Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Hello all, In response to this I wrote something in defence of friendly space policies, as I think we are looking at them the wrong way. It's far from complete but just a few ideas. TL:DR: Safe space policies are important, but being both less defensive, and less judgemental about infractions,

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

In the world we have a big problem of violence against women, but also towards to the LGBT+ community and I think these problems are a serious problem we all can recognise. To create clarity we have a Friendly Space Policy what clearly defines what is unacceptable, something that we all can

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 4:11 AM cs wrote: > > I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career - but > not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing ‘Don’t > touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk to me’ > badges. Do

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Concerning photographs, it would be easier if they were generally limited to some kind of "official photographers" & group photographs during those events. I'm new to Wikimedia events, and only attended two, last WMCON in Berlin and Big Fat Brussels. In Brussels we were asked to not photograph the

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Le lun. 6 août 2018 à 09:34, CS a écrit : > I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an > event which of its very nature is much photographed, just need to be aware > of that and stay out of range of the viewfinder. That is not a Herculean > task. > The goal of

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 2:34 PM CS wrote: > I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an > event which of its very nature is much photographed, just need to be aware > of that and stay out of range of the viewfinder. That is not a Herculean > task. > I agree with

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

+1 Regards, *Ranjith Siji* Smashing Web www.smashingweb.info Chat Google Talk: ranjith.sajeev Skype: ranjith.sajeev On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 1:04 PM CS wrote: > I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an > event which of its very nature

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

I concede your points, but people who don't want to be photographed at an event which of its very nature is much photographed, just need to be aware of that and stay out of range of the viewfinder. That is not a Herculean task. Kudpung > On 6 Aug 2018, at 13:45, Kevin Payravi wrote: > >

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Lodeweik, I never mentioned nor hinted at second rank participants. If you think some are, that's your problem but don't misquote me. Thank you. Kudpung > On 6 Aug 2018, at 14:17, Gnangarra wrote: > > The policy can not be expected to wholly and solely ensure the safety of > attendees,

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

The policy can not be expected to wholly and solely ensure the safety of attendees, likewise stickers arent going to be readily identifiable in all circumstances. Then ask yourself the question what if someone who wears a dont photograph me lanyard is walking around photographing other people.

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Indeed. Participants don't get the "no photo" lanyards because they are embarrassed to be part of the movement. There are real and important reasons participants desire not to be photographed. Some come from countries where their participation on the movement is cause enough for arrest. Others

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

This is going wildly of topic. But... The decency? I don't think i would agree with your characterization that people who don't like to give a carte blanche to everyone to publish (sometimes not very elegant) photos of them should treat themselves as second rank participants. Especially in the

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

In which case, those people should have the decency to not present themselves anywhere where a photo shoot or video recording is very likely to take place. Or politely take space at the back of the room and wear a face mask. Personally, I don’t see why anyone should be

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

I was disappointed at the last Wikimania(london 2014) I went to with the number of people wearing dont take my photo stickers taking up positions at the front of the room or near speakers that made it hard to get images of the room and record the event. On 6 August 2018 at 11:11, cs wrote: >

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

I’ve been to a great many international conferences in my career - but not so many since I retired. I can’t recall people wearing ‘Don’t touch me’, ‘Don’t photo me’, ‘Don’t come near me’, ‘Don’t talk to me’ badges. Do they do it nowadays already? We’ll porbably

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

From: Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Pine W Sent: 03 August 2018 21:08 To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news) Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction be

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

I agree on the tracking issue. A few years ago I heard about a situation in which a law enforcement agency was tracking complaints about its officers and learned through that system that one of its officers had a pattern of receiving "courtesy complaints", not bad enough to indicate that the

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

> I'm confused about why WMF is in charge of these issues at events instead of the local organizers I'm not sure if saying that the Foundation is in charge of safe space at local events is accurate; I see it as a shared responsibility between the Foundation and local organizers, and participants

