Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Gerard, Citizenship in the digital world is more flexible than in the real world, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or that it cannot be characterized. It is just a matter of providing a conceptual framework for defining rights, obligations, etc. and it avoids precisely that a person, or

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Hoi, David, who is the community and how do you get members of the community recognise and respect the decisions it does not like that are taken on their behalf by "its" representatives. We do not have one community, we have many. The interests people aim for are diverse and all too often contradic

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 11:30 PM, Chris Keating wrote: > how should this be solved? > > To me it's saying that no matter who is informed, the WMF can never expect > that their work won't be overruled. > > That is problematic (regardless of who has the final authority) A first step would be to a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On 8/14/14, 3:35 PM, David Gerard wrote: On 14 August 2014 13:56, David Cuenca wrote: It would be more sensible to let contributors participate in the tech roadmap in more formal and empowered way than now, because without that early participation there is no possibility for later consensus.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Fri, 15 Aug 2014, at 09:47, svetlana wrote: > On Thu, 14 Aug 2014, at 23:35, David Gerard wrote: > > On 14 August 2014 13:56, David Cuenca wrote: > > > > > It would be more sensible to let contributors participate in the tech > > > roadmap in more formal and empowered way than now, because wit

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Thu, 14 Aug 2014, at 23:35, David Gerard wrote: > On 14 August 2014 13:56, David Cuenca wrote: > > > It would be more sensible to let contributors participate in the tech > > roadmap in more formal and empowered way than now, because without that > > early participation there is no possibility

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On 14/08/14 16:07, Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote: This is actually not correct. Take pending changes on the English Wikipedia as an example - people used to complain a lot on how RfC's were closed, but this is the business of the community. I have never heard anybody complaining that the trial suck

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On 14 Aug 2014 14:50, "David Cuenca" wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 3:35 PM, David Gerard wrote: > > > A pattern we see over and over is that the developers talk at length > > about what they're working on in several venues, then it's released > > and people claiming to speak for the communit

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On 14 August 2014 20:27, Marc A. Pelletier wrote: > On 08/14/2014 02:36 PM, David Gerard wrote: >> So locally-editable site JavaScript, for locally-important gadgets and >> so forth, is in fact something that's needed. > That seems reasonable, but it's less clear to me that this should be > bund

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On 08/14/2014 02:36 PM, David Gerard wrote: > So locally-editable site JavaScript, for locally-important gadgets and > so forth, is in fact something that's needed. That seems reasonable, but it's less clear to me that this should be bundled with / part of the 'editinterface' right, at least as it

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On 14 August 2014 16:27, Richard Farmbrough wrote: > 3. The ongoing question of software development. The WMF is supposed to "to > empower and engage" the communities to disseminate content "effectively > and globally." It is not supposed to run with its own agenda. Bugs and > feature reques

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On 14.08.2014 15:35, David Gerard wrote: On 14 August 2014 13:56, David Cuenca wrote: It would be more sensible to let contributors participate in the tech roadmap in more formal and empowered way than now, because without that early participation there is no possibility for later consensus.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Erik said: >We are very open to continuing the discussion about how the feature >should be configured, how it should be improved, and how it should be >integrated in the site experience The message that is being given, though is, to quote Mathilda "I'm smart; you're dumb; I'm big, you're little;

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 3:35 PM, David Gerard wrote: > A pattern we see over and over is that the developers talk at length > about what they're working on in several venues, then it's released > and people claiming to speak for the community claim they were not > adequately consulted. Pretty muc

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Aug 14, 2014 3:58 AM, "Erik Moeller" wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 5:41 AM, MZMcBride wrote: > > Is there anything that the German Wikipedia could do to convince you to > > disable MediaViewer there? Some percentage of active users showing up to > > say so? Some percentage of users (logge

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On 14 August 2014 13:56, David Cuenca wrote: > It would be more sensible to let contributors participate in the tech > roadmap in more formal and empowered way than now, because without that > early participation there is no possibility for later consensus. A pattern we see over and over is tha

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Erik, I'm impartial about the mediaviewer, but I have the feeling that this is a recurring a pattern: 1) contributors ask for some change to improve their experience or the reader's experience 2) their request is ignored because either it doesn't fit in the big picture, or there is no mechanism fo

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 5:41 AM, MZMcBride wrote: > Is there anything that the German Wikipedia could do to convince you to > disable MediaViewer there? Some percentage of active users showing up to > say so? Some percentage of users (logged-in or otherwise) disabling the > feature? (Presumably we

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

FYI, Lila had chosen to engage in discussion on her meta talk page. Numerous editors are commenting there. Discussion also continues on the meta RFC and on the English Wikipedia arbitration workshop page. Pine On Aug 14, 2014 12:03 AM, "Russavia" wrote: Erik On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 5:32 AM, Eri

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Erik On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 5:32 AM, Erik Moeller wrote: > > This is why on all major sites, you see a gradual ramp-up of a new > feature, and continued improvement once it's widely used. Often > there's an opt-in and then an opt-out to ease users into the change. > But once a change is launche

