Re: [WISPA] Billing and process management system

[Tom DeReggi]

Sounds like a great idea and useful product.
Will be interesting to see what you come up with.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Friday, December 05, 2008 1:07 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Billing and process management system


>I debated on whether to put this out there but since Tim did what the heck
> :) Demarc has been working on something like this for the past few months
> and will soon have a demo site up for people to take a look at our offer.
> But to give you the basis:
> - Our solutions will have about 95% of what both PowerCode and Avansu are
> offering out of the box and 100% soon after.
> - We already have our AP and CPE code ported to IXP425 and Atheros SoC
> boards and plan on supporting what WISP use in the market place.
> - Once the product is announced we are going to be adding feature support
> based on customer feedback in a major way, as long as we get a good amount
> of feedback about a feature its going in :)
> - We will be adding support for all the major AP software like Star-OS and
> MT via what every interface they allow so WISP do not need to change our 
> any
> existing hardware.
> - Because we will control all the software and firmware we will be adding
> many special features that one could only do with this type of control, 
> more
> on this later :)
> - We will have many models to work with any WISP setup, from the basic 
> where
> we host the system on our double redundant servers to an onsite install of
> the code.
> - Now for the fun part this will be a no cost system for all Demarc 
> hardware
> customers! Yes its 100% free ;) Any hardware that is not Demarc will have
> licensing, which is yet to be setup, but to be sure it will be very
> reasonable.
>
> With this all said, I am looking for any feedback from WISPA and their
> members on what they are looking for. Also so you all understand this
> project was started with Whitespace solutions in mind and what it's going 
> to
> need to develop a product line, no more can end WISP create a design and 
> use
> it like they did with 2.4Ghz.
>
>
> Sincerely, Tony Morella
> Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider
> Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008
> http://www.demarctech.com
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:27 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Billing and process management system
>
> Tim,
>
> Now that you have made your shameless self promotion sales pitch :-)  I
> thought I'd scrutinize your comments, palying devils advocate :-)
>
> I have not looked at your BOSS software or Firmwre, so I am asking blind 
> at
> this point. But I am interested in your perspective, since you are
> interested in WISP markets.
>
>> AP and CPE devices will need to use our firmware but
>> once installed can be managed from anywhere. We currently have our
>> firmware
>> ported to half a dozen devices and we're working on adding more ports all
>> the time.
>
> The above was the key comment that got my attention, and how that would
> reflect the reality of what could be a viable target market..
>
> Is it really realistic to "use a BOSS provider's Firmware on APs and 
> CPEs"?
> Come on WISPs have graduated basic Wifi APs and CPEs. It has taken
> almost a decade for the Firmware leaders of today to develop feature rich
> products that WISPs can actually count on working well enough for 
> commercial
>
> deployment. (examples... Mikrotik, StarOS, Ligowave, etc).
> Why would a WISP risk a tried and true solution to convert to something 
> new,
>
> just for integration into a BOSS system? Could they risk that?  Thats like
> going to a CLEC provider and saying... "We have this new BOSS system, 
> would
> you mind just throwing away all your CISCOs.".  Generally what WISPs would
> want more is a BOSS system that could integrate will all their 
> pre-eixsting
> diverse product lines. As a WISP, we all know there are a lot of tools in
> the toolbox, and there is the right tool for each type of job. Even the
> WISPs most religious to staying true to one brand have branched out to use
> many different product lines, because technical reasons and differences in
> their technology forced them to, if they wanted to stay competitive.  I
> would find it more viable to have a "agent" application that could be
> integrated into pre-existing OS, to add compatibility. (although that 
> could
> also be a huge task technically, and politically also)
>
> When a BOSS requires its own Firmware for devices, it usually means that 
> the
>
> WISPs will now need two BOSS systems. One for their new proprietary 
> system,
> and one for all their other stuff. That means duplication of ALL costs.
> Labor, hardware, CC processing, learning curve, documentation, etc, etc. 
> So
> 

Re: [WISPA] Article

[Tom DeReggi]

What I'm having a hard time understanding is why we can't just have both?

I fully agree WISPs can;t rely on regulators, and we must survive by our own 
control.
But I see no reason that simultaneously we can;t also influence polititions 
for our mutual benefit.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article


> It's a long and quite off topic discussion to hash this out.
>
> But to suggest that "not trusting government" is the equivalent of being 
> an
> advocate to anarchy is absurd.
>
> The MOST corrupt and self serving institution in this country is Congress.
> After you've figured that out, it begins to make sense why our founding
> fathers said that "eternal vigilance is the price of liberty".It's 
> also
> the price of just continuing to exist.
>
> Nowhere, at no time have I advocated anarchy, or anything remotely similar
> to it.   But, that's the repeated meme, probably just to squelch the
> conversation.   But I have noticed a very serious trend.  It seems that
> people mistake a cordial working relationship with "security of ideas or
> status quo" in DC.   There's no such thing.   Assurances of future events 
> or
> favors or policies is absolutely NOT something you can put any faith in.
> Those change like the wind.   Those very people you think might be
> influenced to be on your side, are just as likely to write a rule and
> enforce it which kills the whole industry, if it can earn them a headline
> that makes them look good.
>
> Does that make them "evil".   No, it makes them politicians, operating in
> both a political culture and a society that has accepted this behavior as
> normal.
>
> To use this pollyanna type of attitude that does anything but recognize 
> the
> serious danger that government poses to the welfare of the people is to be
> foolish.   What may influence them today, can completely vanish with the
> headlines of tomorrow's newspaper, and efforts to influence policymakers 
> or
> work out some kind "tit for tat" or quid pro quo can vanish faster than 
> dry
> ice in a blast furnace.   We must never allow our future to be dependent
> upon the whims of regulators.
>
> What is needed, is to get in writing, to get codified, the means by which 
> we
> can exist unmolested, and then after that point, to then seek to convince
> them that certian policies can do good and others do not.   My complaint 
> is
> that I see nobody defending our ability to exist, while at the same time,
> trading on "goodwill" to get favors and money.   That's a terrible 
> mistake,
> in my estimation.  A fundamental and near fatal flaw which can do nothing
> but harm us in the long run.The attitudinal change in DC that's about 
> to
> occur, is that they not only have the right, but the OBLIGATION to choose
> who exists and who does not.   Who wins, who loses, and the primary
> motivation is now to take from industry to give to the people in exchange
> for votes.  If you don't think that can destroy us, I dunno what you think
> can.
>
> Seriously, every industry has descended on Washington DC with their 
> buckets
> in hand, lined up behind the spigots.  Our secret here, is not to be an
> "also ran" but stand out.  We don't need handouts.  We're citizens first,
> taxpayers second, and businesses third.  Be responsible adults, stand out
> like a beacon already.   Advocate for industry subsidy and whatnot to END.
> Be a voice of reason in today's mad rush to insanity...
>
> Please.
>
> Our nation's future depends on being men and women of character and
> integrity and being responsible, and differentiate ourselves from the big
> guys with  the big buckets demanding money.   Contrast us to them.  We 
> can.
> They can't.  Exploit their wanting money.   If there was EVER a time an
> industry could make an impact, by showing up and saying " We're here to
> build up the country, don't need subsidies and handouts, and these guys 
> are
> advocating for it, we are not, and don't think they should either", this 
> is
> it.  "We're here and doing what needs to be done.  We just need some 
> hurdles
> cleared" is far more a worthy goal, and likely to stand out, than to be
> centered in the policywonking that's aimed at "getting a slice of the 
> pie".
>
> Is this political?   I suppose it is in some way.  But no more or less 
> than
> the "argue a position to possibly benefit from loans and grants" that's 
> been
> repeated here.
>
> OH, but I forgot.  That's too extreme for "normal" people.
>
> Thank God those "extreme" people had some guts way back when.   I just 
> wish
> to honor them and the enduring ideas they left for us.   They're not out 
> of
> date yet.
>
> 
> 
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "'WISPA General List'" 
> Sent: Thursday, 

Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)

[Josh Luthman]

I'm not so sure I would go hunting down the Netflix users and tacking on
that fee, but it is an option...

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 1:33 AM, Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs <
[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> 208.111.168.0/24 belongs to limelight.  So far this is where all of the
> data traces go back to ..  FYI ;)
>
> One thing, this may start something, but, why not send customers a note
> with their next bill, netflix subscribers, due to the high usage netflix
> puts on the entire network, we will start charging for netflix usage.
> This will be 5.99 extra :)  or maybe more.  Easy enough to do.
>
> --
> * Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
> Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
> 314-735-0270
> http://www.linktechs.net 
>
> */ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training
> /*
>
>
>
> Travis Johnson wrote:
> > I'm not sure this fixes anything either. Even if you cap people at
> > 1Mbps, if they are watching a movie, they are using that 1Mbps for 2
> > hours constant. My cost on that 1Mbps is $40, the same price I am
> > selling the service to them for... yet I have all the overhead and
> > expenses to keep it running.
> >
> > I may have to buy a Netflix box or an Xbox-360 just to see what IP
> > blocks these devices are pulling from, then I will just start throttling
> > the entire netblock to each service... rather than trying to control
> > each customer. Allocate 5Mbps to all of Netflix's IP's on my network...
> > then if people want to get better streaming service, they can pay me to
> > un-throttle their connection. ;)
> >
> > Travis
> > Microserv
> >
> > Brian Webster wrote:
> >
> >> I like the idea Chuck and others have used in regards to shaping. Give
> them
> >> a wide open connection for a short burst of time and then throttle them
> back
> >> to what they are paying for (say a minute or so). This will give them
> >> awesome performance for things like web pages and speed tests and most
> >> email, yet when they decide to be hogs using technology that is a
> constant
> >> demand on the connection, it won't cripple your network. This in
> conjunction
> >> with bandwidth caps should keep you solvent until the backhaul
> >> infrastructure in the US gets more robust, more accessible, and cheaper.
> >> Until then you just need to tell the clients the basic economic truth of
> how
> >> much constant internet really costs. Comcast and others are starting to
> bit
> >> cap their services so they must be seeing the same things you are. Show
> the
> >> customers your bill for your backhaul and ask them if they would like to
> pay
> >> that each month. Even those on FIOS and other Fiber technologies see
> those
> >> realities once their internet destination goes outside the private fiber
> >> circuits. FIOS may be fast but it sure exposes the sites and locations
> that
> >> don't have huge pipes serving them.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Thank You,
> >> Brian Webster
> >>   -Original Message-
> >>   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ]On
> >> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
> >>   Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:15 PM
> >>   To: WISPA General List
> >>   Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)
> >>
> >>
> >>   Rick,
> >>
> >>   Just for what it's worth, we are seeing an increase in overall usage
> as
> >> well. We have been in the ISP business since 1994. It was only about a
> year
> >> ago that we went over 100Mbps of incoming traffic during peak time...
> and
> >> just today, we peaked at 176Mbps. So in a year's time we increased by
> 75%
> >> the amount of bandwidth usage by our customers. Of course we added new
> >> customers, etc. but that was at the same rate we have been adding
> customers
> >> for 5+ years.
> >>
> >>   Solution? There isn't a good one. I remember people saying things like
> "I
> >> just leave my customers wide open because then they will use what they
> need
> >> and then get off, so they are online less" and stuff like that. Those
> days
> >> are long gone. If you give people a 5Mbps connection, they will use
> 5Mbps.
> >> And now, rather than just doing what they were doing, they will just
> start
> >> more downloads or movies or TV because they can.
> >>
> >>   Travis
> >>   Microserv
> >>
> >>   RickG wrote:
> >> I have WRAP boards on all towers that provide limited bandwidth
> >> shaping. I just recently installed a Mikrotik firewall (and love it).
> >> It's shaping and rules cover all customers. As far as bandwidth hits,
> >> the previous owner oversold and overmarketed the amount of bandwidth
> >> in order to gain subscribers (i.e. premium 3Mbps accounts when he only
> >> had 3Mbps). Since bandwidth is very expensive 

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs]

You would think that this would bring down the risk factor. 

--
* Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
314-735-0270
http://www.linktechs.net 

*/ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training 
/*



Tom DeReggi wrote:
> I don't question the value of Leasing for a second. I just think that it is 
> to hard to get Leasing.
> WISPs should not be considered any more HIGH risk than any other business. 
> In today's economy WISPs are doing better than many other industries, and 
> the demand is still growing daily.
>
> Tom DeReggi
> RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
> IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband
>
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:36 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>
>
>   
>> Hi,
>>
>> Yes, you still have to pay for it... but instead of being upside down
>> with the customer for the first 3-6 months (depending on equipment), you
>> begin making money on that customer from day 1. So you no longer worry
>> about "do I have enough money to buy the equipment to install that
>> customer" and instead can focus on "get as many customers installed as
>> quickly as possible".
>>
>> Also, by buying 250 units at a time, you get a much better price on the
>> equipment... which sometimes can even out the extra you pay by financing.
>>
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>
>> Steve Barnes wrote:
>> 
>>> I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
>>> the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
>>> still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
>>> takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
>>> Can you help me with that one.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install
>>> fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" on
>>> every new customer.
>>>
>>> Travis
>>> Microserv
>>>
>>> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>>>
>>> You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000
>>> subscribers
>>> things will be a bit better.
>>>
>>> - Original Message - 
>>> From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>>> 
>>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
>>> Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth
>>> different
>>> WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
>>> equipment
>>> that is so often discussed on this list.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch
>>> each
>>> penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to
>>> service the
>>> clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other
>>> that
>>> what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8
>>> towers with
>>> 320 clients.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a
>>> $59.99 Pro
>>> Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn
>>> off the
>>> speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M
>>> on any
>>> of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS
>>> Full
>>> Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost
>>> of with
>>> another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to
>>> achieve
>>> 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.
>>> What do
>>> you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have
>>> started you
>>> service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have
>>> and I
>>> know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in
>>> the same
>>> boat.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND
>>> definition
>>> without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is
>>> everyone
>>> charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing
>>> is not
>>> readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.
>>> No
>>> Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
>>> Verizon.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve Barnes
>>>
>>> RC-WiFi.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>>
>>> 

Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)

[Dennis Burgess - LinkTechs]

208.111.168.0/24 belongs to limelight.  So far this is where all of the 
data traces go back to ..  FYI ;) 

One thing, this may start something, but, why not send customers a note 
with their next bill, netflix subscribers, due to the high usage netflix 
puts on the entire network, we will start charging for netflix usage.  
This will be 5.99 extra :)  or maybe more.  Easy enough to do. 

--
* Dennis Burgess, CCNA, A+, Mikrotik Certified Trainer
Link Technologies, Inc -- Mikrotik & WISP Support Services*
314-735-0270
http://www.linktechs.net 

*/ Link Technologies, Inc is offering LIVE Mikrotik On-Line Training 
/*



Travis Johnson wrote:
> I'm not sure this fixes anything either. Even if you cap people at 
> 1Mbps, if they are watching a movie, they are using that 1Mbps for 2 
> hours constant. My cost on that 1Mbps is $40, the same price I am 
> selling the service to them for... yet I have all the overhead and 
> expenses to keep it running.
>
> I may have to buy a Netflix box or an Xbox-360 just to see what IP 
> blocks these devices are pulling from, then I will just start throttling 
> the entire netblock to each service... rather than trying to control 
> each customer. Allocate 5Mbps to all of Netflix's IP's on my network... 
> then if people want to get better streaming service, they can pay me to 
> un-throttle their connection. ;)
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Brian Webster wrote:
>   
>> I like the idea Chuck and others have used in regards to shaping. Give them
>> a wide open connection for a short burst of time and then throttle them back
>> to what they are paying for (say a minute or so). This will give them
>> awesome performance for things like web pages and speed tests and most
>> email, yet when they decide to be hogs using technology that is a constant
>> demand on the connection, it won't cripple your network. This in conjunction
>> with bandwidth caps should keep you solvent until the backhaul
>> infrastructure in the US gets more robust, more accessible, and cheaper.
>> Until then you just need to tell the clients the basic economic truth of how
>> much constant internet really costs. Comcast and others are starting to bit
>> cap their services so they must be seeing the same things you are. Show the
>> customers your bill for your backhaul and ask them if they would like to pay
>> that each month. Even those on FIOS and other Fiber technologies see those
>> realities once their internet destination goes outside the private fiber
>> circuits. FIOS may be fast but it sure exposes the sites and locations that
>> don't have huge pipes serving them.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank You,
>> Brian Webster
>>   -Original Message-
>>   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>>   Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:15 PM
>>   To: WISPA General List
>>   Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)
>>
>>
>>   Rick,
>>
>>   Just for what it's worth, we are seeing an increase in overall usage as
>> well. We have been in the ISP business since 1994. It was only about a year
>> ago that we went over 100Mbps of incoming traffic during peak time... and
>> just today, we peaked at 176Mbps. So in a year's time we increased by 75%
>> the amount of bandwidth usage by our customers. Of course we added new
>> customers, etc. but that was at the same rate we have been adding customers
>> for 5+ years.
>>
>>   Solution? There isn't a good one. I remember people saying things like "I
>> just leave my customers wide open because then they will use what they need
>> and then get off, so they are online less" and stuff like that. Those days
>> are long gone. If you give people a 5Mbps connection, they will use 5Mbps.
>> And now, rather than just doing what they were doing, they will just start
>> more downloads or movies or TV because they can.
>>
>>   Travis
>>   Microserv
>>
>>   RickG wrote:
>> I have WRAP boards on all towers that provide limited bandwidth
>> shaping. I just recently installed a Mikrotik firewall (and love it).
>> It's shaping and rules cover all customers. As far as bandwidth hits,
>> the previous owner oversold and overmarketed the amount of bandwidth
>> in order to gain subscribers (i.e. premium 3Mbps accounts when he only
>> had 3Mbps). Since bandwidth is very expensive and difficult to get
>> here, this has led to a sluggish network that I am having difficulty
>> resolving. Therefore, the customers have been complaining. The good
>> news is that after getting very creative, I have overturned some new
>> options but the cost is still a strain on the budget. My biggest
>> frustration is the never ending question: What will it take? It
>> appears that more and more people want constant multi-megabit speeds
>> on demand for less than $50/month. The oversubscription rate on a
>> $600/month T1 no longer provides for a valid business model. Heck, my
>> $

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[Tom DeReggi]

I don't question the value of Leasing for a second. I just think that it is 
to hard to get Leasing.
WISPs should not be considered any more HIGH risk than any other business. 
In today's economy WISPs are doing better than many other industries, and 
the demand is still growing daily.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Travis Johnson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


> Hi,
>
> Yes, you still have to pay for it... but instead of being upside down
> with the customer for the first 3-6 months (depending on equipment), you
> begin making money on that customer from day 1. So you no longer worry
> about "do I have enough money to buy the equipment to install that
> customer" and instead can focus on "get as many customers installed as
> quickly as possible".
>
> Also, by buying 250 units at a time, you get a much better price on the
> equipment... which sometimes can even out the extra you pay by financing.
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Steve Barnes wrote:
>> I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
>> the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
>> still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
>> takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
>> Can you help me with that one.
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>
>>
>>
>> Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install
>> fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" on
>> every new customer.
>>
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>
>> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>>
>> You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000
>> subscribers
>> things will be a bit better.
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> 
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
>> Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth
>> different
>> WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
>> equipment
>> that is so often discussed on this list.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch
>> each
>> penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to
>> service the
>> clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other
>> that
>> what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8
>> towers with
>> 320 clients.
>>
>>
>>
>> The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a
>> $59.99 Pro
>> Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn
>> off the
>> speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M
>> on any
>> of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS
>> Full
>> Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost
>> of with
>> another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to
>> achieve
>> 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
>>
>>
>>
>> Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.
>> What do
>> you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have
>> started you
>> service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have
>> and I
>> know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in
>> the same
>> boat.
>>
>>
>>
>> So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND
>> definition
>> without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is
>> everyone
>> charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing
>> is not
>> readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.
>> No
>> Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
>> Verizon.
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve Barnes
>>
>> RC-WiFi.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>> 
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> 
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>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>> 
>>
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>>
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>>
>> Archiv

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[Tom DeReggi]

> the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason

Canopy makes a real nice platform now, and some large companies may use 
Canopy..  But that comment is in no way true.

I can name just as many large companies that deploy, Trango, Alvarion, 
StarOS, etc.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:47 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


> Steve,
>
> I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company we
> are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our
> success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP.  He wrote an article here
> about leasing that might change your mind.  http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx
>
> Basically look at it this way.  If you lease your equipment, it allows you
> to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your
> revenue.  You end up paying more in the long run because of the interest,
> but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your vendor
> instead of individual or 5 packs.  Todd probably explains it better in the
> article.
>
> Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP 
> can
> replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment
> related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an 802.11a/b/g
> solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on
> KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast.  We 
> had
> many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful
> without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP.  Our
> WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit the
> limitations of the KarlNet system.  My experiences with a Tranzeo network 
> in
> 2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much (its
> all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it).  So
> while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and start
> over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason.
>
> My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't worth
> much anymore)
>
> Daniel White
> 3-dB Networks
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Steve Barnes
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>
>> I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
>> the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
>> still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
>> takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
>> Can you help me with that one.
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>
>>
>>
>> Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install
>> fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" on
>> every new customer.
>>
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>
>> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>>
>> You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000
>> subscribers
>> things will be a bit better.
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> 
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
>> Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth
>> different
>> WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
>> equipment
>> that is so often discussed on this list.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch
>> each
>> penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to
>> service the
>> clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other
>> that
>> what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8
>> towers with
>> 320 clients.
>>
>>
>>
>> The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a
>> $59.99 Pro
>> Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn
>> off the
>> speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M
>> on any
>> of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS
>> Full
>> Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost
>> of with
>> another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to
>> achieve
>> 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
>>
>>
>>
>> Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.
>> What do
>> you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have
>>

Re: [WISPA] Article

[Butch Evans]

On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, Mike Hammett wrote:

>sheep are the worst thing to be.

Worse than cows?  Sheep get shorn, but cows get their heads bashed 
in an put on buns.  I'd rather be a sheep than a cow.  Or  worse, 
yet, a spider.  NOBODY likes them.

-- 

* Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/   * Wired or Wireless Networks   *




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Re: [WISPA] Need 12->24 constant volt converter ASAP

[D. Ryan Spott]

Backwoods solar might have what you need.

ryan

-Original Message-
From: Randy Cosby <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 10:01 PM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] Need 12->24 constant volt converter ASAP

I have an immediate need for a 12-24v DC converter, about 3 amps or 
better rating.  I'm collocated at a solar-powered site (not my own) 
where the batteries (golf cart) float around 12 v instead of the typical 
13.6v (actually banks of 2 6v batteries), but are occasionally going 
lower and hitting around 11v.  The converter I have right now has an 11v 
cutoff, so when the voltage drops to 11v, the converter shuts off and I 
just get 11v passed through instead of 24v.  Some of my equipment can 
handle the lower voltage, some can't.

I've ordered a new unit that has a 7.5v cutoff, but the company is way 
behind on production and I have no ETA on arrival.  Currently using 
Solar Converters model number cv 12/24-5 r24

Thanks for any help you can offer.

-- 
Randy Cosby
Vice President
InfoWest, Inc

office: 435-773-6071





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Re: [WISPA] Article

[Tom DeReggi]

Money from DC is just as green as money from anywhere else.
Allthough the Red Tape, might hide that fact. The answer is to get rid of 
the red tape, not the green money.

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 2:14 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article


>
> 
> 
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 6:19 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>
>
>> Mark,
>>
>> Comments inline:
>>
>>>
>>> To chop our noses off for the chance to wallow at the DC trough?
>>> Please.
>>
>> I just looked in the mirror, my nose is still intact!  I didn't even OINK
>> today. :)
>
> LOL!  good for you :)
>
>>
>>>
>>> It would be far more in our favor if we could get better tax treatment 
>>> on
>>> capital investment, if there were easier rules to deal with trading
>>> shares
>>> of our companies to investors, if we had gaurantees that we would not be
>>> mandated to do anything expensive, so we could have some kind of
>>> confidence
>>> in our business models...
>>
>> Actually, tax incentives were a major discussion point for operators who
>> make investment in broadband networks.  I'll take the rest of this
>> paragraph
>> to heart as I proceed wallowing in the trough.
>>
>>>
>>> Those are FAR more conducive to the success of all of us, than to put a
>>> majority of us outside the standard of 'broadband' in return for a
>>> handful
>>> sucking at the taxpayer teat in DC - We're all taxpayers, get off my 
>>> back
>>> already!
>>
>> Boosting the statistical average speed of broadband in the US will 
>> benefit
>> the whole economy.
>
> What is this canard?   Where did it come from?   Seriously,  I could never
> put my name behind this statement.   It just doesn't pass the sniff  test,
> and the law of unintended consequences probably produces more negative
> results than positive.   I would say that WIDER adoption of broadband,
> specifically geographically, with better pricing and less bundling would 
> be
> more consumer beneficial than just upping the speed.   it's like buying a
> Neon SRT 4 vs a standard Neon.   Yeah, it's faster, but 98.8% of the time,
> you're not going to benefit from the capability.
>
> With the majority of the population living in
>> metropolitan areas, I would see the bar being raised in these areas much
>> sooner than it will affect rural areas.  That being said, I will be
>> seeking
>> funding for new research for faster wireless technologies to assist WISPs
>> in
>> achieving the highest speeds possible.  I believe there will be a
>> multiplier
>> affect of dollars invested in broadband infrastructure.  Enabling
>> businesses
>> and people to be more efficient will definitely boost the economy more
>> than
>> giving tax rebate checks back as part of an economic stimulus plan.  The
>> group reached a solid consensus that investing in broadband 
>> infrastructure
>> would be one of the wisest uses of tight capital as it would create
>> revenue
>> in multiples of the original investment in all industry sectors.
>
> I agree with you in principle.   I would say that if it included dollars
> from DC, that your statement is both wrong and the action totally
> counterproductive.
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>
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>
>
> -- 
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG.
> Version: 7.5.552 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1826 - Release Date: 12/3/2008 
> 9:34 AM
>
> 




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Re: [WISPA] Article

[Tom DeReggi]

Mark,

Many of the points that you made were good points. However

I agree that the game needs to change, if WISPs plan to benefit from it.
But I don't think the answer is to be the Lone Ranger and push away 
potential government help, and leave it for competitors to go after.

