Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-15 Thread David Cuenca
On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 11:30 PM, Chris Keating chriskeatingw...@gmail.com wrote: how should this be solved? To me it's saying that no matter who is informed, the WMF can never expect that their work won't be overruled. That is problematic (regardless of who has the final authority) A

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-15 Thread Gerard Meijssen
Hoi, David, who is the community and how do you get members of the community recognise and respect the decisions it does not like that are taken on their behalf by its representatives. We do not have one community, we have many. The interests people aim for are diverse and all too often

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-15 Thread David Cuenca
Gerard, Citizenship in the digital world is more flexible than in the real world, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't exist or that it cannot be characterized. It is just a matter of providing a conceptual framework for defining rights, obligations, etc. and it avoids precisely that a person,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-14 Thread Russavia
Erik On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 5:32 AM, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: This is why on all major sites, you see a gradual ramp-up of a new feature, and continued improvement once it's widely used. Often there's an opt-in and then an opt-out to ease users into the change. But once a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-14 Thread Pine W
FYI, Lila had chosen to engage in discussion on her meta talk page. Numerous editors are commenting there. Discussion also continues on the meta RFC and on the English Wikipedia arbitration workshop page. Pine On Aug 14, 2014 12:03 AM, Russavia russavia.wikipe...@gmail.com wrote: Erik On Thu,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-14 Thread Erik Moeller
On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 5:41 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Is there anything that the German Wikipedia could do to convince you to disable MediaViewer there? Some percentage of active users showing up to say so? Some percentage of users (logged-in or otherwise) disabling the feature?

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-14 Thread David Cuenca
Erik, I'm impartial about the mediaviewer, but I have the feeling that this is a recurring a pattern: 1) contributors ask for some change to improve their experience or the reader's experience 2) their request is ignored because either it doesn't fit in the big picture, or there is no mechanism

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-14 Thread David Gerard
On 14 August 2014 13:56, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com wrote: It would be more sensible to let contributors participate in the tech roadmap in more formal and empowered way than now, because without that early participation there is no possibility for later consensus. A pattern we see over

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-14 Thread Todd Allen
On Aug 14, 2014 3:58 AM, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 5:41 AM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: Is there anything that the German Wikipedia could do to convince you to disable MediaViewer there? Some percentage of active users showing up to say so? Some

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-14 Thread David Cuenca
On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 3:35 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: A pattern we see over and over is that the developers talk at length about what they're working on in several venues, then it's released and people claiming to speak for the community claim they were not adequately

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-14 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 08/14/2014 02:36 PM, David Gerard wrote: So locally-editable site JavaScript, for locally-important gadgets and so forth, is in fact something that's needed. That seems reasonable, but it's less clear to me that this should be bundled with / part of the 'editinterface' right, at least as it

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-14 Thread Chris Keating
On 14 Aug 2014 14:50, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Aug 14, 2014 at 3:35 PM, David Gerard dger...@gmail.com wrote: A pattern we see over and over is that the developers talk at length about what they're working on in several venues, then it's released and people claiming

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-14 Thread Isarra Yos
On 14/08/14 16:07, Yaroslav M. Blanter wrote: This is actually not correct. Take pending changes on the English Wikipedia as an example - people used to complain a lot on how RfC's were closed, but this is the business of the community. I have never heard anybody complaining that the trial

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-14 Thread svetlana
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014, at 23:35, David Gerard wrote: On 14 August 2014 13:56, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com wrote: It would be more sensible to let contributors participate in the tech roadmap in more formal and empowered way than now, because without that early participation there is no

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-14 Thread svetlana
On Fri, 15 Aug 2014, at 09:47, svetlana wrote: On Thu, 14 Aug 2014, at 23:35, David Gerard wrote: On 14 August 2014 13:56, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com wrote: It would be more sensible to let contributors participate in the tech roadmap in more formal and empowered way than now,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-14 Thread Mark
On 8/14/14, 3:35 PM, David Gerard wrote: On 14 August 2014 13:56, David Cuenca dacu...@gmail.com wrote: It would be more sensible to let contributors participate in the tech roadmap in more formal and empowered way than now, because without that early participation there is no possibility for

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-13 Thread Yaroslav M. Blanter
On 13.08.2014 02:48, svetlana wrote: On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 10:46, svetlana wrote: this community thinks that its power structures allow to tromp onto other people sysops aren't even held accountable they are elected once for an infinite term nobody reviews their contribution in position

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-13 Thread Yaroslav M. Blanter
On 13.08.2014 05:57, Pine W wrote: Two points I have heard off list are that 1. While it may be that disabling MV by default for logged-in users can be done, disabling it for those not logged-in is effectively another major UI change which a study shows likely will make some of them leave and

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-13 Thread svetlana
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 10:53, Pete Forsyth wrote: On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 5:46 PM, svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au wrote: On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very much about the site and they notice

