RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Mike Bushard, Jr]

If you are buying all new hardware (P9) it will all do 2X rate (14Mbps). We
run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's, here's why:

With the Advantage AP you it will fun full 2X 14Mbps all the time. Legacy
SM's will run Full 2x Rate for the duration of the burst setting in the SM,
alter the Burt bucket is expended it will rate limit itself to a max 7Mbps,
Still run in 2x rate but it limits the Ethernet port throughput.

It is kind of confusing at first.


Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 6:03 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

So the AP will deliver 14Mbps of bandwidth even if all the SM's are only 
running at 1x rate?

Travis
Microserv

Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:

>Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's.
>
>With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High
>Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need
>the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM.
>
>
>To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb
>Aggregate.
>
>Mike Bushard, Jr
>Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM
>To: WISPA General List
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
>
>Another quick question...
>
>If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy 
>SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be 
>limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)?
>
>Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular?
>
>Travis
>Microserv
>
>Anthony Will wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind 
>>you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has 
>>traditionally understated there spec sheets.  The GPS is what sets the 
>>timing for the AP's.  The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all 
>>SM's registered to them.  So how it works is that all AP's on channel 
>>1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced 
>>to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same 
>>time.  Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature 
>>set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and 
>>AP to a BH or AP.  The lag that is introduced by having to transmit 
>>that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is 
>>the only time that distance can come into play.  The application this 
>>is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to 
>>have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower.
>>/>SM
>>GPS -->AP#1 /
>>   \
>> \>SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#2 
>>-->SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#3 (this AP will be out of 
>>sync with AP#1)
>>
>>Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long 
>>for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to 
>>propagate the timing signal.  But if you put a GPS sync generating 
>>device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough 
>>timing with AP#2 that they all would get along.
>>
>>One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the 
>>area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost 
>>of the GPS synchronizing items.  Also again as for the distance 
>>statement.  6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced.  
>>believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good 
>>enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6" away from it.  The two AP's 
>>that are back to back share the same channel so that when they 
>>transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other 
>>as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other.  
>>The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity 
>>to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without 
>>self interference.  If long range rural deployments are the plan then 
>>GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the 
>>same equipment and configuration in the area.  So a Moto advantage 
>>cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP 
>>bandwidth available to it.  If more is needed you can place the towers 
>

Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Travis Johnson]

Ok. thanks for the information.

Travis
Microserv

Gino A. Villarini wrote:


I have 2x links at -78 and so

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:22 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Hi,

Don't you have to have like a -65 or better signal to get 2x rate?

Travis
Microserv

Gino A. Villarini wrote:

 


Not the case, 14 mbps is 2x mode, but the only reason for all your Sm's
would be a 1x would be cause they are old radios (p7,p8) or you have very
poor links ...

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:03 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

So the AP will deliver 14Mbps of bandwidth even if all the SM's are only 
running at 1x rate?


Travis
Microserv

Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:



   


Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's.

With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High
Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need
the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM.


To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb
Aggregate.

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Another quick question...

If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy 
SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be 
limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)?


Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular?

Travis
Microserv

Anthony Will wrote:



  

 

Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind 
you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has 
traditionally understated there spec sheets.  The GPS is what sets the 
timing for the AP's.  The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all 
SM's registered to them.  So how it works is that all AP's on channel 
1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced 
to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same 
time.  Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature 
set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and 
AP to a BH or AP.  The lag that is introduced by having to transmit 
that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is 
the only time that distance can come into play.  The application this 
is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to 
have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower.

 />SM
GPS -->AP#1 /
\
  \>SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#2 
-->SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#3 (this AP will be out of 
sync with AP#1)


Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long 
for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to 
propagate the timing signal.  But if you put a GPS sync generating 
device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough 
timing with AP#2 that they all would get along.


One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the 
area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost 
of the GPS synchronizing items.  Also again as for the distance 
statement.  6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced.  
believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good 
enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6" away from it.  The two AP's 
that are back to back share the same channel so that when they 
transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other 
as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other.  
The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity 
to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without 
self interference.  If long range rural deployments are the plan then 
GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the 
same equipment and configuration in the area.  So a Moto advantage 
cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP 
bandwidth available to it.  If more is needed you can place the towers 
with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a 
possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a 
given area. One last 

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Gino A. Villarini]

I have 2x links at -78 and so

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:22 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Hi,

Don't you have to have like a -65 or better signal to get 2x rate?

Travis
Microserv

Gino A. Villarini wrote:

>Not the case, 14 mbps is 2x mode, but the only reason for all your Sm's
>would be a 1x would be cause they are old radios (p7,p8) or you have very
>poor links ...
>
>Gino A. Villarini
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
>tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:03 PM
>To: WISPA General List
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
>
>So the AP will deliver 14Mbps of bandwidth even if all the SM's are only 
>running at 1x rate?
>
>Travis
>Microserv
>
>Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's.
>>
>>With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High
>>Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need
>>the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM.
>>
>>
>>To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb
>>Aggregate.
>>
>>Mike Bushard, Jr
>>Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC
>>
>>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>>Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>>Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM
>>To: WISPA General List
>>Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
>>
>>Another quick question...
>>
>>If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy 
>>SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be 
>>limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)?
>>
>>Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular?
>>
>>Travis
>>Microserv
>>
>>Anthony Will wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>>Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind 
>>>you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has 
>>>traditionally understated there spec sheets.  The GPS is what sets the 
>>>timing for the AP's.  The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all 
>>>SM's registered to them.  So how it works is that all AP's on channel 
>>>1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced 
>>>to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same 
>>>time.  Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature 
>>>set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and 
>>>AP to a BH or AP.  The lag that is introduced by having to transmit 
>>>that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is 
>>>the only time that distance can come into play.  The application this 
>>>is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to 
>>>have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower.
>>>   />SM
>>>GPS -->AP#1 /
>>>  \
>>>\>SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#2 
>>>-->SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#3 (this AP will be out of 
>>>sync with AP#1)
>>>
>>>Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long 
>>>for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to 
>>>propagate the timing signal.  But if you put a GPS sync generating 
>>>device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough 
>>>timing with AP#2 that they all would get along.
>>>
>>>One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the 
>>>area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost 
>>>of the GPS synchronizing items.  Also again as for the distance 
>>>statement.  6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced.  
>>>believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good 
>>>enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6" away from it.  The two AP's 
>>>that are back to back share the same channel so that when they 
>>>transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from 

Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Travis Johnson]

Hi,

Don't you have to have like a -65 or better signal to get 2x rate?

Travis
Microserv

Gino A. Villarini wrote:


Not the case, 14 mbps is 2x mode, but the only reason for all your Sm's
would be a 1x would be cause they are old radios (p7,p8) or you have very
poor links ...

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:03 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

So the AP will deliver 14Mbps of bandwidth even if all the SM's are only 
running at 1x rate?


Travis
Microserv

Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:

 


Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's.

With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High
Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need
the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM.


To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb
Aggregate.

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Another quick question...

If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy 
SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be 
limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)?


Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular?

Travis
Microserv

Anthony Will wrote:



   

Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind 
you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has 
traditionally understated there spec sheets.  The GPS is what sets the 
timing for the AP's.  The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all 
SM's registered to them.  So how it works is that all AP's on channel 
1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced 
to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same 
time.  Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature 
set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and 
AP to a BH or AP.  The lag that is introduced by having to transmit 
that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is 
the only time that distance can come into play.  The application this 
is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to 
have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower.

  />SM
GPS -->AP#1 /
 \
   \>SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#2 
-->SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#3 (this AP will be out of 
sync with AP#1)


Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long 
for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to 
propagate the timing signal.  But if you put a GPS sync generating 
device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough 
timing with AP#2 that they all would get along.


One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the 
area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost 
of the GPS synchronizing items.  Also again as for the distance 
statement.  6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced.  
believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good 
enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6" away from it.  The two AP's 
that are back to back share the same channel so that when they 
transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other 
as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other.  
The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity 
to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without 
self interference.  If long range rural deployments are the plan then 
GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the 
same equipment and configuration in the area.  So a Moto advantage 
cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP 
bandwidth available to it.  If more is needed you can place the towers 
with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a 
possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a 
given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate 
clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same 
tower.  I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a 
little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over 
the phone and explain it.  Send me an email to anthonyw (at) 
broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a 
call.


Anthony Will
Broadband Corp.

Travis 

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Gino A. Villarini]

Not the case, 14 mbps is 2x mode, but the only reason for all your Sm's
would be a 1x would be cause they are old radios (p7,p8) or you have very
poor links ...

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Wednesday, October 04, 2006 7:03 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

So the AP will deliver 14Mbps of bandwidth even if all the SM's are only 
running at 1x rate?

Travis
Microserv

Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:

>Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's.
>
>With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High
>Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need
>the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM.
>
>
>To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb
>Aggregate.
>
>Mike Bushard, Jr
>Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM
>To: WISPA General List
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
>
>Another quick question...
>
>If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy 
>SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be 
>limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)?
>
>Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular?
>
>Travis
>Microserv
>
>Anthony Will wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind 
>>you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has 
>>traditionally understated there spec sheets.  The GPS is what sets the 
>>timing for the AP's.  The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all 
>>SM's registered to them.  So how it works is that all AP's on channel 
>>1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced 
>>to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same 
>>time.  Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature 
>>set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and 
>>AP to a BH or AP.  The lag that is introduced by having to transmit 
>>that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is 
>>the only time that distance can come into play.  The application this 
>>is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to 
>>have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower.
>>/>SM
>>GPS -->AP#1 /
>>   \
>> \>SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#2 
>>-->SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#3 (this AP will be out of 
>>sync with AP#1)
>>
>>Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long 
>>for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to 
>>propagate the timing signal.  But if you put a GPS sync generating 
>>device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough 
>>timing with AP#2 that they all would get along.
>>
>>One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the 
>>area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost 
>>of the GPS synchronizing items.  Also again as for the distance 
>>statement.  6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced.  
>>believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good 
>>enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6" away from it.  The two AP's 
>>that are back to back share the same channel so that when they 
>>transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other 
>>as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other.  
>>The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity 
>>to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without 
>>self interference.  If long range rural deployments are the plan then 
>>GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the 
>>same equipment and configuration in the area.  So a Moto advantage 
>>cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP 
>>bandwidth available to it.  If more is needed you can place the towers 
>>with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a 
>>possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a 
>>given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate 
>>clus

Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Travis Johnson]

So the AP will deliver 14Mbps of bandwidth even if all the SM's are only 
running at 1x rate?


Travis
Microserv

Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:


Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's.

With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High
Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need
the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM.


To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb
Aggregate.

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Another quick question...

If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy 
SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be 
limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)?


Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular?

Travis
Microserv

Anthony Will wrote:

 

Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind 
you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has 
traditionally understated there spec sheets.  The GPS is what sets the 
timing for the AP's.  The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all 
SM's registered to them.  So how it works is that all AP's on channel 
1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced 
to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same 
time.  Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature 
set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and 
AP to a BH or AP.  The lag that is introduced by having to transmit 
that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is 
the only time that distance can come into play.  The application this 
is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to 
have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower.

   />SM
GPS -->AP#1 /
  \
\>SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#2 
-->SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#3 (this AP will be out of 
sync with AP#1)


Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long 
for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to 
propagate the timing signal.  But if you put a GPS sync generating 
device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough 
timing with AP#2 that they all would get along.