The largest thing I seek in NBP is Tax credits for those that have invested 
in wireless, that had much economic develoment value to the areas it was 
served.. I have a lot of animosity that I have spent more money on 
"broadband" to the needy in my County, than my County has. (PS. I live in 
one of the top 10 riches counties of America)  If I got rich doing it I 
wouldn't care, but I don't. But the county is getting rich off all the new 
revenue that is taxed, becaues the businesses that I serve now have 
broadband to conduct business and be more efficient.

The second thing I seek is very small business loans and guarantee programs 
(and matching fund grants) for people that have invested in economic 
development  broadband products. I believe its the Government responsibilty 
to help make sure I succeed, for the good of the people that benefit from 
the services. Think about the value.  Lets use an example of 300 business 
subs. Let say each office has say 10 employees.  (3000 people served ). Now 
lets say each one of them makes $20 per hour. Thats $60,000 /hour to pay 
that labor. Now lets say my clients rely on Broadband to do their jobs. Now 
lets hypothetically think about the cost to regional businesses that I serve 
IF my network goes down for 1 hour. Thats right, business's in my County 
will lose $60,000 of productivity per hour that my network is down. Now lets 
think about if I go down for 1 week.  The math says there would be 
approximately $10 million dollars of lost productivity if I shut my network 
down for a week.  That is calculated based on the labor cost, not the labor 
retail rate. Do the math if someone values their tiem at $100/hour.  What 
I'm getting at is that Broadband is worth way more than $39/month per 
subscriber. At that rate, a week of service to 300 people comes out to 
provider revenue of only $2,925.  A PRovider is paid only $2925 for 
something worth over $10 million dollars to the businesses that it serves. 
That is an outrage. ISPs should be able to charge more. But we can't!!! 
Monopoly providers make it up in volume and cross subsidize to drive the 
price down to $39/month!!!  These MOnoploy providers responsible for driving 
the price down refuse to serve the many underserved people that WISP end up 
being the only people willing to serve.  So is it OK for WISPS to just 
say Oh well, I'll loose my ROI and Investment when times et tight, and 
the monopoly providers decide to eventually serve. (like they say... where 
ever wireless goes, DSL follows. They'll eventually serve).  My point is 
WISPs solve a valuable purpose to the County and the economy, we should be 
thanked and rewarded.
Asking for that does NOT mean I'm asking for hand outs for inefficient 
companies. What I'm asking for is some help, that is well deserved.  What 
I'm saying is that providers might not survive without help. And if WISP 
providers don;t survive consumers will loose, and so will the County's Tax 
revenues.  Its to there best interest to help us.

The problem WISPS are to small to qualify for most funding and grant 
options. It shouldn't be that way.

I believe that if we lobby, we should be able to get relief for very small 
business providers. There should be lots of programs for loans and grants 
not to exceed $50,000 or that to qualify one must not be over a certain size 
(maybe $1-5million a year in revenue?)  At minmium, the SBA should have 
better loan guarantee programs for WISPs that really don;t have the strict 
qualificatiosn that they normally require.  It really bothers me that 
goliath companies can get 4% interest loans from SBA, but small WISP who 
invested their life savings in their business, can't get credit for the 
value of their network and investment in it, to secure loans to expand it, 
because they are not considered credit worthy to traditional standards.

I do not believe it is the Banker's problem to solve this. Banks have no 
economic advantage to our success, like the government does. Banks are in it 
for the profit and have the right to reduce risk. But the government does 
have interests at stake. They should be investing in the businesses of their 
community.

I can give you a win on the arguement that it might not be beneficial to 
raise the speed definition of broadband. But I will not agree that its a bad 
idea to try and encourage teh government to help small WISP providers 
financially, in a way that it is easy to get.  Being involved in groups like 
NBS will help lobby for the support small WISPs need, via grants, loans, tax 
incentives.  Being open to the NBSCoalition's goal to want to increase speed 
efinition of Broadband is a small compromise.

For example

Re: [WISPA] Need 12->24 constant volt converter ASAP

[reader]

You need more power...  those batteries are too discharged.

But, the dc to dc converter...  try jameco or Mouser.

Be prepared for sticker shock :(





- Original Message - 
From: "Randy Cosby" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 10:01 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Need 12->24 constant volt converter ASAP


>I have an immediate need for a 12-24v DC converter, about 3 amps or
> better rating.  I'm collocated at a solar-powered site (not my own)
> where the batteries (golf cart) float around 12 v instead of the typical
> 13.6v (actually banks of 2 6v batteries), but are occasionally going
> lower and hitting around 11v.  The converter I have right now has an 11v
> cutoff, so when the voltage drops to 11v, the converter shuts off and I
> just get 11v passed through instead of 24v.  Some of my equipment can
> handle the lower voltage, some can't.
>
> I've ordered a new unit that has a 7.5v cutoff, but the company is way
> behind on production and I have no ETA on arrival.  Currently using
> Solar Converters model number cv 12/24-5 r24
>
> Thanks for any help you can offer.
>
> -- 
> Randy Cosby
> Vice President
> InfoWest, Inc
>
> office: 435-773-6071
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
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Re: [WISPA] Billing and process management system

[tonylist]

I debated on whether to put this out there but since Tim did what the heck
:) Demarc has been working on something like this for the past few months
and will soon have a demo site up for people to take a look at our offer.
But to give you the basis:
- Our solutions will have about 95% of what both PowerCode and Avansu are
offering out of the box and 100% soon after.
- We already have our AP and CPE code ported to IXP425 and Atheros SoC
boards and plan on supporting what WISP use in the market place.
- Once the product is announced we are going to be adding feature support
based on customer feedback in a major way, as long as we get a good amount
of feedback about a feature its going in :)
- We will be adding support for all the major AP software like Star-OS and
MT via what every interface they allow so WISP do not need to change our any
existing hardware.
- Because we will control all the software and firmware we will be adding
many special features that one could only do with this type of control, more
on this later :) 
- We will have many models to work with any WISP setup, from the basic where
we host the system on our double redundant servers to an onsite install of
the code. 
- Now for the fun part this will be a no cost system for all Demarc hardware
customers! Yes its 100% free ;) Any hardware that is not Demarc will have
licensing, which is yet to be setup, but to be sure it will be very
reasonable.

With this all said, I am looking for any feedback from WISPA and their
members on what they are looking for. Also so you all understand this
project was started with Whitespace solutions in mind and what it's going to
need to develop a product line, no more can end WISP create a design and use
it like they did with 2.4Ghz.


Sincerely, Tony Morella
Demarc Technology Group, A Wireless Solution Provider
Office: 207-667-7583 Fax: 207-433-1008
http://www.demarctech.com 


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Tom DeReggi
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:27 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Billing and process management system

Tim,

Now that you have made your shameless self promotion sales pitch :-)  I 
thought I'd scrutinize your comments, palying devils advocate :-)

I have not looked at your BOSS software or Firmwre, so I am asking blind at 
this point. But I am interested in your perspective, since you are 
interested in WISP markets.

> AP and CPE devices will need to use our firmware but
> once installed can be managed from anywhere. We currently have our 
> firmware
> ported to half a dozen devices and we're working on adding more ports all
> the time.

The above was the key comment that got my attention, and how that would 
reflect the reality of what could be a viable target market..

Is it really realistic to "use a BOSS provider's Firmware on APs and CPEs"? 
Come on WISPs have graduated basic Wifi APs and CPEs. It has taken 
almost a decade for the Firmware leaders of today to develop feature rich 
products that WISPs can actually count on working well enough for commercial

deployment. (examples... Mikrotik, StarOS, Ligowave, etc).
Why would a WISP risk a tried and true solution to convert to something new,

just for integration into a BOSS system? Could they risk that?  Thats like 
going to a CLEC provider and saying... "We have this new BOSS system, would 
you mind just throwing away all your CISCOs.".  Generally what WISPs would 
want more is a BOSS system that could integrate will all their pre-eixsting 
diverse product lines. As a WISP, we all know there are a lot of tools in 
the toolbox, and there is the right tool for each type of job. Even the 
WISPs most religious to staying true to one brand have branched out to use 
many different product lines, because technical reasons and differences in 
their technology forced them to, if they wanted to stay competitive.  I 
would find it more viable to have a "agent" application that could be 
integrated into pre-existing OS, to add compatibility. (although that could 
also be a huge task technically, and politically also)

When a BOSS requires its own Firmware for devices, it usually means that the

WISPs will now need two BOSS systems. One for their new proprietary system, 
and one for all their other stuff. That means duplication of ALL costs. 
Labor, hardware, CC processing, learning curve, documentation, etc, etc. So 
teh service subscribption could no longer be justified as a time saver, as 
it would be yet another application "added" to the list to manage.  Also 
note a platform change is not jsut a technology change, it is also a process

change.

Do not misunderstand me, I am NOT Bashing your product. I'm just sharing the

first thoughts that came to my mind, when I don't yet understand your 
product, and it would potentually be a thought likely to cross other WISP's 
minds.

How do you feel your product, will or could fit into an existing WI

Re: [WISPA] Article

[Mac Dearman]

Why don't y'all put the correct SUBJECT line (BS) in place on this piece of
$*it thread or take it off list?

All of you ought to be ashamed for feeding trolls - - hehehehehe





Mac




> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Rick Harnish
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:40 PM
> To: 'WISPA General List'
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
> 
> Mark,
> 
> I would like you to further elaborate on the following comment for
> those who
> don't remember or those who were not on the list at the time.  Please
> include the specific examples of this accusation so this person can
> defend
> what they said "in context".  If that person is me, then I will clarify
> my
> position to the best of my ability.
> 
> "I'm just recalling a specific thread on this list that's now 2 or 3
> years
> old, about how this industry will be much better and more representable
> in
> Washington when it is "mature" and not a whole lot of smaller players.
> Someone who is influential in WISPA was the source of this attitude,
> too.
> 
> This particular person seemed to be embarrassed to consider
> representing
> this industry as having mom and pop type members."
> 
> Respectfully,
> Rick Harnish
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:20 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
> 
> 
> > On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> >>And I won't be.  I was once and put money into WISPA.  When I think
> >>WISPA has the interests of all WISPS in mind when they act, then
> >>I'll financially support it.  When WISPA goes to washington DC and
> >>represents to them, that we actually WANT to be regulated, I cannot
> >
> > When did this ever happen?
> 
> It did.  Long ago.   I supported WISPA until someone spilled the beans.
> 
> >
> > There are some regulations that are good for WISPs.  Just ONE HUGE
> > example are the regulations that govern the FREE use of spectrum
> > under the Part-15 rules.  It's funny that I've never heard you go
> > off the deep end about THOSE regulations.  Either way, that is one
> > example of a good regulation.
> 
> Hmmm... Allowing the people to use a public commodity.  Wow.  I feel so
> privileged.  NOT!  No, the knotheads in DC OWE US THE USE OF IT.
> 
> Wow, what a strange concept.   When did we forget, we're the boss and
> the
> owners, they're the designated stewards?
> 
> >
> > In terms of specific impact that WISPA has had that benefits ALL
> > wisp operators (even those like you that don't like regulation)
> > there are 2 MAJOR examples that I will suggest.  You are probably
> > the only one "in the room" who will not like them, but then I
> > suspect you are often in that situation.  The first example is the
> > most recent HUGE WIN for WISPs in the TVWS debates.  I don't know if
> > you noticed, but in the R&O, do a search for "WISPA" and then do a
> > search for "GOOGLE".  You'll quickly see that just based on the
> > number of "mentions" that WISPA had a HUGE impact on the ruling.
> > That spectrum is free for you to use UNLICENSED (NOT UNREGULATED),
> > even if you don't support WISPA.  Another example is CALEA.  I know
> > that in YOUR world, CALEA isn't something that you have to comply
> > with, but the rest of us that live in a world shared by ~300Million
> > other Americans, we DO have to comply.  WISPA could have gone to DC
> > and said "this isn't fair", but it would NOT have changed the law.
> > Moving beyond that, we have developed a REAL solution that is very
> > affordable for ANYONE to follow.  There is currently no software
> > supporting it, but that is under development and will surface in the
> > near future.
> 
> Wow.   Effective and reasonable ideas could have been dreamed up and
> proposed and made into law by now.  But nope, we're still determined
> that
> pounding a square peg into a round hole "just has to be".
> 
> >
> > One of the reasons WISPA doesn't take the approaches you suggest is
> > that your ideas are SO far out of line with reality that there is no
> > way to meet you on common ground.  Perhaps the muddy frogs can, but
> > real people cannot.
> 
> Why, Thanks  Butch.   I feel ever so much better now.
> 
> >
> >>When the attitude that "consolidation and shaking out the smaller
> >>players" is a good thing goes away, then there's on more barrier
> >>down.  It may not be
> >
> > What's bad about building and selling?  You don't like money either?
> 
> Hmmm...  words have a specific meaning, I said precisely what I meant.
> When the attitude that the smaller players need to go away is shaken
> out of
> WISPA, that will be a good thing.
> 
> >
> >>Sorry, you l

[WISPA] Need 12->24 constant volt converter ASAP

[Randy Cosby]

I have an immediate need for a 12-24v DC converter, about 3 amps or 
better rating.  I'm collocated at a solar-powered site (not my own) 
where the batteries (golf cart) float around 12 v instead of the typical 
13.6v (actually banks of 2 6v batteries), but are occasionally going 
lower and hitting around 11v.  The converter I have right now has an 11v 
cutoff, so when the voltage drops to 11v, the converter shuts off and I 
just get 11v passed through instead of 24v.  Some of my equipment can 
handle the lower voltage, some can't.

I've ordered a new unit that has a 7.5v cutoff, but the company is way 
behind on production and I have no ETA on arrival.  Currently using 
Solar Converters model number cv 12/24-5 r24

Thanks for any help you can offer.

-- 
Randy Cosby
Vice President
InfoWest, Inc

office: 435-773-6071





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Re: [WISPA] Article

[Mike Hammett]

I'm not saying we should do what Mark says, I'm not even saying Mark is 
right (nor am I saying the opposites), but it's a good thing we have 
differing views.  Whether we're sheep for DC or sheep against DC, sheep for 
Mt. Dew or sheep against Mt. Dew, sheep are the worst thing to be. 
Differing products, thoughts, opinions helps to breed a new generation of 
better products, thoughts, opinions.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:56 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article

> LOL  Yeah.
>
> It's much easier to whine than it is to join and help improve things eh?
>
> Mark, you still fail to grasp the difference between working to change the
> rules while living within the ones that exist.
>
> marlon
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Bob Moldashel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:38 AM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>
>
>> Wow...OK   Who peed in the Muddy Water and hit the Frog?
>>
>> Sheesh...
>>
>> -B-
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>> And I won't be.   I was once and put money into WISPA.When I think
>>> WISPA
>>> has the interests of all WISPS in mind when they act, then I'll
>>> financially
>>> support it.   When WISPA goes to washington DC and represents to them,
>>> that
>>> we actually WANT to be regulated, I cannot support them.   When WISPA
>>> consistently fights FOR all of us, and not just the narrow interests of
>>> those who want federal money or whatever, then I may again support WISPA
>>> financially.
>>>
>>> When the attitude that "consolidation and shaking out the smaller
>>> players"
>>> is a good thing goes away, then there's on more barrier down.  It may 
>>> not
>>> be
>>> official, but people who make decisions in WISPA have said that in the
>>> past.
>>> Sorry, you lost me with that one.  Small business and "mom and pop" are
>>> the
>>> backbone of our economy and make up a huge segment of all the jobs in 
>>> the
>>> whole country.
>>>
>>> Every other industry organization unabashedly opposes everything that
>>> costs
>>> them or can harm them, but the leadership continues to insist that
>>> somehow
>>> playing nice and agreeing to mandates and costs will buy us favor...
>>> All
>>> that happens is the mandates and agreements happen, the regulators 
>>> change
>>> and all the "goodwill" supposedly bought evaportes, with the precedents
>>> and
>>> whatnot remain.  Until they understand that Washington DC is NEVER our
>>> friend, never to be trusted, then we're just sheep waiting to get shorn.
>>>
>>> Until this fundamental approach changes, no way in good conscience can I
>>> put
>>> my name on what they do or give them money.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sorry, that's just my opinion and it's not subject to "revision and
>>> extension".
>>>
>>> This same attitude is going on still.   WISPA leadership is still 
>>> talking
>>> about trying to out maneuver the big boys so as to make grants and loans
>>> available.   Cripes.  Yeah, like we're ever going to win the arm 
>>> twisting
>>> contest to bend it in our direction?   We don't collectively have that
>>> much
>>> money or lobbyists tin DC to get our names to the top of the rolodexes.
>>> We
>>> cannot win that fight with those rules.
>>>
>>> We have got to start selling the value of a thriving and diverse 
>>> industry
>>> that exists solely due to lack of regulation and lack of governmental
>>> interference and that the big players cannot play our game effectively
>>> and
>>> that betting on the big guys is like buying Enron or Lehman stock.   We
>>> will
>>> never be the providers to the masses, but there can never be affordable
>>> ubiquitous broadband without us.
>>>
>>> That might take some thought and creativity to compose the narration and
>>> it
>>> might take some skill to sell, but there's simply no rebuttal from
>>> Verizon
>>> that FIOS is ever going to make a lick of sense in a wide array of
>>> places.
>>> Or that in an era when Congress really, REALLY needs to get their fiscal
>>> act
>>> in order, that blowing vast sums to reach few people makes sense.
>>>
>>> It has to be about selling the value of who and what you are and why you
>>> are, not out muscling the big guys for a slice of pie.   That can't be
>>> won.
>>> Further, it obliterations the differences between us and them.   That
>>> DIFFERENCE is our strength, not our weakness.  If you're not thinking in
>>> those terms, then some re-thinking needs to happen.
>>>
>>> What will attract membership is a consistent, clear message about how we
>>> have and are building a thriving and healthy industry, even in these
>>> economic times, due to the fact that WE ARE NOT THEM and then selling
>>> exactly who we are.   The people coming back form DC need to talking
>>> about
>>> how they sold us so well that when w

Re: [WISPA] Article

[Mike Hammett]

Mark does make valid points (not all), but they're often clouded by things 
other people don't want to listen to.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com




From: Jack Unger 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:55 PM
To: WISPA General List 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article


Jeff, 

I commend you for urging us to keep an open mind and keep open to a wide range 
of opinions. I also agree that we should listen to the opinions of all WISPs, 
including current non-WISPA members. Unfortunately Mxxx's normal tone is so 
negative and so self-righteous and so arrogant that it turns me OFF therefore I 
tend to skip over his posts without reading them. 

I want to try to be open to all the opinions of WISPs who are capable of 
forming reasoned opinions but unfortunately there a very few people who are so 
self-centered that they are often incapable of expressing opinions that are 
useful to anyone except themselves. My time is limited and I want to spend it 
in the most productive way possible. 

jack 


Jeff Broadwick wrote: 
I'll disagree with you to a point Butch.  WISPA represents all WISPs
generally and it's members specifically.  I don't agree with a lot that Mark
writes, but he's consistent and he challenges the thought process.  His
opinions should not be weighted more than a member WISP, but listening to
him may help sharpen our message and to appeal to those who don't generally
join organizations like WISPA. 

Regards,

Jeff

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:45 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article

On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, Tom DeReggi wrote:

  I am open to feedback from you, on what your opinions are, so we can 
decide on a WISPA policy for those questions.

Tom, don't get caught up in arguments with him.  He is not a WISPA member
(unless that's changed) and as such, his opinion is NOT valid in shaping
WISPA policy.  That is a member's right, not his.

--

* Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/   * Wired or Wireless Networks   *





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-- 
Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993
Cisco Press Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
WISPs - Do you know where your customers are?
For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping
FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile 
Phone 818-227-4220  Email <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>










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Re: [WISPA] Article

[Mike Hammett]

I thought we all understood subtraction.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com




From: Jack Unger 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:40 PM
To: WISPA General List 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article


What I'm trying to say is that an AP that is capable of 20 Mb when there is 
only one customer must share that same 20 Mb between ALL the customers once 
more than one customer is connected to it. If one user draws 5 Mb continually 
then only 15 Mb remain to be shared with and between all the remaining 
customers. If a second user now draws 5 Mb continually then only 10 Mb remains 
to be shared by all the other customers. If four customers are each drawing 5 
Mb continually then there is NO remaining throughput for any of the remaining 
customers. 


Mike Hammett wrote: 
I do understand how it works.  I also understand (not sure if this is what 
you're getting at) that an AP capable of 20 megabits to a single person may 
not be capable of an aggregate of 20 megabits to 30 people.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:41 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article

  Dear Mike,

You miss the point and possibly so does Josh. Because an AP can deliver
"x" amount of throughput during a speed test between two location does
not mean that the same AP can deliver that amount of throughput to all
the customers simultaneously. The AP's throughput is shared between all
of the end-users. When the AP maxes out, some (possibly all) of those
end-users must slow down. Some WISPs do not understand this and thus
they end up over-promising throughput and disappointing their customers.
WISPs need to understand this or they will fail in this business and
give other WISPs a black eye in the process. Nobody is getting beat up
here; this has nothing to do with personalities. It has everything to do
with the physics of data communications behavior. Everybody needs to
understand the true limits of their system.

Why is this? Because the "air" is a shared medium. Throughput delivery
takes real-world time in intervals we call "time-slots". You can only
carry so much throughput during one time-slot. There area only so many
time-slots (fractions of a second) in each second. This is why
throughput is limited. Only so many users can be on one AP at the same
time if they are requesting a large amount of the available AP
throughput. A lightly-loaded system may appear to be able to deliver max
throughput simultaneously to those few customers but when the AP is
heavily loaded with users who are vying for a lot of throughput
simultaneously then most of them will need to slow down because not
everyone will get all the time slots they need to carry the high
throughput (ex: video streaming) levels that they are requesting.

Don't make this personal; that simply detracts from the very real
technical limits that a successful WISP must understand in order to
succeed and survive.

jack


Mike Hammett wrote:
I didn't get that at all.

It seems as though when anyone on this list suggests going faster than 2 
megabits, they get beat up.  Sorry, Charlie, BA-II was outdated long ago.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com




From: Jack Unger
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 6:55 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article


So how many of your customers can you serve 26 Mb to SIMULTANEOUSLY from 
the same AP? It sounds like you are saying that you can serve all of them 
26 Mb simultaneously.

Josh Luthman wrote:
Each customer has an MT - capable of 26mbps to their home.  Each tower 
has a
Redline to it, throughput as high as the key purchased (54 megs).

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand Wireless are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Jack Unger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  Josh Luthman wrote:

My 5.8 customers can do 10+ megs...

The estimated throughput on the MTs is 30 to 31 megs.  Real bandwidth 
tests
show 26 megs.


 So do you deploy one MT for each customer or do you share that 26 Mb
between all of your customers on that one access point?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand Wireless are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:40 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



 And which telco is this going to bail out?Money from Congress to
industry = pay off Unions for votes.

We will never, ever, ever, ever qualify.

Another headliner article I read on this will redefine "broadband" as 
over
10 Meg.

Nothing like disqualifying almost the entire WISP industry...







- Origi

Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)

[Josh Luthman]

Forgot to mention this - this is crucial.

In Wireless ISP LLC's case, they sell 2 megs, 5 megs and 10 megs.

There is no point allowing a customer to burst to >2 megs when they pay for
2 megs.  This gives them no reason to upgrade to the 5 or 10 package when
they're package is satisfactory.

My suggestion is to make six simple queues (MikroTik speak, but any packet
shaper should be able to accomplish this).  Three residential packages for
the three sizes of bandwidths and then three more for businesses.  Obviously
the businesses queues get priority of residential ones so during high usage
times (irrelevant of the time of day) the businesses get more reliable
service.  If a customer complains about the speed, then simply state (the
obvious fact that) their bandwidth package obviously doesn't fit their needs
and they need to upgrade.  If you can do this upgrade while they're on the
phone you know you're doing things right!

If you want to bend over backwards for the customer you can QoS their
traffic (HTTP, DNS first; SMTP, POP, IMAP second, Games third, and matched
P2P last).  I advise this as a small monthly fee (even if it's $4.95,
especially if it not a very turn-key process).

Note that I am a technician by heart so it is almost painful to write this.
I love bandwidth, but I also like food.  I need to keep my doors open to pay
for food!

