feel that the
'meritocracy' approach only works well for clearly established
projects. Wave has too many options - and it is this that is dividing
the effort going in to it. Making decisions here is proving incredibly
difficult, getting votes for releases is very difficult, etc. As such,
I would push for a much clearer philosophy of the 'new project'.

Sorry about the long email. :)
Comments?

Ali

-- 
Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-29 Thread Upayavira

The way open source communities such as this one work, the road map
needs to be defined by the people doing the work. It would be easy for
some of us to come up with a cool roadmap, but if coders aren't behind
it, it will be pointless effort.

If folks are interested in coding Wave, whether at Apache or elsewhere,
I'd encourage them to jump in and start suggesting where they think it
should go.

Upayavira

On Fri, Nov 29, 2013, at 11:37 AM, Thomas Wrobel wrote:
 Wave really lacks a roadmap?
 Surely that's something that could be hammered out, at least in rough, in
 this mailing list?
 
 Seems to be some agreement on the need to separate client/server. And I
 guess with that comes the need for a documented protocol between the two.
 Is there other prerequests for these? (Not necessarily saying this is the
 #1 thing, merely something to get the ball rolling on the next few steps
 to
 take)
 
 
 
 ~~~
 Thomas  Bertines online review show:
 http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
 Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
 
 
 On 29 November 2013 05:27, Jeff j...@kropek.org wrote:
 
  Hi Im on vacation  am writing from my phone... I really just wanted to
  add that I have been lurking on the mailing list to try  get a feel for
  the project. I am Looking forward to working on it irrespective of org
  form. Jeff
 
  Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote:
  @Christian:
  Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again):
  
  Is this still Devil's advocate though? I have had a very similar email
  sitting in my drafts for the last month asking the same questions
  about the future of Wave.
  
  Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now?
  If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that
  goal.
  Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the
  incubation until the community around Wave has grown.
  
  I shall answer your questions throughout this email, though it
  probably suffices to say that I no longer think Apache Incubator is
  the right place for Wave (in its current form).
  (With retirement: what happens to the project's source code license?
  Does it become public domain instead of licensed to the ASF?)
  
  
  @FrankR:
  You already have it - wave on github. Here,
  https://github.com/apache/wave
  
  Yes, the code is on GitHub. (Though this is simply a one-mirror of the
  Apache SVN tree).
  [Though, if we retire the project that will no longer exist - I
  suggest watching one of the personal trees (e.g. mine)
  https://github.com/alown/wave].
  When people are calling for GitHub, they are actually asking for the
  development style that it uses: Git, Pull Requests, Quick-forking,
  Less 'paperwork'. [And to some extent the 'coolness' factor - which is
  not to be underestimated for getting development support].
  
  @Fleeky:
  lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave
  ;)
  
  I agree that the dogfooding should really have been a thing, but it
  hasn't been possible here. (Though I hestitate to say whether Wave is
  stable enough for multiple users heavily editing a Wave - my anecdotal
  data says it tends to 'get stuck' around the 100 blips mark).
  
  @Thomas:
   Speaking as someone unable to contribute code to the client as its
  too
   heavily tide into the server (which I cant make heads not tails of),
  
  This is a major contention point. It is definitely too tied together,
  but because of this, it is very difficult to separate it now... (But
  this is something that must be done).
  
  @Thomas/FrankR:
  how will any move effect things? how will it help? wont it just be
  rearranging
   things again that have little, if anything, to do with getting
  anything
   actually done?
  
  It would indeed seem mostly arbitrary with regards to the tooling. The
  ethic however is quite different for GH projects, compared to Apache
  projects. (And I would argue it is this, that is part of the reason we
  struggle to maintain active developers here).
  
  The other problem, is that at ~500,000 LOC of Java, it is not easy for
  new people to get involved. (@Ewan: This ties in to your point, but it
  would take more than a few weeks to get someone familiar with this
  codebase [I have been focused almost exclusively on the server code
  for the last ~3 years, but I still couldn't tell you exactly how it
  all fits together - which is why the corruption issues are still
  outstanding]).
  
   I am still massively enthusiastic about WFP as a communication
  method, and
   making a good reference client and server is the way to push it.
  
  This I agree with, but it also tells us what our actual aim should be:
  A clearly separated library for using WFP to create things - of which
  the client/server are examples...
  
  Ultimately, from my point of view, a move to GitHub would provide us
  with several things:
  - Full Git integration (The Apache system is still very awkward to use
  and git-svn still chokes

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-29 Thread Raphael Bircher


Hi Upayavira

Am 29.11.13 13:24, schrieb Upayavira:

The way open source communities such as this one work, the road map
needs to be defined by the people doing the work. It would be easy for
some of us to come up with a cool roadmap, but if coders aren't behind
it, it will be pointless effort.
That's true. I have just the feeling, that wave is a bit loost in space. 
I don't talk about a long time roadmap. I talk about a short roadmap, 
from release to release.


If folks are interested in coding Wave, whether at Apache or elsewhere,
I'd encourage them to jump in and start suggesting where they think it
should go.
I just want to say, that in my point of view, the Apache Structure is 
not the problem. I beleve a move to GitHub will not help for the long 
term. For my point of view, it's the wrong way to adress the problem.


Greetings Raphael

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-29 Thread Christian Grobmeier


On 29 Nov 2013, at 13:50, Raphael Bircher wrote:


Hi Upayavira

Am 29.11.13 13:24, schrieb Upayavira:

The way open source communities such as this one work, the road map
needs to be defined by the people doing the work. It would be easy 
for
some of us to come up with a cool roadmap, but if coders aren't 
behind

it, it will be pointless effort.
That's true. I have just the feeling, that wave is a bit loost in 
space. I don't talk about a long time roadmap. I talk about a short 
roadmap, from release to release.


We have had a roadmap. It was simple: push out the next release.
Even for release checking and voting were hardly people available.
Ali Lown put a lot of time into the RC and got only less responses. To 
less.


At the same time a lot of people showed up here and discussed potential 
options for future directions of Wave.
When the dust settled the discussions had some kind of a consens but 
(almost?) nobody put in actual code.


More than people discussing the future Wave needs people creating the 
future - writing code.


Everybody on this list can easily check out the codebase and send back 
patches. No need to discuss if somebody
has experience in GWT or not. IF you want to contribute, just DO it. 
Checkout code, send patches. Its open to all.




If folks are interested in coding Wave, whether at Apache or 
elsewhere,
I'd encourage them to jump in and start suggesting where they think 
it

should go.
I just want to say, that in my point of view, the Apache Structure is 
not the problem. I beleve a move to GitHub will not help for the long 
term. For my point of view, it's the wrong way to adress the problem.


The incubator has a specific goal: create a community around a product 
which is able to self govern.
Wave has not managed to build up a community since 2010-12-04. So far 
there are many interested and curious people but nobody

actually works on the project.

With discussing the end of incubation i don't want to solve the actual 
problem of this project. Actually I can't.

The people around this project need to that.

The incubator is a complicated environment with many rules. With going 
out of the incubator this project would have to follow less rules. 
Patches can be accepted more easily (github is easier than the ASF in 
that perspective).


I have no problem with leaving Wave a little longer here. But so far I 
don't see any sense in doing so as nothing happens here.
And I say this even when I like Wave and with deep respect to the few 
people who actually contributed in the past.


Cheers
Christian



Greetings Raphael



---
http://www.grobmeier.de
@grobmeier
GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

. No need to discuss if somebody
has experience in GWT or not. IF you want to contribute, just DO it.
Checkout code, send patches. Its open to all.

I think the point was that having experience with GWT does
not necessarily give you the experience enough to make contributions.  I
could easily donate enough time to fix client side stuffbut last time I
tried (which I confess was almost a year ago), I couldn't make head nor
tails of how to put my knowledge of GWT to use. The shear massive amount of
code and how it interrelates was just overwhelming.
Thus all I have ever contributed was a passage on the history of Wave. I
have thus have no rights whatsoever to say were wave should go, or how.
Thats indeed upto the real contributors.
But I do think its (probably) somewhat usefull for people like me and Frank
R. to list our skills, and whats holding us back from contributing. For me
personally its not the bureaucracy of Apache, but rather the
but the fact that I have to work out how to compile and run my own server
even to make the most minor client change.
I have no specific objections to GitHub, I just dont think it will help
either.

Perhaps if other potential coders gave reasons for their lack of commits
it would help paint a picture of whats holding Wave back?

~~~
Thomas  Bertines online review show:
http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


On 29 November 2013 14:07, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com wrote:

 On 29 Nov 2013, at 13:50, Raphael Bircher wrote:

  Hi Upayavira

 Am 29.11.13 13:24, schrieb Upayavira:

 The way open source communities such as this one work, the road map
 needs to be defined by the people doing the work. It would be easy for
 some of us to come up with a cool roadmap, but if coders aren't behind
 it, it will be pointless effort.

 That's true. I have just the feeling, that wave is a bit loost in space.
 I don't talk about a long time roadmap. I talk about a short roadmap, from
 release to release.


 We have had a roadmap. It was simple: push out the next release.
 Even for release checking and voting were hardly people available.
 Ali Lown put a lot of time into the RC and got only less responses. To
 less.

 At the same time a lot of people showed up here and discussed potential
 options for future directions of Wave.
 When the dust settled the discussions had some kind of a consens but
 (almost?) nobody put in actual code.

 More than people discussing the future Wave needs people creating the
 future - writing code.

 Everybody on this list can easily check out the codebase and send back
 patches. No need to discuss if somebody
 has experience in GWT or not. IF you want to contribute, just DO it.
 Checkout code, send patches. Its open to all.



 If folks are interested in coding Wave, whether at Apache or elsewhere,
 I'd encourage them to jump in and start suggesting where they think it
 should go.