One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the 
area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost 
of the GPS synchronizing items.  Also again as for the distance 
statement.  6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced.  
believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good 
enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6" away from it.  The two AP's 
that are back to back share the same channel so that when they 
transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other 
as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other.  
The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity 
to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without 
self interference.  If long range rural deployments are the plan then 
GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the 
same equipment and configuration in the area.  So a Moto advantage 
cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP 
bandwidth available to it.  If more is needed you can place the towers 
with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a 
possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a 
given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate 
clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same 
tower.  I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a 
little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over 
the phone and explain it.  Send me an email to anthonyw (at) 
broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a 
call.


Anthony Will
Broadband Corp.

Travis Johnson wrote:

   


Hi,

First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI.

What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile 
range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, 
causing self-interference, correct?


Travis
Microserv

Anthony Will wrote:

 


Answers in-line

Travis Johnson wrote:

   


Hi,

I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can 
compare for myself...


Trango 2.4ghz:
5Mbps auto ratio
8 non-overlapping channels
10mhz spectrum per channel
-90 Receive level
15 mile range (without a grid)
External connect

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Mike Bushard, Jr]

So everything will be Advantage I wont complain.

I wonder if the AP prices will drop then?

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Ralph Fowler
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 2:53 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

I was told a couple of days ago that the "regular" SMs are going away soon.
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:26 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

You can have the cake and eat it too!!

Advantage AP to Classic SM can achieve 14 mbps to the Classic SM, not
sustained, only burstable.

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Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)

[Cliff Leboeuf]

Title: Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)



“Association of Closet and Storage Professionals”
http://www.closets.org/

Humm... Is Charles trying to tell us something :)



On 9/29/06 4:22 PM, "Dylan Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  On 9/29/06, Ron Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Charles,
 
I know this is a duh question, but what is an ACSP??

DUH. Google is your friend. It's *obviously* the Australasian College of Sports Physicians.  

;)





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Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)

[Dylan Oliver]

On 9/29/06, Ron Wallace <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Charles,
 
I know this is a duh question, but what is an ACSP??
DUH. Google is your friend. It's *obviously* the Australasian College of Sports Physicians.;)-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC
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Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)

[Ron Wallace]

Charles,
 
I know this is a duh question, but what is an ACSP??
 Ron Wallace Hahnron, Inc. 220 S. Jackson Dt. Addison, MI 49220 Phone: (517)547-8410 Mobile: (517)605-4542 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]>-Original Message->From: Charles Wu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:27 PM>To: ''WISPA General List''>Subject: RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)>>As one of Canopy's largest ACSPs in the US, I know all the people at Canopy>We have been talking about WISPA -- and are putting something together for a>sponsorship>>Stay tuned...>>-Charles>>--->Operating Manager - CTI>I'm back...>>WiNOG Wireless Roadshows>Coming to a City Near You>http://www.winog.com >>>>-Original Message->From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On>Behalf Of Mike Bushard, Jr>Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:37 AM>To: 'WISPA General List'>Subject: RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)>>>I have a few phone numbers. The tech support has gotten better, but I only>call them with Prizm/BAM problems.>>I really don't know that they have a "Patrick" but the area rep is helpful.>He has always gotten me to the right person.>>Mike Rosedale Cell 847.722.1047>>>>Mike Bushard, Jr>Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC>>>-Original Message----->From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On>Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher>Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:20 AM>To: WISPA General List>Subject: Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)>>Partial hijack here. On a related subject, is there anyone at Motorola >that is "really good with WISPs". Someone who I can call and talk to as >a Canopy user. Not a script reader. I admit I have never called them. >I rely on vendors, and other WISPs for all Canopy related info and >support. Moto is so big, I'm scared that I'd get the "hold music" for >an hour and them some dude that I can't understand..Ok..what I >want to know is what moto # do I call to talk to their "Patrick Leary". >:) *Patrick suddenly feels warm and fuzzy inside...* So I guess this >isn't too much of a hijack. :) How do we contact their "Patrick". >After we know that we can talk to him about joining.>>Brian>>>Dylan Oliver wrote:>>> On 9/28/06, *Rick Harnish* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> > wrote:>>>> If we can get Motorola to become a WISPA vendor member, we will>> gladly start a list here without those restrictions.>>>> How has Motorola been approached?>>>> Best,>> -->> Dylan Oliver>> Primaverity, LLC >>-- >WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless>>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/>>-- >WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe: http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless>>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/>>>-- >WISPA Wireless List: wireless@wispa.org>>Subscribe/Unsubscribe:>http://lists.wispa.org/mailman/listinfo/wireless>>Archives: http://lists.wispa.org/pipermail/wireless/>
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RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Ralph Fowler]

I was told a couple of days ago that the "regular" SMs are going away soon.
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Gino A. Villarini
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:26 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

You can have the cake and eat it too!!

Advantage AP to Classic SM can achieve 14 mbps to the Classic SM, not
sustained, only burstable.

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RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)

[Rick Harnish]

Thanks Charles, I figured you were on top of it.

Rick Harnish
President
OnlyInternet Broadband & Wireless, Inc.
260-827-2482
Founding Member of WISPA

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Charles Wu
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2006 12:28 PM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)

As one of Canopy's largest ACSPs in the US, I know all the people at Canopy
We have been talking about WISPA -- and are putting something together for a
sponsorship

Stay tuned...

-Charles

---
Operating Manager - CTI
I'm back...

WiNOG Wireless Roadshows
Coming to a City Near You
http://www.winog.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Bushard, Jr
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:37 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)


I have a few phone numbers. The tech support has gotten better, but I only
call them with Prizm/BAM problems.

I really don't know that they have a "Patrick" but the area rep is helpful.
He has always gotten me to the right person.

Mike Rosedale Cell 847.722.1047



Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:20 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)

Partial hijack here.  On a related subject, is there anyone at Motorola 
that is "really good with WISPs".  Someone who I can call and talk to as 
a Canopy user.  Not a script reader.  I admit I have never called them.  
I rely on vendors, and other WISPs for all Canopy related info and 
support.  Moto is so big, I'm scared that I'd get the "hold music" for 
an hour and them some dude that I can't understand..Ok..what I 
want to know is what moto # do I call to talk to their "Patrick Leary".  
:)*Patrick suddenly feels warm and fuzzy inside...*  So I guess this 
isn't too much of a hijack.  :)  How do we contact their "Patrick".  
After we know that we can talk to him about joining.

Brian


Dylan Oliver wrote:

> On 9/28/06, *Rick Harnish* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>
> If we can get Motorola to become a WISPA vendor member, we will
> gladly start a list here without those restrictions.
>
> How has Motorola been approached?
>
> Best,
> --
> Dylan Oliver
> Primaverity, LLC 

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RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)

[Charles Wu]

As one of Canopy's largest ACSPs in the US, I know all the people at Canopy
We have been talking about WISPA -- and are putting something together for a
sponsorship

Stay tuned...

-Charles

---
Operating Manager - CTI
I'm back...

WiNOG Wireless Roadshows
Coming to a City Near You
http://www.winog.com 



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Mike Bushard, Jr
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:37 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)


I have a few phone numbers. The tech support has gotten better, but I only
call them with Prizm/BAM problems.

I really don't know that they have a "Patrick" but the area rep is helpful.
He has always gotten me to the right person.

Mike Rosedale Cell 847.722.1047



Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:20 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)

Partial hijack here.  On a related subject, is there anyone at Motorola 
that is "really good with WISPs".  Someone who I can call and talk to as 
a Canopy user.  Not a script reader.  I admit I have never called them.  
I rely on vendors, and other WISPs for all Canopy related info and 
support.  Moto is so big, I'm scared that I'd get the "hold music" for 
an hour and them some dude that I can't understand..Ok..what I 
want to know is what moto # do I call to talk to their "Patrick Leary".  
:)*Patrick suddenly feels warm and fuzzy inside...*  So I guess this 
isn't too much of a hijack.  :)  How do we contact their "Patrick".  
After we know that we can talk to him about joining.

Brian


Dylan Oliver wrote:

> On 9/28/06, *Rick Harnish* <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>
> If we can get Motorola to become a WISPA vendor member, we will
> gladly start a list here without those restrictions.
>
> How has Motorola been approached?
>
> Best,
> --
> Dylan Oliver
> Primaverity, LLC 

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RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)

[Dustin Jurman]

Don,  you talking about the AZ
event?  

 

DSJ

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Renner
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006
10:58 AM
To: 'WISPA General List'
Subject: RE: Motorola membership
(Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)



 

I will be in meetings with Motorola next
week.  Will see if can get done. 

 

What level did Alvarion commit to? 
Might help get them to make bigger outlay.

 

Don Renner

NetsurfUSA, Inc.

812-936-4514

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Harnish
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006
8:44 AM
To: 'WISPA
 General List'
Subject: RE: Motorola membership
(Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)



 

I’m not sure whether they have
yet.  I think they were last year but I don’t recall right now. 
Anyone who is a valuable Motorola customer want to take this on?  

 



Rick Harnish

President

OnlyInternet Broadband & Wireless,
Inc.

260-827-2482

Founding Member of WISPA











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dylan Oliver
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006
9:16 AM
To: WISPA
 General List
Subject: Motorola membership (Re:
[WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)



 

On 9/28/06, Rick Harnish
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:









If we can get Motorola to become a WISPA vendor member, we
will gladly start a list here without those restrictions.  









How has Motorola been approached?

Best,
-- 
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC 






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RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Gino A. Villarini]

www.packetflux.com

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 6:06 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Someone posted a 3rd party GPS sync module (around $300 I think?). Can 
someone share that info with me again, please? :)

Travis
Microserv

Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:

>Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's.
>
>With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High
>Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need
>the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM.
>
>
>To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb
>Aggregate.
>
>Mike Bushard, Jr
>Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM
>To: WISPA General List
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
>
>Another quick question...
>
>If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy 
>SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be 
>limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)?
>
>Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular?
>
>Travis
>Microserv
>
>Anthony Will wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind 
>>you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has 
>>traditionally understated there spec sheets.  The GPS is what sets the 
>>timing for the AP's.  The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all 
>>SM's registered to them.  So how it works is that all AP's on channel 
>>1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced 
>>to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same 
>>time.  Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature 
>>set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and 
>>AP to a BH or AP.  The lag that is introduced by having to transmit 
>>that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is 
>>the only time that distance can come into play.  The application this 
>>is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to 
>>have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower.
>>/>SM
>>GPS -->AP#1 /
>>   \
>> \>SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#2 
>>-->SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#3 (this AP will be out of 
>>sync with AP#1)
>>
>>Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long 
>>for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to 
>>propagate the timing signal.  But if you put a GPS sync generating 
>>device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough 
>>timing with AP#2 that they all would get along.
>>
>>One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the 
>>area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost 
>>of the GPS synchronizing items.  Also again as for the distance 
>>statement.  6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced.  
>>believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good 
>>enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6" away from it.  The two AP's 
>>that are back to back share the same channel so that when they 
>>transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other 
>>as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other.  
>>The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity 
>>to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without 
>>self interference.  If long range rural deployments are the plan then 
>>GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the 
>>same equipment and configuration in the area.  So a Moto advantage 
>>cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP 
>>bandwidth available to it.  If more is needed you can place the towers 
>>with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a 
>>possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a 
>>given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate 
>>clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same 
>>tower.  I can't write out whats in my head on

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Mike Delp]

Sync Pipe from Forrest.  I have three of them that just came in today.

www.packetflux.com

Mike

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 5:06 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Someone posted a 3rd party GPS sync module (around $300 I think?). Can 
someone share that info with me again, please? :)

Travis
Microserv

Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:

>Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's.
>
>With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High
>Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need
>the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM.
>
>
>To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb
>Aggregate.
>
>Mike Bushard, Jr
>Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
>Behalf Of Travis Johnson
>Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM
>To: WISPA General List
>Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon
>
>Another quick question...
>
>If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy 
>SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be 
>limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)?
>
>Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular?
>
>Travis
>Microserv
>
>Anthony Will wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind 
>>you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has 
>>traditionally understated there spec sheets.  The GPS is what sets the 
>>timing for the AP's.  The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all 
>>SM's registered to them.  So how it works is that all AP's on channel 
>>1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced 
>>to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same 
>>time.  Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature 
>>set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and 
>>AP to a BH or AP.  The lag that is introduced by having to transmit 
>>that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is 
>>the only time that distance can come into play.  The application this 
>>is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to 
>>have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower.
>>/>SM
>>GPS -->AP#1 /
>>   \
>> \>SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#2 
>>-->SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#3 (this AP will be out of 
>>sync with AP#1)
>>
>>Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long 
>>for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to 
>>propagate the timing signal.  But if you put a GPS sync generating 
>>device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough 
>>timing with AP#2 that they all would get along.
>>
>>One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the 
>>area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost 
>>of the GPS synchronizing items.  Also again as for the distance 
>>statement.  6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced.  
>>believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good 
>>enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6" away from it.  The two AP's 
>>that are back to back share the same channel so that when they 
>>transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other 
>>as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other.  
>>The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity 
>>to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without 
>>self interference.  If long range rural deployments are the plan then 
>>GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the 
>>same equipment and configuration in the area.  So a Moto advantage 
>>cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP 
>>bandwidth available to it.  If more is needed you can place the towers 
>>with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a 
>>possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a 
>>given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate 
>>clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same 
>>tower.  I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a 
>>

Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Travis Johnson]

Someone posted a 3rd party GPS sync module (around $300 I think?). Can 
someone share that info with me again, please? :)


Travis
Microserv

Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:


Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's.