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:27 PM, Brian Webster <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:

> I like the idea Chuck and others have used in regards to shaping. Give them
> a wide open connection for a short burst of time and then throttle them
> back
> to what they are paying for (say a minute or so). This will give them
> awesome performance for things like web pages and speed tests and most
> email, yet when they decide to be hogs using technology that is a constant
> demand on the connection, it won't cripple your network. This in
> conjunction
> with bandwidth caps should keep you solvent until the backhaul
> infrastructure in the US gets more robust, more accessible, and cheaper.
> Until then you just need to tell the clients the basic economic truth of
> how
> much constant internet really costs. Comcast and others are starting to bit
> cap their services so they must be seeing the same things you are. Show the
> customers your bill for your backhaul and ask them if they would like to
> pay
> that each month. Even those on FIOS and other Fiber technologies see those
> realities once their internet destination goes outside the private fiber
> circuits. FIOS may be fast but it sure exposes the sites and locations that
> don't have huge pipes serving them.
>
>
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
>   -Original Message-
>  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>  Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:15 PM
>  To: WISPA General List
>   Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)
>
>
>  Rick,
>
>  Just for what it's worth, we are seeing an increase in overall usage as
> well. We have been in the ISP business since 1994. It was only about a year
> ago that we went over 100Mbps of incoming traffic during peak time... and
> just today, we peaked at 176Mbps. So in a year's time we increased by 75%
> the amount of bandwidth usage by our customers. Of course we added new
> customers, etc. but that was at the same rate we have been adding customers
> for 5+ years.
>
>  Solution? There isn't a good one. I remember people saying things like "I
> just leave my customers wide open because then they will use what they need
> and then get off, so they are online less" and stuff like that. Those days
> are long gone. If you give people a 5Mbps connection, they will use 5Mbps.
> And now, rather than just doing what they were doing, they will just start
> more downloads or movies or TV because they can.
>
>  Travis
>  Microserv
>
>  RickG wrote:
> I have WRAP boards on all towers that provide limited bandwidth
> shaping. I just recently installed a Mikrotik firewall (and love it).
> It's shaping and rules cover all customers. As far as bandwidth hits,
> the previous owner oversold and overmarketed the amount of bandwidth
> in order to gain subscribers (i.e. premium 3Mbps accounts when he only
> had 3Mbps). Since bandwidth is very expensive and difficult to get
> here, this has led to a sluggish network that I am having difficulty
> resolving. Therefore, the customers have been complaining. The good
> news is that after getting very creative, I have overturned some new
> options but the cost is still a strain on the budget. My biggest
> frustration is the never ending question: What will it take? It
> appears that more and more people want constant multi-megabit speeds
> on demand for less than $50/month. The oversubscription rate on a
> $600/month T1 no longer provides

Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)

[Chuck McCown - 3]

I agree, you just need to be as good as or better than the competition.  And 
in many places the competition is still dialup.

- Original Message - 
From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)


>I strongly believe that the customer bandwidth packages should be
> priced based on your (or that area's cost).  I think a lot of the
> discussion has lost that mind set.
>
> Much of the debate here is thinking about 10 megs country wide
> broadband statement, 384k here or 2meg there.  In my area a 2 meg
> package is easily sellable and profitable.  It compares with cable/DSL
> is the populated areas we don't cover to get the enticement of those
> customers that are in our area.  In Nowhere, Idaho (pardon the lack of
> imaginative creativity) the options are could be 1 meg DSL, dialup and
> the local WISP packages of 512k and 1meg.  This particular WISP will
> not be selling 5 or 10 meg connections in the next couple of years or
> likely even ever.
>
> Not every town gets a 100 story skyscraper with a floor for a data
> center and oodles of fiber passsing through.  How can one offer the
> same service when the technological progression of this example and
> Nowhere are a decade apart?
>
> In cable's case of DOCSIS 3 and HD channels - how many homes are
> capable of getting that 50 meg connection Comcast boasts?  Or the
> dozens of HD channels?  I'm positive those customers in the most rural
> areas with a country block between houses will receive these new
> features much later then that of people living in a city with
> thousands of people in a single block.  Every one is in business to do
> business and make money.  It may be one's goal to feed their family or
> raise enough money to buy their dream house and car or even just to be
> able to grow the business, sell it, and start the process over.
>
> All we can do is our learn what we can and improve our practices with
> that knowledge.  The cable company is not going to upgrade the 10
> customers in Nowhere begore the thousand in BigOCity - it only make
> sense to secure the revenue from those thousand with other options
> then those 10 that have not other options.  A WISP can (should) not
> sell 3 megs to each customer when the bottleneck is 3 megs.  QoS can
> do great things but it simply can not turn 3 megs into
> customers*3megs.
>
> I am done ranting, thank you for reading!
>
> On 12/4/08, RickG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I have WRAP boards on all towers that provide limited bandwidth
>> shaping. I just recently installed a Mikrotik firewall (and love it).
>> It's shaping and rules cover all customers. As far as bandwidth hits,
>> the previous owner oversold and overmarketed the amount of bandwidth
>> in order to gain subscribers (i.e. premium 3Mbps accounts when he only
>> had 3Mbps). Since bandwidth is very expensive and difficult to get
>> here, this has led to a sluggish network that I am having difficulty
>> resolving. Therefore, the customers have been complaining. The good
>> news is that after getting very creative, I have overturned some new
>> options but the cost is still a strain on the budget. My biggest
>> frustration is the never ending question: What will it take? It
>> appears that more and more people want constant multi-megabit speeds
>> on demand for less than $50/month. The oversubscription rate on a
>> $600/month T1 no longer provides for a valid business model. Heck, my
>> $500/month 5Mbps connection form Time Warner became quickly saturated
>> once I put it in. I expect my new 11Mbps connection for $600 will do
>> the same. The interesting part is that I continue to get pressure for
>> faster speed plans therefore pressure to make the same mistake my
>> predecessor made - offer plans with speeds that max out my capacity.
>> -RickG
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Steve Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Rick, (everyone)
>>>
>>> So from that statement it appears that you are not using any bandwidth
>>> limiting ore shaping at your AP or NOC.
>>> Question 1. Is that for all Client levels or just your premium service.
>>> Question 2. If you don't manage limits, was that always how you've
>>> always done it? If not what made you decide to do it this way and what
>>> kind of upstream hit did you take.
>>>
>>> I am considering giving more speed but I am concerned about the
>>> additional cost to me for abusers.
>>>
>>> Steve Barnes
>>> RCWiFi Wireless Internet Service
>>>
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>> Behalf Of RickG
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:04 AM
>>> To: WISPA General List
>>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>>>
>>> Every SHOULD know that most connections are "shared bandwidth". The
>>> keyword is SHOULD. But, peole only hear what they want to and everyone
>>> I talk to that isnt a techie thinks they get the speed they bought fo

Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)

[Josh Luthman]

I strongly believe that the customer bandwidth packages should be
priced based on your (or that area's cost).  I think a lot of the
discussion has lost that mind set.

Much of the debate here is thinking about 10 megs country wide
broadband statement, 384k here or 2meg there.  In my area a 2 meg
package is easily sellable and profitable.  It compares with cable/DSL
is the populated areas we don't cover to get the enticement of those
customers that are in our area.  In Nowhere, Idaho (pardon the lack of
imaginative creativity) the options are could be 1 meg DSL, dialup and
the local WISP packages of 512k and 1meg.  This particular WISP will
not be selling 5 or 10 meg connections in the next couple of years or
likely even ever.

Not every town gets a 100 story skyscraper with a floor for a data
center and oodles of fiber passsing through.  How can one offer the
same service when the technological progression of this example and
Nowhere are a decade apart?

In cable's case of DOCSIS 3 and HD channels - how many homes are
capable of getting that 50 meg connection Comcast boasts?  Or the
dozens of HD channels?  I'm positive those customers in the most rural
areas with a country block between houses will receive these new
features much later then that of people living in a city with
thousands of people in a single block.  Every one is in business to do
business and make money.  It may be one's goal to feed their family or
raise enough money to buy their dream house and car or even just to be
able to grow the business, sell it, and start the process over.

All we can do is our learn what we can and improve our practices with
that knowledge.  The cable company is not going to upgrade the 10
customers in Nowhere begore the thousand in BigOCity - it only make
sense to secure the revenue from those thousand with other options
then those 10 that have not other options.  A WISP can (should) not
sell 3 megs to each customer when the bottleneck is 3 megs.  QoS can
do great things but it simply can not turn 3 megs into
customers*3megs.

I am done ranting, thank you for reading!

On 12/4/08, RickG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I have WRAP boards on all towers that provide limited bandwidth
> shaping. I just recently installed a Mikrotik firewall (and love it).
> It's shaping and rules cover all customers. As far as bandwidth hits,
> the previous owner oversold and overmarketed the amount of bandwidth
> in order to gain subscribers (i.e. premium 3Mbps accounts when he only
> had 3Mbps). Since bandwidth is very expensive and difficult to get
> here, this has led to a sluggish network that I am having difficulty
> resolving. Therefore, the customers have been complaining. The good
> news is that after getting very creative, I have overturned some new
> options but the cost is still a strain on the budget. My biggest
> frustration is the never ending question: What will it take? It
> appears that more and more people want constant multi-megabit speeds
> on demand for less than $50/month. The oversubscription rate on a
> $600/month T1 no longer provides for a valid business model. Heck, my
> $500/month 5Mbps connection form Time Warner became quickly saturated
> once I put it in. I expect my new 11Mbps connection for $600 will do
> the same. The interesting part is that I continue to get pressure for
> faster speed plans therefore pressure to make the same mistake my
> predecessor made - offer plans with speeds that max out my capacity.
> -RickG
>
> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Steve Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Rick, (everyone)
>>
>> So from that statement it appears that you are not using any bandwidth
>> limiting ore shaping at your AP or NOC.
>> Question 1. Is that for all Client levels or just your premium service.
>> Question 2. If you don't manage limits, was that always how you've
>> always done it? If not what made you decide to do it this way and what
>> kind of upstream hit did you take.
>>
>> I am considering giving more speed but I am concerned about the
>> additional cost to me for abusers.
>>
>> Steve Barnes
>> RCWiFi Wireless Internet Service
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> Behalf Of RickG
>> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:04 AM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>>
>> Every SHOULD know that most connections are "shared bandwidth". The
>> keyword is SHOULD. But, peole only hear what they want to and everyone
>> I talk to that isnt a techie thinks they get the speed they bought for
>> $50 or less all the time! The marketing gurus have screwed up again
>> just like the "unlimited use" policy fiasco. So, I always try to
>> educate my users but they percieve this as my issue and that my
>> service is inferiro with cable or dsl. Of course, thats what feeds the
>> marketing hype with the speed in the first place. So, what to do?
>> -RickG
>>
>> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:41 AM, Jack Unger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> De

Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)

[Brian Webster]

That is a reasonable thing to do. As soon as people start to use video
streaming as a mass adoption, not just early adopters, the streaming movie
services will turn to crap, and  network operators will do just what you are
proposing. Not because they want to be controlling content, but it can not
be supported economically given today's backhauls. You won't be the only one
doing the capping. I don't see this as an issue of net neutrality, but a
problem of infrastructure. I think NetFlix and Blockbuster are going to be
in for a reality shock when they realize all people with broadband don't
really have an all you can eat, as much as you want, for as long as you
want, connection.

Right now with backhaul capacity being what it is, video is best left to
networks that were built for it. Fiber, coax, over the air broadcasts, and
satellite. Not a data network that never promised full time constant
capacity. The content providers may not like that statement and may cry
foul, but it's the current state of the infrastructure, not protective
business practices.



Thank You,
Brian Webster


-Original Message-
From: Travis Johnson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:37 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)


I'm not sure this fixes anything either. Even if you cap people at
1Mbps, if they are watching a movie, they are using that 1Mbps for 2
hours constant. My cost on that 1Mbps is $40, the same price I am
selling the service to them for... yet I have all the overhead and
expenses to keep it running.

I may have to buy a Netflix box or an Xbox-360 just to see what IP
blocks these devices are pulling from, then I will just start throttling
the entire netblock to each service... rather than trying to control
each customer. Allocate 5Mbps to all of Netflix's IP's on my network...
then if people want to get better streaming service, they can pay me to
un-throttle their connection. ;)

Travis
Microserv

Brian Webster wrote:
> I like the idea Chuck and others have used in regards to shaping. Give
them
> a wide open connection for a short burst of time and then throttle them
back
> to what they are paying for (say a minute or so). This will give them
> awesome performance for things like web pages and speed tests and most
> email, yet when they decide to be hogs using technology that is a constant
> demand on the connection, it won't cripple your network. This in
conjunction
> with bandwidth caps should keep you solvent until the backhaul
> infrastructure in the US gets more robust, more accessible, and cheaper.
> Until then you just need to tell the clients the basic economic truth of
how
> much constant internet really costs. Comcast and others are starting to
bit
> cap their services so they must be seeing the same things you are. Show
the
> customers your bill for your backhaul and ask them if they would like to
pay
> that each month. Even those on FIOS and other Fiber technologies see those
> realities once their internet destination goes outside the private fiber
> circuits. FIOS may be fast but it sure exposes the sites and locations
that
> don't have huge pipes serving them.
>
>
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
>   -Original Message-
>   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>   Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:15 PM
>   To: WISPA General List
>   Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)
>
>
>   Rick,
>
>   Just for what it's worth, we are seeing an increase in overall usage as
> well. We have been in the ISP business since 1994. It was only about a
year
> ago that we went over 100Mbps of incoming traffic during peak time... and
> just today, we peaked at 176Mbps. So in a year's time we increased by 75%
> the amount of bandwidth usage by our customers. Of course we added new
> customers, etc. but that was at the same rate we have been adding
customers
> for 5+ years.
>
>   Solution? There isn't a good one. I remember people saying things like
"I
> just leave my customers wide open because then they will use what they
need
> and then get off, so they are online less" and stuff like that. Those days
> are long gone. If you give people a 5Mbps connection, they will use 5Mbps.
> And now, rather than just doing what they were doing, they will just start
> more downloads or movies or TV because they can.
>
>   Travis
>   Microserv
>
>   RickG wrote:
> I have WRAP boards on all towers that provide limited bandwidth
> shaping. I just recently installed a Mikrotik firewall (and love it).
> It's shaping and rules cover all customers. As far as bandwidth hits,
> the previous owner oversold and overmarketed the amount of bandwidth
> in order to gain subscribers (i.e. premium 3Mbps accounts when he only
> had 3Mbps). Since bandwidth is very expensive and difficult to get
> here, this has led to a sluggish network that I am having difficulty
> resolving. Therefore, the customer

Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)

[Travis Johnson]

I'm not sure this fixes anything either. Even if you cap people at 
1Mbps, if they are watching a movie, they are using that 1Mbps for 2 
hours constant. My cost on that 1Mbps is $40, the same price I am 
selling the service to them for... yet I have all the overhead and 
expenses to keep it running.

I may have to buy a Netflix box or an Xbox-360 just to see what IP 
blocks these devices are pulling from, then I will just start throttling 
the entire netblock to each service... rather than trying to control 
each customer. Allocate 5Mbps to all of Netflix's IP's on my network... 
then if people want to get better streaming service, they can pay me to 
un-throttle their connection. ;)

Travis
Microserv

Brian Webster wrote:
> I like the idea Chuck and others have used in regards to shaping. Give them
> a wide open connection for a short burst of time and then throttle them back
> to what they are paying for (say a minute or so). This will give them
> awesome performance for things like web pages and speed tests and most
> email, yet when they decide to be hogs using technology that is a constant
> demand on the connection, it won't cripple your network. This in conjunction
> with bandwidth caps should keep you solvent until the backhaul
> infrastructure in the US gets more robust, more accessible, and cheaper.
> Until then you just need to tell the clients the basic economic truth of how
> much constant internet really costs. Comcast and others are starting to bit
> cap their services so they must be seeing the same things you are. Show the
> customers your bill for your backhaul and ask them if they would like to pay
> that each month. Even those on FIOS and other Fiber technologies see those
> realities once their internet destination goes outside the private fiber
> circuits. FIOS may be fast but it sure exposes the sites and locations that
> don't have huge pipes serving them.
>
>
>
> Thank You,
> Brian Webster
>   -Original Message-
>   From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>   Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:15 PM
>   To: WISPA General List
>   Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)
>
>
>   Rick,
>
>   Just for what it's worth, we are seeing an increase in overall usage as
> well. We have been in the ISP business since 1994. It was only about a year
> ago that we went over 100Mbps of incoming traffic during peak time... and
> just today, we peaked at 176Mbps. So in a year's time we increased by 75%
> the amount of bandwidth usage by our customers. Of course we added new
> customers, etc. but that was at the same rate we have been adding customers
> for 5+ years.
>
>   Solution? There isn't a good one. I remember people saying things like "I
> just leave my customers wide open because then they will use what they need
> and then get off, so they are online less" and stuff like that. Those days
> are long gone. If you give people a 5Mbps connection, they will use 5Mbps.
> And now, rather than just doing what they were doing, they will just start
> more downloads or movies or TV because they can.
>
>   Travis
>   Microserv
>
>   RickG wrote:
> I have WRAP boards on all towers that provide limited bandwidth
> shaping. I just recently installed a Mikrotik firewall (and love it).
> It's shaping and rules cover all customers. As far as bandwidth hits,
> the previous owner oversold and overmarketed the amount of bandwidth
> in order to gain subscribers (i.e. premium 3Mbps accounts when he only
> had 3Mbps). Since bandwidth is very expensive and difficult to get
> here, this has led to a sluggish network that I am having difficulty
> resolving. Therefore, the customers have been complaining. The good
> news is that after getting very creative, I have overturned some new
> options but the cost is still a strain on the budget. My biggest
> frustration is the never ending question: What will it take? It
> appears that more and more people want constant multi-megabit speeds
> on demand for less than $50/month. The oversubscription rate on a
> $600/month T1 no longer provides for a valid business model. Heck, my
> $500/month 5Mbps connection form Time Warner became quickly saturated
> once I put it in. I expect my new 11Mbps connection for $600 will do
> the same. The interesting part is that I continue to get pressure for
> faster speed plans therefore pressure to make the same mistake my
> predecessor made - offer plans with speeds that max out my capacity.
> -RickG
>
> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Steve Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>   Rick, (everyone)
>
> So from that statement it appears that you are not using any bandwidth
> limiting ore shaping at your AP or NOC.
> Question 1. Is that for all Client levels or just your premium service.
> Question 2. If you don't manage limits, was that always how you've
> always done it? If not what made you decide to do it this way and what
> kind of upstream hit did you take.
>
> I am considering g

Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)

[Brian Webster]

I like the idea Chuck and others have used in regards to shaping. Give them
a wide open connection for a short burst of time and then throttle them back
to what they are paying for (say a minute or so). This will give them
awesome performance for things like web pages and speed tests and most
email, yet when they decide to be hogs using technology that is a constant
demand on the connection, it won't cripple your network. This in conjunction
with bandwidth caps should keep you solvent until the backhaul
infrastructure in the US gets more robust, more accessible, and cheaper.
Until then you just need to tell the clients the basic economic truth of how
much constant internet really costs. Comcast and others are starting to bit
cap their services so they must be seeing the same things you are. Show the
customers your bill for your backhaul and ask them if they would like to pay
that each month. Even those on FIOS and other Fiber technologies see those
realities once their internet destination goes outside the private fiber
circuits. FIOS may be fast but it sure exposes the sites and locations that
don't have huge pipes serving them.



Thank You,
Brian Webster
  -Original Message-
  From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
  Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:15 PM
  To: WISPA General List
  Subject: Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)


  Rick,

  Just for what it's worth, we are seeing an increase in overall usage as
well. We have been in the ISP business since 1994. It was only about a year
ago that we went over 100Mbps of incoming traffic during peak time... and
just today, we peaked at 176Mbps. So in a year's time we increased by 75%
the amount of bandwidth usage by our customers. Of course we added new
customers, etc. but that was at the same rate we have been adding customers
for 5+ years.

  Solution? There isn't a good one. I remember people saying things like "I
just leave my customers wide open because then they will use what they need
and then get off, so they are online less" and stuff like that. Those days
are long gone. If you give people a 5Mbps connection, they will use 5Mbps.
And now, rather than just doing what they were doing, they will just start
more downloads or movies or TV because they can.

  Travis
  Microserv

  RickG wrote:
I have WRAP boards on all towers that provide limited bandwidth
shaping. I just recently installed a Mikrotik firewall (and love it).
It's shaping and rules cover all customers. As far as bandwidth hits,
the previous owner oversold and overmarketed the amount of bandwidth
in order to gain subscribers (i.e. premium 3Mbps accounts when he only
had 3Mbps). Since bandwidth is very expensive and difficult to get
here, this has led to a sluggish network that I am having difficulty
resolving. Therefore, the customers have been complaining. The good
news is that after getting very creative, I have overturned some new
options but the cost is still a strain on the budget. My biggest
frustration is the never ending question: What will it take? It
appears that more and more people want constant multi-megabit speeds
on demand for less than $50/month. The oversubscription rate on a
$600/month T1 no longer provides for a valid business model. Heck, my
$500/month 5Mbps connection form Time Warner became quickly saturated
once I put it in. I expect my new 11Mbps connection for $600 will do
the same. The interesting part is that I continue to get pressure for
faster speed plans therefore pressure to make the same mistake my
predecessor made - offer plans with speeds that max out my capacity.
-RickG

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Steve Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Rick, (everyone)

So from that statement it appears that you are not using any bandwidth
limiting ore shaping at your AP or NOC.
Question 1. Is that for all Client levels or just your premium service.
Question 2. If you don't manage limits, was that always how you've
always done it? If not what made you decide to do it this way and what
kind of upstream hit did you take.

I am considering giving more speed but I am concerned about the
additional cost to me for abusers.

Steve Barnes
RCWiFi Wireless Internet Service

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:04 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article

Every SHOULD know that most connections are "shared bandwidth". The
keyword is SHOULD. But, peole only hear what they want to and everyone
I talk to that isnt a techie thinks they get the speed they bought for
$50 or less all the time! The marketing gurus have screwed up again
just like the "unlimited use" policy fiasco. So, I always try to
educate my users but they percieve this as my issue and that my
service is inferiro with cable or dsl. Of course, thats what feeds the
marketing hype with the speed in the first place. So, what to do?
-RickG

On Thu, Dec 4

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[Travis Johnson]

Rick,

I guess the one thing I need to mention was since we started leasing,
we have always had enough installs to cover the equipment we are
buying. I would never buy equipment in the "hopes" that you will have
customers to use it. We have done 100+ installs per month for many
years, so we buy 250 radios at a time. They usually get us by for about
3-4 months (because of other people canceling their service and we pick
up the old radio and re-install it).

You aren't going wrong, and it sounds like your way is working for you
just fine. Really leasing only works if you can get the economies of
scale of buying 250-500 radios at a time, so you get the true cost
savings on the price of the radios to offset the extra cost of the
interest on the lease.

Travis
Microserv

RickG wrote:

  Same here so we're in sync on that.
As far as leasing, I leased my initial allotment of equipment but the
new sub take rate has been very unpredictable so didnt feel
comfortable enough to add to the monthly lease payment. Therefore,
I've been purchasing additional CPE as I add new subs. This has
allowed me to grow while getting an immeadiate expense deduction on
the new equipment to write off on my new revenue.
Where am I going wrong?
-RickG

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Travis Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  
  
The CPE is our property and it is just part of the monthly service. We don't
charge extra for it (because without it, they can't have service).

Travis
Microserv

RickG wrote:

Travis,

Do you lease or rent the CPE to you customers?

-RickG

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Travis Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee
covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" on every new
customer.

Travis
Microserv

Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000 subscribers
things will be a bit better.

- Original Message -
From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds




I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
that is so often discussed on this list.



I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
320 clients.



The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have started you
service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
boat.



So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
Verizon.



Steve Barnes

RC-WiFi.com




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---

Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)

[Travis Johnson]

Rick,

Just for what it's worth, we are seeing an increase in overall usage as
well. We have been in the ISP business since 1994. It was only about a
year ago that we went over 100Mbps of incoming traffic during peak
time... and just today, we peaked at 176Mbps. So in a year's time we
increased by 75% the amount of bandwidth usage by our customers. Of
course we added new customers, etc. but that was at the same rate we
have been adding customers for 5+ years.

Solution? There isn't a good one. I remember people saying things like
"I just leave my customers wide open because then they will use what
they need and then get off, so they are online less" and stuff like
that. Those days are long gone. If you give people a 5Mbps connection,
they will use 5Mbps. And now, rather than just doing what they were
doing, they will just start more downloads or movies or TV because they
can.

Travis
Microserv

RickG wrote:

  I have WRAP boards on all towers that provide limited bandwidth
shaping. I just recently installed a Mikrotik firewall (and love it).
It's shaping and rules cover all customers. As far as bandwidth hits,
the previous owner oversold and overmarketed the amount of bandwidth
in order to gain subscribers (i.e. premium 3Mbps accounts when he only
had 3Mbps). Since bandwidth is very expensive and difficult to get
here, this has led to a sluggish network that I am having difficulty
resolving. Therefore, the customers have been complaining. The good
news is that after getting very creative, I have overturned some new
options but the cost is still a strain on the budget. My biggest
frustration is the never ending question: What will it take? It
appears that more and more people want constant multi-megabit speeds
on demand for less than $50/month. The oversubscription rate on a
$600/month T1 no longer provides for a valid business model. Heck, my
$500/month 5Mbps connection form Time Warner became quickly saturated
once I put it in. I expect my new 11Mbps connection for $600 will do
the same. The interesting part is that I continue to get pressure for
faster speed plans therefore pressure to make the same mistake my
predecessor made - offer plans with speeds that max out my capacity.
-RickG

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Steve Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  
  
Rick, (everyone)

So from that statement it appears that you are not using any bandwidth
limiting ore shaping at your AP or NOC.
Question 1. Is that for all Client levels or just your premium service.
Question 2. If you don't manage limits, was that always how you've
always done it? If not what made you decide to do it this way and what
kind of upstream hit did you take.

I am considering giving more speed but I am concerned about the
additional cost to me for abusers.

Steve Barnes
RCWiFi Wireless Internet Service

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:04 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article

Every SHOULD know that most connections are "shared bandwidth". The
keyword is SHOULD. But, peole only hear what they want to and everyone
I talk to that isnt a techie thinks they get the speed they bought for
$50 or less all the time! The marketing gurus have screwed up again
just like the "unlimited use" policy fiasco. So, I always try to
educate my users but they percieve this as my issue and that my
service is inferiro with cable or dsl. Of course, thats what feeds the
marketing hype with the speed in the first place. So, what to do?
-RickG

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:41 AM, Jack Unger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


  Dear Mike,

You miss the point and possibly so does Josh. Because an AP can
  

deliver


  "x" amount of throughput during a speed test between two location does
not mean that the same AP can deliver that amount of throughput to all
the customers simultaneously. The AP's throughput is shared between
  

all


  of the end-users. When the AP maxes out, some (possibly all) of those
end-users must slow down. Some WISPs do not understand this and thus
they end up over-promising throughput and disappointing their
  

customers.