 I just want to say, that in my point of view, the Apache Structure is not
 the problem. I beleve a move to GitHub will not help for the long term. For
 my point of view, it's the wrong way to adress the problem.


 The incubator has a specific goal: create a community around a product
 which is able to self govern.
 Wave has not managed to build up a community since 2010-12-04. So far
 there are many interested and curious people but nobody
 actually works on the project.

 With discussing the end of incubation i don't want to solve the actual
 problem of this project. Actually I can't.
 The people around this project need to that.

 The incubator is a complicated environment with many rules. With going out
 of the incubator this project would have to follow less rules. Patches can
 be accepted more easily (github is easier than the ASF in that perspective).

 I have no problem with leaving Wave a little longer here. But so far I
 don't see any sense in doing so as nothing happens here.
 And I say this even when I like Wave and with deep respect to the few
 people who actually contributed in the past.

 Cheers
 Christian


 Greetings Raphael



 ---
 http://www.grobmeier.de
 @grobmeier
 GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-29 Thread Pratik Paranjape

Hello All.

I think its important to consider whether staying at Apache is even a
choice at this juncture. This is the second time Christian has raised
question about incubator being a suitable place for Wave. It appears that
Apache expects given amount of activity/progress for a project to be
considered sufficiently active. Some posts in this discussion are probably
assuming that moving away is a strategic decision. Its not. It can
certainly be looked at positively, but its more a suggestion from the
project mentor.

Several companies are housing there open source projects at Github. Its
just a collaboration medium. Wave is still going to need a governing body,
people who are responsible for authenticity and quality of code among other
things. Its no different than having designated committers when we are at
Apache. Just being an incubator project does not guarantee code quality or
any of the goodies unless there are actual project contributors taking care
of things like code review.

Github may help to build up a community, processes being easier to follow
and with more visibility among the programming community. Project will have
to be careful to not loose the openness in the absence of governing
organization like Apache. If Wave gains sufficient momentum, we can always
think of  coming back to Apache or any of the other Open Source initiatives
for that matter. Nothing succeeds like success.

The important things to consider before the actual move is done is to have
quick process set up, a Google discussion group, canonical Github tree,
trademarks questions etc. Even these things need lot of attention. It will
always boil down to availability of interested parties who can contribute
enough time. Good thing is, as long as the code and related IPs are under
open source license, project has an existence of it's own irrespective of
organizations, whoever has time and ideas can take it forward.

Cheers.
Pratik.


On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Raphael Bircher r.birc...@gmx.ch wrote:

 Hi Upayavira

 Am 29.11.13 13:24, schrieb Upayavira:

  The way open source communities such as this one work, the road map
 needs to be defined by the people doing the work. It would be easy for
 some of us to come up with a cool roadmap, but if coders aren't behind
 it, it will be pointless effort.

 That's true. I have just the feeling, that wave is a bit loost in space. I
 don't talk about a long time roadmap. I talk about a short roadmap, from
 release to release.


 If folks are interested in coding Wave, whether at Apache or elsewhere,
 I'd encourage them to jump in and start suggesting where they think it
 should go.

 I just want to say, that in my point of view, the Apache Structure is not
 the problem. I beleve a move to GitHub will not help for the long term. For
 my point of view, it's the wrong way to adress the problem.

 Greetings Raphael

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-29 Thread Christian Grobmeier


On 29 Nov 2013, at 14:28, Thomas Wrobel wrote:


. No need to discuss if somebody
has experience in GWT or not. IF you want to contribute, just DO it.
Checkout code, send patches. Its open to all.

I think the point was that having experience with GWT does
not necessarily give you the experience enough to make contributions.  
I
could easily donate enough time to fix client side stuffbut last 
time I
tried (which I confess was almost a year ago), I couldn't make head 
nor
tails of how to put my knowledge of GWT to use. The shear massive 
amount of

code and how it interrelates was just overwhelming.
Thus all I have ever contributed was a passage on the history of Wave. 
I
have thus have no rights whatsoever to say were wave should go, or 
how.

Thats indeed upto the real contributors.
But I do think its (probably) somewhat usefull for people like me and 
Frank
R. to list our skills, and whats holding us back from contributing. 
For me

personally its not the bureaucracy of Apache, but rather the
but the fact that I have to work out how to compile and run my own 
server

even to make the most minor client change.
I have no specific objections to GitHub, I just dont think it will 
help

either.

Perhaps if other potential coders gave reasons for their lack of 
commits

it would help paint a picture of whats holding Wave back?


When i remember right (you could search the mailing archive for details 
if you like)
the reasons are: no time. And so far no company is backing the 
development of Wave.


As sad as it sounds, i tend to believe that code bases as huge as Wave 
are hardly

maintained only in prime time.

I understood that your personal problem was not to know where to start.
This guidance of course needs to come from the current maintainers. Its 
part of the apache
way to pick you up from a certain place and help you to grow into the 
community.


Cheers



~~~
Thomas  Bertines online review show:
http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


On 29 November 2013 14:07, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com 
wrote:



On 29 Nov 2013, at 13:50, Raphael Bircher wrote:

Hi Upayavira


Am 29.11.13 13:24, schrieb Upayavira:


The way open source communities such as this one work, the road map
needs to be defined by the people doing the work. It would be easy 
for
some of us to come up with a cool roadmap, but if coders aren't 
behind

it, it will be pointless effort.

That's true. I have just the feeling, that wave is a bit loost in 
space.
I don't talk about a long time roadmap. I talk about a short 
roadmap, from

release to release.



We have had a roadmap. It was simple: push out the next release.
Even for release checking and voting were hardly people available.
Ali Lown put a lot of time into the RC and got only less responses. 
To

less.

At the same time a lot of people showed up here and discussed 
potential

options for future directions of Wave.
When the dust settled the discussions had some kind of a consens but
(almost?) nobody put in actual code.

More than people discussing the future Wave needs people creating the
future - writing code.

Everybody on this list can easily check out the codebase and send 
back

patches. No need to discuss if somebody
has experience in GWT or not. IF you want to contribute, just DO it.
Checkout code, send patches. Its open to all.



If folks are interested in coding Wave, whether at Apache or 
elsewhere,
I'd encourage them to jump in and start suggesting where they think 
it

should go.

I just want to say, that in my point of view, the Apache Structure 
is not
the problem. I beleve a move to GitHub will not help for the long 
term. For

my point of view, it's the wrong way to adress the problem.



The incubator has a specific goal: create a community around a 
product

which is able to self govern.
Wave has not managed to build up a community since 2010-12-04. So far
there are many interested and curious people but nobody
actually works on the project.

With discussing the end of incubation i don't want to solve the 
actual

problem of this project. Actually I can't.
The people around this project need to that.

The incubator is a complicated environment with many rules. With 
going out
of the incubator this project would have to follow less rules. 
Patches can
be accepted more easily (github is easier than the ASF in that 
perspective).


I have no problem with leaving Wave a little longer here. But so far 
I

don't see any sense in doing so as nothing happens here.
And I say this even when I like Wave and with deep respect to the few
people who actually contributed in the past.

Cheers
Christian



Greetings Raphael




---
http://www.grobmeier.de
@grobmeier
GPG: 0xA5CC90DB




---
http://www.grobmeier.de
@grobmeier
GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-29 Thread Jon wright


 Perhaps if other potential coders gave reasons for their lack of commits
 it would help paint a picture of whats holding Wave back?


For me personally its the learning curve that comes with a massive
codebase and little documentation or even overview of how the classes
etc relate to each other. Comprehending that takes time in itself and
you need to do that before you can actually start contributing in a
meaningful way.

If I were to tackle wave in the same way I've tackled other projects
with massive code bases. I would start with a skeleton, basic
functionality. Then build it up by taking components that have already
been developed and documenting it as I go connecting it all together.

I know you cant do that with Wave but better documentation on how to
get the client/server up and running in a consistent way locally, will
help people, whoever setup the demo servers on the incubator page
could probably do that. You can expand on it form there.

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-29 Thread Ali Lown

@Christian:
You have summarised it well for me, in the despite repeated attempts
to get a community, Wave has been unable to sustain active development
here.


@Thomas, Jon
Am I the only person who is actively still setting up wave servers?
(Correct me if I am wrong on this).
Setting up RC4 to run, is now about as simple as possible to make Wave
function - given the complexity assosciated with what it can do, and
the variation in set-ups people seem to want.

So, it appears that I could do with running some 'tutoring' sessions
with people to cover
a) Running a server
b) Advanced server admin: a) SSL, b) Federation
c) Codebase overview - with a focus on the client side for all the GWT
coders around.

Ali

(Hop on to wave-dev.alown.co.uk and we can discuss this... :p)

On 29 November 2013 13:41, Jon wright jon.wright1...@gmail.com wrote:

 Perhaps if other potential coders gave reasons for their lack of commits
 it would help paint a picture of whats holding Wave back?


 For me personally its the learning curve that comes with a massive
 codebase and little documentation or even overview of how the classes
 etc relate to each other. Comprehending that takes time in itself and
 you need to do that before you can actually start contributing in a
 meaningful way.

 If I were to tackle wave in the same way I've tackled other projects
 with massive code bases. I would start with a skeleton, basic
 functionality. Then build it up by taking components that have already
 been developed and documenting it as I go connecting it all together.

 I know you cant do that with Wave but better documentation on how to
 get the client/server up and running in a consistent way locally, will
 help people, whoever setup the demo servers on the incubator page
 could probably do that. You can expand on it form there.

Re: Incubation status

Ali , YES do all of that , and make a post about it on your wave server :)
im tensy on there btw, actually ive been running a wave server for a while
and the one thing im still hung up on is ssl and federation..

i think the biggest thing Everyone on this list could do is to get a wave
server up and running on whatever computer they have.. and just run it and
play with it , and have them all federated / talking to eachother.

Lets all use wave, i know im sounding like a broken record here but its
amazing how few people actually go ahead and setup a wave server even ?


On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 3:05 PM, Ali Lown a...@lown.me.uk wrote:

 @Christian:
 You have summarised it well for me, in the despite repeated attempts
 to get a community, Wave has been unable to sustain active development
 here.


 @Thomas, Jon
 Am I the only person who is actively still setting up wave servers?
 (Correct me if I am wrong on this).
 Setting up RC4 to run, is now about as simple as possible to make Wave
 function - given the complexity assosciated with what it can do, and
 the variation in set-ups people seem to want.

 So, it appears that I could do with running some 'tutoring' sessions
 with people to cover
 a) Running a server
 b) Advanced server admin: a) SSL, b) Federation
 c) Codebase overview - with a focus on the client side for all the GWT
 coders around.

 Ali

 (Hop on to wave-dev.alown.co.uk and we can discuss this... :p)

 On 29 November 2013 13:41, Jon wright jon.wright1...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Perhaps if other potential coders gave reasons for their lack of
 commits
  it would help paint a picture of whats holding Wave back?
 
 
  For me personally its the learning curve that comes with a massive
  codebase and little documentation or even overview of how the classes
  etc relate to each other. Comprehending that takes time in itself and
  you need to do that before you can actually start contributing in a
  meaningful way.
 
  If I were to tackle wave in the same way I've tackled other projects
  with massive code bases. I would start with a skeleton, basic
  functionality. Then build it up by taking components that have already
  been developed and documenting it as I go connecting it all together.
 
  I know you cant do that with Wave but better documentation on how to
  get the client/server up and running in a consistent way locally, will
  help people, whoever setup the demo servers on the incubator page
  could probably do that. You can expand on it form there.

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-29 Thread Jon wright

 So, it appears that I could do with running some 'tutoring' sessions
 with people to cover
 a) Running a server
 b) Advanced server admin: a) SSL, b) Federation
 c) Codebase overview - with a focus on the client side for all the GWT
 coders around.

 Ali

That would be really useful and welcome. And even though its not
writing code its probably more of a contribution to the project
because thats what it needs the most.

 (Hop on to wave-dev.alown.co.uk and we can discuss this... :p)

I cant right now because I'm in the office working. But I would say it
would be worth while picking a time in the future where a number of us
can go through the steps involved together. Then as other people get
familiar with how things work, they can do the same.

Good suggestion..!

Re: Incubation status

Or, it might be worthwhile to do a 'hangout on air' video or a screen
cast of installation / config / admin use.


On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Jon wright jon.wright1...@gmail.com wrote:
 So, it appears that I could do with running some 'tutoring' sessions
 with people to cover
 a) Running a server
 b) Advanced server admin: a) SSL, b) Federation
 c) Codebase overview - with a focus on the client side for all the GWT
 coders around.

 Ali

 That would be really useful and welcome. And even though its not
 writing code its probably more of a contribution to the project
 because thats what it needs the most.

 (Hop on to wave-dev.alown.co.uk and we can discuss this... :p)

 I cant right now because I'm in the office working. But I would say it
 would be worth while picking a time in the future where a number of us
 can go through the steps involved together. Then as other people get
 familiar with how things work, they can do the same.

 Good suggestion..!



-- 
Kelly Brumbelow

Re: Incubation status

+1 to all that.
I think some basic guides online to getting it working enough to get
started coding would help a lot. (and client coding specifically for us
GWT-ers)

After the basics are written, and I myself use them to get myself started,
I could tidy them up/flesh them out a bit.
I wouldn't want anyone with the knowledge already to have to waste too much
time writing nice looking guides.
I daresay theres a lot more people out there able to help with the
non-coding (or light-coding) tasks like documentation then there is
with the server-side knowledge.