With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High
Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need
the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM.


To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb
Aggregate.

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Another quick question...

If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy 
SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be 
limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)?


Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular?

Travis
Microserv

Anthony Will wrote:

 

Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind 
you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has 
traditionally understated there spec sheets.  The GPS is what sets the 
timing for the AP's.  The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all 
SM's registered to them.  So how it works is that all AP's on channel 
1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced 
to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same 
time.  Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature 
set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and 
AP to a BH or AP.  The lag that is introduced by having to transmit 
that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is 
the only time that distance can come into play.  The application this 
is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to 
have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower.

   />SM
GPS -->AP#1 /
  \
\>SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#2 
-->SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#3 (this AP will be out of 
sync with AP#1)


Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long 
for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to 
propagate the timing signal.  But if you put a GPS sync generating 
device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough 
timing with AP#2 that they all would get along.


One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the 
area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost 
of the GPS synchronizing items.  Also again as for the distance 
statement.  6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced.  
believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good 
enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6" away from it.  The two AP's 
that are back to back share the same channel so that when they 
transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other 
as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other.  
The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity 
to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without 
self interference.  If long range rural deployments are the plan then 
GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the 
same equipment and configuration in the area.  So a Moto advantage 
cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP 
bandwidth available to it.  If more is needed you can place the towers 
with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a 
possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a 
given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate 
clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same 
tower.  I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a 
little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over 
the phone and explain it.  Send me an email to anthonyw (at) 
broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a 
call.


Anthony Will
Broadband Corp.

Travis Johnson wrote:

   


Hi,

First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI.

What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile 
range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, 
causing self-interference, correct?


Travis
Microserv

Anthony Will wrote:

 


Answers in-line

Travis Johnson wrote:

   


Hi,

I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can 
compare for myself...


Trango 2.4ghz:
5Mbps auto ratio
8 non-overlapping channels
10mhz spectrum per channel
-90 Receive level
15 mile range (without

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Gino A. Villarini]

You can have the cake and eat it too!!

Advantage AP to Classic SM can achieve 14 mbps to the Classic SM, not
sustained, only burstable.

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 12:51 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Another quick question...

If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy 
SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be 
limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)?

Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular?

Travis
Microserv

Anthony Will wrote:

> Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind 
> you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has 
> traditionally understated there spec sheets.  The GPS is what sets the 
> timing for the AP's.  The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all 
> SM's registered to them.  So how it works is that all AP's on channel 
> 1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced 
> to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same 
> time.  Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature 
> set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and 
> AP to a BH or AP.  The lag that is introduced by having to transmit 
> that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is 
> the only time that distance can come into play.  The application this 
> is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to 
> have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower.
> />SM
> GPS -->AP#1 /
>\
>  \>SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#2 
> -->SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#3 (this AP will be out of 
> sync with AP#1)
>
> Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long 
> for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to 
> propagate the timing signal.  But if you put a GPS sync generating 
> device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough 
> timing with AP#2 that they all would get along.
>
> One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the 
> area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost 
> of the GPS synchronizing items.  Also again as for the distance 
> statement.  6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced.  
> believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good 
> enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6" away from it.  The two AP's 
> that are back to back share the same channel so that when they 
> transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other 
> as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other.  
> The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity 
> to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without 
> self interference.  If long range rural deployments are the plan then 
> GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the 
> same equipment and configuration in the area.  So a Moto advantage 
> cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP 
> bandwidth available to it.  If more is needed you can place the towers 
> with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a 
> possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a 
> given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate 
> clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same 
> tower.  I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a 
> little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over 
> the phone and explain it.  Send me an email to anthonyw (at) 
> broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a 
> call.
>
> Anthony Will
> Broadband Corp.
>
> Travis Johnson wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI.
>>
>> What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile 
>> range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, 
>> causing self-interference, correct?
>>
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>
>> Anthony Will wrote:
>>
>>> Answers in-line
>>>
>>> Travis Johnson wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Mike Bushard, Jr]

Run Advantage AP's and Legacy SM's.

With the Advantage AP's and legacy SM's you get the Latency, and High
Priority Channel all the time, and can burst to full 2X Rate. If you need
the full 2x Rate Sustained, buy an Advantage SM.


To answer your question, yes the Advantage AP will deliver the full 14Mb
Aggregate.

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 11:51 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Another quick question...

If you are running a Canopy Advantage AP and you use regular Canopy 
SM's, can the AP still deliver the 14Mbps of bandwidth, or will it be 
limited to 7Mbps (like the SM's)?

Trying to decide if I want to use Advantage SM's or just regular?

Travis
Microserv

Anthony Will wrote:

> Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind 
> you but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has 
> traditionally understated there spec sheets.  The GPS is what sets the 
> timing for the AP's.  The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all 
> SM's registered to them.  So how it works is that all AP's on channel 
> 1 across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced 
> to a AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same 
> time.  Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature 
> set of the SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and 
> AP to a BH or AP.  The lag that is introduced by having to transmit 
> that pulse info across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is 
> the only time that distance can come into play.  The application this 
> is used for is for a cheap repeater system so that you dont have to 
> have a GPS synchronizing device at every tower.
> />SM
> GPS -->AP#1 /
>\
>  \>SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#2 
> -->SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#3 (this AP will be out of 
> sync with AP#1)
>
> Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long 
> for RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to 
> propagate the timing signal.  But if you put a GPS sync generating 
> device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough 
> timing with AP#2 that they all would get along.
>
> One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the 
> area you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost 
> of the GPS synchronizing items.  Also again as for the distance 
> statement.  6 AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced.  
> believe me the messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good 
> enough F/B ratio to not hear another AP 6" away from it.  The two AP's 
> that are back to back share the same channel so that when they 
> transmit the SM's that are listening are as far away from each other 
> as possible and thus reduce any chance of talking over each other.  
> The largest benefit that GPS sync allows is to add additional capacity 
> to area's by allowing for more towers to be in a smaller area without 
> self interference.  If long range rural deployments are the plan then 
> GPS sync will only benefit you if you have competitors utilizing the 
> same equipment and configuration in the area.  So a Moto advantage 
> cluster has about 84mb total (Classic Canopy would be 42mb) FTP 
> bandwidth available to it.  If more is needed you can place the towers 
> with in a few miles and divide a cell into two micro cells each with a 
> possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 168mb serviced to a 
> given area. One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate 
> clusters of the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same 
> tower.  I can't write out whats in my head on this getting a 
> little late in the night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over 
> the phone and explain it.  Send me an email to anthonyw (at) 
> broadband-mn.com and Ill give you my cell phone number or give you a 
> call.
>
> Anthony Will
> Broadband Corp.
>
> Travis Johnson wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI.
>>
>> What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile 
>> range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, 
>> causing self-interference, correct?
>>
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>
>> Anthony Will wrote:
>>
>>> Answers in-line
>>>
>>> Travis Jo

Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Travis Johnson]

eradius.com   It is possible to get them 
cheaper then this but you will have to deal with co-op's or ebay.com
Also I would never install a unit with a 60* pattern (Trango or 
Canopy).  Just include the$50 for a reflector or stinger from 
http://www.wirelessbehive.com





Based on the information from Mike, I could not use Canopy. In 
several areas, I have 4-5 towers located within 5 miles of each 
other how do I do that with Canopy? With Trango, I use a 
different channel for the sector pointing toward another tower 
(frequency planning and coordination is very important) and 
everything works great. Is there a solution for this with Canopy?



This is where GPS sync comes in.  You can point two different tower 
locations on the same frequency at each other and they will not 
interfere with each other.  This is how it is possible to do a 6 AP 
cluster on one tower with only 3 non overlapping channels.




Also, by using only a 10mhz spectrum per channel, Trango's channel 
1 and channel 8 are actually outside the reach of Canopy and 802.11 
(for the most part) and thus can almost always be used in a noisy 
environment.



Remember with Canopy you generally don't have to avoid 
interference.  Find the cleanest channel and 90% of the time you 
will be the few db louder then the noise that you need to make a 
viable link.


Anthony Will
Broadband Corp



Travis
Microserv

Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:

Well, so far as we can tell the only thing that can kill canopy, 
IS CANOPY.
We have put it up against WaveRider, Alvarion, and 802.11b. They 
all fell of

the face of the earth.
We have 16 tower sites deployed, all 900Mhz and 2.4, over 1000 CPE 
and more

on the way. (I realize there are many people bigger than us.)

We use a mix of MTI Omni's, MTI or Tiltek 120deg Sectors (MTI for 
Horizontal
and Tiltek for Vertical) and integrated 60deg sectors (I really 
wish someone
would come out with a descent H-pol as I don't like the integrated 
antenna)

with 900. Cyclone Omni's or 120deg sectors on 2.4.

Here is what I have found with GPS Sourced Sync vs. Generate Sync:

If you want channel reuse you need GPS sourced sync.
If you have a tower more than 8 miles away, you need to use different
channels no matter what, even with GPS sourced sync you still have 
speed of

light issues from tower to tower.

Can you Generate sync and deploy multiple AP's in a given area, 
yes. You
just need to make sure you have Frequency separation. Does this 
mean I

recommend it, NO.

Also even with every site GPS Synced, you still can only put so 
many AP's in
a given area be for you need to go to a different polarity. At 
least we know

there will never be another 900Mhz based ISP in one of our towns.

Also on a side note, I have never found a problem with 2.4, it is 
900 that
will give you problems, it just carries so far. If the noise floor 
was
lower, and Canopy could run at -90 we would have coverage for a 
long ways.

It seems like we can always pick up a AP at -80.

YMMV.

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-----
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Patrick Leary wrote:
 

I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp 
you are
doing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and 
sold to be
primarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp 
network

of any scale that did not require GPS.

  



I'd be interested in further explanation on this topic. We have 
some Canopy pmp and haven't found the lack of GPS a problem. 
Granted we don't have a large amount of pmp, but I would certainly 
like to understand any future pain before we experience it.


-Matt

  




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Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)

[Brian Rohrbacher]

Dylan Oliver wrote:

Just looked at the webpage to gather statistics like WISPA membership 
and mailing list subscription, but did not see it at 
http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=2. What audience will they reach by 
becoming a vendor member?