  WISPs need to understand this or they will fail in this business and
give other WISPs a black eye in the process. Nobody is getting beat up
here; this has nothing to do with personalities. It has everything to
  

do


  with the physics of data communications behavior. Everybody needs to
understand the true limits of their system.

Why is this? Because the "air" is a shared medium. Throughput delivery
takes real-world time in intervals we call "time-slots". You can only
carry so much throughput during one time-slot. There area only so many
time-slots (fractions of a second) in each second. This is why
throughput is limited. Only so many users can be on one AP at the same
time if they are requ

Re: [WISPA] Bandwidth Shaping (WAS Article)

[RickG]

I have WRAP boards on all towers that provide limited bandwidth
shaping. I just recently installed a Mikrotik firewall (and love it).
It's shaping and rules cover all customers. As far as bandwidth hits,
the previous owner oversold and overmarketed the amount of bandwidth
in order to gain subscribers (i.e. premium 3Mbps accounts when he only
had 3Mbps). Since bandwidth is very expensive and difficult to get
here, this has led to a sluggish network that I am having difficulty
resolving. Therefore, the customers have been complaining. The good
news is that after getting very creative, I have overturned some new
options but the cost is still a strain on the budget. My biggest
frustration is the never ending question: What will it take? It
appears that more and more people want constant multi-megabit speeds
on demand for less than $50/month. The oversubscription rate on a
$600/month T1 no longer provides for a valid business model. Heck, my
$500/month 5Mbps connection form Time Warner became quickly saturated
once I put it in. I expect my new 11Mbps connection for $600 will do
the same. The interesting part is that I continue to get pressure for
faster speed plans therefore pressure to make the same mistake my
predecessor made - offer plans with speeds that max out my capacity.
-RickG

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:35 PM, Steve Barnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Rick, (everyone)
>
> So from that statement it appears that you are not using any bandwidth
> limiting ore shaping at your AP or NOC.
> Question 1. Is that for all Client levels or just your premium service.
> Question 2. If you don't manage limits, was that always how you've
> always done it? If not what made you decide to do it this way and what
> kind of upstream hit did you take.
>
> I am considering giving more speed but I am concerned about the
> additional cost to me for abusers.
>
> Steve Barnes
> RCWiFi Wireless Internet Service
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of RickG
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:04 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>
> Every SHOULD know that most connections are "shared bandwidth". The
> keyword is SHOULD. But, peole only hear what they want to and everyone
> I talk to that isnt a techie thinks they get the speed they bought for
> $50 or less all the time! The marketing gurus have screwed up again
> just like the "unlimited use" policy fiasco. So, I always try to
> educate my users but they percieve this as my issue and that my
> service is inferiro with cable or dsl. Of course, thats what feeds the
> marketing hype with the speed in the first place. So, what to do?
> -RickG
>
> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:41 AM, Jack Unger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Dear Mike,
>>
>> You miss the point and possibly so does Josh. Because an AP can
> deliver
>> "x" amount of throughput during a speed test between two location does
>> not mean that the same AP can deliver that amount of throughput to all
>> the customers simultaneously. The AP's throughput is shared between
> all
>> of the end-users. When the AP maxes out, some (possibly all) of those
>> end-users must slow down. Some WISPs do not understand this and thus
>> they end up over-promising throughput and disappointing their
> customers.
>> WISPs need to understand this or they will fail in this business and
>> give other WISPs a black eye in the process. Nobody is getting beat up
>> here; this has nothing to do with personalities. It has everything to
> do
>> with the physics of data communications behavior. Everybody needs to
>> understand the true limits of their system.
>>
>> Why is this? Because the "air" is a shared medium. Throughput delivery
>> takes real-world time in intervals we call "time-slots". You can only
>> carry so much throughput during one time-slot. There area only so many
>> time-slots (fractions of a second) in each second. This is why
>> throughput is limited. Only so many users can be on one AP at the same
>> time if they are requesting a large amount of the available AP
>> throughput. A lightly-loaded system may appear to be able to deliver
> max
>> throughput simultaneously to those few customers but when the AP is
>> heavily loaded with users who are vying for a lot of throughput
>> simultaneously then most of them will need to slow down because not
>> everyone will get all the time slots they need to carry the high
>> throughput (ex: video streaming) levels that they are requesting.
>>
>> Don't make this personal; that simply detracts from the very real
>> technical limits that a successful WISP must understand in order to
>> succeed and survive.
>>
>> jack
>>
>>
>> Mike Hammett wrote:
>>> I didn't get that at all.
>>>
>>> It seems as though when anyone on this list suggests going faster
> than 2 megabits, they get beat up.  Sorry, Charlie, BA-II was outdated
> long ago.
>>>
>>>
>>> -
>>> Mike Hammett
>>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>>> http://www.ics-il

Re: [WISPA] Too many awkward cricket chirps coming from the list...

[Butch Evans]

On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, Austin Wright wrote:

>I know this is a bit off topic as well but...Happy Holidays 
>everyone!

Thanks for the breeze of cool air!  MERRY CHRISTMAS to you!

> My top three are as follows:
>   1. Christmas

Good.

>   2. Arbor Day (I'm not a 'tree hugger' but we don't like ANYTHING
> paper-related at Powercode haha)

LOL.  Good reason.

>   3. My birthday, not a national holiday...yet

Funny...my birthday isn't a national holiday, either, but for some 
reason my phone didn't get answered even once on my birthday. 
Wonder why that isMaybe next year I'll answer and just charge 
"holiday rates".  ;-)

-- 

* Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/   * Wired or Wireless Networks   *




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Re: [WISPA] Article

[Butch Evans]

On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>>>And I won't be.  I was once and put money into WISPA.  When I 
>>>think WISPA has the interests of all WISPS in mind when they act, 
>>>then I'll financially support it.  When WISPA goes to washington 
>>>DC and represents to them, that we actually WANT to be regulated, 
>>>I cannot
>>
>> When did this ever happen?
>
> It did.  Long ago.  I supported WISPA until someone spilled the 
>beans.

What "beans"?  This not an answer.  It is more paranoia.  My 
question, very specifically, is "When did some that was officially 
representing WISPA go to DC and say anything even close to 'We want 
to be regulated'"?  If you have a REAL reference to a REAL person 
with even questionable evidence, then I'll give this point up and 
will be able to see SOME of the reason for your displeasure.  Until 
then, I'll just assume it is pure paranoia and disdain for any 
disagreement with your opinion.

>Hmmm... Allowing the people to use a public commodity.  Wow.  I 
>feel so privileged.  NOT!  No, the knotheads in DC OWE US THE USE 
>OF IT.

Yes.  Like they "owe" us the right to use the highways.  And, yet, 
there are regulations to THAT, too.  Do you want all speed limits 
removed as well?  How about the regulations that require our 
vehicles to have lights when we drive at night?

>Wow, what a strange concept.  When did we forget, we're the boss 
>and the owners, they're the designated stewards?

Correct.  Here's the dictionary definition of "steward":

"1. a person who manages another's property or financial affairs; 
one who administers anything as the agent of another or others."

I'm assuming that's the definition you had in mind.  Being that the 
spectrum belongs to "us" and they are "stewarding" it for us, does 
that not give them the power...even RESPONSIBILITY...to set some 
regulations for it's use?  Give me a break!

>Wow.  Effective and reasonable ideas could have been dreamed up and 
>proposed and made into law by now.  But nope, we're still 
>determined that pounding a square peg into a round hole "just has 
>to be".

Still on this?  CALEA applies to us.  If you wish to ignore the 
simple facts as they really are, does that mean that all of us 
should just go along?  If you wish to propose another tack, then you 
should (as I suggested 2 years ago) approach your congressman and 
get them to draft the laws.  But then laws are "regulations", so 
THAT approach is not gonna work.  Hmmm...we're kinda in a vicious 
circle.  Guess you're gonna have to help with this one.

>>>When the attitude that "consolidation and shaking out the smaller 
>>>players" is a good thing goes away, then there's on more barrier 
>>>down.  It may not be
>>
>>What's bad about building and selling?  You don't like money 
>>either?
>
>Hmmm...  words have a specific meaning, I said precisely what I 
>meant. When the attitude that the smaller players need to go away 
>is shaken out of WISPA, that will be a good thing.

Don't get me started on the "words have specific meaning" direction. 
What you claim regarding the "attitude" of smaller players needing 
to go away has NO foundation in reality.  It is, perhaps your own 
interpretation of events, but WISPA is comprised of MOSTLY smaller 
WISPs.  There are WISPs who are just getting started all the way up 
to multi-thousand players.  Not only do we welcome them all, but we 
are trying to represent some really varied needs.  Sometimes, the 
smaller players are better served by our actions and sometimes it is 
the larger, HOWEVER, the industry at large is best served when both 
classes exist.  In most cases, the actions we have undertaken serve 
BOTH groups.  What we hope for is to help bring about an environment 
that assists ALL WISPs to grow and prosper.  Part of that mission 
involves addressing regulatory change.

>I'm just recalling a specific thread on this list that's now 2 or 3 
>years old, about how this industry will be much better and more 
>representable in Washington when it is "mature" and not a whole lot 
>of smaller players. Someone who is influential in WISPA was the 
>source of this attitude, too.

I would be willing to bet you can't find this anywhere.  Your 
recollection MUST be wrong.  Again, post some evidence that your 
recollection is accurate.  You can't just throw out defamatory 
statements like this without SOME basis in fact.  The archives for 
the private members list is here: 
http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/private/wisp/

And the archives for the public list is here:
http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/

Both have archives back to 2004.

>This particular person seemed to be embarrassed to consider 
>representing this industry as having mom and pop type members.

If you plan to mention a name, I'd be careful.  Slander is one of 
those regulated types of speech.  If you can't back up what you say, 
it's best to keep your mouth shut.  After all, it's only slander 
when it isn't true.  I don't believe you can prove it,

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[RickG]

Same here so we're in sync on that.
As far as leasing, I leased my initial allotment of equipment but the
new sub take rate has been very unpredictable so didnt feel
comfortable enough to add to the monthly lease payment. Therefore,
I've been purchasing additional CPE as I add new subs. This has
allowed me to grow while getting an immeadiate expense deduction on
the new equipment to write off on my new revenue.
Where am I going wrong?
-RickG

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:15 AM, Travis Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The CPE is our property and it is just part of the monthly service. We don't
> charge extra for it (because without it, they can't have service).
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> RickG wrote:
>
> Travis,
>
> Do you lease or rent the CPE to you customers?
>
> -RickG
>
> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Travis Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
> Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee
> covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" on every new
> customer.
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>
> You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000 subscribers
> things will be a bit better.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
> Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>
>
>
>
> I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
> WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
> that is so often discussed on this list.
>
>
>
> I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
> penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
> clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
> what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
> 320 clients.
>
>
>
> The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
> Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
> speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
> of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
> Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
> another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
> 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
>
>
>
> Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
> you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
>
>
>
> Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have started you
> service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
> know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
> boat.
>
>
>
> So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
> without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
> charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
> readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
> Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
> Verizon.
>
>
>
> Steve Barnes
>
> RC-WiFi.com
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
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>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --

Re: [WISPA] Article

[Marlon K. Schafer]

LOL  Yeah.

It's much easier to whine than it is to join and help improve things eh?

Mark, you still fail to grasp the difference between working to change the 
rules while living within the ones that exist.

marlon

- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Moldashel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article


> Wow...OK   Who peed in the Muddy Water and hit the Frog?
>
> Sheesh...
>
> -B-
>
>
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> And I won't be.   I was once and put money into WISPA.When I think 
>> WISPA
>> has the interests of all WISPS in mind when they act, then I'll 
>> financially
>> support it.   When WISPA goes to washington DC and represents to them, 
>> that
>> we actually WANT to be regulated, I cannot support them.   When WISPA
>> consistently fights FOR all of us, and not just the narrow interests of
>> those who want federal money or whatever, then I may again support WISPA
>> financially.
>>
>> When the attitude that "consolidation and shaking out the smaller 
>> players"
>> is a good thing goes away, then there's on more barrier down.  It may not 
>> be
>> official, but people who make decisions in WISPA have said that in the 
>> past.
>> Sorry, you lost me with that one.  Small business and "mom and pop" are 
>> the
>> backbone of our economy and make up a huge segment of all the jobs in the
>> whole country.
>>
>> Every other industry organization unabashedly opposes everything that 
>> costs
>> them or can harm them, but the leadership continues to insist that 
>> somehow
>> playing nice and agreeing to mandates and costs will buy us favor... 
>> All
>> that happens is the mandates and agreements happen, the regulators change
>> and all the "goodwill" supposedly bought evaportes, with the precedents 
>> and
>> whatnot remain.  Until they understand that Washington DC is NEVER our
>> friend, never to be trusted, then we're just sheep waiting to get shorn.
>>
>> Until this fundamental approach changes, no way in good conscience can I 
>> put
>> my name on what they do or give them money.
>>
>>
>> Sorry, that's just my opinion and it's not subject to "revision and
>> extension".
>>
>> This same attitude is going on still.   WISPA leadership is still talking
>> about trying to out maneuver the big boys so as to make grants and loans
>> available.   Cripes.  Yeah, like we're ever going to win the arm twisting
>> contest to bend it in our direction?   We don't collectively have that 
>> much
>> money or lobbyists tin DC to get our names to the top of the rolodexes. 
>> We
>> cannot win that fight with those rules.
>>
>> We have got to start selling the value of a thriving and diverse industry
>> that exists solely due to lack of regulation and lack of governmental
>> interference and that the big players cannot play our game effectively 
>> and
>> that betting on the big guys is like buying Enron or Lehman stock.   We 
>> will
>> never be the providers to the masses, but there can never be affordable
>> ubiquitous broadband without us.
>>
>> That might take some thought and creativity to compose the narration and 
>> it
>> might take some skill to sell, but there's simply no rebuttal from 
>> Verizon
>> that FIOS is ever going to make a lick of sense in a wide array of 
>> places.
>> Or that in an era when Congress really, REALLY needs to get their fiscal 
>> act
>> in order, that blowing vast sums to reach few people makes sense.
>>
>> It has to be about selling the value of who and what you are and why you
>> are, not out muscling the big guys for a slice of pie.   That can't be 
>> won.
>> Further, it obliterations the differences between us and them.   That
>> DIFFERENCE is our strength, not our weakness.  If you're not thinking in
>> those terms, then some re-thinking needs to happen.
>>
>> What will attract membership is a consistent, clear message about how we
>> have and are building a thriving and healthy industry, even in these
>> economic times, due to the fact that WE ARE NOT THEM and then selling
>> exactly who we are.   The people coming back form DC need to talking 
>> about
>> how they sold us so well that when we say we need protection from 
>> mandates
>> and expensive intrusions, that they listened.   The idea of going to DC 
>> and
>> being a "we threw a toothpick in the cogs of the big guys and got some 
>> money
>> for us" is self defeating.
>>
>> We need to be proactive, not reactive, we need a coherent message and a
>> coherent brand.  We need to be defensive of the very thing that makes it
>> possible for our numbers to multiply - freedom to do business without
>> regulatory overhead.   We need to not be attempting to joust with the 
>> cable
>> operators and telcos over what they want.  We need to present something 
>> more
>> compelling than "feed our gaping maw so we c an continue our mediocre
>> performance" that the othe guys play.
>>
>> And no, don't tell me to "run for WISPA offic

Re: [WISPA] Too many awkward cricket chirps coming from the list...

[reader]

And all the best to you, too.







- Original Message - 
From: "Austin Wright" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:52 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Too many awkward cricket chirps coming from the list...


>I know this is a bit off topic as well but...Happy Holidays everyone!
>
> From, The Powercode Team
>
> --Please contact me off list if you would like to argue which holiday is 
> the
> best--  :)
> My top three are as follows:
> 1. Christmas
> 2. Arbor Day (I'm not a 'tree hugger' but we don't like ANYTHING
> paper-related at Powercode haha)
> 3. My birthday, not a national holiday...yet
>
> Austin W.
> Product Manager
> Powercode
> 801.701.6200
> www.powercode.com
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:15 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>
> It's a long and quite off topic discussion to hash this out.
>
> But to suggest that "not trusting government" is the equivalent of being 
> an
> advocate to anarchy is absurd.
>
> The MOST corrupt and self serving institution in this country is Congress.
> After you've figured that out, it begins to make sense why our founding
> fathers said that "eternal vigilance is the price of liberty".It's 
> also
> the price of just continuing to exist.
>
> Nowhere, at no time have I advocated anarchy, or anything remotely similar
> to it.   But, that's the repeated meme, probably just to squelch the
> conversation.   But I have noticed a very serious trend.  It seems that
> people mistake a cordial working relationship with "security of ideas or
> status quo" in DC.   There's no such thing.   Assurances of future events 
> or
>
> favors or policies is absolutely NOT something you can put any faith in.
> Those change like the wind.   Those very people you think might be
> influenced to be on your side, are just as likely to write a rule and
> enforce it which kills the whole industry, if it can earn them a headline
> that makes them look good.
>
> Does that make them "evil".   No, it makes them politicians, operating in
> both a political culture and a society that has accepted this behavior as
> normal.
>
> To use this pollyanna type of attitude that does anything but recognize 
> the
> serious danger that government poses to the welfare of the people is to be
> foolish.   What may influence them today, can completely vanish with the
> headlines of tomorrow's newspaper, and efforts to influence policymakers 
> or
> work out some kind "tit for tat" or quid pro quo can vanish faster than 
> dry
> ice in a blast furnace.   We must never allow our future to be dependent
> upon the whims of regulators.
>
> What is needed, is to get in writing, to get codified, the means by which 
> we
>
> can exist unmolested, and then after that point, to then seek to convince
> them that certian policies can do good and others do not.   My complaint 
> is
> that I see nobody defending our ability to exist, while at the same time,
> trading on "goodwill" to get favors and money.   That's a terrible 
> mistake,
> in my estimation.  A fundamental and near fatal flaw which can do nothing
> but harm us in the long run.The attitudinal change in DC that's about 
> to
>
> occur, is that they not only have the right, but the OBLIGATION to choose
> who exists and who does not.   Who wins, who loses, and the primary
> motivation is now to take from industry to give to the people in exchange
> for votes.  If you don't think that can destroy us, I dunno what you think
> can.
>
> Seriously, every industry has descended on Washington DC with their 
> buckets
> in hand, lined up behind the spigots.  Our secret here, is not to be an
> "also ran" but stand out.  We don't need handouts.  We're citizens first,
> taxpayers second, and businesses third.  Be responsible adults, stand out
> like a beacon already.   Advocate for industry subsidy and whatnot to END.
> Be a voice of reason in today's mad rush to insanity...
>
> Please.
>
> Our nation's future depends on being men and women of character and
> integrity and being responsible, and differentiate ourselves from the big
> guys with  the big buckets demanding money.   Contrast us to them.  We 
> can.
> They can't.  Exploit their wanting money.   If there was EVER a time an
> industry could make an impact, by showing up and saying " We're here to
> build up the country, don't need subsidies and handouts, and these guys 
> are
> advocating for it, we are not, and don't think they should either", this 
> is
> it.  "We're here and doing what needs to be done.  We just need some 
> hurdles
>
> cleared" is far more a worthy goal, and likely to stand out, than to be
> centered in the policywonking that's aimed at "getting a slice of the 
> pie".
>
> Is this political?   I suppose it is in some way.  But no more or less 
> than
> the "argue a 

[WISPA] Too many awkward cricket chirps coming from the list...

[Austin Wright]

I know this is a bit off topic as well but...Happy Holidays everyone!

From, The Powercode Team

--Please contact me off list if you would like to argue which holiday is the
best--  :)
My top three are as follows:
1. Christmas
2. Arbor Day (I'm not a 'tree hugger' but we don't like ANYTHING
paper-related at Powercode haha)
3. My birthday, not a national holiday...yet

Austin W.
Product Manager
Powercode
801.701.6200
www.powercode.com

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:15 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article

It's a long and quite off topic discussion to hash this out.

But to suggest that "not trusting government" is the equivalent of being an 
advocate to anarchy is absurd.

The MOST corrupt and self serving institution in this country is Congress. 
After you've figured that out, it begins to make sense why our founding 
fathers said that "eternal vigilance is the price of liberty".It's also 
the price of just continuing to exist.

Nowhere, at no time have I advocated anarchy, or anything remotely similar 
to it.   But, that's the repeated meme, probably just to squelch the 
conversation.   But I have noticed a very serious trend.  It seems that 
people mistake a cordial working relationship with "security of ideas or 
status quo" in DC.   There's no such thing.   Assurances of future events or

favors or policies is absolutely NOT something you can put any faith in. 
Those change like the wind.   Those very people you think might be 
influenced to be on your side, are just as likely to write a rule and 
enforce it which kills the whole industry, if it can earn them a headline 
that makes them look good.

Does that make them "evil".   No, it makes them politicians, operating in 
both a political culture and a society that has accepted this behavior as 
normal.

To use this pollyanna type of attitude that does anything but recognize the 
serious danger that government poses to the welfare of the people is to be 
foolish.   What may influence them today, can completely vanish with the 
headlines of tomorrow's newspaper, and efforts to influence policymakers or 
work out some kind "tit for tat" or quid pro quo can vanish faster than dry 
ice in a blast furnace.   We must never allow our future to be dependent 
upon the whims of regulators.

What is needed, is to get in writing, to get codified, the means by which we

can exist unmolested, and then after that point, to then seek to convince 
them that certian policies can do good and others do not.   My complaint is 
that I see nobody defending our ability to exist, while at the same time, 
trading on "goodwill" to get favors and money.   That's a terrible mistake, 
in my estimation.  A fundamental and near fatal flaw which can do nothing 
but harm us in the long run.The attitudinal change in DC that's about to

occur, is that they not only have the right, but the OBLIGATION to choose 
who exists and who does not.   Who wins, who loses, and the primary 
motivation is now to take from industry to give to the people in exchange 
for votes.  If you don't think that can destroy us, I dunno what you think 
can.

Seriously, every industry has descended on Washington DC with their buckets 
in hand, lined up behind the spigots.  Our secret here, is not to be an 
"also ran" but stand out.  We don't need handouts.  We're citizens first, 
taxpayers second, and businesses third.  Be responsible adults, stand out 
like a beacon already.   Advocate for industry subsidy and whatnot to END. 
Be a voice of reason in today's mad rush to insanity...

Please.

Our nation's future depends on being men and women of character and 
integrity and being responsible, and differentiate ourselves from the big 
guys with  the big buckets demanding money.   Contrast us to them.  We can. 
They can't.  Exploit their wanting money.   If there was EVER a time an 
industry could make an impact, by showing up and saying " We're here to 
build up the country, don't need subsidies and handouts, and these guys are 
advocating for it, we are not, and don't think they should either", this is 
it.  "We're here and doing what needs to be done.  We just need some hurdles

cleared" is far more a worthy goal, and likely to stand out, than to be 
centered in the policywonking that's aimed at "getting a slice of the pie".

Is this political?   I suppose it is in some way.  But no more or less than 
the "argue a position to possibly benefit from loans and grants" that's been

repeated here.

OH, but I forgot.  That's too extreme for "normal" people.

Thank God those "extreme" people had some guts way back when.   I just wish 
to honor them and the enduring ideas they left for us.   They're not out of 
date yet.




- Original Message - 
From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: 

Re: [WISPA] Billing and process management system

[Cliff Olle]

Will it be able to do a topographic view like delorme does as well for new
customers?

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of John McDowell
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 2:25 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Billing and process management system

Here is a screenshot of my company's RF mapping integration with Powercode.
Brian Webster (www.wirelessmapping.com) provides the mapping service and we
have overlaid his map into the GoogleMaps interface that's already built
into Powercode (www.powercode.com), complete with all types of customers and
infrastructure. Here's a cool feature, you can click on any of the pins and
it pulls up that customer's contact information, which is all hyperlinked
directly to your version of Powercode.