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-13 Thread svetlana
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 12:01, Romaine Wiki wrote: 2014-08-13 2:46 GMT+02:00 svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au: [..] [...] instead of talking properly then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it? desire to act out of the blue

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-13 Thread Pete Forsyth
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 3:27 AM, svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au wrote: On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 10:53, Pete Forsyth wrote: On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 5:46 PM, svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au wrote: On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: That the community reacts the way

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-13 Thread Marc A. Pelletier
On 08/13/2014 01:31 PM, Trillium Corsage wrote: [...] that he has affronted the community. I've spent no small amount of years involved in the various layers of administrative/governance/meta aspects of the English Wikipedia and from this I learned one lesson: Whenever someone says 'the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-13 Thread Pete Forsyth
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: There is no such thing as the community; we have a huge collection of communities joined loosely over a number of ambigously shared principles that often - but not always - move in more or less the same direction.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-13 Thread Trillium Corsage
13.08.2014, 01:46, svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au: if the community was not so willing to use force (ie a js hack) against the other party instead of talking properly then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it? desire to act out

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-13 Thread Michael Peel
On 13 Aug 2014, at 21:12, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 12:57 PM, Marc A. Pelletier m...@uberbox.org wrote: There is no such thing as the community; we have a huge collection of communities joined loosely over a number of ambigously shared principles

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-13 Thread Erik Moeller
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 10:12 PM, Pete Forsyth petefors...@gmail.com wrote: In favor of the Media Viewer software is a bunch of inquiry and analysis Restoring the default state of the software to the state that worked for the last decade is a clear precondition for healthier discussion of a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-13 Thread Pete Forsyth
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 2:32 PM, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: But the idea that WMF always must slavishly execute the result of a poll or vote is neither rational nor sustainable, While there may be some who suggest that WMF should do so, I am not one of them -- and nor are many of

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-13 Thread svetlana
On Thu, 14 Aug 2014, at 00:50, Pete Forsyth wrote: On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 3:27 AM, svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au wrote: [...] Surely this issue can be solved by talking without force: if you don't think so, you get force applied to YOU; you started a fight, and lost it. I have

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-13 Thread MZMcBride
Erik Moeller wrote: This is why on all major sites, you see a gradual ramp-up of a new feature, and continued improvement once it's widely used. Often there's an opt-in and then an opt-out to ease users into the change. But once a change is launched, it very rarely gets rolled back unless it's

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-12 Thread Craig Franklin
Erik, I'll be writing a longer post on the Meta RFC later, but can you confirm whether the idea is to superprotect key interface pages like [[Mediawiki:common.js]] on a permanent basis, or will this feature only be used to lock pages temporarily in the case of wheel warring or other circumstances

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-12 Thread Pine W
Straniu, Jimbo's comments in his keynote about forking concerned encouraging competent editors who can't work cooperatively with other people to fork in a way that would be better for everyone in the long run. I don't believe this disappointing confrontation between the WMF and volunteers were

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-12 Thread Erik Moeller
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 10:19 AM, Craig Franklin cfrank...@halonetwork.net wrote: I'll be writing a longer post on the Meta RFC later, but can you confirm whether the idea is to superprotect key interface pages like [[Mediawiki:common.js]] on a permanent basis, or will this feature only be

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-12 Thread Romaine Wiki
Has it ever come to the mind that something is going wrong on how the community is approached? Has it ever come to the mind that some software implementations have gone to hastily with negative effects? That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very much about the site

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-12 Thread Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 6:54 PM, John Mark Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 3:49 AM, Brad Jorsch (Anomie) bjor...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 2:01 PM, John Mark Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote: Before this, there was no expectation that a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-12 Thread svetlana
On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on WMF side and too less is done to fix those problems/issues! if the community was not so willing

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-12 Thread svetlana
On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 10:46, svetlana wrote: On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on WMF side and too less is done to fix those

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-12 Thread John Mark Vandenberg
On Wed, Aug 13, 2014 at 10:48 AM, svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au wrote: On Wed, 13 Aug 2014, at 10:46, svetlana wrote: On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very much about the site and they notice something

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-12 Thread Pete Forsyth
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 5:46 PM, svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au wrote: On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on WMF side and too

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-12 Thread Todd Allen
If the WF wasn't so willing to use force (i.e. pushing unwanted changes) against the other party instead of talking properly then the superprotect wouldn't exist at all you seeing the problem there? whose problem is it? desire to act out of the blue instead of collaborating they didn't

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-12 Thread Romaine Wiki
2014-08-13 2:46 GMT+02:00 svetlana svetl...@fastmail.com.au: On Tue, 12 Aug 2014, at 23:42, Romaine Wiki wrote: That the community reacts the way it does now, is because they care very much about the site and they notice something is terrible going wrong on WMF side and too less is done to