The "WISPA Vendor Members" text in the left column should be a link to 
either section 7.6.B on the Dues/Elections page or, better, another 
page detailing the benefits of Vendor Membership.


Have Alvarion, Optivon, and Deliberant all ponied up >=$5k for 
advertising space on wispa.org ? Are these the only 
Vendor Members?


I know these three are Vendor Members.  I dunno what was ponied up.

Brian
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RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)

[Mike Bushard, Jr]

I have a few phone numbers. The tech support has gotten better, but I only
call them with Prizm/BAM problems.

I really don't know that they have a "Patrick" but the area rep is helpful.
He has always gotten me to the right person.

Mike Rosedale Cell 847.722.1047



Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Brian Rohrbacher
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006 9:20 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)

Partial hijack here.  On a related subject, is there anyone at Motorola 
that is "really good with WISPs".  Someone who I can call and talk to as 
a Canopy user.  Not a script reader.  I admit I have never called them.  
I rely on vendors, and other WISPs for all Canopy related info and 
support.  Moto is so big, I'm scared that I'd get the "hold music" for 
an hour and them some dude that I can't understand..Ok..what I 
want to know is what moto # do I call to talk to their "Patrick Leary".  
:)*Patrick suddenly feels warm and fuzzy inside...*  So I guess this 
isn't too much of a hijack.  :)  How do we contact their "Patrick".  
After we know that we can talk to him about joining.

Brian


Dylan Oliver wrote:

> On 9/28/06, *Rick Harnish* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]>> wrote:
>
> If we can get Motorola to become a WISPA vendor member, we will
> gladly start a list here without those restrictions. 
>
> How has Motorola been approached?
>
> Best,
> -- 
> Dylan Oliver
> Primaverity, LLC 

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Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)

[Peter R.]

You might want to take this discussion over to the Member list.

Dylan Oliver wrote:

Just looked at the webpage to gather statistics like WISPA membership 
and mailing list subscription, but did not see it at 
http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=2. What audience will they reach by 
becoming a vendor member?


The "WISPA Vendor Members" text in the left column should be a link to 
either section 7.6.B on the Dues/Elections page or, better, another 
page detailing the benefits of Vendor Membership.


Have Alvarion, Optivon, and Deliberant all ponied up >=$5k for 
advertising space on wispa.org ? Are these the only 
Vendor Members?


Best,
--
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC 



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Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)

[Brian Rohrbacher]

Partial hijack here.  On a related subject, is there anyone at Motorola 
that is "really good with WISPs".  Someone who I can call and talk to as 
a Canopy user.  Not a script reader.  I admit I have never called them.  
I rely on vendors, and other WISPs for all Canopy related info and 
support.  Moto is so big, I'm scared that I'd get the "hold music" for 
an hour and them some dude that I can't understand..Ok..what I 
want to know is what moto # do I call to talk to their "Patrick Leary".  
:)*Patrick suddenly feels warm and fuzzy inside...*  So I guess this 
isn't too much of a hijack.  :)  How do we contact their "Patrick".  
After we know that we can talk to him about joining.


Brian


Dylan Oliver wrote:

On 9/28/06, *Rick Harnish* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:


If we can get Motorola to become a WISPA vendor member, we will
gladly start a list here without those restrictions. 


How has Motorola been approached?

Best,
--
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC 


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Re: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)

[Dylan Oliver]

Just looked at the webpage to gather statistics like WISPA membership and mailing list subscription, but did not see it at http://www.wispa.org/?page_id=2. What audience will they reach by becoming a vendor member?
The "WISPA Vendor Members" text in the left column should be a link to either section 7.6.B on the Dues/Elections page or, better, another page detailing the benefits of Vendor Membership.
Have Alvarion, Optivon, and Deliberant all ponied up >=$5k for advertising space on wispa.org? Are these the only Vendor Members?Best,-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC
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RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)

[Don Renner]

I will be in meetings with Motorola next
week.  Will see if can get done. 

 

What level did Alvarion commit to? 
Might help get them to make bigger outlay.

 

Don Renner

NetsurfUSA, Inc.

812-936-4514

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 









From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rick Harnish
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006
8:44 AM
To: 'WISPA
 General List'
Subject: RE: Motorola membership
(Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)



 

I’m not sure whether they have
yet.  I think they were last year but I don’t recall right
now.  Anyone who is a valuable Motorola customer want to take this
on?  

 



Rick Harnish

President

OnlyInternet Broadband & Wireless,
Inc.

260-827-2482

Founding Member of WISPA











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dylan Oliver
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006
9:16 AM
To: WISPA
 General List
Subject: Motorola membership (Re:
[WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)



 

On 9/28/06, Rick Harnish
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:









If we can get Motorola to become a WISPA vendor member, we will
gladly start a list here without those restrictions.  









How has Motorola been approached?

Best,
-- 
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC 








smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
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RE: Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)

[Rick Harnish]

I’m not sure whether they have yet. 
I think they were last year but I don’t recall right now.  Anyone who is
a valuable Motorola customer want to take this on?  

 



Rick Harnish

President

OnlyInternet Broadband & Wireless,
Inc.

260-827-2482

Founding Member of WISPA











From:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dylan Oliver
Sent: Thursday, September 28, 2006
9:16 AM
To: WISPA
 General List
Subject: Motorola membership (Re:
[WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)



 

On 9/28/06, Rick Harnish
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:









If we can get Motorola to become a WISPA vendor member, we
will gladly start a list here without those restrictions.  









How has Motorola been approached?

Best,
-- 
Dylan Oliver
Primaverity, LLC 






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Motorola membership (Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon)

[Dylan Oliver]

On 9/28/06, Rick Harnish <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

















If we can get Motorola to become a WISPA
vendor member, we will gladly start a list here without those restrictions. 
How has Motorola been approached?Best,-- Dylan OliverPrimaverity, LLC
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Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Anthony Will]

part-15.org but I seem to remember that they removed access to the 
archives unless you are a member.  bullit might have changed that since.


Anthony

Travis Johnson wrote:

Is there a Canopy mailing list that is active?

Travis
Microserv


Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:
Here is a crude picture of one of our areas. 


Aside from the one site everything works great. 18 Canopy 900 Sectors in a 6
mile radius. Plus 2 Vertical that are not in the image. Need less to say
that town is pretty well smoked.

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Anthony Will
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:12 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you 
but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has 
traditionally understated there spec sheets.  The GPS is what sets the 
timing for the AP's.  The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's 
registered to them.  So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 
across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a 
AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time.  
Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the 
SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH 
or AP.  The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info 
across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that 
distance can come into play.  The application this is used for is for a 
cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing 
device at every tower.

 />SM
GPS -->AP#1 /
\
  \>SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#2 
-->SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#3 (this AP will be out of 
sync with AP#1)


Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for 
RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to 
propagate the timing signal.  But if you put a GPS sync generating 
device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough 
timing with AP#2 that they all would get along.


One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area 
you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the 
GPS synchronizing items.  Also again as for the distance statement.  6 
AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced.  believe me the 
messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to 
not hear another AP 6" away from it.  The two AP's that are back to back 
share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are 
listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce 
any chance of talking over each other.  The largest benefit that GPS 
sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more 
towers to be in a smaller area without self interference.  If long range 
rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if 
you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in 
the area.  So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic 
Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it.  If more is needed 
you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two 
micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 
168mb serviced to a given area. 
One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of 
the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower.  I can't 
write out whats in my head on this getting a little late in the 
night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over the phone and 
explain it.  Send me an email to anthonyw (at) broadband-mn.com and Ill 
give you my cell phone number or give you a call.


Anthony Will
Broadband Corp.

Travis Johnson wrote:
  

Hi,

First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI.

What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile 
range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, 
causing self-interference, correct?


Travis
Microserv

Anthony Will wrote:



Answers in-line

Travis Johnson wrote:

  

Hi,

I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can 
compare for myself...


Trango 2.4ghz:
5Mbps auto ratio
8 non-overlapping channels
10mhz spectrum per channel
-90 Receive level
15 mile range (without a grid)
External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna
$879 AP (WISP price)
$479 SU (WISP price)

Canopy 2.4ghz (regular):
7Mbps fixed ratio
3 non-overlapping channels
20mhz spectrum per channel
-86 Receive level


2.4 canopy has a -89 receive level

  

5 mile range (without a dish)
$902 AP (reseller price online)
$490 

Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Travis Johnson]

Is there a Canopy mailing list that is active?

Travis
Microserv


Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:

  Here is a crude picture of one of our areas. 

Aside from the one site everything works great. 18 Canopy 900 Sectors in a 6
mile radius. Plus 2 Vertical that are not in the image. Need less to say
that town is pretty well smoked.

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Anthony Will
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:12 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you 
but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has 
traditionally understated there spec sheets.  The GPS is what sets the 
timing for the AP's.  The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's 
registered to them.  So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 
across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a 
AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time.  
Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the 
SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH 
or AP.  The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info 
across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that 
distance can come into play.  The application this is used for is for a 
cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing 
device at every tower.
 />SM
GPS -->AP#1 /
\
  \>SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#2 
-->SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#3 (this AP will be out of 
sync with AP#1)

Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for 
RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to 
propagate the timing signal.  But if you put a GPS sync generating 
device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough 
timing with AP#2 that they all would get along.

One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area 
you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the 
GPS synchronizing items.  Also again as for the distance statement.  6 
AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced.  believe me the 
messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to 
not hear another AP 6" away from it.  The two AP's that are back to back 
share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are 
listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce 
any chance of talking over each other.  The largest benefit that GPS 
sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more 
towers to be in a smaller area without self interference.  If long range 
rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if 
you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in 
the area.  So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic 
Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it.  If more is needed 
you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two 
micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 
168mb serviced to a given area. 
One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of 
the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower.  I can't 
write out whats in my head on this getting a little late in the 
night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over the phone and 
explain it.  Send me an email to anthonyw (at) broadband-mn.com and Ill 
give you my cell phone number or give you a call.

Anthony Will
Broadband Corp.

Travis Johnson wrote:
  
  
Hi,

First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI.

What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile 
range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, 
causing self-interference, correct?

Travis
Microserv

Anthony Will wrote:



  Answers in-line

Travis Johnson wrote:

  
  
Hi,

I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can 
compare for myself...

Trango 2.4ghz:
5Mbps auto ratio
8 non-overlapping channels
10mhz spectrum per channel
-90 Receive level
15 mile range (without a grid)
External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna
$879 AP (WISP price)
$479 SU (WISP price)

Canopy 2.4ghz (regular):
7Mbps fixed ratio
3 non-overlapping channels
20mhz spectrum per channel
-86 Receive level

  
  2.4 canopy has a -89 receive level

  
  
5 mile range (without a dish)
$902 AP (reseller price online)
$490 SU (reseller price online)

  
  I am guessing your quoting single prices here.  Now that maybe viable 
for

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[isplists]

Patrick, ditto on the 3650 band. However the reality is that self and external
interference in the UL world is all too common. You say UL bands or at  
least VL doesn't need GPS capability because of so much capacity. If  
you want I can get you a list of wifi/trango/etc.-to-Canopy 'converts'  
that will tell you otherwise.

Licensed carriers use GPS to greatly diminish what we experience as common day
interference problems. IMO I can't blame the FCC for not giving more  
spectrum than they have as we've already trashed what we've been given.
Lastly, what Moto did was brought GPS sync to the UL world however as  
standard option and in very economical form factor, not expensive  
chassis and such. If you haven't already, get your VL guys with your  
WIMAX guys and you could have a clear winner down the road! :)


Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Quoting Patrick Leary <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:


Jon,

For sure I'm all over GPS for all licensed (world of small channels) and
when there is a small amount of spectrum to work with in UL. For
example, in the coming 3650MHz band, GPS should be a must for PMP. Same
with scaled 900 (we offer it there). It is just not needed with VL. What
for? It already gives massive capacity without any re-use. Even with GPS
and re-use I do not think Canopy can get close to the amount of capacity
VL can offer. Frankly, even if we had it for VL no one would buy it.