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Erik Moeller wrote: >This is why on all major sites, you see a gradual ramp-up of a new >feature, and continued improvement once it's widely used. Often >there's an opt-in and then an opt-out to ease users into the change. >But once a change is launched, it very rarely gets rolled back unless >it's

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Thu, 14 Aug 2014, at 00:50, Pete Forsyth wrote: > On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 3:27 AM, svetlana wrote: > > [...] > > Surely this issue can be solved by talking without force: if you don't > > think so, you get force applied to YOU; you started a fight, and lost it. > > > I have advocated using fo

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 2:32 PM, Erik Moeller wrote: > But the idea that WMF > always must slavishly execute the result of a poll or vote is neither > rational nor sustainable, > While there may be some who suggest that WMF should do so, I am not one of them -- and nor are many of my colleagues.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 10:12 PM, Pete Forsyth wrote: > In favor of the Media Viewer software is a bunch of inquiry and analysis > Restoring the default state of the software to the state that worked for > the last decade is a clear precondition for healthier discussion of a > positive path forwar

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

A Dutch politician once said in a presentation: 'Sometimes citizens come to us and say: You don't listen. Then I answer: Well, we do listen, but we also listen to the millions of inhabitants who have other opinions.' Kind regards Ziko 2014-08-13 22:47 GMT+02:00 Michael Peel : > > On 13 Aug 2014,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On 13 Aug 2014, at 21:12, Pete Forsyth wrote: > On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Marc A. Pelletier > wrote: > >> There is no such thing as "the community"; we have a huge collection of >> communities joined loosely over a number of ambigously shared principles >> that often - but not always -

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

13.08.2014, 01:46, "svetlana" : > > if the community was not so willing to use force (ie a js hack) against the > other party > > instead of talking properly > > then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all > > you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it? > desire to act out of the blue in

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Marc A. Pelletier wrote: > There is no such thing as "the community"; we have a huge collection of > communities joined loosely over a number of ambigously shared principles > that often - but not always - move in more or less the same direction. > > Anyone who c

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On 08/13/2014 01:31 PM, Trillium Corsage wrote: > [...] that he has affronted "the community." I've spent no small amount of years involved in the various layers of administrative/governance/meta aspects of the English Wikipedia and from this I learned one lesson: "Whenever someone says 'the comm

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 3:27 AM, svetlana wrote: > On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 10:53, Pete Forsyth wrote: > > On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 5:46 PM, svetlana > wrote: > > > > > On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: > > > > That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care >

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 12:01, Romaine Wiki wrote: > 2014-08-13 2:46 GMT+02:00 svetlana : > > [..] > [...] > > instead of talking properly > > > > then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all > > > > you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it? > > desire to act out of the blue instead of coll

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 10:53, Pete Forsyth wrote: > On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 5:46 PM, svetlana wrote: > > > On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: > > > That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very > > > much about the site and they notice something is terr

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On 13.08.2014 05:57, Pine W wrote: Two points I have heard off list are that 1. While it may be that disabling MV by default for logged-in users can be done, disabling it for those not logged-in is effectively another major UI change which a study shows likely will make some of them leave and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On 13.08.2014 02:48, svetlana wrote: On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 10:46, svetlana wrote: this community thinks that its power structures allow to tromp onto other people sysops aren't even held accountable they are elected once for an infinite term nobody reviews their contribution in position in

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Two points I have heard off list are that 1. While it may be that disabling MV by default for logged-in users can be done, disabling it for those not logged-in is effectively another major UI change which a study shows likely will make some of them leave and not return; 2. German Wikimedians are go

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-13 2:46 GMT+02:00 svetlana : > On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: > > That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very > > much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on > > WMF side and too less is done to fix those problem

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

If the WF wasn't so willing to use force (i.e. pushing unwanted changes) against the other party instead of talking properly then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it? desire to act out of the blue instead of collaborating they didn't collabora

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 5:46 PM, svetlana wrote: > On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: > > That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very > > much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on > > WMF side and too less is done to fix

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 10:48 AM, svetlana wrote: > On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 10:46, svetlana wrote: >> On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: >> > That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very >> > much about the site and they notice something is terrible goin

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 10:46, svetlana wrote: > On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: > > That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very > > much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on > > WMF side and too less is done to fix thos

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: > That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very > much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on > WMF side and too less is done to fix those problems/issues! if the community was not so willing

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 6:54 PM, John Mark Vandenberg wrote: > On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 3:49 AM, Brad Jorsch (Anomie) > wrote: > > On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 2:01 PM, John Mark Vandenberg > > wrote: > > > >> Before this, there was no expectation that a page could be protected > >> such that sysops

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Has it ever come to the mind that something is going wrong on how the community is approached? Has it ever come to the mind that some software implementations have gone to hastily with negative effects? That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very much about the site a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Craig Franklin wrote: > I'll be writing a longer post on the Meta RFC later, but can you confirm > whether the idea is to "superprotect" key interface pages like > [[Mediawiki:common.js]] on a permanent basis, or will this feature only be > used to lock pages tem