~~~
Thomas  Bertines online review show:
http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


On 29 November 2013 15:14, Jon wright jon.wright1...@gmail.com wrote:

  So, it appears that I could do with running some 'tutoring' sessions
  with people to cover
  a) Running a server
  b) Advanced server admin: a) SSL, b) Federation
  c) Codebase overview - with a focus on the client side for all the GWT
  coders around.
 
  Ali

 That would be really useful and welcome. And even though its not
 writing code its probably more of a contribution to the project
 because thats what it needs the most.

  (Hop on to wave-dev.alown.co.uk and we can discuss this... :p)

 I cant right now because I'm in the office working. But I would say it
 would be worth while picking a time in the future where a number of us
 can go through the steps involved together. Then as other people get
 familiar with how things work, they can do the same.

 Good suggestion..!

Re: Incubation status

If its done that way it really would need to be recorded too.
I am not too keen on video tutorials myself, as it brings in time-zone
issues, and I prefer to go at my own pace.
But, really, that's just my personal preference. For this sort of thing its
always whatever the tutors preference is.


~~~
Thomas  Bertines online review show:
http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


On 29 November 2013 15:23, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.com wrote:

 Or, it might be worthwhile to do a 'hangout on air' video or a screen
 cast of installation / config / admin use.


 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 9:14 AM, Jon wright jon.wright1...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  So, it appears that I could do with running some 'tutoring' sessions
  with people to cover
  a) Running a server
  b) Advanced server admin: a) SSL, b) Federation
  c) Codebase overview - with a focus on the client side for all the GWT
  coders around.
 
  Ali
 
  That would be really useful and welcome. And even though its not
  writing code its probably more of a contribution to the project
  because thats what it needs the most.
 
  (Hop on to wave-dev.alown.co.uk and we can discuss this... :p)
 
  I cant right now because I'm in the office working. But I would say it
  would be worth while picking a time in the future where a number of us
  can go through the steps involved together. Then as other people get
  familiar with how things work, they can do the same.
 
  Good suggestion..!



 --
 Kelly Brumbelow

Re: Incubation status

Thomas,
 Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts,
they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought,
also defaulted to being recorded.

I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by
students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand
holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed
known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke, command
and mouse movement

Re: Incubation status

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box

https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home

also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net

also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a discussion
on his wave server , why not try those things first?  and if there is a
problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave add the
participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that server
should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer your
problem.

-fleeky


On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.comwrote:

 Thomas,
  Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts,
 they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought,
 also defaulted to being recorded.

 I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by
 students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand
 holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed
 known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke, command
 and mouse movement

Re: Incubation status

Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside
exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use
wave might be self defeating.

On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:
 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box

 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home

 also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net

 also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a discussion
 on his wave server , why not try those things first?  and if there is a
 problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave add the
 participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that server
 should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer your
 problem.

 -fleeky


 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
 rkbrumbe...@gmail.comwrote:

 Thomas,
  Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts,
 they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought,
 also defaulted to being recorded.

 I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by
 students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand
 holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed
 known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke, command
 and mouse movement




-- 
Kelly Brumbelow

Re: Incubation status

robert if using wave to learn wave is self defeating , i think wave the
purpose of wave has been lost.

wave is a communications platform, if it cant communicate how to use itself
doesnt that seem a bit silly?

an ideal situation would be publicly viewable waves that are potentially
read only , or parts are (wave could use permissions).

but a more realistic way that i use on my own server is to have an
anonymous account. this way you tell people to login via that and they can
interact with the waves you have shared with that account.

i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of
using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof amazing.

fleeky


On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.comwrote:

 Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside
 exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use
 wave might be self defeating.

 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:
  https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box
 
  https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home
 
  also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net
 
  also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a discussion
  on his wave server , why not try those things first?  and if there is a
  problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave add the
  participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that server
  should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer your
  problem.
 
  -fleeky
 
 
  On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  Thomas,
   Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts,
  they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought,
  also defaulted to being recorded.
 
  I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by
  students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand
  holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed
  known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke, command
  and mouse movement
 



 --
 Kelly Brumbelow

Re: Incubation status

I would guess people dought the maturity of wave rather then the usefulness.
Is it stable with large numbers of blips? large numbers of commentators?

Not saying it isn't - but the principle of wave I think we are all for. I
think the only questions are if it can be used to an acceptable standard
right now, or if its current glitches/bugs/unsuitability's will just add
another barrier to being able to contribute.

For myself I wasnt aware of those other tutorials. I'll try to put in some
time later today and see at what point I get stuck.

~~~
Thomas  Bertines online review show:
http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


On 29 November 2013 16:40, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:

 robert if using wave to learn wave is self defeating , i think wave the
 purpose of wave has been lost.

 wave is a communications platform, if it cant communicate how to use itself
 doesnt that seem a bit silly?

 an ideal situation would be publicly viewable waves that are potentially
 read only , or parts are (wave could use permissions).

 but a more realistic way that i use on my own server is to have an
 anonymous account. this way you tell people to login via that and they can
 interact with the waves you have shared with that account.

 i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of
 using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof amazing.

 fleeky


 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside
  exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use
  wave might be self defeating.
 
  On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  
 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box
  
   https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home
  
   also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net
  
   also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a
 discussion
   on his wave server , why not try those things first?  and if there is a
   problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave add
 the
   participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that
 server
   should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer
 your
   problem.
  
   -fleeky
  
  
   On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
 rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
   Thomas,
Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts,
   they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought,
   also defaulted to being recorded.
  
   I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by
   students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand
   holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed
   known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke, command
   and mouse movement
  
 
 
 
  --
  Kelly Brumbelow

Re: Incubation status

Fleeky,

i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of
using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
amazing. [sic]

Probably because you have flawed presuppositions.

I assume people who have never seen Wave have never seen Wave, not
that they know how to use it. When teaching someone to drive a car, I
have them observe, read, study, and after they have done the
prerequisites I would put them in a training car.

People want to see what Wave can do before they jump in and use it frequently.