No argument from me on the scheduled MAC front, except to the extent
that in UL it needs to come with good interference mitigation (not
talking about self-inflicted interference) techniques to make it useful.

Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 10:37 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Hey Patrick, GPS...there's many reasons and it's not a canopy vs
alvarion debate from my standpoint, more so a scheduled mac(canopy,
wimax, 3G...) vs unscheduled(wifi, VL, currently Trango). I'd predict
that as wisp education progresses, they will realize the power of
scheduled mac and GPS support. By then maybe the rest of the BreezeMAX
code will have made way to the VL engineers and everyone can be happy
:-)

Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Patrick Leary wrote:


Jon,

Why is that the case? You really think GPS on Canopy is some cool
feature? Canopy must have GPS to function. Without it, it kills itself.
It is all to prevent self-inflicted interference (remember, Canopy does
not even have ATPC) and to allow for channel re-use. Other systems,

like

VL, do not need it. It provides far more capacity than Canopy, so it
does not need to re-use channels and with basic channel planning you
don't have issues with self-interference.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243




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RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Patrick Leary]

Jon,

For sure I'm all over GPS for all licensed (world of small channels) and
when there is a small amount of spectrum to work with in UL. For
example, in the coming 3650MHz band, GPS should be a must for PMP. Same
with scaled 900 (we offer it there). It is just not needed with VL. What
for? It already gives massive capacity without any re-use. Even with GPS
and re-use I do not think Canopy can get close to the amount of capacity
VL can offer. Frankly, even if we had it for VL no one would buy it.

No argument from me on the scheduled MAC front, except to the extent
that in UL it needs to come with good interference mitigation (not
talking about self-inflicted interference) techniques to make it useful.

Patrick 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 10:37 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Hey Patrick, GPS...there's many reasons and it's not a canopy vs 
alvarion debate from my standpoint, more so a scheduled mac(canopy, 
wimax, 3G...) vs unscheduled(wifi, VL, currently Trango). I'd predict 
that as wisp education progresses, they will realize the power of 
scheduled mac and GPS support. By then maybe the rest of the BreezeMAX 
code will have made way to the VL engineers and everyone can be happy
:-)

Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Patrick Leary wrote:

>Jon,
>
>Why is that the case? You really think GPS on Canopy is some cool
>feature? Canopy must have GPS to function. Without it, it kills itself.
>It is all to prevent self-inflicted interference (remember, Canopy does
>not even have ATPC) and to allow for channel re-use. Other systems,
like
>VL, do not need it. It provides far more capacity than Canopy, so it
>does not need to re-use channels and with basic channel planning you
>don't have issues with self-interference.
>
>Patrick Leary
>AVP WISP Markets
>Alvarion, Inc.
>o: 650.314.2628
>c: 760.580.0080
>Vonage: 650.641.1243
>  
>

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RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Mike Bushard, Jr]

We have never saw a problem with 2.4 self interfering. Only 900Mhz, and that
is easily fixed. 

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 11:40 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Hi,

First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI.

What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile 
range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, 
causing self-interference, correct?

Travis
Microserv

Anthony Will wrote:

> Answers in-line
>
> Travis Johnson wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can 
>> compare for myself..
>>
>> Trango 2.4ghz:
>> 5Mbps auto ratio
>> 8 non-overlapping channels
>> 10mhz spectrum per channel
>> -90 Receive level
>> 15 mile range (without a grid)
>> External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna
>> $879 AP (WISP price)
>> $479 SU (WISP price)
>>
>> Canopy 2.4ghz (regular):
>> 7Mbps fixed ratio
>> 3 non-overlapping channels
>> 20mhz spectrum per channel
>> -86 Receive level
>
> 2.4 canopy has a -89 receive level
>
>> 5 mile range (without a dish)
>> $902 AP (reseller price online)
>> $490 SU (reseller price online)
>
> I am guessing your quoting single prices here.  Now that maybe viable 
> for this discussion but realistically if a WISP is not financially 
> able to purchase in 25 packs they likely are very underfunded.  So 
> that the information is available a 25 pack of the "Classic" 2.4 ghz 
> Canopy units is $6709 so if you break that down to single price that 
> is about $269ea + $50 for reflector for a total of $319ea.  
> http://www.doubleradius.com   It is possible to get them cheaper then 
> this but you will have to deal with co-op's or ebay.com
> Also I would never install a unit with a 60* pattern (Trango or 
> Canopy).  Just include the$50 for a reflector or stinger from 
> http://www.wirelessbehive.com
>
>>
>>
>> Based on the information from Mike, I could not use Canopy. In 
>> several areas, I have 4-5 towers located within 5 miles of each 
>> other how do I do that with Canopy? With Trango, I use a 
>> different channel for the sector pointing toward another tower 
>> (frequency planning and coordination is very important) and 
>> everything works great. Is there a solution for this with Canopy?
>
> This is where GPS sync comes in.  You can point two different tower 
> locations on the same frequency at each other and they will not 
> interfere with each other.  This is how it is possible to do a 6 AP 
> cluster on one tower with only 3 non overlapping channels.
>
>>
>> Also, by using only a 10mhz spectrum per channel, Trango's channel 1 
>> and channel 8 are actually outside the reach of Canopy and 802.11 
>> (for the most part) and thus can almost always be used in a noisy 
>> environment.
>
> Remember with Canopy you generally don't have to avoid interference.  
> Find the cleanest channel and 90% of the time you will be the few db 
> louder then the noise that you need to make a viable link.
>
> Anthony Will
> Broadband Corp
>
>>
>> Travis
>> Microserv
>>
>> Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:
>>
>>> Well, so far as we can tell the only thing that can kill canopy, IS 
>>> CANOPY.
>>> We have put it up against WaveRider, Alvarion, and 802.11b. They all 
>>> fell of
>>> the face of the earth.
>>> We have 16 tower sites deployed, all 900Mhz and 2.4, over 1000 CPE 
>>> and more
>>> on the way. (I realize there are many people bigger than us.)
>>>
>>> We use a mix of MTI Omni's, MTI or Tiltek 120deg Sectors (MTI for 
>>> Horizontal
>>> and Tiltek for Vertical) and integrated 60deg sectors (I really wish 
>>> someone
>>> would come out with a descent H-pol as I don't like the integrated 
>>> antenna)
>>> with 900. Cyclone Omni's or 120deg sectors on 2.4.
>>>
>>> Here is what I have found with GPS Sourced Sync vs. Generate Sync:
>>>
>>> If you want channel reuse you need GPS sourced sync.
>>> If you have a tower more than 8 miles away, you need to use different
>>> channels no matter what, even with GPS sourced sync you still have 
>>> speed of
>>> light issues from tower to tower.
>>>
>>> Can you Generate sync and deploy multiple AP's in a given area, yes. 
>>&g

RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Mike Bushard, Jr]

Here is a crude picture of one of our areas. 

Aside from the one site everything works great. 18 Canopy 900 Sectors in a 6
mile radius. Plus 2 Vertical that are not in the image. Need less to say
that town is pretty well smoked.

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Anthony Will
Sent: Tuesday, September 26, 2006 1:12 AM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Well I have had 2.4ghz radio's link up at -89db (not very well mind you 
but...) so I don't know what to tell you other then Moto has 
traditionally understated there spec sheets.  The GPS is what sets the 
timing for the AP's.  The AP's coordinate the timing slots for all SM's 
registered to them.  So how it works is that all AP's on channel 1 
across the world all transmit at the same time, and all SM's synced to a 
AP on channel 1 with GPS timing from the AP listen at the same time.  
Distance is not relevant unless you are utilizing the feature set of the 
SM to retransmit a GPS sync pulse that it receives from and AP to a BH 
or AP.  The lag that is introduced by having to transmit that pulse info 
across the wireless link to the SM retransmitting is the only time that 
distance can come into play.  The application this is used for is for a 
cheap repeater system so that you dont have to have a GPS synchronizing 
device at every tower.
 />SM
GPS -->AP#1 /
\
  \>SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#2 
-->SM (retransmitting GPS sync pulse) -->AP#3 (this AP will be out of 
sync with AP#1)

Basically the timing is measured in nano seconds so it takes to long for 
RF to transmit the data across the wireless links to continue to 
propagate the timing signal.  But if you put a GPS sync generating 
device at AP#3 it would be in perfect time with AP#1 and close enough 
timing with AP#2 that they all would get along.

One thing to keep in mind is if you are the only Canopy shop in the area 
you can have your AP's generate the sync pulse and avoid the cost of the 
GPS synchronizing items.  Also again as for the distance statement.  6 
AP's in a cluster sharing 3 channels have to be synced.  believe me the 
messy antenna on the Canopy units dont have a good enough F/B ratio to 
not hear another AP 6" away from it.  The two AP's that are back to back 
share the same channel so that when they transmit the SM's that are 
listening are as far away from each other as possible and thus reduce 
any chance of talking over each other.  The largest benefit that GPS 
sync allows is to add additional capacity to area's by allowing for more 
towers to be in a smaller area without self interference.  If long range 
rural deployments are the plan then GPS sync will only benefit you if 
you have competitors utilizing the same equipment and configuration in 
the area.  So a Moto advantage cluster has about 84mb total (Classic 
Canopy would be 42mb) FTP bandwidth available to it.  If more is needed 
you can place the towers with in a few miles and divide a cell into two 
micro cells each with a possible 84mb of total bandwidth for a total of 
168mb serviced to a given area. 
One last note, GPS timing will not allow for two separate clusters of 
the same type ( two 2.4ghz clusters) to be on the same tower.  I can't 
write out whats in my head on this getting a little late in the 
night but if you wanted to I could talk to you over the phone and 
explain it.  Send me an email to anthonyw (at) broadband-mn.com and Ill 
give you my cell phone number or give you a call.

Anthony Will
Broadband Corp.

Travis Johnson wrote:
> Hi,
>
> First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI.
>
> What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile 
> range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, 
> causing self-interference, correct?
>
> Travis
> Microserv
>
> Anthony Will wrote:
>
>> Answers in-line
>>
>> Travis Johnson wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can 
>>> compare for myself...
>>>
>>> Trango 2.4ghz:
>>> 5Mbps auto ratio
>>> 8 non-overlapping channels
>>> 10mhz spectrum per channel
>>> -90 Receive level
>>> 15 mile range (without a grid)
>>> External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna
>>> $879 AP (WISP price)
>>> $479 SU (WISP price)
>>>
>>> Canopy 2.4ghz (regular):
>>> 7Mbps fixed ratio
>>> 3 non-overlapping channels
>>> 20mhz spectrum per channel
>>> -86 Receive level
>>
>> 2.4 canopy has a -89 receive level
>>
>

Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Anthony Will]

nopy. In 
several areas, I have 4-5 towers located within 5 miles of each 
other how do I do that with Canopy? With Trango, I use a 
different channel for the sector pointing toward another tower 
(frequency planning and coordination is very important) and 
everything works great. Is there a solution for this with Canopy?


This is where GPS sync comes in.  You can point two different tower 
locations on the same frequency at each other and they will not 
interfere with each other.  This is how it is possible to do a 6 AP 
cluster on one tower with only 3 non overlapping channels.




Also, by using only a 10mhz spectrum per channel, Trango's channel 1 
and channel 8 are actually outside the reach of Canopy and 802.11 
(for the most part) and thus can almost always be used in a noisy 
environment.