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:26 AM, Tom DeReggi
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> Tim,
>
> Now that you have made your shameless self promotion sales pitch :-)  
> I thought I'd scrutinize your comments, palying devils advocate :-)
>
> I have not looked at your BOSS software or Firmwre, so I am asking 
> blind at this point. But I am interested in your perspective, since 
> you are interested in WISP markets.
>
> > AP and CPE devices will need to use our firmware but once installed 
> > can be managed from anywhere. We currently have our firmware ported 
> > to half a dozen devices and we're working on adding more ports all 
> > the time.
>
> The above was the key comment that got my attention, and how that 
> would reflect the reality of what could be a viable target market..
>
> Is it really realistic to "use a BOSS provider's Firmware on APs and
CPEs"?
> Come on WISPs have graduated basic Wifi APs and CPEs. It has taken 
> almost a decade for the Firmware leaders of today to develop feature 
> rich products that WISPs can actually count on working well enough for 
> commercial deployment. (examples... Mikrotik, StarOS, Ligowave, etc).
> Why would a WISP risk a tried and true solution to convert to 
> something new, just for integration into a BOSS system? Could they 
> risk that?  Thats like going to a CLEC provider and saying... "We have 
> this new BOSS system, would you mind just throwing away all your 
> CISCOs.".  Generally what WISPs would want more is a BOSS system that 
> could integrate will all their pre-eixsting diverse product lines. As 
> a WISP, we all know there are a lot of tools in the toolbox, and there 
> is the right tool for each type of job. Even the WISPs most religious 
> to staying true to one brand have branched out to use many different 
> product lines, because technical reasons and differences in their 
> technology forced them to, if they wanted to stay competitive.  I 
> would find it more viable to have a "agent" application that could be 
> integrated into pre-existing OS, to add compatibility. (although that 
> could also be a huge task technically, and politically also)
>
> When a BOSS requires its own Firmware for devices, it usually means 
> that the WISPs will now need two BOSS systems. One for their new 
> proprietary system, and one for all their other stuff. That means 
> duplication of ALL costs.
> Labor, hardware, CC processing, learning curve, documentation, etc, 
> etc. So teh service subscribption could no longer be justified as a 
> time saver, as it would be yet another application "added" to the list 
> to manage.  Also note a platform change is not jsut a technology 
> change, it is also a process change.
>
> Do not misunderstand me, I am NOT Bashing your product. I'm just 
> sharing the first thoughts that came to my mind, when I don't yet 
> understand your product, and it would potentually be a thought likely 
> to cross other WISP's minds.
>
> How do you feel your product, will or could fit into an existing 
> WISP's operation?  And what processes/features could be extended to 
> pre-existing models?
> To be more politically correct, this is a question not necessarilly 
> directed specifically to your product, but any product that offers a 
> more narrow specialized management solution (such as HotSpot) to 
> integrate into an exist provider's network of any type.
>
> A trend I see is many vendors are providing RMS systems for their 
> radio firmware platforms. (I'll spare you the list, but atleast 10 I 
> could name off teh top of my head). However, most are jsut compatible 
> with their own product, which takes away a large part of the value 
> proposition for many WISPs.  I personally, see 2009 and 2010 being 
> about increasing BOSS's compatibilty to encompass a much larger models 
> and products.  The analogy I like to use is looking at a company like 
> at  Comcast or a Verizon. Would they give their support staff 5 
> different OSS platforms to manage all the peices of their network? 
> WISPS are growing, and there is a dream for one platform that does it 
> all, and it will be even more importnat as teh roll ups occur. Or will it
be a technical impossibi

Re: [WISPA] Article

[reader]

It's a long and quite off topic discussion to hash this out.

But to suggest that "not trusting government" is the equivalent of being an 
advocate to anarchy is absurd.

The MOST corrupt and self serving institution in this country is Congress. 
After you've figured that out, it begins to make sense why our founding 
fathers said that "eternal vigilance is the price of liberty".It's also 
the price of just continuing to exist.

Nowhere, at no time have I advocated anarchy, or anything remotely similar 
to it.   But, that's the repeated meme, probably just to squelch the 
conversation.   But I have noticed a very serious trend.  It seems that 
people mistake a cordial working relationship with "security of ideas or 
status quo" in DC.   There's no such thing.   Assurances of future events or 
favors or policies is absolutely NOT something you can put any faith in. 
Those change like the wind.   Those very people you think might be 
influenced to be on your side, are just as likely to write a rule and 
enforce it which kills the whole industry, if it can earn them a headline 
that makes them look good.

Does that make them "evil".   No, it makes them politicians, operating in 
both a political culture and a society that has accepted this behavior as 
normal.

To use this pollyanna type of attitude that does anything but recognize the 
serious danger that government poses to the welfare of the people is to be 
foolish.   What may influence them today, can completely vanish with the 
headlines of tomorrow's newspaper, and efforts to influence policymakers or 
work out some kind "tit for tat" or quid pro quo can vanish faster than dry 
ice in a blast furnace.   We must never allow our future to be dependent 
upon the whims of regulators.

What is needed, is to get in writing, to get codified, the means by which we 
can exist unmolested, and then after that point, to then seek to convince 
them that certian policies can do good and others do not.   My complaint is 
that I see nobody defending our ability to exist, while at the same time, 
trading on "goodwill" to get favors and money.   That's a terrible mistake, 
in my estimation.  A fundamental and near fatal flaw which can do nothing 
but harm us in the long run.The attitudinal change in DC that's about to 
occur, is that they not only have the right, but the OBLIGATION to choose 
who exists and who does not.   Who wins, who loses, and the primary 
motivation is now to take from industry to give to the people in exchange 
for votes.  If you don't think that can destroy us, I dunno what you think 
can.

Seriously, every industry has descended on Washington DC with their buckets 
in hand, lined up behind the spigots.  Our secret here, is not to be an 
"also ran" but stand out.  We don't need handouts.  We're citizens first, 
taxpayers second, and businesses third.  Be responsible adults, stand out 
like a beacon already.   Advocate for industry subsidy and whatnot to END. 
Be a voice of reason in today's mad rush to insanity...

Please.

Our nation's future depends on being men and women of character and 
integrity and being responsible, and differentiate ourselves from the big 
guys with  the big buckets demanding money.   Contrast us to them.  We can. 
They can't.  Exploit their wanting money.   If there was EVER a time an 
industry could make an impact, by showing up and saying " We're here to 
build up the country, don't need subsidies and handouts, and these guys are 
advocating for it, we are not, and don't think they should either", this is 
it.  "We're here and doing what needs to be done.  We just need some hurdles 
cleared" is far more a worthy goal, and likely to stand out, than to be 
centered in the policywonking that's aimed at "getting a slice of the pie".

Is this political?   I suppose it is in some way.  But no more or less than 
the "argue a position to possibly benefit from loans and grants" that's been 
repeated here.

OH, but I forgot.  That's too extreme for "normal" people.

Thank God those "extreme" people had some guts way back when.   I just wish 
to honor them and the enduring ideas they left for us.   They're not out of 
date yet.




- Original Message - 
From: "3-dB Networks" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 2:01 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article


>> If you're trying to convince me that DC is my friend, or that government
>> can
>> be trusted in the slightest... good luck  There's a whole world history 
>> to
>> prove that notion the b iggest folly ever committed by man.
>
> I have to ask... do you really think Anarchy is the answer?  That 
> everything
> the government does is wrong?  That the government is suppressing your
> rights?  I'd respond line by line but I am sure Butch will do a much 
> better
> job...
>
> Daniel White
> 3-dB Networks
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>> 

Re: [WISPA] Article

[reader]

Rick, if someone is really seriously interested in looking back, they can 
read the archives.

There's little point in it, really.  I've just been watching for change. 
There has been at least some shift over the years.





- Original Message - 
From: "Rick Harnish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 1:39 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article


> Mark,
>
> I would like you to further elaborate on the following comment for those 
> who
> don't remember or those who were not on the list at the time.  Please
> include the specific examples of this accusation so this person can defend
> what they said "in context".  If that person is me, then I will clarify my
> position to the best of my ability.
>
> "I'm just recalling a specific thread on this list that's now 2 or 3 years
> old, about how this industry will be much better and more representable in
> Washington when it is "mature" and not a whole lot of smaller players.
> Someone who is influential in WISPA was the source of this attitude, too.
>
> This particular person seemed to be embarrassed to consider representing
> this industry as having mom and pop type members."
>
> Respectfully,
> Rick Harnish
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:20 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>
>
> 
> 
>
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>
>
>> On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>
>>>And I won't be.  I was once and put money into WISPA.  When I think
>>>WISPA has the interests of all WISPS in mind when they act, then
>>>I'll financially support it.  When WISPA goes to washington DC and
>>>represents to them, that we actually WANT to be regulated, I cannot
>>
>> When did this ever happen?
>
> It did.  Long ago.   I supported WISPA until someone spilled the beans.
>
>>
>> There are some regulations that are good for WISPs.  Just ONE HUGE
>> example are the regulations that govern the FREE use of spectrum
>> under the Part-15 rules.  It's funny that I've never heard you go
>> off the deep end about THOSE regulations.  Either way, that is one
>> example of a good regulation.
>
> Hmmm... Allowing the people to use a public commodity.  Wow.  I feel so
> privileged.  NOT!  No, the knotheads in DC OWE US THE USE OF IT.
>
> Wow, what a strange concept.   When did we forget, we're the boss and the
> owners, they're the designated stewards?
>
>>
>> In terms of specific impact that WISPA has had that benefits ALL
>> wisp operators (even those like you that don't like regulation)
>> there are 2 MAJOR examples that I will suggest.  You are probably
>> the only one "in the room" who will not like them, but then I
>> suspect you are often in that situation.  The first example is the
>> most recent HUGE WIN for WISPs in the TVWS debates.  I don't know if
>> you noticed, but in the R&O, do a search for "WISPA" and then do a
>> search for "GOOGLE".  You'll quickly see that just based on the
>> number of "mentions" that WISPA had a HUGE impact on the ruling.
>> That spectrum is free for you to use UNLICENSED (NOT UNREGULATED),
>> even if you don't support WISPA.  Another example is CALEA.  I know
>> that in YOUR world, CALEA isn't something that you have to comply
>> with, but the rest of us that live in a world shared by ~300Million
>> other Americans, we DO have to comply.  WISPA could have gone to DC
>> and said "this isn't fair", but it would NOT have changed the law.
>> Moving beyond that, we have developed a REAL solution that is very
>> affordable for ANYONE to follow.  There is currently no software
>> supporting it, but that is under development and will surface in the
>> near future.
>
> Wow.   Effective and reasonable ideas could have been dreamed up and
> proposed and made into law by now.  But nope, we're still determined that
> pounding a square peg into a round hole "just has to be".
>
>>
>> One of the reasons WISPA doesn't take the approaches you suggest is
>> that your ideas are SO far out of line with reality that there is no
>> way to meet you on common ground.  Perhaps the muddy frogs can, but
>> real people cannot.
>
> Why, Thanks  Butch.   I feel ever so much better now.
>
>>
>>>When the attitude that "consolidation and shaking out the smaller
>>>players" is a good thing goes away, then there's on more barrier
>>>down.  It may not be
>>
>> What's bad about building and selling?  You don't like money either?
>
> Hmmm...  words have a specific meaning, I said precisely what I meant.
> When the attitude that the smaller players need to go away is shaken out 
> of
> WISPA, that will be a good thing.
>
>>
>>>Sorry, you lost me with that one.  Small business and "mom and pop

Re: [WISPA] Article

[3-dB Networks]

> If you're trying to convince me that DC is my friend, or that government
> can
> be trusted in the slightest... good luck  There's a whole world history to
> prove that notion the b iggest folly ever committed by man.

I have to ask... do you really think Anarchy is the answer?  That everything
the government does is wrong?  That the government is suppressing your
rights?  I'd respond line by line but I am sure Butch will do a much better
job...

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 2:20 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:44 PM
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
> 
> 
> > On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >
> >>And I won't be.  I was once and put money into WISPA.  When I think
> >>WISPA has the interests of all WISPS in mind when they act, then
> >>I'll financially support it.  When WISPA goes to washington DC and
> >>represents to them, that we actually WANT to be regulated, I cannot
> >
> > When did this ever happen?
> 
> It did.  Long ago.   I supported WISPA until someone spilled the beans.
> 
> >
> > There are some regulations that are good for WISPs.  Just ONE HUGE
> > example are the regulations that govern the FREE use of spectrum
> > under the Part-15 rules.  It's funny that I've never heard you go
> > off the deep end about THOSE regulations.  Either way, that is one
> > example of a good regulation.
> 
> Hmmm... Allowing the people to use a public commodity.  Wow.  I feel so
> privileged.  NOT!  No, the knotheads in DC OWE US THE USE OF IT.
> 
> Wow, what a strange concept.   When did we forget, we're the boss and the
> owners, they're the designated stewards?
> 
> >
> > In terms of specific impact that WISPA has had that benefits ALL
> > wisp operators (even those like you that don't like regulation)
> > there are 2 MAJOR examples that I will suggest.  You are probably
> > the only one "in the room" who will not like them, but then I
> > suspect you are often in that situation.  The first example is the
> > most recent HUGE WIN for WISPs in the TVWS debates.  I don't know if
> > you noticed, but in the R&O, do a search for "WISPA" and then do a
> > search for "GOOGLE".  You'll quickly see that just based on the
> > number of "mentions" that WISPA had a HUGE impact on the ruling.
> > That spectrum is free for you to use UNLICENSED (NOT UNREGULATED),
> > even if you don't support WISPA.  Another example is CALEA.  I know
> > that in YOUR world, CALEA isn't something that you have to comply
> > with, but the rest of us that live in a world shared by ~300Million
> > other Americans, we DO have to comply.  WISPA could have gone to DC
> > and said "this isn't fair", but it would NOT have changed the law.
> > Moving beyond that, we have developed a REAL solution that is very
> > affordable for ANYONE to follow.  There is currently no software
> > supporting it, but that is under development and will surface in the
> > near future.
> 
> Wow.   Effective and reasonable ideas could have been dreamed up and
> proposed and made into law by now.  But nope, we're still determined that
> pounding a square peg into a round hole "just has to be".
> 
> >
> > One of the reasons WISPA doesn't take the approaches you suggest is
> > that your ideas are SO far out of line with reality that there is no
> > way to meet you on common ground.  Perhaps the muddy frogs can, but
> > real people cannot.
> 
> Why, Thanks  Butch.   I feel ever so much better now.
> 
> >
> >>When the attitude that "consolidation and shaking out the smaller
> >>players" is a good thing goes away, then there's on more barrier
> >>down.  It may not be
> >
> > What's bad about building and selling?  You don't like money either?
> 
> Hmmm...  words have a specific meaning, I said precisely what I meant.
> When the attitude that the smaller players need to go away is shaken out
> of
> WISPA, that will be a good thing.
> 
> >
> >>Sorry, you lost me with that one.  Small business and "mom and pop"
> >>are the backbone of our economy and make up a huge segment of all
> >>the jobs in the whole country.
> >
> > Yeah..my "mom and pop" raised me and fed me, but if I can find a way
> > to move my "mom and pop" operation into something bigger, then why
> > is that bad?  Look at companies like McDonalds, Wendy's and even
> > WAL-MART.  These companies were ALL "mom and pop" operations at one
> > time.  Personally, I'd not complain if my business grew to the size
> > of any one of those examples.  There are examples just like this in
> > the WISP industry, but I'll leave that as an exercise for you to
> > find.
> 
> LOL, how'd you ever construe what I said into being against people
> building
> whatever 

Re: [WISPA] Article

[Rick Harnish]

Mark,

I would like you to further elaborate on the following comment for those who
don't remember or those who were not on the list at the time.  Please
include the specific examples of this accusation so this person can defend
what they said "in context".  If that person is me, then I will clarify my
position to the best of my ability.

"I'm just recalling a specific thread on this list that's now 2 or 3 years 
old, about how this industry will be much better and more representable in 
Washington when it is "mature" and not a whole lot of smaller players. 
Someone who is influential in WISPA was the source of this attitude, too.

This particular person seemed to be embarrassed to consider representing 
this industry as having mom and pop type members."

Respectfully,
Rick Harnish

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:20 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article





- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article


> On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>>And I won't be.  I was once and put money into WISPA.  When I think
>>WISPA has the interests of all WISPS in mind when they act, then
>>I'll financially support it.  When WISPA goes to washington DC and
>>represents to them, that we actually WANT to be regulated, I cannot
>
> When did this ever happen?

It did.  Long ago.   I supported WISPA until someone spilled the beans.

>
> There are some regulations that are good for WISPs.  Just ONE HUGE
> example are the regulations that govern the FREE use of spectrum
> under the Part-15 rules.  It's funny that I've never heard you go
> off the deep end about THOSE regulations.  Either way, that is one
> example of a good regulation.

Hmmm... Allowing the people to use a public commodity.  Wow.  I feel so 
privileged.  NOT!  No, the knotheads in DC OWE US THE USE OF IT.

Wow, what a strange concept.   When did we forget, we're the boss and the 
owners, they're the designated stewards?

>
> In terms of specific impact that WISPA has had that benefits ALL
> wisp operators (even those like you that don't like regulation)
> there are 2 MAJOR examples that I will suggest.  You are probably
> the only one "in the room" who will not like them, but then I
> suspect you are often in that situation.  The first example is the
> most recent HUGE WIN for WISPs in the TVWS debates.  I don't know if
> you noticed, but in the R&O, do a search for "WISPA" and then do a
> search for "GOOGLE".  You'll quickly see that just based on the
> number of "mentions" that WISPA had a HUGE impact on the ruling.
> That spectrum is free for you to use UNLICENSED (NOT UNREGULATED),
> even if you don't support WISPA.  Another example is CALEA.  I know
> that in YOUR world, CALEA isn't something that you have to comply
> with, but the rest of us that live in a world shared by ~300Million
> other Americans, we DO have to comply.  WISPA could have gone to DC
> and said "this isn't fair", but it would NOT have changed the law.
> Moving beyond that, we have developed a REAL solution that is very
> affordable for ANYONE to follow.  There is currently no software
> supporting it, but that is under development and will surface in the
> near future.

Wow.   Effective and reasonable ideas could have been dreamed up and 
proposed and made into law by now.  But nope, we're still determined that 
pounding a square peg into a round hole "just has to be".

>
> One of the reasons WISPA doesn't take the approaches you suggest is
> that your ideas are SO far out of line with reality that there is no
> way to meet you on common ground.  Perhaps the muddy frogs can, but
> real people cannot.

Why, Thanks  Butch.   I feel ever so much better now.

>
>>When the attitude that "consolidation and shaking out the smaller
>>players" is a good thing goes away, then there's on more barrier
>>down.  It may not be
>
> What's bad about building and selling?  You don't like money either?

Hmmm...  words have a specific meaning, I said precisely what I meant. 
When the attitude that the smaller players need to go away is shaken out of 
WISPA, that will be a good thing.

>
>>Sorry, you lost me with that one.  Small business and "mom and pop"
>>are the backbone of our economy and make up a huge segment of all
>>the jobs in the whole country.
>
> Yeah..my "mom and pop" raised me and fed me, but if I can find a way
> to move my "mom and pop" operation into something bigger, then why
> is that bad?  Look at companies like McDonalds, Wendy's and even
> WAL-MART.  These companies were ALL "mom and pop" operations at one
> time.  Personally, I'd not complain if my business grew to the size
> of any one of those examples.  There are examples just like this in
> the WISP industry, but I'll leave that as an ex

Re: [WISPA] Article

[Jack Unger]

Jeff, 

I commend you for urging us to keep an open mind and keep open to a
wide range of opinions. I also agree that we should listen to the
opinions of all WISPs, including current non-WISPA members.
Unfortunately Mxxx's normal tone is so negative and so self-righteous
and so arrogant that it turns me OFF therefore I tend to skip over his
posts without reading them. 

I want to try to be open to all the opinions of WISPs who are capable
of forming reasoned opinions but unfortunately there a very few people
who are so self-centered that they are often incapable of expressing
opinions that are useful to anyone except themselves. My time is
limited and I want to spend it in the most productive way possible. 

jack 


Jeff Broadwick wrote:

  I'll disagree with you to a point Butch.  WISPA represents all WISPs
generally and it's members specifically.  I don't agree with a lot that Mark
writes, but he's consistent and he challenges the thought process.  His
opinions should not be weighted more than a member WISP, but listening to
him may help sharpen our message and to appeal to those who don't generally
join organizations like WISPA. 

Regards,

Jeff

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:45 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article

On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, Tom DeReggi wrote:

  
  
I am open to feedback from you, on what your opinions are, so we can 
decide on a WISPA policy for those questions.

  
  
Tom, don't get caught up in arguments with him.  He is not a WISPA member
(unless that's changed) and as such, his opinion is NOT valid in shaping
WISPA policy.  That is a member's right, not his.

--

* Butch Evans			* Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/	* Network Engineering		   *
* http://www.wispa.org/		* WISPA Board Member		   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/	* Wired or Wireless Networks	   *





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-- 
Jack Unger - President, Ask-Wi.Com, Inc.
Serving the Broadband Wireless Industry Since 1993
Cisco Press Author - "Deploying License-Free Wireless WANs"
WISPs - Do you know where your customers are?
For wireless coverage mapping see http://www.ask-wi.com/mapping
FCC Lic. #PG-12-25133 LinkedIn Profile 
Phone 818-227-4220  Email <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>









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Re: [WISPA] Article

[Jack Unger]

What I'm trying to say is that an AP that is capable of 20 Mb when
there is only one customer must share that same 20 Mb between ALL the
customers once more than one customer is connected to it. If one user
draws 5 Mb continually then only 15 Mb remain to be shared with and
between all the remaining customers. If a second user now draws 5 Mb
continually then only 10 Mb remains to be shared by all the other
customers. If four customers are each drawing 5 Mb continually then
there is NO remaining throughput for any of the remaining customers. 


Mike Hammett wrote:

  I do understand how it works.  I also understand (not sure if this is what 
you're getting at) that an AP capable of 20 megabits to a single person may 
not be capable of an aggregate of 20 megabits to 30 people.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:41 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article

  
  
Dear Mike,

You miss the point and possibly so does Josh. Because an AP can deliver
"x" amount of throughput during a speed test between two location does
not mean that the same AP can deliver that amount of throughput to all
the customers simultaneously. The AP's throughput is shared between all
of the end-users. When the AP maxes out, some (possibly all) of those
end-users must slow down. Some WISPs do not understand this and thus
they end up over-promising throughput and disappointing their customers.
WISPs need to understand this or they will fail in this business and
give other WISPs a black eye in the process. Nobody is getting beat up
here; this has nothing to do with personalities. It has everything to do
with the physics of data communications behavior. Everybody needs to
understand the true limits of their system.

Why is this? Because the "air" is a shared medium. Throughput delivery
takes real-world time in intervals we call "time-slots". You can only
carry so much throughput during one time-slot. There area only so many
time-slots (fractions of a second) in each second. This is why
throughput is limited. Only so many users can be on one AP at the same
time if they are requesting a large amount of the available AP
throughput. A lightly-loaded system may appear to be able to deliver max
throughput simultaneously to those few customers but when the AP is
heavily loaded with users who are vying for a lot of throughput
simultaneously then most of them will need to slow down because not
everyone will get all the time slots they need to carry the high
throughput (ex: video streaming) levels that they are requesting.

Don't make this personal; that simply detracts from the very real
technical limits that a successful WISP must understand in order to
succeed and survive.

jack


Mike Hammett wrote:


  I didn't get that at all.

It seems as though when anyone on this list suggests going faster than 2 
megabits, they get beat up.  Sorry, Charlie, BA-II was outdated long ago.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com




From: Jack Unger
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 6:55 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article


So how many of your customers can you serve 26 Mb to SIMULTANEOUSLY from 
the same AP? It sounds like you are saying that you can serve all of them 
26 Mb simultaneously.

Josh Luthman wrote:
Each customer has an MT - capable of 26mbps to their home.  Each tower 
has a
Redline to it, throughput as high as the key purchased (54 megs).

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand Wireless are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Jack Unger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  Josh Luthman wrote:

My 5.8 customers can do 10+ megs...

The estimated throughput on the MTs is 30 to 31 megs.  Real bandwidth 
tests
show 26 megs.


 So do you deploy one MT for each customer or do you share that 26 Mb
between all of your customers on that one access point?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand Wireless are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:40 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



 And which telco is this going to bail out?Money from Congress to
industry = pay off Unions for votes.

We will never, ever, ever, ever qualify.

Another headliner article I read on this will redefine "broadband" as 
over
10 Meg.

Nothing like disqualifying almost the entire WISP industry...







- Original Message -
From: "Rick Harnish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "'WISPA General List'"  
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:20 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article




 Jeff,

Just to let you know, 

Re: [WISPA] Article

[reader]

- Original Message - 
From: "Butch Evans" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article


> On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>>And I won't be.  I was once and put money into WISPA.  When I think
>>WISPA has the interests of all WISPS in mind when they act, then
>>I'll financially support it.  When WISPA goes to washington DC and
>>represents to them, that we actually WANT to be regulated, I cannot
>
> When did this ever happen?

It did.  Long ago.   I supported WISPA until someone spilled the beans.

>
> There are some regulations that are good for WISPs.  Just ONE HUGE
> example are the regulations that govern the FREE use of spectrum
> under the Part-15 rules.  It's funny that I've never heard you go
> off the deep end about THOSE regulations.  Either way, that is one
> example of a good regulation.

Hmmm... Allowing the people to use a public commodity.  Wow.  I feel so 
privileged.  NOT!  No, the knotheads in DC OWE US THE USE OF IT.

Wow, what a strange concept.   When did we forget, we're the boss and the 
owners, they're the designated stewards?

>
> In terms of specific impact that WISPA has had that benefits ALL
> wisp operators (even those like you that don't like regulation)
> there are 2 MAJOR examples that I will suggest.  You are probably
> the only one "in the room" who will not like them, but then I
> suspect you are often in that situation.  The first example is the
> most recent HUGE WIN for WISPs in the TVWS debates.  I don't know if
> you noticed, but in the R&O, do a search for "WISPA" and then do a
> search for "GOOGLE".  You'll quickly see that just based on the
> number of "mentions" that WISPA had a HUGE impact on the ruling.
> That spectrum is free for you to use UNLICENSED (NOT UNREGULATED),
> even if you don't support WISPA.  Another example is CALEA.  I know
> that in YOUR world, CALEA isn't something that you have to comply
> with, but the rest of us that live in a world shared by ~300Million
> other Americans, we DO have to comply.  WISPA could have gone to DC
> and said "this isn't fair", but it would NOT have changed the law.
> Moving beyond that, we have developed a REAL solution that is very
> affordable for ANYONE to follow.  There is currently no software
> supporting it, but that is under development and will surface in the
> near future.

Wow.   Effective and reasonable ideas could have been dreamed up and 
proposed and made into law by now.  But nope, we're still determined that 
pounding a square peg into a round hole "just has to be".

>
> One of the reasons WISPA doesn't take the approaches you suggest is
> that your ideas are SO far out of line with reality that there is no
> way to meet you on common ground.  Perhaps the muddy frogs can, but
> real people cannot.

Why, Thanks  Butch.   I feel ever so much better now.

>
>>When the attitude that "consolidation and shaking out the smaller
>>players" is a good thing goes away, then there's on more barrier
>>down.  It may not be
>
> What's bad about building and selling?  You don't like money either?