I am glad you have done all these things on your own, but tell me how
is having done them yourself drawing in new users and developers along
with generating interest? It may be happening, I don't see it.

I am not talking about dogfooding, I am talking about intro and basic
training so people can get up to speed.

On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:40 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:
 robert if using wave to learn wave is self defeating , i think wave the
 purpose of wave has been lost.

 wave is a communications platform, if it cant communicate how to use itself
 doesnt that seem a bit silly?

 an ideal situation would be publicly viewable waves that are potentially
 read only , or parts are (wave could use permissions).

 but a more realistic way that i use on my own server is to have an
 anonymous account. this way you tell people to login via that and they can
 interact with the waves you have shared with that account.

 i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of
 using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof amazing.

 fleeky


 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
 rkbrumbe...@gmail.comwrote:

 Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside
 exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use
 wave might be self defeating.

 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:
  https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box
 
  https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home
 
  also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net
 
  also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a discussion
  on his wave server , why not try those things first?  and if there is a
  problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave add the
  participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that server
  should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer your
  problem.
 
  -fleeky
 
 
  On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  Thomas,
   Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts,
  they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought,
  also defaulted to being recorded.
 
  I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by
  students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand
  holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed
  known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke, command
  and mouse movement
 



 --
 Kelly Brumbelow




-- 
Kelly Brumbelow

Re: Incubation status

ok , what i would like to know.

who among you on this mailing list is actually using wave in some capacity
? and for what ? do you run your own wave server ? if not why ?

personally i run my own wave server, and use it mainly as a google doc
replacement.

robert, first off which people are you talking about ? people on this list
? or the general populace? if people on this list are too scared to dip
there toes into something that may have a few bugs then we are certainly
doomed.

robert, you are right but you are also wrong, your right in that the way
your talking about is nice and orderly and logical. the problem is ,
expecting all of that will never happen unless you personally do so. what i
am proposing is for people to get there hands dirty in any way possible.
can you code? great wave needs coders more then anything. but if you cant
code, you can atleast use wave and get an idea for what works and what
doesnt, what the bugs are, wave needs people to use it just as much as it
needs people to make code for it at this point.

get your hands dirty, thats all im asking

also to answer your question : I DO draw in new users, maybe not at the
level or speed any of you deem worthy, but i use wave to share documents
with people. as i said i make a dummy account and then  have my friends use
it to view a document id like them to look at. is it ideal? not at all, but
then again wave is not at a point in its software development for there to
be anything like an ideal.

the point is to use , and to figure out how it can be usefull in its
current state, rather then bickering about what it needs to be everyone's
dream software.



On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:53 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.comwrote:

 Fleeky,

 i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of
 using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
 amazing. [sic]

 Probably because you have flawed presuppositions.

 I assume people who have never seen Wave have never seen Wave, not
 that they know how to use it. When teaching someone to drive a car, I
 have them observe, read, study, and after they have done the
 prerequisites I would put them in a training car.

 People want to see what Wave can do before they jump in and use it
 frequently.

 I am glad you have done all these things on your own, but tell me how
 is having done them yourself drawing in new users and developers along
 with generating interest? It may be happening, I don't see it.

 I am not talking about dogfooding, I am talking about intro and basic
 training so people can get up to speed.

 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:40 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:
  robert if using wave to learn wave is self defeating , i think wave the
  purpose of wave has been lost.
 
  wave is a communications platform, if it cant communicate how to use
 itself
  doesnt that seem a bit silly?
 
  an ideal situation would be publicly viewable waves that are potentially
  read only , or parts are (wave could use permissions).
 
  but a more realistic way that i use on my own server is to have an
  anonymous account. this way you tell people to login via that and they
 can
  interact with the waves you have shared with that account.
 
  i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of
  using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
 amazing.
 
  fleeky
 
 
  On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside
  exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use
  wave might be self defeating.
 
  On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  
 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box
  
   https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home
  
   also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net
  
   also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a
 discussion
   on his wave server , why not try those things first?  and if there is
 a
   problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave add
 the
   participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that
 server
   should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer
 your
   problem.
  
   -fleeky
  
  
   On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
 rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
   Thomas,
Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts,
   they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought,
   also defaulted to being recorded.
  
   I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by
   students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand
   holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed
   known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke,
 command
   and mouse movement
  
 
 
 
  --
  Kelly Brumbelow
 



 --
 Kelly Brumbelow

Re: Incubation status

Fleeky, Plonk

On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:
 ok , what i would like to know.

 who among you on this mailing list is actually using wave in some capacity
 ? and for what ? do you run your own wave server ? if not why ?

 personally i run my own wave server, and use it mainly as a google doc
 replacement.

 robert, first off which people are you talking about ? people on this list
 ? or the general populace? if people on this list are too scared to dip
 there toes into something that may have a few bugs then we are certainly
 doomed.

 robert, you are right but you are also wrong, your right in that the way
 your talking about is nice and orderly and logical. the problem is ,
 expecting all of that will never happen unless you personally do so. what i
 am proposing is for people to get there hands dirty in any way possible.
 can you code? great wave needs coders more then anything. but if you cant
 code, you can atleast use wave and get an idea for what works and what
 doesnt, what the bugs are, wave needs people to use it just as much as it
 needs people to make code for it at this point.

 get your hands dirty, thats all im asking

 also to answer your question : I DO draw in new users, maybe not at the
 level or speed any of you deem worthy, but i use wave to share documents
 with people. as i said i make a dummy account and then  have my friends use
 it to view a document id like them to look at. is it ideal? not at all, but
 then again wave is not at a point in its software development for there to
 be anything like an ideal.

 the point is to use , and to figure out how it can be usefull in its
 current state, rather then bickering about what it needs to be everyone's
 dream software.



 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:53 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
 rkbrumbe...@gmail.comwrote:

 Fleeky,

 i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of
 using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
 amazing. [sic]

 Probably because you have flawed presuppositions.

 I assume people who have never seen Wave have never seen Wave, not
 that they know how to use it. When teaching someone to drive a car, I
 have them observe, read, study, and after they have done the
 prerequisites I would put them in a training car.

 People want to see what Wave can do before they jump in and use it
 frequently.

 I am glad you have done all these things on your own, but tell me how
 is having done them yourself drawing in new users and developers along
 with generating interest? It may be happening, I don't see it.

 I am not talking about dogfooding, I am talking about intro and basic
 training so people can get up to speed.

 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:40 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:
  robert if using wave to learn wave is self defeating , i think wave the
  purpose of wave has been lost.
 
  wave is a communications platform, if it cant communicate how to use
 itself
  doesnt that seem a bit silly?
 
  an ideal situation would be publicly viewable waves that are potentially
  read only , or parts are (wave could use permissions).
 
  but a more realistic way that i use on my own server is to have an
  anonymous account. this way you tell people to login via that and they
 can
  interact with the waves you have shared with that account.
 
  i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of
  using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
 amazing.
 
  fleeky
 
 
  On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside
  exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use
  wave might be self defeating.
 
  On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  
 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box
  
   https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home
  
   also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net
  
   also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a
 discussion
   on his wave server , why not try those things first?  and if there is
 a
   problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave add
 the
   participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that
 server
   should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer
 your
   problem.
  
   -fleeky
  
  
   On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
 rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  
   Thomas,
Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts,
   they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought,
   also defaulted to being recorded.
  
   I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by
   students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand
   holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed
   known by students or the teacher. Video

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-29 Thread jon . wright1986

People, I love you all :)

Chill out.

Och aye!

Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone

-Original Message-
From: Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 29 Nov 2013 21:41:17 
To: wave-dev@incubator.apache.org
Reply-To: wave-dev@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: Incubation status

On 29 Nov 2013, at 16:40, Fleeky Flanco wrote:

 i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness 
 of
 using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof 
 amazing.

If you don't understand why we operate on a mailing list then you 
probably have
not understood that the ASF tries to develop in an open way. All 
discussions must held
public and must be archived for a long time. The only solution so far is 
mailing lists.
Wave is simply not that far to provide that at the moment.

Of course there is an opportunity to bring Wave to the ASF. But there 
are a lot of requirements
to meet. If you want to develop here, you need to fulfill these 
requirements.

We have discussed that several times. Every of the committers understood 
these requirements
and were working against them. However Wave is not there yet.

This doesn't answer the question which was initially asked: is the ASF 
the right place?
Or more precise: can we as a project ever succeed the incubator and 
become an ASF project?

This has nothing to do with the great technology behind Wave nor the 
willingness of people.
It is: is there enough manpower to live the ASF way or not.

Christian


 fleeky


 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
 rkbrumbe...@gmail.comwrote:

 Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside
 exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use
 wave might be self defeating.

 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box

 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home

 also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net

 also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a 
 discussion
 on his wave server , why not try those things first?  and if there 
 is a
 problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave 
 add the
 participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that 
 server
 should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer 
 your
 problem.

 -fleeky


 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
 rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Thomas,
   Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts,
 they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought,
 also defaulted to being recorded.

 I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by
 students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand
 holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed
 known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke, 
 command
 and mouse movement




 --
 Kelly Brumbelow



---
http://www.grobmeier.de
@grobmeier
GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-29 Thread Joseph Gentle

I totally agree.

- We should move to github
- I agree that there isn't enough work devoted to WIAB to keep it
alive in its current state
- We should move discussion to WIAB, once its ready for that

I'd love to throw more time and energy into WIAB - I really would, but
the reality is that I'm working a full time job and its eating all my
ability to get things done in my free time. I've been making slow
progress iterating on some better algorithms (and I had a breakthrough
in figuring out a syncronization protocol recently with Dominic Tarr),
but working about 1 day / month isn't enough.

-J

On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:02 AM, Christian Grobmeier
grobme...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi folks,

 it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone.