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Straniu, Jimbo's comments in his keynote about forking concerned encouraging competent editors who can't work cooperatively with other people to fork in a way that would be better for everyone in the long run. I don't believe this disappointing confrontation between the WMF and volunteers were wha

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Erik, I'll be writing a longer post on the Meta RFC later, but can you confirm whether the idea is to "superprotect" key interface pages like [[Mediawiki:common.js]] on a permanent basis, or will this feature only be used to lock pages temporarily in the case of wheel warring or other circumstance

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 3:49 AM, Brad Jorsch (Anomie) wrote: > On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 2:01 PM, John Mark Vandenberg > wrote: > >> Before this, there was no expectation that a page could be protected >> such that sysops could not alter the content of the superprotected >> page. >> > > This is fal

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 2:01 PM, John Mark Vandenberg wrote: > Before this, there was no expectation that a page could be protected > such that sysops could not alter the content of the superprotected > page. > This is false. > Now, the devs/ops have attempted to introduce that capability, and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

And what happens when said admin is overwhelmingly reelected by the community? This is not the way forward. WMF can't continue to treat its volunteers in this manner. On Aug 11, 2014 12:01 PM, "John Mark Vandenberg" wrote: > On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 12:18 AM, Brian Wolff wrote: > >> > >> Now, ha

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 12:18 AM, Brian Wolff wrote: >> >> Now, having observed that not only user Eloquence (aka Erik Moeller) >> himself engaged in the enforcement of right on de.wp >> [1] but soon after a workaround was published a change was deployed >> [2, 3] as counter measurement to block

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Erik, I wonder, did you have discussion with other staff and moreso, the technical staff before you went ahead and implemented this and also something most of us are wondering, just because dewiki did not accept your "enforcement" of MediaViewer, did you abuse your authority and force the technical

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Mon, 11 Aug 2014, at 08:42, Tomasz W. Kozłowski wrote: > Someone is definitely forgetting that Wikimedia wikis are not the > Foundation's personal playground. It is becoming one for a long time now. svetlana ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 11:42 PM, Tomasz W. Kozłowski wrote: > Someone is definitely forgetting that Wikimedia wikis are not the > Foundation's personal playground. > > You should be ashamed of yourself, Erik, and you should resign or be fired. > > And all volunteers should make sure to remember w

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

The show must go on. To ensure that no German Wikipedia administrator deletes MediaWiki:Common.js to cancel the super-protection, the WMF has just merged and deployed it to Wikimedia wikis as a matter of emergency after a personal request from Erik Moll

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 6:29 PM, John Mark Vandenberg wrote: > As this has wide-ranging implications, I have started an RFC on meta > > https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Superprotect_rights With that done, I'd like to ask that discussion on this topic be continued there. Not th

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

> > It is clear to me that the Foundation has agreed on this sneaky change > behind closed doors while some of the most outspoken Wikimedia > volunteers were (and still are) gathered in London. It's interesting you mention Wikimania, because one of the things I took away from the conference was t

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

This is, by far, the most disgusting and disrespectful action undertaken by the Foundation that I have ever witnessed. The 2012 mass desysopping of volunteer administrators on the WMF wiki and the past threats of desysopping users re: VisualEditor and MediaViewer do not even come close to this. It

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Erik Moeller wrote: > Hi folks, > > Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user > experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS, > etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been used > for many clearly benefic

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 10:08 PM, MZMcBride wrote: > David Gerard wrote: >>On 10 August 2014 15:51, MZMcBride wrote: >>> You'd been threatening to implement super-protection for a long time. I >>> see you finally made good on this very bad idea. This is certainly bold, >>> but also incredibly rec

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On 10 August 2014 16:08, MZMcBride wrote: > He instigated the arbitration case on the > English Wikipedia That's *definitely* a claim needing actual evidence, considering he didn't bring it. I assume you can produce something. - d. ___ Wikimedia-l

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

David Gerard wrote: >On 10 August 2014 15:51, MZMcBride wrote: >> You'd been threatening to implement super-protection for a long time. I >> see you finally made good on this very bad idea. This is certainly bold, >> but also incredibly reckless. Your response to being told "we don't like >> your

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

On 10 August 2014 15:51, MZMcBride wrote: > You'd been threatening to implement super-protection for a long time. I > see you finally made good on this very bad idea. This is certainly bold, > but also incredibly reckless. Your response to being told "we don't like > your software" is to try shov

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Erik Moeller wrote: >Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user >experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS, >etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been used >for many clearly beneficial purposes. In the long run, we will want to >appl

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Hi Erik, I understand you reasoning, but you couldn't have communicated and timed this in a worse way. You might be doing the right thing, but because of this ill communication and timing, this will be completely overshadowed. That saddens me. Good luck with the shit storm :-( Maarte

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

Hi folks, Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS, etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been used for many clearly beneficial purposes. In the long run, we will want to apply a code revie