Hmmm...  words have a specific meaning, I said precisely what I meant. 
When the attitude that the smaller players need to go away is shaken out of 
WISPA, that will be a good thing.

>
>>Sorry, you lost me with that one.  Small business and "mom and pop"
>>are the backbone of our economy and make up a huge segment of all
>>the jobs in the whole country.
>
> Yeah..my "mom and pop" raised me and fed me, but if I can find a way
> to move my "mom and pop" operation into something bigger, then why
> is that bad?  Look at companies like McDonalds, Wendy's and even
> WAL-MART.  These companies were ALL "mom and pop" operations at one
> time.  Personally, I'd not complain if my business grew to the size
> of any one of those examples.  There are examples just like this in
> the WISP industry, but I'll leave that as an exercise for you to
> find.

LOL, how'd you ever construe what I said into being against people building 
whatever size they want or think they can be?

I'm just recalling a specific thread on this list that's now 2 or 3 years 
old, about how this industry will be much better and more representable in 
Washington when it is "mature" and not a whole lot of smaller players. 
Someone who is influential in WISPA was the source of this attitude, too.

This particular person seemed to be embarrassed to consider representing 
this industry as having mom and pop type members.

>
>>Every other industry organization unabashedly opposes everything
>>that costs them or can harm them, but the leadership continues to
>>insist that somehow playing nice and agreeing to mandates and costs
>>will buy us favor...  All that happens is the mandates and
>>agreements happen, the regulators change and all the "goodwill"
>>supposedly bought evaportes, with the precedents and whatnot
>>remain.  Until they unde

Re: [WISPA] Article

[Butch Evans]

On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>And I won't be.  I was once and put money into WISPA.  When I think 
>WISPA has the interests of all WISPS in mind when they act, then 
>I'll financially support it.  When WISPA goes to washington DC and 
>represents to them, that we actually WANT to be regulated, I cannot

When did this ever happen?  I mean in the world the rest of us live 
in...not just yours.  You seem to only see the negative aspects of 
everything that has been done and NONE of the positive impact. 
NOBODY wants regulation.  It is, however, a fact of life in the 
country we live in.  SOME regulation is actually good.  For example, 
there are limits on our "Freedom of speech".  Those limits are, for 
the most part, good.  Slander, incitement to riot and sharing of 
secret information are just some examples.  Other limits on this 
particular freedom are not necessarily good.  I won't list them 
here, because most of them are either religious or political in 
nature, but you'll be able to think of some examples.  The same 
holds true for other regulations.

There are some regulations that are good for WISPs.  Just ONE HUGE 
example are the regulations that govern the FREE use of spectrum 
under the Part-15 rules.  It's funny that I've never heard you go 
off the deep end about THOSE regulations.  Either way, that is one 
example of a good regulation.

In terms of specific impact that WISPA has had that benefits ALL 
wisp operators (even those like you that don't like regulation) 
there are 2 MAJOR examples that I will suggest.  You are probably 
the only one "in the room" who will not like them, but then I 
suspect you are often in that situation.  The first example is the 
most recent HUGE WIN for WISPs in the TVWS debates.  I don't know if 
you noticed, but in the R&O, do a search for "WISPA" and then do a 
search for "GOOGLE".  You'll quickly see that just based on the 
number of "mentions" that WISPA had a HUGE impact on the ruling. 
That spectrum is free for you to use UNLICENSED (NOT UNREGULATED), 
even if you don't support WISPA.  Another example is CALEA.  I know 
that in YOUR world, CALEA isn't something that you have to comply 
with, but the rest of us that live in a world shared by ~300Million 
other Americans, we DO have to comply.  WISPA could have gone to DC 
and said "this isn't fair", but it would NOT have changed the law. 
Moving beyond that, we have developed a REAL solution that is very 
affordable for ANYONE to follow.  There is currently no software 
supporting it, but that is under development and will surface in the 
near future.

One of the reasons WISPA doesn't take the approaches you suggest is 
that your ideas are SO far out of line with reality that there is no 
way to meet you on common ground.  Perhaps the muddy frogs can, but 
real people cannot.

>When the attitude that "consolidation and shaking out the smaller 
>players" is a good thing goes away, then there's on more barrier 
>down.  It may not be

What's bad about building and selling?  You don't like money either?

>Sorry, you lost me with that one.  Small business and "mom and pop" 
>are the backbone of our economy and make up a huge segment of all 
>the jobs in the whole country.

Yeah..my "mom and pop" raised me and fed me, but if I can find a way 
to move my "mom and pop" operation into something bigger, then why 
is that bad?  Look at companies like McDonalds, Wendy's and even 
WAL-MART.  These companies were ALL "mom and pop" operations at one 
time.  Personally, I'd not complain if my business grew to the size 
of any one of those examples.  There are examples just like this in 
the WISP industry, but I'll leave that as an exercise for you to 
find.

>Every other industry organization unabashedly opposes everything 
>that costs them or can harm them, but the leadership continues to 
>insist that somehow playing nice and agreeing to mandates and costs 
>will buy us favor...  All that happens is the mandates and 
>agreements happen, the regulators change and all the "goodwill" 
>supposedly bought evaportes, with the precedents and whatnot 
>remain.  Until they understand that Washington DC is NEVER our 
>friend, never to be trusted, then we're just sheep waiting to get 
>shorn.

This is just not correct.  I'm not going to try to correct you on 
it, but wanted it to be in the archives for anyone who is interested 
to know that the TRUTH (of which your messages was NOT an example) 
is available in the archives.

>Sorry, that's just my opinion and it's not subject to "revision and 
>extension".

If you were to revise your opinions, how would we all know what we 
were doing wrong?  Please...never change for the sake of us all...

>And no, don't tell me to "run for WISPA office".

I don't think I've EVER seen anyone ask you for this.  Besides, as a 
non-member you can't.  If you decided to join and you think your 
opinions are held by even a small group of people, and that you CAN 
convince the other boar

Re: [WISPA] Billing and process management system

[Josh Luthman]

You pay per antenna/tower, then a transformation fee from KML to Google
Maps.  Contact information is here:

http://www.wirelessmapping.com/contact_information_for_wirelessmapping.htm

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 3:37 PM, Brian Rohrbacher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

>  What is the cost per subscriber for all this?
>
> John McDowell wrote:
>
> Here is a screenshot of my company's RF mapping integration with Powercode.
> Brian Webster (www.wirelessmapping.com) provides the mapping service and we
> have overlaid his map into the GoogleMaps interface that's already built
> into Powercode (www.powercode.com), complete with all types of customers and
> infrastructure. Here's a cool feature, you can click on any of the pins and
> it pulls up that customer's contact information, which is all hyperlinked
> directly to your version of Powercode.
>
> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 11:26 AM, Tom DeReggi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL 
> PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
>
>
>  Tim,
>
> Now that you have made your shameless self promotion sales pitch :-)  I
> thought I'd scrutinize your comments, palying devils advocate :-)
>
> I have not looked at your BOSS software or Firmwre, so I am asking blind at
> this point. But I am interested in your perspective, since you are
> interested in WISP markets.
>
>
>
>  AP and CPE devices will need to use our firmware but
> once installed can be managed from anywhere. We currently have our
> firmware
> ported to half a dozen devices and we're working on adding more ports all
> the time.
>
>
>  The above was the key comment that got my attention, and how that would
> reflect the reality of what could be a viable target market..
>
> Is it really realistic to "use a BOSS provider's Firmware on APs and CPEs"?
> Come on WISPs have graduated basic Wifi APs and CPEs. It has taken
> almost a decade for the Firmware leaders of today to develop feature rich
> products that WISPs can actually count on working well enough for
> commercial
> deployment. (examples... Mikrotik, StarOS, Ligowave, etc).
> Why would a WISP risk a tried and true solution to convert to something
> new,
> just for integration into a BOSS system? Could they risk that?  Thats like
> going to a CLEC provider and saying... "We have this new BOSS system, would
> you mind just throwing away all your CISCOs.".  Generally what WISPs would
> want more is a BOSS system that could integrate will all their pre-eixsting
> diverse product lines. As a WISP, we all know there are a lot of tools in
> the toolbox, and there is the right tool for each type of job. Even the
> WISPs most religious to staying true to one brand have branched out to use
> many different product lines, because technical reasons and differences in
> their technology forced them to, if they wanted to stay competitive.  I
> would find it more viable to have a "agent" application that could be
> integrated into pre-existing OS, to add compatibility. (although that could
> also be a huge task technically, and politically also)
>
> When a BOSS requires its own Firmware for devices, it usually means that
> the
> WISPs will now need two BOSS systems. One for their new proprietary system,
> and one for all their other stuff. That means duplication of ALL costs.
> Labor, hardware, CC processing, learning curve, documentation, etc, etc. So
> teh service subscribption could no longer be justified as a time saver, as
> it would be yet another application "added" to the list to manage.  Also
> note a platform change is not jsut a technology change, it is also a
> process
> change.
>
> Do not misunderstand me, I am NOT Bashing your product. I'm just sharing
> the
> first thoughts that came to my mind, when I don't yet understand your
> product, and it would potentually be a thought likely to cross other WISP's
> minds.
>
> How do you feel your product, will or could fit into an existing WISP's
> operation?  And what processes/features could be extended to pre-existing
> models?
> To be more politically correct, this is a question not necessarilly
> directed
> specifically to your product, but any product that offers a more narrow
> specialized management solution (such as HotSpot) to integrate into an
> exist
> provider's network of any type.
>
> A trend I see is many vendors are providing RMS systems for their radio
> firmware platforms. (I'll spare you the list, but atleast 10 I could name
> off teh top of my head). However, most are jsut compatible with their own
> product, which takes away a large part of the value proposition for many
> WISPs.  I personally, see 2009 and 2010 being about increasing BOSS's
> compatibilty to encompass a much larger models and products.  The analogy I
> like to use is looking at a company like at  Comcast or a Verizon. Would
> they give their support staff 5 different OSS platforms 

Re: [WISPA] Article

[reader]

>From small minds come small ideas.







- Original Message - 
From: "Bob Moldashel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:38 AM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article


> Wow...OK   Who peed in the Muddy Water and hit the Frog?
>
> Sheesh...
>
> -B-
>
>
>
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>> And I won't be.   I was once and put money into WISPA.When I think 
>> WISPA
>> has the interests of all WISPS in mind when they act, then I'll 
>> financially
>> support it.   When WISPA goes to washington DC and represents to them, 
>> that
>> we actually WANT to be regulated, I cannot support them.   When WISPA
>> consistently fights FOR all of us, and not just the narrow interests of
>> those who want federal money or whatever, then I may again support WISPA
>> financially.
>>
>> When the attitude that "consolidation and shaking out the smaller 
>> players"
>> is a good thing goes away, then there's on more barrier down.  It may not 
>> be
>> official, but people who make decisions in WISPA have said that in the 
>> past.
>> Sorry, you lost me with that one.  Small business and "mom and pop" are 
>> the
>> backbone of our economy and make up a huge segment of all the jobs in the
>> whole country.
>>
>> Every other industry organization unabashedly opposes everything that 
>> costs
>> them or can harm them, but the leadership continues to insist that 
>> somehow
>> playing nice and agreeing to mandates and costs will buy us favor... 
>> All
>> that happens is the mandates and agreements happen, the regulators change
>> and all the "goodwill" supposedly bought evaportes, with the precedents 
>> and
>> whatnot remain.  Until they understand that Washington DC is NEVER our
>> friend, never to be trusted, then we're just sheep waiting to get shorn.
>>
>> Until this fundamental approach changes, no way in good conscience can I 
>> put
>> my name on what they do or give them money.
>>
>>
>> Sorry, that's just my opinion and it's not subject to "revision and
>> extension".
>>
>> This same attitude is going on still.   WISPA leadership is still talking
>> about trying to out maneuver the big boys so as to make grants and loans
>> available.   Cripes.  Yeah, like we're ever going to win the arm twisting
>> contest to bend it in our direction?   We don't collectively have that 
>> much
>> money or lobbyists tin DC to get our names to the top of the rolodexes. 
>> We
>> cannot win that fight with those rules.
>>
>> We have got to start selling the value of a thriving and diverse industry
>> that exists solely due to lack of regulation and lack of governmental
>> interference and that the big players cannot play our game effectively 
>> and
>> that betting on the big guys is like buying Enron or Lehman stock.   We 
>> will
>> never be the providers to the masses, but there can never be affordable
>> ubiquitous broadband without us.
>>
>> That might take some thought and creativity to compose the narration and 
>> it
>> might take some skill to sell, but there's simply no rebuttal from 
>> Verizon
>> that FIOS is ever going to make a lick of sense in a wide array of 
>> places.
>> Or that in an era when Congress really, REALLY needs to get their fiscal 
>> act
>> in order, that blowing vast sums to reach few people makes sense.
>>
>> It has to be about selling the value of who and what you are and why you
>> are, not out muscling the big guys for a slice of pie.   That can't be 
>> won.
>> Further, it obliterations the differences between us and them.   That
>> DIFFERENCE is our strength, not our weakness.  If you're not thinking in
>> those terms, then some re-thinking needs to happen.
>>
>> What will attract membership is a consistent, clear message about how we
>> have and are building a thriving and healthy industry, even in these
>> economic times, due to the fact that WE ARE NOT THEM and then selling
>> exactly who we are.   The people coming back form DC need to talking 
>> about
>> how they sold us so well that when we say we need protection from 
>> mandates
>> and expensive intrusions, that they listened.   The idea of going to DC 
>> and
>> being a "we threw a toothpick in the cogs of the big guys and got some 
>> money
>> for us" is self defeating.
>>
>> We need to be proactive, not reactive, we need a coherent message and a
>> coherent brand.  We need to be defensive of the very thing that makes it
>> possible for our numbers to multiply - freedom to do business without
>> regulatory overhead.   We need to not be attempting to joust with the 
>> cable
>> operators and telcos over what they want.  We need to present something 
>> more
>> compelling than "feed our gaping maw so we c an continue our mediocre
>> performance" that the othe guys play.
>>
>> And no, don't tell me to "run for WISPA office".   Agitators like myself
>> don't win popularity contests.  Besides, I won't put my name on the
>> organization until it changes.   I prefer

Re: [WISPA] Article

[Bob Moldashel]

Wow...OK   Who peed in the Muddy Water and hit the Frog?

Sheesh...

-B-




[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> And I won't be.   I was once and put money into WISPA.When I think WISPA 
> has the interests of all WISPS in mind when they act, then I'll financially 
> support it.   When WISPA goes to washington DC and represents to them, that 
> we actually WANT to be regulated, I cannot support them.   When WISPA 
> consistently fights FOR all of us, and not just the narrow interests of 
> those who want federal money or whatever, then I may again support WISPA 
> financially.
>
> When the attitude that "consolidation and shaking out the smaller players" 
> is a good thing goes away, then there's on more barrier down.  It may not be 
> official, but people who make decisions in WISPA have said that in the past. 
> Sorry, you lost me with that one.  Small business and "mom and pop" are the 
> backbone of our economy and make up a huge segment of all the jobs in the 
> whole country.
>
> Every other industry organization unabashedly opposes everything that costs 
> them or can harm them, but the leadership continues to insist that somehow 
> playing nice and agreeing to mandates and costs will buy us favor...   All 
> that happens is the mandates and agreements happen, the regulators change 
> and all the "goodwill" supposedly bought evaportes, with the precedents and 
> whatnot remain.  Until they understand that Washington DC is NEVER our 
> friend, never to be trusted, then we're just sheep waiting to get shorn.
>
> Until this fundamental approach changes, no way in good conscience can I put 
> my name on what they do or give them money.
>
>
> Sorry, that's just my opinion and it's not subject to "revision and 
> extension".
>
> This same attitude is going on still.   WISPA leadership is still talking 
> about trying to out maneuver the big boys so as to make grants and loans 
> available.   Cripes.  Yeah, like we're ever going to win the arm twisting 
> contest to bend it in our direction?   We don't collectively have that much 
> money or lobbyists tin DC to get our names to the top of the rolodexes.   We 
> cannot win that fight with those rules.
>
> We have got to start selling the value of a thriving and diverse industry 
> that exists solely due to lack of regulation and lack of governmental 
> interference and that the big players cannot play our game effectively and 
> that betting on the big guys is like buying Enron or Lehman stock.   We will 
> never be the providers to the masses, but there can never be affordable 
> ubiquitous broadband without us.
>
> That might take some thought and creativity to compose the narration and it 
> might take some skill to sell, but there's simply no rebuttal from Verizon 
> that FIOS is ever going to make a lick of sense in a wide array of places. 
> Or that in an era when Congress really, REALLY needs to get their fiscal act 
> in order, that blowing vast sums to reach few people makes sense.
>
> It has to be about selling the value of who and what you are and why you 
> are, not out muscling the big guys for a slice of pie.   That can't be won. 
> Further, it obliterations the differences between us and them.   That 
> DIFFERENCE is our strength, not our weakness.  If you're not thinking in 
> those terms, then some re-thinking needs to happen.
>
> What will attract membership is a consistent, clear message about how we 
> have and are building a thriving and healthy industry, even in these 
> economic times, due to the fact that WE ARE NOT THEM and then selling 
> exactly who we are.   The people coming back form DC need to talking about 
> how they sold us so well that when we say we need protection from mandates 
> and expensive intrusions, that they listened.   The idea of going to DC and 
> being a "we threw a toothpick in the cogs of the big guys and got some money 
> for us" is self defeating.
>
> We need to be proactive, not reactive, we need a coherent message and a 
> coherent brand.  We need to be defensive of the very thing that makes it 
> possible for our numbers to multiply - freedom to do business without 
> regulatory overhead.   We need to not be attempting to joust with the cable 
> operators and telcos over what they want.  We need to present something more 
> compelling than "feed our gaping maw so we c an continue our mediocre 
> performance" that the othe guys play.
>
> And no, don't tell me to "run for WISPA office".   Agitators like myself 
> don't win popularity contests.  Besides, I won't put my name on the 
> organization until it changes.   I prefer poking a stick in the hornets 
> nest, to letting stuff go along quietly.   I've never found that emulating 
> someone else is the sure-fire way to beat them.   That is not conducive to 
> winning anything.  Go for the whole banana, go for broke, or don't bother. 
> Lead, follow, or get out of the way...I spent the first half of my life 
> being compliant and found life has gotten 

Re: [WISPA] Article

[reader]

And I won't be.   I was once and put money into WISPA.When I think WISPA 
has the interests of all WISPS in mind when they act, then I'll financially 
support it.   When WISPA goes to washington DC and represents to them, that 
we actually WANT to be regulated, I cannot support them.   When WISPA 
consistently fights FOR all of us, and not just the narrow interests of 
those who want federal money or whatever, then I may again support WISPA 
financially.

When the attitude that "consolidation and shaking out the smaller players" 
is a good thing goes away, then there's on more barrier down.  It may not be 
official, but people who make decisions in WISPA have said that in the past. 
Sorry, you lost me with that one.  Small business and "mom and pop" are the 
backbone of our economy and make up a huge segment of all the jobs in the 
whole country.

Every other industry organization unabashedly opposes everything that costs 
them or can harm them, but the leadership continues to insist that somehow 
playing nice and agreeing to mandates and costs will buy us favor...   All 
that happens is the mandates and agreements happen, the regulators change 
and all the "goodwill" supposedly bought evaportes, with the precedents and 
whatnot remain.  Until they understand that Washington DC is NEVER our 
friend, never to be trusted, then we're just sheep waiting to get shorn.

Until this fundamental approach changes, no way in good conscience can I put 
my name on what they do or give them money.


Sorry, that's just my opinion and it's not subject to "revision and 
extension".

This same attitude is going on still.   WISPA leadership is still talking 
about trying to out maneuver the big boys so as to make grants and loans 
available.   Cripes.  Yeah, like we're ever going to win the arm twisting 
contest to bend it in our direction?   We don't collectively have that much 
money or lobbyists tin DC to get our names to the top of the rolodexes.   We 
cannot win that fight with those rules.

We have got to start selling the value of a thriving and diverse industry 
that exists solely due to lack of regulation and lack of governmental 
interference and that the big players cannot play our game effectively and 
that betting on the big guys is like buying Enron or Lehman stock.   We will 
never be the providers to the masses, but there can never be affordable 
ubiquitous broadband without us.

That might take some thought and creativity to compose the narration and it 
might take some skill to sell, but there's simply no rebuttal from Verizon 
that FIOS is ever going to make a lick of sense in a wide array of places. 
Or that in an era when Congress really, REALLY needs to get their fiscal act 
in order, that blowing vast sums to reach few people makes sense.

It has to be about selling the value of who and what you are and why you 
are, not out muscling the big guys for a slice of pie.   That can't be won. 
Further, it obliterations the differences between us and them.   That 
DIFFERENCE is our strength, not our weakness.  If you're not thinking in 
those terms, then some re-thinking needs to happen.

What will attract membership is a consistent, clear message about how we 
have and are building a thriving and healthy industry, even in these 
economic times, due to the fact that WE ARE NOT THEM and then selling 
exactly who we are.   The people coming back form DC need to talking about 
how they sold us so well that when we say we need protection from mandates 
and expensive intrusions, that they listened.   The idea of going to DC and 
being a "we threw a toothpick in the cogs of the big guys and got some money 
for us" is self defeating.

We need to be proactive, not reactive, we need a coherent message and a 
coherent brand.  We need to be defensive of the very thing that makes it 
possible for our numbers to multiply - freedom to do business without 
regulatory overhead.   We need to not be attempting to joust with the cable 
operators and telcos over what they want.  We need to present something more 
compelling than "feed our gaping maw so we c an continue our mediocre 
performance" that the othe guys play.

And no, don't tell me to "run for WISPA office".   Agitators like myself 
don't win popularity contests.  Besides, I won't put my name on the 
organization until it changes.   I prefer poking a stick in the hornets 
nest, to letting stuff go along quietly.   I've never found that emulating 
someone else is the sure-fire way to beat them.   That is not conducive to 
winning anything.  Go for the whole banana, go for broke, or don't bother. 
Lead, follow, or get out of the way...I spent the first half of my life 
being compliant and found life has gotten too short.   So, love me or hate 
me, but for pity's sakes, grow a spine and act like real men with original 
ideas when you go to lobby DC.   The world is so absent real leadership that 
even the mediocre would stand out if they make an effort these days.

Re: [WISPA] motorola bpl

[Dustin Jurman]

Yes I have,  Even have one installed in my house.  Long Story. What is your
question?

Dustin 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of RC
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 10:16 AM
To: wireless@wispa.org
Subject: [WISPA] motorola bpl

Anyone have any success using Motorola BPL system?




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Re: [WISPA] Article

[Steve Barnes]

Rick, (everyone)

So from that statement it appears that you are not using any bandwidth
limiting ore shaping at your AP or NOC.  
Question 1. Is that for all Client levels or just your premium service.
Question 2. If you don't manage limits, was that always how you've
always done it? If not what made you decide to do it this way and what
kind of upstream hit did you take.

I am considering giving more speed but I am concerned about the
additional cost to me for abusers. 

Steve Barnes
RCWiFi Wireless Internet Service

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of RickG
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 11:04 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article

Every SHOULD know that most connections are "shared bandwidth". The
keyword is SHOULD. But, peole only hear what they want to and everyone
I talk to that isnt a techie thinks they get the speed they bought for
$50 or less all the time! The marketing gurus have screwed up again
just like the "unlimited use" policy fiasco. So, I always try to
educate my users but they percieve this as my issue and that my
service is inferiro with cable or dsl. Of course, thats what feeds the
marketing hype with the speed in the first place. So, what to do?
-RickG

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:41 AM, Jack Unger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear Mike,
>
> You miss the point and possibly so does Josh. Because an AP can
deliver
> "x" amount of throughput during a speed test between two location does
> not mean that the same AP can deliver that amount of throughput to all
> the customers simultaneously. The AP's throughput is shared between
all
> of the end-users. When the AP maxes out, some (possibly all) of those
> end-users must slow down. Some WISPs do not understand this and thus
> they end up over-promising throughput and disappointing their
customers.
> WISPs need to understand this or they will fail in this business and
> give other WISPs a black eye in the process. Nobody is getting beat up
> here; this has nothing to do with personalities. It has everything to
do
> with the physics of data communications behavior. Everybody needs to
> understand the true limits of their system.
>
> Why is this? Because the "air" is a shared medium. Throughput delivery
> takes real-world time in intervals we call "time-slots". You can only
> carry so much throughput during one time-slot. There area only so many
> time-slots (fractions of a second) in each second. This is why
> throughput is limited. Only so many users can be on one AP at the same
> time if they are requesting a large amount of the available AP
> throughput. A lightly-loaded system may appear to be able to deliver
max
> throughput simultaneously to those few customers but when the AP is
> heavily loaded with users who are vying for a lot of throughput
> simultaneously then most of them will need to slow down because not
> everyone will get all the time slots they need to carry the high
> throughput (ex: video streaming) levels that they are requesting.
>
> Don't make this personal; that simply detracts from the very real
> technical limits that a successful WISP must understand in order to
> succeed and survive.
>
> jack
>
>
> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> I didn't get that at all.
>>
>> It seems as though when anyone on this list suggests going faster
than 2 megabits, they get beat up.  Sorry, Charlie, BA-II was outdated
long ago.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Jack Unger
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 6:55 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>>
>>
>> So how many of your customers can you serve 26 Mb to SIMULTANEOUSLY
from the same AP? It sounds like you are saying that you can serve all
of them 26 Mb simultaneously.
>>
>> Josh Luthman wrote:
>> Each customer has an MT - capable of 26mbps to their home.  Each
tower has a
>> Redline to it, throughput as high as the key purchased (54 megs).
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> Those who don't understand Wireless are condemned to reinvent it,
poorly.
>> --- Henry Spencer
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Jack Unger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>   Josh Luthman wrote:
>>
>> My 5.8 customers can do 10+ megs...
>>
>> The estimated throughput on the MTs is 30 to 31 megs.  Real bandwidth
tests
>> show 26 megs.
>>
>>
>>  So do you deploy one MT for each customer or do you share that 26 Mb
>> between all of your customers on that one access point?
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> Those who don't understand Wireless are condemned to reinvent it,
poorly.
>> --- Henry Spencer
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:40 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>  And which telco is this going to bail out?Money from Congress to
>> indus

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[D. Ryan Spott]

I have to agree on this. Even though finding leasing as a small ISP is 
_**VERY**_ difficult, it just makes sense.