 I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place.
 Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and is
 - in a way - active.

 I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen working
 on the codebase recently was Ali.
 He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive the
 necessary votes from its own team.

 My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only
 little hope.

 Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again):

 Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now?

 If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal.

 Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the
 incubation until the community around Wave has grown.

 Thoughts?

 Christian


 ---
 http://www.grobmeier.de
 @grobmeier
 GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

christian, from my observations of the project i would have to answer no,
its not working out ?

pardon my passion on this subject (@mailing list) but ive kept quiet for
too long. id rather get an argument started on this rather then let wave
die the slow death that it is currently facing. passion is what wave needs
right now, not patience.

i dont think moving wave to github or getting everyone to actually use wave
will magically make everything better, but i think that is a step in the
right direction that Should have been taken a long time ago.

theres no reason that moving discussion to a wave server reduces the open
nature of the discussion, as stated previously, its trivial to make an
anonymous account to grant anyone access to this discussion if it was on a
wave server. also anyone can register on a wave server and participate in
the discussion if the wave has been setup properly, theres even a patch
somewhere for rendering wave files as html files which would make it
searchable by google and everyone esle.  federation should make propogating
this data to multiple servers possible, using wave as the main discussion
area maintains the openness , searchability, and also longevity of the
discussion.

On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote:

 On 29 Nov 2013, at 16:40, Fleeky Flanco wrote:

  i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of
 using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
 amazing.


 If you don't understand why we operate on a mailing list then you probably
 have
 not understood that the ASF tries to develop in an open way. All
 discussions must held
 public and must be archived for a long time. The only solution so far is
 mailing lists.
 Wave is simply not that far to provide that at the moment.

 Of course there is an opportunity to bring Wave to the ASF. But there are
 a lot of requirements
 to meet. If you want to develop here, you need to fulfill these
 requirements.

 We have discussed that several times. Every of the committers understood
 these requirements
 and were working against them. However Wave is not there yet.

 This doesn't answer the question which was initially asked: is the ASF the
 right place?
 Or more precise: can we as a project ever succeed the incubator and become
 an ASF project?

 This has nothing to do with the great technology behind Wave nor the
 willingness of people.
 It is: is there enough manpower to live the ASF way or not.

 Christian



 fleeky


 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside
 exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use
 wave might be self defeating.

 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box

 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home

 also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net

 also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a
 discussion
 on his wave server , why not try those things first?  and if there is a
 problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave add
 the
 participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that
 server
 should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer
 your
 problem.

 -fleeky


 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
 rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Thomas,
   Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts,
 they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought,
 also defaulted to being recorded.

 I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by
 students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand
 holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed
 known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke, command
 and mouse movement




 --
 Kelly Brumbelow



 ---
 http://www.grobmeier.de
 @grobmeier
 GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

So are you confirming then that Wave as it stands can (stably) take very
long discussion threads with lots of comments?

I wasn't even aware the storage format of the current Wave builds was
final.
Maybe more has progressed in the last year then I was aware of.


~~~
Thomas  Bertines online review show:
http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


On 29 November 2013 23:44, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:

 christian, from my observations of the project i would have to answer no,
 its not working out ?

 pardon my passion on this subject (@mailing list) but ive kept quiet for
 too long. id rather get an argument started on this rather then let wave
 die the slow death that it is currently facing. passion is what wave needs
 right now, not patience.

 i dont think moving wave to github or getting everyone to actually use wave
 will magically make everything better, but i think that is a step in the
 right direction that Should have been taken a long time ago.

 theres no reason that moving discussion to a wave server reduces the open
 nature of the discussion, as stated previously, its trivial to make an
 anonymous account to grant anyone access to this discussion if it was on a
 wave server. also anyone can register on a wave server and participate in
 the discussion if the wave has been setup properly, theres even a patch
 somewhere for rendering wave files as html files which would make it
 searchable by google and everyone esle.  federation should make propogating
 this data to multiple servers possible, using wave as the main discussion
 area maintains the openness , searchability, and also longevity of the
 discussion.

 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  On 29 Nov 2013, at 16:40, Fleeky Flanco wrote:
 
   i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness of
  using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
  amazing.
 
 
  If you don't understand why we operate on a mailing list then you
 probably
  have
  not understood that the ASF tries to develop in an open way. All
  discussions must held
  public and must be archived for a long time. The only solution so far is
  mailing lists.
  Wave is simply not that far to provide that at the moment.
 
  Of course there is an opportunity to bring Wave to the ASF. But there are
  a lot of requirements
  to meet. If you want to develop here, you need to fulfill these
  requirements.
 
  We have discussed that several times. Every of the committers understood
  these requirements
  and were working against them. However Wave is not there yet.
 
  This doesn't answer the question which was initially asked: is the ASF
 the
  right place?
  Or more precise: can we as a project ever succeed the incubator and
 become
  an ASF project?
 
  This has nothing to do with the great technology behind Wave nor the
  willingness of people.
  It is: is there enough manpower to live the ASF way or not.
 
  Christian
 
 
 
  fleeky
 
 
  On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
 rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside
  exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use
  wave might be self defeating.
 
  On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
 
 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box
 
  https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home
 
  also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net
 
  also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a
  discussion
  on his wave server , why not try those things first?  and if there is
 a
  problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave add
  the
  participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that
  server
  should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer
  your
  problem.
 
  -fleeky
 
 
  On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
  rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   Thomas,
Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts,
  they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought,
  also defaulted to being recorded.
 
  I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by
  students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand
  holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed
  known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke,
 command
  and mouse movement
 
 
 
 
  --
  Kelly Brumbelow
 
 
 
  ---
  http://www.grobmeier.de
  @grobmeier
  GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

thomas,

i dont think there has even been enough testing of wave to prove this one
way or the other but the main point is that if we are all using wave for
something that matters, it will piss someone off enough to actually start
to fix things.



On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote:

 So are you confirming then that Wave as it stands can (stably) take very
 long discussion threads with lots of comments?

 I wasn't even aware the storage format of the current Wave builds was
 final.
 Maybe more has progressed in the last year then I was aware of.


 ~~~
 Thomas  Bertines online review show:
 http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
 Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


 On 29 November 2013 23:44, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:

  christian, from my observations of the project i would have to answer no,
  its not working out ?
 
  pardon my passion on this subject (@mailing list) but ive kept quiet for
  too long. id rather get an argument started on this rather then let wave
  die the slow death that it is currently facing. passion is what wave
 needs
  right now, not patience.
 
  i dont think moving wave to github or getting everyone to actually use
 wave
  will magically make everything better, but i think that is a step in the
  right direction that Should have been taken a long time ago.
 
  theres no reason that moving discussion to a wave server reduces the open
  nature of the discussion, as stated previously, its trivial to make an
  anonymous account to grant anyone access to this discussion if it was on
 a
  wave server. also anyone can register on a wave server and participate in
  the discussion if the wave has been setup properly, theres even a patch
  somewhere for rendering wave files as html files which would make it
  searchable by google and everyone esle.  federation should make
 propogating
  this data to multiple servers possible, using wave as the main discussion
  area maintains the openness , searchability, and also longevity of the
  discussion.
 
  On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Christian Grobmeier 
 grobme...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   On 29 Nov 2013, at 16:40, Fleeky Flanco wrote:
  
i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness
 of
   using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
   amazing.
  
  
   If you don't understand why we operate on a mailing list then you
  probably
   have
   not understood that the ASF tries to develop in an open way. All
   discussions must held
   public and must be archived for a long time. The only solution so far
 is
   mailing lists.
   Wave is simply not that far to provide that at the moment.
  
   Of course there is an opportunity to bring Wave to the ASF. But there
 are
   a lot of requirements
   to meet. If you want to develop here, you need to fulfill these
   requirements.
  
   We have discussed that several times. Every of the committers
 understood
   these requirements
   and were working against them. However Wave is not there yet.
  
   This doesn't answer the question which was initially asked: is the ASF
  the
   right place?
   Or more precise: can we as a project ever succeed the incubator and
  become
   an ASF project?
  
   This has nothing to do with the great technology behind Wave nor the
   willingness of people.
   It is: is there enough manpower to live the ASF way or not.
  
   Christian
  
  
  
   fleeky
  
  
   On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
  rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
   wrote:
  
Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside
   exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to use
   wave might be self defeating.
  
   On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
   wrote:
  
  
  https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box
  
   https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home
  
   also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net
  
   also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a
   discussion
   on his wave server , why not try those things first?  and if there
 is
  a
   problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave
 add
   the
   participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that
   server
   should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to answer
   your
   problem.
  
   -fleeky
  
  
   On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
   rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
   wrote:
  
Thomas,
 Hangouts on air are the recorded versions of Google Hangouts,
   they are streamed and recorded via Youtube. Screencasts, I thought,
   also defaulted to being recorded.
  
   I know during my years of teaching, video was often preferred by
   students simply because even in step by step instruction, aka hand
   holding, there would be something glossed over, ignored or assumed
   known by students or the teacher. Video shows every keystroke,

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-29 Thread Zachary Yaro

FWIW, I agree with Fleeky.  Most of the extensions I have developed for
Rizzoma have been because a bug or missing feature annoys me regularly.  If
people used WIAB regularly, I think they would start to notice glaring and
subtle usability problems and be more inclined to fix them.

—Zachary Yaro


On 29 November 2013 17:55, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:

 thomas,

 i dont think there has even been enough testing of wave to prove this one
 way or the other but the main point is that if we are all using wave for
 something that matters, it will piss someone off enough to actually start
 to fix things.



 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  So are you confirming then that Wave as it stands can (stably) take very
  long discussion threads with lots of comments?
 
  I wasn't even aware the storage format of the current Wave builds was
  final.
  Maybe more has progressed in the last year then I was aware of.
 