Remember with Canopy you generally don't have to avoid interference.  
Find the cleanest channel and 90% of the time you will be the few db 
louder then the noise that you need to make a viable link.


Anthony Will
Broadband Corp



Travis
Microserv

Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:

Well, so far as we can tell the only thing that can kill canopy, IS 
CANOPY.
We have put it up against WaveRider, Alvarion, and 802.11b. They 
all fell of

the face of the earth.
We have 16 tower sites deployed, all 900Mhz and 2.4, over 1000 CPE 
and more

on the way. (I realize there are many people bigger than us.)

We use a mix of MTI Omni's, MTI or Tiltek 120deg Sectors (MTI for 
Horizontal
and Tiltek for Vertical) and integrated 60deg sectors (I really 
wish someone
would come out with a descent H-pol as I don't like the integrated 
antenna)

with 900. Cyclone Omni's or 120deg sectors on 2.4.

Here is what I have found with GPS Sourced Sync vs. Generate Sync:

If you want channel reuse you need GPS sourced sync.
If you have a tower more than 8 miles away, you need to use different
channels no matter what, even with GPS sourced sync you still have 
speed of

light issues from tower to tower.

Can you Generate sync and deploy multiple AP's in a given area, 
yes. You

just need to make sure you have Frequency separation. Does this mean I
recommend it, NO.

Also even with every site GPS Synced, you still can only put so 
many AP's in
a given area be for you need to go to a different polarity. At 
least we know

there will never be another 900Mhz based ISP in one of our towns.

Also on a side note, I have never found a problem with 2.4, it is 
900 that

will give you problems, it just carries so far. If the noise floor was
lower, and Canopy could run at -90 we would have coverage for a 
long ways.

It seems like we can always pick up a AP at -80.

YMMV.

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On

Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Patrick Leary wrote:
 

I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp you 
are
doing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and sold 
to be
primarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp 
network

of any scale that did not require GPS.

  


I'd be interested in further explanation on this topic. We have 
some Canopy pmp and haven't found the lack of GPS a problem. 
Granted we don't have a large amount of pmp, but I would certainly 
like to understand any future pain before we experience it.


-Matt

  



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Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Jon Langeler]

Hey Patrick, GPS...there's many reasons and it's not a canopy vs 
alvarion debate from my standpoint, more so a scheduled mac(canopy, 
wimax, 3G...) vs unscheduled(wifi, VL, currently Trango). I'd predict 
that as wisp education progresses, they will realize the power of 
scheduled mac and GPS support. By then maybe the rest of the BreezeMAX 
code will have made way to the VL engineers and everyone can be happy :-)


Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Patrick Leary wrote:


Jon,

Why is that the case? You really think GPS on Canopy is some cool
feature? Canopy must have GPS to function. Without it, it kills itself.
It is all to prevent self-inflicted interference (remember, Canopy does
not even have ATPC) and to allow for channel re-use. Other systems, like
VL, do not need it. It provides far more capacity than Canopy, so it
does not need to re-use channels and with basic channel planning you
don't have issues with self-interference.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243
 



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Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Jon Langeler]

The timing or range is a configurable setting in canopy, you set them at 
20 miles and the AP's as far as 20 miles and under will all be in sync. 
If you have 2 AP past 20 miles but LOS to each other, you can calulate 
to see if the RSSI on the AP's is close to the reciever sensitivity(or 
noise floor) of either AP. If it is above the sensitivity or noise, that 
AP could cause small amount of extra interference(self interference) but 
again this is very rare until you get to the 900MHz freq. In that 
scenario canopy advertises 40 miles LOS(no noise), so that should give 
you an idea of how much self interference may be occuring in 
un-syncronized networks.


Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Travis Johnson wrote:


Hi,

First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI.

What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile 
range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, 
causing self-interference, correct?


Travis
Microserv



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Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Jon Langeler]

GPS allows for ALL of the following to simultaneously take place:
the use of the same channel(chan 1 for ex.) on vertical polarization 
multiple times on a single tower
the use of the same channel(chan 1 for ex.) on horizontal polarization 
multiple times on a single tower
the use of the same channel on neighboring sectors that face each 
other(IE two ap screaming at each other)


To do GPS network design for maximum AP deployemnt, it's not something 
you'll find in the canopy manual but is a good start. Canopy is like 
wimax, 3G, etc. all use GPS... How else can you cover a city with only 
15-30MHz of spectrum.


Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Travis Johnson wrote:


Hi,

I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can 
compare for myself...


Trango 2.4ghz:
5Mbps auto ratio
8 non-overlapping channels
10mhz spectrum per channel
-90 Receive level
15 mile range (without a grid)
External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna
$879 AP (WISP price)
$479 SU (WISP price)

Canopy 2.4ghz (regular):
7Mbps fixed ratio
3 non-overlapping channels
20mhz spectrum per channel
-86 Receive level
5 mile range (without a dish)
$902 AP (reseller price online)
$490 SU (reseller price online)


Based on the information from Mike, I could not use Canopy. In several 
areas, I have 4-5 towers located within 5 miles of each other how 
do I do that with Canopy? With Trango, I use a different channel for 
the sector pointing toward another tower (frequency planning and 
coordination is very important) and everything works great. Is there a 
solution for this with Canopy?


Also, by using only a 10mhz spectrum per channel, Trango's channel 1 
and channel 8 are actually outside the reach of Canopy and 802.11 (for 
the most part) and thus can almost always be used in a noisy environment.


Travis
Microserv

Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:


Well, so far as we can tell the only thing that can kill canopy, IS CANOPY.
We have put it up against WaveRider, Alvarion, and 802.11b. They all fell of
the face of the earth. 


We have 16 tower sites deployed, all 900Mhz and 2.4, over 1000 CPE and more
on the way. (I realize there are many people bigger than us.)

We use a mix of MTI Omni's, MTI or Tiltek 120deg Sectors (MTI for Horizontal
and Tiltek for Vertical) and integrated 60deg sectors (I really wish someone
would come out with a descent H-pol as I don't like the integrated antenna)
with 900. Cyclone Omni's or 120deg sectors on 2.4.

Here is what I have found with GPS Sourced Sync vs. Generate Sync:

If you want channel reuse you need GPS sourced sync.
If you have a tower more than 8 miles away, you need to use different
channels no matter what, even with GPS sourced sync you still have speed of
light issues from tower to tower.

Can you Generate sync and deploy multiple AP's in a given area, yes. You
just need to make sure you have Frequency separation. Does this mean I
recommend it, NO.

Also even with every site GPS Synced, you still can only put so many AP's in
a given area be for you need to go to a different polarity. At least we know
there will never be another 900Mhz based ISP in one of our towns.

Also on a side note, I have never found a problem with 2.4, it is 900 that
will give you problems, it just carries so far. If the noise floor was
lower, and Canopy could run at -90 we would have coverage for a long ways.
It seems like we can always pick up a AP at -80.

YMMV.

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Patrick Leary wrote:
 


I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp you are
doing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and sold to be
primarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp network
of any scale that did not require GPS.

 
   

I'd be interested in further explanation on this topic. We have some 
Canopy pmp and haven't found the lack of GPS a problem. Granted we don't 
have a large amount of pmp, but I would certainly like to understand any 
future pain before we experience it.


-Matt

 




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Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Travis Johnson]

Hi,

First, the spec sheet on Motorola's website says -86 RSSI.

What happens when you have more than 3 towers outside of the 8 mile 
range of GPS sync? The 2.4ghz signal will definately travel that far, 
causing self-interference, correct?


Travis
Microserv

Anthony Will wrote:


Answers in-line

Travis Johnson wrote:


Hi,

I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can 
compare for myself...


Trango 2.4ghz:
5Mbps auto ratio
8 non-overlapping channels
10mhz spectrum per channel
-90 Receive level
15 mile range (without a grid)
External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna
$879 AP (WISP price)
$479 SU (WISP price)

Canopy 2.4ghz (regular):
7Mbps fixed ratio
3 non-overlapping channels
20mhz spectrum per channel
-86 Receive level


2.4 canopy has a -89 receive level


5 mile range (without a dish)
$902 AP (reseller price online)
$490 SU (reseller price online)


I am guessing your quoting single prices here.  Now that maybe viable 
for this discussion but realistically if a WISP is not financially 
able to purchase in 25 packs they likely are very underfunded.  So 
that the information is available a 25 pack of the "Classic" 2.4 ghz 
Canopy units is $6709 so if you break that down to single price that 
is about $269ea + $50 for reflector for a total of $319ea.  
http://www.doubleradius.com   It is possible to get them cheaper then 
this but you will have to deal with co-op's or ebay.com
Also I would never install a unit with a 60* pattern (Trango or 
Canopy).  Just include the$50 for a reflector or stinger from 
http://www.wirelessbehive.com





Based on the information from Mike, I could not use Canopy. In 
several areas, I have 4-5 towers located within 5 miles of each 
other how do I do that with Canopy? With Trango, I use a 
different channel for the sector pointing toward another tower 
(frequency planning and coordination is very important) and 
everything works great. Is there a solution for this with Canopy?


This is where GPS sync comes in.  You can point two different tower 
locations on the same frequency at each other and they will not 
interfere with each other.  This is how it is possible to do a 6 AP 
cluster on one tower with only 3 non overlapping channels.




Also, by using only a 10mhz spectrum per channel, Trango's channel 1 
and channel 8 are actually outside the reach of Canopy and 802.11 
(for the most part) and thus can almost always be used in a noisy 
environment.


Remember with Canopy you generally don't have to avoid interference.  
Find the cleanest channel and 90% of the time you will be the few db 
louder then the noise that you need to make a viable link.


Anthony Will
Broadband Corp



Travis
Microserv

Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:

Well, so far as we can tell the only thing that can kill canopy, IS 
CANOPY.
We have put it up against WaveRider, Alvarion, and 802.11b. They all 
fell of

the face of the earth.
We have 16 tower sites deployed, all 900Mhz and 2.4, over 1000 CPE 
and more

on the way. (I realize there are many people bigger than us.)

We use a mix of MTI Omni's, MTI or Tiltek 120deg Sectors (MTI for 
Horizontal
and Tiltek for Vertical) and integrated 60deg sectors (I really wish 
someone
would come out with a descent H-pol as I don't like the integrated 
antenna)

with 900. Cyclone Omni's or 120deg sectors on 2.4.

Here is what I have found with GPS Sourced Sync vs. Generate Sync:

If you want channel reuse you need GPS sourced sync.
If you have a tower more than 8 miles away, you need to use different
channels no matter what, even with GPS sourced sync you still have 
speed of

light issues from tower to tower.

Can you Generate sync and deploy multiple AP's in a given area, yes. 
You

just need to make sure you have Frequency separation. Does this mean I
recommend it, NO.

Also even with every site GPS Synced, you still can only put so many 
AP's in
a given area be for you need to go to a different polarity. At least 
we know

there will never be another 900Mhz based ISP in one of our towns.

Also on a side note, I have never found a problem with 2.4, it is 
900 that

will give you problems, it just carries so far. If the noise floor was
lower, and Canopy could run at -90 we would have coverage for a long 
ways.

It seems like we can always pick up a AP at -80.

YMMV.

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Patrick Leary wrote:
 


I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp you are
doing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and sold 
to be
primarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp 
network

of any scale that did not require GPS.

  


I'd be interested in further explanation 

Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Anthony Will]

Answers in-line

Travis Johnson wrote:

Hi,

I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can 
compare for myself...