I have a few deals that I am cooking right now with 6 figure numbers. I 
was pretty shocked with these big numbers when my finance director 
pointed out that over 10 years, a loan on that amount is only $2 per 
sub/month. Done. This is how the larger players do it. They leverage 1-5 
per sub/month for financing of equipment etc for build-outs. Then they 
can do what they do.

If you get to 1000, or 5000 then you are easily able to finance upgrades 
and roll-outs in the 200-500K range!

(I am not a finance guy, I build these crazy operations so please do not 
do financial analysis on the WAG numbers above!) ;)

ryan

Travis Johnson wrote:
> Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the 
> install fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside 
> down" on every new customer.
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>> You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000 subscribers 
>> things will be a bit better.
>>
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
>> Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>
>>
>>   
>>> I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
>>> WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
>>> that is so often discussed on this list.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
>>> penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
>>> clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
>>> what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
>>> 320 clients.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
>>> Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
>>> speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
>>> of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
>>> Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
>>> another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
>>> 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
>>> you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have started you
>>> service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
>>> know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
>>> boat.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
>>> without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
>>> charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
>>> readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
>>> Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
>>> Verizon.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Steve Barnes
>>>
>>> RC-WiFi.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>> 
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>  
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>>
>>   
> 
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>  
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>
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Re: [WISPA] Billing and process management system

[Tom DeReggi]

Tim,

Now that you have made your shameless self promotion sales pitch :-)  I 
thought I'd scrutinize your comments, palying devils advocate :-)

I have not looked at your BOSS software or Firmwre, so I am asking blind at 
this point. But I am interested in your perspective, since you are 
interested in WISP markets.

> AP and CPE devices will need to use our firmware but
> once installed can be managed from anywhere. We currently have our 
> firmware
> ported to half a dozen devices and we're working on adding more ports all
> the time.

The above was the key comment that got my attention, and how that would 
reflect the reality of what could be a viable target market..

Is it really realistic to "use a BOSS provider's Firmware on APs and CPEs"? 
Come on WISPs have graduated basic Wifi APs and CPEs. It has taken 
almost a decade for the Firmware leaders of today to develop feature rich 
products that WISPs can actually count on working well enough for commercial 
deployment. (examples... Mikrotik, StarOS, Ligowave, etc).
Why would a WISP risk a tried and true solution to convert to something new, 
just for integration into a BOSS system? Could they risk that?  Thats like 
going to a CLEC provider and saying... "We have this new BOSS system, would 
you mind just throwing away all your CISCOs.".  Generally what WISPs would 
want more is a BOSS system that could integrate will all their pre-eixsting 
diverse product lines. As a WISP, we all know there are a lot of tools in 
the toolbox, and there is the right tool for each type of job. Even the 
WISPs most religious to staying true to one brand have branched out to use 
many different product lines, because technical reasons and differences in 
their technology forced them to, if they wanted to stay competitive.  I 
would find it more viable to have a "agent" application that could be 
integrated into pre-existing OS, to add compatibility. (although that could 
also be a huge task technically, and politically also)

When a BOSS requires its own Firmware for devices, it usually means that the 
WISPs will now need two BOSS systems. One for their new proprietary system, 
and one for all their other stuff. That means duplication of ALL costs. 
Labor, hardware, CC processing, learning curve, documentation, etc, etc. So 
teh service subscribption could no longer be justified as a time saver, as 
it would be yet another application "added" to the list to manage.  Also 
note a platform change is not jsut a technology change, it is also a process 
change.

Do not misunderstand me, I am NOT Bashing your product. I'm just sharing the 
first thoughts that came to my mind, when I don't yet understand your 
product, and it would potentually be a thought likely to cross other WISP's 
minds.

How do you feel your product, will or could fit into an existing WISP's 
operation?  And what processes/features could be extended to pre-existing 
models?
To be more politically correct, this is a question not necessarilly directed 
specifically to your product, but any product that offers a more narrow 
specialized management solution (such as HotSpot) to integrate into an exist 
provider's network of any type.

A trend I see is many vendors are providing RMS systems for their radio 
firmware platforms. (I'll spare you the list, but atleast 10 I could name 
off teh top of my head). However, most are jsut compatible with their own 
product, which takes away a large part of the value proposition for many 
WISPs.  I personally, see 2009 and 2010 being about increasing BOSS's 
compatibilty to encompass a much larger models and products.  The analogy I 
like to use is looking at a company like at  Comcast or a Verizon. Would 
they give their support staff 5 different OSS platforms to manage all the 
peices of their network? WISPS are growing, and there is a dream for one 
platform that does it all, and it will be even more importnat as teh roll 
ups occur. Or will it be a technical impossibilty?

Tom DeReggi
RapidDSL & Wireless, Inc
IntAirNet- Fixed Wireless Broadband


- Original Message - 
From: "Tim Barker" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Billing and process management system


> While you guys are on the topic could I also ask you to look at our
> offering?
>
> We've been selling hot spot systems for the hospitality industry since 
> 2004
> but over the past year have started putting together a package for WISPs.
> We've branded the WISP solution Avansu (http://www.avansu.com).
>
> Avansu is a B/OSS provided entirely as a service (via the browser), no
> software to install. AP and CPE devices will need to use our firmware but
> once installed can be managed from anywhere. We currently have our 
> firmware
> ported to half a dozen devices and we're working on adding more ports all
> the time.
>
> Avansu offers the following:
> - Billing (subscriptions, credit card payments, scratch cards etc)
> - 

Re: [WISPA] Xbox 360 issues

[3-dB Networks]

So does that constitute a heat problem :-)

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Josh Luthman
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:20 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Xbox 360 issues
> 
> Microsoft gets slammed a lot but my communication with them in regards
> to my xbox and service has been pretty good.  I paid for a year of
> live service in January and lost my xbox in a car fire
> (iam8up.com/fiya) in February.  They refunded the full amount.
> 
> On 12/4/08, RickG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I understand the warranty was only 90 days but they have extended it
> > to 1 year now. Of course, my luck it would fail after 366 days! -RickG
> >
> > On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:20 AM, Josh Luthman
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> The warranty typically replaces the rrod boxes from what I hear.
> >>
> >> On 12/4/08, jeremyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  Maybe it's the placement of the device or just plain bad luck.  I
> know
>  problems have existed and I know people still have issues, but I know
>  quite
>  a large pool of avid gamers (unfortunately, that's ALL some of them
> do)
>  and
>  none have had to replace an XBox 360 (though a couple did replace the
>  original)...  and a few bought them on the day of release.
> >>>
> >>> Most of the problems are heat related.  The xbox's graphic chipset can
> >>> get
> >>> so hot that it starts to heat the solder back up and when it cools it
> >>> cracks.  It is called the (RRoD) red ring of death as indicted by the
> red
> >>> ring around the power button.  Just in case anyone has an xbox 360 or
> has
> >>> a
> >>> son/daughter that does, you can simply add 2 normal case fans to the
> box
> >>> of
> >>> the 360 and it will pretty much take care of the problem.  There are
> >>> videos
> >>> on utube that can show you how to do it.  It is a lot cheaper than
> >>> replacing
> >>> a $300 device.
> >>>
> >>> Sincerely,
> >>>
> >>> Jeremy Davis, CEO
> >>> Maximum Technologies, LLC
> >>> Office 318.303.4725
> >>> www.maximumtech.us
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
> --
> >>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >>> http://signup.wispa.org/
> >>> --
> --
> >>>
> >>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >>>
> >>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >>>
> >>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> --
> >> Josh Luthman
> >> Office: 937-552-2340
> >> Direct: 937-552-2343
> >> 1100 Wayne St
> >> Suite 1337
> >> Troy, OH 45373
> >>
> >> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> >> --- Henry Spencer
> >>
> >>
> >> ---
> -
> >> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> >> http://signup.wispa.org/
> >> ---
> -
> >>
> >> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >>
> >> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> >> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >>
> >> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >>
> >
> >
> > 
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> > 
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
> 
> 
> --
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
> 
> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> --- Henry Spencer
> 
> 
> --
> --
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --
> --
> 
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> 
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> 
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/




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Re: [WISPA] Xbox 360 issues

[Josh Luthman]

Microsoft gets slammed a lot but my communication with them in regards
to my xbox and service has been pretty good.  I paid for a year of
live service in January and lost my xbox in a car fire
(iam8up.com/fiya) in February.  They refunded the full amount.

On 12/4/08, RickG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I understand the warranty was only 90 days but they have extended it
> to 1 year now. Of course, my luck it would fail after 366 days! -RickG
>
> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:20 AM, Josh Luthman
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> The warranty typically replaces the rrod boxes from what I hear.
>>
>> On 12/4/08, jeremyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 Maybe it's the placement of the device or just plain bad luck.  I know
 problems have existed and I know people still have issues, but I know
 quite
 a large pool of avid gamers (unfortunately, that's ALL some of them do)
 and
 none have had to replace an XBox 360 (though a couple did replace the
 original)...  and a few bought them on the day of release.
>>>
>>> Most of the problems are heat related.  The xbox's graphic chipset can
>>> get
>>> so hot that it starts to heat the solder back up and when it cools it
>>> cracks.  It is called the (RRoD) red ring of death as indicted by the red
>>> ring around the power button.  Just in case anyone has an xbox 360 or has
>>> a
>>> son/daughter that does, you can simply add 2 normal case fans to the box
>>> of
>>> the 360 and it will pretty much take care of the problem.  There are
>>> videos
>>> on utube that can show you how to do it.  It is a lot cheaper than
>>> replacing
>>> a $300 device.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Jeremy Davis, CEO
>>> Maximum Technologies, LLC
>>> Office 318.303.4725
>>> www.maximumtech.us
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>> --- Henry Spencer
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>


-- 
Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer



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Re: [WISPA] Xbox 360 issues

[Mike Hammett]

I'm not sure if it was only for a specific series, but Microsoft was 
extending warranties to like 3 years in preparation for the Halo 3 launch.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "RickG" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 10:12 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Xbox 360 issues

> I understand the warranty was only 90 days but they have extended it
> to 1 year now. Of course, my luck it would fail after 366 days! -RickG
>
> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:20 AM, Josh Luthman
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> The warranty typically replaces the rrod boxes from what I hear.
>>
>> On 12/4/08, jeremyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
 Maybe it's the placement of the device or just plain bad luck.  I know
 problems have existed and I know people still have issues, but I know
 quite
 a large pool of avid gamers (unfortunately, that's ALL some of them do)
 and
 none have had to replace an XBox 360 (though a couple did replace the
 original)...  and a few bought them on the day of release.
>>>
>>> Most of the problems are heat related.  The xbox's graphic chipset can 
>>> get
>>> so hot that it starts to heat the solder back up and when it cools it
>>> cracks.  It is called the (RRoD) red ring of death as indicted by the 
>>> red
>>> ring around the power button.  Just in case anyone has an xbox 360 or 
>>> has a
>>> son/daughter that does, you can simply add 2 normal case fans to the box 
>>> of
>>> the 360 and it will pretty much take care of the problem.  There are 
>>> videos
>>> on utube that can show you how to do it.  It is a lot cheaper than 
>>> replacing
>>> a $300 device.
>>>
>>> Sincerely,
>>>
>>> Jeremy Davis, CEO
>>> Maximum Technologies, LLC
>>> Office 318.303.4725
>>> www.maximumtech.us
>>>
>>>
>>> 
>>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>> 
>>>
>>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>>
>>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>>
>>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>> --- Henry Spencer
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 



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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[Travis Johnson]

The CPE is our property and it is just part of the monthly service. We
don't charge extra for it (because without it, they can't have
service). 

Travis
Microserv

RickG wrote:

  Travis,

Do you lease or rent the CPE to you customers?

-RickG

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Travis Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  
  
Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee
covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" on every new
customer.

Travis
Microserv

Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000 subscribers
things will be a bit better.

- Original Message -
From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "WISPA General List" 
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds




I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
that is so often discussed on this list.



I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
320 clients.



The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have started you
service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
boat.



So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
Verizon.



Steve Barnes

RC-WiFi.com




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Re: [WISPA] Xbox 360 issues

[RickG]

I understand the warranty was only 90 days but they have extended it
to 1 year now. Of course, my luck it would fail after 366 days! -RickG

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:20 AM, Josh Luthman
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> The warranty typically replaces the rrod boxes from what I hear.
>
> On 12/4/08, jeremyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> Maybe it's the placement of the device or just plain bad luck.  I know
>>> problems have existed and I know people still have issues, but I know
>>> quite
>>> a large pool of avid gamers (unfortunately, that's ALL some of them do)
>>> and
>>> none have had to replace an XBox 360 (though a couple did replace the
>>> original)...  and a few bought them on the day of release.
>>
>> Most of the problems are heat related.  The xbox's graphic chipset can get
>> so hot that it starts to heat the solder back up and when it cools it
>> cracks.  It is called the (RRoD) red ring of death as indicted by the red
>> ring around the power button.  Just in case anyone has an xbox 360 or has a
>> son/daughter that does, you can simply add 2 normal case fans to the box of
>> the 360 and it will pretty much take care of the problem.  There are videos
>> on utube that can show you how to do it.  It is a lot cheaper than replacing
>> a $300 device.
>>
>> Sincerely,
>>
>> Jeremy Davis, CEO
>> Maximum Technologies, LLC
>> Office 318.303.4725
>> www.maximumtech.us
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
> --
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> --- Henry Spencer
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



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Re: [WISPA] Xbox 360 issues

[RickG]

My Radio shack has these fans on clearance ($12) now for some reason.
I bought one for my wife's Christmas present (XBox). Shhh, dont tell
her :)
-RickG

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 9:48 AM, jeremyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Maybe it's the placement of the device or just plain bad luck.  I know
>> problems have existed and I know people still have issues, but I know
>> quite
>> a large pool of avid gamers (unfortunately, that's ALL some of them do)
>> and
>> none have had to replace an XBox 360 (though a couple did replace the
>> original)...  and a few bought them on the day of release.
>
> Most of the problems are heat related.  The xbox's graphic chipset can get so 
> hot that it starts to heat the solder back up and when it cools it cracks.  
> It is called the (RRoD) red ring of death as indicted by the red ring around 
> the power button.  Just in case anyone has an xbox 360 or has a son/daughter 
> that does, you can simply add 2 normal case fans to the box of the 360 and it 
> will pretty much take care of the problem.  There are videos on utube that 
> can show you how to do it.  It is a lot cheaper than replacing a $300 device.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jeremy Davis, CEO
> Maximum Technologies, LLC
> Office 318.303.4725
> www.maximumtech.us
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



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Re: [WISPA] Article

[RickG]

Every SHOULD know that most connections are "shared bandwidth". The
keyword is SHOULD. But, peole only hear what they want to and everyone
I talk to that isnt a techie thinks they get the speed they bought for
$50 or less all the time! The marketing gurus have screwed up again
just like the "unlimited use" policy fiasco. So, I always try to
educate my users but they percieve this as my issue and that my
service is inferiro with cable or dsl. Of course, thats what feeds the
marketing hype with the speed in the first place. So, what to do?
-RickG

On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:41 AM, Jack Unger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dear Mike,
>
> You miss the point and possibly so does Josh. Because an AP can deliver
> "x" amount of throughput during a speed test between two location does
> not mean that the same AP can deliver that amount of throughput to all
> the customers simultaneously. The AP's throughput is shared between all
> of the end-users. When the AP maxes out, some (possibly all) of those
> end-users must slow down. Some WISPs do not understand this and thus
> they end up over-promising throughput and disappointing their customers.
> WISPs need to understand this or they will fail in this business and
> give other WISPs a black eye in the process. Nobody is getting beat up
> here; this has nothing to do with personalities. It has everything to do
> with the physics of data communications behavior. Everybody needs to
> understand the true limits of their system.
>
> Why is this? Because the "air" is a shared medium. Throughput delivery
> takes real-world time in intervals we call "time-slots". You can only
> carry so much throughput during one time-slot. There area only so many
> time-slots (fractions of a second) in each second. This is why
> throughput is limited. Only so many users can be on one AP at the same
> time if they are requesting a large amount of the available AP
> throughput. A lightly-loaded system may appear to be able to deliver max
> throughput simultaneously to those few customers but when the AP is
> heavily loaded with users who are vying for a lot of throughput
> simultaneously then most of them will need to slow down because not
> everyone will get all the time slots they need to carry the high
> throughput (ex: video streaming) levels that they are requesting.
>
> Don't make this personal; that simply detracts from the very real
> technical limits that a successful WISP must understand in order to
> succeed and survive.
>
> jack
>
>
> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> I didn't get that at all.
>>
>> It seems as though when anyone on this list suggests going faster than 2 
>> megabits, they get beat up.  Sorry, Charlie, BA-II was outdated long ago.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Jack Unger
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 6:55 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>>
>>
>> So how many of your customers can you serve 26 Mb to SIMULTANEOUSLY from the 
>> same AP? It sounds like you are saying that you can serve all of them 26 Mb 
>> simultaneously.
>>
>> Josh Luthman wrote:
>> Each customer has an MT - capable of 26mbps to their home.  Each tower has a
>> Redline to it, throughput as high as the key purchased (54 megs).
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> Those who don't understand Wireless are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>> --- Henry Spencer
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Jack Unger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>   Josh Luthman wrote:
>>
>> My 5.8 customers can do 10+ megs...
>>
>> The estimated throughput on the MTs is 30 to 31 megs.  Real bandwidth tests
>> show 26 megs.
>>
>>
>>  So do you deploy one MT for each customer or do you share that 26 Mb
>> between all of your customers on that one access point?
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> Those who don't understand Wireless are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>> --- Henry Spencer
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:40 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>  And which telco is this going to bail out?Money from Congress to
>> industry = pay off Unions for votes.
>>
>> We will never, ever, ever, ever qualify.
>>
>> Another headliner article I read on this will redefine "broadband" as over
>> 10 Meg.
>>
>> Nothing like disqualifying almost the entire WISP industry...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> 
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Rick Harnish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "'WISPA General List'"  
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:20 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Jeff,
>>
>> Just to let you know, I am in Washington DC this week participating in
>>
>>
>>  the
>>
>>
>>  events below.  WISPA has signed on as a supporter of the Call to Action
>>
>>

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[RickG]

Travis,

Do you lease or rent the CPE to you customers?

-RickG

On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 11:44 PM, Travis Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install fee
> covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" on every new
> customer.
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
>
> You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000 subscribers
> things will be a bit better.
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
> Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>
>
>
>
> I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
> WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
> that is so often discussed on this list.
>
>
>
> I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
> penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
> clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
> what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
> 320 clients.
>
>
>
> The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
> Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
> speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
> of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
> Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
> another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
> 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
>
>
>
> Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
> you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
>
>
>
> Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have started you
> service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
> know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
> boat.
>
>
>
> So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
> without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
> charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
> readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
> Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
> Verizon.
>
>
>
> Steve Barnes
>
> RC-WiFi.com
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
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Re: [WISPA] Xbox 360 issues

[Josh Luthman]

The warranty typically replaces the rrod boxes from what I hear.

On 12/4/08, jeremyd <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Maybe it's the placement of the device or just plain bad luck.  I know
>> problems have existed and I know people still have issues, but I know
>> quite
>> a large pool of avid gamers (unfortunately, that's ALL some of them do)
>> and
>> none have had to replace an XBox 360 (though a couple did replace the
>> original)...  and a few bought them on the day of release.
>
> Most of the problems are heat related.  The xbox's graphic chipset can get
> so hot that it starts to heat the solder back up and when it cools it
> cracks.  It is called the (RRoD) red ring of death as indicted by the red
> ring around the power button.  Just in case anyone has an xbox 360 or has a
> son/daughter that does, you can simply add 2 normal case fans to the box of
> the 360 and it will pretty much take care of the problem.  There are videos
> on utube that can show you how to do it.  It is a lot cheaper than replacing
> a $300 device.
>
> Sincerely,
>
> Jeremy Davis, CEO
> Maximum Technologies, LLC
> Office 318.303.4725
> www.maximumtech.us
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>


-- 
Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer



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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[Butch Evans]

On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, 3-dB Networks wrote:

>I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our 
>company we are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom 
>attributes part of our success by leasing equipment early on as a 
>WISP.  He wrote an article here about leasing that might change 
>your mind.  http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx

The article on this page is VERY informative.  I highly encourage 
anyone who is a WISP to read it.

-- 

* Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/   * Wired or Wireless Networks   *




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Re: [WISPA] Article

[Butch Evans]

On Thu, 4 Dec 2008, Jeff Broadwick wrote:

>I'll disagree with you to a point Butch.  WISPA represents all 
>WISPs generally and it's members specifically.  I don't agree with 
>a lot that Mark writes, but he's consistent and he challenges the 
>thought process.  His opinions should not be weighted more than a 
>member WISP, but listening to him may help sharpen our message and 
>to appeal to those who don't generally join organizations like 
>WISPA.

I'm not suggesting his opinions are more or less important than a 
member's opinion.  I also recognize who it is that WISPA represents. 
My contention, however, is that his opinions, as a non-member, don't 
come to bear on policy.  Anyone who joins gets the right to help 
shape policy.  All others get the BENEFIT of WISPA's work, because 
what we have done and are now doing impacts the industry at large, 
but only those willing to put up a TINY amount of cash ($250/year) 
get to help us decide on policy.

-- 

* Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/   * Wired or Wireless Networks   *




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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[Charles Wu (CTI)]

In small business (especially growing startups that are still looking to reach 
that critical mass of break-even / profitability, which, I generally see in the 
WISP space at about 1000 customers or $50k / month in total revenue) cash is 
king

If you look at statistics, over 80% of all small business failures occur in 
"highly profitable / fast growth situations" that simply "run out of cash"

It doesn't matter how many subscribers you have signed up for installation -- 
if you can't make payroll (which is generally the #1 expense of any business) / 
pay your bandwidth / tower / whatever bills, you're done

-Charles

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Barnes
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 4:53 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
Can you help me with that one.



Steve



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds



Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install
fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" on
every new customer.

Travis
Microserv

Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:

You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000
subscribers
things will be a bit better.

- Original Message -
From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
To: "WISPA General List" 

Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds




I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth
different
WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
equipment
that is so often discussed on this list.



I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch
each
penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to
service the
clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other
that
what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8
towers with
320 clients.



The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a
$59.99 Pro
Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn
off the
speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M
on any
of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS
Full
Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost
of with
another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to
achieve
10MB to each client is financially Impossible.



Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.
What do
you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.



Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have
started you
service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have
and I
know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in
the same
boat.



So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND
definition
without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is
everyone
charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing
is not
readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.
No
Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
Verizon.



Steve Barnes

RC-WiFi.com






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Re: [WISPA] Article

[Jeff Broadwick]

I'll disagree with you to a point Butch.  WISPA represents all WISPs
generally and it's members specifically.  I don't agree with a lot that Mark
writes, but he's consistent and he challenges the thought process.  His
opinions should not be weighted more than a member WISP, but listening to
him may help sharpen our message and to appeal to those who don't generally
join organizations like WISPA. 

Regards,

Jeff

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Butch Evans
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 9:45 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article

On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, Tom DeReggi wrote:

>I am open to feedback from you, on what your opinions are, so we can 
>decide on a WISPA policy for those questions.

Tom, don't get caught up in arguments with him.  He is not a WISPA member
(unless that's changed) and as such, his opinion is NOT valid in shaping
WISPA policy.  That is a member's right, not his.

--

* Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/   * Wired or Wireless Networks   *





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Re: [WISPA] Xbox 360 issues

[jeremyd]

> Maybe it's the placement of the device or just plain bad luck.  I know
> problems have existed and I know people still have issues, but I know
> quite
> a large pool of avid gamers (unfortunately, that's ALL some of them do)
> and
> none have had to replace an XBox 360 (though a couple did replace the
> original)...  and a few bought them on the day of release.

Most of the problems are heat related.  The xbox's graphic chipset can get so 
hot that it starts to heat the solder back up and when it cools it cracks.  It 
is called the (RRoD) red ring of death as indicted by the red ring around the 
power button.  Just in case anyone has an xbox 360 or has a son/daughter that 
does, you can simply add 2 normal case fans to the box of the 360 and it will 
pretty much take care of the problem.  There are videos on utube that can show 
you how to do it.  It is a lot cheaper than replacing a $300 device.

Sincerely,

Jeremy Davis, CEO
Maximum Technologies, LLC
Office 318.303.4725
www.maximumtech.us



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Re: [WISPA] Article

[Butch Evans]

On Wed, 3 Dec 2008, Tom DeReggi wrote:

>I am open to feedback from you, on what your opinions are, so we 
>can decide on a WISPA policy for those questions.

Tom, don't get caught up in arguments with him.  He is not a WISPA 
member (unless that's changed) and as such, his opinion is NOT valid 
in shaping WISPA policy.  That is a member's right, not his.

-- 

* Butch Evans   * Professional Network Consultation*
* http://www.butchevans.com/* Network Engineering  *
* http://www.wispa.org/ * WISPA Board Member   *
* http://blog.butchevans.com/   * Wired or Wireless Networks   *




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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[Jeff Broadwick]

Congratulations on the new digs Eje!  Sorry we couldn't make the grand
opening.