 
  ~~~
  Thomas  Bertines online review show:
  http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
  Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
 
 
  On 29 November 2013 23:44, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   christian, from my observations of the project i would have to answer
 no,
   its not working out ?
  
   pardon my passion on this subject (@mailing list) but ive kept quiet
 for
   too long. id rather get an argument started on this rather then let
 wave
   die the slow death that it is currently facing. passion is what wave
  needs
   right now, not patience.
  
   i dont think moving wave to github or getting everyone to actually use
  wave
   will magically make everything better, but i think that is a step in
 the
   right direction that Should have been taken a long time ago.
  
   theres no reason that moving discussion to a wave server reduces the
 open
   nature of the discussion, as stated previously, its trivial to make an
   anonymous account to grant anyone access to this discussion if it was
 on
  a
   wave server. also anyone can register on a wave server and participate
 in
   the discussion if the wave has been setup properly, theres even a patch
   somewhere for rendering wave files as html files which would make it
   searchable by google and everyone esle.  federation should make
  propogating
   this data to multiple servers possible, using wave as the main
 discussion
   area maintains the openness , searchability, and also longevity of the
   discussion.
  
   On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Christian Grobmeier 
  grobme...@gmail.com
   wrote:
  
On 29 Nov 2013, at 16:40, Fleeky Flanco wrote:
   
 i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness
  of
using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
amazing.
   
   
If you don't understand why we operate on a mailing list then you
   probably
have
not understood that the ASF tries to develop in an open way. All
discussions must held
public and must be archived for a long time. The only solution so far
  is
mailing lists.
Wave is simply not that far to provide that at the moment.
   
Of course there is an opportunity to bring Wave to the ASF. But there
  are
a lot of requirements
to meet. If you want to develop here, you need to fulfill these
requirements.
   
We have discussed that several times. Every of the committers
  understood
these requirements
and were working against them. However Wave is not there yet.
   
This doesn't answer the question which was initially asked: is the
 ASF
   the
right place?
Or more precise: can we as a project ever succeed the incubator and
   become
an ASF project?
   
This has nothing to do with the great technology behind Wave nor the
willingness of people.
It is: is there enough manpower to live the ASF way or not.
   
Christian
   
   
   
fleeky
   
   
On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
   rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
wrote:
   
 Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside
exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to
 use
wave might be self defeating.
   
On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
wrote:
   
   
  
 https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box
   
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home
   
also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net
   
also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a
discussion
on his wave server , why not try those things first?  and if there
  is
   a
problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave
  add
the
participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that
server
should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to
 answer
your
problem.
   
-fleeky
   
   
On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert

Re: Incubation status

very simple workaround, have everyone reply to everything in one blip, but
to append there name to things they say. this way you keep blip count low.

the state of wave imo is that its a blank slate, you have to impose your
own organizational structure onto each wave, and how you do that dictates
how things work in that particular wave. that is the beauty and also the
problem of it.


On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:55 PM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:

 thomas,

 i dont think there has even been enough testing of wave to prove this one
 way or the other but the main point is that if we are all using wave for
 something that matters, it will piss someone off enough to actually start
 to fix things.



 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.comwrote:

 So are you confirming then that Wave as it stands can (stably) take very
 long discussion threads with lots of comments?

 I wasn't even aware the storage format of the current Wave builds was
 final.
 Maybe more has progressed in the last year then I was aware of.


 ~~~
 Thomas  Bertines online review show:
 http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
 Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


 On 29 November 2013 23:44, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:

  christian, from my observations of the project i would have to answer
 no,
  its not working out ?
 
  pardon my passion on this subject (@mailing list) but ive kept quiet for
  too long. id rather get an argument started on this rather then let wave
  die the slow death that it is currently facing. passion is what wave
 needs
  right now, not patience.
 
  i dont think moving wave to github or getting everyone to actually use
 wave
  will magically make everything better, but i think that is a step in the
  right direction that Should have been taken a long time ago.
 
  theres no reason that moving discussion to a wave server reduces the
 open
  nature of the discussion, as stated previously, its trivial to make an
  anonymous account to grant anyone access to this discussion if it was
 on a
  wave server. also anyone can register on a wave server and participate
 in
  the discussion if the wave has been setup properly, theres even a patch
  somewhere for rendering wave files as html files which would make it
  searchable by google and everyone esle.  federation should make
 propogating
  this data to multiple servers possible, using wave as the main
 discussion
  area maintains the openness , searchability, and also longevity of the
  discussion.
 
  On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Christian Grobmeier 
 grobme...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   On 29 Nov 2013, at 16:40, Fleeky Flanco wrote:
  
i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the usefullness
 of
   using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
   amazing.
  
  
   If you don't understand why we operate on a mailing list then you
  probably
   have
   not understood that the ASF tries to develop in an open way. All
   discussions must held
   public and must be archived for a long time. The only solution so far
 is
   mailing lists.
   Wave is simply not that far to provide that at the moment.
  
   Of course there is an opportunity to bring Wave to the ASF. But there
 are
   a lot of requirements
   to meet. If you want to develop here, you need to fulfill these
   requirements.
  
   We have discussed that several times. Every of the committers
 understood
   these requirements
   and were working against them. However Wave is not there yet.
  
   This doesn't answer the question which was initially asked: is the ASF
  the
   right place?
   Or more precise: can we as a project ever succeed the incubator and
  become
   an ASF project?
  
   This has nothing to do with the great technology behind Wave nor the
   willingness of people.
   It is: is there enough manpower to live the ASF way or not.
  
   Christian
  
  
  
   fleeky
  
  
   On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
  rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
   wrote:
  
Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside
   exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to
 use
   wave might be self defeating.
  
   On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 10:05 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
   wrote:
  
  
  https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Building+Wave+in+a+Box
  
   https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/WAVE/Home
  
   also there is  #wiab on irc.freenode.net
  
   also Ali just a few emails up mentioned that you could start a
   discussion
   on his wave server , why not try those things first?  and if there
 is
  a
   problem, go to Ali's wave server and simply start a problems wave
 add
   the
   participant @domain to the wave and everyone inclduing Ali on that
   server
   should be able to see your problem wave, and maybe attempt to
 answer
   your
   problem.
  
   -fleeky
  
  
   On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:01 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
   rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
   wrote:

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-29 Thread Evan Hughes

By moving to github will the community there be able to communicate as
easily as we do here.  I have no experience working on any long term gothic
projects but in asf we can easily arrange for hangout debates which would
need to be recorded for public view. Tbh I agree with deadlines and emails
like these need to be frequent for us to band together. So either way after
the review submission date we should start another email for prep to move
to github or we should discuss the New timeline of the project and what we
need to build this into a stable community.
On 30/11/2013 8:59 AM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:

 very simple workaround, have everyone reply to everything in one blip, but
 to append there name to things they say. this way you keep blip count low.

 the state of wave imo is that its a blank slate, you have to impose your
 own organizational structure onto each wave, and how you do that dictates
 how things work in that particular wave. that is the beauty and also the
 problem of it.


 On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:55 PM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:

  thomas,
 
  i dont think there has even been enough testing of wave to prove this one
  way or the other but the main point is that if we are all using wave for
  something that matters, it will piss someone off enough to actually start
  to fix things.
 
 
 
  On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  So are you confirming then that Wave as it stands can (stably) take very
  long discussion threads with lots of comments?
 
  I wasn't even aware the storage format of the current Wave builds was
  final.
  Maybe more has progressed in the last year then I was aware of.
 