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Thanks, James. I think that "clarifying the distinction between friendly spaces situations and Trust & Safety issues" is a good idea. A specific suggestion that was made earlier in this thread which sounded like a good idea to me was to have an indicator, somewhat like we currently do for "Photos

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Hey all, The Trust & Safety team appreciates and has carefully reviewed the input provided here, in person during the event, and off-list. As the wider Wikimedia movement and offline Wikimedia events grow and mature, so must support for those events. That support takes many forms, but includes

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Since I didn't went to wikimania and other people were already making the points I wanted to make I tried to stay out of the conversation, but now I need to answer something. ***Men (add well-educated, straight, able-bodied, wealthy if you wish) from whatever ethnic group is most prominent in the

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Probably the best thing that can happen to this thread now is that it dies off, but I did just want to respond to this point by Pine, because it's really important: > 1. How, exactly, are white males unqualified to discuss the Friendly Space > Policy because of their/our identity as white males?

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Il giorno lun 30 lug 2018 alle ore 12:57 Deryck Chan ha scritto: > The problem here is that if WMF or the organisers of an event needs to > enforce FSP and keeps secret about the entire incident, speculation and > one-sided perspectives can run amok in the community debate that ensues. > >

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Il giorno lun 30 lug 2018 alle ore 09:00 Philip Kopetzky ha scritto: > Guys, can you please take any discussion among you white males to Wikimedia-l > if you still feel the need to discuss this amongst you? You can't force a > public debate, especially wheb Asaf and Lilli have already stated

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 3:56 PM Mina Theofilatou wrote: > White female speaking: this is an important discussion for EVERYONE. I > will refrain from replying often as I was upset by the incident in CT, and > I have personal experience of an incident at Wikimania 2016, and thus I > find it hard

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Let's move beyond who is and isn't qualified to comment on the policy. The spirit of the Friendly Space Policy is that it should create a friendly space for every participant, regardless of background. Participants of this thread generally agree on what it means to feel safe. There is relatively

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

generally remains on a > topic of public importance. > > > Pine > ( https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Pine ) > > > > > > > > *From: *Philip Kopetzky > *Sent: *30 July 2018 09:01 > *To: *Wikimania general list (open subscription) > > *Subject: *Re

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

: Philip Kopetzky Sent: 30 July 2018 09:01 To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news) Guys, can you please take any discussion among you white males to Wikimedia-l if you still feel the need to discuss this amongst you? You can't force

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Switzerland - 8008 Zürich Wikipedia: Ilario Skype: valdelli Tel: +41764821371 http://www.wikimedia.ch From: Philip Kopetzky Sent: 30 July 2018 09:01 To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news) Guys, can you please take any

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Guys, can you please take any discussion among you white males to Wikimedia-l if you still feel the need to discuss this amongst you? You can't force a public debate, especially wheb Asaf and Lilli have already stated the obvious. On Mon, 30 Jul 2018, 08:39 Ilario Valdelli, wrote: > Hi all, > >

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Hi all, I comment here because this reply is important and I agree with it but I would also stress that 75% of the women being harassed probably are in position where someone takes an advantage of his position to create around these women a forced silence and the possibility of blackmail. But

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Hi dab, I'm glad you didn't experience any problems. May i ask how you conclude that we "survived"? What does it mean? No incidents? No murders? No near-incidents? I'm just trying to understand how you evaluate the success of a (no) policy. Lodewijk On Mon, Jul 30, 2018, 02:24 DaB. wrote: >

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Hello John. Am 29.07.2018 um 23:40 schrieb John Hendrik Weitzmann: > Nobody here seems to doubt that we need norms, especially at and around > events. I was at 2 Wikimanias, 5 WikiCons, several workshops and meetings, and nearly 2 dozen of WMDE-chapter-meeting – and only the very least of them