I knew you back when it really just was Mom and Pop.  It's exciting to see
how far you've come in such a short time.

Jeff


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 8:53 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

XR5's are not prism chipset they are atheros chipsets as well. 6th gen
Atheros to be more exact. All Ubiquiti products are Atheros base as well so
are all MikroTiks radio cards as well. 

/Eje
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-Original Message-
From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 01:10:43
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


XR5's are Prism for my APs
R52's are Atheros for my CPEs

I have not heard of any chipset differences in performance - anyone else
have this?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:08 AM, Mike Hammett
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling
> 20+
> megs...  now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it.
> I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5
> mbit.  A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that
> much
> different from A and A works just fine for me.
>
> Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>
> > I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
> > WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
> > that is so often discussed on this list.
> >
> >
> >
> > I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
> > penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
> > clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
> > what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
> > 320 clients.
> >
> >
> >
> > The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
> > Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
> > speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
> > of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
> > Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
> > another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
> > 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
> >
> >
> >
> > Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
> > you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
> >
> >
> >
> > Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have started you
> > service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
> > know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
> > boat.
> >
> >
> >
> > So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
> > without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
> > charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
> > readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
> > Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
> > Verizon.
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve Barnes
> >
> > RC-WiFi.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
>


> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
>


> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
>
>
>
>


> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
>


>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
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>
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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[Travis Johnson]

Hi,

Yes, you still have to pay for it... but instead of being upside down 
with the customer for the first 3-6 months (depending on equipment), you 
begin making money on that customer from day 1. So you no longer worry 
about "do I have enough money to buy the equipment to install that 
customer" and instead can focus on "get as many customers installed as 
quickly as possible".

Also, by buying 250 units at a time, you get a much better price on the 
equipment... which sometimes can even out the extra you pay by financing.

Travis
Microserv

Steve Barnes wrote:
> I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
> the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
> still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
> takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
> Can you help me with that one.
>
>  
>
> Steve
>
>  
>
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>
>  
>
> Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install
> fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" on
> every new customer.
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: 
>
> You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000
> subscribers 
> things will be a bit better.
>  
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
> To: "WISPA General List" 
>  
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
> Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>  
>  
>   
>
>   I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth
> different
>   WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
> equipment
>   that is so often discussed on this list.
>
>
>
>   I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch
> each
>   penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to
> service the
>   clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other
> that
>   what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8
> towers with
>   320 clients.
>
>
>
>   The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a
> $59.99 Pro
>   Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn
> off the
>   speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M
> on any
>   of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS
> Full
>   Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost
> of with
>   another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to
> achieve
>   10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
>
>
>
>   Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.
> What do
>   you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
>
>
>
>   Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have
> started you
>   service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have
> and I
>   know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in
> the same
>   boat.
>
>
>
>   So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND
> definition
>   without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is
> everyone
>   charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing
> is not
>   readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.
> No
>   Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
>   Verizon.
>
>
>
>   Steve Barnes
>
>   RC-WiFi.com
>
>
>
>   
> 
> 
>   WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>   http://signup.wispa.org/
>   
> 
> 
>
>   WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
>   Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>   http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
>   Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>
>   
>
>  
>  
>  
> 
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
> 
>  
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>  
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>  
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>  
>  
>   
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> --

Re: [WISPA] xbox 360 issues

[Mike Hammett]

Maybe it's the placement of the device or just plain bad luck.  I know 
problems have existed and I know people still have issues, but I know quite 
a large pool of avid gamers (unfortunately, that's ALL some of them do) and 
none have had to replace an XBox 360 (though a couple did replace the 
original)...  and a few bought them on the day of release.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 7:58 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] xbox 360 issues

> On the 3rd unit myself in about as many years. Don't know many Xbox users 
> that not lost one due to the so called ring of death. The ones that 
> haven't bought the fan kit right of the bat. The only good thing for 
> myself is that each unit been a slight upgrade from the last one at the 
> same or close to the same price and since I bought the extended warranty 
> really haven't lost much money.
>
> /Eje
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile
>
> -Original Message-
> From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 01:02:47
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] xbox 360 issues
>
>
> I spoke with a doctor last week who's son has gone through 4 in the last
> year.  May be just that one case, though.
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> --- Henry Spencer
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:57 AM, Mike Hammett 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
>> I don't think that has been as prevalent of an issue over the past 2 
>> years
>> or so.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:15 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] xbox 360 issues
>>
>> > Just a little side note here - when it comes to static IP addresses on
>> the
>> > Xbox (or a reserved DHCP lease if you're into simplicity and ease =) a
>> lot
>> > of people return their Xboxes due to hardware failure and get new units
>> > which drops the MAC address and IP configuration you had before.
>> >
>> > Josh Luthman
>> > Office: 937-552-2340
>> > Direct: 937-552-2343
>> > 1100 Wayne St
>> > Suite 1337
>> > Troy, OH 45373
>> >
>> > Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>> > --- Henry Spencer
>> >
>> >
>> > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 5:54 PM, Chad Halsted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >> UDP 88
>> >> UDP and TCP 3074
>> >>
>> >> those ports should be forwarded from the customer router to the xbox
>> >> 360.  360 will need a static IP.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> we put this in our firewall for xbox customers and set their xbox to
>> >> 192.168.200.50/24
>> >>
>> >> net = wpci1
>> >> client = ether1
>> >>
>> >> forward udp to 192.168.200.50 88 from any to any 88 in via $net
>> >> forward udp to 192.168.200.50 3074 from any to any 3074 in via $net
>> >> forward tcp to 192.168.200.50 3074 from any to any 3074 in via $net
>> >>
>> >> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Mike Hammett 
>> >> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> >
>> >> wrote:
>> >> > You would have to Google for the exact port(s) to be forwarded on 
>> >> > the
>> >> > client's NATing routers.
>> >> >
>> >> > I'm told wireless is a security hole and yet here we are...  ;-)
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > -
>> >> > Mike Hammett
>> >> > Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> >> > http://www.ics-il.com
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:24 AM
>> >> > To: "WISPA General List" 
>> >> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] xbox 360 issues
>> >> >
>> >> >> upnp is a huge security whole I'm told.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> What port forwarding would be needed for a game system anyway?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Is there something I should be trying on the routers?
>> >> >>
>> >> >> marlon
>> >> >>
>> >> >> - Original Message -
>> >> >> From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> >> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 4:46 PM
>> >> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] xbox 360 issues
>> >> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> If uPNP is on, it should work as it's supposed to and the XBox
>> >> >>> requests
>> >> >>> the
>> >> >>> port forwarding from the router without manual intervention.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> -
>> >> >>> Mike Hammett
>> >> >>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> >> >>> http://www.ics-il.com
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> --
>> >> >>> From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 6:23 PM
>> >> >>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> >> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] xbox 360 issue

Re: [WISPA] Article

[Mike Hammett]

I do understand how it works.  I also understand (not sure if this is what 
you're getting at) that an AP capable of 20 megabits to a single person may 
not be capable of an aggregate of 20 megabits to 30 people.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Jack Unger" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:41 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article

> Dear Mike,
>
> You miss the point and possibly so does Josh. Because an AP can deliver
> "x" amount of throughput during a speed test between two location does
> not mean that the same AP can deliver that amount of throughput to all
> the customers simultaneously. The AP's throughput is shared between all
> of the end-users. When the AP maxes out, some (possibly all) of those
> end-users must slow down. Some WISPs do not understand this and thus
> they end up over-promising throughput and disappointing their customers.
> WISPs need to understand this or they will fail in this business and
> give other WISPs a black eye in the process. Nobody is getting beat up
> here; this has nothing to do with personalities. It has everything to do
> with the physics of data communications behavior. Everybody needs to
> understand the true limits of their system.
>
> Why is this? Because the "air" is a shared medium. Throughput delivery
> takes real-world time in intervals we call "time-slots". You can only
> carry so much throughput during one time-slot. There area only so many
> time-slots (fractions of a second) in each second. This is why
> throughput is limited. Only so many users can be on one AP at the same
> time if they are requesting a large amount of the available AP
> throughput. A lightly-loaded system may appear to be able to deliver max
> throughput simultaneously to those few customers but when the AP is
> heavily loaded with users who are vying for a lot of throughput
> simultaneously then most of them will need to slow down because not
> everyone will get all the time slots they need to carry the high
> throughput (ex: video streaming) levels that they are requesting.
>
> Don't make this personal; that simply detracts from the very real
> technical limits that a successful WISP must understand in order to
> succeed and survive.
>
> jack
>
>
> Mike Hammett wrote:
>> I didn't get that at all.
>>
>> It seems as though when anyone on this list suggests going faster than 2 
>> megabits, they get beat up.  Sorry, Charlie, BA-II was outdated long ago.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> From: Jack Unger
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 6:55 PM
>> To: WISPA General List
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>>
>>
>> So how many of your customers can you serve 26 Mb to SIMULTANEOUSLY from 
>> the same AP? It sounds like you are saying that you can serve all of them 
>> 26 Mb simultaneously.
>>
>> Josh Luthman wrote:
>> Each customer has an MT - capable of 26mbps to their home.  Each tower 
>> has a
>> Redline to it, throughput as high as the key purchased (54 megs).
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> Those who don't understand Wireless are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>> --- Henry Spencer
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 4:53 PM, Jack Unger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>   Josh Luthman wrote:
>>
>> My 5.8 customers can do 10+ megs...
>>
>> The estimated throughput on the MTs is 30 to 31 megs.  Real bandwidth 
>> tests
>> show 26 megs.
>>
>>
>>  So do you deploy one MT for each customer or do you share that 26 Mb
>> between all of your customers on that one access point?
>>
>> Josh Luthman
>> Office: 937-552-2340
>> Direct: 937-552-2343
>> 1100 Wayne St
>> Suite 1337
>> Troy, OH 45373
>>
>> Those who don't understand Wireless are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
>> --- Henry Spencer
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 3:40 PM, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>  And which telco is this going to bail out?Money from Congress to
>> industry = pay off Unions for votes.
>>
>> We will never, ever, ever, ever qualify.
>>
>> Another headliner article I read on this will redefine "broadband" as 
>> over
>> 10 Meg.
>>
>> Nothing like disqualifying almost the entire WISP industry...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> 
>>
>> - Original Message -
>> From: "Rick Harnish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> To: "'WISPA General List'"  
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:20 AM
>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Article
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  Jeff,
>>
>> Just to let you know, I am in Washington DC this week participating in
>>
>>
>>  the
>>
>>
>>  events below.  WISPA has signed on as a supporter of the Call to Action
>>
>>
>>  to
>>
>>
>>  define the Nationwide Broadband Strategy.  It was great to see all the
>> players of the Broadband Industry 

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[Mike Hammett]

All Ubiquiti cards up to this point, anyway, are Atheros.

The difference is that with Atheros cards you can use Mikrotik's N-Streme, 
which can almost double capacity.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 12:10 AM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

> XR5's are Prism for my APs
> R52's are Atheros for my CPEs
>
> I have not heard of any chipset differences in performance - anyone else
> have this?
>
> Josh Luthman
> Office: 937-552-2340
> Direct: 937-552-2343
> 1100 Wayne St
> Suite 1337
> Troy, OH 45373
>
> Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> --- Henry Spencer
>
>
> On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:08 AM, Mike Hammett 
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:
>
>> I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling
>> 20+
>> megs...  now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it.
>> I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5
>> mbit.  A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that
>> much
>> different from A and A works just fine for me.
>>
>> Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else.
>>
>>
>> -
>> Mike Hammett
>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
>> http://www.ics-il.com
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM
>> To: "WISPA General List" 
>> Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>>
>> > I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
>> > WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended 
>> > equipment
>> > that is so often discussed on this list.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
>> > penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
>> > clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
>> > what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
>> > 320 clients.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 
>> > Pro
>> > Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
>> > speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
>> > of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
>> > Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
>> > another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
>> > 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
>> > you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have started you
>> > service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
>> > know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
>> > boat.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
>> > without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
>> > charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
>> > readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
>> > Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
>> > Verizon.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Steve Barnes
>> >
>> > RC-WiFi.com
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> 
>> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> > http://signup.wispa.org/
>> >
>> 
>> >
>> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>> >
>> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>> >
>> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
>> http://signup.wispa.org/
>>
>> 
>>
>> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>>
>> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
>> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>>
>> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 



WISPA Wants You! Join today!
http://signup.wispa.org/
---

Re: [WISPA] xbox 360 issues

[eje]

On the 3rd unit myself in about as many years. Don't know many Xbox users that 
not lost one due to the so called ring of death. The ones that haven't bought 
the fan kit right of the bat. The only good thing for myself is that each unit 
been a slight upgrade from the last one at the same or close to the same price 
and since I bought the extended warranty really haven't lost much money.  

/Eje
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-Original Message-
From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 01:02:47 
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] xbox 360 issues


I spoke with a doctor last week who's son has gone through 4 in the last
year.  May be just that one case, though.

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 12:57 AM, Mike Hammett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I don't think that has been as prevalent of an issue over the past 2 years
> or so.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 5:15 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] xbox 360 issues
>
> > Just a little side note here - when it comes to static IP addresses on
> the
> > Xbox (or a reserved DHCP lease if you're into simplicity and ease =) a
> lot
> > of people return their Xboxes due to hardware failure and get new units
> > which drops the MAC address and IP configuration you had before.
> >
> > Josh Luthman
> > Office: 937-552-2340
> > Direct: 937-552-2343
> > 1100 Wayne St
> > Suite 1337
> > Troy, OH 45373
> >
> > Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
> > --- Henry Spencer
> >
> >
> > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 5:54 PM, Chad Halsted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> >> UDP 88
> >> UDP and TCP 3074
> >>
> >> those ports should be forwarded from the customer router to the xbox
> >> 360.  360 will need a static IP.
> >>
> >>
> >> we put this in our firewall for xbox customers and set their xbox to
> >> 192.168.200.50/24
> >>
> >> net = wpci1
> >> client = ether1
> >>
> >> forward udp to 192.168.200.50 88 from any to any 88 in via $net
> >> forward udp to 192.168.200.50 3074 from any to any 3074 in via $net
> >> forward tcp to 192.168.200.50 3074 from any to any 3074 in via $net
> >>
> >> On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 10:46 AM, Mike Hammett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >> wrote:
> >> > You would have to Google for the exact port(s) to be forwarded on the
> >> > client's NATing routers.
> >> >
> >> > I'm told wireless is a security hole and yet here we are...  ;-)
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -
> >> > Mike Hammett
> >> > Intelligent Computing Solutions
> >> > http://www.ics-il.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> > Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:24 AM
> >> > To: "WISPA General List" 
> >> > Subject: Re: [WISPA] xbox 360 issues
> >> >
> >> >> upnp is a huge security whole I'm told.
> >> >>
> >> >> What port forwarding would be needed for a game system anyway?
> >> >>
> >> >> Is there something I should be trying on the routers?
> >> >>
> >> >> marlon
> >> >>
> >> >> - Original Message -
> >> >> From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> >> To: "WISPA General List" 
> >> >> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 4:46 PM
> >> >> Subject: Re: [WISPA] xbox 360 issues
> >> >>
> >> >>
> >> >>> If uPNP is on, it should work as it's supposed to and the XBox
> >> >>> requests
> >> >>> the
> >> >>> port forwarding from the router without manual intervention.
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> -
> >> >>> Mike Hammett
> >> >>> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> >> >>> http://www.ics-il.com
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>>
> >> >>> --
> >> >>> From: "Marlon K. Schafer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> >>> Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 6:23 PM
> >> >>> To: "WISPA General List" 
> >> >>> Subject: Re: [WISPA] xbox 360 issues
> >> >>>
> >>  upnp?  We ALWAYS turn that off.  What do you do with it?
> >> 
> >>  - Original Message -
> >>  From: "Mike Hammett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >>  To: "WISPA General List" 
> >>  Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2008 3:59 PM
> >>  Subject: Re: [WISPA] xbox 360 issues
> >> 
> >> 
> >> > Usually uPNP takes care of it, but they need a specific port
> >> forwarded
> >> > to
> >> > the box to work.  If they have more than one console inside...  I
> >> dunno
> >> > what
> >> > to do about that.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > -
> >> > Mike Hammett
> >> > Intelligent Computing Solutions
> >> > http://www.ics-il.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --
> >> > 

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[eje]

XR5's are not prism chipset they are atheros chipsets as well. 6th gen Atheros 
to be more exact. All Ubiquiti products are Atheros base as well so are all 
MikroTiks radio cards as well. 

/Eje
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-Original Message-
From: "Josh Luthman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 01:10:43 
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


XR5's are Prism for my APs
R52's are Atheros for my CPEs

I have not heard of any chipset differences in performance - anyone else
have this?

Josh Luthman
Office: 937-552-2340
Direct: 937-552-2343
1100 Wayne St
Suite 1337
Troy, OH 45373

Those who don't understand UNIX are condemned to reinvent it, poorly.
--- Henry Spencer


On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 1:08 AM, Mike Hammett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:

> I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling
> 20+
> megs...  now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it.
> I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5
> mbit.  A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that
> much
> different from A and A works just fine for me.
>
> Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else.
>
>
> -
> Mike Hammett
> Intelligent Computing Solutions
> http://www.ics-il.com
>
>
>
> --
> From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds
>
> > I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
> > WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended equipment
> > that is so often discussed on this list.
> >
> >
> >
> > I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
> > penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service the
> > clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
> > what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
> > 320 clients.
> >
> >
> >
> > The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99 Pro
> > Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
> > speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
> > of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
> > Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of with
> > another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
> > 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
> >
> >
> >
> > Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
> > you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
> >
> >
> >
> > Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have started you
> > service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
> > know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
> > boat.
> >
> >
> >
> > So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
> > without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
> > charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is not
> > readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
> > Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
> > Verizon.
> >
> >
> >
> > Steve Barnes
> >
> > RC-WiFi.com
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> > WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> > http://signup.wispa.org/
> >
> 
> >
> > WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
> >
> > Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> > http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
> >
> > Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> >
>
>
>
> 
> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>
> 
>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
>



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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[3-dB Networks]

Steve,

I think Mesa Networks former CEO (if your not familiar with our company we
are a spin off of Mesa Networks) Todd Bergstrom attributes part of our
success by leasing equipment early on as a WISP.  He wrote an article here
about leasing that might change your mind.  http://tinyurl.com/5uowsx

Basically look at it this way.  If you lease your equipment, it allows you
to build that next tower site, get customers installed, increase your
revenue.  You end up paying more in the long run because of the interest,
but you may also save money by being able to buy in bulk from your vendor
instead of individual or 5 packs.  Todd probably explains it better in the
article.

Other than this, I've been racking my brains on things that another WISP can
replicate to expand... and the only thing I can think of is equipment
related... I know we couldn't have built our network using an 802.11a/b/g
solution (although our networks first couple hundred customers were on
KarlNet) because you hit an oversubscription on the AP really fast.  We had
many many AP's with 50+ customers... we would not have been successful
without timing and the ability to place so many customers on an AP.  Our
WISP almost failed back in 2002 (before I joined Mesa) because we hit the
limitations of the KarlNet system.  My experiences with a Tranzeo network in
2006/2007 lead me to believe things really haven't changed that much (its
all still 802.11 and its hard to make significant improvements to it).  So
while this is probably along the lines of rip out your network and start
over... the really big WISP's all deploy Canopy I think for a reason.

My 2 cents, take them for what they are worth (which 2 cents isn't worth
much anymore)

Daniel White
3-dB Networks

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Steve Barnes
> Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 3:53 AM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
> 
> I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
> the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
> still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
> takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
> Can you help me with that one.
> 
> 
> 
> Steve
> 
> 
> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Travis Johnson
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
> To: WISPA General List
> Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds
> 
> 
> 
> Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install
> fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" on
> every new customer.
> 
> Travis
> Microserv
> 
> Chuck McCown - 3 wrote:
> 
> You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000
> subscribers
> things will be a bit better.
> 
> - Original Message -
> From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> To: "WISPA General List" 
> 
> Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
> Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds
> 
> 
> 
> 
>   I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth
> different
>   WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
> equipment
>   that is so often discussed on this list.
> 
> 
> 
>   I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch
> each
>   penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to
> service the
>   clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other
> that
>   what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8
> towers with
>   320 clients.
> 
> 
> 
>   The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a
> $59.99 Pro
>   Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn
> off the
>   speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M
> on any
>   of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS
> Full
>   Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost
> of with
>   another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to
> achieve
>   10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
> 
> 
> 
>   Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.
> What do
>   you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
> 
> 
> 
>   Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have
> started you
>   service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have
> and I
>   know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in
> the same
>   boat.
> 
> 
> 
>   So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND
> definition
>   without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is
> everyone
>   charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing
> is not
>   readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.
> No
>   Grants available and no big group

Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[eje]

G is not very good on handling lot of noisy. I have bit similar problem as you 
in one area. Customer experience gets much better with the unit set in B mode. 
Higher throughput and more stable connection. 

/Eje
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

-Original Message-
From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 05:57:41 
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds


I am on B only. We have very noisy 2.4 and I have been told adding G to
the AP and CPE just increases the noise.  Is that Wrong?  What will G do
to my Distance customers.

Steve Barnes

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 1:08 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling
20+ 
megs...  now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it.

I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5 
mbit.  A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that
much 
different from A and A works just fine for me.

Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds

> I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
> WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
equipment
> that is so often discussed on this list.
>
>
>
> I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
> penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service
the
> clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
> what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
> 320 clients.
>
>
>
> The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99
Pro
> Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
> speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
> of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
> Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of
with
> another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
> 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
>
>
>
> Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
> you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
>
>
>
> Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have started
you
> service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
> know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
> boat.
>
>
>
> So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
> without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
> charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is
not
> readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
> Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
> Verizon.
>
>
>
> Steve Barnes
>
> RC-WiFi.com
>
>
>
>


> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>


>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 




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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[Steve Barnes]

I am on B only. We have very noisy 2.4 and I have been told adding G to
the AP and CPE just increases the noise.  Is that Wrong?  What will G do
to my Distance customers.

Steve Barnes

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Hammett
Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2008 1:08 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

I've only used 5 GHz MT, but I don't have a problem with someone pulling
20+ 
megs...  now I don't have that much upstream, but the network can do it.

I'm assuming that you are using cards in B mode if you can only get 3.5 
mbit.  A lot of people are against G mode, but I don't' think it's that
much 
different from A and A works just fine for me.

Then again, I am ALL Atheros MT, nothing else.


-
Mike Hammett
Intelligent Computing Solutions
http://www.ics-il.com



--
From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 8:32 PM
To: "WISPA General List" 
Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds

> I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth different
> WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
equipment
> that is so often discussed on this list.
>
>
>
> I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch each
> penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to service
the
> clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other that
> what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8 towers with
> 320 clients.
>
>
>
> The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a $59.99
Pro
> Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn off the
> speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M on any
> of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS Full
> Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost of
with
> another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to achieve
> 10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
>
>
>
> Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.  What do
> you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
>
>
>
> Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have started
you
> service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have and I
> know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in the same
> boat.
>
>
>
> So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND definition
> without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is everyone
> charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing is
not
> readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.   No
> Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
> Verizon.
>
>
>
> Steve Barnes
>
> RC-WiFi.com
>
>
>
>


> WISPA Wants You! Join today!
> http://signup.wispa.org/
>


>
> WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org
>
> Subscribe/Unsubscribe:
> http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless
>
> Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/
> 




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Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

[Steve Barnes]

I guess maybe I am old school but leasing the CPE just makes it so that
the monthly fee has to pay the CPE cost instead of the install.  You
still have to pay for it.  It may make cash flow easier but the ROI
takes longer due to interest rates and labor dealing with lease Co.
Can you help me with that one.

 

Steve

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 11:45 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] Client Speeds

 

Honestly, the fastest way to grow is to lease your CPE. Then the install
fee covers your cost on every install, and you aren't "upside down" on
every new customer.

Travis
Microserv

Chuck McCown - 3 wrote: 

You are doing it.  Just keep bootstrapping.  Once you get 1000
subscribers 
things will be a bit better.
 
- Original Message - 
From: "Steve Barnes" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>  
To: "WISPA General List" 
 
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2008 7:32 PM
Subject: [WISPA] Client Speeds
 
 
  

I have read many post on this list about how much bandwidth
different
WISP offer.  I want to discuss that as well as the recommended
equipment
that is so often discussed on this list.
 
 
 
I am a startup.  Little to no startup capital.  I had to pinch
each
penny to get as much as possible out of it.  My goal was to
service the
clients no one wanted in a county that had no Fiber or DSL other
that
what Verizon holds hostage.  So now after 2 years I have 8
towers with
320 clients.
 
 
 
The service I offer is a $39.99 basic level 640k x 256k and a
$59.99 Pro
Level 1M x 512k.  You guys are talking about 10Mb.  If I turn
off the
speed control on AP's and let people play I don't get over 3.5M
on any
of them. ( 2.4 MT or StarOS, and Tranzeo CPE's) I use a StarOS
Full
Duplex Link to Backhaul to a Fiber connection that I Share cost
of with
another WISP my size.  The investment I would have to make to
achieve
10MB to each client is financially Impossible.
 
 
 
Surely some of you big guys out there have been in my shoes.
What do
you recommend a small WISP in my situation to do in the future.
 
 
 
Please don't start with the statement, "How you should have
started you
service".  I was providing a solution.  So this is what I have
and I
know of at least 6 other small WISP's on this list who are in
the same
boat.
 
 
 
So BIG GUYS think back.  How do I grow into new BROADBAND
definition
without rebuilding my network from the ground up.  What is
everyone
charging and what does the client get for that price.  Financing
is not
readily available and the Boss hopes to one day get some ROI.
No
Grants available and no big group wanting to invest or challenge
Verizon.
 
 
 
Steve Barnes
 
RC-WiFi.com
 
 
 



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