 
  ~~~
  Thomas  Bertines online review show:
  http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
  Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
 
 
  On 29 November 2013 23:44, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   christian, from my observations of the project i would have to answer
  no,
   its not working out ?
  
   pardon my passion on this subject (@mailing list) but ive kept quiet
 for
   too long. id rather get an argument started on this rather then let
 wave
   die the slow death that it is currently facing. passion is what wave
  needs
   right now, not patience.
  
   i dont think moving wave to github or getting everyone to actually use
  wave
   will magically make everything better, but i think that is a step in
 the
   right direction that Should have been taken a long time ago.
  
   theres no reason that moving discussion to a wave server reduces the
  open
   nature of the discussion, as stated previously, its trivial to make an
   anonymous account to grant anyone access to this discussion if it was
  on a
   wave server. also anyone can register on a wave server and participate
  in
   the discussion if the wave has been setup properly, theres even a
 patch
   somewhere for rendering wave files as html files which would make it
   searchable by google and everyone esle.  federation should make
  propogating
   this data to multiple servers possible, using wave as the main
  discussion
   area maintains the openness , searchability, and also longevity of the
   discussion.
  
   On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 9:41 PM, Christian Grobmeier 
  grobme...@gmail.com
   wrote:
  
On 29 Nov 2013, at 16:40, Fleeky Flanco wrote:
   
 i really dont understand why i have to be explaining the
 usefullness
  of
using wave to communicate with the people on this list. its kindof
amazing.
   
   
If you don't understand why we operate on a mailing list then you
   probably
have
not understood that the ASF tries to develop in an open way. All
discussions must held
public and must be archived for a long time. The only solution so
 far
  is
mailing lists.
Wave is simply not that far to provide that at the moment.
   
Of course there is an opportunity to bring Wave to the ASF. But
 there
  are
a lot of requirements
to meet. If you want to develop here, you need to fulfill these
requirements.
   
We have discussed that several times. Every of the committers
  understood
these requirements
and were working against them. However Wave is not there yet.
   
This doesn't answer the question which was initially asked: is the
 ASF
   the
right place?
Or more precise: can we as a project ever succeed the incubator and
   become
an ASF project?
   
This has nothing to do with the great technology behind Wave nor the
willingness of people.
It is: is there enough manpower to live the ASF way or not.
   
Christian
   
   
   
fleeky
   
   
On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at 4:19 PM, Robert Brumbelow 
   rkbrumbe...@gmail.com
wrote:
   
 Fleeky, those are fine for us, they will do little for outside
exposure. I would suspect having to use wave in order to learn to
  use
wave might be self defeating.
   
On Fri, Nov 29, 2013 at

Incubation status

2013-11-28 Thread Christian Grobmeier


Hi folks,

it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone.

I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place.
Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and 
is - in a way - active.


I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen 
working on the codebase recently was Ali.
He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive 
the necessary votes from its own team.


My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only 
little hope.


Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again):

Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now?

If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that 
goal.


Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the 
incubation until the community around Wave has grown.


Thoughts?

Christian


---
http://www.grobmeier.de
@grobmeier
GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-28 Thread Evan Hughes

As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in grade 8 and
at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the system. I
followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just learning
the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking forward
to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted by
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's goals
and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo since
situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts which
are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive.

just a newbies opinion.

Evan Hughes


On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.comwrote:

 Hi folks,

 it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone.

 I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place.
 Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and
 is - in a way - active.

 I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen working
 on the codebase recently was Ali.
 He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive
 the necessary votes from its own team.

 My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only
 little hope.

 Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again):

 Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now?

 If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal.

 Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the
 incubation until the community around Wave has grown.

 Thoughts?

 Christian


 ---
 http://www.grobmeier.de
 @grobmeier
 GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-28 Thread Guido Barosio

+1 github, it will be a better context for both the project and community. 

Sent from my iPhone

 On 28-11-2013, at 9:09, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in grade 8 and
 at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the system. I
 followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just learning
 the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking forward
 to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted by
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's goals
 and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo since
 situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts which
 are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive.
 
 just a newbies opinion.
 
 Evan Hughes
 
 
 On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier 
 grobme...@gmail.comwrote:
 
 Hi folks,
 
 it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone.
 
 I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place.
 Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and
 is - in a way - active.
 
 I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen working
 on the codebase recently was Ali.
 He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive
 the necessary votes from its own team.
 
 My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only
 little hope.
 
 Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again):
 
 Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now?
 
 If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal.
 
 Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the
 incubation until the community around Wave has grown.
 
 Thoughts?
 
 Christian
 
 
 ---
 http://www.grobmeier.de
 @grobmeier
 GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

Hi Evan

You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave

Glad to know someone like you is still interested in wave :)

Frank

On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote:

 As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in grade 8 and
 at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the system. I
 followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just learning
 the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking forward
 to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted by
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's goals
 and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo since
 situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts which
 are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive.

 just a newbies opinion.

 Evan Hughes


 On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Hi folks,
 
  it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone.
 
  I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place.
  Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and
  is - in a way - active.
 
  I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen
 working
  on the codebase recently was Ali.
  He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive
  the necessary votes from its own team.
 
  My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only
  little hope.
 
  Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again):
 
  Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now?
 
  If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that
 goal.
 
  Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the
  incubation until the community around Wave has grown.
 
  Thoughts?
 
  Christian
 
 
  ---
  http://www.grobmeier.de
  @grobmeier
  GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-28 Thread Fleeky Flanco

i completely agree to move it away from incubation, i think we should move
it out of github make federation easier and then market it on places like
reddit.

my 2 cents as someone who has been happily using this for sometime but sad
at the lack of progress.

thanks for the devs who do work on it though, wave is awesome and already
usefull !

fleeky


On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Evan

 You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave

 Glad to know someone like you is still interested in wave :)

 Frank

 On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote:

 As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in grade 8
 and
 at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the system. I
 followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just learning
 the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking forward
 to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted by
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's goals
 and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo since
 situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts
 which
 are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive.

 just a newbies opinion.

 Evan Hughes


 On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier grobme...@gmail.com
 wrote:

  Hi folks,
 
  it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone.
 
  I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right place.
  Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases and
  is - in a way - active.
 
  I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen
 working
  on the codebase recently was Ali.
  He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive
  the necessary votes from its own team.
 
  My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only
  little hope.
 
  Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again):
 
  Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now?
 
  If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that
 goal.
 
  Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the
  incubation until the community around Wave has grown.
 
  Thoughts?
 
  Christian
 
 
  ---
  http://www.grobmeier.de
  @grobmeier
  GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-28 Thread Fleeky Flanco

also if we move it to github, lets finally have discussion for development
happen on a public wave ;)


On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:

 i completely agree to move it away from incubation, i think we should move
 it out of github make federation easier and then market it on places like
 reddit.

 my 2 cents as someone who has been happily using this for sometime but sad
 at the lack of progress.

 thanks for the devs who do work on it though, wave is awesome and already
 usefull !

 fleeky


 On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Evan

 You already have it - wave on github. Here,
 https://github.com/apache/wave

 Glad to know someone like you is still interested in wave :)

 Frank

 On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote:

 As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in grade 8
 and
 at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the system. I
 followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just
 learning
 the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking
 forward
 to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted by
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's
 goals
 and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo since
 situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts
 which
 are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive.

 just a newbies opinion.

 Evan Hughes


 On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier 
 grobme...@gmail.comwrote:

  Hi folks,
 
  it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone.
 
  I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right
 place.
  Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases
 and
  is - in a way - active.
 
  I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen
 working
  on the codebase recently was Ali.
  He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to receive
  the necessary votes from its own team.
 
  My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have only
  little hope.
 
  Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again):
 
  Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now?
 
  If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that
 goal.
 
  Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the
  incubation until the community around Wave has grown.
 
  Thoughts?
 
  Christian
 
 
  ---
  http://www.grobmeier.de
  @grobmeier
  GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-28 Thread Thomas Wrobel

Speaking as someone unable to contribute code to the client as its too
heavily tide into the server (which I cant make heads not tails of), how
will any move effect things? how will it help? wont it just be rearranging
things again that have little, if anything, to do with getting anything
actually done?

I am still massively enthusiastic about WFP as a communication method, and
making a good reference client and server is the way to push it. The web
needs this.
However, promotion in general will do more harm then good. Promoting to
potential coders? sure. But the public? Your just repeating Googles mistake
and pushing something that isnt remotely ready.


~~~
Thomas  Bertines online review show:
http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


On 28 November 2013 14:23, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:

 also if we move it to github, lets finally have discussion for development
 happen on a public wave ;)


 On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:

  i completely agree to move it away from incubation, i think we should
 move
  it out of github make federation easier and then market it on places like
  reddit.
 
  my 2 cents as someone who has been happily using this for sometime but
 sad
  at the lack of progress.
 
  thanks for the devs who do work on it though, wave is awesome and already
  usefull !
 
  fleeky
 
 
  On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Hi Evan
 
  You already have it - wave on github. Here,
  https://github.com/apache/wave
 
  Glad to know someone like you is still interested in wave :)
 
  Frank
 
  On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in grade 8
  and
  at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the
 system. I
  followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just
  learning
  the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking
  forward
  to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted
 by
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's
  goals
  and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo since
  situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts
  which
  are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive.
 
  just a newbies opinion.
 
  Evan Hughes
 
 
  On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier 
  grobme...@gmail.comwrote:
 
   Hi folks,
  
   it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone.
  
   I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right
  place.
   Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases
  and
   is - in a way - active.
  
   I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen
  working
   on the codebase recently was Ali.
   He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to
 receive
   the necessary votes from its own team.
  
   My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have
 only
   little hope.
  
   Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again):
  
   Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is
 now?
  
   If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that
  goal.
  
   Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the
   incubation until the community around Wave has grown.
  
   Thoughts?
  
   Christian
  
  
   ---
   http://www.grobmeier.de
   @grobmeier
   GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-28 Thread Ewan Slater

Hi,

I joined the mailing list a couple of months ago with every intention of
contributing but unfortunately life  work has got in the way.

From my perspective what would really help would be some kind of developer
on boarding process.  Have one of the more established developers reach
out to the noobs like me, why we're interested, what skills we've got, how
much we can contribute and help us identify some tasks that we might be
able to usefully work on and find interesting.

In my case, I'm interested because I'm more convinced than ever that Wave
is exactly what business needs for social collaboration at work and I was
gutted when Google dropped it.  My skills are mainly Java, and I could
probably fit in an hour a week.

Cheers,

Ewan


On 28 November 2013 13:32, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote:

 Speaking as someone unable to contribute code to the client as its too
 heavily tide into the server (which I cant make heads not tails of), how
 will any move effect things? how will it help? wont it just be rearranging
 things again that have little, if anything, to do with getting anything
 actually done?