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-11 Thread svetlana
On Mon, 11 Aug 2014, at 08:42, Tomasz W. Kozłowski wrote: Someone is definitely forgetting that Wikimedia wikis are not the Foundation's personal playground. It is becoming one for a long time now. svetlana ___ Wikimedia-l mailing list, guidelines

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-11 Thread Comet styles
Erik, I wonder, did you have discussion with other staff and moreso, the technical staff before you went ahead and implemented this and also something most of us are wondering, just because dewiki did not accept your enforcement of MediaViewer, did you abuse your authority and force the technical

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-11 Thread John Mark Vandenberg
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 12:18 AM, Brian Wolff bawo...@gmail.com wrote: Now, having observed that not only user Eloquence (aka Erik Moeller) himself engaged in the enforcement of superprotect right on de.wp [1] but soon after a workaround was published a change was deployed [2, 3] as counter

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-11 Thread Todd Allen
And what happens when said admin is overwhelmingly reelected by the community? This is not the way forward. WMF can't continue to treat its volunteers in this manner. On Aug 11, 2014 12:01 PM, John Mark Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 12:18 AM, Brian Wolff

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-11 Thread Brad Jorsch (Anomie)
On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 2:01 PM, John Mark Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote: Before this, there was no expectation that a page could be protected such that sysops could not alter the content of the superprotected page. This is false. Now, the devs/ops have attempted to introduce that

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-11 Thread John Mark Vandenberg
On Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 3:49 AM, Brad Jorsch (Anomie) bjor...@wikimedia.org wrote: On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 2:01 PM, John Mark Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote: Before this, there was no expectation that a page could be protected such that sysops could not alter the content of the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-10 Thread Erik Moeller
Hi folks, Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS, etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been used for many clearly beneficial purposes. In the long run, we will want to apply a code

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-10 Thread Maarten Dammers
Hi Erik, I understand you reasoning, but you couldn't have communicated and timed this in a worse way. You might be doing the right thing, but because of this ill communication and timing, this will be completely overshadowed. That saddens me. Good luck with the shit storm :-(

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-10 Thread MZMcBride
Erik Moeller wrote: Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS, etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been used for many clearly beneficial purposes. In the long run, we will want to apply a

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-10 Thread David Gerard
On 10 August 2014 15:51, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: You'd been threatening to implement super-protection for a long time. I see you finally made good on this very bad idea. This is certainly bold, but also incredibly reckless. Your response to being told we don't like your software

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-10 Thread MZMcBride
David Gerard wrote: On 10 August 2014 15:51, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: You'd been threatening to implement super-protection for a long time. I see you finally made good on this very bad idea. This is certainly bold, but also incredibly reckless. Your response to being told we don't

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-10 Thread David Gerard
On 10 August 2014 16:08, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: He instigated the arbitration case on the English Wikipedia That's *definitely* a claim needing actual evidence, considering he didn't bring it. I assume you can produce something. - d.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-10 Thread John Mark Vandenberg
On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 10:08 PM, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: David Gerard wrote: On 10 August 2014 15:51, MZMcBride z...@mzmcbride.com wrote: You'd been threatening to implement super-protection for a long time. I see you finally made good on this very bad idea. This is certainly bold,

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-10 Thread rupert THURNER
On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Erik Moeller e...@wikimedia.org wrote: Hi folks, Admins are currently given broad leeway to customize the user experience for all users, including addition of site-wide JS, CSS, etc. These are important capabilities of the wiki that have been used for many

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-10 Thread Tomasz W . Kozłowski
This is, by far, the most disgusting and disrespectful action undertaken by the Foundation that I have ever witnessed. The 2012 mass desysopping of volunteer administrators on the WMF wiki and the past threats of desysopping users re: VisualEditor and MediaViewer do not even come close to this.

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-10 Thread Chris Keating
It is clear to me that the Foundation has agreed on this sneaky change behind closed doors while some of the most outspoken Wikimedia volunteers were (and still are) gathered in London. It's interesting you mention Wikimania, because one of the things I took away from the conference was the

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-10 Thread Austin Hair
On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 6:29 PM, John Mark Vandenberg jay...@gmail.com wrote: As this has wide-ranging implications, I have started an RFC on meta https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requests_for_comment/Superprotect_rights With that done, I'd like to ask that discussion on this topic be continued

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-10 Thread Tomasz W . Kozłowski
The show must go on. To ensure that no German Wikipedia administrator deletes MediaWiki:Common.js to cancel the super-protection, the WMF has just merged https://gerrit.wikimedia.org/r/#/c/153345/ and deployed it to Wikimedia wikis as a matter of emergency after a personal request from Erik

Re: [Wikimedia-l] [Wikitech-l] Superprotect user right, Comming to a wiki near you

2014-08-10 Thread Austin Hair
On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 11:42 PM, Tomasz W. Kozłowski twkozlow...@gmail.com wrote: Someone is definitely forgetting that Wikimedia wikis are not the Foundation's personal playground. You should be ashamed of yourself, Erik, and you should resign or be fired. And all volunteers should make