Trango 2.4ghz:
5Mbps auto ratio
8 non-overlapping channels
10mhz spectrum per channel
-90 Receive level
15 mile range (without a grid)
External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna
$879 AP (WISP price)
$479 SU (WISP price)

Canopy 2.4ghz (regular):
7Mbps fixed ratio
3 non-overlapping channels
20mhz spectrum per channel
-86 Receive level

2.4 canopy has a -89 receive level

5 mile range (without a dish)
$902 AP (reseller price online)
$490 SU (reseller price online)
I am guessing your quoting single prices here.  Now that maybe viable 
for this discussion but realistically if a WISP is not financially able 
to purchase in 25 packs they likely are very underfunded.  So that the 
information is available a 25 pack of the "Classic" 2.4 ghz Canopy units 
is $6709 so if you break that down to single price that is about $269ea 
+ $50 for reflector for a total of $319ea.  
http://www.doubleradius.com   It is possible to get them cheaper then 
this but you will have to deal with co-op's or ebay.com
Also I would never install a unit with a 60* pattern (Trango or 
Canopy).  Just include the$50 for a reflector or stinger from 
http://www.wirelessbehive.com



Based on the information from Mike, I could not use Canopy. In several 
areas, I have 4-5 towers located within 5 miles of each other how 
do I do that with Canopy? With Trango, I use a different channel for 
the sector pointing toward another tower (frequency planning and 
coordination is very important) and everything works great. Is there a 
solution for this with Canopy?
This is where GPS sync comes in.  You can point two different tower 
locations on the same frequency at each other and they will not 
interfere with each other.  This is how it is possible to do a 6 AP 
cluster on one tower with only 3 non overlapping channels.


Also, by using only a 10mhz spectrum per channel, Trango's channel 1 
and channel 8 are actually outside the reach of Canopy and 802.11 (for 
the most part) and thus can almost always be used in a noisy environment.
Remember with Canopy you generally don't have to avoid interference.  
Find the cleanest channel and 90% of the time you will be the few db 
louder then the noise that you need to make a viable link.


Anthony Will
Broadband Corp


Travis
Microserv

Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:

Well, so far as we can tell the only thing that can kill canopy, IS CANOPY.
We have put it up against WaveRider, Alvarion, and 802.11b. They all fell of
the face of the earth. 


We have 16 tower sites deployed, all 900Mhz and 2.4, over 1000 CPE and more
on the way. (I realize there are many people bigger than us.)

We use a mix of MTI Omni's, MTI or Tiltek 120deg Sectors (MTI for Horizontal
and Tiltek for Vertical) and integrated 60deg sectors (I really wish someone
would come out with a descent H-pol as I don't like the integrated antenna)
with 900. Cyclone Omni's or 120deg sectors on 2.4.

Here is what I have found with GPS Sourced Sync vs. Generate Sync:

If you want channel reuse you need GPS sourced sync.
If you have a tower more than 8 miles away, you need to use different
channels no matter what, even with GPS sourced sync you still have speed of
light issues from tower to tower.

Can you Generate sync and deploy multiple AP's in a given area, yes. You
just need to make sure you have Frequency separation. Does this mean I
recommend it, NO.

Also even with every site GPS Synced, you still can only put so many AP's in
a given area be for you need to go to a different polarity. At least we know
there will never be another 900Mhz based ISP in one of our towns.

Also on a side note, I have never found a problem with 2.4, it is 900 that
will give you problems, it just carries so far. If the noise floor was
lower, and Canopy could run at -90 we would have coverage for a long ways.
It seems like we can always pick up a AP at -80.

YMMV.

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Patrick Leary wrote:
  

I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp you are
doing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and sold to be
primarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp network
of any scale that did not require GPS.

  

I'd be interested in further explanation on this topic. We have some 
Canopy pmp and haven't found the lack of GPS a problem. Granted we don't 
have a large amount of pmp, but I would certainly like to understand any 
future pain before we experience it.


-Matt

  

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Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Rich Comroe]

Well, so far as we can tell the only thing that can kill canopy, IS 
CANOPY.
We have put it up against WaveRider, Alvarion, and 802.11b. They all fell 
of

the face of the earth.


There's a tower farm I've examined quite a bit.  There are 4 separately 
owned 500 ft towers surrounded by a farmer's field, and all 4 towers are 
roughly within 1,000 feet of each other.  Since they are all separately 
owned, you might have guessed, there are 4 different wireless ISPs, one on 
each tower, in the same 5.8GHz band.  By rough count there are 24 separate 
5.8GHz APs all competing within spitting distance of each other.  It makes a 
wonderful lab for real-life interference measurements.


Only one of the four wisps uses Canopy.  While all the Canopy customers meet 
the wisps initial install criteria, the performance dramatically changes 
over time.  I created a midnight script that linktests every Canopy 
subscriber every night, and I can tell you that you can DEFINITELY see the 
impact of non-Canopy interference.  Linktests can be observed to degrade 
over time as the non-Canopy interference levels rises.


What I would say that it is easy for a Canopy wisp to miss becoming aware of 
the interference ... if they weren't watching for it.  We found daily 
linktesting was vital to spotting a change in one of the competitors 
frequency assignments IMMEDIATELY.  It became a losing position to call a 
competitor to complain of an un-coordinated frequency change based on 
interference and hear "we haven't changed anything in months."  Hence our 
nightly testing for interference changes.


Rich

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike Bushard, Jr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: "'WISPA General List'" 
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 9:14 PM
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon


Well, so far as we can tell the only thing that can kill canopy, IS 
CANOPY.
We have put it up against WaveRider, Alvarion, and 802.11b. They all fell 
of

the face of the earth.

We have 16 tower sites deployed, all 900Mhz and 2.4, over 1000 CPE and 
more

on the way. (I realize there are many people bigger than us.)

We use a mix of MTI Omni's, MTI or Tiltek 120deg Sectors (MTI for 
Horizontal
and Tiltek for Vertical) and integrated 60deg sectors (I really wish 
someone
would come out with a descent H-pol as I don't like the integrated 
antenna)

with 900. Cyclone Omni's or 120deg sectors on 2.4.

Here is what I have found with GPS Sourced Sync vs. Generate Sync:

If you want channel reuse you need GPS sourced sync.
If you have a tower more than 8 miles away, you need to use different
channels no matter what, even with GPS sourced sync you still have speed 
of

light issues from tower to tower.

Can you Generate sync and deploy multiple AP's in a given area, yes. You
just need to make sure you have Frequency separation. Does this mean I
recommend it, NO.

Also even with every site GPS Synced, you still can only put so many AP's 
in
a given area be for you need to go to a different polarity. At least we 
know

there will never be another 900Mhz based ISP in one of our towns.

Also on a side note, I have never found a problem with 2.4, it is 900 that
will give you problems, it just carries so far. If the noise floor was
lower, and Canopy could run at -90 we would have coverage for a long ways.
It seems like we can always pick up a AP at -80.

YMMV.

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Patrick Leary wrote:

I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp you are
doing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and sold to be
primarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp network
of any scale that did not require GPS.



I'd be interested in further explanation on this topic. We have some
Canopy pmp and haven't found the lack of GPS a problem. Granted we don't
have a large amount of pmp, but I would certainly like to understand any
future pain before we experience it.

-Matt

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RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Mike Bushard, Jr]

I’ll draw a pretty picture tomorrow,
it’s bed time….

 



Mike Bushard, Jr

Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC

320-256-WISP (9477)

320-256-0178 Direct Line

320-333-9448 Cell

320-256-9478 Fax



 









From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of Travis Johnson
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006
9:46 PM
To: WISPA
 General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs
-- Jon



 

Hi,

I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can compare for
myself...

Trango 2.4ghz:
5Mbps auto ratio
8 non-overlapping channels
10mhz spectrum per channel
-90 Receive level
15 mile range (without a grid)
External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna
$879 AP (WISP price)
$479 SU (WISP price)

Canopy 2.4ghz (regular):
7Mbps fixed ratio
3 non-overlapping channels
20mhz spectrum per channel
-86 Receive level
5 mile range (without a dish)
$902 AP (reseller price online)
$490 SU (reseller price online)


Based on the information from Mike, I could not use Canopy. In several areas, I
have 4-5 towers located within 5 miles of each other how do I do that with
Canopy? With Trango, I use a different channel for the sector pointing toward
another tower (frequency planning and coordination is very important) and
everything works great. Is there a solution for this with Canopy?

Also, by using only a 10mhz spectrum per channel, Trango's channel 1 and
channel 8 are actually outside the reach of Canopy and 802.11 (for the most
part) and thus can almost always be used in a noisy environment.

Travis
Microserv

Mike Bushard, Jr wrote: 

Well, so far as we can tell the only thing that can kill canopy, IS CANOPY.We have put it up against WaveRider, Alvarion, and 802.11b. They all fell ofthe face of the earth.  We have 16 tower sites deployed, all 900Mhz and 2.4, over 1000 CPE and moreon the way. (I realize there are many people bigger than us.) We use a mix of MTI Omni's, MTI or Tiltek 120deg Sectors (MTI for Horizontaland Tiltek for Vertical) and integrated 60deg sectors (I really wish someonewould come out with a descent H-pol as I don't like the integrated antenna)with 900. Cyclone Omni's or 120deg sectors on 2.4. Here is what I have found with GPS Sourced Sync vs. Generate Sync: If you want channel reuse you need GPS sourced sync.If you have a tower more than 8 miles away, you need to use differentchannels no matter what, even with GPS sourced sync you still have speed oflight issues from tower to tower. Can you Generate sync and deploy multiple AP's in a given area, yes. Youjust need to make sure you have Frequency separation. Does this mean Irecommend it, NO. Also even with every site GPS Synced, you still can only put so many AP's ina given area be for you need to go to a different polarity. At least we knowthere will never be another 900Mhz based ISP in one of our towns. Also on a side note, I have never found a problem with 2.4, it is 900 thatwill give you problems, it just carries so far. If the noise floor waslower, and Canopy could run at -90 we would have coverage for a long ways.It seems like we can always pick up a AP at -80. YMMV. Mike Bushard, JrWisper Wireless Solutions, LLC  -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] OnBehalf Of Matt LiottaSent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:07 PMTo: WISPA General ListSubject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon Patrick Leary wrote:  

I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp you aredoing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and sold to beprimarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp networkof any scale that did not require GPS.   

I'd be interested in further explanation on this topic. We have some Canopy pmp and haven't found the lack of GPS a problem. Granted we don't have a large amount of pmp, but I would certainly like to understand any future pain before we experience it. -Matt   




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Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Travis Johnson]

Hi,

I'd like to go back to the specs on different radios just so I can
compare for myself...

Trango 2.4ghz:
5Mbps auto ratio
8 non-overlapping channels
10mhz spectrum per channel
-90 Receive level
15 mile range (without a grid)
External connector and dual-pol integrated antenna
$879 AP (WISP price)
$479 SU (WISP price)

Canopy 2.4ghz (regular):
7Mbps fixed ratio
3 non-overlapping channels
20mhz spectrum per channel
-86 Receive level
5 mile range (without a dish)
$902 AP (reseller price online)
$490 SU (reseller price online)


Based on the information from Mike, I could not use Canopy. In several
areas, I have 4-5 towers located within 5 miles of each other how
do I do that with Canopy? With Trango, I use a different channel for
the sector pointing toward another tower (frequency planning and
coordination is very important) and everything works great. Is there a
solution for this with Canopy?

Also, by using only a 10mhz spectrum per channel, Trango's channel 1
and channel 8 are actually outside the reach of Canopy and 802.11 (for
the most part) and thus can almost always be used in a noisy
environment.

Travis
Microserv

Mike Bushard, Jr wrote:

  Well, so far as we can tell the only thing that can kill canopy, IS CANOPY.
We have put it up against WaveRider, Alvarion, and 802.11b. They all fell of
the face of the earth. 

We have 16 tower sites deployed, all 900Mhz and 2.4, over 1000 CPE and more
on the way. (I realize there are many people bigger than us.)