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

One reliable way to silence people when they experience harassment as well > as keeping others from speaking out, is to have them experience how other, > non-involved people, would immediately have an opinion on what happened and > judge the case or the person in question. This is what has

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

I have no personal knowledge of the recent events at Wikimania, and I will speak about only the general principles involved. > True. But for privacy and other reasons, it is impractical to make > friendly-space violations a matter of public debate, > Please provide evidence that backs up that

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Hi all, someone asked me not to comment on this issue anymore, but as I think/hope that we are now on the meta level, let me remind everyone that a policy is just a particular aggregate state of norms. Nobody here seems to doubt that we need norms, especially at and around events. And norms often

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

I disagree that there is no use for a policy at all. Sure, there are laws, but I would prefer not to have to use them - that we can avoid misbehavior in the first place. Having a good and consistent policy helps Wikipedians navigate. Don't (just) define what is forbidden, but (also) define what is

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Hello. Am 29.07.2018 um 19:27 schrieb Chris Keating: > to make sure everyone is welcome You mean everyone that is not a little deaf, speaks not a little too loud and does not dare to deliver stuff to other sessions? The hole case is a primary example why such things as a friendly-space-policy

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

On 29 July 2018 at 18:27, Chris Keating wrote: > Lots of opinions from people going "well this person didn't harass > me" or "I don't know the specifics but maybe it's just cultural > differences" I'm one of the people who commented, early on, on that original thread; and I don't believe that

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

There is a gulf between behavior that might make someone uncomfortable, which may be the result of cultural differences, and harassment or violence. We should take care to ensure people who need some education on the former don't feel like they have been found guilty of the latter. And such

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 7:04 PM Lilli Iliev wrote: > According to the Fundamental Rights Agency, 75% of women in qualified > professions or top management jobs have been sexually harassed[1]. > Where did you get that figure from? When I Control+F the number "75" nowhere in that document you

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 8:57 PM Federico Leva (Nemo) wrote: > Lilli Iliev, 29/07/2018 20:04: > > One reliable way to silence people when they experience harassment as > > well as keeping others from speaking out, is to have them experience how > > other, non-involved people, would immediately

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Lilli Iliev, 29/07/2018 20:04: One reliable way to silence people when they experience harassment as well as keeping others from speaking out, is to have them experience how other, non-involved people, would immediately have an opinion on what happened and judge the case or the person in

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Thanks for writing this Lilli - I completely agree. Lots of opinions from people going "well this person didn't harass me" or "I don't know the specifics but maybe it's just cultural differences" or "omg the WMF has done something outrageous again" do not really help this kind of situation. If

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Sorry about that Lodewijk, I thought the change of title was plainly to make the title more relevant to the discussion. For all it's worth, my contribution to this discussion in the general policy sense can be summarised in the capitalised word of my previous reply's first sentence: TRANSPARENCY.

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Hi Mina, I intentionally started a new thread to be able to have a more abstract discussion about the general policy. I would highly appreciate it if you won't bring it back to the single case. Thank you. Lodewijk On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 11:48 AM Mina Theofilatou wrote: > People: our

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

People: our movement is founded on TRANSPARENCY. Which is - sadly - totally lacking in the Support and Safety Department. The Friendly Spaces policy supposedly protects Wikimedians against threat: examples of such have been provided. Romaine's behaviour quite simply does not fall under the

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

Unfortunately, almost every tool can be used as a weapon. Cheers, Peter From: Wikimania-l [mailto:wikimania-l-boun...@lists.wikimedia.org] On Behalf Of Gnangarra Sent: 29 July 2018 04:45 To: Wikimania general list (open subscription) Subject: Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy

Re: [Wikimania-l] Friendly Space Policy (was: Sad news)

I think the problem is that many Wikimedians are very good at interpreting policies in to definite rules to suit their point of view, and we struggle to recognise that the spirit of a policy is more important. When that happens we write more complexity in to policies rather than keeping it simple