 I am still massively enthusiastic about WFP as a communication method, and
 making a good reference client and server is the way to push it. The web
 needs this.
 However, promotion in general will do more harm then good. Promoting to
 potential coders? sure. But the public? Your just repeating Googles mistake
 and pushing something that isnt remotely ready.


 ~~~
 Thomas  Bertines online review show:
 http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
 Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)


 On 28 November 2013 14:23, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:

  also if we move it to github, lets finally have discussion for
 development
  happen on a public wave ;)
 
 
  On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   i completely agree to move it away from incubation, i think we should
  move
   it out of github make federation easier and then market it on places
 like
   reddit.
  
   my 2 cents as someone who has been happily using this for sometime but
  sad
   at the lack of progress.
  
   thanks for the devs who do work on it though, wave is awesome and
 already
   usefull !
  
   fleeky
  
  
   On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  
   Hi Evan
  
   You already have it - wave on github. Here,
   https://github.com/apache/wave
  
   Glad to know someone like you is still interested in wave :)
  
   Frank
  
   On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  
   As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in
 grade 8
   and
   at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the
  system. I
   followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just
   learning
   the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking
   forward
   to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted
  by
   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's
   goals
   and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo
 since
   situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts
   which
   are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive.
  
   just a newbies opinion.
  
   Evan Hughes
  
  
   On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier 
   grobme...@gmail.comwrote:
  
Hi folks,
   
it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone.
   
I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right
   place.
Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do
 releases
   and
is - in a way - active.
   
I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen
   working
on the codebase recently was Ali.
He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to
  receive
the necessary votes from its own team.
   
My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have
  only
little hope.
   
Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again):
   
Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is
  now?
   
If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve
 that
   goal.
   
Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the
incubation until the community around Wave has grown.
   
Thoughts?
   
Christian
   
   
---
http://www.grobmeier.de
@grobmeier
GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status


 move it away from incubation

Will it make any difference?

I'm working at a company where Google Drive, Evernote, and other third
party cloud applications are forbidden. I found Wave in a Box a good
replacement. Recently, I made some effort on full text
searchhttps://issues.apache.org/jira/browse/WAVE-311,
a much-to-have feature if you're going to have a lot of waves. Currently,
there are five people in my team use wave actively everyday.

I'm new to the community. I want to contribute more though I've noticed the
inactivity in the development.

May I ask (ignorantly) will it change anything where to host the project?


On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 9:23 PM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:

 i completely agree to move it away from incubation, i think we should move
 it out of github make federation easier and then market it on places like
 reddit.

 my 2 cents as someone who has been happily using this for sometime but sad
 at the lack of progress.

 thanks for the devs who do work on it though, wave is awesome and already
 usefull !

 fleeky


 On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com wrote:

  Hi Evan
 
  You already have it - wave on github. Here,
 https://github.com/apache/wave
 
  Glad to know someone like you is still interested in wave :)
 
  Frank
 
  On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in grade 8
  and
  at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the system.
 I
  followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just
 learning
  the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking
 forward
  to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as depicted by
  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current incubator's
 goals
  and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo since
  situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the enthusiasts
  which
  are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive.
 
  just a newbies opinion.
 
  Evan Hughes
 
 
  On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier 
 grobme...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
   Hi folks,
  
   it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone.
  
   I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right
 place.
   Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do releases
 and
   is - in a way - active.
  
   I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have seen
  working
   on the codebase recently was Ali.
   He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to
 receive
   the necessary votes from its own team.
  
   My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I have
 only
   little hope.
  
   Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again):
  
   Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now?
  
   If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that
  goal.
  
   Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the
   incubation until the community around Wave has grown.
  
   Thoughts?
  
   Christian
  
  
   ---
   http://www.grobmeier.de
   @grobmeier
   GPG: 0xA5CC90DB

Re: Incubation status

2013-11-28 Thread Ali Lown

@Christian:
Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again):

Is this still Devil's advocate though? I have had a very similar email
sitting in my drafts for the last month asking the same questions
about the future of Wave.

Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is now?
If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve that goal.
Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close the incubation 
until the community around Wave has grown.

I shall answer your questions throughout this email, though it
probably suffices to say that I no longer think Apache Incubator is
the right place for Wave (in its current form).
(With retirement: what happens to the project's source code license?
Does it become public domain instead of licensed to the ASF?)


@FrankR:
You already have it - wave on github. Here, https://github.com/apache/wave

Yes, the code is on GitHub. (Though this is simply a one-mirror of the
Apache SVN tree).
[Though, if we retire the project that will no longer exist - I
suggest watching one of the personal trees (e.g. mine)
https://github.com/alown/wave].
When people are calling for GitHub, they are actually asking for the
development style that it uses: Git, Pull Requests, Quick-forking,
Less 'paperwork'. [And to some extent the 'coolness' factor - which is
not to be underestimated for getting development support].

@Fleeky:
lets finally have discussion for development happen on a public wave ;)

I agree that the dogfooding should really have been a thing, but it
hasn't been possible here. (Though I hestitate to say whether Wave is
stable enough for multiple users heavily editing a Wave - my anecdotal
data says it tends to 'get stuck' around the 100 blips mark).

@Thomas:
 Speaking as someone unable to contribute code to the client as its too
 heavily tide into the server (which I cant make heads not tails of),

This is a major contention point. It is definitely too tied together,
but because of this, it is very difficult to separate it now... (But
this is something that must be done).

@Thomas/FrankR:
how will any move effect things? how will it help? wont it just be rearranging
 things again that have little, if anything, to do with getting anything
 actually done?

It would indeed seem mostly arbitrary with regards to the tooling. The
ethic however is quite different for GH projects, compared to Apache
projects. (And I would argue it is this, that is part of the reason we
struggle to maintain active developers here).

The other problem, is that at ~500,000 LOC of Java, it is not easy for
new people to get involved. (@Ewan: This ties in to your point, but it
would take more than a few weeks to get someone familiar with this
codebase [I have been focused almost exclusively on the server code
for the last ~3 years, but I still couldn't tell you exactly how it
all fits together - which is why the corruption issues are still
outstanding]).

 I am still massively enthusiastic about WFP as a communication method, and
 making a good reference client and server is the way to push it.

This I agree with, but it also tells us what our actual aim should be:
A clearly separated library for using WFP to create things - of which
the client/server are examples...

Ultimately, from my point of view, a move to GitHub would provide us
with several things:
- Full Git integration (The Apache system is still very awkward to use
and git-svn still chokes on things occasionally).
- The GitHub 'ethic' - hard to explain
- The opportunity to change the working style. I feel that the
'meritocracy' approach only works well for clearly established
projects. Wave has too many options - and it is this that is dividing
the effort going in to it. Making decisions here is proving incredibly
difficult, getting votes for releases is very difficult, etc. As such,
I would push for a much clearer philosophy of the 'new project'.

Sorry about the long email. :)
Comments?

Ali

Re: Incubation status

Hi Ewan

I agree with you. Here are my skills.

   - Competent in GWT, i.e. Java + HTML + CSS + JS. The UI of wave is built
   with GWT, right?
   - Basic understanding in XMPP.
   - More on my Google+ profile https://plus.google.com/u/0/+FrankR/about

My available hours should be flexible. Maximum, 10 hours.

On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 9:46 PM, Ewan Slater ewan.sla...@googlemail.comwrote:

 Hi,

 I joined the mailing list a couple of months ago with every intention of
 contributing but unfortunately life  work has got in the way.

 From my perspective what would really help would be some kind of developer
 on boarding process.  Have one of the more established developers reach
 out to the noobs like me, why we're interested, what skills we've got, how
 much we can contribute and help us identify some tasks that we might be
 able to usefully work on and find interesting.

 In my case, I'm interested because I'm more convinced than ever that Wave
 is exactly what business needs for social collaboration at work and I was
 gutted when Google dropped it.  My skills are mainly Java, and I could
 probably fit in an hour a week.

 Cheers,

 Ewan


 On 28 November 2013 13:32, Thomas Wrobel darkfl...@gmail.com wrote:

  Speaking as someone unable to contribute code to the client as its too
  heavily tide into the server (which I cant make heads not tails of), how
  will any move effect things? how will it help? wont it just be
 rearranging
  things again that have little, if anything, to do with getting anything
  actually done?
 
  I am still massively enthusiastic about WFP as a communication method,
 and
  making a good reference client and server is the way to push it. The web
  needs this.
  However, promotion in general will do more harm then good. Promoting to
  potential coders? sure. But the public? Your just repeating Googles
 mistake
  and pushing something that isnt remotely ready.
 
 
  ~~~
  Thomas  Bertines online review show:
  http://randomreviewshow.com/index.html
  Try it! You might even feel ambivalent about it :)
 
 
  On 28 November 2013 14:23, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   also if we move it to github, lets finally have discussion for
  development
   happen on a public wave ;)
  
  
   On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:23 PM, Fleeky Flanco fle...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  
i completely agree to move it away from incubation, i think we should
   move
it out of github make federation easier and then market it on places
  like
reddit.
   
my 2 cents as someone who has been happily using this for sometime
 but
   sad
at the lack of progress.
   
thanks for the devs who do work on it though, wave is awesome and
  already
usefull !
   
fleeky
   
   
On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 2:01 PM, Frank R. renfeng...@gmail.com
  wrote:
   
Hi Evan
   
You already have it - wave on github. Here,
https://github.com/apache/wave
   
Glad to know someone like you is still interested in wave :)
   
Frank
   
On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:09 PM, Evan Hughes ehu...@gmail.com
  wrote:
   
As a student I first experienced Google wave back when I was in
  grade 8
and
at the time couldn't contribute or really take advantage of the
   system. I
followed it to 'wave in a box' and to the incubator but only just
learning
the programming skills to contribute in development. I was looking
forward
to seeing development into its original plans like the UI as
 depicted
   by
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfqThLudfEg. The current
 incubator's
goals
and forward development is a bit vague and probably needs a redo
  since
situations changed. If you move Apache wave to GitHub the
 enthusiasts
which
are pretty much who are left will follow, Wave will still survive.
   
just a newbies opinion.
   
Evan Hughes
   
   
On Thu, Nov 28, 2013 at 8:02 PM, Christian Grobmeier 
grobme...@gmail.comwrote:
   
 Hi folks,

 it seems as the first steam with the new people is gone.

 I believe it makes sense to discuss if the incubator is the right
place.
 Incubation has a specific goal: forming a team which can do
  releases
and
 is - in a way - active.

 I see there is little activity at all. The only person i have
 seen
working
 on the codebase recently was Ali.
 He also was the release manager of package which had trouble to
   receive
 the necessary votes from its own team.

 My hope was this would change in the past months. But today I
 have
   only
 little hope.

 Playing the devils advocate I ask you (again):

 Do you folks believe the incubator can ever be completed as it is
   now?

 If you believe yes, please let me know why or how we can achieve
  that
goal.

 Otherwise my recommendation is to move Wave to GitHub and close
 the
 incubation until the community around Wave has grown.

 Thoughts?

Re: Incubation status