We use a mix of MTI Omni's, MTI or Tiltek 120deg Sectors (MTI for Horizontal
and Tiltek for Vertical) and integrated 60deg sectors (I really wish someone
would come out with a descent H-pol as I don't like the integrated antenna)
with 900. Cyclone Omni's or 120deg sectors on 2.4.

Here is what I have found with GPS Sourced Sync vs. Generate Sync:

If you want channel reuse you need GPS sourced sync.
If you have a tower more than 8 miles away, you need to use different
channels no matter what, even with GPS sourced sync you still have speed of
light issues from tower to tower.

Can you Generate sync and deploy multiple AP's in a given area, yes. You
just need to make sure you have Frequency separation. Does this mean I
recommend it, NO.

Also even with every site GPS Synced, you still can only put so many AP's in
a given area be for you need to go to a different polarity. At least we know
there will never be another 900Mhz based ISP in one of our towns.

Also on a side note, I have never found a problem with 2.4, it is 900 that
will give you problems, it just carries so far. If the noise floor was
lower, and Canopy could run at -90 we would have coverage for a long ways.
It seems like we can always pick up a AP at -80.

YMMV.

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Patrick Leary wrote:
  
  
I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp you are
doing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and sold to be
primarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp network
of any scale that did not require GPS.

  

  
  I'd be interested in further explanation on this topic. We have some 
Canopy pmp and haven't found the lack of GPS a problem. Granted we don't 
have a large amount of pmp, but I would certainly like to understand any 
future pain before we experience it.

-Matt

  



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RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Mike Bushard, Jr]

Well, so far as we can tell the only thing that can kill canopy, IS CANOPY.
We have put it up against WaveRider, Alvarion, and 802.11b. They all fell of
the face of the earth. 

We have 16 tower sites deployed, all 900Mhz and 2.4, over 1000 CPE and more
on the way. (I realize there are many people bigger than us.)

We use a mix of MTI Omni's, MTI or Tiltek 120deg Sectors (MTI for Horizontal
and Tiltek for Vertical) and integrated 60deg sectors (I really wish someone
would come out with a descent H-pol as I don't like the integrated antenna)
with 900. Cyclone Omni's or 120deg sectors on 2.4.

Here is what I have found with GPS Sourced Sync vs. Generate Sync:

If you want channel reuse you need GPS sourced sync.
If you have a tower more than 8 miles away, you need to use different
channels no matter what, even with GPS sourced sync you still have speed of
light issues from tower to tower.

Can you Generate sync and deploy multiple AP's in a given area, yes. You
just need to make sure you have Frequency separation. Does this mean I
recommend it, NO.

Also even with every site GPS Synced, you still can only put so many AP's in
a given area be for you need to go to a different polarity. At least we know
there will never be another 900Mhz based ISP in one of our towns.

Also on a side note, I have never found a problem with 2.4, it is 900 that
will give you problems, it just carries so far. If the noise floor was
lower, and Canopy could run at -90 we would have coverage for a long ways.
It seems like we can always pick up a AP at -80.

YMMV.

Mike Bushard, Jr
Wisper Wireless Solutions, LLC


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 5:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Patrick Leary wrote:
> I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp you are
> doing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and sold to be
> primarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp network
> of any scale that did not require GPS.
>
>   
I'd be interested in further explanation on this topic. We have some 
Canopy pmp and haven't found the lack of GPS a problem. Granted we don't 
have a large amount of pmp, but I would certainly like to understand any 
future pain before we experience it.

-Matt

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RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Gino A. Villarini]

C'mon Patrick .. GPS is not a must on Canopy, I have half of my pops without
it ... I don't really like when people make statements like this, you sound
like you have years of hands on Canopy experience... 
 

Gino A. Villarini
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Aeronet Wireless Broadband Corp.
tel  787.273.4143   fax   787.273.4145
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 3:17 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Jon,

Why is that the case? You really think GPS on Canopy is some cool
feature? Canopy must have GPS to function. Without it, it kills itself.
It is all to prevent self-inflicted interference (remember, Canopy does
not even have ATPC) and to allow for channel re-use. Other systems, like
VL, do not need it. It provides far more capacity than Canopy, so it
does not need to re-use channels and with basic channel planning you
don't have issues with self-interference.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:20 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

My problem with VL is that it doesn't offer a scheduled mac...no 
syncronization capability. Now if this get's incorporated down the line 
I would be interested? We've used it all, you name it, and at this point

if it doesn't have GPS sync I'm hesitant to even touch it. That is one 
advantage that WIMAX will be bringing...

Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Patrick Leary wrote:

>I have a very interesting new (this month) pdf about this topic that
>compares Canopy Advantage and BreezeACCESS VL in a variety of ways,
from
>a coverage modeling example using high end propagation software to VoIP
>stats using company documents from both companies. 
>
>We think it makes a clear case for BreezeACCESS VL, far beyond the
>simple front end cost discussions. 
>
>It is 189k in size and would be great fodder for discussion here. If
you
>want a copy, e-mail me offlist.
>
>Patrick Leary
>AVP WISP Markets
>Alvarion, Inc.
>o: 650.314.2628
>c: 760.580.0080
>Vonage: 650.641.1243
>

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RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Patrick Leary]

For sure I am no expert there. Plenty of skilled Canopy users here and I
believe to a WISP here each one that is scaled uses the GPS sync. I
leave it to them to chime in. Some already have, like Jon L., Rick S.,
Gino, & Mike B.

I just know we get no requests for it from VL users an there would be
little benefit. The system simply does not require it. I mean, we only
need 3 sectors of 20MHz to net out over 90mbps of capacity. And then
there is the 10MHz channel options. So there are plenty of channels to
work with. Also, our system uses an intelligent ATPC and cell distance
learning so the gear isn't driving power beyond what it needs to sustain
links at whatever mod level the operator selects.

Patrick

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 3:07 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Patrick Leary wrote:
> I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp you are
> doing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and sold to
be
> primarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp
network
> of any scale that did not require GPS.
>
>   
I'd be interested in further explanation on this topic. We have some 
Canopy pmp and haven't found the lack of GPS a problem. Granted we don't

have a large amount of pmp, but I would certainly like to understand any

future pain before we experience it.

-Matt

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Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Matt Liotta]

Patrick Leary wrote:

I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp you are
doing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and sold to be
primarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp network
of any scale that did not require GPS.

  
I'd be interested in further explanation on this topic. We have some 
Canopy pmp and haven't found the lack of GPS a problem. Granted we don't 
have a large amount of pmp, but I would certainly like to understand any 
future pain before we experience it.


-Matt

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RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Patrick Leary]

I'm speaking about multipoint matt, not ptp. The dedicated ptp you are
doing is by far the exception. Canopy is designed, built, and sold to be
primarily a pmp system. I've never met or heard of a Canopy pmp network
of any scale that did not require GPS.

If I am wrong, I am happy to eat crow.

Patrick 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Matt Liotta
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 1:01 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Patrick Leary wrote:
> Why is that the case? You really think GPS on Canopy is some cool
> feature? Canopy must have GPS to function. Without it, it kills
itself.
> It is all to prevent self-inflicted interference (remember, Canopy
does
> not even have ATPC) and to allow for channel re-use. Other systems,
like
> VL, do not need it. It provides far more capacity than Canopy, so it
> does not need to re-use channels and with basic channel planning you
> don't have issues with self-interference.
>
>   
This thread is really turning into a mess. The above statement is simply

wrong. We operate a number of Canopy base stations without GPS. In fact,

for all the Canopy radios we own we only have two CMMs. Mostly because 
the CMM doesn't fit in well with our network. Regardless, Canopy does 
not need GPS to function.

-Matt
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Re: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Matt Liotta]

Patrick Leary wrote:

Why is that the case? You really think GPS on Canopy is some cool
feature? Canopy must have GPS to function. Without it, it kills itself.
It is all to prevent self-inflicted interference (remember, Canopy does
not even have ATPC) and to allow for channel re-use. Other systems, like
VL, do not need it. It provides far more capacity than Canopy, so it
does not need to re-use channels and with basic channel planning you
don't have issues with self-interference.

  
This thread is really turning into a mess. The above statement is simply 
wrong. We operate a number of Canopy base stations without GPS. In fact, 
for all the Canopy radios we own we only have two CMMs. Mostly because 
the CMM doesn't fit in well with our network. Regardless, Canopy does 
not need GPS to function.


-Matt
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RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Rick Smith]

channel planning.  hah!  as if everyone worked nicely together.

I rather like Canopy with its GPS.  It makes it a competition killer. :)
And yes, even Alvarion EQ can't handle it...

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Patrick Leary
Sent: Monday, September 25, 2006 3:17 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

Jon,

Why is that the case? You really think GPS on Canopy is some cool feature?
Canopy must have GPS to function. Without it, it kills itself.
It is all to prevent self-inflicted interference (remember, Canopy does not
even have ATPC) and to allow for channel re-use. Other systems, like VL, do
not need it. It provides far more capacity than Canopy, so it does not need
to re-use channels and with basic channel planning you don't have issues
with self-interference.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:20 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

My problem with VL is that it doesn't offer a scheduled mac...no
syncronization capability. Now if this get's incorporated down the line I
would be interested? We've used it all, you name it, and at this point

if it doesn't have GPS sync I'm hesitant to even touch it. That is one
advantage that WIMAX will be bringing...

Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Patrick Leary wrote:

>I have a very interesting new (this month) pdf about this topic that 
>compares Canopy Advantage and BreezeACCESS VL in a variety of ways,
from
>a coverage modeling example using high end propagation software to VoIP 
>stats using company documents from both companies.
>
>We think it makes a clear case for BreezeACCESS VL, far beyond the 
>simple front end cost discussions.
>
>It is 189k in size and would be great fodder for discussion here. If
you
>want a copy, e-mail me offlist.
>
>Patrick Leary
>AVP WISP Markets
>Alvarion, Inc.
>o: 650.314.2628
>c: 760.580.0080
>Vonage: 650.641.1243
>

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RE: [WISPA] vendor specs -- Jon

[Patrick Leary]

Jon,

Why is that the case? You really think GPS on Canopy is some cool
feature? Canopy must have GPS to function. Without it, it kills itself.
It is all to prevent self-inflicted interference (remember, Canopy does
not even have ATPC) and to allow for channel re-use. Other systems, like
VL, do not need it. It provides far more capacity than Canopy, so it
does not need to re-use channels and with basic channel planning you
don't have issues with self-interference.

Patrick Leary
AVP WISP Markets
Alvarion, Inc.
o: 650.314.2628
c: 760.580.0080
Vonage: 650.641.1243

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of Jon Langeler
Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 9:20 PM
To: WISPA General List
Subject: Re: [WISPA] vendor specs

My problem with VL is that it doesn't offer a scheduled mac...no 
syncronization capability. Now if this get's incorporated down the line 
I would be interested? We've used it all, you name it, and at this point

if it doesn't have GPS sync I'm hesitant to even touch it. That is one 
advantage that WIMAX will be bringing...

Jon Langeler
Michwave Tech.

Patrick Leary wrote:

>I have a very interesting new (this month) pdf about this topic that
>compares Canopy Advantage and BreezeACCESS VL in a variety of ways,
from
>a coverage modeling example using high end propagation software to VoIP
>stats using company documents from both companies. 
>
>We think it makes a clear case for BreezeACCESS VL, far beyond the
>simple front end cost discussions. 
>
>It is 189k in size and would be great fodder for discussion here. If
you
>want a copy, e-mail me offlist.
>
>Patrick Leary
>AVP WISP Markets
>Alvarion, Inc.
>o: 650.314.2628
>c: 760.580.0080
>Vonage: 650.641.1243
>

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